Should You Throw Like Gerd Kanter or Kristjan Ceh?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ม.ค. 2024
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Love the videos I hope you make more also I started to make my own TH-cam channel with throwing
Great coverage. The best tutorial part for beginners? Ceh's hard block shown in the stills that would otherwise be missed at full speed. Coach, have you done a film analysis of Imrich Bugar? It might "startle" young throwers to know how much of a throw's distance is achieved up to and including the block as shown by some of the great non-reversers. Not that others aren't able to tack on additional distance reversing but it highlights the block well showing non-reversers.
Block? That's a word that should be dropped from the coach's lexicon imv . . The front leg shouldn't perform any conscious blocking function. Instead it is a moving support that drives and rotates upwards as the thrower's weight and momentum drives up and over it, at which moment it loses contact with the ground in most cases. And the left (in these examples) arm, when thrown round, opens the chest and generates/maintains rotational momentum. The only blocking, if any, that should occur is done by the discus or shot up to and at the point of release when the optimum amount of energy is transferred into the implement and thereby helps keep the thrower from fouling the front . . ie it should ideally block his/her forward momentum . .In no other respect does the word blocking apply to the throwing action. . Beyond all that, nothing should be allowed to interrupt/block the flow of the whole process. . . . I'm not aware of Dane Miller using the word "block" in the sense you appear to imply . . I might be wrong but I wonder if he's less than enthusiastic about the concept, and he's not alone if that's the case. I don't recall coming across any coaches who used the idea back in the 70s, or for some time afterwards. I've watched numerous top level throwers and have very rarely seen any application of blocking in their work. The sooner it's abandoned and the actual flowing process more intricately understood and described the better . . imv . .
@@ochjim You make some good points and I think what you describe is the "block" as it might appear in a full reverser release. But, there are many examples of the text book block by such notables as Lars Riedel and Imrich Bugar. Here's Bugar's non-reverse style and block. th-cam.com/video/uPC0F6_br2k/w-d-xo.html
@@bradreid6057 - Hi . . Thanks for getting back to me so civilly and for linking that example . . . However, I look at that non reverse throwing technique and I don't see a block of any kind. I interpret it quite differently. What I see is a thrower establishing a solid base to throw from, to pull against - something more solid, with more traction because the feet stay on the ground longer - though the act of throwing is still a flowing process with no blocking factor that's worthy of the word imv. . - as an alternative to a full reverse. . .. It might all come down to semantics of course . .I might be misunderstanding exactly what is being meant by blocking, but I have to admit that the use of the word by coaches and the thought of any kind of blocking being pushed on young throwers makes me nauseous! Those who are pro blocking should maybe describe what they mean in detail and justify the use of a term that seems to go against all the principles of effective throwing to my mind . . and to tell the truth I've never really heard a description of blocking that in itself made any sense to me. My understanding of what they're getting at is like something based on a conception of throwing that sees us as similar to a robot like machine that in the final phase of throwing plants the front foot and the left side (for right handed throwers) becomes a pillar round which the right side is forced to rotate by the act of stopping the left side (leg plant and sudden left arm pull back. On a robot like machine I can understand the logic of it, though I'm not persuaded that it would necessarily be the most efficient technique, but with the human body which has much more flexibility (and a variety of strengths and weaknesses) and biomechanics that can't be reduced simply to a robot like structure and action, I can't see how that kind of blocking idea can compete with the idea of a flowing process that goes up and over the left leg and is aided by the opening of the chest and rotational pull of the arm. Arthur Rowe to my mind is a fine example of a very efficient thrower (about 16 stone in weight in the linked clip from 1961) without any kind of blocking involved in his technique that I can see - th-cam.com/video/Wv1RCBpwdVY/w-d-xo.html . . Nor do I recall from his book (Champion In Revolt) any reference to the idea - and he was coached by Geoffrey Dyson. Sorry to go on at length, but though I try to see what the blockers are getting at, I find it really difficult to believe that it has any merit, and I don't see it as more than a theoretical notion that doesn't translate into effective action - especially with spinners (shot) and in full reverse throws in the discus. But, as I said I might not be grasping it clearly and the word blocking doesn't square in my mind with the flowing process that all of the various throwing techniques should entail, and I can't imagine how any form or degree of blocking applied to any part of the flowing motion/process of the ideal throw could be advantageous in terms of distance achieved. The opposite of blocking, ie total avoidance of or reduction of any kind of blocking makes more sense to me . . . Again, thanks.
@@ochjim Right . . . mainly semantics for sure. Maybe another word would be more descriptive. For other examples of what I and others mean by blocking, take a look at great javelin throwers since they have a run-up to their releases. Of course, part of the reason they stop abruptly is to keep from fouling a throw but even if a throw were measured without a foul line, they'd make that same abrupt "stop." One can also see it in MLB pitchers throwing off mounds and outfielders making long throws to home plate where they run a few steps but then lock down. Another example might be that a QB flushed out of the pocket and running laterally can't throw as far "on the run" as he can if he stops and plants his feet. There's that bullwhip acceleration effect (the hand holding the whip stops forward progress). One other area comes to mind and I haven't seen it lately but there have been several elite female rotational shot putters who throw non-reverse. I think this is owing to the fact that they "generally" have larger and stronger hips relative to other throwing assets. They seem to gain from fixed foot throwing by emphasizing the corkscrew effect from the strong hips. I suppose this is how I see it. If there is an adage that fits here it is "you can't shoot a cannon from a canoe." I'd still like to see Bugar and Riedel reviewed for more discussion of what is going on at the critical time of release. Good stuff!!! Thanks!
@@bradreid6057 Yes - good afternoon - you're getting down to the nitty-gritty now, with some of these examples, but blocking, as I understand it, isn't an active part of the processes involved in any of them - clearly I'm a very stubborn old guy!! . . The stopping and establishing a base to throw from doesn't necessarily include an act of blocking in the way that many throwing coaches teach it or believe is required for optimum throwing. I've had it said to me after putting, that I don't block . . Absolutely true. There was no conscious part of my action that involved blocking, whether I was gliding, rotating or back-stepping (a much under-appreciated throwing technique by the way imv - Anna Avdeyeva was a fine exponent; Ashton Eaton wasn't!). I'd be interested to hear if any pitchers, javelin throwers etc incorporate a deliberate blocking movement that goes beyond the very quick process of executing the final action from that momentary base position that most throwers pass through, almost automatically, if the preceding phases/flow of the throw are optimal, into the reverse. In the case of non-reverse throwers the first question has to be: are they getting the maximum distance out of what they have by not reversing? And if they are, is that because they still have some evolving to do as throwers before the reverse become necessary for maximum distance? Is their "back leg drive and hip-through action inadequate to propel them into the reverse? Every thrower is different, of course, and for some non reverse throwing might suit their particular strengths and weaknesses. The other cases which you've raised of javelin throwers and pitchers and how you focus on the crucial elements are interesting and reminded me of catapults and bows. Crudely speaking the pulling back of the string of the bow or the "tongue" of the catapult is done against a fixed structure, which plays a very important part in delivering distance. That fixed structure is maybe akin to a "blocked" position. However, if you've used those fine weapons, you might have been tempted, in order to get more distance to push the bow or catapult forward too . . Is it really a block then? That probably approaches what I had in mind in relation to the left leg (RHT) not blocking but aiding in the lifting up, over and round of the rest of the body at the final stage of the throw. It's about pushing the body as far forward as possible to launch the arrow or stone, with the equal and opposite force imparted by the shot or discus etc blocking the thrower's forward momentum and helping keep him or her legal. And that equal and opposite reaction force (thanks Newton) issue is why the canoe makes a poor structure to launch a cannonball from, though if you had a solidly enough built canoe and accelerated it sufficiently it would probably do the job! In addition to catapults and bows, and pitchers and javelin throwers, there's the example of the car that strikes a solid object, comes to a sudden halt and fires the unsecured passenger through windscreen. That's a serious block, and the kind of example that may clarify something in someone's head -the perils of not wearing a seatbelt - but it's a simple mechanical necessity relating to momentum that teaches us nothing about the value - or irrelevance - of intentional blocking in a flowing movement designed to generate maximum transference of the energy that culminates in a human hand into a metal object in a limited circle or run-up. What may be defined by some coaches as "blocking" aspects of throws are, or should be, natural to the action in my judgement, and shouldn't require conscious focus - unless those natural movements are actually blocking the throw in some way and need to be consciously minimised, refined or removed. . . We've burrowed fairly deeply into this and I'm not sure we can get any further or that one of us will persuade the other to cross the divide . . However, it's been a pleasure exchanging views with you, over this obscure issue, Brad Reid . . There will be typos!
Any tips on how to thrust the right foot forward while releasing? I can’t seem to get my foot more than a couple inches in front of me
what are you talking about?
@@user-rt9fj8nd2q I don’t know what it’s called but when I’m about to release the discus I can’t get my foot around to follow through
agreed i can’t seem to figure it out either
He's talking about the reverse I suspect . . . @BrookeHuff - if you're right handed and you're right foot/leg doesn't come through naturally then you're probably not driving your hips through effectively. If your hips come through as far as they should then your right leg will too . . . Once you're effectively on top of the basics and are able to generate an adequate amount of power then reversing becomes almost automatic and necessary to keep you from fouling, unless you consciously use a non-reverse technique . ..
Kanter!!!!
Sir ihave big doubt
Please reply me