RE: The Average Joe. They're the least vocal of all the players, the most willing to stick out rough periods, and conversely, the most likely to leave without saying what is wrong. Devs listen to the vocal minorities because it's usually the only, or the majority, of the feedback they get. It's part of a problem that I've been seeing in most of my interactions with products (an odd way to say living), including games, that the developers/ manufacturers don't use the product they make so they don't know if the feedback they're getting is good. They don't PvP so they don't know if it's good PvP. Their PvE interactions are limited to making sure player's aren't getting rich/ good loot too quickly to balance the pretend economy. They're don't see the trees because they're too busy looking out for the forest. Devs need to spend serious amounts of time in the games they're playing and hiring a "QA" team doesn't cut it. They're like politicians, the laws they pass don't really apply to them so their life experience is vastly different from the hoi polloi they pretend to represent. The laws are just how they think things should run and how they actually run is inconsequential. Good video. o7
That's the best break down of the problem with gaming in general that I've ever seen. I've never been able to quite put an explanation or pin point on it, but you nailed it.
@@BuzzCutPsycho are you getting this: "@frontend_login_queueupdate_seconds"? If so, wait until the 19k error message pops up but don't click ok, instead just alt+F4 back to the launcher. Then without quiting the launcher start the game again and it should load right in to the main menu. I know, it's weird that "press alt+F4" is the good advice here, but oddly enough it actually is this time.
6:56 Balance If you're not in a meta combat ship, you're cannon fodder. "Get gud scrub!" Dead on. Basically it means, "Play the game the way I play it or GTFO." Bro if I wanted to play "Buy the Hornet and KOS everything in sight, Arena Commander is right there. Not to mention I think we're getting the hint from Marketing that you can do a bunch of stuff other than gank meta. Maybe CIG should cater to some of that content other than fancy dressing for cannon fodder? And people do leave. Maybe 1 in 10 will make a big deal of it in Global chat, the rest leave silently. Think about it. They leave with their bad experiences and they tell everyone they know that CIG makes an unbalanced, PvP-privileged, terrible, buggy, trash "game." CIG has to push through all that negative marketing. Sure they may have had their 2nd most successful earnings year in 2024, but that is against the resistance of a decade baggage of resentful players spreading fair and also unfair bad PR holding back resources that CIG could use to develop the game. One might say "What do I care" which reveals that person to just be another thoughtless sociopath.
People do not often think about the new player experience. Which is what the people you described are not doing. Even the ones coming into this comment section display those same traits you mentioned.
you should realize, you are an alpha tester; a defacto cig intern that is there to test core game mechanics while you pay to get pegged. they implement concepts to see how feasible and costly the endeavor is, not to jerk you off and call you daddy.
Even us players that do love the game and push through the PVBs, are telling our friends to wait! Because we know, that our friends will have bad experiences. Meaning bad PR from both ends. While we are like: I hate having to start over every time a bug takes me out. Ill just buy a Nursa and a bigger ship to avoid the time sink! Oh wow, I just spent $450! that was a mistake.
I mean this as the highest compliment when I say - I started the video thinking you were a sarcastic asshole, and by the end of it my mind was completely unchanged. But I was also convinced everything you said was spot on :)
One of the things I've been arguing for for yeeeeeears is that the marker should be the ship name, not the player name. No one called it the "Han Solo:" it was the Millenium Falcon. And agreed that one of the reasons I haven't engaged in more PVP in SC is precisely because it takes SO long just to get there (and get back if you die) - I just don't have that much time available to game
I agree with a lot of points with what you say, as someone who is on your side, meaning Center/Right. Pyro is just a star system of just blowing people up just because you can - cool? Nothing really benefits you other than the enjoyment of sending someone back to Lumby, unless you get their cargo or whatever. The PvE people don't like this - obviously, and for the hard pvpers, it's gonna get old fast. I'm a veteran Tarky player and once all the traders are maxed out and tasks/quest completed, just loading into an area to just pvp is boring after awhile. Given Pyro is just brand new and introduced, hopefully CIG adds more to it in time to flesh it out more and actually gives us a reason to be there. The topic of PvP and PvE servers will definitely make the game less "lively". Obviously CIG wants PvE players, or players who don't care about pvp, but will stay on a pvp server and will do things like cargo runs etc to go to Pyro, but as you said, if you're in a cargo ship, you're getting smoked. To me personally, I think the PvP around Pyro needs to be thought out again, this is in regards to the hanger thingies that you get from contested zones, because what I have to say would definitely affect that. So we have 3 stations that have the codes right? What if, each of those Hab areas, Obituary, you know what I mean, are EACH it's own faction? Meaning if you side with Obituary faction, you join that faction and the other 2 are obviously hostile. So when you are around the pyro system, names are blue obviously represent friendly, and red is dead - duh, and friendly fire would have it's own consequences. Now, I mentioned earlier that there are obviously space dads out there who want to explore pyro, but they just get smoked because they are in a cargo ship, and even if they had a meta fighter, they couldn't dogfight at all, and then on the flip side, you have the sweaty pvp arm chair pilots who just want to fight and think that cargo hauling is for the weak and a waste of time. How do we get these people in the middle? I think gear attrition with supply/demand would fix this. The 3 major stations will have finite armor/weapon supply, dying and rekitting again and again will take supplies away and then eventually it's damn near impossible to go boots on ground with good guns/armor, or you only get partial resupply when loading up missiles/fuel. Well, that space dad is probably more than happy to do a cargo run to RESUPPLY the station with armor/guns/fuel etc. That gives the PvP players an incentive to guard the space dad while he goes to a local moon and get supplies for the faction HQ. The space dad doesn't even have to fight, he just has to get from point A to B alive and him being able to feel like contributing to a cause would probably feel great (obviously the station would pay handsomely) Low supplies = high pay, over abundance of supplies = low pay, then whatever, go back to Stanton and come back when time is needed. Even cargo missions that are no where near the hot spots and just doing their own thing, will give the PvE players SOME confidence that 1/3 of the Pyro system is friendly. It doesn't even have to be that hard for the space dad, the moons closest to each of the station would have supplies. So they don't have to travel to the center of a hotspot like jumptown to get stuff. They can do it cautiously on their local moons. This also entices the PvP... are the pvp chads going to sabotage other cargo runners and pirate the materials, or are they going to defend the fellow faction members precious cargo so they can continue to pvp fully stocked and kitted. It would create an interesting dynamic in the pyro system for resources - and remember, Pyro is a DYING system, a lot of the resources have already been extracted. Make it feel like supplies are tough to come by. The Exec hanger system... not sure how I would incorporate it back in, and then there are the people who wouldn't join a faction at all. Overall, I think CIG is really missing a VERY unique opportunity for Pyro that could really change it for the better. A game that has a great aspect for attrition is Foxhole. You die, lose the infantry kit, rekit at the HQ, but the HQ needs supplies. There are people in that game who don't give a damn about pvp, they just want to load up a cargo truck and deliver supplies and feel great about it too.
This has honestly been the answer for the debate. Make each side need the other one and not just as something to attack or a sale. It also naturally points PVPers at each other. Its why when the QT fuel nerfs were on the board, I was in favor of them. It would have gone a long way from making the ace pilot in his F7A consider what he should be doing towards the Starfarer he has in his sights. It creates a social interaction and encourages players to have some discernment. Get in good with a fueler, and he helps you get to where you need to go. In exchange, he gets some implicit and potentially explicit protection. But at the same time, if you dislike a certain group targeting their friendly fuel supply, it is a great way to set them back. As someone who is a more industrial oriented player. I don't want PVP out. I want it to be a realistic interaction with a reason and a goal beyond just the act itself. I have always felt that distilling the game down into a buggier Tarkov in space would just be wasting the promise and potential of the universe CIG is trying to make. Everyone, including the PVP sweatlords, benefits from the game becoming an interconnected experience that has an incredible amount of depth.
One thing: resources in pyro aren't rare, they are just too scattered for the large industrial infrastructure Pyrotechnic set up. It's not enough for a proper economy of scale, but more than enough for smaller operations
Weird. I have made $10mil salvaging in pyro and haven't been ganked once. Well, not successfully anyways. It's not hard to be smart about things. Don't try to mine or salvage in the super populated belts next to the most popular stations. Outfit your ships with stealth components to make it a lot harder for players to even detect you. And ultimately, cry about it if you want. A no-law system is such. This game is about making your way and being crafty, making friends and figuring it out. If that's a problem, the game just isn't for you. The game concept is just barely starting to come to fruition as well. There's a LOT of game systems and loops and balance and such coming relatively soon now that the tech is mostly done and deployed in the 4.0 preview. They are on the fast track from here on out. Game will be so much different and so much more full of content and options when it's done.
@@gnaruto7769 I'm just basing it off the fact that the mining corporations mined all the super valuable stuff and booked it before the sun cooked them. That's if I recall correctly... So I could be a little wrong in the life aspect. But yeah, if the industrial players, non pvpers, do the cargo hauling around the HQs it helps the pvpers. In the end, there could be incentives that if a faction holds something, there's rewards etc. it would bring an "unconventional" war dynamic to star citizen, meaning it's not actual militaries, it's militias fighting for territory. Think of powerful militia groups like former Blackwater, or the Russian Wagner Group. I'm sure CIG is going to expand and make more systems that cater to specific audiences. Pyro = pvp war, system (x,y,z) = pve war.
Just resorting to killing people because you are bored is pretty bad, I used to do it as well but it got old REALLY fast and I shed those hairs well over 15 years ago. What I see a lot is that there is this assumption that lawless means kill everyone, it is not and should be discouraged. For example, when you are just preyed on at a cargo elevator when you are fiddling with boxes that don't want to come out of your ship and then when you walk up to the console pew pew you are dead. that player can now just walk up to the terminal and lower your cargo to get free aUEC. This should not be possible, at a minimum the outpost should turn hostile and you should be unable to sell at that outpost until your lack of reputation with them has been resolved. This means that the person who just killed you is forced to move the cargo and is facing resistance from the outpost at the same time... it gives them a problem to solve as well. And the escort? I've seen this argument so many times and you agree with me that this is stupid. Nobody is going to sit around for an hour and then when someone shows up... the person you are protecting is still going to be targeted! It solves nothing.
Oh, I forgot to mention that I never question why a game dies. I always question myself why people have to be so hostile towards each other, this doesn't just apply to PvP and I've been playing Star Citizen long enough to endure some very salty players... Remember the 3.18 days where Port Olisar/Port Tressler/Everus Harbor were littered with hundreds of ships? Or when people intentionally blocked access to terminals? Or maybe you were just getting killed doing a box delivery and the guy in chat told you that you were exploiting? When people experience hardship with the game, they seem to feel the need to celebrate this on other players of the very same game and get satisfaction out of it as it has no negative feedback loop to affect them.
We need that player reputation system already. EDIT: lemme add to this before I get misunderstood. CIG have stated before they wanted the reputation system to both reflect the reputation the player has earned with factions in the game, and with other players. Clear case in point for medical beacons whenever they get that working again as an example, but also transport/service beacons, hiring a skilled engineer to tweak your thrusters, and similar things. It would go a long way to help create trust in the game as designed so far. Most everything else I'd want to add is still in CIG's court on where they want to take it, but the recent citcon has not filled me with much hope beyond leaning more towards the "left" of the horseshoe. I barely have enough time as is to even make do with the bugs eating away at my ingame wallet with all the time and money wasted just restocking myself and my ships for every loss involved. And even if somehow they create the most stable of games in the (admittedly highly likely far) future, I still wont risk it because of how the game's structured and designed so far (not to mention the higher hardware demands of PvP in general. No, not the controls, the actual PC you need to NOT be a jittery fuck in a shootout) And I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel where I'll leave this game for good.
"Just hire an escort." I wish it would work, but BARCAP doesn't work in SC. I can ingress on a VIP without fear. Defenders cannot push away aggressors. The flight combat loop isn't tuned for it.
> I can ingress on a VIP without fear. Defenders cannot push away aggressors. Sounds like pve BH experience )) When was the last time you've tried to pvp solo versus C2? How much time in minutes it took you to disable C2? All this time escort will channel their DPS right in to your back. You might say "I'll bring friends" but then it looks like problem is in numbers, not in imposibility to defend. What if escort has twice more friends?
turrets need to be dangerous and an actual threat to fighters capable of destroying them better than if you were in a fighter otherwise theres no point to ever fight in multicrew and its just more hp for you to try and run away.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I'm of the idea that this would work to resounding success. Elite Dangerous has it and, though it doesn't deter the occasional ganker, most of the time people on your same superpower will leave you alone at least. Creates a slight.. maybe a bit shaky sense of trust at least
i think you have a point here because it also prevents or regulates huge mega orgs/corps/guilds that can monopolize an entire game, like eve online. but also, prevent the stale/boring WoW red vs blue factions.
Perm death might have worked if they made it less arcady. That would also have meant less player on player action too. A big challenge they are going to have to solve is the losing all your shit on death. That works when you don’t have to spend hours staging. Literally manually putting in water, food, weapons, etc… Or when player hostility isn’t so rampant. They need to work out its vision for the game without the many contradictory ideas.
Perm Death is Bad for ANY MMO or game for that matter (when it isn't something you can choose). I would never buy a game again if they all just came "IRON MAN MODE"... like fuk that tedious nonsense! no time for it!
I don't want Tarkov in Space. I hate Tarkov. I'd rather play Fortnite in Space, but I hate Fortnite too. Before I joined OGRE I was a carebear, a particularly loud one at that, because I saw alot of PvP players as people who do endless posturing and yet the PvE players doing even more posturing somehow. OGRE was the first org I joined where I found something genuinely fun to do in Star Citizen, because we literally just farmed salt from the Arena Commander pros and it was glorious. It turns out, most PvPers are worse than npc pilots in the PU when the servers are running smooth. I support things like GrieferNET because they are actively showing CIG what their design choices allow. I don't know if making PvP more akin to an arena shooter wish ships in Star Citizen is the best idea but I'm willing to try it. I personally avoid PvP mmos for things like PSO, Destiny, and Warframe, though we don't talk about Destiny anymore. Those are PvE games, and they succeed not just because it'd be stupid to friendly fire teammates in Warframe, though that would be funny for a solid hour, but because under PvP, PvE, whatever, these games are just good games, with good progression, and good systems that I'm sorry to say, Star Citizen lacks. Star Citizen is like a giant sandbox with a few discombobulated toys in it and no real direction, because implementing any mechanics involving progression will be directly at odds with, idk, losing your gear when you die, and most of all, losing your time. The only thing Star Citizen has over a game like NMS for me, is the combat, and fine, the graphics, and I'm sorry, unless I specifically want good space combat, other games fill that void. This is why I keep quitting SC for PvE centric games. I can't answer whether or not SC should have open world and sometimes non consensual PvP, because I'm sure there's a way, but SC needs to be a game first, before deciding anything else, and right now, it's just a tech demo that's trying to be a life simulator with the punishing systems of an extraction shooter. That's a ridiculously bad combination. P.S. BDO is okay but only because the devs care about the game and the players enough to make its PvP/E formula work. You don't lose jack when a player kills you other than 5 minutes of your time, but that's okay because it's not Battlefield so if you don't want it, a 5 minute loss every few hours is nothing. SC wants to fix PvP, make it so you lose 5 minutes of time and progression. Total. This counts menus. This counts time to farm your loadout. This counts time spent walking back and flying to where you were. It sounds impossible in current SC because it is.
I always hear positive things about BDO and that makes me wish I got into it when it was fresh. As for everything you said about SC you ain't wrong. The Starkov stuff to me is a huge turn off and I really hope this isn't the direction we are going with things.
It sounds impossible, but I personally don't want that, if they reduce the entire game to where everything just takes 5 minutes, I'll leave and go to another game.
I like your analogy of the horseshoe model which made me think about a related model, the three prong pitchfork. 1. PVE: Left 2. PVS: Center. Player vs Server. PVE and PVP have to deal with CIG's server bugs and of course everyone's worst enemy... the elevators. 3. PVP: Right Perhaps this is one of those few middle ground topics where PVE/PVP have something in common.
Great video. Thanks for your insight on the matter. One thing I hope they focus on, which you didn't really discuss are the Org / grouping implementations. Having features like a "guild roster" when you log in will be great and help people group up more. I'm not a great PvP'er but I love it. I love it more when I'm grouped up because I stand more of a chance and its fun to chat with others on discord during those engagements. I'm in an Org right now but its a bit disorganized because its hard to getting into servers, partying up is kinda whack etc. I hope they focus more on implementing stuff for Orgs in game soon. Give us an interface like in WoW where we can see our whole Org. I know this is in development and will those out that like to group up.
or have PvP servers/areas you can go to for that kind of game play. Im not against PvPers but I spend an hour getting logged in fighting bad servers and finally get into a casual loop only to be "pirated" for contracted cargo they cant sell lol
@@peregrinusfalco SC is already way below that. As all the info we have says that SC has a concurrent player number of around 2.5k to 5k. SC is not that big of a game player wise. Everyone sees the big number on funding and is shocked. Thinks the game is massive, but that's been gained over 12 years. It's really not all that much.
I'm not convinced that PvP is the most popular format. The inherit nature of PvP games is that they require players concentrating into a smaller number of games. PvE games don't require the same concentration of players. You should find there are more PvE games on the Steam market than PvP. You can't draw an accurate conclusion by looking at where players are concentrated at.
Sure I can. I could even point to the most popular games people watch on Twitch. It's always PvP centric. Reality is PvE gets boring, fast, and takes more time and effort to develop content for. In PvP games the players are the content. Bigger reality is most games suck dong nowadays so people just play the same old crap. I know I do.
@@BuzzCutPsycho PvE is boring to WATCH, when you're in control, it's fine. I could counter that Twitch thing with EvE Online, renowned for it's harsh PvP landscape, has around 70 to 80% PvE players who never leave Empire space pretty much since it started 2 decades ago. The reality is most of the game currently is PvE & Griefers, with a very small amount of PvP'ers. I say griefers because there's nothing implemented to justify the insane unbalance in risk vs reward the PvE players have compare to the "PvP'ers". No patrols, guards don't work, armistice space most often than not works AGAINST you instead of helping, no reputation system loss, no way to report players permanently as criminals and prison is a litteral joke. It's also ridiculous to consider SC a PvP game, with what they announced for DoaS, with a inheritance tax and reputation loss will end up pretty harsh if you fight and die a lot. More so since the more violent your death, the less likely you will be to come back in one piece or at all. PvP being allowed doesn't mean they intend to make it worth doing. Also currently Pyro is pretty lawless, nice. Do you really think that's going to last? When reputation comes online, i'm pretty darn sure it will end up like Stanton, except the "law" will be Pirate gangs, Xenothreat and Citizens for Prosperity defending their turf and allies instead of the UEE and Corpos like in Stanton. They said quite a few times we aren't heroes, we're the little guys and while we might influence some factions, we'll never rule or make the law anywhere. I personally don't mind either way, i like doing both, i got PvP ships and "logistics" ships. I do whatever feels fun at the moment so either way it goes i'm fine with it. I'm just saying though, i really don't think this will end up a PvP centric game, if that's the only thing you're looking forward too, i'm affraid you'll be terribly dissapointed.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Excluding the rare few, most games entirely focused on PvP end up dead in the water. Lets look at BDO, BDO was a PvP game, the PvP is all but dead and now its basically the AFK game where you sit there and fish for money. PvPers are and will always be the reason for major changes in favor of PvE, Pyro will see changes and it will be changes that PvPers will probably quit over. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for PvP as long as I'm not being forced into something that will largely be one sided because you got the first 50 shots off before I could react accordingly. Fair and balanced PvP is what makes PvP good, everyone is for the most part equal footing (FF14 PvP is trash) and it results in far better fights that leaves everyone happy even if they're the one who ends up losing, which is why a game like halo at least back in its hay day was so great.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I don't think streaming stats are a good thing to look at seeing as just chatting was by far the most watched thing on twitch. We could look at game like BG3, black myth wukong, Elden Ring, Minecraft, Warframe, Helldivers, Tetris, or WOW to see it isn't all about PVP
I think that the best way to handle PVE vs PVP is from a content angle. Currently, PVE and PVP are across all game loops, thus there aren't any content ceilings/walls. If PVE and PVP were in-game structured with different spheres (centre of gravity) then co-existence is more likely. However, all roads lead to aUEC bank balances. This needs to change. Factions and NPC escorts would go far to fix this. Faction choice and persistent reputation/membership needs to matter. Currently, only aUEC matters.
Excellent and well thought out points, however I fear that it will be drowned out by a lot of the noise coming from both end of the horseshoe and everyone is going to end up unhappy.
I'm happy that there will be way more PVP involved as I run fighter escort/security detail as I have my own org. But i agree with what you're saying about the PVP mechanics, but then it is a bit of an after thought as I believe that initially the game was geared more on the PVE/exploration side of things for the most part, with only the occasional piracy/griefer issue. But now it's more dangerous in the verse, which i'm fine with as I make more money escorting haulers, salvagers and miners for a 10-20% fee from their hauls and can make up to 200k per couple of hours or so.
Love the discussion, but I feel the need to point out that when you were listing the top games on steam you were not looking at true MMOs (those with thousands of players on the same server). Never the less, I agree with your overall assessment, though I am not sure you will ever get the two opposing sides to agree on any style of game play.
Something I would like to see to help with the situation is getting the new social stuff online and fixing the voip as well as hailing too. Maybe quick hail commands like friend or foe hail signals or surrender signals. Other than that I actually enjoyed living in a pyro town for two days taking apart abandoned ships and throwing them into other people ships until a Polaris shot me
Love the video, lots of common sense. And I love SC, while I only PvE mostly for the fact that any game has balance issues and there is always a meta that makes you second class unless you follow the meta and this for me is not fun in a competitive setting. And while in 5+ years of playing casually, I have only died maybe 2 times from a greifer while in a city area, I only really run into players that kill me if I have a bounty on me ( which is rare) or if I go looking for a fight. I love that I have a huge space out there I can go do whatever I want and not have the issue of PvP constantly, but when I do find myself in that situation it spices things up from the mundane we pvers can get into. Also, I don't know why people complain about pyro being a heavy pvp zone, that's awesome for me, let all the people that love pvp fight each other in a lawless area that don't have to worry about prison sentences, keep them there in pyro, better for those that only like pve.
Good arguments, heard 1/3 of this, here a short thought then i listen on: i am casual like average joe but i need to know who killed me for several reasons: do i flee when i See that player/Group again after got splashed, do i want revenge, do i want to talk and so on. Without knowing there is no gameplay!
I think the main problem for solos is the moment they have to leave their ship and other players can simply blow it up. I don't understand why signatures of landed ships are so high, why landing pads aren't shielded, why turrets don't shoot people with active weapons, why npcs don't tell you to put your gun away, etc. It just feels bad to lose your ship while you aren't even in it. I still have a hard time agreeing with the time sink argument. Unless you are loading cargo it takes barely any time to get back to where u were. Maybe 10 minutes if it's on the other side of the system. But maybe I'm just good at time management. I first claim my ship then put my prepared gear sets on during the timer and when I am in QT I check my missions or get something to drink / use the bathroom. I actually appreciate the qt downtime for allowing me to step away for a moment without feeling like I miss out on something.
Let's ignore cargo. The issue boils down to what it has always come down to. 1. Bad respawn mechanics. Using a mobile spawn for example over rights your station spawn, which means you ALWAYS end up back on a home planet. The best home planet for that (in Stanton) is A18 due to Cubby Blast. 2. No "loadouts" or a shopping that makes sense. 3. NOT RESPAWNING IN YOUR HANGER AHH. The solutions are super simple. You have respawn options (Home, Bound Station, Mobile Spawn, Nearest Spawn) QoL Weapon Loadouts. LET PEOPLE SPAWN IN HANGERS. I don't want to bore you, I say the same thing to you over and over so I don't want you to think I am some crazy person with dementia. It isn't about instant gratification, It is about just making the mundane easier to get through.
I think they are going for hangar (re)spawning. They had it in a few weeks ago but had to remove it for some technical reason. So I absolutely think it's coming back probably with more hangar customization. Loadouts I agree with. They have to redo the whole inventory anyway. Right now I prepare stacks of ammo and medpens. It takes maybe 1 minute to equip my character. So not a big deal tbh. Regarding the respawns I'm OK with several if it's limited and can't be abused. Right now we abuse the respawn mechanics to transport keycards to our home location. Just put all your keys in your inventory, reset spawn and backspace and you have transported them in an instant to your home location with 0 risk because your gear gets stored where you spawn. Stuff like this shouldn't exist. But I don't want to sound like a broken record arguing about this either.
@BuzzCutPsycho this should be a thing. There is a medical zone inside the hanger, make that a respawn bed for your home planet. And even having 3 spawn zones. 1 is a vehicle, one is a selected station, and one is your home resident hospital or home resident hanger hospital.
I think big ships with Multicrew will only be usefull within Organizations. But even here we have the problem: what should they be used, let's say a Capital Ship, for? And when it comes to connecting PvP with PvE Players, I think an old Game named Lineage2 has made it great in it's first 10 years, before other MMO's got more popular. This game implemented Areas holded by a Clan (in SC it would be an Organization) which was able to set a Tax-Rate int oevery Store in the Area and held a Castle, which was the only Place where the needed Top-Items could be crafted. And Crafting could only be done by a special Class on Chaaracters, so: by the players. The amount that could be produced was low, so it could never crash the Game-Mechanic, and the controled Areas and Castles were open to be attacked and conquered at least once a week, for a fixed time window, so other Clans who registered for it could get a hand on it if they holded the Throne Room (Operatoiion-Center in SC maybe?) at the end of the time. It was Mass-PvP at it's finest, Clans joined in Allies and min-maxing was useless since a "Armed Robe-Wearer" would have died in seconds, even why fighting some Guard-NPCs of a Castle. You needed to bring your own Power, your hardest Armor ad the best Gear, just like the others, or you wouldn't have any chance. PvP was well mixed with the economy, that was the key-element. And even in small one-on-one-PvP it was good. You could attack everybody you want everywhere you want. If they fought back, it was a consensual fight. If he didn't attack you back, you could kill him, of course. But there wouldn't be any loot from his body and you were marked "red". So every NPC would attack you, every player got your position and was allowed to attack you, and if you would get killed, you can be looted by them. Just fit this into SC in a logical way. No Looting after PK when it comes to the things he wears, but looting his ship? Why not. But you would need to be fast, because a distress signal and warning is out and there could be others that come for you. As said in the vid: fleeing is nearly always an option, so this would be a way to make it better for everyone, since it brings the possibility to make PvP.. well, maybe not consensual in the game, but comes as near as it possibly could be. Option 1: Escaping. Okay. Option 2: Try to fight. Own decision, own risk, why not? Decision 3: Ignoring the guy who attacks. I could, but maybe I lose what I worked for in a fight I can't win? Just to hope somebody else gets him? What would I have from such a playstyle? So, back to Option 1... At least those systems would prevend senseless kills in Stanton from people who just like to do it just because they can, but give everyone the option to enjoy it when they want it. In Pyro... well, that's another Story, but Pyro was build for every kind of Outlaw-Gaming, so... Have fun. But even here something like the Castle- and Orgasystem could have a nice impact and make the playing more appealing and gives it more meaning.
You hit the nail on the head for me with the time sink it takes with PVP, I'm not against it remotely, while I mostly do PVE activities, the few PVP encounters I've had were fun and contested zones are fun, but the time sink if you die without a group and having to go, claim your ship, sit around for 10 minutes, by back new gear, etc just make it not worth it to consistently play PVP when I don't have infinite freetime
PvE is broken, PvP is too broken to be remotely respectable or fun. Griefing and just playing the game right now to piss people off in the PU is just a good way to scare off players from considering playing when the game ISN'T broken. It's just unproductive and douchey right now. I'd recommend people who want to do that, check out CoD. Want to PvP in this alpha for some reason? Go play arena commander where you can actually PvP on a semi levelish playing field.
This is exactly how I feel with the game as a whole. I want the PVPers to understand this, its not advocating for PVE at all I still want this game to be PVA (PVPVE). However when it comes into a testing environment its far far easier to keep the system as PVE. Its easier to test in a PVE environment and that is what CIG should have been doing from the get-go in the PTU. Make sure the core systems of the game work at the same time nurturing the game's community into a healthy standpoint. You'll have Arena Commander to playtest all the PVP aspects of the game, as well the PVP mechanics of the game in a more localized and closed environment. In this case I will 100% criticize CIG on their poor playtesting.
I agree but I also think it's important for them to understand the ways the systems are being abused to better implement more cohesive systems in the future. I dont support griefing, but it has its place.
The idea that if the game was fixed and worked well the Care Bears wouldn’t be complaining is dumb. These space dads don’t play other games and it’s obvious. No other mmo community calls simple player killing griefing. It doesn’t not scare off new players, it pisses on space dads that spend their paychecks on digital vehicles that they think will give them high social status. They soy out all the time and are narcissists that expect any other players to revolve around their playstyle. It’s not about time. These Care Bears get their egos bruised every time they are killed. Your comment proves you don’t understand the problem
Pyro's problems are more deep seated. Having had an essentially for practical purposes lawless Stanton they doubled down. It might have been better to have a higher sec one so that the two systems actually differed properly. Pyro so far seems to offer very little if you dont have razor sharp reflexes, 20:20 vision and hours of time to practice.
As you said. People will take the surest way to win. I played EVE-Online some 20 years ago. At some point Goon fleet arrived, thousands of less experienced people who grouped up to take over areas. It was kinda fun popping their cheap ships with precision strikes but on a whole it was hard to actually make much difference against them as a smaller corporation. And this is what I wonder how Star Citizen is expected to handle. Thousands of people will join in same organisations and if they gather as many people in same place as server will allow then how are other players expected to fight them? This especially with player owned outposts.
Player owned anything is usually the result of the systems you mentioned. I been saying factions forever and factions protect everyone else from this insane nonsense. But modern devs forget the lessons of old and think that they can do better. PROTIP: They cant.
I fall center left on the PvE / PvP horseshoe. (Brilliant analogy btw). I don't usually seek out PvP unless there is a "Locust" who I absolutely love killing with all my heart. I prefer to exist in a universe where players can turn on you at any point. It makes the mundane PVE content so much more interesting when you need to keep watching your back. I just hope CIG find a good balance with the future Reputation System and risk / reward gameplay.
As a old school player that started out on Diablo and UO in the 90s, I loved your based perspective. When Pyro came out my clan went all in on Pirating. I was wanting to focus on anti piracy and was hoping the broken bounty system for players would have worked and made good money, but I was out voted. Most of what they do is literally search and destroy. They made about 15 million high jacking a freighter with a full load of cargo in about 3 hours. Due to bugs in the game and my clan just griefing other players, I have almost lost all interest in this game. I love PvP but I dont get a kick out of ruining someone else's play time. We are all just trying to chill after a long days work. As is, Pyro is not much of a challenge, its just degenerates shooting people in the back.
What is funny is the money means nothing. There is so much wrong with the game, that included, that once you realize nothing matters you go and do something else.
Exactly. I feel like a lot of the conflict comes from CiG itself as well. The scope and tone of the game has changed multiple times since I first pledged back at the kickstarter. It doesn’t know what game it wants to be. And since there’s never been a consistent vision it’s left the community stuck in speculation which has allowed the two sides to grow and become toxic to one another. I’m more on the PVE side of the middle so I’m not a huge fan of what it is right now, but I love the contested zones and already have two executive ships (without the duping shit that’s happening now). I feel the best way to unify the community would be to do what you’ve pretty much covered: remove the incredibly boring, frustrating and time consuming grind you have to go through after death to get back into it. People aren’t afraid of losing gear (contrary to popular belief) they are afraid of losing an hour of prep time in less than two minutes of usually one sided combat.
Time. Nailed it. The devs touch on everything related to that, they make ships and player characters more tanky thinking that will fix things, when the crux of the issue is the fact I have no way of saving loadouts, so I spend my valuable time not playing the game, being in transit on some hyperloop or tram, waiting on my ship to come up the elevator and so on, there is so many things that turn the game into molasses that if they'd finally adress that issue, we could have a really interesting game, but the hills CIG chooses to die on that they refuse to change negatively impact all other gameplay systems and especially affect combat, both PvE and PvP.
I've never seen your content before, it is an interesting take and conversation that is going on. I mainly focus on the PVE game play in SC. I feel there are several good points you made, I think you might have missed some also. The horseshoe, is good, I feel the part missed is talking about the population % of those groups. I know in the past year or two CIG has indicated the players are 20% PVP focused and 80% PVE focused. My best guess is PVE only is about 20%, 20% PVP only, 60% that mainly want PVE with some PVP. That 60% in the middle is the group they need to focus on, to find ways to get them to go to places where pvp is more encouraged like pyro. Something you are 1000% correct on, time and trust. I don't trust anyone! if I see you in the wild I have sight on, if you get to close I am shooting first dealing with the CS after. Time: why would I invest time and effort in learning PVP skills when those systems will be changed 3-4 times before the game hits 1.0? I mean look at how often the flight model changes. I think your biggest miss is your part about ignore the carebears (even though at the start you mention not making fun of them🤣). You make the argument everyone loves PVP cause most of the steam top games are FPS is laughable. Comparing FPS arena style games to a MMO, really? Maybe you should be looking at other MMO for comparison? Every MMO out there is PVE focused. Look at New World, it started as a PVP MMO, in beta they realized almost all their players wanted it to be a more PVE game so they got the PVP toggle, they scrambled to turn the PVP game into a PVE game and it flopped. Look back at MMO games in history Everquest, Wow, ark, ESO, Guild Wars, FF, Star wars, and yes even Star Citizen the majority of the MMO player base leans heavily to PVE. Without a good solid PVE game SC will no last long. Seriously go look at the MMO player base numbers of the past. i am hoping that in time SC will figure out what many games have failed to do, get a MMO game where both can be possible. Where the most hard core PVE people can still get into a little PVP action, without being the guys in pyro who can't leave the station cause they get killed.
Welcome to the channel! I am not for everyone though, so not everyone stays. :) Would this be a better source of info for MMO populations? ironforge.pro/population In my experience with that godforsaken game the most popular servers were always PvP, with a handful of PvE ones being popular. And the reason I did not mention MMO games is because SC has far more in common with shooters than it does tab target mmos.
I love the faction idea, I think one other idea with factions can be hiring faction npc ships as protection when reaching hire level of trust with that faction. That allows for NPC escort ships to protect industrial ship on top of buffing the industrial ships as defensive ships that can take a beating and also keep the smaller fighters at bay.
Great video. I agree with the most of the analysis on PvE/PvP players and the importance of catering to the average players. However, I don’t want to see SC become PS1 with a faction system. Maybe that can be the story in one star system, but I don’t want to see it everywhere.
So, I am not normally a pvp player. I am more a PVE, storyline, side quest etc kind of person. I am fairly new to SC so I am still learning how to play, where to find stuff, etc (kinda hard in 4.0 atm... lol) but I do find myself bopping around in Pyro, exploring, look for shops to find new stuff to buy etc. With that said, I am fully aware I am in an area where I can be attacked and I am willing, obviously, to take that risk. Most times, it's been pretty smooth. I think I was attacked once out of my 3 or 4 times going into Pyro so far. Not a bad ratio. Knowing I am going in, I go in minimally, with no gear etc, so I am not even worth targeting. lol. One thing I think would help is, keeping our stuff, or at least allow us to insure our armor/weapons/etc. Dying at the moment, fully equipped is a huge pain in the ass unless your buying sets/weaons etc in groups of 10... lol. There are too many bugs, issues etc that allow a smooth pvp experience right now. But to really get the most people involved, lower the risk a bit in any number of ways.
I'm in the middle of your horseshoe example. If PvP players and PvE players are separated because of the extremes on both sides, I'm setting my PC on fire and walking away from gaming entirely. I'm pushing 50 and enjoying the adrenaline rush of good PvP, and I like to chill out with casual PvE occasionally. I also play a lot of Tarkov with 100k+ kits on the regular. The thought of PvP being anything like any other MMO gives me anxiety. Where I have to join some special mode like Arena Commander and where my rewards mean jack and shit in the PU. As far as min/maxing goes, I think it's prevalent in all games with a PvP element, and that sucks. Star Citizen has over 100 ships, and only 4 are viable to be a top-tier PvP'er. At the end of the day, statistics are to blame. Some game developer out there has to break the mold. Stop assigning numerical values to gear, ships, or weapons. Numbers are absolute. And higher numbers will always be higher than lower numbers. I know that sounds stupid, but it is. Real-world weapons don't have stats like DMG. They have stats like velocity, effective range, rate of fire, and armor penetration ability based on distance to target. I've seen a .22 do some severe damage to a person, and I've seen a .45 fail to take a suspect down. If real-world guns had stats like video game guns, every cop in the country would use the same weapon. Every army of every nation would use the same rifle. Every gun in the real world has potential one-shot power. It just depends on the situation and the person using the gun. Star Citizen needs to rework their weapons and get away from stat systems that are 20 years old. If they don't, people will always use min/max, find the best weapon/gear combo, and never bother with anything else because why? It wouldn't be a good way to spend their time. Why use a weapon with inferior stats? Just use the best one and troll your opponents. Why try to do PvP in a Merlin? Total waste of time when you could take out your F-7.
What if the owner of a multi crew ship could assign it as an armistice zone at will. Like who let's everyone on a ship be armed. Isn't that why they have gun racks and armories?
You may want to check out Infinity: Battlescape. Also, not all MMO combat is small-minded arenas. Guild Wars' World vs World game mode pits player alliances against each other in a tug of war game on huge maps. Each round lasts a week and it contains both, scripter and player-driven events. It has its own rewards track with unique items and abilities. You are not penalized for not participating as most rewards can be obtained in other PvE or PvP activities. Something like that would work very well for SC.
Good takes. Remembering it's just a game removes the stress from pvp, I think the entire sc community should remember that. Besides, it's not like it matters if someone gets in the way of me finishing a mission or blows me up trading/mining, there's no point to making money or earning rep. The last session I played, I just ran around looting aztalan helmets and suits from pyro outposts cause they look cool. Anything in atmo was KoS, but players at stations were never aggressive, so I live and let live. Probably just refueling or forced to eat/drink like I was. I don't attribute being pk'd randomly to malice, and I don't pk out of malice. Like you said it's low trust. They're just doing what I would to them - neutralize a potential threat before it poses an actual one. If they ever remove safe zones I'm lighting up the entire station cause why should I trust anyone else won't do the same. As for the carebear attitude, idk man if I'm running cargo and get pirated that's just gameplay. If only self destructing wiped out my cargo too. If I can't have it, neither can you. Scorched earth baby.
Personally I just hope armor/ thick shields changes everything for multi crew ships. Something like size 1 guns can damage small ships, but no good for mediums. Size 2 can damage small ships armor, but not mediums. Size 3 for mediums, size 4 for large. Size 5 for sub capital. And size 6 really being what’s needed tor capital ships. This would also balance out a lot of fighters with super high dps vs what size ships they are actually effective against. Shucks it might even help with the imbalance of shooting at a small ship from a large one and not really being able to land any shots. This and just making aiming turrets not suck donkey butt.
Nice vid. Sums up SC and human nature well. Balance is needed so that path of least resistance is much less defined. I don’t know though how you have a game driven by a PVE economy while making risk to these players as they invest their time acceptable. Industrial ships are,Unfortunately, designed in the game to be weak. This is a massive flaw in SC. Currently though and strangely, SC feels like it’s being built for the players that like to crash and burn games then move on to the next one.
I've seen a few murderhobos around places like Shephard's Rest just blowing up every parked ship they see but I think there's possibly some misattribution by the PVP avoiders. The AI now can actually be a threat; I jumped to a location at Pyro 1 and was met by 5 AI ships that immediately locked onto me once I arrived and before I came out of QT and regained shields. They were ruthless and I barely made it out alive. If you were caught by surprise, it'd be easy to assume it was from a player because the AI has never been a threat.
It's nice to hear someone talking sense. Though I wonder if the huge time investment for 2 minutes of pvp is a type of anti-pvp deterrent. Problem is that losing is so painful that the pvpers resort to ganking where they can't lose.
What is described in this video suggests someone who calls themselves a PvPer shy away from fighting a near peer competitor. I would love to call this cowardly but it’s exactly what you should in the real world as combat; but this is a game. Waiting until someone is on the ground and in the least position fight back is not PvP and shouldn’t share the title.
Yesterday in my Zeus, I got ganked at Pyro gateway so fast that I couldn't tell who or what hit me. So I spawned my Gladius, twice, to see if I could even the odds, but I didn't fare any better either time, and ended up switching servers to make my escape. Fortunataly, such encounters are rare, four times in six years! I think it's also true that too be good at PVP one needs to think and act like a brutal predator to come out on top, and that's a skill that, I can imagine, takes time and commitment, unless of course your a natural predator, to which most people are not. This is why Countries have military boot camps, where they train sheep to be wolves. Maybe Star Citizen should have such a game loop.
I bet a faction system that allowed such natural predators to be on your side and break up the gate campers for people such as yourself would be a better fix!
To me, the real issue isn't about PvE or PvP, but about criminality: currently, it is possible to remove any risk involved with criminality, which should never be an option. By removing risks, we also remove consequences. Here, the risk is to be caught doing something illegal and gain CS. While the consequences would be to be hunted by players and NPC. It shouldn't just be possible to remove the risk, it should just be possible to make it slower. Example: disabling a Comm Array should only remove the immediate risk, but a gameplay solution should still exist to report crimes, like bringing back a ship's black box, or a character mobiglass. Like this, it should always be possible to pay for the crime committed.
I have no real answer to give a "risk" or "punishment" to a crime focused player. Punishment is not something I am keen on in games, sadly, there is no way with the way the game is setup to make it fair for the victim either. It is a deep issue.
The covered the biggest single issue for me. As someone who enjoys the industrial gameplay I have zero chance of surviving an encounter. And where you were able to escape in the Terrapin it is often not an option. You can't run from an F7A in a Starlancer/Reclaimer. Maybe you could if it was shields on/guns off in NAV but that is another subject. For me this imbalance and CIG's love affair with light fighters is why I am moving more and more to the left
Being an average joe, i like pvp & pve equally I'd do escort and turrets for the right amount, or friends (everyone has a price) Give me an ability to Quantum boost away when im pve farming, ganking and pirating blows, but i know its a part of the game Keep the interdiction in, i might give it a go oneday, and it will serve future loops for more than pirating loop Why isn't there a squad channel?, and easy hover players name to glance rep while squadding, its surely needed for future medical loop Contract creation on repeat murder hobos for personal vengeance...? yeh id pay for that ( if i'm loaded i'll send the hounds cus why should i waste my own time?), because i can and lols I like the thrill of looking over my shoulder, so no pve mode for me, and no pve server
I'd have more fun overall if everything wasn't so undependably broken But as far as turret play goes, i'd do ir for $, or the mission, or to help a friend Admittedly there are far more enjoyable loops
Q: 'What keeps you from engaging pvp more often?' A: the insane Hornet meta that makes 100 other ships absolutely pointless. Nerf that shit, or bring everybody else up to par so they at least have advantages and/or options.
Yeah, it's either single seater, or get ganked RP ship. I'm back at the lvl where a hornet is free lunch when i'm in a gladius, but the point stands - balance is terrible.
Again, thanx for the vid, sums it up quite well. However, I really don't see a good and viable way to bring both game loops (PvE/PvP) together in ONE game. The examples of the most played games (CS2, DOTA etc) are PVP only. Also in the list - for ex. - is BG3, a PvE only game. So, if you want to be a truly sucessful game, you need to be either PvP only or PvE only. Also, PvE could be so hard, that even the most senior PvP pro would wet his pants - it's just, they tune down the bots to make them killable ;) - however, due to the rise of AI we will see more interesting content here in the mid future, I assume.
I could mention WoW. ironforge.pro/population/era/ Shows PvP/PvE population divide. But, if I was about bringing them together factions is truly the only way. Foxhole is a good example of that. You have logistics PvE players and combat PvP players. Both depend on one another. There are ways it can be done but it would need an entire new video.
@@BuzzCutPsycho U R right - one thing why WoW is still so successful is the separation of PvE and PvP servers. I think thats also what most SC players would like to see here. U mentioned it in your vid, "PvP specs" are completely different to "PvE specs" - in any game, I guess. So, converting that to SC: if U play PvP you choose different ships compared to PvE. This makes a confrontation inheritently unfair, as u stated in your vids :) However, similar to WoW, even on PvE servers there should be areas where PvP is in place (like the faction-camps of the opposing faction and dedicated PvP zones like the CZs. If we would get that, SC would be much more viable for more players - yay!
you cant use most popular games on steam as a metric, counter strike is in no way comparable to star citizen, you should instead look at the popularity of open PVP MMOs which is what star citizen is
sure its a fair metric. it is a pvp game, and sc is a shooter nowadays anyway. I could look at MMOFPS games, when I was at SOE PlanetSide 2 hit over 1 million ACTIVE accounts, it of course tanked because the game was bad and mismanaged. But it was very popular and interest was there. New World hit over 1m, also a PvP centric games. The thing about these games is they were done poorly, it wasnt the pvp that ruined them, but how poorly it was put in.
Why don't we look at new PvE mmos in the last 10 years? Oh basically none of them survived the first year after launch. Looks like it isn't as easy as PvE = success and PvP = failure.
@@BuzzCutPsycho By that metric you could look at WOW with their 7+ Million and classic with 8+ million active players as the gold standard of MMOs. I will argue that having split servers with no way to transfer things between the 2 is the best solution giving both sides what they want.
Outside of the usual Spectrum noise, I don’t see Pyro being actually a problem for PVP/PVE. In the last few days I explored Pyro solo in a starter ship and I barely seen any other players. Hopefully by the time PVP can be a serious loop in SC, CIG have fixed the servers and add enough features to make the game more interesting.
You hit the nail on the head. When CIG flattened ships into strict roles with the weapons, handling and defensive changes, they sucked the fun out of it. One of the most satisfying things to do is outskill somebody in a lesser ship. The underdog win is an archetype. Running away sucks, but you have no other choice. I used to have fun heroing in my 125a, but now there's almost no chance. The game doesn't respect the player's time.
Yes. Some form of turret automation is necessary. Additionally a defensive weapon layer for multicrew ships. Say you can outfit your turrets with BSG style flak cannons that make short work of fighters. A great defense means that at the same time limits offensive capability, so for example heavy multicrew fighters might still choose guns if they intend to hit above their size. The PVP potential between dedicated PVP ships and multirole ships is often an issue in such games, like E:D. You wanna be the do-everything millenium falcon who can stealthily smuggle cargo while blasting TIEs left and right...in such games of course, you dont stand a chance against dedicated combat ships - i mean, it has to be that way to some extent, otherwise why implement combat ships... I think PVP rewards should be bigger, multicrew ships should get a defensive layer that is not running away and it all needs to be carefully balanced so that skill still comes into play. Otherwise you are just creating a rock-paper-scissors system where the outcome of any fight is dictated by the ships in use, when in reality there should be much more factors taken into consideration. Then again, there should be a benefit to having a player in a turret instead of an NPC. How to go about that? I'm not sure. I'm the type of player who plays with the same 1-5 friends every night in different games. I rarely play alone, because the social aspect is important to me, but I don't have time or capacity to join huge-ass guilds which require months of commitment, bureaucracy and organization just to play a game. I think mid-sized multicrew ships (2-4) crew need to get a super duper buff. This is the kind of group size where SC shines. Everyone has a significant task and you are able to diversify your outfit as needed. Maybe with a QT inhibitor, a transport ship and some combat ships for piracy etc. PVP needs higher payouts and other incentives, like territorial / economic fights. Small Teams need a buff, and a Multicrew Ship must be able to deter (not necessarily outright win) combat fleets with the same amount of players as they have on board. Because right now, we always play 3 people in 3 ships because multicrew makes no sense at all. Like, a multicrew ship should not be able to run down an escaping fighter, because the fighter is understandably faster and more agile. But also in a fight the multicrew ship should smoke the fighter unless very good squadron tactics are applied with at least as many personnel involved as on the ship. Its easy, just add flak cannons that rip fighters and a ton of the games issues will be fixed immediately.
you pretty much nailed it...Asherons Call we would all wear robes, buff with spells...you die nothing lost, min and max to the least resistance.. Common theme ...even Ev online is based the cardinal rule .."only fly what you can afford to lose" But the best you said you fly a pvp ship to kill others but to partake of any other game activity you are at the mercy of the pvp fighter. It boggles me no PDC on Carracks Reclaimers C2s Cattepillars. THey seriously should be bristling and not one single ship should be able to gank them. Me I like contested zones but yes getting back into it so easy, unlike I lost my reclaimer to a lag and crash and there goes 3 hours of salvaging.
@BuzzCutPsycho yep old dad here who hates all the fucking time wasting and bugs in Star Citizen. AC.....remember the "Hoary Robe" from a one time event....only robe that had some decent armour value ....thus became insanely powerful. I like PvP but you made the point well bigger ships just being eaten by a single fighter. Me and a buddy jumped in my carrack to pick up a deadhead helm....something cool. We flew in grabbed a couple we going to leave and an Hornet turned up. Engaged us....and we going one scan shows we have nothing....but hey we got a turret armed made him red....he blew all his missiles.....and in the end just tried to ram us. He died we lived. Yeah it was great to get away...but what was the point of attacking us? Nothing but hoping for a cheap kill....he just sucked and should have nailed us.
I've never been more proud to be "the average" than after watching this video. Solid thinking here, which applies to almost every game I've ever played. CIG will ignore this at its own peril.
what about this : We should not be losing anything upon losing a pvp encounter, everything should be claimable pretty quick for fps gears and pretty long for ships, the more often you die and respawn the more you get crippled and get bionic members, after a set amount of time like a week you switch to any heir of your bloodline and start a new body. I think that would make pvp engaging yet punitive.
I'm PVP player in all others competitive FPS games but I came to SC to just chilling experience in the space, I do not seak PVP but when someone do want my scalp I will do my best to show them that was a mistake 😂
I don’t play SC very much, mainly because every time I explode due to a bug and then spend 10 minutes restarting, I lose my patience. I also like PvP, in fact, I would probably position myself to the right of the horseshoe curve, but I like PvP that has a purpose. Or rather, there is a lack of a valid justification/excuse to engage in PvP that goes beyond the 'I kill him and loot him.' I also believe that we’ve gone from one extreme to the other: from a system where PvP was possible but also punishable, to one where PvP is a certainty and there are no punishments. The middle ground is missing. Now, a system for dividing the game galaxy like in Eve Online (High Security, Low Security, and Null Security) could be a solution? And maybe in Null Security systems, organizations could be given the opportunity to obtain/conquer/buy a particular system and then manage its security themselves. So, there would be a division where: -Those who only want to do PvE go to High Security, -Those who want a mix go to Low Sec, -Those who only want to do PvP go to Null. However, it must be done in a way that all three realities can coexist and interact with each other. Otherwise, it would be better to just have one PvP server, one PvE server, and one PvPvE server.But in that case, the idea of a 'persistent galaxy' would be lost
I'm a predominantly PvE player, but will engage in the rare dogfight (because I rarely ever get bothered) if I don't think I'll get sandbagged in the first 3 seconds. The part about the PvP attitude was spot on from my perspective. I'm not particularly good at Dogfighting. I don't have the *thousands* of hours in arena that the experts have. I'm just a dude who has to work and choses to spend their free time on a messy ambitious space game. The last thing I need is some blueberry rage-baiting because they floored a dude who's mid at best. I'd without a doubt go out and seek PvP encounters if people weren't so frothy on the enter key. By the way that rip on the PvP sweats was brutal at the end.
I dont have alot of time for gaming these days, so the reason I don't PvP is just the time it takes to actually get back in the action when you play it. (and I honestly don't see how they would change this in star citizen) If I sit down for a 2 hour gaming session, I don't want to enjoy the PvP for 20 minutes of those 2 hours, and spend the other 1 hour and 40 minutes rebuying gear, reequipping my character, getting my ship and flying back to where the fun is. Once perma death comes online, I really will just avoid PvP completely. Just don't have the time to start characters from scratch, or take large reputation hits for dying. That's it really.
I don’t take any on my “good” equipment out because I don’t want to loose them. So when I get them, they gain dust in the locker. I may bring out my favorite gear for raids that does not have FPS PVP. I am very average at FPS PVP, so I avoid that and I don’t want to lose the gear I worked hard to get and time grinding the drop zones to get them. Cause it never fails, I get the items, put them on and then I die 30 minutes later. Then it’s 10 hours trying to get the gear again. I would do more FPS PvP if I didn’t lose my equipped items (the other issue is the cheaters using hacks).
I don't really see ship balancing as an issue, I mean if you're in a cargo ship of course you'll have issues fighting a dedicated combat ship, but as you say yourself you can just run away in most situations. Also, when they rebalance the flight model to allow for faster combat speeds again you'll be able to stand your ground in ships like a Cutlass more easily again depending on your skill level.
I’ve had one hostile PvP encounter in Pyro since 4.0s released and live in Pyro and play most days. I think people are just complaining about PvP due to the lack of PvE content. I don’t think it has anything to do with getting ganked, and tbh that’s fair but say that instead of moaning about a PvP problem that doesn’t exist. The one day I was bounty hunting in an asteroid field around Pyro and there was me and three other players (probably in a team), flying around doing missions and helping each other kill NPCs. It was a wholesome experience 😂.
One thing I really look forward to is when pvp is reliany on pve, specifically crafting. And then, give us crafter and merchants a black list for our sales kiosks, by individual and by org. Let us provide consequences. Target me? Sorry, you don't get to buy the only tier 5 hornet on the market I happen to be selling. Yeah it can be worked around, but it's at least an added hassle. Would also love to have the option to put out a bounty mission for a player that kills me in a "lawless" system. Make the prison timer only tick while logged in forcing criminals to serve their time. Consequences for being a murder hobo are non existent.
I hope CIG gets rid of alts or limit to 1 for people trying to get around the mechanic. A lot of people are making opinions based on the current state of the game instead of what is coming.
@@xBloodXGusherx with things like disappearing cargo and broken elevators being core mechanics, yet entirely broken, can you blame them? I mean how many years is acceptable to get basic game mechanics down? These guys are a walking textbook of why parallel game/netcode development ends in disaster. Why on earth would you ever try to netcode your game when you cant even get something as simple as cargo hauling working correctly? That's without even addressing the multitude of problems with the monetization, or the tech demo itself.
@@cheesesniper473 These things are obviously going to be patched or fixed. People are reacting in the short term and i'm thinking long term. Death of a Spaceman sounds like a great mechanic to keep players honest. It grounds you in world and fosters using these Org and multi ship mechanics
I agree with you on the multi-crew. I dont know why turrets in the future require people at all lol. Humans now are on the verge of fully automated turret systems. Its like they are using turrets as a way to force multi player, which is a terrible idea anyway. The cracks of boredom show pretty quickly. Even engineering I think is going to be pretty boring. I also have a worry about ttk. They are going to have to make these ships crazy tanky to even have the opportunity for engineering gameplay to become a thing. Because as it standa right now there is zero time to even engage in that type of gameplay. Once under fire it seems every ship but the Polaris is 10 seconds away from being "kaboomed". So are they going to make everything from the Taurus up a Polaris? Have single seater ships as more of a repair after the fight kind of thing? I think ttk is going to be a very difficult needle to thread and given the MM debacle I dont know if they are be able to make it fun. C.I.G. has this history of just putting things in the game and saying "deal with it".
Honestly have died 3 times total in Pyro since Christmas. Running cargo no less. People are overreacting. Just learn how to disengage. And kill fighters when you see them. Especially landed on the ground.
The whole it didn't happen to me so it didn't happen to you mindset is probably the most problematic issue with this discussion. It basically ensures nobody will ever see eye to eye.
Besides the obvious, i think the biggest thing CIG needs to do with SC is take about 100 steps tf back, unplug SC from any kind of netcoding or "PU", and get the core game mechanics working. Release it as a standalone single player module. Put it back online once you have things like elevators NOT acting like a Sarlac pit. Eventually they are going to have to fix their game, or it will rot on the vine.
I hate to be that guy in the comments saying the most obvious thing ever, but I don't think we can expect much pvp ship balance until all of the games features are in like an armor system, engineering, crafting, upgrades, ship tiers, and all that.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Didn't mean to imply I excuse things like that. Admittedly I'm pretty new to Star Citizen so I'm not that knowledgeable about the ship meta, and still learning about how alpha game development works. I watched the last citcon, and looked over their planned features and they have so much on their plate that I doubt balancing is at the top of the priority list. They should try to do that though I agree. Right now I just want to be able to always log in to the game without getting an infinite load screen bug, fixing the mission bugs , and the elevator to work in jail so I can leave when I do my time.
In Pyro there is too many mission overlap for starter mission locations - for new players. There should be a “wade in” approach to missions that overlap in the same spot. I found the further I went down the mission tree or went down a random spot like Stonetree (on Terminus) I saw no one
The only reason to oppose PVE vs PVP dedicated servers is because they know people wont use the PVP servers and the pirates will spend their time trying to pirate each others lol Every MMO has had to have either a dedicated PVP server or defined PVP areas that warn people that going into those areas can result in PVP encounters. I look at Pyro as a dedicated PVP area so if I go I know the risk but people just want to enjoy their chosen loop for their gameplay. I dont mind PVP but I can understand the detractors not wanting to be forced into it
@@BuzzCutPsycho SWTOR, UO, FF and every other major MMO. They need to give the choice is all im saying or it will lose a large segment of their players. PvPers will be fine playing against PvPers so why not have a PvE only area/server except that means PvPers have to play against higher skill players looking for PvP instead of lower skill players not looking for it
All the major FPS games are struggling with skill based MM systems to keep the sweats out of low skill lobbies killing "noobs" it discourages people from playing. I cant tell you the last time I played Fortnight or COD for that very reason and eventually these games will fail to attract new players and the existing players will stop playing because they wont have the lower skill players to kill
I would have to disagree on the lower crew requirements for the big capital ships. Having been playing 4.0 continuously I see Polarises EVERYWHERE, oftentimes just being solomanned. There's no punishment for it either because even an unmanned Polaris takes forever to kill with its massive Hull and Shield HP pools. Large capital ships SHOULD require a large amount of coordination to use so they are being used for intended combat purposes, not just being flown around willy nilly for every single mission like people are currently doing with the Polaris.
I rather they be balanced logistically than by having players make it a raid night. The Polaris even flown solo has no role or purpose outside of memes.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I could understand that however I find the problem being that as the game gets older and older even the smallest groups of people will eventually have the required logistics to field the largest ships in the game and eventually you'll just see them everywhere. I most often see the Polarises running the Pyro V cargo contracts and they are just unbothered by most ships that show up since they can tank absurd amounts of damage until they eventually jump (unless QDed ofcourse) or sitting in the glitched pyro bounty hunter missions and letting the PDs kill the small things and turrets to kill the big ones as they infinitely spawn on top of them. Then when you eventually kill them they're back in like 30 minutes
They could fix the Contested Zones with radiation. It should be lethal to camp in them for very long, and more so near the entrances and major bottlenecks. If I had a grade A military or stealth ship component for every time I've heard people call out campers in hardcore PVP games like COD.. well I wouldn't need to go into the CZ.. lol
@BuzzCutPsycho I think there's potential there, they can be a lot of fun.. but having good loot is one thing, being almost the only place in the game with grade A components is another.
RE: The Average Joe. They're the least vocal of all the players, the most willing to stick out rough periods, and conversely, the most likely to leave without saying what is wrong. Devs listen to the vocal minorities because it's usually the only, or the majority, of the feedback they get. It's part of a problem that I've been seeing in most of my interactions with products (an odd way to say living), including games, that the developers/ manufacturers don't use the product they make so they don't know if the feedback they're getting is good. They don't PvP so they don't know if it's good PvP. Their PvE interactions are limited to making sure player's aren't getting rich/ good loot too quickly to balance the pretend economy. They're don't see the trees because they're too busy looking out for the forest. Devs need to spend serious amounts of time in the games they're playing and hiring a "QA" team doesn't cut it.
They're like politicians, the laws they pass don't really apply to them so their life experience is vastly different from the hoi polloi they pretend to represent. The laws are just how they think things should run and how they actually run is inconsequential.
Good video. o7
Have a pin I like this
Very well said!
100% Correct
That's the best break down of the problem with gaming in general that I've ever seen. I've never been able to quite put an explanation or pin point on it, but you nailed it.
Damn, you nailed it... Well, at least I filled out that long poll form Cig recently had.
For me the biggest problem in Pyro is PVB
Player vs Bugs.
i started getting stuck at entitlement this week so now i aint playing at all!
@@BuzzCutPsychois this why I haven't been ganked at Seer's in at least three days now? 😂
Isn't PVB the end game of SC anyways?
@@StoneCoolds rather end of the SC game.
@@BuzzCutPsycho are you getting this: "@frontend_login_queueupdate_seconds"? If so, wait until the 19k error message pops up but don't click ok, instead just alt+F4 back to the launcher. Then without quiting the launcher start the game again and it should load right in to the main menu. I know, it's weird that "press alt+F4" is the good advice here, but oddly enough it actually is this time.
PVE: Player vs Elevator
the real enemy
It's like China
LMFAO
6:56 Balance
If you're not in a meta combat ship, you're cannon fodder. "Get gud scrub!"
Dead on. Basically it means, "Play the game the way I play it or GTFO."
Bro if I wanted to play "Buy the Hornet and KOS everything in sight, Arena Commander is right there.
Not to mention I think we're getting the hint from Marketing that you can do a bunch of stuff other than gank meta. Maybe CIG should cater to some of that content other than fancy dressing for cannon fodder?
And people do leave. Maybe 1 in 10 will make a big deal of it in Global chat, the rest leave silently.
Think about it.
They leave with their bad experiences and they tell everyone they know that CIG makes an unbalanced, PvP-privileged, terrible, buggy, trash "game." CIG has to push through all that negative marketing. Sure they may have had their 2nd most successful earnings year in 2024, but that is against the resistance of a decade baggage of resentful players spreading fair and also unfair bad PR holding back resources that CIG could use to develop the game.
One might say "What do I care" which reveals that person to just be another thoughtless sociopath.
People do not often think about the new player experience. Which is what the people you described are not doing. Even the ones coming into this comment section display those same traits you mentioned.
Idk I've been running around in my delta and taking out f7/f8 just depends on skill lvls I'd say I'm at a 50/50 kd right now
@@OG-Siegal1315
In Arena Commander?
you should realize, you are an alpha tester; a defacto cig intern that is there to test core game mechanics while you pay to get pegged.
they implement concepts to see how feasible and costly the endeavor is, not to jerk you off and call you daddy.
Even us players that do love the game and push through the PVBs, are telling our friends to wait! Because we know, that our friends will have bad experiences.
Meaning bad PR from both ends.
While we are like: I hate having to start over every time a bug takes me out. Ill just buy a Nursa and a bigger ship to avoid the time sink! Oh wow, I just spent $450! that was a mistake.
I mean this as the highest compliment when I say - I started the video thinking you were a sarcastic asshole, and by the end of it my mind was completely unchanged. But I was also convinced everything you said was spot on :)
I have to be tame or YT would ban me. Sadly.
Me too. :D Based takes.
One of the things I've been arguing for for yeeeeeears is that the marker should be the ship name, not the player name. No one called it the "Han Solo:" it was the Millenium Falcon. And agreed that one of the reasons I haven't engaged in more PVP in SC is precisely because it takes SO long just to get there (and get back if you die) - I just don't have that much time available to game
I've been saying that since like 2.0
It's fair but how do you recognise your friends flying in a group maybe with the same ships?
@@riccardoboom3618 Name of the ship. Wait - I get what you're asking. Name of the ship being the "Enterprise," not a "Constitution Class"
I agree with a lot of points with what you say, as someone who is on your side, meaning Center/Right. Pyro is just a star system of just blowing people up just because you can - cool? Nothing really benefits you other than the enjoyment of sending someone back to Lumby, unless you get their cargo or whatever. The PvE people don't like this - obviously, and for the hard pvpers, it's gonna get old fast. I'm a veteran Tarky player and once all the traders are maxed out and tasks/quest completed, just loading into an area to just pvp is boring after awhile.
Given Pyro is just brand new and introduced, hopefully CIG adds more to it in time to flesh it out more and actually gives us a reason to be there. The topic of PvP and PvE servers will definitely make the game less "lively". Obviously CIG wants PvE players, or players who don't care about pvp, but will stay on a pvp server and will do things like cargo runs etc to go to Pyro, but as you said, if you're in a cargo ship, you're getting smoked.
To me personally, I think the PvP around Pyro needs to be thought out again, this is in regards to the hanger thingies that you get from contested zones, because what I have to say would definitely affect that. So we have 3 stations that have the codes right? What if, each of those Hab areas, Obituary, you know what I mean, are EACH it's own faction? Meaning if you side with Obituary faction, you join that faction and the other 2 are obviously hostile. So when you are around the pyro system, names are blue obviously represent friendly, and red is dead - duh, and friendly fire would have it's own consequences. Now, I mentioned earlier that there are obviously space dads out there who want to explore pyro, but they just get smoked because they are in a cargo ship, and even if they had a meta fighter, they couldn't dogfight at all, and then on the flip side, you have the sweaty pvp arm chair pilots who just want to fight and think that cargo hauling is for the weak and a waste of time. How do we get these people in the middle? I think gear attrition with supply/demand would fix this. The 3 major stations will have finite armor/weapon supply, dying and rekitting again and again will take supplies away and then eventually it's damn near impossible to go boots on ground with good guns/armor, or you only get partial resupply when loading up missiles/fuel. Well, that space dad is probably more than happy to do a cargo run to RESUPPLY the station with armor/guns/fuel etc. That gives the PvP players an incentive to guard the space dad while he goes to a local moon and get supplies for the faction HQ. The space dad doesn't even have to fight, he just has to get from point A to B alive and him being able to feel like contributing to a cause would probably feel great (obviously the station would pay handsomely) Low supplies = high pay, over abundance of supplies = low pay, then whatever, go back to Stanton and come back when time is needed. Even cargo missions that are no where near the hot spots and just doing their own thing, will give the PvE players SOME confidence that 1/3 of the Pyro system is friendly.
It doesn't even have to be that hard for the space dad, the moons closest to each of the station would have supplies. So they don't have to travel to the center of a hotspot like jumptown to get stuff. They can do it cautiously on their local moons. This also entices the PvP... are the pvp chads going to sabotage other cargo runners and pirate the materials, or are they going to defend the fellow faction members precious cargo so they can continue to pvp fully stocked and kitted. It would create an interesting dynamic in the pyro system for resources - and remember, Pyro is a DYING system, a lot of the resources have already been extracted. Make it feel like supplies are tough to come by.
The Exec hanger system... not sure how I would incorporate it back in, and then there are the people who wouldn't join a faction at all. Overall, I think CIG is really missing a VERY unique opportunity for Pyro that could really change it for the better. A game that has a great aspect for attrition is Foxhole. You die, lose the infantry kit, rekit at the HQ, but the HQ needs supplies. There are people in that game who don't give a damn about pvp, they just want to load up a cargo truck and deliver supplies and feel great about it too.
That's a really great idea. It would be amazing to see CIG add a faction system and make Pyro feel more like a warzone.
This has honestly been the answer for the debate. Make each side need the other one and not just as something to attack or a sale. It also naturally points PVPers at each other. Its why when the QT fuel nerfs were on the board, I was in favor of them. It would have gone a long way from making the ace pilot in his F7A consider what he should be doing towards the Starfarer he has in his sights. It creates a social interaction and encourages players to have some discernment. Get in good with a fueler, and he helps you get to where you need to go. In exchange, he gets some implicit and potentially explicit protection. But at the same time, if you dislike a certain group targeting their friendly fuel supply, it is a great way to set them back. As someone who is a more industrial oriented player. I don't want PVP out. I want it to be a realistic interaction with a reason and a goal beyond just the act itself. I have always felt that distilling the game down into a buggier Tarkov in space would just be wasting the promise and potential of the universe CIG is trying to make. Everyone, including the PVP sweatlords, benefits from the game becoming an interconnected experience that has an incredible amount of depth.
One thing: resources in pyro aren't rare, they are just too scattered for the large industrial infrastructure Pyrotechnic set up. It's not enough for a proper economy of scale, but more than enough for smaller operations
Weird. I have made $10mil salvaging in pyro and haven't been ganked once. Well, not successfully anyways. It's not hard to be smart about things. Don't try to mine or salvage in the super populated belts next to the most popular stations. Outfit your ships with stealth components to make it a lot harder for players to even detect you. And ultimately, cry about it if you want. A no-law system is such. This game is about making your way and being crafty, making friends and figuring it out. If that's a problem, the game just isn't for you. The game concept is just barely starting to come to fruition as well. There's a LOT of game systems and loops and balance and such coming relatively soon now that the tech is mostly done and deployed in the 4.0 preview. They are on the fast track from here on out. Game will be so much different and so much more full of content and options when it's done.
@@gnaruto7769 I'm just basing it off the fact that the mining corporations mined all the super valuable stuff and booked it before the sun cooked them. That's if I recall correctly... So I could be a little wrong in the life aspect. But yeah, if the industrial players, non pvpers, do the cargo hauling around the HQs it helps the pvpers. In the end, there could be incentives that if a faction holds something, there's rewards etc. it would bring an "unconventional" war dynamic to star citizen, meaning it's not actual militaries, it's militias fighting for territory. Think of powerful militia groups like former Blackwater, or the Russian Wagner Group.
I'm sure CIG is going to expand and make more systems that cater to specific audiences. Pyro = pvp war, system (x,y,z) = pve war.
Just resorting to killing people because you are bored is pretty bad, I used to do it as well but it got old REALLY fast and I shed those hairs well over 15 years ago.
What I see a lot is that there is this assumption that lawless means kill everyone, it is not and should be discouraged.
For example, when you are just preyed on at a cargo elevator when you are fiddling with boxes that don't want to come out of your ship and then when you walk up to the console pew pew you are dead. that player can now just walk up to the terminal and lower your cargo to get free aUEC. This should not be possible, at a minimum the outpost should turn hostile and you should be unable to sell at that outpost until your lack of reputation with them has been resolved. This means that the person who just killed you is forced to move the cargo and is facing resistance from the outpost at the same time... it gives them a problem to solve as well.
And the escort? I've seen this argument so many times and you agree with me that this is stupid. Nobody is going to sit around for an hour and then when someone shows up... the person you are protecting is still going to be targeted! It solves nothing.
You can already see the effect, just take a look at the commodity store supplies :D
And I will 100% engage in PvP if I have to, but if I just get a single missile when I leave my seat... that leaves me completely defenseless!
Oh, I forgot to mention that I never question why a game dies. I always question myself why people have to be so hostile towards each other, this doesn't just apply to PvP and I've been playing Star Citizen long enough to endure some very salty players...
Remember the 3.18 days where Port Olisar/Port Tressler/Everus Harbor were littered with hundreds of ships? Or when people intentionally blocked access to terminals? Or maybe you were just getting killed doing a box delivery and the guy in chat told you that you were exploiting?
When people experience hardship with the game, they seem to feel the need to celebrate this on other players of the very same game and get satisfaction out of it as it has no negative feedback loop to affect them.
You should see all my pvp hanger videos!
its borked
We need that player reputation system already.
EDIT: lemme add to this before I get misunderstood. CIG have stated before they wanted the reputation system to both reflect the reputation the player has earned with factions in the game, and with other players. Clear case in point for medical beacons whenever they get that working again as an example, but also transport/service beacons, hiring a skilled engineer to tweak your thrusters, and similar things. It would go a long way to help create trust in the game as designed so far. Most everything else I'd want to add is still in CIG's court on where they want to take it, but the recent citcon has not filled me with much hope beyond leaning more towards the "left" of the horseshoe.
I barely have enough time as is to even make do with the bugs eating away at my ingame wallet with all the time and money wasted just restocking myself and my ships for every loss involved. And even if somehow they create the most stable of games in the (admittedly highly likely far) future, I still wont risk it because of how the game's structured and designed so far (not to mention the higher hardware demands of PvP in general. No, not the controls, the actual PC you need to NOT be a jittery fuck in a shootout) And I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel where I'll leave this game for good.
We do. But, I still believe a faction system would be much better along with a reputation system. Players do need a "team" to be on. imo
"Just hire an escort." I wish it would work, but BARCAP doesn't work in SC. I can ingress on a VIP without fear. Defenders cannot push away aggressors. The flight combat loop isn't tuned for it.
Its an absurd meme phrase people use and as you said it just doesn't work
> I can ingress on a VIP without fear. Defenders cannot push away aggressors.
Sounds like pve BH experience )) When was the last time you've tried to pvp solo versus C2? How much time in minutes it took you to disable C2? All this time escort will channel their DPS right in to your back.
You might say "I'll bring friends" but then it looks like problem is in numbers, not in imposibility to defend. What if escort has twice more friends?
turrets need to be dangerous and an actual threat to fighters capable of destroying them better than if you were in a fighter otherwise theres no point to ever fight in multicrew and its just more hp for you to try and run away.
It is the simplest change and fix they just won't do
Faction pvp mixed with PVE elements would allow both tribes to work together.
id love it but i dont know if we will get that
@@BuzzCutPsycho I'm of the idea that this would work to resounding success. Elite Dangerous has it and, though it doesn't deter the occasional ganker, most of the time people on your same superpower will leave you alone at least. Creates a slight.. maybe a bit shaky sense of trust at least
Then of course, if you see someone aligned with a legitimate pirate organization or power, you know it's KOS
i think you have a point here because it also prevents or regulates huge mega orgs/corps/guilds that can monopolize an entire game, like eve online. but also, prevent the stale/boring WoW red vs blue factions.
not to mention when the perm death action comes in to play so many that are not PVPers will be really pissed
Perm death would be bad for this game
Perm death might have worked if they made it less arcady. That would also have meant less player on player action too. A big challenge they are going to have to solve is the losing all your shit on death. That works when you don’t have to spend hours staging. Literally manually putting in water, food, weapons, etc… Or when player hostility isn’t so rampant. They need to work out its vision for the game without the many contradictory ideas.
Perm Death is Bad for ANY MMO or game for that matter (when it isn't something you can choose).
I would never buy a game again if they all just came "IRON MAN MODE"... like fuk that tedious nonsense! no time for it!
I don't want Tarkov in Space. I hate Tarkov. I'd rather play Fortnite in Space, but I hate Fortnite too. Before I joined OGRE I was a carebear, a particularly loud one at that, because I saw alot of PvP players as people who do endless posturing and yet the PvE players doing even more posturing somehow. OGRE was the first org I joined where I found something genuinely fun to do in Star Citizen, because we literally just farmed salt from the Arena Commander pros and it was glorious. It turns out, most PvPers are worse than npc pilots in the PU when the servers are running smooth. I support things like GrieferNET because they are actively showing CIG what their design choices allow.
I don't know if making PvP more akin to an arena shooter wish ships in Star Citizen is the best idea but I'm willing to try it. I personally avoid PvP mmos for things like PSO, Destiny, and Warframe, though we don't talk about Destiny anymore. Those are PvE games, and they succeed not just because it'd be stupid to friendly fire teammates in Warframe, though that would be funny for a solid hour, but because under PvP, PvE, whatever, these games are just good games, with good progression, and good systems that I'm sorry to say, Star Citizen lacks. Star Citizen is like a giant sandbox with a few discombobulated toys in it and no real direction, because implementing any mechanics involving progression will be directly at odds with, idk, losing your gear when you die, and most of all, losing your time.
The only thing Star Citizen has over a game like NMS for me, is the combat, and fine, the graphics, and I'm sorry, unless I specifically want good space combat, other games fill that void. This is why I keep quitting SC for PvE centric games. I can't answer whether or not SC should have open world and sometimes non consensual PvP, because I'm sure there's a way, but SC needs to be a game first, before deciding anything else, and right now, it's just a tech demo that's trying to be a life simulator with the punishing systems of an extraction shooter. That's a ridiculously bad combination.
P.S. BDO is okay but only because the devs care about the game and the players enough to make its PvP/E formula work. You don't lose jack when a player kills you other than 5 minutes of your time, but that's okay because it's not Battlefield so if you don't want it, a 5 minute loss every few hours is nothing. SC wants to fix PvP, make it so you lose 5 minutes of time and progression. Total. This counts menus. This counts time to farm your loadout. This counts time spent walking back and flying to where you were. It sounds impossible in current SC because it is.
I always hear positive things about BDO and that makes me wish I got into it when it was fresh. As for everything you said about SC you ain't wrong. The Starkov stuff to me is a huge turn off and I really hope this isn't the direction we are going with things.
Lots of us DO want Tarkov in space, Tarkov is hands down the best fps ever made.
It sounds impossible, but I personally don't want that, if they reduce the entire game to where everything just takes 5 minutes, I'll leave and go to another game.
I like your analogy of the horseshoe model which made me think about a related model, the three prong pitchfork.
1. PVE: Left
2. PVS: Center. Player vs Server. PVE and PVP have to deal with CIG's server bugs and of course everyone's worst enemy... the elevators.
3. PVP: Right
Perhaps this is one of those few middle ground topics where PVE/PVP have something in common.
Perhaps the pitchfork is a better analogy. But the horse shoe tends to annoy people so I like using it. ;)
Great video. Thanks for your insight on the matter. One thing I hope they focus on, which you didn't really discuss are the Org / grouping implementations. Having features like a "guild roster" when you log in will be great and help people group up more. I'm not a great PvP'er but I love it. I love it more when I'm grouped up because I stand more of a chance and its fun to chat with others on discord during those engagements. I'm in an Org right now but its a bit disorganized because its hard to getting into servers, partying up is kinda whack etc. I hope they focus more on implementing stuff for Orgs in game soon. Give us an interface like in WoW where we can see our whole Org. I know this is in development and will those out that like to group up.
I believe that as per citcon they plan to have something like you said. Having it all out of game is beyond stupid.
Shepherd's Rest on Bloom. Spend some time there. You will change your tune on "never ganked" in PYRO kid.
Miss the part about me sitting in a stealth ship? You'll never see me, kid. Also, your parents are divorced.
@ Calm down miner
PvP is very popular in lobby shooters, not in MMOs. The biggest MMOs are all PvE.
Are you sure about that?
ironforge.pro/population/era/
or have PvP servers/areas you can go to for that kind of game play. Im not against PvPers but I spend an hour getting logged in fighting bad servers and finally get into a casual loop only to be "pirated" for contracted cargo they cant sell lol
Let me introduce you to the longest running MMO, Eve Online.
@@rabidcentrist A player average of 40K is not a big MMO in my books... Star Citizen would die very quickly with this player count
@@peregrinusfalco SC is already way below that. As all the info we have says that SC has a concurrent player number of around 2.5k to 5k. SC is not that big of a game player wise. Everyone sees the big number on funding and is shocked. Thinks the game is massive, but that's been gained over 12 years. It's really not all that much.
I'm not convinced that PvP is the most popular format. The inherit nature of PvP games is that they require players concentrating into a smaller number of games. PvE games don't require the same concentration of players. You should find there are more PvE games on the Steam market than PvP. You can't draw an accurate conclusion by looking at where players are concentrated at.
Sure I can. I could even point to the most popular games people watch on Twitch. It's always PvP centric. Reality is PvE gets boring, fast, and takes more time and effort to develop content for. In PvP games the players are the content.
Bigger reality is most games suck dong nowadays so people just play the same old crap. I know I do.
@BuzzCutPsycho you need to play a grand strategy game. They can be very engaging.
@@BuzzCutPsycho PvE is boring to WATCH, when you're in control, it's fine. I could counter that Twitch thing with EvE Online, renowned for it's harsh PvP landscape, has around 70 to 80% PvE players who never leave Empire space pretty much since it started 2 decades ago.
The reality is most of the game currently is PvE & Griefers, with a very small amount of PvP'ers. I say griefers because there's nothing implemented to justify the insane unbalance in risk vs reward the PvE players have compare to the "PvP'ers". No patrols, guards don't work, armistice space most often than not works AGAINST you instead of helping, no reputation system loss, no way to report players permanently as criminals and prison is a litteral joke.
It's also ridiculous to consider SC a PvP game, with what they announced for DoaS, with a inheritance tax and reputation loss will end up pretty harsh if you fight and die a lot. More so since the more violent your death, the less likely you will be to come back in one piece or at all. PvP being allowed doesn't mean they intend to make it worth doing.
Also currently Pyro is pretty lawless, nice. Do you really think that's going to last? When reputation comes online, i'm pretty darn sure it will end up like Stanton, except the "law" will be Pirate gangs, Xenothreat and Citizens for Prosperity defending their turf and allies instead of the UEE and Corpos like in Stanton. They said quite a few times we aren't heroes, we're the little guys and while we might influence some factions, we'll never rule or make the law anywhere.
I personally don't mind either way, i like doing both, i got PvP ships and "logistics" ships. I do whatever feels fun at the moment so either way it goes i'm fine with it. I'm just saying though, i really don't think this will end up a PvP centric game, if that's the only thing you're looking forward too, i'm affraid you'll be terribly dissapointed.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Excluding the rare few, most games entirely focused on PvP end up dead in the water. Lets look at BDO, BDO was a PvP game, the PvP is all but dead and now its basically the AFK game where you sit there and fish for money.
PvPers are and will always be the reason for major changes in favor of PvE, Pyro will see changes and it will be changes that PvPers will probably quit over. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for PvP as long as I'm not being forced into something that will largely be one sided because you got the first 50 shots off before I could react accordingly. Fair and balanced PvP is what makes PvP good, everyone is for the most part equal footing (FF14 PvP is trash) and it results in far better fights that leaves everyone happy even if they're the one who ends up losing, which is why a game like halo at least back in its hay day was so great.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I don't think streaming stats are a good thing to look at seeing as just chatting was by far the most watched thing on twitch. We could look at game like BG3, black myth wukong, Elden Ring, Minecraft, Warframe, Helldivers, Tetris, or WOW to see it isn't all about PVP
Excelent vídeo!! I hope deep in CIG there are people capable of rational thinking like you do.
I hope so too but I often think they don't watch what I post
I think that the best way to handle PVE vs PVP is from a content angle. Currently, PVE and PVP are across all game loops, thus there aren't any content ceilings/walls. If PVE and PVP were in-game structured with different spheres (centre of gravity) then co-existence is more likely. However, all roads lead to aUEC bank balances. This needs to change. Factions and NPC escorts would go far to fix this. Faction choice and persistent reputation/membership needs to matter. Currently, only aUEC matters.
I truly believe factions are the only solution. I fear CIG does not.
Excellent and well thought out points, however I fear that it will be drowned out by a lot of the noise coming from both end of the horseshoe and everyone is going to end up unhappy.
Yeah but its also fun to get at them
Once again an above average delivery of common sense. You have grounded takes and explain it all very simply. Kudos to you and keep up the good work
Appreciate it! I just tell it how it is. Well, how I think it is.
keep up the content, u learned me to do basic pvp back in the days keep it going
I will brother man
I'm happy that there will be way more PVP involved as I run fighter escort/security detail as I have my own org. But i agree with what you're saying about the PVP mechanics, but then it is a bit of an after thought as I believe that initially the game was geared more on the PVE/exploration side of things for the most part, with only the occasional piracy/griefer issue. But now it's more dangerous in the verse, which i'm fine with as I make more money escorting haulers, salvagers and miners for a 10-20% fee from their hauls and can make up to 200k per couple of hours or so.
I am shocked people actually pay you to do it!
@BuzzCutPsycho yup. My org does quite well financially. Now even more that pvp is a big issue.
Love the discussion, but I feel the need to point out that when you were listing the top games on steam you were not looking at true MMOs (those with thousands of players on the same server).
Never the less, I agree with your overall assessment, though I am not sure you will ever get the two opposing sides to agree on any style of game play.
Yeah, it's a neverending battle of ideals. But that's what makes it so interesting.
Something I would like to see to help with the situation is getting the new social stuff online and fixing the voip as well as hailing too. Maybe quick hail commands like friend or foe hail signals or surrender signals. Other than that I actually enjoyed living in a pyro town for two days taking apart abandoned ships and throwing them into other people ships until a Polaris shot me
A revamp to crime stat would also be a good thing as well. Allow players once shot to return fire without having to press charges.
I don't know if that would help. But it might. I really just do not trust anyone.
@ sometimes it just takes a bit of confidence to say hello
With a knife and gun behind your back
Love the video, lots of common sense. And I love SC, while I only PvE mostly for the fact that any game has balance issues and there is always a meta that makes you second class unless you follow the meta and this for me is not fun in a competitive setting. And while in 5+ years of playing casually, I have only died maybe 2 times from a greifer while in a city area, I only really run into players that kill me if I have a bounty on me ( which is rare) or if I go looking for a fight. I love that I have a huge space out there I can go do whatever I want and not have the issue of PvP constantly, but when I do find myself in that situation it spices things up from the mundane we pvers can get into.
Also, I don't know why people complain about pyro being a heavy pvp zone, that's awesome for me, let all the people that love pvp fight each other in a lawless area that don't have to worry about prison sentences, keep them there in pyro, better for those that only like pve.
I never heard it called "second class" and I like that. Gonna use it.
Good arguments, heard 1/3 of this, here a short thought then i listen on: i am casual like average joe but i need to know who killed me for several reasons: do i flee when i See that player/Group again after got splashed, do i want revenge, do i want to talk and so on. Without knowing there is no gameplay!
You would know all that if the game had factions :)
The PvP gameplay is shit in almost all situations. Unless it’s very carefully controlled and directed it ruins the game for most people.
But why is that do you think? What about it? Could it be the respawn system being bad? Factionless? Or is this just a case of "PVP BAD"
I think the main problem for solos is the moment they have to leave their ship and other players can simply blow it up. I don't understand why signatures of landed ships are so high, why landing pads aren't shielded, why turrets don't shoot people with active weapons, why npcs don't tell you to put your gun away, etc. It just feels bad to lose your ship while you aren't even in it.
I still have a hard time agreeing with the time sink argument. Unless you are loading cargo it takes barely any time to get back to where u were. Maybe 10 minutes if it's on the other side of the system. But maybe I'm just good at time management. I first claim my ship then put my prepared gear sets on during the timer and when I am in QT I check my missions or get something to drink / use the bathroom. I actually appreciate the qt downtime for allowing me to step away for a moment without feeling like I miss out on something.
Let's ignore cargo. The issue boils down to what it has always come down to.
1. Bad respawn mechanics. Using a mobile spawn for example over rights your station spawn, which means you ALWAYS end up back on a home planet. The best home planet for that (in Stanton) is A18 due to Cubby Blast.
2. No "loadouts" or a shopping that makes sense.
3. NOT RESPAWNING IN YOUR HANGER AHH.
The solutions are super simple. You have respawn options (Home, Bound Station, Mobile Spawn, Nearest Spawn)
QoL Weapon Loadouts.
LET PEOPLE SPAWN IN HANGERS.
I don't want to bore you, I say the same thing to you over and over so I don't want you to think I am some crazy person with dementia. It isn't about instant gratification, It is about just making the mundane easier to get through.
I think they are going for hangar (re)spawning. They had it in a few weeks ago but had to remove it for some technical reason. So I absolutely think it's coming back probably with more hangar customization.
Loadouts I agree with. They have to redo the whole inventory anyway. Right now I prepare stacks of ammo and medpens. It takes maybe 1 minute to equip my character. So not a big deal tbh.
Regarding the respawns I'm OK with several if it's limited and can't be abused. Right now we abuse the respawn mechanics to transport keycards to our home location. Just put all your keys in your inventory, reset spawn and backspace and you have transported them in an instant to your home location with 0 risk because your gear gets stored where you spawn. Stuff like this shouldn't exist. But I don't want to sound like a broken record arguing about this either.
@BuzzCutPsycho this should be a thing. There is a medical zone inside the hanger, make that a respawn bed for your home planet. And even having 3 spawn zones. 1 is a vehicle, one is a selected station, and one is your home resident hospital or home resident hanger hospital.
I think big ships with Multicrew will only be usefull within Organizations. But even here we have the problem: what should they be used, let's say a Capital Ship, for? And when it comes to connecting PvP with PvE Players, I think an old Game named Lineage2 has made it great in it's first 10 years, before other MMO's got more popular. This game implemented Areas holded by a Clan (in SC it would be an Organization) which was able to set a Tax-Rate int oevery Store in the Area and held a Castle, which was the only Place where the needed Top-Items could be crafted.
And Crafting could only be done by a special Class on Chaaracters, so: by the players. The amount that could be produced was low, so it could never crash the Game-Mechanic, and the controled Areas and Castles were open to be attacked and conquered at least once a week, for a fixed time window, so other Clans who registered for it could get a hand on it if they holded the Throne Room (Operatoiion-Center in SC maybe?) at the end of the time. It was Mass-PvP at it's finest, Clans joined in Allies and min-maxing was useless since a "Armed Robe-Wearer" would have died in seconds, even why fighting some Guard-NPCs of a Castle. You needed to bring your own Power, your hardest Armor ad the best Gear, just like the others, or you wouldn't have any chance.
PvP was well mixed with the economy, that was the key-element. And even in small one-on-one-PvP it was good. You could attack everybody you want everywhere you want. If they fought back, it was a consensual fight. If he didn't attack you back, you could kill him, of course. But there wouldn't be any loot from his body and you were marked "red". So every NPC would attack you, every player got your position and was allowed to attack you, and if you would get killed, you can be looted by them. Just fit this into SC in a logical way. No Looting after PK when it comes to the things he wears, but looting his ship? Why not. But you would need to be fast, because a distress signal and warning is out and there could be others that come for you. As said in the vid: fleeing is nearly always an option, so this would be a way to make it better for everyone, since it brings the possibility to make PvP.. well, maybe not consensual in the game, but comes as near as it possibly could be.
Option 1: Escaping. Okay. Option 2: Try to fight. Own decision, own risk, why not? Decision 3: Ignoring the guy who attacks. I could, but maybe I lose what I worked for in a fight I can't win? Just to hope somebody else gets him? What would I have from such a playstyle? So, back to Option 1...
At least those systems would prevend senseless kills in Stanton from people who just like to do it just because they can, but give everyone the option to enjoy it when they want it. In Pyro... well, that's another Story, but Pyro was build for every kind of Outlaw-Gaming, so... Have fun. But even here something like the Castle- and Orgasystem could have a nice impact and make the playing more appealing and gives it more meaning.
I would like for them to be useful for the common man too. Which there are a lot of. You aint wrong though
You hit the nail on the head for me with the time sink it takes with PVP, I'm not against it remotely, while I mostly do PVE activities, the few PVP encounters I've had were fun and contested zones are fun, but the time sink if you die without a group and having to go, claim your ship, sit around for 10 minutes, by back new gear, etc just make it not worth it to consistently play PVP when I don't have infinite freetime
It is a big time commitment. And gets right in the way of fun PvP. hate it.
PvE is broken, PvP is too broken to be remotely respectable or fun. Griefing and just playing the game right now to piss people off in the PU is just a good way to scare off players from considering playing when the game ISN'T broken. It's just unproductive and douchey right now. I'd recommend people who want to do that, check out CoD. Want to PvP in this alpha for some reason? Go play arena commander where you can actually PvP on a semi levelish playing field.
This is exactly how I feel with the game as a whole. I want the PVPers to understand this, its not advocating for PVE at all I still want this game to be PVA (PVPVE). However when it comes into a testing environment its far far easier to keep the system as PVE. Its easier to test in a PVE environment and that is what CIG should have been doing from the get-go in the PTU. Make sure the core systems of the game work at the same time nurturing the game's community into a healthy standpoint.
You'll have Arena Commander to playtest all the PVP aspects of the game, as well the PVP mechanics of the game in a more localized and closed environment.
In this case I will 100% criticize CIG on their poor playtesting.
I agree but I also think it's important for them to understand the ways the systems are being abused to better implement more cohesive systems in the future.
I dont support griefing, but it has its place.
The idea that if the game was fixed and worked well the Care Bears wouldn’t be complaining is dumb. These space dads don’t play other games and it’s obvious. No other mmo community calls simple player killing griefing. It doesn’t not scare off new players, it pisses on space dads that spend their paychecks on digital vehicles that they think will give them high social status. They soy out all the time and are narcissists that expect any other players to revolve around their playstyle. It’s not about time. These Care Bears get their egos bruised every time they are killed. Your comment proves you don’t understand the problem
You clearly dont PvP because if you did you would know that PvP is and has always been the most stable thing of the game
@El1qt
Because it requires the least effort to develop.
I liked when you called CZs Starkov, thats brilliant.
All u
Pyro's problems are more deep seated. Having had an essentially for practical purposes lawless Stanton they doubled down. It might have been better to have a higher sec one so that the two systems actually differed properly. Pyro so far seems to offer very little if you dont have razor sharp reflexes, 20:20 vision and hours of time to practice.
which is a shame. a bit of structure could help pyro
This video, and your 4 minute mastery + piloting skill videos have earned a new sub!
Glad you like them! More on the way!
As you said. People will take the surest way to win.
I played EVE-Online some 20 years ago. At some point Goon fleet arrived, thousands of less experienced people who grouped up to take over areas. It was kinda fun popping their cheap ships with precision strikes but on a whole it was hard to actually make much difference against them as a smaller corporation.
And this is what I wonder how Star Citizen is expected to handle. Thousands of people will join in same organisations and if they gather as many people in same place as server will allow then how are other players expected to fight them? This especially with player owned outposts.
Player owned anything is usually the result of the systems you mentioned. I been saying factions forever and factions protect everyone else from this insane nonsense. But modern devs forget the lessons of old and think that they can do better. PROTIP: They cant.
I fall center left on the PvE / PvP horseshoe. (Brilliant analogy btw). I don't usually seek out PvP unless there is a "Locust" who I absolutely love killing with all my heart. I prefer to exist in a universe where players can turn on you at any point. It makes the mundane PVE content so much more interesting when you need to keep watching your back. I just hope CIG find a good balance with the future Reputation System and risk / reward gameplay.
I'm right there with you.
As a old school player that started out on Diablo and UO in the 90s, I loved your based perspective. When Pyro came out my clan went all in on Pirating. I was wanting to focus on anti piracy and was hoping the broken bounty system for players would have worked and made good money, but I was out voted. Most of what they do is literally search and destroy. They made about 15 million high jacking a freighter with a full load of cargo in about 3 hours. Due to bugs in the game and my clan just griefing other players, I have almost lost all interest in this game. I love PvP but I dont get a kick out of ruining someone else's play time. We are all just trying to chill after a long days work. As is, Pyro is not much of a challenge, its just degenerates shooting people in the back.
What is funny is the money means nothing. There is so much wrong with the game, that included, that once you realize nothing matters you go and do something else.
Exactly. I feel like a lot of the conflict comes from CiG itself as well. The scope and tone of the game has changed multiple times since I first pledged back at the kickstarter. It doesn’t know what game it wants to be. And since there’s never been a consistent vision it’s left the community stuck in speculation which has allowed the two sides to grow and become toxic to one another. I’m more on the PVE side of the middle so I’m not a huge fan of what it is right now, but I love the contested zones and already have two executive ships (without the duping shit that’s happening now). I feel the best way to unify the community would be to do what you’ve pretty much covered: remove the incredibly boring, frustrating and time consuming grind you have to go through after death to get back into it. People aren’t afraid of losing gear (contrary to popular belief) they are afraid of losing an hour of prep time in less than two minutes of usually one sided combat.
I often don't know what sc is meant to be anymore. Whatever it is im here for it.
Time. Nailed it.
The devs touch on everything related to that, they make ships and player characters more tanky thinking that will fix things, when the crux of the issue is the fact I have no way of saving loadouts, so I spend my valuable time not playing the game, being in transit on some hyperloop or tram, waiting on my ship to come up the elevator and so on, there is so many things that turn the game into molasses that if they'd finally adress that issue, we could have a really interesting game, but the hills CIG chooses to die on that they refuse to change negatively impact all other gameplay systems and especially affect combat, both PvE and PvP.
They have zero respect for time imo
09:15 aged like milk
ya im gonna do a video about that blunder
I've never seen your content before, it is an interesting take and conversation that is going on. I mainly focus on the PVE game play in SC. I feel there are several good points you made, I think you might have missed some also.
The horseshoe, is good, I feel the part missed is talking about the population % of those groups. I know in the past year or two CIG has indicated the players are 20% PVP focused and 80% PVE focused. My best guess is PVE only is about 20%, 20% PVP only, 60% that mainly want PVE with some PVP. That 60% in the middle is the group they need to focus on, to find ways to get them to go to places where pvp is more encouraged like pyro.
Something you are 1000% correct on, time and trust. I don't trust anyone! if I see you in the wild I have sight on, if you get to close I am shooting first dealing with the CS after. Time: why would I invest time and effort in learning PVP skills when those systems will be changed 3-4 times before the game hits 1.0? I mean look at how often the flight model changes.
I think your biggest miss is your part about ignore the carebears (even though at the start you mention not making fun of them🤣). You make the argument everyone loves PVP cause most of the steam top games are FPS is laughable. Comparing FPS arena style games to a MMO, really? Maybe you should be looking at other MMO for comparison? Every MMO out there is PVE focused. Look at New World, it started as a PVP MMO, in beta they realized almost all their players wanted it to be a more PVE game so they got the PVP toggle, they scrambled to turn the PVP game into a PVE game and it flopped. Look back at MMO games in history Everquest, Wow, ark, ESO, Guild Wars, FF, Star wars, and yes even Star Citizen the majority of the MMO player base leans heavily to PVE. Without a good solid PVE game SC will no last long. Seriously go look at the MMO player base numbers of the past.
i am hoping that in time SC will figure out what many games have failed to do, get a MMO game where both can be possible. Where the most hard core PVE people can still get into a little PVP action, without being the guys in pyro who can't leave the station cause they get killed.
Welcome to the channel! I am not for everyone though, so not everyone stays. :)
Would this be a better source of info for MMO populations?
ironforge.pro/population
In my experience with that godforsaken game the most popular servers were always PvP, with a handful of PvE ones being popular.
And the reason I did not mention MMO games is because SC has far more in common with shooters than it does tab target mmos.
I love the faction idea, I think one other idea with factions can be hiring faction npc ships as protection when reaching hire level of trust with that faction.
That allows for NPC escort ships to protect industrial ship on top of buffing the industrial ships as defensive ships that can take a beating and also keep the smaller fighters at bay.
The faction system is really the only way to go and I've been feeling that way for awhile
Great video. I agree with the most of the analysis on PvE/PvP players and the importance of catering to the average players.
However, I don’t want to see SC become PS1 with a faction system. Maybe that can be the story in one star system, but I don’t want to see it everywhere.
All it would need is one system and Pyro is perfect for that. Already has 3 factions.
@ personally I like the small group chaos of Pyro. I’d be happy to see another system, like Nyx, that focuses on factions and larger group objectives
So, I am not normally a pvp player. I am more a PVE, storyline, side quest etc kind of person. I am fairly new to SC so I am still learning how to play, where to find stuff, etc (kinda hard in 4.0 atm... lol) but I do find myself bopping around in Pyro, exploring, look for shops to find new stuff to buy etc. With that said, I am fully aware I am in an area where I can be attacked and I am willing, obviously, to take that risk. Most times, it's been pretty smooth. I think I was attacked once out of my 3 or 4 times going into Pyro so far. Not a bad ratio. Knowing I am going in, I go in minimally, with no gear etc, so I am not even worth targeting. lol. One thing I think would help is, keeping our stuff, or at least allow us to insure our armor/weapons/etc. Dying at the moment, fully equipped is a huge pain in the ass unless your buying sets/weaons etc in groups of 10... lol. There are too many bugs, issues etc that allow a smooth pvp experience right now. But to really get the most people involved, lower the risk a bit in any number of ways.
I think more people get annoyed by the loss of time, or rather time to get back to things rather than actually dying.
I'm in the middle of your horseshoe example. If PvP players and PvE players are separated because of the extremes on both sides, I'm setting my PC on fire and walking away from gaming entirely. I'm pushing 50 and enjoying the adrenaline rush of good PvP, and I like to chill out with casual PvE occasionally. I also play a lot of Tarkov with 100k+ kits on the regular. The thought of PvP being anything like any other MMO gives me anxiety. Where I have to join some special mode like Arena Commander and where my rewards mean jack and shit in the PU. As far as min/maxing goes, I think it's prevalent in all games with a PvP element, and that sucks.
Star Citizen has over 100 ships, and only 4 are viable to be a top-tier PvP'er. At the end of the day, statistics are to blame. Some game developer out there has to break the mold. Stop assigning numerical values to gear, ships, or weapons. Numbers are absolute. And higher numbers will always be higher than lower numbers. I know that sounds stupid, but it is. Real-world weapons don't have stats like DMG. They have stats like velocity, effective range, rate of fire, and armor penetration ability based on distance to target. I've seen a .22 do some severe damage to a person, and I've seen a .45 fail to take a suspect down. If real-world guns had stats like video game guns, every cop in the country would use the same weapon. Every army of every nation would use the same rifle. Every gun in the real world has potential one-shot power. It just depends on the situation and the person using the gun. Star Citizen needs to rework their weapons and get away from stat systems that are 20 years old. If they don't, people will always use min/max, find the best weapon/gear combo, and never bother with anything else because why? It wouldn't be a good way to spend their time. Why use a weapon with inferior stats? Just use the best one and troll your opponents. Why try to do PvP in a Merlin? Total waste of time when you could take out your F-7.
Yeah that's the whole point of this video. You're right.
What if the owner of a multi crew ship could assign it as an armistice zone at will. Like who let's everyone on a ship be armed. Isn't that why they have gun racks and armories?
You may want to check out Infinity: Battlescape.
Also, not all MMO combat is small-minded arenas. Guild Wars' World vs World game mode pits player alliances against each other in a tug of war game on huge maps. Each round lasts a week and it contains both, scripter and player-driven events. It has its own rewards track with unique items and abilities. You are not penalized for not participating as most rewards can be obtained in other PvE or PvP activities. Something like that would work very well for SC.
I Completely AGREE with MOST of Your Points!
I am glad!@
Good takes. Remembering it's just a game removes the stress from pvp, I think the entire sc community should remember that. Besides, it's not like it matters if someone gets in the way of me finishing a mission or blows me up trading/mining, there's no point to making money or earning rep. The last session I played, I just ran around looting aztalan helmets and suits from pyro outposts cause they look cool. Anything in atmo was KoS, but players at stations were never aggressive, so I live and let live. Probably just refueling or forced to eat/drink like I was. I don't attribute being pk'd randomly to malice, and I don't pk out of malice. Like you said it's low trust. They're just doing what I would to them - neutralize a potential threat before it poses an actual one. If they ever remove safe zones I'm lighting up the entire station cause why should I trust anyone else won't do the same.
As for the carebear attitude, idk man if I'm running cargo and get pirated that's just gameplay. If only self destructing wiped out my cargo too. If I can't have it, neither can you. Scorched earth baby.
If more people were like you perhaps things would be better LOL
Personally I just hope armor/ thick shields changes everything for multi crew ships. Something like size 1 guns can damage small ships, but no good for mediums. Size 2 can damage small ships armor, but not mediums. Size 3 for mediums, size 4 for large. Size 5 for sub capital. And size 6 really being what’s needed tor capital ships. This would also balance out a lot of fighters with super high dps vs what size ships they are actually effective against. Shucks it might even help with the imbalance of shooting at a small ship from a large one and not really being able to land any shots.
This and just making aiming turrets not suck donkey butt.
I been hearing armor will fix it for years now :(
@ well considering the didn’t even mention toon armor during citizen con, I’m sure you have a many more years to wait :’(
Nice vid. Sums up SC and human nature well. Balance is needed so that path of least resistance is much less defined. I don’t know though how you have a game driven by a PVE economy while making risk to these players as they invest their time acceptable. Industrial ships are,Unfortunately, designed in the game to be weak. This is a massive flaw in SC. Currently though and strangely, SC feels like it’s being built for the players that like to crash and burn games then move on to the next one.
Last line nails it. The true fate of all full loot pvp free for all mmos
I've seen a few murderhobos around places like Shephard's Rest just blowing up every parked ship they see but I think there's possibly some misattribution by the PVP avoiders. The AI now can actually be a threat; I jumped to a location at Pyro 1 and was met by 5 AI ships that immediately locked onto me once I arrived and before I came out of QT and regained shields. They were ruthless and I barely made it out alive. If you were caught by surprise, it'd be easy to assume it was from a player because the AI has never been a threat.
I'm willing to bet a lot of people get their ships ganked by ai and assume its a player
It's nice to hear someone talking sense. Though I wonder if the huge time investment for 2 minutes of pvp is a type of anti-pvp deterrent. Problem is that losing is so painful that the pvpers resort to ganking where they can't lose.
Hah, my thought got addressed later in the video. :D
when death is painful you only fght when you can win
What is described in this video suggests someone who calls themselves a PvPer shy away from fighting a near peer competitor. I would love to call this cowardly but it’s exactly what you should in the real world as combat; but this is a game.
Waiting until someone is on the ground and in the least position fight back is not PvP and shouldn’t share the title.
I spend most of my time in AC if you were talking about me :)
@@BuzzCutPsycho I was speaking of those who gank players when they are the most vulnerable; not you.
Yesterday in my Zeus, I got ganked at Pyro gateway so fast that I couldn't tell who or what hit me. So I spawned my Gladius, twice, to see if I could even the odds, but I didn't fare any better either time, and ended up switching servers to make my escape. Fortunataly, such encounters are rare, four times in six years!
I think it's also true that too be good at PVP one needs to think and act like a brutal predator to come out on top, and that's a skill that, I can imagine, takes time and commitment, unless of course your a natural predator, to which most people are not. This is why Countries have military boot camps, where they train sheep to be wolves. Maybe Star Citizen should have such a game loop.
I bet a faction system that allowed such natural predators to be on your side and break up the gate campers for people such as yourself would be a better fix!
To me, the real issue isn't about PvE or PvP, but about criminality: currently, it is possible to remove any risk involved with criminality, which should never be an option. By removing risks, we also remove consequences.
Here, the risk is to be caught doing something illegal and gain CS. While the consequences would be to be hunted by players and NPC.
It shouldn't just be possible to remove the risk, it should just be possible to make it slower. Example: disabling a Comm Array should only remove the immediate risk, but a gameplay solution should still exist to report crimes, like bringing back a ship's black box, or a character mobiglass. Like this, it should always be possible to pay for the crime committed.
I have no real answer to give a "risk" or "punishment" to a crime focused player. Punishment is not something I am keen on in games, sadly, there is no way with the way the game is setup to make it fair for the victim either. It is a deep issue.
Congrats to Enclave on your recent confirmed alliance with ITC! I know this partnership will go FAR, right.
This is news to me!
The covered the biggest single issue for me. As someone who enjoys the industrial gameplay I have zero chance of surviving an encounter. And where you were able to escape in the Terrapin it is often not an option. You can't run from an F7A in a Starlancer/Reclaimer. Maybe you could if it was shields on/guns off in NAV but that is another subject. For me this imbalance and CIG's love affair with light fighters is why I am moving more and more to the left
9+ years of single seat fighter dominance. You are right, it is a love affair.
Being an average joe, i like pvp & pve equally
I'd do escort and turrets for the right amount, or friends (everyone has a price)
Give me an ability to Quantum boost away when im pve farming, ganking and pirating blows, but i know its a part of the game
Keep the interdiction in, i might give it a go oneday, and it will serve future loops for more than pirating loop
Why isn't there a squad channel?, and easy hover players name to glance rep while squadding, its surely needed for future medical loop
Contract creation on repeat murder hobos for personal vengeance...? yeh id pay for that ( if i'm loaded i'll send the hounds cus why should i waste my own time?), because i can and lols
I like the thrill of looking over my shoulder, so no pve mode for me, and no pve server
You'd have more fun in the turrets if they didn't suck too
I'd have more fun overall if everything wasn't so undependably broken
But as far as turret play goes, i'd do ir for $, or the mission, or to help a friend
Admittedly there are far more enjoyable loops
Q: 'What keeps you from engaging pvp more often?'
A: the insane Hornet meta that makes 100 other ships absolutely pointless. Nerf that shit, or bring everybody else up to par so they at least have advantages and/or options.
hornet is so bad for the game it is unreal
Definitely need to buff the bigger ships. Only makes sense. Hopefully when turrets have AI and ship armor is implemented, there shows a difference.
Yeah, it's either single seater, or get ganked RP ship. I'm back at the lvl where a hornet is free lunch when i'm in a gladius, but the point stands - balance is terrible.
Again, thanx for the vid, sums it up quite well. However, I really don't see a good and viable way to bring both game loops (PvE/PvP) together in ONE game. The examples of the most played games (CS2, DOTA etc) are PVP only. Also in the list - for ex. - is BG3, a PvE only game. So, if you want to be a truly sucessful game, you need to be either PvP only or PvE only. Also, PvE could be so hard, that even the most senior PvP pro would wet his pants - it's just, they tune down the bots to make them killable ;) - however, due to the rise of AI we will see more interesting content here in the mid future, I assume.
I could mention WoW.
ironforge.pro/population/era/
Shows PvP/PvE population divide. But, if I was about bringing them together factions is truly the only way. Foxhole is a good example of that. You have logistics PvE players and combat PvP players. Both depend on one another. There are ways it can be done but it would need an entire new video.
@@BuzzCutPsycho U R right - one thing why WoW is still so successful is the separation of PvE and PvP servers. I think thats also what most SC players would like to see here. U mentioned it in your vid, "PvP specs" are completely different to "PvE specs" - in any game, I guess. So, converting that to SC: if U play PvP you choose different ships compared to PvE. This makes a confrontation inheritently unfair, as u stated in your vids :) However, similar to WoW, even on PvE servers there should be areas where PvP is in place (like the faction-camps of the opposing faction and dedicated PvP zones like the CZs. If we would get that, SC would be much more viable for more players - yay!
"Low trust society" that's a really good way to describe it
Sadly a true way too
you cant use most popular games on steam as a metric, counter strike is in no way comparable to star citizen, you should instead look at the popularity of open PVP MMOs which is what star citizen is
sure its a fair metric. it is a pvp game, and sc is a shooter nowadays anyway. I could look at MMOFPS games, when I was at SOE PlanetSide 2 hit over 1 million ACTIVE accounts, it of course tanked because the game was bad and mismanaged. But it was very popular and interest was there.
New World hit over 1m, also a PvP centric games. The thing about these games is they were done poorly, it wasnt the pvp that ruined them, but how poorly it was put in.
Why don't we look at new PvE mmos in the last 10 years? Oh basically none of them survived the first year after launch. Looks like it isn't as easy as PvE = success and PvP = failure.
@@BuzzCutPsycho By that metric you could look at WOW with their 7+ Million and classic with 8+ million active players as the gold standard of MMOs. I will argue that having split servers with no way to transfer things between the 2 is the best solution giving both sides what they want.
Outside of the usual Spectrum noise, I don’t see Pyro being actually a problem for PVP/PVE. In the last few days I explored Pyro solo in a starter ship and I barely seen any other players. Hopefully by the time PVP can be a serious loop in SC, CIG have fixed the servers and add enough features to make the game more interesting.
I do not think it is a problem but I do think it could be handled a little better. I don't think structure is a bad thing.
Master modes ruined everything
k
You hit the nail on the head. When CIG flattened ships into strict roles with the weapons, handling and defensive changes, they sucked the fun out of it. One of the most satisfying things to do is outskill somebody in a lesser ship. The underdog win is an archetype.
Running away sucks, but you have no other choice. I used to have fun heroing in my 125a, but now there's almost no chance.
The game doesn't respect the player's time.
It sure does. Even before the new MM the majority of ships in the game were still Dookie.
Thank you for the content
You're still here! Thanks for that.
Yes. Some form of turret automation is necessary. Additionally a defensive weapon layer for multicrew ships. Say you can outfit your turrets with BSG style flak cannons that make short work of fighters. A great defense means that at the same time limits offensive capability, so for example heavy multicrew fighters might still choose guns if they intend to hit above their size.
The PVP potential between dedicated PVP ships and multirole ships is often an issue in such games, like E:D. You wanna be the do-everything millenium falcon who can stealthily smuggle cargo while blasting TIEs left and right...in such games of course, you dont stand a chance against dedicated combat ships - i mean, it has to be that way to some extent, otherwise why implement combat ships...
I think PVP rewards should be bigger, multicrew ships should get a defensive layer that is not running away and it all needs to be carefully balanced so that skill still comes into play. Otherwise you are just creating a rock-paper-scissors system where the outcome of any fight is dictated by the ships in use, when in reality there should be much more factors taken into consideration.
Then again, there should be a benefit to having a player in a turret instead of an NPC. How to go about that? I'm not sure. I'm the type of player who plays with the same 1-5 friends every night in different games. I rarely play alone, because the social aspect is important to me, but I don't have time or capacity to join huge-ass guilds which require months of commitment, bureaucracy and organization just to play a game.
I think mid-sized multicrew ships (2-4) crew need to get a super duper buff. This is the kind of group size where SC shines. Everyone has a significant task and you are able to diversify your outfit as needed. Maybe with a QT inhibitor, a transport ship and some combat ships for piracy etc.
PVP needs higher payouts and other incentives, like territorial / economic fights. Small Teams need a buff, and a Multicrew Ship must be able to deter (not necessarily outright win) combat fleets with the same amount of players as they have on board. Because right now, we always play 3 people in 3 ships because multicrew makes no sense at all.
Like, a multicrew ship should not be able to run down an escaping fighter, because the fighter is understandably faster and more agile. But also in a fight the multicrew ship should smoke the fighter unless very good squadron tactics are applied with at least as many personnel involved as on the ship.
Its easy, just add flak cannons that rip fighters and a ton of the games issues will be fixed immediately.
I think the automation would fix it up
you pretty much nailed it...Asherons Call we would all wear robes, buff with spells...you die nothing lost, min and max to the least resistance.. Common theme ...even Ev online is based the cardinal rule .."only fly what you can afford to lose" But the best you said you fly a pvp ship to kill others but to partake of any other game activity you are at the mercy of the pvp fighter. It boggles me no PDC on Carracks Reclaimers C2s Cattepillars. THey seriously should be bristling and not one single ship should be able to gank them. Me I like contested zones but yes getting back into it so easy, unlike I lost my reclaimer to a lag and crash and there goes 3 hours of salvaging.
oh god I forgot about AC and AC2.
@BuzzCutPsycho yep old dad here who hates all the fucking time wasting and bugs in Star Citizen. AC.....remember the "Hoary Robe" from a one time event....only robe that had some decent armour value ....thus became insanely powerful. I like PvP but you made the point well bigger ships just being eaten by a single fighter. Me and a buddy jumped in my carrack to pick up a deadhead helm....something cool. We flew in grabbed a couple we going to leave and an Hornet turned up. Engaged us....and we going one scan shows we have nothing....but hey we got a turret armed made him red....he blew all his missiles.....and in the end just tried to ram us. He died we lived. Yeah it was great to get away...but what was the point of attacking us? Nothing but hoping for a cheap kill....he just sucked and should have nailed us.
Excellently stated Good Sir
Thanks!
To add to IndustrialFaith's earlier post, average Joes fill out your surveys!
i hope so. funny how those surveys never end up in my email
I've never been more proud to be "the average" than after watching this video. Solid thinking here, which applies to almost every game I've ever played. CIG will ignore this at its own peril.
It will be ignored for sweaties im sure
"Red Stanton," I like it. o7
o7!!!!
what about this : We should not be losing anything upon losing a pvp encounter, everything should be claimable pretty quick for fps gears and pretty long for ships, the more often you die and respawn the more you get crippled and get bionic members, after a set amount of time like a week you switch to any heir of your bloodline and start a new body.
I think that would make pvp engaging yet punitive.
I'd be fine with that
I'm PVP player in all others competitive FPS games but I came to SC to just chilling experience in the space, I do not seak PVP but when someone do want my scalp I will do my best to show them that was a mistake 😂
I came to sc for scale and purpose. So far I kinda have scale
I don’t play SC very much, mainly because every time I explode due to a bug and then spend 10 minutes restarting, I lose my patience. I also like PvP, in fact, I would probably position myself to the right of the horseshoe curve, but I like PvP that has a purpose. Or rather, there is a lack of a valid justification/excuse to engage in PvP that goes beyond the 'I kill him and loot him.' I also believe that we’ve gone from one extreme to the other: from a system where PvP was possible but also punishable, to one where PvP is a certainty and there are no punishments. The middle ground is missing.
Now, a system for dividing the game galaxy like in Eve Online (High Security, Low Security, and Null Security) could be a solution?
And maybe in Null Security systems, organizations could be given the opportunity to obtain/conquer/buy a particular system and then manage its security themselves.
So, there would be a division where:
-Those who only want to do PvE go to High Security,
-Those who want a mix go to Low Sec,
-Those who only want to do PvP go to Null.
However, it must be done in a way that all three realities can coexist and interact with each other. Otherwise, it would be better to just have one PvP server, one PvE server, and one PvPvE server.But in that case, the idea of a 'persistent galaxy' would be lost
Sounds like DAOC frontiers.
I'm a predominantly PvE player, but will engage in the rare dogfight (because I rarely ever get bothered) if I don't think I'll get sandbagged in the first 3 seconds. The part about the PvP attitude was spot on from my perspective. I'm not particularly good at Dogfighting. I don't have the *thousands* of hours in arena that the experts have. I'm just a dude who has to work and choses to spend their free time on a messy ambitious space game. The last thing I need is some blueberry rage-baiting because they floored a dude who's mid at best. I'd without a doubt go out and seek PvP encounters if people weren't so frothy on the enter key. By the way that rip on the PvP sweats was brutal at the end.
It is also sadly true. They are all the same.
When the social network comes online it will invlude player reputation. That will help in "vetting" players.
Factions would do that too!
I dont have alot of time for gaming these days, so the reason I don't PvP is just the time it takes to actually get back in the action when you play it. (and I honestly don't see how they would change this in star citizen)
If I sit down for a 2 hour gaming session, I don't want to enjoy the PvP for 20 minutes of those 2 hours, and spend the other 1 hour and 40 minutes rebuying gear, reequipping my character, getting my ship and flying back to where the fun is.
Once perma death comes online, I really will just avoid PvP completely. Just don't have the time to start characters from scratch, or take large reputation hits for dying.
That's it really.
they could change it with more intelligent spawning systems.
I don’t take any on my “good” equipment out because I don’t want to loose them. So when I get them, they gain dust in the locker. I may bring out my favorite gear for raids that does not have FPS PVP.
I am very average at FPS PVP, so I avoid that and I don’t want to lose the gear I worked hard to get and time grinding the drop zones to get them. Cause it never fails, I get the items, put them on and then I die 30 minutes later. Then it’s 10 hours trying to get the gear again.
I would do more FPS PvP if I didn’t lose my equipped items (the other issue is the cheaters using hacks).
You described the main problem with all full loot games
Good analysis. Id add the desire to have an alt is further indication the system is broken.
CIG sold people on the idea that "alts" could be custom NPC crew
It's not just alts, it's the need for *multiple* alts.
time commitment is the huge one for me.
me too man, takes so long to do anything
Well said, yet again ☕️
Thanks!
I don't really see ship balancing as an issue, I mean if you're in a cargo ship of course you'll have issues fighting a dedicated combat ship, but as you say yourself you can just run away in most situations. Also, when they rebalance the flight model to allow for faster combat speeds again you'll be able to stand your ground in ships like a Cutlass more easily again depending on your skill level.
SCM speeds aren't increasing.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I meant the general speeds at which you will be able to do combat, since you will be able to use your weapons above SCM speed
I’ve had one hostile PvP encounter in Pyro since 4.0s released and live in Pyro and play most days. I think people are just complaining about PvP due to the lack of PvE content. I don’t think it has anything to do with getting ganked, and tbh that’s fair but say that instead of moaning about a PvP problem that doesn’t exist.
The one day I was bounty hunting in an asteroid field around Pyro and there was me and three other players (probably in a team), flying around doing missions and helping each other kill NPCs. It was a wholesome experience 😂.
Pyro is pretty peaceful and empty it seems
One thing I really look forward to is when pvp is reliany on pve, specifically crafting. And then, give us crafter and merchants a black list for our sales kiosks, by individual and by org. Let us provide consequences. Target me? Sorry, you don't get to buy the only tier 5 hornet on the market I happen to be selling. Yeah it can be worked around, but it's at least an added hassle. Would also love to have the option to put out a bounty mission for a player that kills me in a "lawless" system. Make the prison timer only tick while logged in forcing criminals to serve their time. Consequences for being a murder hobo are non existent.
That all sounds like fun but I'm not sure how it would work out
Hopefully crime and punishment and meaningful player bounties you change PVP but I hope there is a significant bgs for background simulation for PVE
In a world of alts it will mean little
The idea of Death of a spaceman is completely absurd, why the hell would i ever do PVP when i could lose that much, its ridiculous.
alts lololol people would just use alts or cheese
I hope CIG gets rid of alts or limit to 1 for people trying to get around the mechanic.
A lot of people are making opinions based on the current state of the game instead of what is coming.
@@xBloodXGusherx with things like disappearing cargo and broken elevators being core mechanics, yet entirely broken, can you blame them? I mean how many years is acceptable to get basic game mechanics down?
These guys are a walking textbook of why parallel game/netcode development ends in disaster. Why on earth would you ever try to netcode your game when you cant even get something as simple as cargo hauling working correctly? That's without even addressing the multitude of problems with the monetization, or the tech demo itself.
@@cheesesniper473
These things are obviously going to be patched or fixed.
People are reacting in the short term and i'm thinking long term.
Death of a Spaceman sounds like a great mechanic to keep players honest. It grounds you in world and fosters using these Org and multi ship mechanics
I agree with you on the multi-crew. I dont know why turrets in the future require people at all lol. Humans now are on the verge of fully automated turret systems.
Its like they are using turrets as a way to force multi player, which is a terrible idea anyway. The cracks of boredom show pretty quickly. Even engineering I think is going to be pretty boring.
I also have a worry about ttk. They are going to have to make these ships crazy tanky to even have the opportunity for engineering gameplay to become a thing. Because as it standa right now there is zero time to even engage in that type of gameplay.
Once under fire it seems every ship but the Polaris is 10 seconds away from being "kaboomed".
So are they going to make everything from the Taurus up a Polaris? Have single seater ships as more of a repair after the fight kind of thing?
I think ttk is going to be a very difficult needle to thread and given the MM debacle I dont know if they are be able to make it fun.
C.I.G. has this history of just putting things in the game and saying "deal with it".
Turrets being AI controlled and super deadly would go a long, long way imo.
Honestly have died 3 times total in Pyro since Christmas. Running cargo no less. People are overreacting. Just learn how to disengage. And kill fighters when you see them. Especially landed on the ground.
The whole it didn't happen to me so it didn't happen to you mindset is probably the most problematic issue with this discussion. It basically ensures nobody will ever see eye to eye.
Noise nav run!
Besides the obvious, i think the biggest thing CIG needs to do with SC is take about 100 steps tf back, unplug SC from any kind of netcoding or "PU", and get the core game mechanics working. Release it as a standalone single player module. Put it back online once you have things like elevators NOT acting like a Sarlac pit. Eventually they are going to have to fix their game, or it will rot on the vine.
Sadly doing that stops ship sales which tanks funding. kinda worked themselves into a corner.
Starkov lol. First time I've heard that one. Think i'll start using it.
Please do!
"How do I know this? Beacuse I do the same thing!"
This is the content I come here for.
lol i have many videos of ganking people in hangers
Before MM the gap between ships could be closed a lot more through player skill at least
It was just the gladius and arrow back then
I hate to be that guy in the comments saying the most obvious thing ever, but I don't think we can expect much pvp ship balance until all of the games features are in like an armor system, engineering, crafting, upgrades, ship tiers, and all that.
I think over 1 year of Hornet dominance is bad or the game regardless of the game's early access state.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Didn't mean to imply I excuse things like that. Admittedly I'm pretty new to Star Citizen so I'm not that knowledgeable about the ship meta, and still learning about how alpha game development works. I watched the last citcon, and looked over their planned features and they have so much on their plate that I doubt balancing is at the top of the priority list. They should try to do that though I agree. Right now I just want to be able to always log in to the game without getting an infinite load screen bug, fixing the mission bugs , and the elevator to work in jail so I can leave when I do my time.
In Pyro there is too many mission overlap for starter mission locations - for new players. There should be a “wade in” approach to missions that overlap in the same spot. I found the further I went down the mission tree or went down a random spot like Stonetree (on Terminus) I saw no one
It's just a poorly designed system. Even the veteran players rarely go there now outside CZs
The only reason to oppose PVE vs PVP dedicated servers is because they know people wont use the PVP servers and the pirates will spend their time trying to pirate each others lol Every MMO has had to have either a dedicated PVP server or defined PVP areas that warn people that going into those areas can result in PVP encounters. I look at Pyro as a dedicated PVP area so if I go I know the risk but people just want to enjoy their chosen loop for their gameplay. I dont mind PVP but I can understand the detractors not wanting to be forced into it
By "every MMO" you mean WoW.
DAOC didn't have dedicated PvP/PvE. And Mordred was ignored. As was Solem Zek in EQ.
@@BuzzCutPsycho SWTOR, UO, FF and every other major MMO. They need to give the choice is all im saying or it will lose a large segment of their players. PvPers will be fine playing against PvPers so why not have a PvE only area/server except that means PvPers have to play against higher skill players looking for PvP instead of lower skill players not looking for it
All the major FPS games are struggling with skill based MM systems to keep the sweats out of low skill lobbies killing "noobs" it discourages people from playing. I cant tell you the last time I played Fortnight or COD for that very reason and eventually these games will fail to attract new players and the existing players will stop playing because they wont have the lower skill players to kill
The only and enough reason, that is not the game they are making. Project Director: "SC is not a PVE or a PVP game. It's both".
I would have to disagree on the lower crew requirements for the big capital ships. Having been playing 4.0 continuously I see Polarises EVERYWHERE, oftentimes just being solomanned. There's no punishment for it either because even an unmanned Polaris takes forever to kill with its massive Hull and Shield HP pools. Large capital ships SHOULD require a large amount of coordination to use so they are being used for intended combat purposes, not just being flown around willy nilly for every single mission like people are currently doing with the Polaris.
I rather they be balanced logistically than by having players make it a raid night. The Polaris even flown solo has no role or purpose outside of memes.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I could understand that however I find the problem being that as the game gets older and older even the smallest groups of people will eventually have the required logistics to field the largest ships in the game and eventually you'll just see them everywhere. I most often see the Polarises running the Pyro V cargo contracts and they are just unbothered by most ships that show up since they can tank absurd amounts of damage until they eventually jump (unless QDed ofcourse) or sitting in the glitched pyro bounty hunter missions and letting the PDs kill the small things and turrets to kill the big ones as they infinitely spawn on top of them. Then when you eventually kill them they're back in like 30 minutes
They could fix the Contested Zones with radiation. It should be lethal to camp in them for very long, and more so near the entrances and major bottlenecks. If I had a grade A military or stealth ship component for every time I've heard people call out campers in hardcore PVP games like COD.. well I wouldn't need to go into the CZ.. lol
I think the entire contested zones thing is silly personally. wasnt a wise move imo
@BuzzCutPsycho I think there's potential there, they can be a lot of fun.. but having good loot is one thing, being almost the only place in the game with grade A components is another.