An update | videos, exposure, therapy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- So yeah, the audio balance is off for the first half of the video and there's a bit of noise during the second half. I'll keep my mitts off the mic next time :) If it's terribly unlistenable, let me know and I might try to rebalance & reupload it later.
#avoidantpersonalitydisorder #avpd
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Hi Jake. I have AvPD as well. Before I learned of the disorder, I chastised myself for failing at life, having no real friends, no career and no significant savings with which to buy a home. Simply understanding the causes of my AvPD and knowing that there are other people like myself out there helps me very much. Thank you for sharing your story. I am glad to hear that you are feeling motivated to get help. I am making progress and feeling like I can take charge of my life. I wish the same for you.
Thanks man, I'm glad I could help a bit :)
" Don't remember where I was when I realized life was a game...the more seriously I took things , the harder the rules became." I've really liked your voice in the videos, and I like this background; it's more cheerful! Just yesterday I headed outside and there were neighbors visiting in the street and I turned around and went back inside. I get it. You are moving along doing things that will get you more comfortable with interactions. Keep pushing yourself out that door. It takes a lot of effort and patience with yourself. Baby steps. Right med will help wonders. Happy to hear you're gonna give it a go! Cheers!
Thank you! I don't feel like a natural fit with more cheerful backgrounds, but I figured I could manage it for a ten minute video :) And that is a fantastic song reference.
You're doing great by just making these videos. You're unbelievably brave and dont fret too much about the robotic-ness; I know the mountain you've had to climb just to start putting out stuff on TH-cam. My AVPD doesn't let me even post a story on Instagram, but someday I hope I can do something like you too
Thank you :) I hope you are able to share sometime as well. I wanted to do it for years before I actually did, and I'm still not really comfortable with it now, so I get it.
Hi Jake. Great to hear you're taking some steps in the challenging direction of facing your fears. Yeah, updates are a good way to keep yourself going in your progress. I live in a big anonymous city, so it's easier for me to take walks. Still, in my immediate neighborhood I tend to avoid any interaction by checking to see who is outside when I first leave so they don't eyeball me when I come out of the house.
I like the advice you gave in one of your videos when you said that doing things that are well beyond our comfort zone isn't good and can easily backfire on us. That's so true! I think it's important to remember that as we face our social fears. Sometimes just the fact that we stay in a social situation for X amount of time is good progress for us. Once we start to feel comfortable, maybe after several times doing that, we can go onto something else that challenges us. But it's an individual thing. We can only go at our own speed. I think you/we (us AvPD's) can accomplish a lot on our own without too much pushing from others if we stay motivated. You have my support in what you are doing. I am seeing some progress in my own life, and that's encouraging. Seeing videos by others with this disorder who are trying to improve their quality of life is encouraging to me. I'm glad you appreciate people watching and commenting on your videos. It's a two-way street in the sense of it being mutually beneficial. That's a good thing. We support each others goals.
I'm a 55 y.o. dude with self-diagnosed AvPD, just to let you know.
Well, good luck in what you are doing. I'll be looking forward to your next video.
Thanks, man.
Hey Jake. What I find interesting is some of the differences between what you are dealing with and what I go through. One of the things I am discovering since I reached what is called "retired" is that working did force me to be involved with people. Now I have nothing that is forcing me to deal with people. That is comfortable for us, no one to have to deal with. What I am finding is that AVPD grows stronger the less contact I have with people. I am realizing that I have to find ways to actively fight AVPD. As soon as I relax and get comfortable, it gets stronger. I have to walk the dog. I have started making a real effort to talk to the people I pass. For what ever reason, I find that I can do that. Where AVPD really hits me is with things like emails, messages, etc., things that I am going to have to access in some way and I do not know what is in them. Like you I have not found any therapist that knows anything about AVPD. I have also looked for any ongoing research without any luck.
When I look back, I can see the beginning patterns of AVPD as far back as I can remember but no details. There is circumstantial evidence for child abuse around 6 or 7 as a possible cause, but that is just a guess. All the TH-cam "experts" talk about specific fear categories such as fear of rejection, fear of ... which I think demonstrates their complete lack of understanding of what we go through. My personal thinking is that AVPD is rooted in our most basic emotion systems. It seems to me that emotions developed long, LONG before language. Jordan Peterson (no specific recommendation) talks about an experiment using lobsters to test the effects of anti-depressants because anti-depressants work on the serotonin system which has been part of our biology for half a billion years or so. I think the first and most basic 'emotion' would have been fear simply because not being eaten would have been the first major challenge for an organism to survive. For me, the 'fear' is this black, non-thinking, emotional force that is not aware of the intelligent 'me' and cannot be reached. All 'it' knows is it is terrified of something. When I was your age and involved with people, my problems were with phone calls and groups of more than 2 or 3. Since I was retired and stop dealing with people, I am becoming aware that it was generalizing into a fear of anything that I do not know what it contains.
By the way, these responses to your videos are me thinking out loud in response to things you say. Something that just occurred to me is that (I think) I remember discussions of PTSD (which I also deal with and is just as remorseless as AVPD) and the problems with treatment because they think PTSD resides in the amygdala and limbic system. Because of all the veterans returning from Vietnam (I am 71 after all), Iraq, and Afganistan who are dealing with PTSD, there must be more research on treatment. I am going to explore treatment for PTSD as possible treatment for AVPD.
One hope I want to give you is that all the "experts" talk about is our inability to have a close relationship with someone. Bullshit. I met my wife through on-line dating when on-line dating was a personal add in a newspaper. She was a 'force of nature' and she got inside my "wall". By accident we learned to give each other what the other needed and it was wonderful. I was reaching out using the adds because finding a partner and having a relationship was more important to me than the fear of a relationship from AVPD. So it is possible but you have to make the effort.
If you want a laugh, I am a computer expert in manufacturing an applications programming but I have not figured out how to respond to you and your videos by email instead of comments.
Do not quit, do not give in to AVPD, get angry and fight back.
David
Hey David, I had the same experience as far as stopping work. I took a package from my work of 20 years instead of being forced to relocate, a few years ago. I spent a couple years 'retired', thinking that it would be the dream I always wanted. No work stress!! Well having less stress was super nice, but I did sink much deeper into AvPD, to the point where I really struggled to be outside or around anyone but my girlfriend or direct family, and would even shake going into grocery stores, where before all this I had reached a point where I gave it almost no thought. I started to think, maybe I just need to be away from all people, then my girlfriend didn't like where this was going, and ended our romantic relationship, and that was the kick I needed. I went back to work, about a year and a half ago, but the fear was so overwhelming I really hoped they wouldn't hire me back and didn't put a ton of effort into the interviews. They hired me back though, and the first 6 months or so were brutal, but now it's like nothing because I get up every morning and spend two hours at the gym immersed in a bunch of weightlifting dudes, and that kicks up my anxiety so much, that going to work seems like nothing afterwards.
Anyways, like you said, once you reach a certain point with this thing you can't let it slide backwards. Keep going towards what you fear, not away from it! Now I just have to figure out what is the next step I need to take, still a long way to go.
Ron, thanks for responding. This was actually what I was hoping for, a conversation. I would like to go back to work but I have never gotten a job from a job interview. All my jobs came after working as an outside consultant or contractor. My next step is to try a different type of therapy. I am fed up with how the AVPD can control my emotions. I want some way to fight back. I was looking at some research on therapy for PTSD (which is also an issue for me). It struck me that AVPD and PTSD may be versions of the same thing. There is a recent therapy called EMDR that has documented success. I started looking for a therapist this morning. This is only the 2nd time I have commented on a video so I am not really sure of what can be done in comments. My eml is dmyers1920 at gmail.@@ronaldanderson4995
as someone who is learning about this disorder and feeling like I'm living with it; thank you for posting and making videos, I really appreciate a regular human perspective and anything that informs me more about this disorder. It helps. sincerely, I love you.
Thanks man, glad I can help a bit.
i have no diagnosis... but your the first individual that helped me understand what im going thru... i assume i have the same issue but that dont matter... its nice that you share your progress and to see how it makes you better.. that makes me a happier person.. much love brother!!! ihope to share more and i hope you do to...
Thanks man! I'm glad I could help a bit. I'll try to keep it up, and I'd love to hear more about your experiences as well if/when you feel up to it.
@@JakeAvPD I will! You do the same
From personal experience I can say that it does get better with time. Although the same anxiety remains but now it has reduced in the effect. Being regular at something greatly helps, like going to gym or having a job. It will be devastating initially, I remember I couldn't speak a word and look anyone in the eyes... It also helps to actively try to put your focus away from you, by looking at what others are doing making mental notes, keeping yourself busy in small games... Like count how many lights are there in this building, or how many red cars pass through the road out of all the cars, or see how everyone greets each other maybe memorise what they do and what they say.
Thank you :)
Oof, the walk story resonates so well. I've been trying to walk every day for the past few weeks, at least around the block, just to get SOMETHING in and try to feel remotely productive. Not sure it's doing much, but I'll keep forcing myself to do it, as long as I can. But, hell, I get anxious af when I see someone walking towards me. The entire time, up until they pass, I am worrying about having to say hi or some unimportant bullshit. Of course, if they just ignore me, like I would do if they don't engage first, I wonder what I did wrong 🙄 The worst is when someone is walking the same direction as me though. At least with the passerby, they are gone and I feel a little better, but when someone is walking behind me, for example, I get a freaking knot in my gut. I'll cross the damn street to avoid having to pass someone walking too slowly in front of me. It's such a stupid thing. Just walk by ffs; say hi or say nothing, and keep going. Oh no. Can't do that. Gotta go out of my way to look even stupider and more anti-social...
Oh yeah, if someone going the same direction, I'm about to 180 and pretend I left the stove on or some shit. Unless it's very obvious that their sudden presence is why I'm turning around, in which case I sweat and play with my phone until there's some side street to develop a sudden interest in. 🙃
In this day & age, it's hard to believe therapy offices can be unresponsive-such a common experience it seems. Good to hear you kept at it & lowered your expectations to test it out again! I felt the same way about looking for any kind of specialist in my area.
I don't know 99% of the people in my neighborhood, yet I've felt nervous encountering folks. To me it's worth heading to local trails at forests or wildlife preserves to get fresh air & solitude. And I prefer to walk around sundown or nighttime when the air gets cooler & there are fewer people out.
Take care!
Thank you! Yeah, I know literally no one in my neighborhood, but it doesn't make it any (much?) easier. Night is definitely easier, I just decided I'd make myself try going out when other people are around, at least this one time.
OK, I have seen enough to convince myself that AVPD is really PTSD. I am going to look for someone trained in EMDR therapy and give that a try. David
I wish you luck with that. If you find someone, I'd be interested in hearing about how it goes. By the way, as per your other comment, TH-cam actually removed the private message feature a few years ago, so to contact someone without commenting you have to use the email address on the "About" section of their channel. I don't have one listed at the moment, so it doesn't show up.
I will let you know how it goes
I'm glad to hear that you're making progress, you look happier than in your previous videos. Keep going!
Thanks! To be honest, I was focusing hard on practicing the cheery demeanor, not just with my voice, but reminding myself to make facial expressions other than "exasperatedly raise eyebrows and purse lips". It's a lot easier with a shorter video and more casual subject matter. The music actually seemed to help quite a bit. Hopefully it comes more naturally in the future.
Jake, I just started watching a Ted Talk on PTSD. I am beginning to think that AVPD is a form of PTSD and could be treated with the same methods (have not got to those yet). Go look for yourself. David
Your tone actually changed I guess the music helped
It's hard for me to watch other AvPDs talking about their life & issues it's too similar to mine & it brings back the traumas & open up the wounds am I the only one??
It really did seem to help. And yeah, I feel that way sometimes too, and have a hard time trying not to compare myself to someone else too much. But it's also nice to feel less alone, so it mostly depends on my mood. I hope things are going alright for you.
@@JakeAvPD much better now but still the awkward one in the group
Interesting that you mentioned about listening to music to try to help you with the anxiety to talk to us/the camera more naturally. I've noticed that I like to put my phones and listen to music whenever I am commuting to somewhere I need to go. I think it has to do with the feeling of disconnecting me a little bit from what's going on around me. Another thing I've noticed I tend to do and helps me a little bit is chewing gum, especially when I have to talk to someone. I know some people think it is rude, at least where I'm from, but it helps with the anxiety. Do you have other mechanisms like these that you use and helps you? Or have you noticed things you tend to do and might be related to coping with feeling anxious?
...another thing is having a bottle of water, or really anything to hold in my hands lol
@@henrique392 I do a few things like that, although they usually feel like a double-edged sword. I often wear a hoodie so fewer people can see me, but that also makes me feel more anxious because it blocks my peripheral vision. Music helps prevent auditory overload, but similar deal where not being able to hear in case someone does try to get my attention makes me more anxious (and the fact that they might hear, and would probably dislike, what music I'm listening to). Anything like gum makes things worse for me because of worrying they'll think it's rude/annoying, and it doesn't do anything for me personally in way of distraction. I'm never comfortable with what my hands are doing, but I usually end up thumb in, fingers out of pockets so my hands are visible to people but hanging out of the way (usually anxiously tapping my leg). I either stare directly downward or look all around so no one thinks I'm staring at them.
As far as unconscious coping mechanisms, I pace around, either in back and forth lines or a small circle, whenever I have to remain more or less in one place in public. I also unconsciously do "teeth drumming" (grinding teeth to a song's drum part in my head) literally all the time when I'm not actively engaged in something - would not recommend, my jaw hurts :)
I hadn't thought to listen to music to talk more naturally until now. I don't think it would help at all in an actual conversation because the distraction would make me more anxious, but it seemed to help a lot just to sound normal for a video, so I'm hoping that if I keep doing it, I'll just get in a habit of talking conversationally more often, instead of just when around people I know super well (even when talking to my friend I've known for ~16 years, it takes a few minutes before I get comfortable. Pretty much only act completely comfortable with my brother). That's probably a more comprehensive answer than you bargained for lol, I hope it's somewhat interesting.
@@JakeAvPD Hey, I don't mind about the comprehensive answer. It was actually a lot interesting to me! I've been watching videos related to AvPD, anxiety, etc...(probably, that's why your videos showed up in my recommended) and had the chance to chat with some people and it's been quite insightful to hear from everyone. I just realized I do the same "teeth drumming", maybe that's the same reason why the gum helps me a little bit somehow. As I mentioned, I am aware that some people don't like it (recently, even find out a girl who has a disgust, kind of a phobia, that she doesn't know how to explain exactly. Anyway...) but I think that in some way it soothes my anxious feelings, kind of making me a bit less constantly self conscious, so for me I feel that it worth the risk of being seen as rude/unpolite... but I try to be aware about not chewing agressively 😂 Also, I've noticed that chewing gum somehow helps me keep focused in the conversation, when I'm talking to someone. I've had some episodes in which I was so anxious when talking to somebody that I just said anything for the sake of not being in silence and the gum helps me, maybe, with the thinking process....I don't know if it makes sense.
I had a phase with the hoodie also, I remember specifically around the time I had preparation classes for university submission in an auditorium type of room packed with people, I think at the time I wasn't even aware of how anxious I was, eventually I moved to the last row, lol
I've been learning more about my behaviors, personality traits and correlated things, and how it might have affected to bring me to this point of my life, just the last few recent years and still. I think before I used to approach the issues related to it just by forcing myself against it, which in some extent worked a little bit and for some time.
All these videos like yours, gives good insights for me at least!
It helps me to get a better sense of myself, I guess, and can maybe move on with that in mind. Let's see! Hoping for the best!
p.s.: please don't mind any eventual english mistakes. It's not my first language.
@@henrique392 That makes sense, if your mouth is already busy with the gum you might take a bit longer to answer. I'm glad I could help a bit, best of luck! And don't worry, your English is fine.
When I walk, I wear sunglasses and a baseball cap and listen to music, which really helps me feel less exposed.
Also, do you hate it when people take a long time to respond to you? It feels like rejection to me and then I feel embarrassed for asking.
You look a bit more upbeat here :) hope you're okay.
I'm so weird about music. I always expect that someone is going to try to get my attention (even though that never happens) and it's gonna take me half an hour to turn it off, and if that doesn't happen, then someone else passing will hear what I'm listening to and give me a look (or make me think they're considering it). So I would just turn it on and off repeatedly.
For sure, that feels like I said something so dumb they are so confused/annoyed they have no idea how to respond. I counter this by almost never being the first one to say anything in any situation :)
Thanks, I'm alright, and I hope you are too. I was really focused on trying to look and sound conversational for this one, so I'm glad it seems to have worked :)
Did you ever watch Curtis Kessler's video called, "how i cured my avoidant personality disorder"? I've had tremendous luck with his technique. Also, pardon me if I sound too "out there" but it kind of sounds like you're having a bit of a nondual awakening when you talked about how you often have laughter fits about how pointless everything is. I know that's totally out in left field, and traditional therapy might be a necessary part of your path, but for me I needed a freaking wizard to help me. Kidding on the wizard part, but what I meant was someone who not only had extra-sensory abilities, but who had also risen in consciousness enough to have refined perception. I know some excellent energy healers if you ever want to give that route a try.
It's great that his idea helps you! I have seen it, and unfortunately it's not the thing for me - my mind insists on being more logical than philosophical, and fear is certainly as real an emotion for me as anything else (rather than a lack of love, as he puts it), which is meant to defend me from scenarios that will make me feel uncomfortable or endangered. I am very aware of my fears, and have spent much time considering them logically, and realizing they are illogical (which is quite similar to what he's suggesting in practice), and yet they persist. Similarly, I view the laughing fits and such more as a nervous breakdown from feeling trapped in a logical loop, where the things I want are the same things I'm avoiding, and the only possible way to ever get comfortable enough to stop avoiding such things is, paradoxically, to just stop avoiding such things.
@@JakeAvPD Okay, that's awesome that you've seen it. Yeah, the "lack of love" part wasn't actionable for me either, but the part you mentioned about ceasing to avoid things that cause fear... you can do that part in your mind (to an extent). What I got from Curtis's video was a way to embrace the fear when it gets triggered. Kind of like when you're on a roller coaster, and instead of tightening up when you're about to go over a steep drop, you just surrender to it and throw your hands up and pretend you're intentionally free-falling. You can use logic to remind yourself that your safe, because you know the bars will keep you safe. A certain amount of trust is required when your facilitating the movement of fear through your nervous system, but that's basically how the technique works. When a polar bear gets tranquilized in the wild, it will shake violently when it wakes up. This is to get rid of the excess energy caused by adrenaline. Humans don't get the opportunity to do that every time it's necessary, and that energy gets trapped, and we call it trauma. I hope that helps!
Sorry, I was sweating in my car and was hoping I had said enough for you to connect the dots between my ideas. Basically, if you happen to watch his video again, skip over the parts that don't serve you, and look for the other parts that might be actionable. Experiencing the facilitation of trapped fear (trauma) in your nervous system, leaves you feeling lighter and more in tune with your natural instincts that were previously blocked by unresolved fear.
Oh my gosh, one more thing, and I'm so sorry for sounding like a know-it-all, but I just wanted to say that the danger of exposure therapy, whether it's in your mind, or in your life, is that you're at risk of re-traumatizing yourself. An example would be trying to make eye contact with a stranger, and you end up doing it in a creepy way because you're afraid, and the person looks at you like you're a freak, and that triggers the shame wound, which affirms your belief that it's not safe. The odds of you ever being successful at that are not in your favor. But if you address the fear that causes you to not be able to make eye contact with people, you might notice one day that you're making eye contact with people without thinking about it, and it's going well. You probably can't just imagine making eye contact with people in your mind, and make enough of a dent in your trauma to experience a change in your behavior. But there probably are moments when you experience a fear, or shame attack, when you are alone. That's the exposure therapy I'm talking about. If you can meet it then (handle bars), you might notice that you naturally want to do more stuff that was previously impossible for you.
@@Jewellene I get what you're saying. I'll keep it in mind, and give it a shot if an opportunity presents itself :)
Have you tried watching Personal Development School on here?
Can't say I have. Doesn't seem particularly applicable to my issues on first glance. I'm not sure their videos about "avoidant attachment style" are why you suggest that channel, but I feel like I should clarify that that is different from avoidant personality disorder.