I said something like this once in-game and I was chewed out by like 30 guys. Here's the kicker, 14 of the 30 that answered my question on what ship they bought with actual money spent more than 250 USD on a ship, just a ship, not even the starter package. It's basically sunk cost fallacy at this point.
It also has a dev cope problem, the moment something critical pops up, Nightrider-CIG will delete it. So they end up with trash devs like Yogi-CIG who went to school for audio engineering but is now the head of PTU development. Make it make sense CIG
I dont think this is the key, it will be a badge of honour to most, I remember the start of EvE, the wanted system was like a display skill!! It could be if the punishment was harsh enough, say 95% of your UEC and in game purchased ships confiscation!!
Log off and back on only to find that FBI CIG confiscated your ships and UEC, haha. Not saying that's how it should be done but it made me laugh inside.
@@1R3TR0 Nah, that's too absurdly rough. Also, the law system /should/ be a deterrent to many, and a test of skill to many others. Making the penalties absolutely stifling or inescapable just ain't it.
In a game like WoW where when you get ganked, you have a quick spawn and you're back in the game, this is a "haha ok asshole you got me" moment. In this game, where we're already fighting massive amounts of bugs and every time you die you will most likely lose all your stuff, be respawned across the galaxy, lose thousands of credits, and wait 15-40 minutes for your ship to be claimed, It is just not cool to attack players who are just minding their own business. It does make me rage quit some days and it's keeping me from exploring new parts of the game right now.
@@nikoulph I'm a new player currently day 7 of the experience and after day 4 i moved to pyro and I'm enjoying it a lot. PvP is a force that makes progress more risky but also more rewarding. I love the 200k salvage mission cos it's a great reason for PvP. Its not all bad. There will always be griefers in mmo games, this is how this genre works
@@MT2LOL perhaps your view is based differently on how much time you can play this game. Thats the shitty part. as SeanLeprechaun ponited out you do x y z = lots of time.. just to get smoked for NO reason.
@@JP-fm1oz All the ppl i spoke with from different orgs or just random players during the time i played which was mostly around 18 hours each day for a week they didnt really have any situations when anyone got killed for no reason. You can get hunted by griefing/toxic pvp orgs for crying in global chat about pvp, if you are doing anything industry/blue collar related and you have any loot on you ppl usually kill for loot or to prevent you from having loot which is also a viable strategy. If any area is contested for loot or mission type/spawn or resource you can get killed there cos you are in a contested zone. Everything has a reason but ppl think they die for no reason and cry about it.
You mentioned ED. One thing they did well is hitscan weapons! Turrets are a hundred times more effective as a deterrent with those! And of course the ATC response if your notoriety goes up. The only way murder hobos will stop is if they face opposition they can't beat. They boast about PVP all day long, but they really don't want to take a fight they might lose. They're only interested in seal clubbing
The prison system would be an infinitely stronger to deterrent if we could not transfer Merits. The problem with prison (besides the bugs) Is that pretty much every org has one or multiple merit accounts and everyone transfers their extra merits to this account so they can instantly get their allies out of jail.
Takes 15 minutes to run from your apartment to your ship, another 5 to leave atmo. Main reason I don't play as much as I'd like is just the fact that some asshat gets his jollies off killing players for no reason at all.
I mean if you stay at a big glitchy city then sure, but this is why you should be staying in a further away station that lets you exit it faster. I'm a new player on day 7 now and since day 4 im in pyro and i need around 3 min to get out of station including getting out of bed/medbed get suit and gear on and go to hangar and leave.
@@MT2LOL One of the big draws in SC is personal hangars that you can decorate and spawn into. They went to great lengths to create and stabilize hangar persistence. It's also where everything tied to your cash shop and subscription items spawn. And your suggestion is that nobody ever use them. And, to top it off, setting your respawn to a station doesn't prevent the murder hoboes from preying on people who don't want to engage them, it just allows them to get back into the target zone roughly 8 minutes quicker. Even on a station, you're 3-5 minutes from hab to hangar and another 3-15 to reclaim the ship you lost. And you're still out anything you were dumb enough to load into the ship, which CIG have gone to great expense to supply with storage and weapon racks. At this point, anybody who wanders out of a station with anything aboard other than contracted cargo, an undersuit, helmet, and multitool is just asking for it, Stanton or Pyro. I haven't got all that many hours into the game. Most of it not in my ship. But even I, with probably less than 5 total real world hours flying, have been blown up 3 times, only 1 of which might have been a legit pirate attack, given I had a whole 12SCU of low value cargo aboard. I say might, because whoever it was dragged me out of quantum, and might not have known what I was carrying.
@@jasonmaxwell9762 its normal for npc to dont behave exactly like a human being is supposed to do... sociopath are also like that i think you just dont make the good comparaison... at least the npc dont have fun after and it doesnt make him more of a psycho, feeling rewarded for hes bad behavior, skill issue for not being able to kill an npc vs greedy sociopath are totaly 2 thing that you cant compare maybe you need to be more irl than in gaming universe to understand that kind of difference i guess your more of the side of the sociopath than human being seriously your comments its all we need to understand what kind of human you are
So its not the players its the game thats the problem. If ppl are playing in a lawless area, they should be able to do whatever they want. The consequences of dealing with that though, should not be 30+ minutes of getting out of a spawn zone lol
Hum thinking about pvp flagging. What about reverse flagging? Players who want to be lawful will turn on their transponder and show their identifiers Players who don’t want to be lawful can not turn on their transponder. So if you see a ship on your radar and there is no identification along with it, it’s probably a pvp’er. Limit the ability to dock at stations with your transponder off. Or even make it a crime to enter “controlled space” with your transponder off. 🤷♂️
Stanton is chill. And Pyro should not be regulated. The thing is… this is not a story expansion. And it shouldn’t be favorable to everyone. There is only 2 systems present from the 100 planned. They choose pyro as the one from the hardest and most anarchic systems. There is no need to change that, it’s just not for everyone, and its fine. All the murderhobos and pvp madness there only present because of 2 simple reasons: 1: Pyro is capping at 500/500. It’s like ten times the intended population there. It’s overcrowded. Instead of being a desert with scarce player contacts it’s a crowded place. This is not it’s natural state, this is the overcrowded state of the system. It will self regulate itself once population saturates between more systems. 2: Contracts are broken. Performance is horrible. If you sit at waiting for elevators to open for half an hour, and spend another hour scanning an asteroid cluster for enemies that doesn’t spawn because they are bugged, then wait an hour, because contracts doesn’t appear at all, and even if they do, the npcs just teleport around, it’s just natural that you won’t start a new contract, rather just find a non-tedious and broken way to play, even if its just the arcade part of the gameplay without any reward. People are just bored.
CIG could still toy around with the reputation system, though. Say you kill someone affiliated with the headhunters in headhunter space ... your own headhunuter rep could take a hit since they don't want you to mess with their assets, even to a point where you aren't granted service at stations/outposts or even attacked on sight - that way, your actions HAVE consequences, even in a lawless system like pyro, forcing you to put in at least some gameplay related consideration before destroying something/someone only based on a non-gameplay related reason.
That's one of my favourite things about SC's on-foot combat; no cheesy magic saves from bad practices and stupid choices. This mechanic, in particular, teaches muzzle discipline. Lack of muzzle discipline is one of the most common reasons for an AD to become a fatal firearms accident so kudos to the developers for having the basic human decency to honour the memory of the many human beings who have lost their lives to this kind of firearms accident.
A death penalty where a player's character is permanently killed after repeated murder convictions could also be a good addition closer to a 1.0 release. It requires death of a spaceman and a lot of other mechanics like rare crafting blueprints to serve as a deterrent. Although it could be a powerful and immersive way of discouraging players from randomly murdering.
not really.. your death will be permanent as well after a while.. and killing people requires little to no great equipment, the murder hobo is always at the advantage of having nothing to lose. and there is always the option of having a burner account, just for trolling..
I think some sort of blackbox / mobiglass recording system for ship and player kills in lawless zones need to be implemented, it'll give a player the option to upload the data to the UEE and have offending players put on a "caution list" while in UEE space. Basically the same as a player talking to their friends saying this guy killed me in pyro, be careful if you see em. It doesn't stop the players doing their murdering, but just a reminder that the bounty hunters, merc factions and UEE may get wind of their murderous ways and be keeping an eye out.
The last couple of times I got murdered, the little green eye in the upper left of the screen was showing. That means the com array was up, and the murder was recorded and sent to the Advocacy. Which means whoever did it got a crime stat (level 3, IIRC, for murder). Doesn't seem to matter, since, as TheSpaceCoder says, they can just log in with their alt for the couple of hours their character is in Klesher. And if it doesn't work in Stanton, it's unlikely to work in Pyro. The behavior won't go away until meaningful measures are taken. It has to be made painful to be a murder hobo. Painful enough that only the truly psychotic continue to engage in it. CR once laid out all the things that were planned to combat this sort of gameplay, up to and including eventual account termination for the absolutely incorrigible. One of the better things that was mentioned was that getting enough points in that griefer box would add a designator to your tag that you were open game for anybody and everybody. You could be engaged on sight by anyone without them getting a crime stat. Try moving around the 'verse with that flag hanging over your head. You'll get all the PVP you could ever wish for, but probably wouldn't enjoy it for very long. That was 10 or 11 years ago, of course, and we're still waiting while these scrofulous a-holes ruin things for others. Maybe in 2025...
Increased security response and working rep system are definitely needed. It makes no sense that you can essentially camp in someone's front yard and kill all their customers and business partners who come to visit without consequence. The outpost should want the intruder GONE and be able to take steps towards that goal according to the locations resourses and ability. An organized group or even supremely talented individual may still be able to lock down a location, but they will constantly have to fight against npcs, which even if they win, should clue in all but the dumbest players that maybe this isn't a good place to land right now...
The intent was always to have bounties issued, they actually were for a while way back when. But larger and larger fines, long reclaims times, rep limiting respawn locations to crap systems will take care of it. Murderhobos are always broke, they do no game mission loops or salvage if it takes 2 hours to reclaim their ship and they can not expedite they will get bored fast. I personally hunt them in my LN, murderhobo's mostly suck at combat and if I can get a solid hit with an S3 missile then they are shieldless and in many cases damaged before I reach gun range. I have taken down most fighters murderhobo's fly without too much issue,and I can always run. Worst case my LN gets blown up it is a fast claim process.
So, what's your response to many orgs being focused on pvp-"pirate"-griefing? {I say "pirate" here because they don't actually pirate, they just want to kill}.
@@Vandreal_Wolf Org rep will exist (eventually) so like player rep it will drag the murderhobo orgs to crap systems, endless bounties, longer reclaim times, etc. The idea was org rep builds and goes in the toilet slower so once you are at the bottom you are staying there for a long time. As well having a new guy setup a new org and then everyone transfering to it ,just brings all the individual bad rep to the new org rep tanking pretty instantly.
This buggy game finds so many ways to kill you from falling through floors to elevators to the train all before you get to the hangar. Then you have to deal with can you enter your hangar. will the hangar doors open only to be kicked out of the server or have a crash wipe out your ship and gear. Who needs murder hobos to make all that worse. The answer is no one.
@@sirbalendor5600 I look at your comment completely different at the end. Murder hobos is the least of my concern after dealing with all the other issues in the game. I much rather die to a player a 1000 times than to die to any bug once.
@@blackmamba___Facts. Nothing more frustrating when you die to something thats not your fault. If a player kills you, its 100 a your fault problem, because you could practice combat and become good enough to fight back. But instead you chose to be a cargo trader and refuse to engage in combat 🤷♂️
@@BrokenImmersions Kinda hard to fight back when you're doing trading or mining or other non-combat activity, even if you're a good combat pilot. It's hard to do non-combat activity in a combat ship and it's hard to do combat in a non-combat ship.
I think you are right, to much idiots who just kill for the kill and anger they produce, this is unhealthy for a game like Star Citizen. This will drive away people over time and then are only the hobos left and then they are gone too and the game dies
I must be playing on the wrong servers, I do mining all the time and only fought one player in the last year. Everyone makes it seem like this is an hourly problem???
@ Not what I was talking about, but feel free to interpret stuff into what I wrote... Also: your experience is anecdotal, you got luck then, me as well, but there are so many more who were unlucky. I was talking about the issue in general
@ I guess I wish my big gripe about this game was due to dying to other players. Unfortunately my issues with this game is bigger than anything another player can do to me.
I mean i just view them as reavers from firefly. A fix is. Make personal standings. Like in eve online. So if you kill me. I can redlist you so in the future if your on my scanner you show up as red
My last session, I spent several hours fighting the game, the tractor beam, and the janky cargo system, trying to complete a single mission. Phasing through bulkheads, random ship issues where, for instance, the engine would stop responding when trying to move the ship, even to include getting clear of the station, but the mission not accepting that I had the cargo with me and refusing dock clearance to get back onto the station to pick it up. In the middle of this, a Hornet somehow rammed my ship. Game bug, right? Anyway, after several hours, I finally had everything. And, so far, no murder hobo activity. Until I finally got everything working, made my initial jump (In a Cutter, with 7SCU of random worthless cargo). Naturally, the delivery zone was on the far side of the planet, and quantum wouldn't route me there around, so I had to make 2 jumps. One to the nav marker, a second to the delivery location. You guessed it, there was a murder hobo in another Hornet camped there, and as I was reorienting for my second quantum jump. I ate a missile that had to have cost him more than anything he could hope to glean from my wreckage or corpse. And I'm sure whoever it was will be proclaiming loudly that PVP is a right, and I shouldn't expect anything less. The mission? Pyro? Nope, Everest Harbor to Hurston. High sec insofar as SC has that. There is no meaningful downside to these activities. ETA: Remember when Chris Roberts promised that murder hoboes (which were then called griefers) would eventually only spawn into servers with others of their own kind? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
I mean... Look from one side you undocked in a full pvp game. You consented to this. From the other side, the game design is kinda shit. Your time vs reward was not really worth the risk. Meanwhile more meta missions easily make tons more cash for a fraction of the time. The game is also not balanced to encourage people to hire protection. The game is balanced around solo cutters getting heavily outclassed and shot down. I honestly pin full blame on cig for that.
@@wizywig Yeah, I keep hearing this, but usually from only one side of the equation. It's almost the theme song for fighter pilots hunting industrial players. Like the rapists claiming that the victim dressed provocatively, so she must have wanted it.
@@wizywig CIG's intention for making starter ships getting outclassed is for marketing reasons. They want players to buy bigger ships to protect themselves, it's all marketing.
I should have noted I don't mind PVP. you want to fight and take my ship and cargo fill your boots. One of the absolute best PVP interactions I had was at Grim Hex when we only had it and Port Olisar. There was a pad camper at Grim, I helped another guy clear the camper. The guy I helped turned around and shot me when he realized I had a bounty on me,I had kind of forgotten about it. It was perfect, he apologized, in chat but it was all good by me and we had a good laugh.
21:06 this won't lock anyone out of their paid for ships: they just have to comply with the law if they want access back, which is actually fine. Because you paid a buttload of money it doesn't means you are not subject to the game mechanics, as, when you die in game, you are forced back to a landing location to be able to have your ship back. Insurance is part of the game, and you have to play the game to benefit from its mechanics. Going to prison "IS" also part of the game. Another solution could be to actually remove the Murder Hobo right to be revived and have an heir to inherit it's goods (Death of a Spaceman), at east as far as the Law extends. In Pyro it could get more complicated because the fresh character will have no reputation or alignment and in any frontier game you would have to fight for your stuff anyway, ans there is nobody to appeal to.
Death of a spaceman is a roleplaying mechanic as much as anything. Do murder hoboes really care about such things? These are the same people who make the clown avatars and treat the game as no more than a set of mechanics that their whole purpose is disrupting.
@@TheBetterManInBlack but losing reputation with your faction and having to start all over makes life difficult for the MH. It won't stop the most dedicated but the average ones may be yes.
@@Leptospirosi I mean, sure, if they have a faction? If they're not just jumping into their ships, seal clubbing until they're out of ammo/fuel, and then hitting self destruct to respawn fully fed, watered, and with their ship replaced for free, fully fueled and reloaded. There aren't any real expenses involved in that loop. Not even the relatively minor hassle of buying 7auc bottled water, since they'll be respawning before they die of thirst.
I will say that during 4.0 when Kleschner was bugged and you couldn't get out, boy, crime in Stanton dropped real fast! Having a crime stat and going to prison had an actual meaningful consequence. Repeat offenders have ever increasing prison sentences to the point where you go on time out for a week or MORE.
Crime dropped not only because of that, but because the usual suspects flocked to Pyro. Prison was completely bricked yeah, but that doesn't mean it didn't have meaningful consequences prior. I've spent hours and hours in the slammer, often over illegal PVE missions and someone flipping the Comms Array back on without it properly showing. Proposing to have someone locked out of playing for a week, because of a different playstyle than you, is batshit crazy though.
I don't care much for NPC police serving justice exclusively. Players should have an option to place a players name on a list that all players can reference also giving that player negative reputation as well as offering to add whatever amount they like to a bounty fund. If another player captures or kills the bounty, they must deliver the criminal or his corpse(s) to administrative office to receive the bounty. The criminal cannot respawn in prison until after the player or corpse is processed by the admin office. So if you're a criminal, the bounty hunter can put you "on ice" for a limited amount of time depriving you of activity the same way you deprived others of the time they invested. So if you're a big enough asshole, the bounty hunters can determine how much of an asshole they can be to you, for a time that is dependent on how many people have added you to the bounty list. More crimes reported equals more "ice time" the bounty hunters are given to process you before they collect the bounty. Powerful deterrents are needed to have powerful results.
@ Yeah, I mentioned that in another post. They're now saying it's not gonna happen, and I'm not happy. Thing is, PVE players don't need PVPers to enjoy the game, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the other direction. If you require the ability to drag an unwilling participant into your gameplay, maybe there's something wrong with that gameplay.
Player run reputation systems are always a terrible idea. They're good in principle, right up until a less reputable group decides to brigade someone they don't like. A trader can end up with a Charles Manson reputation just by coming onto the wrong persons radar. Equally, people tend to instantly believe what they read without question. Say a guy (lets call him Dave) is getting legitimately pirated, he only manages to catch 1 name, and that name is a salvager (Roger) who just jumped in to the wrong place at the wrong time. Dave angrily gets on global chat declaring that Roger 'griefed' him and calling for everyone to downvote his rep. Again suddenly a totally innocent player has a tanked rep. Now lets revisit those less reputable orgs, who should be the ones impacted by this system... they upvote each other etc. In the case of the bounty list scenario you're suggesting, again it would be very easy to manipulate. Whilst my own org is 'the bad guys', we play the game, we don't use griefer exploits / tactics. We have a solid rep for honouring our word. That said, I personally have pirated a guy and he got super angry, calling out my team-mate in chat (the only name he saw) and declaring a 5mil bounty (which was a lot at the time). My buddy respawned and I announced in chat that had killed him and I had his body. The guy came to inspect the body and paid me the 5mil *while my respawned buddy was standing next to me*. We got his cargo, and a 5mil bonus. Thats a more gamepaly focused but still very valid example. In game, gameplay based faction rep could work. Player controlled rep will never work. sad but true.
In the case of gate campers, they could put security forces (turrets, ships) at the gates or create armistice zones coming out the gate. I think this should happen. For other places though, I'm ok with way the things are for the most part. This is coming from someone who got jumped today while offloading cargo at a "less than reputable" location. It really sucked and, when I went back, I got beat again because I didn't have anything that could take down a Carrack, but with that said, I'm, ok with it. It cost me 300k, but I learned that maybe I should sell at TDDs if I want to limit my risk, even if it costs me a little per SCU to keep the risks low.
I would maybe dull the aggressor's advantage somehow, either by making armor more effective or some kind of one-hit shield that takes five minutes to recharge, or some other means to ensure that you can't kill a player by jumping them with a submachine gun. From the moment a player knows they're getting into an actual fight if they attack someone and not just shooting first and getting away with it, you're gonna see the murderhobo stats drop sharply (exceptions for Snipers and stabbers, sneak kills are their BnB). You can still catch players off guard and dispatch them, but you'll have to put actual work into it.
I like the idea of if your reputation gets too bad you start getting chased by patrols and these patrols could be invulnerable to your weapons and have deadly accuracy and you would just have to run. At least when it comes to entering different territories and being in "lawful systems”. CIG is so quick to fix duping for their non-existent economy, but they're so reluctant to make life difficult for the people who make life difficult.
Nothing stops them in the end, but that's why we need charactersto be associated with one server when game is ready. So in addition to the game system, players also make a name for themselves in their own servers, a parrallel irl reputation among their peers. That's how you transform grief into drama into org wars and doing so into game content: a reason for pve player to gather ressource for their org and for the org to protect them to weapon themselves against others.
Which is why it should be impossible to fully avoid the risk of been reported when doing any criminal activities. It should always be possible to always report a crime committed, be it by bringing the mobiglass of a corpse or the black box of a destroyed ship, when a comm array isn't there for quick report. Once upon a time, we had mission to bring back destroyed ships' blackbox and recover information on murdered NPC. I sure hope that this can come back as an emergent gameplay option which would, then, report crimes on players and NPC responsible. Without risks, we can't expect consequences, to begin with.
we need some kind of reputation that you see on others that does not affect the game .. but you see that the person in front of you killed a lot of players .. or didn't do that.
Every PVP game has a murderhobo problem. The best way for SC to handle it is to have kill rights on players, and immediate penalties. Inability to access missions in the system where you acquired the kill rights, the ability to submit the kill rights to all lawful players in the system, and payout for dealing with that, plus the player's bounty that issued the kill rights to be global. Also, the player shouldn't be able to dock anywhere lawful until they have followed one of two possible ways to resolve it; pay the player an agreed upon amount to cancel the kill rights, or...well, get killed. A way to avoid scumming this system is that a player with kill rights on them cannot remove the kill rights from another player. Not foolproof, I know, but it vastly discourages combat in high security systems. Kill rights also would not apply in a system like Pyro. You want to be a murderhobo? Go to unsecure space. You want to benefit from high sec? Don't be a murderhobo. CIG also needs a system like CONCORD in EVE. If you kill a player and they press the "press charges" button, security needs to spawn in force, quickly, then slowly despawn.
"Prison" in SC is not intended to be a deterrent but a change of scene and setting. Armistice zones, landing zone security, and station turrets are intended to be partly a preventative measure and partly a deterrent depending on context. Ultimately, it's the HEAT system of escalation which is intended to function as a deterrent and limiter on antisocial PvP when it becomes too repetitive. This doesn't always work because there's a lot of left field in a vast, dynamic game environment. So the trick, as IRL, is to plan ahead and take shenanigans as a given in every session. The question, before you encounter them, is always where? And that's where you don't want to go if you're not yet drunk enough to feel as if participation is meaningful! The issue I have with the whole murder hobo scene, and this is a general MMO human/design problem is that is a lot broader than just mere murder hobos. When people who are not **playing** participate in a game, they act outside of the norms anticipated by the design perspective of the game. Murder hobo gaming occupies a niche of non-play which includes some seemingly very minor things like Perpetual Sprinting and PvP bunnyhopping. The problem is that there is a general lack of variety and appropriateness to what are often considered mundane limitations and, more importantly, those limitations don't scale dynamically. If we take the simpler behavioural deviation of perpetual sprinting, the fix is very simple. In-game, hunger and thirst hit you every IRL hour with fatal consequences (that's six universe hours - yet I've never heard of anyone dying of starvation as a consequence of missing lunch or dinner that one time). It certainly doesn't help that hunger and thirst escalations aren't scaled appropriately with the intensity of activity. Just, merely, the hourly consumption demand has been a cause of many complaints which confirms the mechanic's utility for discouraging unwanted in-game behaviour. So, if we wanted to discourage perpetual sprinting / running, it would be a simple matter of making the hourly hunger/thirst limit a consequence of perpetual jogging/running and ratchet the limit right up to every 10 IRL minutes for perpetual sprinting. Meanwhile, characters who walk everywhere are allowed up to 12 IRL hours, in-game, before the character expires from dehydration and 84 IRL hours, in-game, before the character expires from starvation. Don't want to be constantly feeding and watering your character like an overworked horse? Don't be delusional about what a human being can or can't do. Simple. And it's no more than the addition of interesting detail to the limitation which prevents players from running around on foot at 80km/h like you could in Doom if you knew how to use a trackball. If we look through the same lens at the murder hobo issue, there is a lack of granularity and detail in the HEAT escalation. Player bounties are not adequately reinforced with rival NPC bounty hunters racing in and, when NPCs do get involved, it's always the same tactical opening with the same sequence of escalation. NPC bounty hunters should show up with a plan and an approach which is varied enough to be unpredictable while also accounting for how the murder hobo is situated and going about his business. So, while our intrepid murder hobo thinks he's safe scoping an outpost, a ship flies somewhere, at the edge of sight and sound, and is gone. A common occurrence in busy ground locations on a busy server. Ten minutes later, a ground vehicle is rolling up behind him at speed and the ground is exploding around him with heavy machine-gun fire. What will pass through the murder hobo's mind, first? The 20mm round about to hit him right between the legs, or the piece of razor-sharp stone shrapnel thrown up by an inconveniently placed miss? What's a murder hobo to do when what's gone around comes around - even when other players don't want to play with him? Alternatively, for the same murder hobo MO, it might be a A1 for a bit of fun, followed up by an escalation to A2 if the squad of NPCs covered by the bombardment don't nail him first. It should never just boil down to one end and needs to be a varied, unpredictable selection of one of several tactical options for each of a variety of situations a murder hobo cultivates - and, by now, I expect CiG's data on this must be pretty comprehensive - more than enough to classify murder hobo MOs and tailor several different responses for each type. The key to this is escalation. Make it playable. Give him a few rounds he can win. A lot of these guys are just bored and, unfortunately, OB1-Kenobi ain't there to wave his hand in their face and tell them to take a moment and rethink their lives. That comes down to gameplay which evolves into hard, in-game experience. If he's good enough, he wins several rounds before he gets crushed by the next escalation because that's how policing works IRL. So that's how you simulate policing in a game - as a series of escalations which build up to overwhelming force. This brings us back to "prison" which is just more content to a genuine player. To someone who's out pranking, griefing or otherwise trying to restrict access to content or spoil someone's in-game experience, this forced change of scene is very much a punishment because it takes away control. And, to be perfectly clear, griefers are control freaks. You don't break them by playing their game. You break them by taking away their perceived control. When working as intended, Kleischer is the perfect hammer for this because it doesn't have the same impact for actual players who are caught up there and simply take the opportunity to enjoy some content they probably haven't seen in a while or maybe take an intermission break for dinner and come back to jump in the elevator. There's a lot which could be done to enrich the Kleischer experience and it still wouldn't change the way it impacts griefers because griefers can't play (they think play is 'childish' and they're too narcissistic to do "childish" things). Take their control away and they'll log off and go annoy someone else.
A group of griefers were killing people at the Stanton jump point so i managed to rally almost 20 random people and we ran them out of the area and secured the jump point for other people to be able to jump safely, later the griefers came back with a huge org and it turned into star wars. Unfortunately the lack of VC between our group and lack of coordination we were all slowly killed, however we did manage to hold the jump gate for about an hour allowing multiple people to safely leave pyro. If the game wasnt so buggy we could have large scale battles happen like this more often, When it does happen though it gives me a little bit of hope for this game again
This is exactly the sort of awesome emerging gameplay that I want. I think people are a little too up in arms about this "murder hobo"-thing. I do agree that it's not perfect as it is now, there needs to be more risk for the attacker. But Pyro is Pyro and you should be prepared to fight, it's not only a PVE zone.
The problem with that is that you just become content for other people. They make money out of it. You, on the other hand, probably wasted your time and didn't get to complete whatever your initial plan was. If you enjoyed it, that's okay. How long until it seriously gets in your way though?
@@CptFugu Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. And to my knowledge nothing stops you from switching servers in the current state of the game, so circumventing a gatecamp is not hard. Same with doing missions in other locations. Now if you expect to be safe in pyro and you get ganked thats on you, it is not supposed to be safe there. Stop being entitled, learn how to minimize risks and accept that the game is not disneyland in space, its dangerous out there.
@ Please, try read past the first sentence before you reply. How does changing servers help with anything. That really makes no sense. People usually find where gankers are by getting ganked. It is not like switching servers will magically recover the time and money wasted. I didn't say anything about Pyro being safe, or anything remotely alluding to that effect. And I am seriously doubting you understand the meaning of the word "entitled". I am not about the game being dangerous. I am about all the danger being on one side, and the rewards on the other.
Auec the money inside SC are centralized and everyone needs money to refuel etc etc... What about a system that involves automatic penalties based on percentage of your total amount. First time you get 2% penalty, 2nd time 4%, and so on, until the Hobo Murder is left without a dime (and possibility to ruin the game for others)?
Or perhaps a claim could be made for the total of the loss (including personal equipment) to the Police and have that deducted from their Galactic Bank account.
I would want something like this as it means its a waste of time/money for the griefer too (if its heavily repeated). It can be balanced out with prison time (mining only) to reduce the penalty
An EVE Online style system security rating would help, with huge numbers of NPC police spawning to deal with griefers in high security areas. Though that model works well in EVE because there are soo many systems that pirates have plenty of low/null security systems to go be pirates in and there's lots of high security systems where if you're smart you shouldn't get ganked (yes suicide gankers exist, but if you know what you're doing you shouldn't get ganked by them). With SC there aren't many systems so you're not spreading out the pirates and gankers so a PvP flag system and strong NPC response to attacking NPCs should probably happen.
Losing the ability to refuel, repair and rearm would help. Since a lot of people in Stanton can go to any moon and top off. Regardless of their CS level.
"Seize the Imprint" sounds like fun bounty hunting/infiltration gameplay. Go to location X, hack the sphere, get an "imprint conveyance key," take that to a prison station within a timed duration, and drop it off for payment (part 1). Part 2 is to go and kill the target to get them into prison.
So I decided to watch the video and I mostly had the same idea, I think the consequences need to be increased, but it still needs to be possible as it is important to preserve the option for a less lawful play style. I agree that there should be more intervention by the different factions for security, for Stanton just ships on patrol and searching and maybe even ground NPCs. I feel that the same should also be done for the Pyro gangs, they still want people to trade with them, so with that if someone affiliated with their gang blows up ships at that station, the person who is blowing up the ships should take a hit, naturally if it is someone in high rep with the gang, the reputation hit should be bigger, and even killing people who are not affiliated should cost some reputation as the gangs would rely and want to deal with other people for trade. For Pyro, I feel that the ground NPCs can play an even bigger role, like straight up waiting for the player to exit the hab and the player has to fight his or her way out, or if in the hangar, they enter the hangar through the cargo elevator. Naturally there are also patrols and station defenses, Idea is players can possibly do stuff like this to destabilize another gang and it would increase their reputation within their main gang as well if they want, but if they are doing it just because, they would eventually exhaust all their options in terms of factions and basically need to be nomadic and stay away from large stations. The final thing is to add an option to get out of the situation while still being wanted, similar to breaking out of klesher, so the player has the ship impounded, and cannot take off, and the player would have to hack terminals to bring their ship up and hack to open the doors or something like that, idea is that their ship is impounded and they have to steal their ship back. No
My 2 cents, player behavior should dictate what content is available to them. If a player has a high number of player kills, their available missions should be from nefarious mission givers with predominant focus on combat. All of this depends on a reputation system. If a player has a KOS reputation, they should be accosted by NPCS and players alike in a high sec system. In null sec, free for all, bit missions are limited to Head Hubters etc. Should a player wish to change their rep, they start from the bottom, I e. Bad rep players wants to get salvaging missions, start with certification while not killing other players for a time
Honestly I think the murder hobo problem would be mitigated a lot by, say, automated aUEC (and UEC post-launch) penalties for attacking too many ships that don't fight back (or of a specific type, for instance medium cargo or starters) in too short a span. Let's say you defeat 3 or 4 passive/unoccupied ships in the span of an hour. Maybe two. After that you can keep blasting ships, but if they are player ships, your credits account (aUEC and later UEC when the game launches) automatically pays for an expedited automatic insurance claim at the place the player will spawn in (alternatively their home, if they spawn back in a mobile med bed). And these subtractions will be able to push your account into the red, so if you're just wantonly murder-hoboing, you're crippling yourself. You *have* to try and target ships that are carrying loot & also take that loot, otherwise shooting everything that moves is gonna make you destitute. I know this isn't very realistic, but *some* gamification has to happen, here.
The penalty for a certain offences should be not being able to repair, refuel or claim any ships for a week. That would break the grieve cycle pretty quick.
I think the new insurance and claim system will be huge. Even if someone has lti on a ship, losing it will require them to pay to claim their ship, and the amount is planned to be significant. If they dont have even more expensive upgraded insurance, that means upgrades to the ship chassis, components, and weapons are gone. This means they will have to earn, craft, or buy them again. That means less time they can spend just repeat murdering. Plus, a lot of these players don't even like doing the things required to make money, and it may change behavior or drive them away (both of which are a win to me).
The problem of this lies on a more core issue, the elephant in the room: pay to win. If you can buy with actual money the ships, you don't care about reputation, or ingame money, or any penalties whatsoever. Just go to the hangar and take another ship to continue the killing spree. And the ones killed are the ones with a starter pack or utilitarian ships that have 0 chance of defending themselves or leaving. I just saw a video of a fully crew polaris just flying over a planet killing absolutely anyone in his path for no reason, uncontested, without a scratch, and when they ran out of ammo, they just spawned ANOTHER POLARIS. That's almost 2000 bucks over there in ships. We can't compete with that, is just unfair. This and playability are the problems CIG must adresse ASAP.
The game doesn't have a murder hobo problem. I'd say it was more of a feature and centralized location problem. As planets get more mission locations, bunkers, outposts, distribution centers , and caves, it'll be much harder tracking people down. Right now, head to Jackson's Swap, and you likely find a target. Add player bases, crafting, KoS lists, reputation, and reasons to hold areas and more systems, and you'll likely not see lots of murder hobos. Instead, you'll be shot for trespassing, being a rival guild, robbery, or just plain old wrong place at the wrong time.
I see no problem with murder hobos, the possibility of my bunker having a camper outside is fun, I feel the need to check my corners and always be aware, which fits the vibe of the vast crime-ridden planets. Stanton feels like the wild west, which I love. A guy randomly shooting me dead doesn't break the immersion at all, other than the loading screen. I mean I had a lot of loot and a ship, so why the hell not if you're okay with murder and a CS. Idk, maybe I'm missing something.
I think the only way is to effect UEC. If a murder hobo kills for no gain then it will start causing them to run low in UEC. Repairs and ammo cost more and Rep is not cleared after prison. I had a guy ram me and when I asked why he said he was done for the night and would be out before he wanted to play the next day. Also maybe only 1/2 of prision time can be done off line?
Just have us pick one of 2 or 3 factions. All with their own industry combat etc. you can only attack an opposing faction without taking an xp hit that effects repair and refuel time and price of everything. And bounty hunting your own team murderhobo is 5x normal.
...Pyro is the pvp zone basically ""lawless"". CIG has a solution already, hure security. They stated they wanted every action to creation missions and game play, so almost everything is gonna require hiring security. Most of this game will be non combat gameplay, so security gets plenty of gameplay. It's a bigger picture then most are used to having vision for as it developes
you know what's the best approach to get out of jail? Behaving like a murder hobo and steal mining from NPCs/Players.... Good design! congrats! that will reeducate the players!
1. Players have figured out how to negate armistice zones and are currently killing other players at places like Orison or A18 as they're flying to their hangars. 2. Players have also found out how to knock other players uncon inside stations with armistice zones so they can steal their gear. 3. Players are camping the wormhole gates. Fun. 4. Players are camping the most trafficked mission points of interest and just killing anyone who shows up. Star Citizen is a game that takes you forever to get equipped and arrived at the place you need to get to. To be instantly killed over and over every time you get there is going to cause many players to quit. It will also cost CIG a ton of money from those players who would have spent more had they enjoyed their experience. The fact that CIG released this patch and left it for as long as they have truly shows how little they care about whether players are enjoying their game or not. Just as long as they get their money.
You have some good ideas here. I think I agree with almost all of them. One I disagree with is how immersive imprint control is; I think that'd be easy enough to make a thing in lore. Regarding people using legal alts to supply their criminal accounts… this is something that exists in real life and governments do track money transactions to crack down on it. CIG could easily set things up such that a sufficiently criminal player loses access to the UEC network and has to trade in physical credits or other items of value. "Lawful" players that try to cash in a lot of physical currency for UEC could be monitored and flagged as suspicious, stuff like that.
Interesting idea. I think CIG do keep some transaction log. So maybe they could find these alt accounts by looking at it. Or a Black Mirror style social credit system where being near people with bad rep lowers your rep. But that’s pretty exploitable
@TheSpaceCoder Yes, it's a question of what they do with the info. I think it wouldn't be out of the question of players who cash out a LOT of "unregulated currency" to lose UEE rep or even be committing a crime if they get caught with huge sums of it. Then just have lawful systems deal exclusively in UEC and you have stopped people from just buying gear and shipping it to frontier outlaws. At least without a big laundering operation, which would then probably constitute legit gameplay.
Personal rep will help a lot in this. If I see the rep and they have been a known murder hobo I wont be fooled into helping them. Every game will have griefers the personal rep system helps players identify them easily
The is a very large space themed mmo that adresses this problem very well. EVE online has a reputation and criminal system. Where if your secuirty status falls below a certain thresshold while you can enter high sec (lawful) system npc gate guards will target you, you are also marked hostile to every one player in the vicinity and can legally be killed. if your faction rep is low enough with a particular empire the same can happen but players cannot legally kill you. CONDORD will come and kill you if you break the law in high sec but you can still commit crimes and it can take some time before they respond. This gives players freedom to do what they want even if it ruins another persons game, but it also mean that there will be consequences for your actions. The system isnt perfect. And that is by design. But its really effective at detering hobo killing while not preventing payers who like playing in that style. Low sec in EVE is like the equivalent of pyro there are services and stations but crime isnt really monitered ore regulated. Then the frontier system are the equivalent of null sec. All goverment law enforcement and rules are dictated by players who uave enough power to exert control over a system or systems instead of having built in game mechanics. star citizen should have a modified version of this system as its is freedom done correctly, or at least as correctly as can be so far in a videogame setting
CIG should just make mission destinations instanced. Sure, attack anyone on the way, or leaving a mission, but the mission itself needs to be instanced. It's the only way it'll work. As it is now, you can't do a ground mission in Pyro on the ground, you just blast the NPCs from your ship...if you don't, your ship will randomly be destroyed on the ground. So, instances it is.
in short cig needs better in game communication tools because without good voip, easy groupind, etc. every one is an island. on top of that everyone is your enemy because there's no reason to make a pick-up group and making a pug is next to impossible now.
this should take of itself once the crime/reputation system is fully fleshed out because what CIG wants to do with it is to discourage players from griefing which is the real problem which are players who's only goal is to just disrupt gameplay like if you're a player doing a PVE mission and another player just comes over and kills you repeatedly without actually leaving or taking something from the mission zone like for example lets say that the PVE mission is to take an object and another has the same mission and instead of them doing the mission to get the object they wait for you to go in get said object then kill your character and take the object so that they can turn it in. Which wouldn't be griefing but if they do kill your character and don't take the object and just repeatedly kill you every time you try and retrieve the object from the last place of your death then that's griefing.
No we shouldn't discourage the combat PVP types but at the same time we shouldn't be discouraging the industrial or just leave me TF alone types either. To me there's just not enough prep time or consequence for a "murder hobo" or pvper vs cargo hauler/ miner/ salvager. If you just want to kill something you can just log in get your ship and go find someone to harass, which isn't difficult to do. Any industrial type has to log in get their ship and possibly any ancillary craft needed for the expedition, get to the location, mine/ get cargo loaded/ salvage all of which takes considerable time we're talking hours depending, and when we lose our ship, its not just some quick reclaim and back out there. It's literally an entire play session maybe more than one that we've just lost to give you 5 or ten minutes of fun. When death of a spaceman goes live maybe that will mitigate it to some degree but I doubt it. Maybe if you head to manually load and maintain your weapons and missiles, but even that won't be close to the time sink it costs your average industrial player.🤔
good idea, I agree yet as the vid points out too the immersion of it having repercussions. The NPC's of Law or forces would go after your ass. Yes pyro is lawless but its a take on the wild west. There are groups/ factions that would come after your bottom for killing whomever of theirs. The concept of encouraging players to band together is very very low for it being done. Otherwise there would be some sort of balance. Right now you have no risk in an area that allows all moral following players/npcs and rebels ...and murder hobos. The game like you said has too much time invested by the player trying to do things rather than just get in a ship and blow players up. The mindset of this playstyle is the same as bullys. Just dicks to be dicks.
you can one or the other, not both whenever PvP and PvE mix the PvP always rots out the PvE side Same thing happened with Sea of Thieves and now that game is run exclusively by murder hobos (they just kill and sink you, don't take any treasure if you have any). PvE players don;t want to 'get good' and have no control over when someone decided to ruin there entire play session. Mark my words if this is not addressed quickly the game will become toxic very rapidly
@@markfreeman4727 Atlas pvp servers, Ark pvp servers, completely killed Last Oasis. Just as in real life if you introduce an aggressive species into an environment with no controls it kills off its prey then proceeds to kill off itself. We have a lake here that had northern Pike introduced, it rapidly killed off everything else so now that's all you can find there and those are declining as well.
@ and a lack of PVP servers has killed Sea of Thieves Star Citizen, and devs in general, just need to pick which type of player is there target market. Cause this mixed bag is not satisfying anyone
@@markfreeman4727 PvX has worked plenty of times before. Y'all still keep dropping hundreds into this game every year despite the constant fake reddit posts about gRieFeRs being in every single server, at every single station, OM point and rest stop. God forbid you stop seething so hard about dying in a video game and just have basic situational awareness.
It's worth keeping in mind that CIG has to act in jurisdictions where relevant legislation is in force. Here, there is the Online Safety Act 2023. This does cover online multiplayer virtual environments like the SC PU. SC players must be protected from illegal content and harmful activities. Harmful activities defined include: toxic behaviour; cyberbullying and hate speech. Platforms are required to implement measures to detect and address harmful activities. Remember that CIG is located here where this new legislation applies. Penalties include fines of up to 10% of global annual turnover (revenues) or £18 million whichever is greater plus criminal liability for senior managers around child safety in particular.
Huh. I didn’t think of that. I wonder if that’s enforceable in this scenario. I know they moderate and enforce something like this on Spectrum. No idea about in game chat and actions
@@TheSpaceCoder The first person jailed under the Act was convicted for "cyber-flashing" a year ago now. The UK government issued a press release on 31 January 2024 you can find ("Cyber-flashing, epilepsy-trolling and fake news to put online abusers behind bars from today").
yes! this would be a big W. severe consequences are sorely lacking. 'murder hobo' behavior in games like star citizen or eve online would change IMO if there were lasting consequences. it shouldnt be easy to erase past misdeeds and repeat them endlessly. past in-game crimes should stick with the player, requiring significant time and atonement for redemption, and even then, some factions should never accept the player again, possibly in an RNG-based chance. quite literally, 'dont do the crime if you cant do the time.'
There really needs to be an entire aspect of the game designed around criminals. Not just some simple system where you do a bad thing and then go to jail with a minigame required to get out. I mean, like, if you're a repeat offender, you get your registered ships confiscated and license to fly officially revoked in-game. But that won't mean you can't play the game or fly. There should be a fleshed out black market from which you can, for a hefty price, get yourself an "unregistered" ship. Maybe one or two neutral factions that won't report you if you use their services, but going to their installations carries a risk of being caught. Perhaps a reputation system which will allow for an entire off-grid existence. Maybe your private hab is nestled under an outcropping of rocks in a mountain valley. You have to use the black market, your connections and risky jobs to get to the point you can build a landing pad and have services available to you since you can't visit stations. Perhaps you could use a 3rd party to acquire necessities form player trading systems, sort of like the WoW auction house but via a contact cause you'll be flagged if you use it yourself. However, if you do get caught, you face dire consequences. Like, some serious prison time that really sucks. Perhaps there could be a hard to get/expensive, but limited use based on time revival pod for your hab, so if you die in combat or whatever, you won't always just be auto fucked to prison. But all that takes considerable effort. Basically, they could build out this game to really cater to every kind of player. Obviously murder hobos and pirating need to be controlled so everyone can at least have a chance at doing their thing without constantly getting wrecked. But that's where severe consequences and a fully fleshed out "life for the criminal" system comes into play. If, say, a pirate were to risk losing considerable work themselves, then they'd be less likely to go out and just start shooting. If killing another player was punished much more severely than robbing them, it would be less likely to have pirates out and about just killing other players for fun, sort of like how they do now. Maybe they'd just leave alone low-value targets most the time. Maybe then only the few hardcore murder hobo pirates would be the ones dedicated to it and willing to face the consequences. They wouldn't be that numerous because if there were a lot of them active, they'd end up spending a lot of their time in jail so it would reduce the number active in systems. Kind of just a stream of thoughts there... The game could be soooooo good if they manage to actually flesh out all these different aspects of it and offer something for literally any kind of player. The only kind of player that should have a really, really hard time IMO are griefers. If you want to be a murderous pirate, it should still kind of suck, but also offer unique gameplay experiences that make the game seem like a real world.
As with most things in life, I think it's a question of getting the incentive structures right. Piracy is an intended part of the game, and it promises high rewards. However, things that promise high rewards should also promise high risk. The current systems in the game do not make those risks high enough, especially for the kinds of human vultures who pick only on beginner players in ships that are no match for theirs, and who do it simply because they are bullies who can. Having come across the streams of such bullies, it is very often the case that there is NO in game objective being pursued apart from causing other players misery. It is the minority of attackers who are actually stopping to collect cargo or weapons. The AI turrets and defensive systems at surface outposts should have some serious teeth, such that the un-attended ships of players allied with the controlling faction should be quite safe from attack there from lone murder hobos just looking to cause chaos and misery. At that point, if you want those high rewards, bring friends and mount a proper assault, one that has a reasonable chance of YOU dying too.
Hence why i stopped trying to do anything in pyro. Game is buggy and glitchy and wastes your time as it is, i dont need other players to waste my time on top of this too. Killing some Player character for fun is cool in CoD or bf but not in sc.
All for tightening down on this sort of stuff in ways that maintain a vibrant and open universe for all types of players, even the scumbags. Just as long as there is adequate enough NPC response and UX communication that allow players who want a reasonable amount of non-conflict gameplay can find that. I'll have no sympathy for players who can't just kill random people landing or taking off from stations but I'm not particularly onboard with separating PVP and non-PVP players in different servers. I think finding the right solution that adds to the RP of the game and provides players with ways to experience the universe MOSTLY the way they want to will make Star Citizen a MUCH better experience. Anyway, lotsa good ideas 👍 I have faith in CIG for 1.0
What is needed is the reputation system that impact players long term. Having lawful factions starting to dislike you when you blatantly murder people in their jurisdiction can have some effect. Roleplaying Hannibal Lecter would then mean that most landing areas and cities and stations start blocking your access for each of your alts that starts to become assholes. And that would apply to Pyro as well, Pyro lack UEE laws...but i bet that Pyro has "laws" between the different factions that actually rule the system, usually a bullet to the head...
There needs to be a place for the players that don't want to deal with the pewpew posse. A good example is Eve. I mostly live in nullsec (lawless area), but when I am just on for a short time or want some casual low focus time killing, I mine in highsec (a lawful behavior area). The option needs to be there. If either side thinks the other does not have the right to enjoy the game they each paid to play (and play their way), then they are the problem. CIG will sort it out or they won't. The selfishness of both sides of this conversation is a tad disappointing, and makes me remember why I hit F12 as soon as I log on.
I think what they need to do is just shift people like this to an ironman system. Once they die from either a bounty hunter or NPC then it is a permanent death losing all ships/money etc.
For me, they become part of gameplay in Pyro. Do not be caught by them. If they catch you - it’s you who can be caught) and if you wanna fight - you know how to find a battle) Also all of this can make piracy more unpleasant, and it should be counted, measured, etc) But I admit that killing should have some reason. Piracy has reason - profit. Murderer’s reasons are “ha-ha I got ya, I can kill ya” and that’s all.
I think that paying off fines should be very expensive, and once your bounty gets high enough, send AI and player bounty hunters after them. Player bounty hunters will obviously be rare, but AI bounty hunters could be just constantly attacking, every 5 mins. This way it just becomes annoying being a prick all of the time.
The answer is not in game mechanics / punishments, its also not bans or IRL punishments. The answer is balls up and learn to either get good enough to defend yourself or learn how to run away and QT out. The problem isn't murder hobos, its lack of player accountability and skill. 100%
when CIG adds more tedium like fighting fires and more as well as add armor and resistances where smaller guns have no effect on bigger ships the murder hobo issue will be over because the murder hobos will get bored and find another twitch game. leaving the game for people that like PVP and SIMs
It would be nice if the police in the game were like police in the world and didn't immediately open fire on a ship with a bad guy in it because there were other people on that ship.
There are levels of Skill in disciplines of Star Citizen and levels of combat that should be equalized between them. So that you did good or you did bad stems from gameplay than an individual standing.
the only real consequence that would stop a dedicated murder hobo/troll, would be a perma ban and no way to ever get a second account. limit accounts to one and force ppl to register their account with RL ID-Card and biometrics, face id must be checked permanently while playing so you cant cheat the system. thats the only way to stop these idiots, everything else is just restricting everyone else. the trolls have nothing to lose, they just get a new burner account.
They need to give us a way to get our gear back. That would make being killed by a murder hobo not as bad. 13yrs in and we STILL dont have a way to recover gear is f'ing bs. If they absolutely refuse to give us an option to do that, and are hard stuck on making us go recover our gear off our body, then they need to make the game spawn us in the NEAREST hospital automatically and not our home base. Which is quite literally how it works irl. If i love in new york but get injured on a trip to florida, the ambulance isnt going to transport me to new york for treatment. Thats stupid. And i understsn they have this "clone/regen" mechanic but that could still be a thing, while making it easier on players.
Once/if the economy ever becomes player controlled you can blacklist them so eventually they cant ever do anything. Like. Oh. So and so is online. Guns up. Etc. kinda like eve onlines standing setting where u can just perma red someone to always show up hostile on your radar
What about a player based justice department. Where you could sign up for a police academy, spend like half an hour going threw mini games that pertain to civil rules. Then you are granted the status of system police. Given a loaner police ship and sent out to patrol. You have access to a police net that sends out reports of wrongdoers. And to protect against police brutality a report system against the police would be emplamented.
I love the game: but the RDM MurHo’s are the worst part. We all know pyro is lawless and pirates are a thing: but historically pirates were people out to make money, not murder people for the joy of it. Everything in pyro has a RDM aspect to it with no downside for the offenders. I did kinda enjoy when the prison in Stanton had the instant elevator death bug, trapping all the pirates in there for a couple days.
Elite Dangerous has the same problem... what I do is get payback.... you can get torpedo'd unloading cargo in safe area's, best way to deal with them is note the name and add them to your KOS list.
I like to think of this topic taking me back to my career and in GTA Online on my Xbox 360 *before* I discovered Star Citizen. I still enjoy today how that online (nonMMO) game brings some life to life and immersion traffic from the NPC’s actions in the game. changing servers because of random agro players can some times be an unwelcome nuisance. switching to a join another 100 players or private servers gets boring. Thing I love about watching videos from creators like Mongrel Squad, Goodish Gamer, CobraTV and my favorite *Citizen Kate (and Will)* on sharing there journey on telling a story of how a well prepared player or group(s) publish a story that ended with an unexpected surprise that ended up being either informative, educational, entertaining and D: “All of the above”
I think a real solution should be making Stanton more dangerous for criminals. I'm talking AI bounty hunters constantly coming for criminals within UEE space. (Planatary orbit) not being able to use City ports for landing or being arrested/killed at security stations. And of course higher player bounty payout. Pyro should feel like a PVP server hop. It should be filled with murder hobos. Its where you go to make a fortune in the face of peril. But stanton should absolutely be dangerous for criminals.
I advocated for a balanced system for well over a decade but honestly those days are gone. This company and community is nothing like what it once was and what remains is honestly horrifying on multiple levels. Would rather burn down the glax then conform to this culture... Its not greifing or murder hoboing. Its war against the world.
This is always excellent to see, CIG knows these anal retentives will play to their strengths, CIG needs to the data to bring about a nice REBALANCE. Ive 4 accounnts so dont care, and whe i do, i'll group up. In fact we're already seeing security factions/groups policing Pyro to newter these cowards. Luv it
The idea that CIG "could" do these things is in direct contradiction to what they have proven. They can't do these things. Adjustable fees for unwanted murder hobos? Nah, CIG can't program that. Otherwise Bounty Hunting 2.0 would be a thing and not collecting dust in some back office drawer being ignored. Prison? Again, nope, the prison system if not completely bugged to failure is a joke. Slaughter a server, go to jail log off come back and rinse repeat tomorrow. Did I mention it's been a broken bugged out mess where the mechanics don't work to the point even the merit system is useless and players often get locked in a spawn closet? Fines? The economy system in SC is broken beyond repair. NPC hostility? NPC functionally are glitched range targets. Or aim bots that target friendly no crime stat players one tapping them through walls. What CIG is capable of doing and what could be done are miles apart.
At the moment the game has a "game not working" problem.
It has a "game badly designed" too. It is like none of them ever played an MMO.
I said something like this once in-game and I was chewed out by like 30 guys. Here's the kicker, 14 of the 30 that answered my question on what ship they bought with actual money spent more than 250 USD on a ship, just a ship, not even the starter package. It's basically sunk cost fallacy at this point.
@@iiamnev 🤡
A18 is cursed
It also has a dev cope problem, the moment something critical pops up, Nightrider-CIG will delete it. So they end up with trash devs like Yogi-CIG who went to school for audio engineering but is now the head of PTU development. Make it make sense CIG
I like the idea of a GTA style wanted system. Eventually, having hammerheads chase you down and stations no longer allowing you to land.
I dont think this is the key, it will be a badge of honour to most, I remember the start of EvE, the wanted system was like a display skill!! It could be if the punishment was harsh enough, say 95% of your UEC and in game purchased ships confiscation!!
@1R3TR0 i like that idea, more of a freezing and or seizing assets style punishment.
Log off and back on only to find that FBI CIG confiscated your ships and UEC, haha. Not saying that's how it should be done but it made me laugh inside.
@@1R3TR0 Nah, that's too absurdly rough. Also, the law system /should/ be a deterrent to many, and a test of skill to many others. Making the penalties absolutely stifling or inescapable just ain't it.
Oh yes! I like this idea! level 4-5 wanted level having larger ships come in.
In a game like WoW where when you get ganked, you have a quick spawn and you're back in the game, this is a "haha ok asshole you got me" moment. In this game, where we're already fighting massive amounts of bugs and every time you die you will most likely lose all your stuff, be respawned across the galaxy, lose thousands of credits, and wait 15-40 minutes for your ship to be claimed, It is just not cool to attack players who are just minding their own business. It does make me rage quit some days and it's keeping me from exploring new parts of the game right now.
I never been to Pyro for this exact reason
@@nikoulph I'm a new player currently day 7 of the experience and after day 4 i moved to pyro and I'm enjoying it a lot. PvP is a force that makes progress more risky but also more rewarding. I love the 200k salvage mission cos it's a great reason for PvP. Its not all bad. There will always be griefers in mmo games, this is how this genre works
Also the AI is too stupid to defend spawn areas from attackers.
@@MT2LOL perhaps your view is based differently on how much time you can play this game. Thats the shitty part. as SeanLeprechaun ponited out you do x y z = lots of time.. just to get smoked for NO reason.
@@JP-fm1oz All the ppl i spoke with from different orgs or just random players during the time i played which was mostly around 18 hours each day for a week they didnt really have any situations when anyone got killed for no reason. You can get hunted by griefing/toxic pvp orgs for crying in global chat about pvp, if you are doing anything industry/blue collar related and you have any loot on you ppl usually kill for loot or to prevent you from having loot which is also a viable strategy. If any area is contested for loot or mission type/spawn or resource you can get killed there cos you are in a contested zone. Everything has a reason but ppl think they die for no reason and cry about it.
I want them to keep focusing on bug fixes and stability but when they are done with that I would like the beginnings of a proper reputation system.
You mentioned ED. One thing they did well is hitscan weapons! Turrets are a hundred times more effective as a deterrent with those! And of course the ATC response if your notoriety goes up. The only way murder hobos will stop is if they face opposition they can't beat. They boast about PVP all day long, but they really don't want to take a fight they might lose. They're only interested in seal clubbing
The prison system would be an infinitely stronger to deterrent if we could not transfer Merits. The problem with prison (besides the bugs) Is that pretty much every org has one or multiple merit accounts and everyone transfers their extra merits to this account so they can instantly get their allies out of jail.
Takes 15 minutes to run from your apartment to your ship, another 5 to leave atmo. Main reason I don't play as much as I'd like is just the fact that some asshat gets his jollies off killing players for no reason at all.
I mean if you stay at a big glitchy city then sure, but this is why you should be staying in a further away station that lets you exit it faster. I'm a new player on day 7 now and since day 4 im in pyro and i need around 3 min to get out of station including getting out of bed/medbed get suit and gear on and go to hangar and leave.
@@MT2LOL One of the big draws in SC is personal hangars that you can decorate and spawn into. They went to great lengths to create and stabilize hangar persistence. It's also where everything tied to your cash shop and subscription items spawn. And your suggestion is that nobody ever use them.
And, to top it off, setting your respawn to a station doesn't prevent the murder hoboes from preying on people who don't want to engage them, it just allows them to get back into the target zone roughly 8 minutes quicker. Even on a station, you're 3-5 minutes from hab to hangar and another 3-15 to reclaim the ship you lost. And you're still out anything you were dumb enough to load into the ship, which CIG have gone to great expense to supply with storage and weapon racks.
At this point, anybody who wanders out of a station with anything aboard other than contracted cargo, an undersuit, helmet, and multitool is just asking for it, Stanton or Pyro.
I haven't got all that many hours into the game. Most of it not in my ship. But even I, with probably less than 5 total real world hours flying, have been blown up 3 times, only 1 of which might have been a legit pirate attack, given I had a whole 12SCU of low value cargo aboard. I say might, because whoever it was dragged me out of quantum, and might not have known what I was carrying.
Kinda like NPCs. They attack you on site . Why isn't anyone crying about them? Because it's not a real person lol.
@@jasonmaxwell9762 its normal for npc to dont behave exactly like a human being is supposed to do... sociopath are also like that i think you just dont make the good comparaison... at least the npc dont have fun after and it doesnt make him more of a psycho, feeling rewarded for hes bad behavior, skill issue for not being able to kill an npc vs greedy sociopath are totaly 2 thing that you cant compare maybe you need to be more irl than in gaming universe to understand that kind of difference i guess your more of the side of the sociopath than human being seriously your comments its all we need to understand what kind of human you are
So its not the players its the game thats the problem. If ppl are playing in a lawless area, they should be able to do whatever they want. The consequences of dealing with that though, should not be 30+ minutes of getting out of a spawn zone lol
Hum thinking about pvp flagging.
What about reverse flagging?
Players who want to be lawful will turn on their transponder and show their identifiers
Players who don’t want to be lawful can not turn on their transponder. So if you see a ship on your radar and there is no identification along with it, it’s probably a pvp’er.
Limit the ability to dock at stations with your transponder off.
Or even make it a crime to enter “controlled space” with your transponder off. 🤷♂️
Stanton is chill. And Pyro should not be regulated.
The thing is… this is not a story expansion. And it shouldn’t be favorable to everyone. There is only 2 systems present from the 100 planned.
They choose pyro as the one from the hardest and most anarchic systems. There is no need to change that, it’s just not for everyone, and its fine.
All the murderhobos and pvp madness there only present because of 2 simple reasons:
1: Pyro is capping at 500/500. It’s like ten times the intended population there. It’s overcrowded. Instead of being a desert with scarce player contacts it’s a crowded place. This is not it’s natural state, this is the overcrowded state of the system. It will self regulate itself once population saturates between more systems.
2: Contracts are broken. Performance is horrible. If you sit at waiting for elevators to open for half an hour, and spend another hour scanning an asteroid cluster for enemies that doesn’t spawn because they are bugged, then wait an hour, because contracts doesn’t appear at all, and even if they do, the npcs just teleport around, it’s just natural that you won’t start a new contract, rather just find a non-tedious and broken way to play, even if its just the arcade part of the gameplay without any reward. People are just bored.
Yeah Pyro is Arena Commander with extra steps.
CIG could still toy around with the reputation system, though. Say you kill someone affiliated with the headhunters in headhunter space ... your own headhunuter rep could take a hit since they don't want you to mess with their assets, even to a point where you aren't granted service at stations/outposts or even attacked on sight - that way, your actions HAVE consequences, even in a lawless system like pyro, forcing you to put in at least some gameplay related consideration before destroying something/someone only based on a non-gameplay related reason.
Nothing like getting a Crimestat because an Ally NPC walking in to your line of fire...
That's one of my favourite things about SC's on-foot combat; no cheesy magic saves from bad practices and stupid choices. This mechanic, in particular, teaches muzzle discipline. Lack of muzzle discipline is one of the most common reasons for an AD to become a fatal firearms accident so kudos to the developers for having the basic human decency to honour the memory of the many human beings who have lost their lives to this kind of firearms accident.
A death penalty where a player's character is permanently killed after repeated murder convictions could also be a good addition closer to a 1.0 release. It requires death of a spaceman and a lot of other mechanics like rare crafting blueprints to serve as a deterrent. Although it could be a powerful and immersive way of discouraging players from randomly murdering.
not really.. your death will be permanent as well after a while.. and killing people requires little to no great equipment, the murder hobo is always at the advantage of having nothing to lose. and there is always the option of having a burner account, just for trolling..
I think some sort of blackbox / mobiglass recording system for ship and player kills in lawless zones need to be implemented, it'll give a player the option to upload the data to the UEE and have offending players put on a "caution list" while in UEE space. Basically the same as a player talking to their friends saying this guy killed me in pyro, be careful if you see em.
It doesn't stop the players doing their murdering, but just a reminder that the bounty hunters, merc factions and UEE may get wind of their murderous ways and be keeping an eye out.
The last couple of times I got murdered, the little green eye in the upper left of the screen was showing. That means the com array was up, and the murder was recorded and sent to the Advocacy. Which means whoever did it got a crime stat (level 3, IIRC, for murder). Doesn't seem to matter, since, as TheSpaceCoder says, they can just log in with their alt for the couple of hours their character is in Klesher. And if it doesn't work in Stanton, it's unlikely to work in Pyro.
The behavior won't go away until meaningful measures are taken. It has to be made painful to be a murder hobo. Painful enough that only the truly psychotic continue to engage in it. CR once laid out all the things that were planned to combat this sort of gameplay, up to and including eventual account termination for the absolutely incorrigible. One of the better things that was mentioned was that getting enough points in that griefer box would add a designator to your tag that you were open game for anybody and everybody. You could be engaged on sight by anyone without them getting a crime stat. Try moving around the 'verse with that flag hanging over your head. You'll get all the PVP you could ever wish for, but probably wouldn't enjoy it for very long.
That was 10 or 11 years ago, of course, and we're still waiting while these scrofulous a-holes ruin things for others. Maybe in 2025...
Increased security response and working rep system are definitely needed. It makes no sense that you can essentially camp in someone's front yard and kill all their customers and business partners who come to visit without consequence. The outpost should want the intruder GONE and be able to take steps towards that goal according to the locations resourses and ability.
An organized group or even supremely talented individual may still be able to lock down a location, but they will constantly have to fight against npcs, which even if they win, should clue in all but the dumbest players that maybe this isn't a good place to land right now...
One of the only sensible comments in here so far.
The intent was always to have bounties issued, they actually were for a while way back when. But larger and larger fines, long reclaims times, rep limiting respawn locations to crap systems will take care of it. Murderhobos are always broke, they do no game mission loops or salvage if it takes 2 hours to reclaim their ship and they can not expedite they will get bored fast.
I personally hunt them in my LN, murderhobo's mostly suck at combat and if I can get a solid hit with an S3 missile then they are shieldless and in many cases damaged before I reach gun range. I have taken down most fighters murderhobo's fly without too much issue,and I can always run. Worst case my LN gets blown up it is a fast claim process.
So, what's your response to many orgs being focused on pvp-"pirate"-griefing? {I say "pirate" here because they don't actually pirate, they just want to kill}.
@@Vandreal_Wolf Org rep will exist (eventually) so like player rep it will drag the murderhobo orgs to crap systems, endless bounties, longer reclaim times, etc. The idea was org rep builds and goes in the toilet slower so once you are at the bottom you are staying there for a long time.
As well having a new guy setup a new org and then everyone transfering to it ,just brings all the individual bad rep to the new org rep tanking pretty instantly.
This buggy game finds so many ways to kill you from falling through floors to elevators to the train all before you get to the hangar. Then you have to deal with can you enter your hangar. will the hangar doors open only to be kicked out of the server or have a crash wipe out your ship and gear. Who needs murder hobos to make all that worse. The answer is no one.
@@sirbalendor5600 I look at your comment completely different at the end. Murder hobos is the least of my concern after dealing with all the other issues in the game. I much rather die to a player a 1000 times than to die to any bug once.
@@blackmamba___Facts. Nothing more frustrating when you die to something thats not your fault. If a player kills you, its 100 a your fault problem, because you could practice combat and become good enough to fight back. But instead you chose to be a cargo trader and refuse to engage in combat 🤷♂️
@@BrokenImmersions Kinda hard to fight back when you're doing trading or mining or other non-combat activity, even if you're a good combat pilot. It's hard to do non-combat activity in a combat ship and it's hard to do combat in a non-combat ship.
I think you are right, to much idiots who just kill for the kill and anger they produce, this is unhealthy for a game like Star Citizen. This will drive away people over time and then are only the hobos left and then they are gone too and the game dies
If the game dies from lack of effective moderation or security mechanics, then it deserves to.
I must be playing on the wrong servers, I do mining all the time and only fought one player in the last year. Everyone makes it seem like this is an hourly problem???
@ Not what I was talking about, but feel free to interpret stuff into what I wrote...
Also: your experience is anecdotal, you got luck then, me as well, but there are so many more who were unlucky.
I was talking about the issue in general
@ I guess I wish my big gripe about this game was due to dying to other players. Unfortunately my issues with this game is bigger than anything another player can do to me.
I mean i just view them as reavers from firefly. A fix is. Make personal standings. Like in eve online. So if you kill me. I can redlist you so in the future if your on my scanner you show up as red
My last session, I spent several hours fighting the game, the tractor beam, and the janky cargo system, trying to complete a single mission. Phasing through bulkheads, random ship issues where, for instance, the engine would stop responding when trying to move the ship, even to include getting clear of the station, but the mission not accepting that I had the cargo with me and refusing dock clearance to get back onto the station to pick it up.
In the middle of this, a Hornet somehow rammed my ship. Game bug, right? Anyway, after several hours, I finally had everything. And, so far, no murder hobo activity. Until I finally got everything working, made my initial jump (In a Cutter, with 7SCU of random worthless cargo). Naturally, the delivery zone was on the far side of the planet, and quantum wouldn't route me there around, so I had to make 2 jumps. One to the nav marker, a second to the delivery location.
You guessed it, there was a murder hobo in another Hornet camped there, and as I was reorienting for my second quantum jump. I ate a missile that had to have cost him more than anything he could hope to glean from my wreckage or corpse. And I'm sure whoever it was will be proclaiming loudly that PVP is a right, and I shouldn't expect anything less. The mission? Pyro? Nope, Everest Harbor to Hurston. High sec insofar as SC has that. There is no meaningful downside to these activities.
ETA: Remember when Chris Roberts promised that murder hoboes (which were then called griefers) would eventually only spawn into servers with others of their own kind? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
I mean... Look from one side you undocked in a full pvp game. You consented to this.
From the other side, the game design is kinda shit. Your time vs reward was not really worth the risk. Meanwhile more meta missions easily make tons more cash for a fraction of the time.
The game is also not balanced to encourage people to hire protection. The game is balanced around solo cutters getting heavily outclassed and shot down.
I honestly pin full blame on cig for that.
@@wizywig Yeah, I keep hearing this, but usually from only one side of the equation. It's almost the theme song for fighter pilots hunting industrial players. Like the rapists claiming that the victim dressed provocatively, so she must have wanted it.
ETA means Estimated Time of Arrival, FYI.
@@wizywig CIG's intention for making starter ships getting outclassed is for marketing reasons. They want players to buy bigger ships to protect themselves, it's all marketing.
@ It also means, "edited to add." Strange you didn't know that.
I should have noted I don't mind PVP. you want to fight and take my ship and cargo fill your boots. One of the absolute best PVP interactions I had was at Grim Hex when we only had it and Port Olisar. There was a pad camper at Grim, I helped another guy clear the camper. The guy I helped turned around and shot me when he realized I had a bounty on me,I had kind of forgotten about it. It was perfect, he apologized, in chat but it was all good by me and we had a good laugh.
I'm fine with PVP with a goal. But murderhobos will lead to the game being nothing but murderhobos.
21:06 this won't lock anyone out of their paid for ships: they just have to comply with the law if they want access back, which is actually fine.
Because you paid a buttload of money it doesn't means you are not subject to the game mechanics, as, when you die in game, you are forced back to a landing location to be able to have your ship back. Insurance is part of the game, and you have to play the game to benefit from its mechanics. Going to prison "IS" also part of the game.
Another solution could be to actually remove the Murder Hobo right to be revived and have an heir to inherit it's goods (Death of a Spaceman), at east as far as the Law extends. In Pyro it could get more complicated because the fresh character will have no reputation or alignment and in any frontier game you would have to fight for your stuff anyway, ans there is nobody to appeal to.
CIG should definitely put out a legal note or memorandum or whatever for using the game and how to use it, with contract termination explained.
Death of a spaceman is a roleplaying mechanic as much as anything. Do murder hoboes really care about such things? These are the same people who make the clown avatars and treat the game as no more than a set of mechanics that their whole purpose is disrupting.
@@TheBetterManInBlack but losing reputation with your faction and having to start all over makes life difficult for the MH. It won't stop the most dedicated but the average ones may be yes.
@@Leptospirosi I mean, sure, if they have a faction? If they're not just jumping into their ships, seal clubbing until they're out of ammo/fuel, and then hitting self destruct to respawn fully fed, watered, and with their ship replaced for free, fully fueled and reloaded. There aren't any real expenses involved in that loop. Not even the relatively minor hassle of buying 7auc bottled water, since they'll be respawning before they die of thirst.
@Leptospirosi they all have second accounts for this reason.
I will say that during 4.0 when Kleschner was bugged and you couldn't get out, boy, crime in Stanton dropped real fast! Having a crime stat and going to prison had an actual meaningful consequence. Repeat offenders have ever increasing prison sentences to the point where you go on time out for a week or MORE.
Crime dropped not only because of that, but because the usual suspects flocked to Pyro. Prison was completely bricked yeah, but that doesn't mean it didn't have meaningful consequences prior. I've spent hours and hours in the slammer, often over illegal PVE missions and someone flipping the Comms Array back on without it properly showing. Proposing to have someone locked out of playing for a week, because of a different playstyle than you, is batshit crazy though.
@@TyrHeimdal Repeat offenders.... YEARS LOCKED AWAY! Or total deletion of the account! They will learn... oh, they will learn!
I don't care much for NPC police serving justice exclusively. Players should have an option to place a players name on a list that all players can reference also giving that player negative reputation as well as offering to add whatever amount they like to a bounty fund. If another player captures or kills the bounty, they must deliver the criminal or his corpse(s) to administrative office to receive the bounty. The criminal cannot respawn in prison until after the player or corpse is processed by the admin office. So if you're a criminal, the bounty hunter can put you "on ice" for a limited amount of time depriving you of activity the same way you deprived others of the time they invested. So if you're a big enough asshole, the bounty hunters can determine how much of an asshole they can be to you, for a time that is dependent on how many people have added you to the bounty list. More crimes reported equals more "ice time" the bounty hunters are given to process you before they collect the bounty. Powerful deterrents are needed to have powerful results.
love that idea. As i noted you can not see any name tags of those that kill you. Which just beefs up the incentive for ass hats to continue.
That was one of the first mechanics promised when the game was still in kickstarter. Still waiting for its implementation, of course.
@TheBetterManInBlack so was the pvp slider and here we are today...
@ Yeah, I mentioned that in another post. They're now saying it's not gonna happen, and I'm not happy. Thing is, PVE players don't need PVPers to enjoy the game, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the other direction.
If you require the ability to drag an unwilling participant into your gameplay, maybe there's something wrong with that gameplay.
Player run reputation systems are always a terrible idea. They're good in principle, right up until a less reputable group decides to brigade someone they don't like. A trader can end up with a Charles Manson reputation just by coming onto the wrong persons radar. Equally, people tend to instantly believe what they read without question. Say a guy (lets call him Dave) is getting legitimately pirated, he only manages to catch 1 name, and that name is a salvager (Roger) who just jumped in to the wrong place at the wrong time. Dave angrily gets on global chat declaring that Roger 'griefed' him and calling for everyone to downvote his rep. Again suddenly a totally innocent player has a tanked rep. Now lets revisit those less reputable orgs, who should be the ones impacted by this system... they upvote each other etc.
In the case of the bounty list scenario you're suggesting, again it would be very easy to manipulate.
Whilst my own org is 'the bad guys', we play the game, we don't use griefer exploits / tactics. We have a solid rep for honouring our word. That said, I personally have pirated a guy and he got super angry, calling out my team-mate in chat (the only name he saw) and declaring a 5mil bounty (which was a lot at the time). My buddy respawned and I announced in chat that had killed him and I had his body. The guy came to inspect the body and paid me the 5mil *while my respawned buddy was standing next to me*. We got his cargo, and a 5mil bonus. Thats a more gamepaly focused but still very valid example.
In game, gameplay based faction rep could work. Player controlled rep will never work. sad but true.
In the case of gate campers, they could put security forces (turrets, ships) at the gates or create armistice zones coming out the gate. I think this should happen. For other places though, I'm ok with way the things are for the most part. This is coming from someone who got jumped today while offloading cargo at a "less than reputable" location. It really sucked and, when I went back, I got beat again because I didn't have anything that could take down a Carrack, but with that said, I'm, ok with it. It cost me 300k, but I learned that maybe I should sell at TDDs if I want to limit my risk, even if it costs me a little per SCU to keep the risks low.
I would maybe dull the aggressor's advantage somehow, either by making armor more effective or some kind of one-hit shield that takes five minutes to recharge, or some other means to ensure that you can't kill a player by jumping them with a submachine gun. From the moment a player knows they're getting into an actual fight if they attack someone and not just shooting first and getting away with it, you're gonna see the murderhobo stats drop sharply (exceptions for Snipers and stabbers, sneak kills are their BnB). You can still catch players off guard and dispatch them, but you'll have to put actual work into it.
I like the idea of if your reputation gets too bad you start getting chased by patrols and these patrols could be invulnerable to your weapons and have deadly accuracy and you would just have to run. At least when it comes to entering different territories and being in "lawful systems”. CIG is so quick to fix duping for their non-existent economy, but they're so reluctant to make life difficult for the people who make life difficult.
Nothing stops them in the end, but that's why we need charactersto be associated with one server when game is ready. So in addition to the game system, players also make a name for themselves in their own servers, a parrallel irl reputation among their peers. That's how you transform grief into drama into org wars and doing so into game content: a reason for pve player to gather ressource for their org and for the org to protect them to weapon themselves against others.
😂 Great video. Love your description and use of “Murder Hobo”. Why can’t the mobiglass keep track of them, and light them up like a Christmas tree
Which is why it should be impossible to fully avoid the risk of been reported when doing any criminal activities.
It should always be possible to always report a crime committed, be it by bringing the mobiglass of a corpse or the black box of a destroyed ship, when a comm array isn't there for quick report.
Once upon a time, we had mission to bring back destroyed ships' blackbox and recover information on murdered NPC.
I sure hope that this can come back as an emergent gameplay option which would, then, report crimes on players and NPC responsible.
Without risks, we can't expect consequences, to begin with.
we need some kind of reputation that you see on others that does not affect the game .. but you see that the person in front of you killed a lot of players .. or didn't do that.
Every PVP game has a murderhobo problem.
The best way for SC to handle it is to have kill rights on players, and immediate penalties. Inability to access missions in the system where you acquired the kill rights, the ability to submit the kill rights to all lawful players in the system, and payout for dealing with that, plus the player's bounty that issued the kill rights to be global. Also, the player shouldn't be able to dock anywhere lawful until they have followed one of two possible ways to resolve it; pay the player an agreed upon amount to cancel the kill rights, or...well, get killed.
A way to avoid scumming this system is that a player with kill rights on them cannot remove the kill rights from another player. Not foolproof, I know, but it vastly discourages combat in high security systems.
Kill rights also would not apply in a system like Pyro. You want to be a murderhobo? Go to unsecure space. You want to benefit from high sec? Don't be a murderhobo.
CIG also needs a system like CONCORD in EVE. If you kill a player and they press the "press charges" button, security needs to spawn in force, quickly, then slowly despawn.
"Prison" in SC is not intended to be a deterrent but a change of scene and setting. Armistice zones, landing zone security, and station turrets are intended to be partly a preventative measure and partly a deterrent depending on context. Ultimately, it's the HEAT system of escalation which is intended to function as a deterrent and limiter on antisocial PvP when it becomes too repetitive. This doesn't always work because there's a lot of left field in a vast, dynamic game environment. So the trick, as IRL, is to plan ahead and take shenanigans as a given in every session. The question, before you encounter them, is always where? And that's where you don't want to go if you're not yet drunk enough to feel as if participation is meaningful!
The issue I have with the whole murder hobo scene, and this is a general MMO human/design problem is that is a lot broader than just mere murder hobos. When people who are not **playing** participate in a game, they act outside of the norms anticipated by the design perspective of the game. Murder hobo gaming occupies a niche of non-play which includes some seemingly very minor things like Perpetual Sprinting and PvP bunnyhopping.
The problem is that there is a general lack of variety and appropriateness to what are often considered mundane limitations and, more importantly, those limitations don't scale dynamically. If we take the simpler behavioural deviation of perpetual sprinting, the fix is very simple. In-game, hunger and thirst hit you every IRL hour with fatal consequences (that's six universe hours - yet I've never heard of anyone dying of starvation as a consequence of missing lunch or dinner that one time). It certainly doesn't help that hunger and thirst escalations aren't scaled appropriately with the intensity of activity. Just, merely, the hourly consumption demand has been a cause of many complaints which confirms the mechanic's utility for discouraging unwanted in-game behaviour. So, if we wanted to discourage perpetual sprinting / running, it would be a simple matter of making the hourly hunger/thirst limit a consequence of perpetual jogging/running and ratchet the limit right up to every 10 IRL minutes for perpetual sprinting. Meanwhile, characters who walk everywhere are allowed up to 12 IRL hours, in-game, before the character expires from dehydration and 84 IRL hours, in-game, before the character expires from starvation.
Don't want to be constantly feeding and watering your character like an overworked horse? Don't be delusional about what a human being can or can't do. Simple. And it's no more than the addition of interesting detail to the limitation which prevents players from running around on foot at 80km/h like you could in Doom if you knew how to use a trackball.
If we look through the same lens at the murder hobo issue, there is a lack of granularity and detail in the HEAT escalation. Player bounties are not adequately reinforced with rival NPC bounty hunters racing in and, when NPCs do get involved, it's always the same tactical opening with the same sequence of escalation. NPC bounty hunters should show up with a plan and an approach which is varied enough to be unpredictable while also accounting for how the murder hobo is situated and going about his business. So, while our intrepid murder hobo thinks he's safe scoping an outpost, a ship flies somewhere, at the edge of sight and sound, and is gone. A common occurrence in busy ground locations on a busy server. Ten minutes later, a ground vehicle is rolling up behind him at speed and the ground is exploding around him with heavy machine-gun fire. What will pass through the murder hobo's mind, first? The 20mm round about to hit him right between the legs, or the piece of razor-sharp stone shrapnel thrown up by an inconveniently placed miss?
What's a murder hobo to do when what's gone around comes around - even when other players don't want to play with him?
Alternatively, for the same murder hobo MO, it might be a A1 for a bit of fun, followed up by an escalation to A2 if the squad of NPCs covered by the bombardment don't nail him first. It should never just boil down to one end and needs to be a varied, unpredictable selection of one of several tactical options for each of a variety of situations a murder hobo cultivates - and, by now, I expect CiG's data on this must be pretty comprehensive - more than enough to classify murder hobo MOs and tailor several different responses for each type. The key to this is escalation. Make it playable. Give him a few rounds he can win. A lot of these guys are just bored and, unfortunately, OB1-Kenobi ain't there to wave his hand in their face and tell them to take a moment and rethink their lives. That comes down to gameplay which evolves into hard, in-game experience. If he's good enough, he wins several rounds before he gets crushed by the next escalation because that's how policing works IRL. So that's how you simulate policing in a game - as a series of escalations which build up to overwhelming force.
This brings us back to "prison" which is just more content to a genuine player. To someone who's out pranking, griefing or otherwise trying to restrict access to content or spoil someone's in-game experience, this forced change of scene is very much a punishment because it takes away control. And, to be perfectly clear, griefers are control freaks. You don't break them by playing their game. You break them by taking away their perceived control. When working as intended, Kleischer is the perfect hammer for this because it doesn't have the same impact for actual players who are caught up there and simply take the opportunity to enjoy some content they probably haven't seen in a while or maybe take an intermission break for dinner and come back to jump in the elevator. There's a lot which could be done to enrich the Kleischer experience and it still wouldn't change the way it impacts griefers because griefers can't play (they think play is 'childish' and they're too narcissistic to do "childish" things). Take their control away and they'll log off and go annoy someone else.
A group of griefers were killing people at the Stanton jump point so i managed to rally almost 20 random people and we ran them out of the area and secured the jump point for other people to be able to jump safely, later the griefers came back with a huge org and it turned into star wars. Unfortunately the lack of VC between our group and lack of coordination we were all slowly killed, however we did manage to hold the jump gate for about an hour allowing multiple people to safely leave pyro. If the game wasnt so buggy we could have large scale battles happen like this more often, When it does happen though it gives me a little bit of hope for this game again
This is exactly the sort of awesome emerging gameplay that I want. I think people are a little too up in arms about this "murder hobo"-thing. I do agree that it's not perfect as it is now, there needs to be more risk for the attacker.
But Pyro is Pyro and you should be prepared to fight, it's not only a PVE zone.
Strong intervening NPC forces should deal with such a case in first place instead
The problem with that is that you just become content for other people. They make money out of it. You, on the other hand, probably wasted your time and didn't get to complete whatever your initial plan was. If you enjoyed it, that's okay.
How long until it seriously gets in your way though?
@@CptFugu Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. And to my knowledge nothing stops you from switching servers in the current state of the game, so circumventing a gatecamp is not hard. Same with doing missions in other locations.
Now if you expect to be safe in pyro and you get ganked thats on you, it is not supposed to be safe there. Stop being entitled, learn how to minimize risks and accept that the game is not disneyland in space, its dangerous out there.
@ Please, try read past the first sentence before you reply.
How does changing servers help with anything. That really makes no sense. People usually find where gankers are by getting ganked. It is not like switching servers will magically recover the time and money wasted.
I didn't say anything about Pyro being safe, or anything remotely alluding to that effect. And I am seriously doubting you understand the meaning of the word "entitled".
I am not about the game being dangerous. I am about all the danger being on one side, and the rewards on the other.
Auec the money inside SC are centralized and everyone needs money to refuel etc etc... What about a system that involves automatic penalties based on percentage of your total amount. First time you get 2% penalty, 2nd time 4%, and so on, until the Hobo Murder is left without a dime (and possibility to ruin the game for others)?
Or perhaps a claim could be made for the total of the loss (including personal equipment) to the Police and have that deducted from their Galactic Bank account.
I would want something like this as it means its a waste of time/money for the griefer too (if its heavily repeated). It can be balanced out with prison time (mining only) to reduce the penalty
An EVE Online style system security rating would help, with huge numbers of NPC police spawning to deal with griefers in high security areas. Though that model works well in EVE because there are soo many systems that pirates have plenty of low/null security systems to go be pirates in and there's lots of high security systems where if you're smart you shouldn't get ganked (yes suicide gankers exist, but if you know what you're doing you shouldn't get ganked by them). With SC there aren't many systems so you're not spreading out the pirates and gankers so a PvP flag system and strong NPC response to attacking NPCs should probably happen.
Losing the ability to refuel, repair and rearm would help. Since a lot of people in Stanton can go to any moon and top off. Regardless of their CS level.
"Seize the Imprint" sounds like fun bounty hunting/infiltration gameplay. Go to location X, hack the sphere, get an "imprint conveyance key," take that to a prison station within a timed duration, and drop it off for payment (part 1). Part 2 is to go and kill the target to get them into prison.
It's a bad design. It's never worked in any other game in the past. This is the reason why. Either it needs to be consensual PVP or PVE only.
"This time it will be different." (Narrator: it wasn't.)
So I decided to watch the video and I mostly had the same idea, I think the consequences need to be increased, but it still needs to be possible as it is important to preserve the option for a less lawful play style. I agree that there should be more intervention by the different factions for security, for Stanton just ships on patrol and searching and maybe even ground NPCs. I feel that the same should also be done for the Pyro gangs, they still want people to trade with them, so with that if someone affiliated with their gang blows up ships at that station, the person who is blowing up the ships should take a hit, naturally if it is someone in high rep with the gang, the reputation hit should be bigger, and even killing people who are not affiliated should cost some reputation as the gangs would rely and want to deal with other people for trade. For Pyro, I feel that the ground NPCs can play an even bigger role, like straight up waiting for the player to exit the hab and the player has to fight his or her way out, or if in the hangar, they enter the hangar through the cargo elevator. Naturally there are also patrols and station defenses, Idea is players can possibly do stuff like this to destabilize another gang and it would increase their reputation within their main gang as well if they want, but if they are doing it just because, they would eventually exhaust all their options in terms of factions and basically need to be nomadic and stay away from large stations. The final thing is to add an option to get out of the situation while still being wanted, similar to breaking out of klesher, so the player has the ship impounded, and cannot take off, and the player would have to hack terminals to bring their ship up and hack to open the doors or something like that, idea is that their ship is impounded and they have to steal their ship back. No
My 2 cents, player behavior should dictate what content is available to them.
If a player has a high number of player kills, their available missions should be from nefarious mission givers with predominant focus on combat. All of this depends on a reputation system.
If a player has a KOS reputation, they should be accosted by NPCS and players alike in a high sec system. In null sec, free for all, bit missions are limited to Head Hubters etc.
Should a player wish to change their rep, they start from the bottom, I e. Bad rep players wants to get salvaging missions, start with certification while not killing other players for a time
Honestly I think the murder hobo problem would be mitigated a lot by, say, automated aUEC (and UEC post-launch) penalties for attacking too many ships that don't fight back (or of a specific type, for instance medium cargo or starters) in too short a span. Let's say you defeat 3 or 4 passive/unoccupied ships in the span of an hour. Maybe two.
After that you can keep blasting ships, but if they are player ships, your credits account (aUEC and later UEC when the game launches) automatically pays for an expedited automatic insurance claim at the place the player will spawn in (alternatively their home, if they spawn back in a mobile med bed).
And these subtractions will be able to push your account into the red, so if you're just wantonly murder-hoboing, you're crippling yourself. You *have* to try and target ships that are carrying loot & also take that loot, otherwise shooting everything that moves is gonna make you destitute.
I know this isn't very realistic, but *some* gamification has to happen, here.
The penalty for a certain offences should be not being able to repair, refuel or claim any ships for a week. That would break the grieve cycle pretty quick.
I think the new insurance and claim system will be huge. Even if someone has lti on a ship, losing it will require them to pay to claim their ship, and the amount is planned to be significant. If they dont have even more expensive upgraded insurance, that means upgrades to the ship chassis, components, and weapons are gone.
This means they will have to earn, craft, or buy them again. That means less time they can spend just repeat murdering. Plus, a lot of these players don't even like doing the things required to make money, and it may change behavior or drive them away (both of which are a win to me).
The problem of this lies on a more core issue, the elephant in the room: pay to win.
If you can buy with actual money the ships, you don't care about reputation, or ingame money, or any penalties whatsoever. Just go to the hangar and take another ship to continue the killing spree. And the ones killed are the ones with a starter pack or utilitarian ships that have 0 chance of defending themselves or leaving.
I just saw a video of a fully crew polaris just flying over a planet killing absolutely anyone in his path for no reason, uncontested, without a scratch, and when they ran out of ammo, they just spawned ANOTHER POLARIS. That's almost 2000 bucks over there in ships. We can't compete with that, is just unfair.
This and playability are the problems CIG must adresse ASAP.
The game doesn't have a murder hobo problem. I'd say it was more of a feature and centralized location problem. As planets get more mission locations, bunkers, outposts, distribution centers , and caves, it'll be much harder tracking people down. Right now, head to Jackson's Swap, and you likely find a target. Add player bases, crafting, KoS lists, reputation, and reasons to hold areas and more systems, and you'll likely not see lots of murder hobos. Instead, you'll be shot for trespassing, being a rival guild, robbery, or just plain old wrong place at the wrong time.
They really need to increase the ai enforcement of rep/crime stat. Having a scalable response to player actions would change everything.
I see no problem with murder hobos, the possibility of my bunker having a camper outside is fun, I feel the need to check my corners and always be aware, which fits the vibe of the vast crime-ridden planets. Stanton feels like the wild west, which I love. A guy randomly shooting me dead doesn't break the immersion at all, other than the loading screen. I mean I had a lot of loot and a ship, so why the hell not if you're okay with murder and a CS. Idk, maybe I'm missing something.
The first two steps, in my opinion, are making station turrets actually effective and creating AI security response teams.
I think the only way is to effect UEC. If a murder hobo kills for no gain then it will start causing them to run low in UEC. Repairs and ammo cost more and Rep is not cleared after prison. I had a guy ram me and when I asked why he said he was done for the night and would be out before he wanted to play the next day. Also maybe only 1/2 of prision time can be done off line?
Just have us pick one of 2 or 3 factions. All with their own industry combat etc. you can only attack an opposing faction without taking an xp hit that effects repair and refuel time and price of everything. And bounty hunting your own team murderhobo is 5x normal.
Faction rep is rhe key once they gate goods and services behind rep grinds (including access to ships)
Not having shipa uec buyable solves this issue
...Pyro is the pvp zone basically ""lawless"". CIG has a solution already, hure security. They stated they wanted every action to creation missions and game play, so almost everything is gonna require hiring security. Most of this game will be non combat gameplay, so security gets plenty of gameplay. It's a bigger picture then most are used to having vision for as it developes
you know what's the best approach to get out of jail? Behaving like a murder hobo and steal mining from NPCs/Players.... Good design! congrats! that will reeducate the players!
1. Players have figured out how to negate armistice zones and are currently killing other players at places like Orison or A18 as they're flying to their hangars.
2. Players have also found out how to knock other players uncon inside stations with armistice zones so they can steal their gear.
3. Players are camping the wormhole gates. Fun.
4. Players are camping the most trafficked mission points of interest and just killing anyone who shows up.
Star Citizen is a game that takes you forever to get equipped and arrived at the place you need to get to. To be instantly killed over and over every time you get there is going to cause many players to quit. It will also cost CIG a ton of money from those players who would have spent more had they enjoyed their experience.
The fact that CIG released this patch and left it for as long as they have truly shows how little they care about whether players are enjoying their game or not. Just as long as they get their money.
How are people negating armistice zones? I'd like to know what to look out for cause I want to start playing again
They aren't necessarily doing it by choice. This is their holiday season, it happened every year, we won't get anything substantial till february
1 and 2 are bugs, that's on cig to fix. 3 and 4 are just gameplay.
@@that_nmossome people RP as a space trucker, some people RP as a fighter pilot with orders to lock down a high crime area.
You have some good ideas here. I think I agree with almost all of them. One I disagree with is how immersive imprint control is; I think that'd be easy enough to make a thing in lore.
Regarding people using legal alts to supply their criminal accounts… this is something that exists in real life and governments do track money transactions to crack down on it. CIG could easily set things up such that a sufficiently criminal player loses access to the UEC network and has to trade in physical credits or other items of value. "Lawful" players that try to cash in a lot of physical currency for UEC could be monitored and flagged as suspicious, stuff like that.
Interesting idea. I think CIG do keep some transaction log. So maybe they could find these alt accounts by looking at it.
Or a Black Mirror style social credit system where being near people with bad rep lowers your rep. But that’s pretty exploitable
@TheSpaceCoder Yes, it's a question of what they do with the info. I think it wouldn't be out of the question of players who cash out a LOT of "unregulated currency" to lose UEE rep or even be committing a crime if they get caught with huge sums of it. Then just have lawful systems deal exclusively in UEC and you have stopped people from just buying gear and shipping it to frontier outlaws. At least without a big laundering operation, which would then probably constitute legit gameplay.
Personal rep will help a lot in this. If I see the rep and they have been a known murder hobo I wont be fooled into helping them. Every game will have griefers the personal rep system helps players identify them easily
The prefered term is „mobile end-of-life manager“, thank you very much.
The is a very large space themed mmo that adresses this problem very well. EVE online has a reputation and criminal system. Where if your secuirty status falls below a certain thresshold while you can enter high sec (lawful) system npc gate guards will target you, you are also marked hostile to every one player in the vicinity and can legally be killed. if your faction rep is low enough with a particular empire the same can happen but players cannot legally kill you. CONDORD will come and kill you if you break the law in high sec but you can still commit crimes and it can take some time before they respond. This gives players freedom to do what they want even if it ruins another persons game, but it also mean that there will be consequences for your actions. The system isnt perfect. And that is by design. But its really effective at detering hobo killing while not preventing payers who like playing in that style. Low sec in EVE is like the equivalent of pyro there are services and stations but crime isnt really monitered ore regulated. Then the frontier system are the equivalent of null sec. All goverment law enforcement and rules are dictated by players who uave enough power to exert control over a system or systems instead of having built in game mechanics. star citizen should have a modified version of this system as its is freedom done correctly, or at least as correctly as can be so far in a videogame setting
CIG should just make mission destinations instanced. Sure, attack anyone on the way, or leaving a mission, but the mission itself needs to be instanced. It's the only way it'll work.
As it is now, you can't do a ground mission in Pyro on the ground, you just blast the NPCs from your ship...if you don't, your ship will randomly be destroyed on the ground. So, instances it is.
in short cig needs better in game communication tools because without good voip, easy groupind, etc. every one is an island. on top of that everyone is your enemy because there's no reason to make a pick-up group and making a pug is next to impossible now.
this should take of itself once the crime/reputation system is fully fleshed out because what CIG wants to do with it is to discourage players from griefing which is the real problem which are players who's only goal is to just disrupt gameplay like if you're a player doing a PVE mission and another player just comes over and kills you repeatedly without actually leaving or taking something from the mission zone like for example lets say that the PVE mission is to take an object and another has the same mission and instead of them doing the mission to get the object they wait for you to go in get said object then kill your character and take the object so that they can turn it in. Which wouldn't be griefing but if they do kill your character and don't take the object and just repeatedly kill you every time you try and retrieve the object from the last place of your death then that's griefing.
No we shouldn't discourage the combat PVP types but at the same time we shouldn't be discouraging the industrial or just leave me TF alone types either. To me there's just not enough prep time or consequence for a "murder hobo" or pvper vs cargo hauler/ miner/ salvager. If you just want to kill something you can just log in get your ship and go find someone to harass, which isn't difficult to do. Any industrial type has to log in get their ship and possibly any ancillary craft needed for the expedition, get to the location, mine/ get cargo loaded/ salvage all of which takes considerable time we're talking hours depending, and when we lose our ship, its not just some quick reclaim and back out there. It's literally an entire play session maybe more than one that we've just lost to give you 5 or ten minutes of fun. When death of a spaceman goes live maybe that will mitigate it to some degree but I doubt it. Maybe if you head to manually load and maintain your weapons and missiles, but even that won't be close to the time sink it costs your average industrial player.🤔
good idea, I agree yet as the vid points out too the immersion of it having repercussions. The NPC's of Law or forces would go after your ass. Yes pyro is lawless but its a take on the wild west. There are groups/ factions that would come after your bottom for killing whomever of theirs. The concept of encouraging players to band together is very very low for it being done. Otherwise there would be some sort of balance. Right now you have no risk in an area that allows all moral following players/npcs and rebels ...and murder hobos. The game like you said has too much time invested by the player trying to do things rather than just get in a ship and blow players up. The mindset of this playstyle is the same as bullys. Just dicks to be dicks.
you can one or the other, not both
whenever PvP and PvE mix the PvP always rots out the PvE side
Same thing happened with Sea of Thieves and now that game is run exclusively by murder hobos (they just kill and sink you, don't take any treasure if you have any). PvE players don;t want to 'get good' and have no control over when someone decided to ruin there entire play session. Mark my words if this is not addressed quickly the game will become toxic very rapidly
@@markfreeman4727 Atlas pvp servers, Ark pvp servers, completely killed Last Oasis. Just as in real life if you introduce an aggressive species into an environment with no controls it kills off its prey then proceeds to kill off itself. We have a lake here that had northern Pike introduced, it rapidly killed off everything else so now that's all you can find there and those are declining as well.
@ and a lack of PVP servers has killed Sea of Thieves
Star Citizen, and devs in general, just need to pick which type of player is there target market. Cause this mixed bag is not satisfying anyone
@@markfreeman4727 PvX has worked plenty of times before. Y'all still keep dropping hundreds into this game every year despite the constant fake reddit posts about gRieFeRs being in every single server, at every single station, OM point and rest stop.
God forbid you stop seething so hard about dying in a video game and just have basic situational awareness.
It's worth keeping in mind that CIG has to act in jurisdictions where relevant legislation is in force. Here, there is the Online Safety Act 2023. This does cover online multiplayer virtual environments like the SC PU. SC players must be protected from illegal content and harmful activities. Harmful activities defined include: toxic behaviour; cyberbullying and hate speech. Platforms are required to implement measures to detect and address harmful activities. Remember that CIG is located here where this new legislation applies. Penalties include fines of up to 10% of global annual turnover (revenues) or £18 million whichever is greater plus criminal liability for senior managers around child safety in particular.
Huh. I didn’t think of that. I wonder if that’s enforceable in this scenario. I know they moderate and enforce something like this on Spectrum. No idea about in game chat and actions
@@TheSpaceCoder It is.
@@TheSpaceCoder The first person jailed under the Act was convicted for "cyber-flashing" a year ago now. The UK government issued a press release on 31 January 2024 you can find ("Cyber-flashing, epilepsy-trolling and fake news to put online abusers behind bars from today").
Repeat offenders should have their flight license revoked / suspended for a short time in game.
yes! this would be a big W. severe consequences are sorely lacking. 'murder hobo' behavior in games like star citizen or eve online would change IMO if there were lasting consequences. it shouldnt be easy to erase past misdeeds and repeat them endlessly. past in-game crimes should stick with the player, requiring significant time and atonement for redemption, and even then, some factions should never accept the player again, possibly in an RNG-based chance. quite literally, 'dont do the crime if you cant do the time.'
Maybe NPC's in areas with low reputation can increase the number of times your location is ratted on to people who take bounties on them
There really needs to be an entire aspect of the game designed around criminals. Not just some simple system where you do a bad thing and then go to jail with a minigame required to get out. I mean, like, if you're a repeat offender, you get your registered ships confiscated and license to fly officially revoked in-game. But that won't mean you can't play the game or fly. There should be a fleshed out black market from which you can, for a hefty price, get yourself an "unregistered" ship. Maybe one or two neutral factions that won't report you if you use their services, but going to their installations carries a risk of being caught. Perhaps a reputation system which will allow for an entire off-grid existence. Maybe your private hab is nestled under an outcropping of rocks in a mountain valley. You have to use the black market, your connections and risky jobs to get to the point you can build a landing pad and have services available to you since you can't visit stations. Perhaps you could use a 3rd party to acquire necessities form player trading systems, sort of like the WoW auction house but via a contact cause you'll be flagged if you use it yourself. However, if you do get caught, you face dire consequences. Like, some serious prison time that really sucks. Perhaps there could be a hard to get/expensive, but limited use based on time revival pod for your hab, so if you die in combat or whatever, you won't always just be auto fucked to prison. But all that takes considerable effort.
Basically, they could build out this game to really cater to every kind of player. Obviously murder hobos and pirating need to be controlled so everyone can at least have a chance at doing their thing without constantly getting wrecked. But that's where severe consequences and a fully fleshed out "life for the criminal" system comes into play. If, say, a pirate were to risk losing considerable work themselves, then they'd be less likely to go out and just start shooting. If killing another player was punished much more severely than robbing them, it would be less likely to have pirates out and about just killing other players for fun, sort of like how they do now. Maybe they'd just leave alone low-value targets most the time. Maybe then only the few hardcore murder hobo pirates would be the ones dedicated to it and willing to face the consequences. They wouldn't be that numerous because if there were a lot of them active, they'd end up spending a lot of their time in jail so it would reduce the number active in systems.
Kind of just a stream of thoughts there... The game could be soooooo good if they manage to actually flesh out all these different aspects of it and offer something for literally any kind of player. The only kind of player that should have a really, really hard time IMO are griefers. If you want to be a murderous pirate, it should still kind of suck, but also offer unique gameplay experiences that make the game seem like a real world.
As with most things in life, I think it's a question of getting the incentive structures right. Piracy is an intended part of the game, and it promises high rewards. However, things that promise high rewards should also promise high risk. The current systems in the game do not make those risks high enough, especially for the kinds of human vultures who pick only on beginner players in ships that are no match for theirs, and who do it simply because they are bullies who can. Having come across the streams of such bullies, it is very often the case that there is NO in game objective being pursued apart from causing other players misery. It is the minority of attackers who are actually stopping to collect cargo or weapons. The AI turrets and defensive systems at surface outposts should have some serious teeth, such that the un-attended ships of players allied with the controlling faction should be quite safe from attack there from lone murder hobos just looking to cause chaos and misery.
At that point, if you want those high rewards, bring friends and mount a proper assault, one that has a reasonable chance of YOU dying too.
Hence why i stopped trying to do anything in pyro. Game is buggy and glitchy and wastes your time as it is, i dont need other players to waste my time on top of this too. Killing some Player character for fun is cool in CoD or bf but not in sc.
All for tightening down on this sort of stuff in ways that maintain a vibrant and open universe for all types of players, even the scumbags. Just as long as there is adequate enough NPC response and UX communication that allow players who want a reasonable amount of non-conflict gameplay can find that. I'll have no sympathy for players who can't just kill random people landing or taking off from stations but I'm not particularly onboard with separating PVP and non-PVP players in different servers. I think finding the right solution that adds to the RP of the game and provides players with ways to experience the universe MOSTLY the way they want to will make Star Citizen a MUCH better experience. Anyway, lotsa good ideas 👍 I have faith in CIG for 1.0
What is needed is the reputation system that impact players long term. Having lawful factions starting to dislike you when you blatantly murder people in their jurisdiction can have some effect. Roleplaying Hannibal Lecter would then mean that most landing areas and cities and stations start blocking your access for each of your alts that starts to become assholes.
And that would apply to Pyro as well, Pyro lack UEE laws...but i bet that Pyro has "laws" between the different factions that actually rule the system, usually a bullet to the head...
There needs to be a place for the players that don't want to deal with the pewpew posse. A good example is Eve. I mostly live in nullsec (lawless area), but when I am just on for a short time or want some casual low focus time killing, I mine in highsec (a lawful behavior area). The option needs to be there. If either side thinks the other does not have the right to enjoy the game they each paid to play (and play their way), then they are the problem. CIG will sort it out or they won't. The selfishness of both sides of this conversation is a tad disappointing, and makes me remember why I hit F12 as soon as I log on.
It’s because there is to little to do for the old players .. the missions and world is empty .. this increases the number of people turning to this
I think what they need to do is just shift people like this to an ironman system. Once they die from either a bounty hunter or NPC then it is a permanent death losing all ships/money etc.
Why i didn't go into multi-player area of division. Always had groups of people with good weapons you get there. And i was always playing alone.
For me, they become part of gameplay in Pyro. Do not be caught by them. If they catch you - it’s you who can be caught) and if you wanna fight - you know how to find a battle)
Also all of this can make piracy more unpleasant, and it should be counted, measured, etc)
But I admit that killing should have some reason. Piracy has reason - profit. Murderer’s reasons are “ha-ha I got ya, I can kill ya” and that’s all.
CIG could replace Klescher prison with forced psychotherapy talk sessions over VOIP for people who PvP'd.
I think that paying off fines should be very expensive, and once your bounty gets high enough, send AI and player bounty hunters after them. Player bounty hunters will obviously be rare, but AI bounty hunters could be just constantly attacking, every 5 mins. This way it just becomes annoying being a prick all of the time.
The answer is not in game mechanics / punishments, its also not bans or IRL punishments. The answer is balls up and learn to either get good enough to defend yourself or learn how to run away and QT out. The problem isn't murder hobos, its lack of player accountability and skill. 100%
when CIG adds more tedium like fighting fires and more as well as add armor and resistances where smaller guns have no effect on bigger ships the murder hobo issue will be over because the murder hobos will get bored and find another twitch game. leaving the game for people that like PVP and SIMs
It would be nice if the police in the game were like police in the world and didn't immediately open fire on a ship with a bad guy in it because there were other people on that ship.
Can you imagine IF CIG kerbed murder hobo behaviour by disabling their shields and weapons near sensitive places?
There are levels of Skill in disciplines of Star Citizen and levels of combat that should be equalized between them. So that you did good or you did bad stems from gameplay than an individual standing.
the only real consequence that would stop a dedicated murder hobo/troll, would be a perma ban and no way to ever get a second account. limit accounts to one and force ppl to register their account with RL ID-Card and biometrics, face id must be checked permanently while playing so you cant cheat the system. thats the only way to stop these idiots, everything else is just restricting everyone else. the trolls have nothing to lose, they just get a new burner account.
They need to give us a way to get our gear back. That would make being killed by a murder hobo not as bad. 13yrs in and we STILL dont have a way to recover gear is f'ing bs.
If they absolutely refuse to give us an option to do that, and are hard stuck on making us go recover our gear off our body, then they need to make the game spawn us in the NEAREST hospital automatically and not our home base. Which is quite literally how it works irl. If i love in new york but get injured on a trip to florida, the ambulance isnt going to transport me to new york for treatment. Thats stupid.
And i understsn they have this "clone/regen" mechanic but that could still be a thing, while making it easier on players.
Once/if the economy ever becomes player controlled you can blacklist them so eventually they cant ever do anything. Like. Oh. So and so is online. Guns up. Etc. kinda like eve onlines standing setting where u can just perma red someone to always show up hostile on your radar
What about a player based justice department. Where you could sign up for a police academy, spend like half an hour going threw mini games that pertain to civil rules. Then you are granted the status of system police. Given a loaner police ship and sent out to patrol. You have access to a police net that sends out reports of wrongdoers. And to protect against police brutality a report system against the police would be emplamented.
Also you must be required to log in and patrol once a week or you loose your police status and loaner ship.
A problem that surely no one saw coming.
I love the game: but the RDM MurHo’s are the worst part. We all know pyro is lawless and pirates are a thing: but historically pirates were people out to make money, not murder people for the joy of it. Everything in pyro has a RDM aspect to it with no downside for the offenders.
I did kinda enjoy when the prison in Stanton had the instant elevator death bug, trapping all the pirates in there for a couple days.
Too many jail sentences should give you a felony that takes your weapons and has you scanned more often to make sure you're not concealing any
Elite Dangerous has the same problem... what I do is get payback.... you can get torpedo'd unloading cargo in safe area's, best way to deal with them is note the name and add them to your KOS list.
I like to think of this topic taking me back to my career and in GTA Online on my Xbox 360 *before* I discovered Star Citizen. I still enjoy today how that online (nonMMO) game brings some life to life and immersion traffic from the NPC’s actions in the game. changing servers because of random agro players can some times be an unwelcome nuisance. switching to a join another 100 players or private servers gets boring. Thing I love about watching videos from creators like Mongrel Squad, Goodish Gamer, CobraTV and my favorite *Citizen Kate (and Will)* on sharing there journey on telling a story of how a well prepared player or group(s) publish a story that ended with an unexpected surprise that ended up being either informative, educational, entertaining and D: “All of the above”
Great in depth look at how to improve the system! Appreciate the analysis.
I think a real solution should be making Stanton more dangerous for criminals. I'm talking AI bounty hunters constantly coming for criminals within UEE space. (Planatary orbit) not being able to use City ports for landing or being arrested/killed at security stations. And of course higher player bounty payout. Pyro should feel like a PVP server hop. It should be filled with murder hobos. Its where you go to make a fortune in the face of peril. But stanton should absolutely be dangerous for criminals.
Star citizens do not have a murder hobo or PvP problem. It has no content and nothing working problem
This is a much bigger problem than cig is willing to admit
no its not lol
I advocated for a balanced system for well over a decade but honestly those days are gone. This company and community is nothing like what it once was and what remains is honestly horrifying on multiple levels. Would rather burn down the glax then conform to this culture...
Its not greifing or murder hoboing. Its war against the world.
This is always excellent to see, CIG knows these anal retentives will play to their strengths, CIG needs to the data to bring about a nice REBALANCE. Ive 4 accounnts so dont care, and whe i do, i'll group up. In fact we're already seeing security factions/groups policing Pyro to newter these cowards. Luv it
I think that if you keep destroying ships then ur insurance will make ur times longer and make you pay to claim
The idea that CIG "could" do these things is in direct contradiction to what they have proven.
They can't do these things. Adjustable fees for unwanted murder hobos? Nah, CIG can't program that. Otherwise Bounty Hunting 2.0 would be a thing and not collecting dust in some back office drawer being ignored.
Prison? Again, nope, the prison system if not completely bugged to failure is a joke. Slaughter a server, go to jail log off come back and rinse repeat tomorrow. Did I mention it's been a broken bugged out mess where the mechanics don't work to the point even the merit system is useless and players often get locked in a spawn closet?
Fines? The economy system in SC is broken beyond repair. NPC hostility? NPC functionally are glitched range targets. Or aim bots that target friendly no crime stat players one tapping them through walls.
What CIG is capable of doing and what could be done are miles apart.
This is the human element. I welcome it in games. Npcs are predictable. People are not.
They will try fix it but if CIGs history is at all telling, they'll find a way to make it worse.