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Dear weshammer, I've been a fan of your content for a long time, and I am well aware of how valuable your time is and I know this is probably really annoying but I thought that I'd give it a shot I'm not sure if have watched the amazing TH-cam series "what if the emperor had a text to speech device" but I thought you'd be a big fan the premise is the adaptest mechanics have a text to speech device from ancient Terra and have used it on the emperor of mankind now the emperor is back and trying to fix all the problems with the Imperium it is a amazing show and I and many others would love to see you review it again sorry for being annoying your Loyally -sir multiverse (PS sorry for any spelling mistakes I'm Dislaxic)
@@sirmultiverse5896 oh I am a big fan! Ive watched the whole thing and was heart broken when it ended. Alfabasa seems happy making his new series tho and that's what really matters :)
Tbh, Leman Russ's journey if he returns now reminds me of Odin's tale. Odin sacrificed his eye to learn of the runes and how fate works, wandered far and wide for wisdom and mingled with mortal men to learn of their plight. When he returned to Valhalla as the one eyed king, he was wise, almost all-knowing and more powerful then ever. If they did something similar to Russ, then He'd could return as a rival or loyal mirror image of what Magnus is.
Let's be fair to the story tellers. 40k was written first and then 30k was written after by several writers with differing levels of familiarity with the setting. The Horus Heresy was setup by GW on the fly with a very limited outline. That's why several of the books contradict each other. Some of the bad writing can be drawn up to the fact that the Sons of Horus (Black Legion) were called the Lunar Wolves. Russ is the Emperor's Executioner and many writers made Russ flat due to the differing views of the Emperor in the Horus Heresy novels.
What I would like to happen is for Russ to come back, with only his right eye, allowing him to Mirror Magnus completely. Seeing as we're getting big old psyker buffs on a lot of characters are getting, maybe Russ could have claimed Magnus'' actual eye from Tzeentch, or something
The transformation happened in the immediate aftermath of Prospero, when the Space Wolves were corned by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. It's in a short story collection called "The Burden of Loyalty". Russ felt horrible for killing Magnus, admitted that he was wrong...which was a huge blow to his pride...to throw salt in the wound, the entire 6th Legion would have perished without the intervention of the Dark Angels, another Legion they had beef with. The story itself was called "The Wolf King" and written by Chris Wraight. He's by far the best writer for Space Wolves. He also handles the White Scars great. Really understands the "noble savage" mentality of the 5th and 6th Legion. Also, read "Wolfsbane". It didn't take 10,000 years for the Space Wolves to learn from their mistakes. Russ recognized his failing and made sure he corrected it.
Leman Russ actually had an arc in the Heresy, probably one of the only detailed and positive arcs among the loyalist Primarchs. A shame most people never get to appreciate it.
Perfectly said. Dont know how the creator missed this plot point. Russ letting himself be stabbed by the Lion underscores this point at the end of the HH...the symbolic 'death' of old, blowhard Russ. The arc of the SW is what is most interesting to me. You start off rolling your eyes at them, but they clear have several moments of reflection (in 30k) which shows the "I recognise me failing and will be sure to correct it" in direct action.
@@drewmikhael31 usually people who miss the plot of 30k Space Wolves are blinded by "awww, poor Magnus did nothing wrong/Leman Russ is just a big meanie" sentiment. Glad someone else sees the truth! Also liked your take on Russ letting the Lion stab him.
The change technically began during the Heresy itself during events after the Burning of Prospero when Russ himself began to doubt his role as the Emperor's Executioner. It's pretty much spelled out in the audio drama Wolf's Claw then followed that up with the novel Vengeful Spirit and then the novel Wolfsbane here Russ openly disagreed with the Emperor's decisions and for also letting himself be manipulated by Horus into destroying the Thousand Sons and the world of Prospero. While the Horus Heresy's beginnings showed the Wolves at their worst (thought it seemed that their role as the Emperor's Executioners fit them at the time) as the Heresy progressed we get to see how the Burning of Prospero and the events afterwards would help pivot the Wolves to be less Executioners and more Protectors of the Imperium.
@@dumbidea1007 True, but I still think Russ' thinking was becoming less Executioner and more wanting to do things his way instead of just what the Emperor told him to do. I also think that the one person that impacted Russ' thinking ended up being left behind to lead the Chapter while Russ and his veterans left for the Eye of Terror to find the Tree of Life: Bjorn the Fell-Handed. Bjorn probably had a huge impact in moving The Rout to becoming less murder-make executioners to more of the 40k Wolves we know now.
@@Tullaryx "Wanting to do things his way instead of just what the Emperor told him to do." Isn't thinking he knew better than the Emperor, like... the whole reason you guys criticize Magnus so much?
@@peterlepper5199disagreeing with people doesn't necessarily mean thinking you know better than them. It all depends on if you're arrogant enough to think that way. Otherwise you just do stuff the way you feel comfortable doing them and aren't a sucker that follows every order to the letter
Thanks for taking the time to type out the full explanation for those who haven’t read all the source materiel. The Horus Heresy is a prequel for a reason, people…it’s supposed to show how the legions change over time!
Wes did at least say they were “tasteful” death threats but dude, you really need to do something else with your time. May I suggest crochet? It’s my go-to when I start thinking of sending death threats!
The Space Wolves are the army that regularly I play the TT game with. They aren't the legion I would have picked right off the bat, but one of my best friends passed away and he bequeathed his massive 5k point army to me and 85% of it was comprised of Space Wolves, with the rest being Sororitas and Sisters of Silence. He also left me a 2k point Custodes army and a troupe of Harlequins, but he hadn't painted them yet. All that said, I play the Space Wolves proudly at any opportunity, because it's my tribute to my friend who loved that legion, and now I do too. I've even updated them with new tanks, Dreadnaughts, Primaris, Knights, and even a Warhound, with banners to his memory. So while I would have preferred Dark Angels, White Scars, Salamanders, or even Ultramarines (I began liking them a lot more after RG came back). The shaggy Vikings are my guys, and I have great love for them.
Leman was the reason the space wolves implemented change. He realized he can be more than his father’s weapon and didn’t want another Prospero to happen.
Russ himself implemented the change after Prospero. He had a change of heart later in the novels, and vowed to never be the cause of something like that again. He couldn't even land the killing blow on Horus when he had the chance to kill him because of it
I know a lot of people have already written this, but a big appeal of the Wolves is how much they change between 30k and 40k. Because you're right. In 30k, the Space Wolves are little more than bullies and butchers who serve a demagogue leader, and they revel in their unhinged actions. Prospero might be the biggest example of their thoughtless violence, but its only one of countless times the Space Wolves act this way. But here's the thing - Prospero wasn't a victory. It was an abject failure on the part of the Wolves and especially Leman Russ. Because of Prospero, the Thousand Sons fully fell to Tzeentch, and the Wolves would never make it to Terra to fight in the Siege. Russ did try to communicate with Magnus prior to the Burning, but even with Magnus not responding to his hails to talk about the situation, Russ' impatience and lack of critical thinking led to a situation that was far, far worse than if he had just questioned an order. People talk about how the Wolves loyalty is their biggest strength, but it's also one of their greatest weaknesses when it's turned against them. And that's why they realized they needed to change. They couldn't just be a weapon, they needed to live up to the heroic aspirations that, for the majority of the Heresy and Great Crusade, they were just pretending to. Even Leman Russ, the biggest bully of them all, saw how his unquestioning loyalty to the Emperor and willingness to committ atrocities caused more harm than good and left his legion to make it right. Of course, his definition of "make it right" was to enter the warp and find mythical seeds to revitalize the very demagogue who turned him into a weapon, so it's not great, but it's something. Ultimatley, for a chapter that desparately wants to color itself in the shades of it's successes, they're defined by their failures. Their failure to self-reflect, their failure to question orders, and their failure to think past personal glory. It's why the Space Wolves of 40k are so much more empathetic (for Space Marines, that is) and willing to push back against what they feel is wrong. That's some serious character development, and it's why I like them so much. This is largely a ramble post, but I wanted to add my 2 cents. Great video, btw.
I really like how the Space Wolves have the most liberty in the imperium of all chapters and how they openly defy decisions that would be basically common sense among other astartes, like the Codex for example. For me they are as much a force of the future as the ultramarines are, each of them representing an aspect of what the Imperium will need in times of peace (if there would ever be one lol).
To be fair to Russ, the Emperor ordering a full genocide including one of his legions is kinda in character after the destruction of Khur and Monarchia
And to add further. The 2 ''Lost Legions'' must have been Big E's decision aswell, so it aint too crazy to get an order or purging, and if we want our tinfoil hats on, Russ and his Legion might aswell had been part of that too
@@Onkoloinen And he'd held a vote with the Primarchs over whether to Un-exist Lorgar before Monarchia too. So the idea he'd do it again after Magnus defied his explicit instruction to not use magic (plus Russ's hate for magic), understandable why he didn't doubt it
On Khur and in monarchia itself all of the civilians were allowed to leave. Only the city was torn down. The emperor is not heartless to the civilians of the imperium. It is the imperium of man and that is stressed multiple times. The emperor is building it for humanity.
14:53 I’m a huge fan of Brother Hendrickson from the Ghazkhull book. He’s a runepriest who’s part of an Inquisitors entourage. Dude’s actually pretty chill with loyalist psychers even tutors Cassandra (the only known Ogren psycher to exist)
@@mrblack5145 oh its absolutely heresy, and that is why she was executed immediately after the battle her powers manifested... any and all doubts or concerns about the validity of her execution should be referred to the office of Inquisitor Titonnida Falx
The wolves are used as plot devices more than they are actual characters with nuance. They aren't the only chapter that gets this treatment, just the most abundant.
Nah that still goes to the ultra smurfs, just like the space wolves they do have stand out characters but most of them are just card board cut out stereo types
@@Argosh I mean, that comes a little with the "Space Viking" backdrop for them. Would actually be interesting to see a writer who has some deep knowledge of Norse myth and history take a crack at the Wolves, come to think of it.
I personally love the entire history of the wolves, and like you, I myself despise the 30K rendition of them but I also love the evolutionary progression they show in 40K. All in all, my space wolves are always going to be a personal favorite for many reasons, but also, a great window of wisdom to remember that even the worse can change if given enough time
40K Space Wolves are total bros that are one of the most noble bright elements of the setting, and have been since 2nd edition. How Black Library managed to balls up their 30K lore so badly is beyond me.
As a die-hard Space Wolves fan, it´s been a joy watching this video. I believe most of the hatred towards Space Wolves comes from a place of superficial knowledge, I´m really glad you dug deep on their lore. I live in constant fear that this hatred will make GW slowly make the wolves disappear as a main faction, I only wish they step up and just do something important about them. The one part I disagree with is your view on Leman Russ, I find him quite judgmental about himself when alone with his thoughts, even if he doesn´t show it outwardly so clearly (which makes sense, as a wolf he shouldn´t show weakness). He regrets so much of what he´s done, and even when invading Prospero he pretty much begs Magnus to surrender before landing on the planet, I believe he may hate him but he didn´t want to go down the road of full blown invasion. He loves and hates deeply, and all the emotions in between, he´s so full of errors, I find other primarchs too perfect in their own way (for good or bad) I find Russ one of the most human primarchs. By the end of the Heresy he realizes he has been a brainless automata, following orders blindly, and he pledges to follow his conscious more from then on. He has a really good character growth in my opinion, from feisty lad to a wiser man. I´m expecting him to return in an Odin like figure as you mention, but would be fine with him returning as a mad wulfen-like primarch, both ideas sound good to me. For the wolves as a legion, I just absolutely love their "fu*k you" mentality. Am I gonna die for not following your orders? May we all end in this? Who cares. That makes them incredibly dangerous for any foe, they´ve survived Fenris, isn´t gonna get any worse than that. That "fu*k you" mentality goes so deep that not even the chaos gods can take them, the wolves are some of the most chaos resistant chapters, with very few of their astartes falling to chaos. For such a violent chapter, their code of honour is incredible. This ties in perfectly with that other side of their personality, their lust for life and love of partying. This may be their last night alive, why not have a great last one? Not to mention Logan Grimnar is one of the most charismatic and loveable space marines there are, he will have a beer with you and laugh his ass off but when shit hits the fan he turns into this unstoppable force of nature, and as you mention he lives and dies by his beliefs, part of those being that they are there to protect humanity, something that many other legions have forgotten, which once again creates this beautiful paradox making the violent, bloood thirsty wolves into one of the most humanitarian legions in 40k. "We may be few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains one of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope." Ragnar Blackmane Long live the Vlka Fenryka!
Russ is an interesting character when you get to see inside his head. He plays a lot of mind games, and uses his image as a "Barbarian Lout" to make people underestimate him, even among his brothers. He boasts and swaggers, cause he's playing into an expectation, and then when people often least expect they learn how quickly he can take that mask off when it suits him. Really hoping we get to see him make a return to the 40K era sometime soon, as I want to see how his journey in the Warp will have changed him.
@@maxgehtdnixan4913 yeah can't fight that logic, you've completely demolished my point, and in such an original way! Now go look up the meaning of the blood angels names from latin and start commenting bloodbloodblood on all their videos, that way no one will ever be able to raise any other points as that's clearly the most important thing!
@@carlosanton6048 Hey, I liked 'em when they were space vikings, but later codexes really went ham on the wolf theme to an unreasonable degree. It's what caused the terrible writing in 30k in the first place. 3rd edition was bearable, everything after just went completely schlock.
If you haven’t heard it yet, listen to “the parting of the ways” audio drama. It’s about Bjorn the fellhanded’s transition to great wolf, dreadnought, and Russ’ departure, but also kinda speaks about the change of the legion after prospero, and most importantly, leman. It’s not much, but it’s a little insight. I’m a huge fan of space wolves but I get it, they were monsters in 30k.
This is why I like the Space Wolves. They start out as possibly the most disliked out of all the legions. Their status as one of the trefoil legions, problems with their gene seed, the character of their recruits, the way that they fought and the general distain they had for the baseline humans they fought alongside. This was on top of their job as the legion who were used to keep other legions in line and having Russ as their primarch. Fast forward to 40K and they're generally viewed as one of the chapters that are the most sympathetic to the general population of the Imperium. Their 'redemption' is a lot longer and more painful than some of the loyalist legions which were pretty much just boils down to 'and then their primarch was found'.
The wolf story arc of being a brash young group that make stupid decisions that’s tempered by age and experience is there story arc that happens with Bloodclaw‘s going to gray hunters going to long fangs and it’s it’s the story of the legions as well. They made horrible mistakes and 30 K and overtime they were tempered.
Thing is with the Space Wolves doing an about face on mutants, they were *their* mutants. And on protecting civilians at Armageddon and the Great Shame, I think it was probably not the Grey Knights being humble, I think it was in reference to Prospero and the shame felt there which caused the Wolves to stand up to try to make amends
i think it's a bit of both here. It's like the jock who bullied the nerd and found out laterwhen they matured and leveled out that what they did was super messed up and wrong; and tries to fix it by standing up to bullies in the future. I have a sucessor chapter of space wolves known as The Hellhounds; founded in the 21st founding and were made with a splice of space wolf and salamanders. They have a ashen grey skin and burning orange eyes, and their hair is the color of smoke and fire; and their blood even boils and glows a firey orange color like molten steel. The Hellhounds are known to save as many civillians as possible and take on more than their share of aspirants and auxilury forces into their ranks; while their chapter is only 1,000 marines, they have a small army of over 500,000 aspiriants, and auxilury forces backing them up.
@@dungeonlessdm6914 How do you mean you have chapter of space wolves? Have you used some warp fuckery to tp to WH universe, mantled the Emperor, cured the SW furry problem and created a physic defying mutant chapter? That's impressive.
The grey knights definitely did not agree with the months of shame. They were following orders from the inquisition. A small group of grey knights even discussed killing the lord inquisitor while it was escalating out of control.
Some of the first warhammer fiction I read was the original Space Wolves trilogy, but as I delved deeper into 30k lore and such I was flabbergasted how completely different their portrayl was.
Considering Russ actually had a spear, having him return as a badass space Odin would be very on point (hell, the spear's actual name is Gungir, very similar to Odin's spear, Gungnir). It would also be a symbol of character growth in and of itself, since he hated the spear in 30k. And besides, it would also fit with the loyalist primarchs' weaponry, since it is a weapon of The Emperor.
I dunno. Wouldn't inquisition just muster a whole ass armada and exterminatus the shit out of Fenris afterwards? Like Wes said, it's the question of authority.
0:26 "Tasteful death threat or two" Idk why that made me laugh so hard bro, the just casual way you mention it has this "NO FUCKS GIVEN" Vibe and I love it.
Also, the entire changing of the legion started with Leman, they were even more feral before he joined and it was his desire for the legion to change from their 30k versions. His arc was always going towards a wiser and introspective character. But my fears are now that the Lion came back the same way Russ may not be able to do so to not have redundant characters.
@@szymonkalinski3014 Yet he cant understand that in 30k psykers were forbidden, if not the wolves someone else would do the same thing, imagine sisters and custodes dropping in, the world would be fucked beyond comprehension.
This bias against Russ is ridiculous he didn’t even want to invade Prospero he practically begged Magnus to talk and return to Terra peacefully but the message never got through. While in the alexus nebula fighting Alpharius Russ vowed with Bjorn that he would change the Space Wolves for the better and never blindly willingly follow orders refusing to be just a Executioner. Russ caused the change for the 30k Wolves and Bjorn ensured his dream would last after his disappearance into the warp.
Yea Bjorns arc during the Heresy was great there’s alot of rumors going around that Russ is the next returning Primarch so i cant wait for him nd Bjorn to reunite in 40k.
@@wolflordgio6320 I mean they don't really have many other choices. Out of the 9 loyal primarchs, 2 have returned (Lion and Robot), 2 are VERY dead (Iron hand of the iron hands and Sanguinius). That leaves 5. Vulkan will return once the salamanders finally collect all the exodia pieces. Corvus is stuck in the warp, torturing Lorgar. Speedy mcspeed is having the biggest orgy in the webway with some eldar. Dorn is all but confirmed dead. That leaves Russ :) Sure he's sort of stuck in the warp too as far as we know. But he could return as a wise Odin like character. Would be cool!
Calling anyone else the worst primarch when drooling angry boy exists is a bokd statement. OH BUT HIS STORY IS TRAGIC. Yeah well that's his past I get it he gets that excuse doesn't change the fact I hate every second he's in a story because he's just an annoying angry sad douche.
@ravenmckay-croswell1980 tell me which loyalist primarch is worse than Johnson? Almost gets Guilliman killed by Kurze by not telling him he was on his ship, gives Perterabo the most powerful siege weapons as a bribe to get him to vote for the lion as the new warmaster, kills one of his most loyal sons for questioning his breaking of the edict of nykea, sends away his oldest friend and a bunch of other dark angels without telling them why creating a massive rift in his own legion, spends years destroying the traitor home world's instead of trying to get to Terra as quickly as possible to help with the Siege. Literally, the only thing 30k Johnson is good at is fighting. It's a very close race to the bottom between russ and johnson for the worst loyalist primarch of the Horus heresy era.
@ravenmckay-croswell1980 oh I also forgot that Johnson is responsible for the tyranids too. If it weren't for him chasing down rumors of kurze he would have been able to protect the pharos device and it wouldn't have blown up attracting the nids.
I highly recommend “Ashes of Prospero” where Njal Stormcaller travels to Prospero to save the 13th Great company from that portal thing they went into, as it is timey-wimey 13th is still around. Obviously it contains a clash of old and new, but also he is being guided to them by a spirit of a dead thousand sons’ sorcerer from heresy.
It could be argued them defending the Wulfen is another example of their hypocrisy, condeming other mutants except their own. But anyway, some Space Wolves books I reccomend are: Lukas the Trickster, a humorous character focussed story with some deep analysis on the purpose of a Space Marine and their relationship with normal humans (as in why they should protect them, and if Space Marines should think themselves more important than they are). Ashes of Prospero, has the wolves return to Prospero in current day and has them come to terms of what they did back during the Heresy. Wolfsbane, a 30k story with Leman Russ yes, but I also see it as the point the Wolves started making a turn for the better as Leman shows great character development and regret on his actions on Prospero and indeed has him reconsidering his role in the Imperium.
I definitely prefer the 40K version of the Space Wolves over the 30K version. Even the Primaris Marines of the Wolves line that appear in the unnumbered sons, like Biarne in the first Dark Imperium book who was in the unnumbered sons with Captain Felix, he's so fiercely loyal to his Primaris brothers, whether they're Blood Angels, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists.
Space wolves: we will never accept primaris marines! One prime boi: yall are jerks. I'm gonna run into the woods for a few months. Bye. Space wolves: *wiping tears from eye * my boy!
Dude, in the Ragnar Blackmane trilogy , there is a part of book, where wolf lord Ragnar talks down wulfen possessed marine (maybe even physically changing him back).
The wolves of Fenris are a solid chapter, and I’d like to think that the growth from the heresy to current time shows the growth of the chapter. Still my second if not third favorite chapter. Keep up the awesome work!
Wolfsbane is a really good HH book and a look into Russ and how he's still totally messed up from Prospero and also how the man dumbly sacrafices like 80% of his legion. I think this is more or less the catalist that starts to change the cultrue of themselves.
I liked the Space Wolves in the book The Burning of Prospero. The Rune Priest in it was self aware, fully knowing he was a psyker, and he'd come to terms with that. He just claimed he knew where the line he couldn't cross was.
Actually makes me hate them more. Sure, they were on the right side. But they had PURE Gary Stu energy about it. They just win, and don't suffer any real consequences for it at all. None. Grimnar insta-wins against a Grey Knights grandmaster? Before the guy can draw his blades? Come on.
@@BenHyle Well, they lost thousands of Astartes and many ships. But for Grimnar, he is the LOGAN GRIMNAR after all, the other was just a chapter master.
Not even a space wolves fan but.. Oh noez someone killed a GREY KNIGHT!! As if Logan is not one of the Imperiums greatest legends himself. Grey knights are beasts but not immortal
It would be fun to see Russ come back all mature and sage.......but I also would want that moment where he just goes off and we see the full unfettered violence of the 30K wolves.......just pointed in the right direction this time.
If it helps, the Wolves hstarted to have a turning point in their character during the Horus Heresy, pretty early on and just after the Burning of Prospero. It was around when the novel Scars was set. Leman's fleet and legion were wounded and being harried by the Alpha Legion. He called on the White Scars for help, and Jhagathai sent back a message that read in-between the lines as "I just heard about Prospero, so...I think you might be Traitor. Good luck with the Alphas!" It made Leman have to take a good, long look in the mirror about acting as the ravening barbarian and the Emperor's executioner, and how it made his legion look and the condequences there.
I can imagine that the self reflection happened after the burning of prospero, and the lose of Russ. I feel the wolves need something that can give their insight
WORST PRIMARCH?!?!?!? HERESY! I just hope when Leman comes back (hopefully soon) he is in a similar position as The Lion was and is very repentant for the mistakes he made in the past.
He already was pretty much through out the heresy. Since and durning the burning of prospero he had begun to regret how he approached things. After failing to deliver the killing blow to Horus he had almost given up and resigned to die. And once he eventually got to Terra after the heresy finished… he was devastated and regretted his decisions. He already had his old man Lion moment and it was durning the heresy. I’m hoping for the opposite. I want the “brash”, big bro kick your ass Russ. Which would indicate that he got over what happened and hasn’t been wallowing in self pity for 10 thousand years.
@@Historyfrek4everI disagree lorgar was just not meant as a warrior he could have turned the peoples he converted into a bunch of alah huakbar moron like in 40k but he wanted to make little paradise instead. Hell him and guiliman are pretty much the real mvp as they are the ones that pretty much allow the emperium to survive until 40k Thanks to the divino levitatus.
@@dumbidea1007 As a person, as a speaker and propagandist he was par excellence. The man effectively caused the heresy and corruption of his brother’s so yes technically he was the most successful primarch even if he got instructions from the chaos gods. Great character, but a massive massive piece of shit.
I agree that the Heresy wolves are trash, but I'll argue the reason isn't because Russ is gone. The wolves are suffering from GW wanting to write the fall of Magnus and the Thousand Sons a tragedy. The wolves have to do horrible things because they are the antagonists of the TS story, but because they are still loyalist, GW has to make them look like heroes. So you get the narrative dissonance that Wes was talking about. Now that the Wolves are free from being antagonists in a very specific story they can be better, hence why the wolves of 40k have better stories and hopefully when Russ returns he'll get a similar treatment.
Awful book imo. Didn't make sense. Why were the wolves so angry at the Tsons? Russ felt shame. Why was Grimnar such a headstrong idiot? How could one rune priest out magic the entire Tsons legion? So dumb
One suggestion I would give you Wes for reading is Leman Russ's primarch novel. It shows him as more of a character than just king murder hobo. Also the Space Wolves audio collection from Audible is great. Especially the short story called parting of the ways. I will admit as a Space Wolves fan that GW has not handled their writing the best. Even in the Months of Shame story there are some shaky bits. Their Dawnfire novel was garbo too. I don't care what anyone else says it was shitty. However there are other good stories.
I only remember the 30k Space Wolves from a short story, in which a small platoon of them helped a planet rebel against dark eldar. It was a really great story.
The problem is that he still does it. Compounded with the rest of hypocrisy and Russ's history of being a jackass, it feels superficial. "I'm actually super deep and conflicted, but BRB gotta go obliterate Magnus's whole homeworld, ill actually question my orders later and take no accountability for how I caused this whole situation in the first place." is how it comes off to people. By the time he comes around, people have already mentally clocked out and don't want to read more Space Wolves content anymore.
Love your videos man. Helped me get into the 40k universe and all its greatness. 4 books, 3 video games, and a blood angel army built and I'm loving it all. Keep up the good work.
I wonder what will be interaction between Space Wolves and Leagues of Votann. I mean (space) vikings and (space) dwarves - there should be drinking competition!
26:50 "...he then does something that is unthinkable for a Space Wolf. He apologises." Very selective memory about the 30k Wolves right there. "I recognise my failing and will seek to correct it." (Paraphrasing) is a quote repeatedly used by the Wolves in 30k. Plus Magnus had his chance to defend himself and decided to lie before the council of Nikea and the Emperor. He had the chance to surrender himself before the invasion and he didn't, so all those dead civilians on Prospero are on his hands, not the Wolves. Big difference is: Wolves did what they were told, Magnus didn't.
The reason they got better was because of Prospero. Leman realized it was wrong and tried to reshape his legion to not be mindlessly loyal dogs that'll commit genocide because Big E said so. That's why he left Bjorn in charge, he knew Bjorn would succeed in reshaping the chapter in his absence
I think you judge Russ too harshly. One of the defining features of him is he is the most human of all the primarchs. He was really big on fraternity and loved all of his brothers, including Magnus. He didn’t blindly accept Horus’ orders. He wanted to try and talk to Magnus first. Magnus stupidly decided it was sad boi hours and shut communications off not only to Russ, but his children as well. Left with no other course of action they heeded Horus’ orders, knowing this was the third time they’ve had to destroy a legion.
The thousand sons despite being cautious and methodical were using Sorcery as stated in the proposal at the council to only use the librarius discipline as it would be later on called. Magnus was also keeping it a secret that him and a few more of his legion were in contact with otherworldly forces which led to their downfall like the use of their familiars aside from Magnus talking to Tzeentch.
Just wanted to let you know that after watching your vids for a few weeks I'm officially hooked just got my first two Horus Herresey books. Thanks! I really needed to explore a new verse!
I lost it at the camping joke XD I came into the video a little disturbed about the slander my Star Dogs were getting but I love your commentary so I reserved myself. Allowing said joke to make me spill my drink on the floor. You're awesome, brother!
They are pretty Viking , their armor though full with like wolf fur and teeth is more Ike Viking and Shaka style . The only thing that makes them wolf like is their gene. I remember a quote. That leman Russ is a human pretending to be a monster and that the lion is a monster pretending to be a human or something like that
Not controversial in any way shape or form among anyone, literally only gw needs to get their heads out their ass and listen to the people. the most common and agreed take ever in 40k
I like that they start as hypocritical assholes. I’ve always believed the reason for this was because Russ was raised by wolves he lacks basic communication skills and views the world like an alpha in a pack, I don’t believe he really fully grasps concepts like morality and that feeds into the legion. Then when he leaves he leaves his sons to Bjorn, but he does it in a weird way, a way that made sense to Russ but to us readers felt like he was abandoning his son for not being good enough. Bjorn, who was raised by men, then made it his eternal duty to make the sons of Russ into honorable warriors as his father would want and because Bjorn had the social skills and basic humanity Russ always seemed to lack he lead the legion to slowly but surely become what they are today. In all honestly Bjorn was just as much a father figure to the legion as Russ if not more. It’s honestly ironic in a way cause the robot rotting corpse lead the sons to be more human than the human like father figure that came before. Sorry this is a long comment, TLDR the wolves are a reflection of their alpha. Russ was less than human most of the time and Bjorn was more than human most of the time. Edit: I also want to address how Russ should come back. I WANT Russ to come back sooner rather than later, I think him being immune to the warp is the way to go because watching all his sons that he entered the warp with turning to beasts could bring him some humanity, plus coming back to a setting where he only has his 2 brothers and a handful of sons is exactly what he would need to finally appreciate the lives of those important to him.
I enjoyed the Blood of Asaheim series and seeing interactions the Sisters of Battle and later the Ecclesiarchy have with the Space Wolves and their history. Also liked The Wolftime from the Dawn of Fire series and how the Space Wolves dealt with the return of Guilliman.
The 30k Wolves argument wasn't against the use of psykers, it was against unrestricted and unmediated use of the warp. The Thousand Sons generally doing anything they could, just because they could, without any form of restraint, is what they were arguing against. They were making a "They are focused on whether they can do something. They never stop to ask if they should do something" argument. They weren't hypocrites, what they referred to as "sorcery" was behavior that they never participated in. In the end, Magnus proved Leman right... Magnus's hubris and lack of respect for the warp ended up ruining everything
Magnus should have just said. "We're not using psychic powers, we're just channeling the world spirit of Prospero!" While sticking a big red middle finger in Othere Wyrdmake's face.
All right, that one got me. Don't worry, it's the world spirit of prospero. My favorite thing is like hey your channeling fenriss or whatever but then why do I see you in the warp? Like you do know it's the same thing right?
dude... from a person who has never played the table top and up until 5 months ago had never dipped my toe into the 40k grim dark, your channel is incredible! you cover the most important points of the topic at hand, i consume your videos weekly if not daily, i even find myself using your videos as the standard when watching other creators on the platform that cover 40k. Fantastically informative and your take on characters and story lines from a personal point convey how passionate you are about this franchise!!! love the content, i would never be confident enough to play the game, to squeamish to read the content and not talented enough to artistically give life to a figurine, but.... your content is my vox unit in the 40k GRIM DARK!!! THAKNYOU!!!
The 40k Wolves have developed the way they are, *because* of the mistakes they made during the Heresy and 30k. They learned that while loyalty is the most important thing, where you place that loyalty and what you do for it matters far more. It's why they are now so self sacrificing. Why they protect civvies like the Salamanders. Why they could give two flying chaos warp farts about what the Inquisition thinks and says. They are upholding their father's will, and the will of the Emperor. *Humanity* itself comes first. They are his sword to destroy threats and the most loyal sword at that, but they are also a shield to protect his children. They *had* to be meh and so one dimensional in 30k, so they could learn, grow and become the Wolves we love in 40k. That's good writing. That's depth.
My introduction to Warhammer was a Space Wolf book I read over a decade ago that I at the time loved, but somehow I’m now walking the line between Plague Marine and Thousand Son😅
I only recently got into the tabletop aspect of The Hobby. My main love is nids, and my second was going to be Tau. However I've been reconsidering making my second army Thousand Sons. There lore is super cool, and they worship my favorite ruinous power. No idea how they function on the tabletop, but I mostly play as an extension of the lore.
@@jackfordansk4262 my guild mates on Warhammer Tacticus just convinced me to give tabletop a try. Was nervous about painting due to having my dominant hand amputated, but they gave me a ton of tricks and hacks. I love the Mortarion model, but army wise more than likely going Thousand Sons also. And yes, it’s the lore that’s trapped us all lol. They say it also saves money 3D printing.
@@champcpr Yeah, if you've got the money for a 3d printer, it's the way to go. I intend to get one at some point. I have a little adversity painting. Nowhere near to the same extent as yourself, but I just naturally have Shakey hands. But as long as your coats are thin, there's plenty of room for touch ups.
The entire story of Space Wolves is about growth. In 30k they were in many ways quite horrible people and Leman at the start had many flaws, but the big part of why I love Wolves and Russ more so than any other legion is their growth and journey. You see how regret over killing Magnus slowly eats away at Russ, how he is conflicted about his role and slowly grows to not only fix mistakes he has made, but also save his legion from destroying itself because of their practices. More so than anyone Russ genuinely changes and grows which can be seen to great extent in Wolfsbane or his Primarch novel which takes place both before and after the Heresy where both versions of the character are like 2 completely different people. But sadly... in this fanbase you are pretty much hated for just saying you like Space Wolves. Some people will be cool with it as long as you admit they are awful and you acknowledge they are awful because if you don't, you are a moron and a fanboy. I genuinely hate this fanbase at some points because being a Space Wolf fan and Leman Russ fan is damn miserable because of people like those who don't give a single shit about their lore and will treat people who do like them like they are worse kind of people.
Space Wolves brought me into the fandom, they'll always be my home chapter and the first army I built to "completion". You don't stand alone, brother! For Russ and the Allfather!
@@RavenAdventwings Look at the 40k subreddits for instance. You will see lots of people there hating on Wolves. Some people will go as far as to say Khan agreeing on something with Russ is "character assassination" and that Russ depiction from Prospero Burns is not canon and if you consider that book canon you are a moron and a fanboy. And on TH-cam it's bad too with lots of people who only know memes and read like "A Thousand Sons" and think this is entire character of Space Wolves. The worst part is that those youtubers who also share this "Russ and Wolves bad" mentality are also some of the most popular like Wes here or Majorkill. It's tiring because this only makes the haters all the stronger while me and many other Wolf fans feel miserable as large part of the fanbase seems to hate us.
Always loved the story about the SW defending the survivors of Armageddon, so based. Glad to hear they're cool with their Primaris too. Maybe Russ could come back a douche and The Lion could help him adapt and grow, and help heal the wound between the chapters, would make for a cool novel.
I am only at the 1:50 mark but I really wanted to text this so I don't forget. You could have cought the cold my camping. If it was cold or worse cold and rainy that could be why you got sick. I'm going to enjoy this video. Have a good rest of your day.
I was lit just about to type something similar, 90% of the time we have the flu but we are just I'm such good health we don't notice , as soon as we get too cold / lack of food etc the illness will win and take over
@@nameunavailable-gp3ot ya. Don't get down with that sickness. That would be disturbing, or at least I would be disturbed. (I hope you got the joke.) Have a good rest of your day.
Yeah what sold me as a kid when I first saw Space Wolves were "oooh space vikings!". Then I read about Logan Grimnar and how most of them give the middle finger to the inquisition 😂. How it felt so human despite them being turned into space marines ^^
I feel like David Annandale is a really underrated author for the black library. I love Curse of the Wolfen it made me appreciate the Space wolves, his Warden of the Blade was easily my favorite grey knights story, and Ephrael Stern Heretic Saint gave me a sisters story with something they desperately need, a unique character who is at odds with herself and a walking contradiction. (sisters tend to be the exact same character) Ephrael is my favorite sister after that novel. and i don't know how we haven't gotten a story of her and Celestine trading blows. (also it's weird how many space marines have a weird mutation/secret that they try and keep hidden from the inquisition. the space wolves, the blood angels, the black dragons, the raven guard ect.)
Wes's analysis is really cursory at best here. He's really missed the point entirely. It's not that the 6th had a problem with drawing upon the warp or even psychersat all. It's an issue on what you draw from it and where it comes from. As the Khan pointed out and the Emperor warned repeatedly, Magnus problem was that he had zero moderation and drew from the deep od the immaterum where all the nasty things dwell. The Scars and Wolves draw from the more elemental forces of the warp, which is far closer to the surface if you will and much closer to shamanism that sorcery. The difference is that shamans harnes and direct these elemental forces while the practice of sorcery is the binding twisting and breaking of these forces to fulfill their will. Shamans exist in relative harmony with these elemental forces while sorcerers bind and twist entities, namely Tutularies, to do their bidding. This fact, like it or not, makes all the difference in the world whether he wishes to see it or not.
"Laws are made for thee, but not for me, " said every nobleman, bishop, merchant-baron, corporation, and politician ever. You want hypocrisy, there it is in truckloads. "If a crime results in a fine, it is only a crime for those without wealth." And everyone one of those wealthy ones ever born has been an archcriminal. Look for yourself. As for Russ, I think we're good. If TTS is anything to reckon by (and it *is,* Alfabusa is a massive and clever lore-nerd) the Ulf-King has spent the last several millenia in the Warp chopping on monsters, distilling whiskey out of demon guts, and ruminating on his failures. He's got a *beard!* And it's gray! He also hates his life. So yeah, I think he's grown up a bit.
In Russ's defense, why wouldnt he have believed Horus at that point in time? People like to say he just did it because he wanted to, but Russ was the furst primarch found after Horus, and everyone loved Horus, why would Russ doubt the man who is basically his big brother? And in Prosphero Burns we do see Russ tried to talk to Magnus through what he believed was a psychicly linked spy, and he said he wanted to show him mercy, to not have to be the executioner.
The books about Ragnar Blackmane are good and very enjoyable to read. I personally like Space Wolves their wolf - theme armor and savage combat style and mostly bc they don't give a sh*t about inquisition and they care about civilians ( like Salamanders ). They also drink beer :)
There is an amazing audio drama, whose title escapes me, where we hear about the Wolves' primarch departing never to return, and the emotional speech given before he set out, about what he saw in the Space Wolves and their shortcomings, and I found it to be very powerful, and perhaps was indeed a great turning point for at least some of them in the matter of their ethics and such.
@@forcefulstorm6187 just look at our history and ponder which has been more like us when armies go to war: valiantly protecting the innocent at all costs (40k example), or butchering civilians in the name of any suitable excuse (30k example). Sadly it’s the latter.
I love Space Wolves in both times. Perhaps because I started with an early codex and the Ragnar Blackmane books (Great books btw, especially the start of going from a boy to a space marine, going through battles with your new brothers, and going to Terra itself to help a Navigator house). The whole core of vikings who were good enough to go to valhalla only to find out that they get to continue their story but in a much greater arena. Combined with the wild and pack oriented nature of a wolf. Makes for people who only care about themselves and those close to them and respect only those who have earned their place in stories. As a Chapter they barely consider themselves part of the Imperium. They are more of a warhost whose leader has bent the knee out of respect to the Emperor and now they get to fight in all the battles they wish. I also like their geneflaw protecting them from Chaos, as it basically makes any corruption likely to manifest the wolf part. Making their mutation more manageable.
Something people also miss about the Space Wolves, is they are the only legion to remain unbroken for 10,000 years. Until Guilliman's return, they had no successors. Russ agreed to let his legion operate under "Great Companies" instead, but that was already how it operated. For them, nothing changed when the legions were broken during the Second Founding. They are a full legion still. Edit: The Space Wolves do indeed suffer from some bad writing, but I try not to hold that against them, since it's something that is more of a writer issue than a faction issue. It's kind of like how the Ultramarines are actually cool, but Matt Ward's books and GW marketing give them a bad rep they kind of don't deserve. Same thing with the Dark Angels; leaving a battle mid fight to chase Fallen is dumb, but the callback to actual inquisitions into British knights is super cool, it just gets handled poorly.
I'm definitely a fan of the Wolves and wait for the return of Russ. After Lion El'Johnson's return and seeing how he has changed. It gives me hope that Russ will be a greater figure for the Space Wolves.
To be fair, I get the impression that leman russ and the wolves did not hate magnus and the thousand sons purely because they were psykers, he hated them because he believed they were using warp sorcery, and in fact they TOTALLY were. Theres a stark difference between the elemental power used by the runepriests , and the unrestrained sorcery that the thousand sons were getting into, I mean they literally had daemon familiars (tutelaries) following them around all the time pre-heresy. I think prospero burns really changed my outlook on the space wolves, I always just thought they were viking meatheads and that russ was a narcissistic asshole, but after reading that book, they are definitely more complex, and it seems to me russ is putting on an act as the "barbarian king", there's alot more going on with him than most give him credit for. Also, nobody ever mentions that russ basically begged Magnus to surrender before the battle of prospero, but the message never got through.
Ironically, I've never read of the 30k wolves, only the 40k ones and I'm still firmly in camp "Magnus was right about at least ONE thing", because I just can not stand what utter mary sues the wolves are. Not in the sense that they never lose, but how they seem to be the specialest of little boys, last in a long line of special little boys. They get to straight up ignore the codex, not even bend it like the templars or dark angels, just straight up tell it to fuck off. They get to tell the inquisition to fuck off. They get to tell the mechanicus to fuck off. They get to tell the grey knights to fuck off. They've got their super special unique psykers and their super special unique mounts and their super special unique formations and more variants and custom-made versions of their equipment than even the Salamanders (who make their own shit). And let's not forget the worst offender - Logan Grimnarr. Humans get corrupted by chaos weapons. Space marines get corrupted by chaos weapons. Grey knights get corrupted by chaos weapons. Fucking FULGRIM got corrupted by a chaos weapon, but Logan? Nah, man's just built different. He ripped a khorne berserker's throat out with his teeth, grabbed his demonic axe and just started swinging that shit. And just kept swinging it for CENTURIES without even the slightest sign of corruption. Not like he's even holding back or anything, his go-to fighting style is to go berserk the same way khorne followers do, but nah, for some reason he's the one guy in 40k who just isn't corruptable by chaos weapons. They have such severe main character syndrome that they're a worse offender of never wearing helmets than even the sisters of battle. To the point where it was explained away in-universe as "Oh yeah, you know the aim assist and HUD and shit that's in space marine helmets? Yeah, the wolves senses are so sharp they actually operate better without that." as if that makes sense.
I hope Russ returns exactly as he was and there is a very controversial conflict between him and his sons, because they don't agree with him anymore. Interesting to see where that would go
As for the wulfen, the Wolves stood up for them for several reasons. One they are legends from their past who stood by and fought at the side of their primarch who they revere. And 2. They are a depleted, stretched and haggard chapter who can’t afford to throw away brothers
I could see Russ returning and still being bloodthirsty as ever leading to some interesting drama for the Wolves, It could even lead to a schism in opposition to what the Lion is doing by reuniting his sons
Idk… the 30k wolves did exactly what they were meant to. They were the emperors executioners sent in when they wanted total genocide. The wolves hypocrisy for “acting heroic” after doing terrifying deeds was also the rest of the Imperium’s hypocrisy as well, as they sent the wolves, then turned a blind eye on the terrible acts and awarded them fame for doing what they wouldn’t. “Wasn’t me, I’m still honorable.” Said the other chapters as they sighed in relief. 40k wolves are executioners realizing they can’t act as a blind weapon. The wolves were made monsters so that others may act as though virtuous nobles.
You kind of hit the nail on the head. Think you've responded about to me about this comment in the past, that based off us Corax, it's possible Russ comes back as a werewolf-like primarch, I hope he doesn't. The best it could be is as many have stated, Russ comes back as Odin, because in 30k he is Thor. Black Library would be wise to read a lot of the Marvel comics and see how Thor Odinson becomes Thor All-Father (though technically The Emperor is the All-Father in Warhammer 40k).
I think the space wolves like god of war series where you start as a arrogant and selfish Kratos and when you get to god of war 2018 kratos wises up and becomes less angry and cares for others instead of himself
Honestly, I expect a sort of opposite to Lion El'Johnson. Lion is worried that his current sons will be upset that he's forgiven The Fallen and is willing to be more temperate. I wouldn't be surprised that if/when Russ shows back up, he expects his sons to be exactly like they were in 30k and is upset that they're more reserved and thoughtful then he remembers (By comparison obviously, they're still Space Wolves). In essence, both Primarchs are going to be disappointed with their sons but as readers we'll know that the Dark Angels are "Miss-guided" and Russ is too aggressive and unbending for the current age.
I always think back to Bricky when I hear Space wolfs. "Are you looking for Vikings in space? Congratulations you've found Vikings in space" Love 40k wolfs
they do sk.. they re the one of the worse . hypocrites.. the only worse legion might be Dark Angels and i do hope L.R. is not the next primarch who returns . Vulkan will be nice to come back to fix the throne .. or the Khan that will also be amazing
From what we have seen of how GW releases primarchs, it seams that they are revealing the ones with the most profitable factions. And the major selling factions of space marines left within the Imperium are Space Wolves and Blood Angels, so Russ has the biggest chance of being the next revealed primarch, much like his Fulgrim is likely going to be the next revealed primarch for chaos
If you do not like Russ I recommend the book "wolfsbane" or "Leman Russ the great wolf" both of these books really show how Russ changes and how much he tries to do better by his sons. Very good reads if you have the time!
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DID YOU REALLY CALL RUSS THE WORST PRIMARCH? Those are fighting words of the highest order traitor scum.
Dear weshammer, I've been a fan of your content for a long time, and I am well aware of how valuable your time is and I know this is probably really annoying but I thought that I'd give it a shot I'm not sure if have watched the amazing TH-cam series "what if the emperor had a text to speech device" but I thought you'd be a big fan the premise is the adaptest mechanics have a text to speech device from ancient Terra and have used it on the emperor of mankind now the emperor is back and trying to fix all the problems with the Imperium it is a amazing show and I and many others would love to see you review it again sorry for being annoying your Loyally -sir multiverse (PS sorry for any spelling mistakes I'm Dislaxic)
Just an FYI. Code only gives 200 not 2200 Blackstone
@@magnusbuckus3266 thanks for the catch! That was a typo on my part
@@sirmultiverse5896 oh I am a big fan! Ive watched the whole thing and was heart broken when it ended. Alfabasa seems happy making his new series tho and that's what really matters :)
Tbh, Leman Russ's journey if he returns now reminds me of Odin's tale.
Odin sacrificed his eye to learn of the runes and how fate works, wandered far and wide for wisdom and mingled with mortal men to learn of their plight. When he returned to Valhalla as the one eyed king, he was wise, almost all-knowing and more powerful then ever.
If they did something similar to Russ, then He'd could return as a rival or loyal mirror image of what Magnus is.
Honestly? That would be awesome
Considering the Lion came back a different man, it's entirely possible
Let's be fair to the story tellers. 40k was written first and then 30k was written after by several writers with differing levels of familiarity with the setting. The Horus Heresy was setup by GW on the fly with a very limited outline. That's why several of the books contradict each other. Some of the bad writing can be drawn up to the fact that the Sons of Horus (Black Legion) were called the Lunar Wolves.
Russ is the Emperor's Executioner and many writers made Russ flat due to the differing views of the Emperor in the Horus Heresy novels.
This is exactly what I believe is going to happen to Russ and I'm here for it.
What I would like to happen is for Russ to come back, with only his right eye, allowing him to Mirror Magnus completely. Seeing as we're getting big old psyker buffs on a lot of characters are getting, maybe Russ could have claimed Magnus'' actual eye from Tzeentch, or something
The transformation happened in the immediate aftermath of Prospero, when the Space Wolves were corned by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. It's in a short story collection called "The Burden of Loyalty". Russ felt horrible for killing Magnus, admitted that he was wrong...which was a huge blow to his pride...to throw salt in the wound, the entire 6th Legion would have perished without the intervention of the Dark Angels, another Legion they had beef with. The story itself was called "The Wolf King" and written by Chris Wraight. He's by far the best writer for Space Wolves. He also handles the White Scars great. Really understands the "noble savage" mentality of the 5th and 6th Legion.
Also, read "Wolfsbane". It didn't take 10,000 years for the Space Wolves to learn from their mistakes. Russ recognized his failing and made sure he corrected it.
Russ didn't kill Magnus lmao
Also I;d argue William King was the best Space Wolves writer.
Leman Russ actually had an arc in the Heresy, probably one of the only detailed and positive arcs among the loyalist Primarchs. A shame most people never get to appreciate it.
Perfectly said. Dont know how the creator missed this plot point. Russ letting himself be stabbed by the Lion underscores this point at the end of the HH...the symbolic 'death' of old, blowhard Russ. The arc of the SW is what is most interesting to me. You start off rolling your eyes at them, but they clear have several moments of reflection (in 30k) which shows the "I recognise me failing and will be sure to correct it" in direct action.
@@drewmikhael31 usually people who miss the plot of 30k Space Wolves are blinded by "awww, poor Magnus did nothing wrong/Leman Russ is just a big meanie" sentiment. Glad someone else sees the truth! Also liked your take on Russ letting the Lion stab him.
The change technically began during the Heresy itself during events after the Burning of Prospero when Russ himself began to doubt his role as the Emperor's Executioner.
It's pretty much spelled out in the audio drama Wolf's Claw then followed that up with the novel Vengeful Spirit and then the novel Wolfsbane here Russ openly disagreed with the Emperor's decisions and for also letting himself be manipulated by Horus into destroying the Thousand Sons and the world of Prospero.
While the Horus Heresy's beginnings showed the Wolves at their worst (thought it seemed that their role as the Emperor's Executioners fit them at the time) as the Heresy progressed we get to see how the Burning of Prospero and the events afterwards would help pivot the Wolves to be less Executioners and more Protectors of the Imperium.
Not really you might have a point if russ hadnt left in the warp
They just got good when he left
@@dumbidea1007 True, but I still think Russ' thinking was becoming less Executioner and more wanting to do things his way instead of just what the Emperor told him to do.
I also think that the one person that impacted Russ' thinking ended up being left behind to lead the Chapter while Russ and his veterans left for the Eye of Terror to find the Tree of Life: Bjorn the Fell-Handed.
Bjorn probably had a huge impact in moving The Rout to becoming less murder-make executioners to more of the 40k Wolves we know now.
@@Tullaryx "Wanting to do things his way instead of just what the Emperor told him to do."
Isn't thinking he knew better than the Emperor, like... the whole reason you guys criticize Magnus so much?
@@peterlepper5199disagreeing with people doesn't necessarily mean thinking you know better than them. It all depends on if you're arrogant enough to think that way. Otherwise you just do stuff the way you feel comfortable doing them and aren't a sucker that follows every order to the letter
Thanks for taking the time to type out the full explanation for those who haven’t read all the source materiel. The Horus Heresy is a prequel for a reason, people…it’s supposed to show how the legions change over time!
Ya, sorry about all those death threats. Handwriting and mailing you 12,000 to 14,000 a day was a little excess
Wes did at least say they were “tasteful” death threats but dude, you really need to do something else with your time. May I suggest crochet? It’s my go-to when I start thinking of sending death threats!
It was worth it 😂😂
“Prosperines deserved the Burning of Prospero” may have gone a little too far.
The Space Wolves are the army that regularly I play the TT game with. They aren't the legion I would have picked right off the bat, but one of my best friends passed away and he bequeathed his massive 5k point army to me and 85% of it was comprised of Space Wolves, with the rest being Sororitas and Sisters of Silence. He also left me a 2k point Custodes army and a troupe of Harlequins, but he hadn't painted them yet. All that said, I play the Space Wolves proudly at any opportunity, because it's my tribute to my friend who loved that legion, and now I do too. I've even updated them with new tanks, Dreadnaughts, Primaris, Knights, and even a Warhound, with banners to his memory.
So while I would have preferred Dark Angels, White Scars, Salamanders, or even Ultramarines (I began liking them a lot more after RG came back). The shaggy Vikings are my guys, and I have great love for them.
I'm sure your friend would be proud and honoured you still play with his Wolves. Rest in peace to him.
Sorry for your loss.
Leman was the reason the space wolves implemented change. He realized he can be more than his father’s weapon and didn’t want another Prospero to happen.
TALK
it wasn't foult why leman is like this
it was leman not empeor
and blaming everything on emperor is chap
@@whiteeye9584Except Leman had no reason to distrust Horus.
@@DemigodoftheSea Exactly. Horus was still the warmaster. The most trusted one by the emperor.
then why did he distrust? i wonder@@DemigodoftheSea
The Ragnar Blackmane books are excellent . Ragnar is probably one of the most well written and most human space marine I have come across in 40k
Indeed, he is the Drizzt do Urden of the WH40k... I love him.
Plus those books are awesome for onboarding someone to 40k. You get to learn about the setting as Ragnar himself does.
it just bad novel series tbh , as if written for children. the action scenes are laughably bad bad bad
Those books were my introduction, and I'm still a Warhammer fan 15 years later
Same these books were my first big introduction to the universe othe than the space marine game
Russ himself implemented the change after Prospero. He had a change of heart later in the novels, and vowed to never be the cause of something like that again. He couldn't even land the killing blow on Horus when he had the chance to kill him because of it
Exactly. I know this was a long time ago but this needs more likes
I know a lot of people have already written this, but a big appeal of the Wolves is how much they change between 30k and 40k. Because you're right. In 30k, the Space Wolves are little more than bullies and butchers who serve a demagogue leader, and they revel in their unhinged actions. Prospero might be the biggest example of their thoughtless violence, but its only one of countless times the Space Wolves act this way. But here's the thing - Prospero wasn't a victory. It was an abject failure on the part of the Wolves and especially Leman Russ. Because of Prospero, the Thousand Sons fully fell to Tzeentch, and the Wolves would never make it to Terra to fight in the Siege. Russ did try to communicate with Magnus prior to the Burning, but even with Magnus not responding to his hails to talk about the situation, Russ' impatience and lack of critical thinking led to a situation that was far, far worse than if he had just questioned an order. People talk about how the Wolves loyalty is their biggest strength, but it's also one of their greatest weaknesses when it's turned against them. And that's why they realized they needed to change. They couldn't just be a weapon, they needed to live up to the heroic aspirations that, for the majority of the Heresy and Great Crusade, they were just pretending to. Even Leman Russ, the biggest bully of them all, saw how his unquestioning loyalty to the Emperor and willingness to committ atrocities caused more harm than good and left his legion to make it right. Of course, his definition of "make it right" was to enter the warp and find mythical seeds to revitalize the very demagogue who turned him into a weapon, so it's not great, but it's something.
Ultimatley, for a chapter that desparately wants to color itself in the shades of it's successes, they're defined by their failures. Their failure to self-reflect, their failure to question orders, and their failure to think past personal glory. It's why the Space Wolves of 40k are so much more empathetic (for Space Marines, that is) and willing to push back against what they feel is wrong. That's some serious character development, and it's why I like them so much.
This is largely a ramble post, but I wanted to add my 2 cents. Great video, btw.
Amen
I really like how the Space Wolves have the most liberty in the imperium of all chapters and how they openly defy decisions that would be basically common sense among other astartes, like the Codex for example. For me they are as much a force of the future as the ultramarines are, each of them representing an aspect of what the Imperium will need in times of peace (if there would ever be one lol).
To be fair to Russ, the Emperor ordering a full genocide including one of his legions is kinda in character after the destruction of Khur and Monarchia
And the wolves ARE the Enperor's execitioners
Word.
And to add further. The 2 ''Lost Legions'' must have been Big E's decision aswell, so it aint too crazy to get an order or purging, and if we want our tinfoil hats on, Russ and his Legion might aswell had been part of that too
@@Onkoloinen And he'd held a vote with the Primarchs over whether to Un-exist Lorgar before Monarchia too. So the idea he'd do it again after Magnus defied his explicit instruction to not use magic (plus Russ's hate for magic), understandable why he didn't doubt it
On Khur and in monarchia itself all of the civilians were allowed to leave. Only the city was torn down. The emperor is not heartless to the civilians of the imperium. It is the imperium of man and that is stressed multiple times. The emperor is building it for humanity.
14:53 I’m a huge fan of Brother Hendrickson from the Ghazkhull book. He’s a runepriest who’s part of an Inquisitors entourage. Dude’s actually pretty chill with loyalist psychers even tutors Cassandra (the only known Ogren psycher to exist)
Ogryn psyker?! Awesome!
@bonefetcherbrimley7740 awesome? Or Heresy? Methinks Heresy. Emperors Mercy directed upon that poor Ogryn's likely corrupted soul.
@@mrblack5145 oh its absolutely heresy, and that is why she was executed immediately after the battle her powers manifested... any and all doubts or concerns about the validity of her execution should be referred to the office of Inquisitor Titonnida Falx
@@bonefetcherbrimley7740 Someone told me about gray ogryns, who were all psykers. Haven't been able to find anything on them, but there you go.
The wolves are used as plot devices more than they are actual characters with nuance. They aren't the only chapter that gets this treatment, just the most abundant.
Nah that still goes to the ultra smurfs, just like the space wolves they do have stand out characters but most of them are just card board cut out stereo types
@@JJJBunney001the smurfs are the default good elite troops, the spacewolves are the murder hobos.
@@Argoshlol I’d say as far as loyalist legions go, but for any legion that award goes to the night lords
@@Argosh I mean, that comes a little with the "Space Viking" backdrop for them. Would actually be interesting to see a writer who has some deep knowledge of Norse myth and history take a crack at the Wolves, come to think of it.
idk id say iron hands fans would have something to say about that
I personally love the entire history of the wolves, and like you, I myself despise the 30K rendition of them but I also love the evolutionary progression they show in 40K. All in all, my space wolves are always going to be a personal favorite for many reasons, but also, a great window of wisdom to remember that even the worse can change if given enough time
30K Wolves are better. More Viking than furry. They should ditch the dog thing. It's tired and lame.
to each their own I guess@@vulkeg
@@vulkegagreed the whole wolf thing is getting very tiring and is very cringe. It sucks especially because I do like the space wolfs.
@@Lemnock same
More viking? The incredibly bastardised fictional version of the vikings?@@vulkeg
40K Space Wolves are total bros that are one of the most noble bright elements of the setting, and have been since 2nd edition. How Black Library managed to balls up their 30K lore so badly is beyond me.
100% this
As a die-hard Space Wolves fan, it´s been a joy watching this video. I believe most of the hatred towards Space Wolves comes from a place of superficial knowledge, I´m really glad you dug deep on their lore. I live in constant fear that this hatred will make GW slowly make the wolves disappear as a main faction, I only wish they step up and just do something important about them. The one part I disagree with is your view on Leman Russ, I find him quite judgmental about himself when alone with his thoughts, even if he doesn´t show it outwardly so clearly (which makes sense, as a wolf he shouldn´t show weakness). He regrets so much of what he´s done, and even when invading Prospero he pretty much begs Magnus to surrender before landing on the planet, I believe he may hate him but he didn´t want to go down the road of full blown invasion. He loves and hates deeply, and all the emotions in between, he´s so full of errors, I find other primarchs too perfect in their own way (for good or bad) I find Russ one of the most human primarchs. By the end of the Heresy he realizes he has been a brainless automata, following orders blindly, and he pledges to follow his conscious more from then on. He has a really good character growth in my opinion, from feisty lad to a wiser man. I´m expecting him to return in an Odin like figure as you mention, but would be fine with him returning as a mad wulfen-like primarch, both ideas sound good to me. For the wolves as a legion, I just absolutely love their "fu*k you" mentality. Am I gonna die for not following your orders? May we all end in this? Who cares. That makes them incredibly dangerous for any foe, they´ve survived Fenris, isn´t gonna get any worse than that. That "fu*k you" mentality goes so deep that not even the chaos gods can take them, the wolves are some of the most chaos resistant chapters, with very few of their astartes falling to chaos. For such a violent chapter, their code of honour is incredible. This ties in perfectly with that other side of their personality, their lust for life and love of partying. This may be their last night alive, why not have a great last one? Not to mention Logan Grimnar is one of the most charismatic and loveable space marines there are, he will have a beer with you and laugh his ass off but when shit hits the fan he turns into this unstoppable force of nature, and as you mention he lives and dies by his beliefs, part of those being that they are there to protect humanity, something that many other legions have forgotten, which once again creates this beautiful paradox making the violent, bloood thirsty wolves into one of the most humanitarian legions in 40k.
"We may be few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains one of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope." Ragnar Blackmane
Long live the Vlka Fenryka!
all you say about Leman Russ is so true ! thank you for your time to write that all down for Weshammer. have a good one :)
Russ is an interesting character when you get to see inside his head. He plays a lot of mind games, and uses his image as a "Barbarian Lout" to make people underestimate him, even among his brothers. He boasts and swaggers, cause he's playing into an expectation, and then when people often least expect they learn how quickly he can take that mask off when it suits him.
Really hoping we get to see him make a return to the 40K era sometime soon, as I want to see how his journey in the Warp will have changed him.
Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf on the wolf, Wolfgar. Wolf wolf wolf.
@@maxgehtdnixan4913 yeah can't fight that logic, you've completely demolished my point, and in such an original way! Now go look up the meaning of the blood angels names from latin and start commenting bloodbloodblood on all their videos, that way no one will ever be able to raise any other points as that's clearly the most important thing!
@@carlosanton6048 Hey, I liked 'em when they were space vikings, but later codexes really went ham on the wolf theme to an unreasonable degree. It's what caused the terrible writing in 30k in the first place. 3rd edition was bearable, everything after just went completely schlock.
If you haven’t heard it yet, listen to “the parting of the ways” audio drama. It’s about Bjorn the fellhanded’s transition to great wolf, dreadnought, and Russ’ departure, but also kinda speaks about the change of the legion after prospero, and most importantly, leman. It’s not much, but it’s a little insight. I’m a huge fan of space wolves but I get it, they were monsters in 30k.
This is why I like the Space Wolves. They start out as possibly the most disliked out of all the legions. Their status as one of the trefoil legions, problems with their gene seed, the character of their recruits, the way that they fought and the general distain they had for the baseline humans they fought alongside. This was on top of their job as the legion who were used to keep other legions in line and having Russ as their primarch.
Fast forward to 40K and they're generally viewed as one of the chapters that are the most sympathetic to the general population of the Imperium. Their 'redemption' is a lot longer and more painful than some of the loyalist legions which were pretty much just boils down to 'and then their primarch was found'.
The wolf story arc of being a brash young group that make stupid decisions that’s tempered by age and experience is there story arc that happens with Bloodclaw‘s going to gray hunters going to long fangs and it’s it’s the story of the legions as well. They made horrible mistakes and 30 K and overtime they were tempered.
Thing is with the Space Wolves doing an about face on mutants, they were *their* mutants. And on protecting civilians at Armageddon and the Great Shame, I think it was probably not the Grey Knights being humble, I think it was in reference to Prospero and the shame felt there which caused the Wolves to stand up to try to make amends
i think it's a bit of both here. It's like the jock who bullied the nerd and found out laterwhen they matured and leveled out that what they did was super messed up and wrong; and tries to fix it by standing up to bullies in the future. I have a sucessor chapter of space wolves known as The Hellhounds; founded in the 21st founding and were made with a splice of space wolf and salamanders. They have a ashen grey skin and burning orange eyes, and their hair is the color of smoke and fire; and their blood even boils and glows a firey orange color like molten steel. The Hellhounds are known to save as many civillians as possible and take on more than their share of aspirants and auxilury forces into their ranks; while their chapter is only 1,000 marines, they have a small army of over 500,000 aspiriants, and auxilury forces backing them up.
@@dungeonlessdm6914 How do you mean you have chapter of space wolves? Have you used some warp fuckery to tp to WH universe, mantled the Emperor, cured the SW furry problem and created a physic defying mutant chapter? That's impressive.
The grey knights definitely did not agree with the months of shame. They were following orders from the inquisition. A small group of grey knights even discussed killing the lord inquisitor while it was escalating out of control.
Some of the first warhammer fiction I read was the original Space Wolves trilogy, but as I delved deeper into 30k lore and such I was flabbergasted how completely different their portrayl was.
Considering Russ actually had a spear, having him return as a badass space Odin would be very on point (hell, the spear's actual name is Gungir, very similar to Odin's spear, Gungnir). It would also be a symbol of character growth in and of itself, since he hated the spear in 30k. And besides, it would also fit with the loyalist primarchs' weaponry, since it is a weapon of The Emperor.
Look, I'm not a furry lover but the Wolves standing up to the Grey Knights and Inquisitors was dope.
I dunno. Wouldn't inquisition just muster a whole ass armada and exterminatus the shit out of Fenris afterwards? Like Wes said, it's the question of authority.
0:26 "Tasteful death threat or two" Idk why that made me laugh so hard bro, the just casual way you mention it has this "NO FUCKS GIVEN" Vibe and I love it.
Also, the entire changing of the legion started with Leman, they were even more feral before he joined and it was his desire for the legion to change from their 30k versions. His arc was always going towards a wiser and introspective character. But my fears are now that the Lion came back the same way Russ may not be able to do so to not have redundant characters.
I guess Wes stands with Magnus
Only the sith deal in absolutes.
He said the Thousands Sons are one of his favourite legions.
He did nothing wrong
@@szymonkalinski3014 Yet he cant understand that in 30k psykers were forbidden, if not the wolves someone else would do the same thing, imagine sisters and custodes dropping in, the world would be fucked beyond comprehension.
As we all should
My biggest problem with the Space Wolves is that I think GW have gone way too far with the wolf theme instead of the Viking theme.
The optional wolf helmets on some of the new models are so embarrassing.
they did because furries have money
Why not go in on the 🐺 theme, another legion are literally vampires and another are straight up warlocks
Why not go in on the 🐺 theme, another legion are literally vampires and another are straight up warlocks
I could never place it but yes! This sums up how I feel perfectly!
This bias against Russ is ridiculous he didn’t even want to invade Prospero he practically begged Magnus to talk and return to Terra peacefully but the message never got through. While in the alexus nebula fighting Alpharius Russ vowed with Bjorn that he would change the Space Wolves for the better and never blindly willingly follow orders refusing to be just a Executioner. Russ caused the change for the 30k Wolves and Bjorn ensured his dream would last after his disappearance into the warp.
Bjorn is an amazing character. Pretty much the only "living" space marine that fought beside Big E and Russ. He is awesome!
Yea Bjorns arc during the Heresy was great there’s alot of rumors going around that Russ is the next returning Primarch so i cant wait for him nd Bjorn to reunite in 40k.
@@wolflordgio6320 I mean they don't really have many other choices. Out of the 9 loyal primarchs, 2 have returned (Lion and Robot), 2 are VERY dead (Iron hand of the iron hands and Sanguinius). That leaves 5. Vulkan will return once the salamanders finally collect all the exodia pieces. Corvus is stuck in the warp, torturing Lorgar. Speedy mcspeed is having the biggest orgy in the webway with some eldar. Dorn is all but confirmed dead. That leaves Russ :) Sure he's sort of stuck in the warp too as far as we know. But he could return as a wise Odin like character. Would be cool!
Russ = Based. Some people just can't handle it
100% I am convinced people that hate on Russ and the Wolves haven't read enough on them. The hate train is just a bandwagon.
Calling Russ rhe worst primarch when 30k Lion El'Johnson exists is a bold statement.
Calling anyone else the worst primarch when drooling angry boy exists is a bokd statement.
OH BUT HIS STORY IS TRAGIC.
Yeah well that's his past I get it he gets that excuse doesn't change the fact I hate every second he's in a story because he's just an annoying angry sad douche.
It's okay to be wrong sometimes, I see you enjoy being wrong entirely aswell
@ravenmckay-croswell1980 tell me which loyalist primarch is worse than Johnson? Almost gets Guilliman killed by Kurze by not telling him he was on his ship, gives Perterabo the most powerful siege weapons as a bribe to get him to vote for the lion as the new warmaster, kills one of his most loyal sons for questioning his breaking of the edict of nykea, sends away his oldest friend and a bunch of other dark angels without telling them why creating a massive rift in his own legion, spends years destroying the traitor home world's instead of trying to get to Terra as quickly as possible to help with the Siege. Literally, the only thing 30k Johnson is good at is fighting. It's a very close race to the bottom between russ and johnson for the worst loyalist primarch of the Horus heresy era.
@ravenmckay-croswell1980 oh I also forgot that Johnson is responsible for the tyranids too. If it weren't for him chasing down rumors of kurze he would have been able to protect the pharos device and it wouldn't have blown up attracting the nids.
@@ragingmoderate6791all still amounting to more then ferrus
I highly recommend “Ashes of Prospero” where Njal Stormcaller travels to Prospero to save the 13th Great company from that portal thing they went into, as it is timey-wimey 13th is still around. Obviously it contains a clash of old and new, but also he is being guided to them by a spirit of a dead thousand sons’ sorcerer from heresy.
anything by written by Dark Angel Thorpe is just faction assassination
It could be argued them defending the Wulfen is another example of their hypocrisy, condeming other mutants except their own.
But anyway, some Space Wolves books I reccomend are:
Lukas the Trickster, a humorous character focussed story with some deep analysis on the purpose of a Space Marine and their relationship with normal humans (as in why they should protect them, and if Space Marines should think themselves more important than they are).
Ashes of Prospero, has the wolves return to Prospero in current day and has them come to terms of what they did back during the Heresy.
Wolfsbane, a 30k story with Leman Russ yes, but I also see it as the point the Wolves started making a turn for the better as Leman shows great character development and regret on his actions on Prospero and indeed has him reconsidering his role in the Imperium.
I definitely prefer the 40K version of the Space Wolves over the 30K version. Even the Primaris Marines of the Wolves line that appear in the unnumbered sons, like Biarne in the first Dark Imperium book who was in the unnumbered sons with Captain Felix, he's so fiercely loyal to his Primaris brothers, whether they're Blood Angels, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists.
Only Vulkan, Jagatai and Guilliman are based in 30k. The oters, every single one including the Angel is fu cked in the head.
@@ArantyrDarkhand even Sangunius?
@@ArantyrDarkhandSangy is ok too
Space wolves: we will never accept primaris marines!
One prime boi: yall are jerks. I'm gonna run into the woods for a few months. Bye.
Space wolves: *wiping tears from eye * my boy!
Dude, in the Ragnar Blackmane trilogy , there is a part of book, where wolf lord Ragnar talks down wulfen possessed marine (maybe even physically changing him back).
The wolves of Fenris are a solid chapter, and I’d like to think that the growth from the heresy to current time shows the growth of the chapter. Still my second if not third favorite chapter.
Keep up the awesome work!
Wolfsbane is a really good HH book and a look into Russ and how he's still totally messed up from Prospero and also how the man dumbly sacrafices like 80% of his legion. I think this is more or less the catalist that starts to change the cultrue of themselves.
I liked the Space Wolves in the book The Burning of Prospero. The Rune Priest in it was self aware, fully knowing he was a psyker, and he'd come to terms with that. He just claimed he knew where the line he couldn't cross was.
That’s not just any rune priest, that was the head of the rune priests.
The months of shame is really what made me fall in love with the space wolves
Actually makes me hate them more. Sure, they were on the right side. But they had PURE Gary Stu energy about it. They just win, and don't suffer any real consequences for it at all. None. Grimnar insta-wins against a Grey Knights grandmaster? Before the guy can draw his blades? Come on.
@@BenHyle Well, they lost thousands of Astartes and many ships.
But for Grimnar, he is the LOGAN GRIMNAR after all, the other was just a chapter master.
@chimera916 yeah but a Grey Knight? I don't buy it. Few chapters have the amount of experience fighting space marines like Grey Knights do
Not even a space wolves fan but.. Oh noez someone killed a GREY KNIGHT!! As if Logan is not one of the Imperiums greatest legends himself. Grey knights are beasts but not immortal
@@mercilesswombat6872Thing is that as a Grey Knight, he could have just smited him mentally on the spot. He had that named marine plot armor.
It would be fun to see Russ come back all mature and sage.......but I also would want that moment where he just goes off and we see the full unfettered violence of the 30K wolves.......just pointed in the right direction this time.
If it helps, the Wolves hstarted to have a turning point in their character during the Horus Heresy, pretty early on and just after the Burning of Prospero. It was around when the novel Scars was set.
Leman's fleet and legion were wounded and being harried by the Alpha Legion. He called on the White Scars for help, and Jhagathai sent back a message that read in-between the lines as "I just heard about Prospero, so...I think you might be Traitor. Good luck with the Alphas!" It made Leman have to take a good, long look in the mirror about acting as the ravening barbarian and the Emperor's executioner, and how it made his legion look and the condequences there.
I can imagine that the self reflection happened after the burning of prospero, and the lose of Russ. I feel the wolves need something that can give their insight
WORST PRIMARCH?!?!?!? HERESY! I just hope when Leman comes back (hopefully soon) he is in a similar position as The Lion was and is very repentant for the mistakes he made in the past.
He already was pretty much through out the heresy. Since and durning the burning of prospero he had begun to regret how he approached things.
After failing to deliver the killing blow to Horus he had almost given up and resigned to die.
And once he eventually got to Terra after the heresy finished… he was devastated and regretted his decisions.
He already had his old man Lion moment and it was durning the heresy.
I’m hoping for the opposite. I want the “brash”, big bro kick your ass Russ. Which would indicate that he got over what happened and hasn’t been wallowing in self pity for 10 thousand years.
I personally don’t hate him, but I absolutely can see why someone would think that. Even so Lorgar is the worst primarch by far.
Pfft
@@Historyfrek4everI disagree lorgar was just not meant as a warrior he could have turned the peoples he converted into a bunch of alah huakbar moron like in 40k but he wanted to make little paradise instead.
Hell him and guiliman are pretty much the real mvp as they are the ones that pretty much allow the emperium to survive until 40k Thanks to the divino levitatus.
@@dumbidea1007 As a person, as a speaker and propagandist he was par excellence. The man effectively caused the heresy and corruption of his brother’s so yes technically he was the most successful primarch even if he got instructions from the chaos gods. Great character, but a massive massive piece of shit.
I agree that the Heresy wolves are trash, but I'll argue the reason isn't because Russ is gone. The wolves are suffering from GW wanting to write the fall of Magnus and the Thousand Sons a tragedy. The wolves have to do horrible things because they are the antagonists of the TS story, but because they are still loyalist, GW has to make them look like heroes. So you get the narrative dissonance that Wes was talking about. Now that the Wolves are free from being antagonists in a very specific story they can be better, hence why the wolves of 40k have better stories and hopefully when Russ returns he'll get a similar treatment.
Im more of an Eldar enjoyer but I admit the wolf boys are pretty cool
Why hello there 😁
I am the same way though my first love is still the Asur from Fantasy (screw AoS)
I highly recommend the audio book the "Battle of the Fang" to see Bjorn in all his glory and the signs of change in the wolves.
Awful book imo. Didn't make sense. Why were the wolves so angry at the Tsons? Russ felt shame. Why was Grimnar such a headstrong idiot? How could one rune priest out magic the entire Tsons legion? So dumb
One suggestion I would give you Wes for reading is Leman Russ's primarch novel. It shows him as more of a character than just king murder hobo. Also the Space Wolves audio collection from Audible is great. Especially the short story called parting of the ways. I will admit as a Space Wolves fan that GW has not handled their writing the best. Even in the Months of Shame story there are some shaky bits. Their Dawnfire novel was garbo too. I don't care what anyone else says it was shitty. However there are other good stories.
I only remember the 30k Space Wolves from a short story, in which a small platoon of them helped a planet rebel against dark eldar. It was a really great story.
Dude, you must’ve missed the part in the Prospero Burns book where Russ was having a nervous breakdown over the orders to kill Magnus.
I don't trust that he gave the 30k Wolves a fair read :/
@@garayworkshop exactly, surely hasn't read Wolfsbane and most likely skimmed through Prospero Burns.
The problem is that he still does it. Compounded with the rest of hypocrisy and Russ's history of being a jackass, it feels superficial. "I'm actually super deep and conflicted, but BRB gotta go obliterate Magnus's whole homeworld, ill actually question my orders later and take no accountability for how I caused this whole situation in the first place." is how it comes off to people. By the time he comes around, people have already mentally clocked out and don't want to read more Space Wolves content anymore.
Love your videos man. Helped me get into the 40k universe and all its greatness. 4 books, 3 video games, and a blood angel army built and I'm loving it all. Keep up the good work.
I wonder what will be interaction between Space Wolves and Leagues of Votann. I mean (space) vikings and (space) dwarves - there should be drinking competition!
God, I want a chapter dedicated to a space wolf and space dwarf draining a world dry of all their beer.
@@greenfire4656lol in a race against time before the Tyranid swarm drinks the world dry of it's everything
26:50 "...he then does something that is unthinkable for a Space Wolf. He apologises."
Very selective memory about the 30k Wolves right there. "I recognise my failing and will seek to correct it." (Paraphrasing) is a quote repeatedly used by the Wolves in 30k.
Plus Magnus had his chance to defend himself and decided to lie before the council of Nikea and the Emperor. He had the chance to surrender himself before the invasion and he didn't, so all those dead civilians on Prospero are on his hands, not the Wolves.
Big difference is: Wolves did what they were told, Magnus didn't.
The reason they got better was because of Prospero. Leman realized it was wrong and tried to reshape his legion to not be mindlessly loyal dogs that'll commit genocide because Big E said so. That's why he left Bjorn in charge, he knew Bjorn would succeed in reshaping the chapter in his absence
I think you judge Russ too harshly. One of the defining features of him is he is the most human of all the primarchs. He was really big on fraternity and loved all of his brothers, including Magnus. He didn’t blindly accept Horus’ orders. He wanted to try and talk to Magnus first. Magnus stupidly decided it was sad boi hours and shut communications off not only to Russ, but his children as well. Left with no other course of action they heeded Horus’ orders, knowing this was the third time they’ve had to destroy a legion.
He also had one of the most dramatic character arcs in the HH.
The thousand sons despite being cautious and methodical were using Sorcery as stated in the proposal at the council to only use the librarius discipline as it would be later on called.
Magnus was also keeping it a secret that him and a few more of his legion were in contact with otherworldly forces which led to their downfall like the use of their familiars aside from Magnus talking to Tzeentch.
Still the Emperors Fault.
Just wanted to let you know that after watching your vids for a few weeks I'm officially hooked just got my first two Horus Herresey books. Thanks! I really needed to explore a new verse!
All I understood from this video is why we should align ourselves with the great Kaghan Jaghatai Khan
I lost it at the camping joke XD I came into the video a little disturbed about the slander my Star Dogs were getting but I love your commentary so I reserved myself.
Allowing said joke to make me spill my drink on the floor. You're awesome, brother!
Controversial Opinion: The Space Wolves needs to be more Viking and less Wolf.
They are pretty Viking , their armor though full with like wolf fur and teeth is more Ike Viking and Shaka style . The only thing that makes them wolf like is their gene. I remember a quote. That leman Russ is a human pretending to be a monster and that the lion is a monster pretending to be a human or something like that
Not controversial in any way shape or form among anyone, literally only gw needs to get their heads out their ass and listen to the people. the most common and agreed take ever in 40k
Check out white scars they have such a similar vibe with no puppy stuff thrown in
I like that they start as hypocritical assholes. I’ve always believed the reason for this was because Russ was raised by wolves he lacks basic communication skills and views the world like an alpha in a pack, I don’t believe he really fully grasps concepts like morality and that feeds into the legion. Then when he leaves he leaves his sons to Bjorn, but he does it in a weird way, a way that made sense to Russ but to us readers felt like he was abandoning his son for not being good enough. Bjorn, who was raised by men, then made it his eternal duty to make the sons of Russ into honorable warriors as his father would want and because Bjorn had the social skills and basic humanity Russ always seemed to lack he lead the legion to slowly but surely become what they are today. In all honestly Bjorn was just as much a father figure to the legion as Russ if not more. It’s honestly ironic in a way cause the robot rotting corpse lead the sons to be more human than the human like father figure that came before.
Sorry this is a long comment, TLDR the wolves are a reflection of their alpha. Russ was less than human most of the time and Bjorn was more than human most of the time.
Edit: I also want to address how Russ should come back. I WANT Russ to come back sooner rather than later, I think him being immune to the warp is the way to go because watching all his sons that he entered the warp with turning to beasts could bring him some humanity, plus coming back to a setting where he only has his 2 brothers and a handful of sons is exactly what he would need to finally appreciate the lives of those important to him.
I enjoyed the Blood of Asaheim series and seeing interactions the Sisters of Battle and later the Ecclesiarchy have with the Space Wolves and their history. Also liked The Wolftime from the Dawn of Fire series and how the Space Wolves dealt with the return of Guilliman.
The 30k Wolves argument wasn't against the use of psykers, it was against unrestricted and unmediated use of the warp. The Thousand Sons generally doing anything they could, just because they could, without any form of restraint, is what they were arguing against.
They were making a "They are focused on whether they can do something. They never stop to ask if they should do something" argument. They weren't hypocrites, what they referred to as "sorcery" was behavior that they never participated in.
In the end, Magnus proved Leman right... Magnus's hubris and lack of respect for the warp ended up ruining everything
Magnus should have just said. "We're not using psychic powers, we're just channeling the world spirit of Prospero!" While sticking a big red middle finger in Othere Wyrdmake's face.
All right, that one got me. Don't worry, it's the world spirit of prospero. My favorite thing is like hey your channeling fenriss or whatever but then why do I see you in the warp? Like you do know it's the same thing right?
While he COULD do that, Magnus is just too pridefully stupid to do so
dude... from a person who has never played the table top and up until 5 months ago had never dipped my toe into the 40k grim dark, your channel is incredible! you cover the most important points of the topic at hand, i consume your videos weekly if not daily, i even find myself using your videos as the standard when watching other creators on the platform that cover 40k. Fantastically informative and your take on characters and story lines from a personal point convey how passionate you are about this franchise!!! love the content, i would never be confident enough to play the game, to squeamish to read the content and not talented enough to artistically give life to a figurine, but.... your content is my vox unit in the 40k GRIM DARK!!! THAKNYOU!!!
Thank you 🥲 I'm really glad you enjoy the videos!
The 40k Wolves have developed the way they are, *because* of the mistakes they made during the Heresy and 30k. They learned that while loyalty is the most important thing, where you place that loyalty and what you do for it matters far more.
It's why they are now so self sacrificing. Why they protect civvies like the Salamanders. Why they could give two flying chaos warp farts about what the Inquisition thinks and says. They are upholding their father's will, and the will of the Emperor. *Humanity* itself comes first. They are his sword to destroy threats and the most loyal sword at that, but they are also a shield to protect his children.
They *had* to be meh and so one dimensional in 30k, so they could learn, grow and become the Wolves we love in 40k. That's good writing. That's depth.
My introduction to Warhammer was a Space Wolf book I read over a decade ago that I at the time loved, but somehow I’m now walking the line between Plague Marine and Thousand Son😅
I only recently got into the tabletop aspect of The Hobby. My main love is nids, and my second was going to be Tau. However I've been reconsidering making my second army Thousand Sons. There lore is super cool, and they worship my favorite ruinous power. No idea how they function on the tabletop, but I mostly play as an extension of the lore.
@@jackfordansk4262 my guild mates on Warhammer Tacticus just convinced me to give tabletop a try. Was nervous about painting due to having my dominant hand amputated, but they gave me a ton of tricks and hacks. I love the Mortarion model, but army wise more than likely going Thousand Sons also. And yes, it’s the lore that’s trapped us all lol. They say it also saves money 3D printing.
@@champcpr Yeah, if you've got the money for a 3d printer, it's the way to go. I intend to get one at some point. I have a little adversity painting. Nowhere near to the same extent as yourself, but I just naturally have Shakey hands. But as long as your coats are thin, there's plenty of room for touch ups.
The entire story of Space Wolves is about growth. In 30k they were in many ways quite horrible people and Leman at the start had many flaws, but the big part of why I love Wolves and Russ more so than any other legion is their growth and journey. You see how regret over killing Magnus slowly eats away at Russ, how he is conflicted about his role and slowly grows to not only fix mistakes he has made, but also save his legion from destroying itself because of their practices. More so than anyone Russ genuinely changes and grows which can be seen to great extent in Wolfsbane or his Primarch novel which takes place both before and after the Heresy where both versions of the character are like 2 completely different people.
But sadly... in this fanbase you are pretty much hated for just saying you like Space Wolves. Some people will be cool with it as long as you admit they are awful and you acknowledge they are awful because if you don't, you are a moron and a fanboy. I genuinely hate this fanbase at some points because being a Space Wolf fan and Leman Russ fan is damn miserable because of people like those who don't give a single shit about their lore and will treat people who do like them like they are worse kind of people.
Space Wolves brought me into the fandom, they'll always be my home chapter and the first army I built to "completion". You don't stand alone, brother!
For Russ and the Allfather!
That's the first time I've ever heard someone hatin' on the Space Wolves. What a tough crowd on your end.
@@RavenAdventwings Look at the 40k subreddits for instance. You will see lots of people there hating on Wolves. Some people will go as far as to say Khan agreeing on something with Russ is "character assassination" and that Russ depiction from Prospero Burns is not canon and if you consider that book canon you are a moron and a fanboy.
And on TH-cam it's bad too with lots of people who only know memes and read like "A Thousand Sons" and think this is entire character of Space Wolves. The worst part is that those youtubers who also share this "Russ and Wolves bad" mentality are also some of the most popular like Wes here or Majorkill. It's tiring because this only makes the haters all the stronger while me and many other Wolf fans feel miserable as large part of the fanbase seems to hate us.
@@AzraelSoulHunter That makes me happy that I never follow those subreddits or most WarhammerTubers. Holy cow, what a toxic environment. And I'm T'au!
@@RavenAdventwings I&K would never
Always loved the story about the SW defending the survivors of Armageddon, so based. Glad to hear they're cool with their Primaris too. Maybe Russ could come back a douche and The Lion could help him adapt and grow, and help heal the wound between the chapters, would make for a cool novel.
Love the fact wes can come back a year later hold his hands up say hes wrong. Also space wolves whats not to love right
I am only at the 1:50 mark but I really wanted to text this so I don't forget. You could have cought the cold my camping. If it was cold or worse cold and rainy that could be why you got sick. I'm going to enjoy this video. Have a good rest of your day.
I was lit just about to type something similar, 90% of the time we have the flu but we are just I'm such good health we don't notice , as soon as we get too cold / lack of food etc the illness will win and take over
@@nameunavailable-gp3ot ya. Don't get down with that sickness. That would be disturbing, or at least I would be disturbed. (I hope you got the joke.) Have a good rest of your day.
The wolf boys ars what got me into 40k. Im glad you changed your mind Wes. Also thanks for the code.
The only TH-camr ever who apologized for being wrong, instead of intentionally keeping on being wrong for clickbait.
Yeah what sold me as a kid when I first saw Space Wolves were "oooh space vikings!". Then I read about Logan Grimnar and how most of them give the middle finger to the inquisition 😂. How it felt so human despite them being turned into space marines ^^
I feel like David Annandale is a really underrated author for the black library. I love Curse of the Wolfen it made me appreciate the Space wolves, his Warden of the Blade was easily my favorite grey knights story, and Ephrael Stern Heretic Saint gave me a sisters story with something they desperately need, a unique character who is at odds with herself and a walking contradiction. (sisters tend to be the exact same character) Ephrael is my favorite sister after that novel. and i don't know how we haven't gotten a story of her and Celestine trading blows. (also it's weird how many space marines have a weird mutation/secret that they try and keep hidden from the inquisition. the space wolves, the blood angels, the black dragons, the raven guard ect.)
Love your work. Really look forward to your videos
24:25 Ah yes, so you mean how every other first founding chapter treats their primaris 😔🥺
Wes's analysis is really cursory at best here. He's really missed the point entirely. It's not that the 6th had a problem with drawing upon the warp or even psychersat all. It's an issue on what you draw from it and where it comes from. As the Khan pointed out and the Emperor warned repeatedly, Magnus problem was that he had zero moderation and drew from the deep od the immaterum where all the nasty things dwell. The Scars and Wolves draw from the more elemental forces of the warp, which is far closer to the surface if you will and much closer to shamanism that sorcery. The difference is that shamans harnes and direct these elemental forces while the practice of sorcery is the binding twisting and breaking of these forces to fulfill their will. Shamans exist in relative harmony with these elemental forces while sorcerers bind and twist entities, namely Tutularies, to do their bidding. This fact, like it or not, makes all the difference in the world whether he wishes to see it or not.
"Laws are made for thee, but not for me, " said every nobleman, bishop, merchant-baron, corporation, and politician ever. You want hypocrisy, there it is in truckloads. "If a crime results in a fine, it is only a crime for those without wealth." And everyone one of those wealthy ones ever born has been an archcriminal. Look for yourself.
As for Russ, I think we're good. If TTS is anything to reckon by (and it *is,* Alfabusa is a massive and clever lore-nerd) the Ulf-King has spent the last several millenia in the Warp chopping on monsters, distilling whiskey out of demon guts, and ruminating on his failures. He's got a *beard!* And it's gray! He also hates his life. So yeah, I think he's grown up a bit.
In Russ's defense, why wouldnt he have believed Horus at that point in time? People like to say he just did it because he wanted to, but Russ was the furst primarch found after Horus, and everyone loved Horus, why would Russ doubt the man who is basically his big brother?
And in Prosphero Burns we do see Russ tried to talk to Magnus through what he believed was a psychicly linked spy, and he said he wanted to show him mercy, to not have to be the executioner.
The books about Ragnar Blackmane are good and very enjoyable to read. I personally like Space Wolves their wolf - theme armor and savage combat style and mostly bc they don't give a sh*t about inquisition and they care about civilians ( like Salamanders ). They also drink beer :)
That original trilogy got me into 40k over 20 years ago!
@@gypsylips1950 cool 😎
There is an amazing audio drama, whose title escapes me, where we hear about the Wolves' primarch departing never to return, and the emotional speech given before he set out, about what he saw in the Space Wolves and their shortcomings, and I found it to be very powerful, and perhaps was indeed a great turning point for at least some of them in the matter of their ethics and such.
40k wolves are like fantasy characters. 30k wolves are like people.
Caricatures in 40k for me.
the butcher variant are like people and the ones that are trying to walk the path of progress are like fantasy characters? ooookayyyyy
@@forcefulstorm6187 just look at our history and ponder which has been more like us when armies go to war: valiantly protecting the innocent at all costs (40k example), or butchering civilians in the name of any suitable excuse (30k example).
Sadly it’s the latter.
I dunno, they get away with so much in 40k that it sure is fantasy-like.
I love Space Wolves in both times. Perhaps because I started with an early codex and the Ragnar Blackmane books (Great books btw, especially the start of going from a boy to a space marine, going through battles with your new brothers, and going to Terra itself to help a Navigator house).
The whole core of vikings who were good enough to go to valhalla only to find out that they get to continue their story but in a much greater arena. Combined with the wild and pack oriented nature of a wolf. Makes for people who only care about themselves and those close to them and respect only those who have earned their place in stories.
As a Chapter they barely consider themselves part of the Imperium. They are more of a warhost whose leader has bent the knee out of respect to the Emperor and now they get to fight in all the battles they wish.
I also like their geneflaw protecting them from Chaos, as it basically makes any corruption likely to manifest the wolf part. Making their mutation more manageable.
Something people also miss about the Space Wolves, is they are the only legion to remain unbroken for 10,000 years. Until Guilliman's return, they had no successors. Russ agreed to let his legion operate under "Great Companies" instead, but that was already how it operated. For them, nothing changed when the legions were broken during the Second Founding. They are a full legion still.
Edit: The Space Wolves do indeed suffer from some bad writing, but I try not to hold that against them, since it's something that is more of a writer issue than a faction issue. It's kind of like how the Ultramarines are actually cool, but Matt Ward's books and GW marketing give them a bad rep they kind of don't deserve. Same thing with the Dark Angels; leaving a battle mid fight to chase Fallen is dumb, but the callback to actual inquisitions into British knights is super cool, it just gets handled poorly.
Thank you jeez the amount of people that take lazy writing or naming and put it on the faction is fucken embarrassing
They didn't get successors because their successors literally all went full mutant almost instantly.
I'm definitely a fan of the Wolves and wait for the return of Russ. After Lion El'Johnson's return and seeing how he has changed. It gives me hope that Russ will be a greater figure for the Space Wolves.
To be fair, I get the impression that leman russ and the wolves did not hate magnus and the thousand sons purely because they were psykers, he hated them because he believed they were using warp sorcery, and in fact they TOTALLY were. Theres a stark difference between the elemental power used by the runepriests , and the unrestrained sorcery that the thousand sons were getting into, I mean they literally had daemon familiars (tutelaries) following them around all the time pre-heresy. I think prospero burns really changed my outlook on the space wolves, I always just thought they were viking meatheads and that russ was a narcissistic asshole, but after reading that book, they are definitely more complex, and it seems to me russ is putting on an act as the "barbarian king", there's alot more going on with him than most give him credit for. Also, nobody ever mentions that russ basically begged Magnus to surrender before the battle of prospero, but the message never got through.
Ironically, I've never read of the 30k wolves, only the 40k ones and I'm still firmly in camp "Magnus was right about at least ONE thing", because I just can not stand what utter mary sues the wolves are. Not in the sense that they never lose, but how they seem to be the specialest of little boys, last in a long line of special little boys. They get to straight up ignore the codex, not even bend it like the templars or dark angels, just straight up tell it to fuck off. They get to tell the inquisition to fuck off. They get to tell the mechanicus to fuck off. They get to tell the grey knights to fuck off. They've got their super special unique psykers and their super special unique mounts and their super special unique formations and more variants and custom-made versions of their equipment than even the Salamanders (who make their own shit). And let's not forget the worst offender - Logan Grimnarr. Humans get corrupted by chaos weapons. Space marines get corrupted by chaos weapons. Grey knights get corrupted by chaos weapons. Fucking FULGRIM got corrupted by a chaos weapon, but Logan? Nah, man's just built different. He ripped a khorne berserker's throat out with his teeth, grabbed his demonic axe and just started swinging that shit. And just kept swinging it for CENTURIES without even the slightest sign of corruption. Not like he's even holding back or anything, his go-to fighting style is to go berserk the same way khorne followers do, but nah, for some reason he's the one guy in 40k who just isn't corruptable by chaos weapons.
They have such severe main character syndrome that they're a worse offender of never wearing helmets than even the sisters of battle. To the point where it was explained away in-universe as "Oh yeah, you know the aim assist and HUD and shit that's in space marine helmets? Yeah, the wolves senses are so sharp they actually operate better without that." as if that makes sense.
Just Imagine if the Primarch of the Space wolves returns,,, leading the Dark Wolves and its all about a long dark redemption arch
I hope Russ returns exactly as he was and there is a very controversial conflict between him and his sons, because they don't agree with him anymore. Interesting to see where that would go
As for the wulfen, the Wolves stood up for them for several reasons. One they are legends from their past who stood by and fought at the side of their primarch who they revere. And 2. They are a depleted, stretched and haggard chapter who can’t afford to throw away brothers
I could see Russ returning and still being bloodthirsty as ever leading to some interesting drama for the Wolves, It could even lead to a schism in opposition to what the Lion is doing by reuniting his sons
Idk… the 30k wolves did exactly what they were meant to. They were the emperors executioners sent in when they wanted total genocide. The wolves hypocrisy for “acting heroic” after doing terrifying deeds was also the rest of the Imperium’s hypocrisy as well, as they sent the wolves, then turned a blind eye on the terrible acts and awarded them fame for doing what they wouldn’t. “Wasn’t me, I’m still honorable.” Said the other chapters as they sighed in relief. 40k wolves are executioners realizing they can’t act as a blind weapon. The wolves were made monsters so that others may act as though virtuous nobles.
Like Wes, Magnus was wrong and arrogant. Russ was right. Space Wolves kick ass.
"Russ was right. Space Wolves kick ass" saying this is also arrogance and pure cope
You kind of hit the nail on the head. Think you've responded about to me about this comment in the past, that based off us Corax, it's possible Russ comes back as a werewolf-like primarch, I hope he doesn't. The best it could be is as many have stated, Russ comes back as Odin, because in 30k he is Thor. Black Library would be wise to read a lot of the Marvel comics and see how Thor Odinson becomes Thor All-Father (though technically The Emperor is the All-Father in Warhammer 40k).
Please cover the night lords they are so underrated
I think the space wolves like god of war series where you start as a arrogant and selfish Kratos and when you get to god of war 2018 kratos wises up and becomes less angry and cares for others instead of himself
Honestly, I expect a sort of opposite to Lion El'Johnson. Lion is worried that his current sons will be upset that he's forgiven The Fallen and is willing to be more temperate. I wouldn't be surprised that if/when Russ shows back up, he expects his sons to be exactly like they were in 30k and is upset that they're more reserved and thoughtful then he remembers (By comparison obviously, they're still Space Wolves). In essence, both Primarchs are going to be disappointed with their sons but as readers we'll know that the Dark Angels are "Miss-guided" and Russ is too aggressive and unbending for the current age.
Nah. The reason he left Bjorn is because he wanted them to become better. That's his entire journey in the Horus Heresy.
I always think back to Bricky when I hear Space wolfs.
"Are you looking for Vikings in space? Congratulations you've found Vikings in space"
Love 40k wolfs
they do sk.. they re the one of the worse . hypocrites.. the only worse legion might be Dark Angels
and i do hope L.R. is not the next primarch who returns . Vulkan will be nice to come back to fix the throne .. or the Khan that will also be amazing
Both legions Hypocrites and liers. And there Primarchs
I can't agree more omg ...
From what we have seen of how GW releases primarchs, it seams that they are revealing the ones with the most profitable factions. And the major selling factions of space marines left within the Imperium are Space Wolves and Blood Angels, so Russ has the biggest chance of being the next revealed primarch, much like his Fulgrim is likely going to be the next revealed primarch for chaos
@@valon5069 getting back any primarch is better then getting no primarch back even if its the brain dead ones .
@@peterga3658 True
If you do not like Russ I recommend the book "wolfsbane" or "Leman Russ the great wolf" both of these books really show how Russ changes and how much he tries to do better by his sons. Very good reads if you have the time!
0:55 it’ll give you such a crick in the neck.