I am all for balance, but I seriously don´t see a balance issue here, as you would buff only your heavy weapon and nothing else. You are "sacrificing" you exo armor for 1 bow.
@@KurtKn1sp3l it would double the damage of Levi Breath, which is already a high damage weapon, Oathkeepers would make it the undisputed choice for any raid/dungeon, leading to the LFG kicking issue if people don't have Levi w catalyst.
Because the damage would probably be too insane. Leviathan's already tears through health bars with basically the damage output of some of the best rockets and the ammo capacity of a Linear Fusion, and the extra hold time wouldn't be as big of a factor considering it's already slow to fire even with the catalyst. With Oathkeepers essentially doubling the damage without needing extra shots, a lot of bosses would be getting shredded, and champions would be a joke even on the hardest content AND it could still be used in tandem with a legendary bow to double up the Oathkeeper's buffs for general play. Also what Squishydude above me said: the meta would be entirely tilted to the point that it becames the exclusively best option, and LFGs have a long history of vetting players only if they're using the literal best stuff.
My favorite weapon in the game. I haven't been using it much recently but for a while it was all I needed. Tag a couple people and then make the entire room explode
The base exotic perk of oathkeepers is constantly useful in the pvp context. I love using it with any bow. I like waiting behind walls and sneaking around corners with the bow drawn for as long as I want, hoping someone else peeks or floats around, without me ever having to worry about my aim getting shaky. I crutch on the perk pretty hard. I worry if I would even still be able to use bows if I didn't have oathkeepers, because I've gotten so used to it.
The fact you need to lower your rate of fire to increase per shot damage means this isn't really that big of a damage buff and it's more a utility thing that helps you stay closer to optimal DPS in situations where you gotta pop behind cover for couple extra seconds to regen health or something.
Or if you're a pvp player you can be behind cover with a fully drawn arrow give you the time you need to get your shot off before and actual gun at any time
There is no reason not to buff leviathans breath other than that it stretches your ammo. If you are trying to dps a target you want to fire with perfect draw literally every shot because if you land your crits, the over all damage output would be higher than waiting 3 seconds between shots. The over all dps should be lower but your ammo will last longer.
You don't have to wait 4 seconds and get the max stack, you could just get up to tier 1, which is still a pretty big damage increase, and that doesnt take long to reach.
Tf? I had a stroke trying to read this Im assuming what you mean is: when trying to damage a target for burst DPS it's better to not use the buff since that'll tank your DPS; but with said buff, it makes your total damage much more so it's only good when trying to be conservative / efficient with ammo
This exotic really helps out legendary bows especially in high end content where it takes two-three shots to kill a red bar. Having to always rely on archers tempo as a bow staple sucks.
I wish "precision" weapons like bows and scouts and snipers had extra crit damage against red bars. Feel like it'd make them feel way better in higher end content and reward players for hitting their shots more consistently.
Never expected Oathkeepers to buff any damage outside of the actual bow itself, so it's not really that disappointing (until you get to Leviathan's Breath not even getting that). Would be nice, but not the end of the world. But hey, now we know what the preferred exotic bow is to use with Oathkeepers, and some interesting data to go along with it. Great work!
Bungie: "We felt Oathkeepers wasn't hitting our envisioned fantasy" Also Bungie: All the bows you WANT to use with this exotic do not work well with it
@@SelecaoOfMidas I mean, I want this perk to work like all other damage perks, i.e. effecting ALL instances of damage produced by the weapon and to effect all weapons that it SAYS it would. It doesn't say "all bows except Levi's Breath", it doesn't say "Only Arrow Damage", it says, "Gain a bonus to the Bow's Damage based on how long you hold the charge for". The Bow's Damage includes all effects it has that count for a kill with the weapon in my books. If, in the kill feed, the Weapon's Icon would show up in The Crucible, it's the Weapon's Damage.
@@papertowels9162 so what you can gather from that is, you should be using it with a legendary bow, that you can have a damage perk on, which will allow you to stack damage
I'd like to say that Oathkeepers does offer an alternative playstyle with Trinity Ghoul. You can continue using the regular gameplay loop of not fully drawing the bow to deal with adds, but when you come across a beefier enemy that isn't a boss I think that's when Adamantine Brace will come in handy. Now Trinity Ghoul is able to do damage on par with legendary special weapons like slug shotguns and aggressive sniper rifles to deal with the higher hp enemies.
@@user-ux4gu2lh8c It does not unfortunately, but the lightning damage is enough to take out most red bars. You start getting into Legend or higher, you may need two lightning chains to take out a group of red bars.
That’s also why I like it with verglas. The ice crystals are already good enough, and with this perk the regular shots hit much harder, allowing you to either chunk a tougher enemy safely, or get the first kill more easily to get the perk going.
Levaithans has to be changed to work with oathkeepers, having to substantially lower your ROF for the additional damage makes it perfectly fair. You loose pretty much the best DPS value of the catalyst and the levaithan is far from OP as it is.
@@urazz7739 the thing is when you account for things that don't already get one showed or two showed by leviathan, aka bosses in raids, and you account for dps phases length I don't think it would be more op than existing meta with rockets especially with the new GotD rocket launcher. But they could lower the damage you get per level to be lower than others I think thay would be fine and give you a choice to single big hit yellow bars and minibusses or just use archers tempo for raid boss, which I would guess would still most likely chunk more DPS at the end thay waiting for a level 5 perfect draw
Of all the Bows imo Verglas Curve is probably the best. While it may not work with the Stasis Crystals I believe you forgot to touch on the damage using Whisper of Rending. If you triple stack Surges the bow fully charged does 652% bonus damage from base. Since you can freeze from hipfire its pretty nice for big burst damage on beefier targets since without kills you wont be able to get the freeze shots in volume to make up for the time used to charge it. More importantly it has strong synergy with Duskfields as between shots you can charge the bow while you wait for them to Freeze. If you are good with timing you can even get the bonus freeze damage between freezes on the stasis super. Its nothing crazy but its the best synergy this bow has since you are also creating cover which also works well with the overall gameplay loop. The damage on Red Bars is also hilariousy overkill with the additional 40% buff.
I was so keen to try out oathkeepers especially with leviathan's breath it's a shame most of the exotics have absolutely no synergy. Hoping that future updates make this thing nuts.
They should make hiereachy of needs' circle bigger and make it so that it blocks enemy damage in pve (or gives you like 75% damage reduction) Either that or make the extra projectiles apply to anything shot through it including teammates' weapons (with damage depending on the fire rate of the weapon used)
this and make so you dont need to fire at distance literally all enemies always rush at you just make so firing through a ring gives a flat damage increase the damage it gives on max distance isnt even that impressive especially now look at malfeasance, also make it work with oathkeeper theres no reason for it not work
Yeah I've been doing testing on all the bows myself... Rending is the largest possible damage bonus for any of the bows. Like 213.75% if I remember from my testing. Ticuus hits the hardest but Vergy applies the freeze itself. Which lasts long enough for you to fully draw the arrow. Best gameplay loop by far.
@@cerigittins6178 I have no clue what kind of damage test you're doing; you're just straight up incorrect. I just tested it and Verglas doesn't even come close to the total amount of damage Wishender does, let alone the precision damage itself. I have a video for proof I can upload as well. Double check if you have surge mods, stasis subclass equipped when you had verglas on, both weapons are the same light level (I did mine with both at 1810), and you're actually charging both to the max. Here were my damage numbers on Carl: VERGLAS - 29,204 WISHENDER - 33,256 Precision, 14,065x2 piercing. Edit: Just to be clear, I even show in my video as well that I have no surge mods on, both weapons are 1810, clearly shows highest tier of Oathkeeper, and I put on the arc subclass so that neither weapon benefits from any subclass damage buff or aspect buff.
@@cerigittins6178 "got nothing to do with what’s on paper, tried it in practical use, comparing the single damage hit with both bows with the full draw perk on oath’s, without any surge mods to boost kinetic or stasis weapons,..." I thought we were doing an actual damage test, not a "lemme buff the fuck outta this one damage type and do nothing to the other, then claim it's god tier and shits all over the other" test. Edit: Just finished my testing of both, I put on 3 surge mods for stasis and the stasis subclass with rending and tried Verglas, then did the stasis subclass with rending with 3 surge mods for kinetic and tried Wishender. Here are my results, which still show Wishender coming out completely on top - VERGLAS - 76,156 Precision, 11,392 Shatter. WISHENDER - 60,706 Precision, 25,675x2 Piercing, 11,392 Shatter.
I think the big issue here is that all the exotic bows add some kind of auxiliary damage effect or alternate mechanic that is just not buffed by oathkeepers. Oathkeepers are DPS neutral on legendary bows with draw times above 600 (as far as I'm aware) and without perks like explosive head or archer's tempo (some of the top go-to DPS perks). The addition of these "on-hit" procs (lemon poison, wishender's broadhead, explosive head) tip it from DPS neutral to a hefty DPS loss, since the extra procs only care about volume of shots. I think the buff needs to be stronger or affect all bow damage, not just the initial arrow hit. As they stand now they're a crutch for new bow users or those with really, really bad connection. Even in PvP you don't want to indefinitely hold a shot all the while waddling like your pants fell around your ankles. When you learn the reload stall trick to edge your perfect draw Oathkeepers become wholly unnecessary in the Crucible.
Reload canceling is broken, least for me it is. Unless I get a perfect release on my Reload the arrow shoots and even then after one or two draws it stops working
@@frostyato8066 i usually run a bow with an smg, it just works for me, I'm a cqc player but don't mind mid range, always annoyed me but realized since I'm already using a full auto gun I could turn it off
Gonna say it again, Hierarchy of Needs is not a Hunter's bow it's for Warlocks. The entire purpose behind the exotic is that you don't want to leave your rings so you want to build into a playstyle that lets you camp with your ring and dish out your damage infinitely. This means the best pairs for the bow are Boots of the Assembler (extending rifts and giving ranged support to allies), Phoenix Protocol (get Well back faster so you can camp longer), and by far the best pairing Sanguine Alchemy (free damage boost and infinite rift duration with kills). Sanguine lets you run scavs instead of surge mods on your legs to refill your heavy ammo and since Hierarchy is an exotic primary built for sustained ad clear you get heavy ammo drops twice as often as legendary primaries with ammo finders. It's so weird hearing Cross trash on Hierarchy so much when its incredibly effective once you actually build into it, the raw damage from using the bow alone will regen your Well before its even run out. It's goddamn cracked.
Cross isn't a diehard bow player and doesn't understand ins and outs of bows at a fundamental level, so watching this is incredibly painful especially when he tries to trash Hierarchy for absolutely no reason because he fails to take into account how to use it lmao. He's also trying to make an exotic that's never been good into something good when it never will be... Especially when you could just fire the arrows one after another instead of trying to make use out of its frankly USELESS exotic perk, I'd rather run anything else than Oathkeepers.
Counterpoint with the same logic: Titans as well, between Citan's Shoot Through Barricades, Bastion Barricades, Hoarfrost-Z's Crystal Barricades, Rally Barricades as a whole, and Sunspots (especially with Phoenix Cradles which makes Sol Invictus 10 second not 5) we're pretty good at posting up and saying "This is my spot now".
Ticcu’s with oath keepers will be nuts against red bars in endgame content, you don’t even necessarily need to reach tier 4 with them to shred adds back to back, plus the timing isn’t all that important
Can we just take a moment to appreciate destinys bow animations? Ysah, not all of them are perfect, but, I'm genuinely impressed that they took the time to make a large number of these bows move and bend as youd expect from real life bows. There's quite a few satisfying bow animations here. Le monarque for example has a REALLY crisp and visually pleasing compound bow animation. You can see the frame bend, and the uhh, ?wheels? spin, making the draw actually have this feeling of tension and the visual illusion that the gaurdian actually has to put some effort into pulling the string back!
Yes! Bungie did bows incredibly well and they feel so much better then any other game I’ve played with them asides from Horizon Zero Dawn. Though for all the lightweight recurve bows it does slightly annoy me that the metal bends because that just doesn’t make sense, but they nailed the feeling of greater and greater tension before the systems kicks in and lowers the draw on the compound bows. Le Monarque definitely feels the best imo
Fun fact: Unsure if this is bug or an intended feature, and I haven't tested it this season yet, but if you whip out Hierarchy of Needs in the Helm, you can occasionally hear a bit of warmind garble. It seems to only work if you do it near where you'd go to see the exo frame last season
Hierarchy of Needs has always done that, actually, and can be heard everywhere in the game! Lore wise, it isn't actually the Warmind saying the noise but instead Sotaria the Augur Mind since it is her code that escaped the Aries Spire into the bow.
The issue with the damage buff is that it basically just comes out to giving you the arrows you could have been shooting the whole time you are charging the buff. If it worked on the inverse, having a strong bonus then decaying to only giving normal Perfect Draw damage then it would be fantastic, but as it stands you will almost never actually take advantage of the damage bonus if you are playing properly.
What about for Legendary Bows? It would of course be difficult to test every legendary bow but I am curious if Oathkeepers would buff the dmg from explosive payload? If there might be value in using a legendary bow with Oathkeepers.
I was interested in the Oathkeeper/Verglas synergy and managed to consistently get a 63049 shot at carl without any buffs except for Whisper of Rending. Maybe recent updates buffed this interaction a bit
All that really matters is if the increased damage for holding a draw offsets or outpaces the damage of using the bow normally. I noticed that, as expected, you didn't even consider this aspect. Thankfully, with the numbers provided, these calculations can be easily made without you.
I knew it was unlikely, but I was hoping it works really good Hierarchy. Hierarchy is one of my fav exotics just cuz it looks so insane and stupidly big (and also it dropped for me when I had covid, the game pitied me lol) Super fun to use, and I still love it. Bungo plz buff Hierarchy. Give the seeking projectiles scorch or something.
I agree. Hierarchy is one of my favorite exotics from the look to the lore and the gameplay. I've used it in every GM for the past 2 seasons since it just shreds champions with the arrow volleys. Adding scorch would be nice for some solar 3.0 synergy, but I would much rather have it that the seeker volleys don't have a limit on the distance they can travel. 80 meters and they just dissappear.
aka exotic still suck this is like if acrius or horseman didnt work with no back up plans but as always bungie is scared to make literally anything good on hunter which is why titans get an exotic that works for everything and hunters get the same exotic but weaker and with extra steps just look at the new glaive exotic, gyrfalcon last year was THE ONLY GOOD hunter exotic something that give hunters a way to compete with how easy titan and warlock is, now we are still on the same predicament triton vice being the main example of this oh boy gotta love a small explosion that forces me to use a matching class while nerfed synthos do more melee damage regardless plus melee damage lingers
one note about Ticuus is that the explosion damage ramps up along with the causality arrows, as long as you hit the crit. It's not gonna break the bank, but its DPS is on pace with Heirarchy's max damage, only being eeked out by Heirarchy in DPS due to not needing to shoot twice to proc the damage.
I personally prefer ticcu's. You always have some kind of buff. Just because it is hard tp get both going it is nice to have at least 1 and sometimes two. Give it surge mods and siphon mod. Then stack radiant. And you have 4 sources of buffs at all times.
This is the issue with bows (and DPS in general, I guess): in basically every circumstance, you’re encouraged by sheer numbers to just be fast. That’s what every DPS meta ever was; as big a number as quickly as possible. There’s no patience or waiting involved, none at least that make the speed worth substituting. For this to be worth it, the damage would have to be SIGNIFICANTLY higher on the back end of the buff or else it would have to apply to the secondary damage in addition to the arrow’s impact. As it stands, Oathkeepers has made a completely lateral move that doesn’t really make it any more worth your time than before.
As someone that quite enjoys using a Bow, it's one of those weapons I don't use regularly but when I slap one on? It takes a while to swap off! Other than Verglas Curve & using Revenant (Without Oathekeepers) it seems like the buff is FAR more beneficial to Legendary Bows... Which is where the issue comes in. Exotic Bows are the ones with all the crazy damage dealing buffs that don't benefit from Oathkeepers pretty much at all! Also, aside from Leviathans Breath none of them are really designed to be used for DPS against really beefy targets! Some definitely have uses against champions but that's really as far as Bows go when it comes to actual DPS. It's almost as if Bungie wanted it that way =O
Earnestly I think Verglas is a strong contender. It's easy to freeze enemies in PvE and the bow can do it fairly easily on its own. Being able to ramp up to unbuffed Wish Ender levels of damage on frozen headshots while still having the option to use crystals for crowd control and ad clear on the same weapon is pretty versatile.
I love how he keeps saying Hierarchy of Needs is trash, but if you play with its perk, you'll see that Hierarchy was made for a warlock using Mantle of Battle Harmony.
I think some legendary bows should be a consideration. Point of the Stag is one anyone can grab - it has No Distractions and Vorpal (20% bonus since it’s a primary), should do pretty well.
Verglas Curve is actually insane with oath keepers. I recommend taking a second look at it with stasis fragments involved, in particular whisper of fissures and whisper of rending. Don't shoot the stasis crystal itself but instead the frozen target. It's some pretty big burst damage off of a primary and if you freeze multiple targets with something like a cold snap grenade it can chain react (the shatter damage not the bow damage).
If the bonus damage would just stay at lvl 4 and not vanish with time, I think it would be better, and have true sinergy with the main perk of the exotic.
That is quite literally the opposite of what they wanted with this change. The entire point of adding the damage bonus was to encourage people to be more active and not passively sit back holding shots indefinitely.
Yes, I know, but that is against the very exotic as well. They are saying: look, you can keep the perfect charge forever, but don't. At least that's how I feel.
Verglas, Oathkeepers is not great on their own but add whisper of rending and you deal pretty significant damage vs frozen enemies. Makes for a fun loop of using Stasis-arrows + Duskfield grenades to explode smaller enemies, freeze majors and then kapow them. Not saying it's particularly good tho. I really hope Oathkeepers gets another slight buff as in increasing exotic weapon perk damage or increasing the damage buff to something like 200%-250%. It's really fun to stack up damage and one shot majors with it. Just wish it actually increased dps or synergized better for some fun playstyles.
It straight up butchers your dps, and synergizes with *zero* exotic bows while not working at all with Leviathan. This 'buff' is not just worthless, it actively hurts your bow's performance. I sincerely hope it's bugged or it gets adjusted, because right now the 'bow exotic' hurting you for using a bow is just depressing. It needs either a bigger damage increase so it justifies holding an arrow for a whole 3 seconds or the damage needs to charge up way, WAY faster. Right now it's completely useless.
Seems to me like Le Monarch is a good one with Oath Keepers because you can hold indefinitely and still get the poison shot... because you can't get the poison effect unless you release immediately after full draw otherwise.
The damage buff isn’t something you should be trying to go for on every shot, think of it as free bonus damage when you aren’t instantly firing your bow. Something that’ll happen a lot, especially in more difficult content that you take at a slower pace like GM’s. You can hold your bow shot, take a couple seconds to aim and/or find a target, and then shoot while still getting the perfect draw bonus and a nice extra chunk of damage. Plus it also gives you a free extra draw time master work and better accuracy in the air. Personally I actually really like it with verglas. In difficult content it really helps with getting your first kill to get the bow going.
an interesting change would be if oathkeepers stalled your LEGENDARY BOW'S perk cooldowns while adamantide brace is active and charging. aka archers tempo, successful warmup, rampage, all perks with a time limit. cause there isnt a reason to use a legendary bow with this.
The only times I can see Oathkeepers being worth it are for Wishender specific builds or if they ever patch it to affect Leviathan's Breath. For every other bow it's just not worth it because class and exotic synergy is just better without it. Verglas just run a stasis build with whatever the best stasis exotic armor is that season. Monarque just run a void build with whatever the best void exotic armor is that season like Gyrfalcon's. Hierarchy and Ticuu's just run a solar build with whatever the best solar exotic armor is that season such as Ahamkara's nade spam. Trin Ghoul just run a normal arc punch build with assassin's or liar's. Cause of the catalyst your melee and nade kills will proc lightning rod which you can then just hipfire with no charge at all to the bow to clear nearby ads, or charge for further away ads. The damage buff to the initial arrow hit seems great on paper, but it's just not worth it. You do significantly more damage just by releasing a normal perfect draw arrow than you do holding the shot for 5 seconds for the buff before releasing. Even in Cross' previous video about Oathkeepers and Wishender. His dps check between non-Oathkeepers perfect draws and Oathkeepers perfect draws x5 he still did significantly more damage just spamming normal perfect draw shots. He was able to fire 8 arrows with normal perfect draws for 331k total damage. And full charging Oathkeepers was able to shoot 3 arrows in the same time frame for a total of 184k damage. The ONLY real benefit I can see to Oathkeepers in this situation is that it does SLIGHTLY increase draw speed so if Oathkeepers were used in both tests I just stated, Cross might've been able to shoot 9 arrows with normal perfect draws vs 3 arrows with full buff draws. If Oathkeepers was actually going to be worth it it would need at least one or multiple of the following in addition to what it already does: 1) A significant increase to draw speed, kind of like an intrinsic archer's tempo, or just a flat draw speed buff. 2) Buffs bows perk damage. If it buffed Monarque's poison, Hierachy's guidance ring, Trin Ghouls lightning rod, or explosive head perks on normal bows, those would all be worth it. 3) 100% hipfire and airborne accuracy. 4) The timer either needs to be longer or not have a cap. The initial perk of Oathkeeper's is being able to hold a perfect draw indefinitely. The 2nd perk is a damage buff when perfectly drawn. The problem is that they counteract. "Yea you can hold the shot indefinitely, but you're not gonna get a damage buff if you take longer than 6 seconds to shoot." Make it so it ramps up the longer it's held, but also so that it doesn't go away when max buffed. If a combination, or all of these changes get put through then I could see the benefit of using it over a subclass specific exotic armor piece. But sadly these changes will never happen because while it would make it more viable in PvE, it would make it busted in PvP, and unfortunately instead of balancing 2 separate game modes it's all balanced for 1 game mode. I want Oathkeepers to be worth it, and I tested a lot myself to try to find a viable build but it just always came up short. The damage buff just isn't worth it.
Oathkeepers is a flop. Just like the glaive exotic. For any of these other bows, I would rather use exotics that take advantage of subclass keywords. Monarch? gfalcons. Ticus? Kban hand. Or just star eaters for blade barrage damage. Trinity ghoul? Might as well run it on arc with assassins cowl. V glass bow? You’re probably on stasis. Take your pick on the stasis exotics.
"So this bow doesnt get buffed, but wait there are plenty more bows"....15 minutes later...... "jup turns out all bows are crap with oathkeeper, but thx for watching" XD
Seems like they just don't help any bows gameplay loop. I feel like the power buff should go the opposite direction, like start at tier 4 and quickly fall off. That would make it help literally any bow (that applies the buff) and encourage more skill with loosing perfect draws, but not penalizing for missing them.
As much as i think having Oathkeepers buff secondary effects of bows, do you realize just how busted that would be? The nerfs it would cause? Im just happy bows have an exotic that gives them a buff purely to arrow damage, any other buff would cause chaos in PvP and probably to an extent PvE
This honestly feels... Very bad. Heck, it feels like a bug at this point. The whole point of this exotic armor peice is to synergize with a weapon to give it more damage. And let's be honest, if you are using a bow, or rather HAVE to use a bow, you are more than likely going to use an exotic, especially if it has intrinsic anti-champion built in. To me, the wait time for the damage increase is just bad design, considering the dps loss that you have for waiting, the damage increase from Oathkeepers should be like a flat 20% at all times, affecting everything, and be done with it. No setuo, no waiting, just a flat buff. Yes it's lower but my guess is that Bungie didn't want to give them a big bump like this because they'd be afraid the meta would change just to rock these as they risk being too "spikey" in damage, scaling to unreasonable numbers. But as it is, it's just not usable and the perfect draw thing is really just useful for Le Monarque, that's it.
This is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps me away from the game. What is the point of having an exotic armor piece that buffs bow damage if it doesn't synergize with ANY of the bows? It's honestly so frustrating watching this, even though I haven't played the game since before Lightfall. I want Destiny to be a good game, but it's stuff like this that just ruins the potential of this game and this will never be fixed by the devs.
So it has no synergy to anything but Legendaries, that's what I'm hearing? I guess I'm happy I never got a good one. What's the point if I can't use it with Trinity Ghoul, La Monarque or Leviathan's Breath. The only exotic bows I have. I sharded Tikuu's very quickly. And Verglas isn't my thing.
I might have gotten a built idea. Oathkeepers on Revenant using Raconteur and Salvation's Grip. All you're really doing with this build is making a crap ton of Stasis crystals and Shatterdiving, using them to fuel a energy weapon that has Collective Action. Course I just made this off the top of my head so this build isn't exactly perfect and definitely needs lots of work.
i'd say rework oath keeps to increase the max range of bows, 10-20% anti flinch and a few more frames of handling or draw speed what ever it already does. Bows are really good in PVE but PVP they can't really compete. they are beat by hand cannons, the few auto rifles you'd use, and pulses
So you made a 20min to convey that only the arrow gets buffed by oath keepers? Next time just do a post about miniscule stuff like that instead please. I was sitting here for 20 mins waiting on you to actually talk about how oath keepers is useful or what you can do with it. You could have just said "It only buffs the arrow thats why its shit with all the other exotic bows" in the wishender vid... You didn't have to make a 20min video for oath keepers to convey this minimal amout of information. I am just disappointed.
Bungie said in the TWAB, where the changes to Qathkeepers where listed, that Leviathans Breath would not benefit from the buff that Oathkeepers give. So sadly this is intended from bungie not to work.
Well monarque already got nerf on poison dmg só it shouldn't BE to buffed... But i can tell u monarque is hitting even harder on pvp with oath ! OK poison nerf was from 4 to 3 dmg but the buff dmg of oath with poison buff dmg mods well i can tell u im dropping ppl with 1 shot or almost sometimes ! 👍
I feel like they need to just cut the damage bonus by a sizable amount but make it fully activated the moment you hit perfect draw. Keep the infinite hold time, but give you a, I don't know... 30% increase in damage for a shot fired within one second of hitting full draw? That way its just a buff for bows that encourage you to perfect draw while still keeping its infinite draw time utility. Either that or make the meter grant you half the damage bonus right away but still take the same amount of time to reach the maximum bonus. Also just give it the Lucky Pants/Eriana's treatment and make the bonus damage work for Leviathan's but at a greatly reduced increase. And in case any of that sounds like a problem for PvP, they've proven that they can balance things seperately between the game modes, the damage can be either totally absent in PvP or the now standard minor boost that other exotic traits have.
Classic bungie. Titan exotic buffs this season make previously useless exotics god tier. Hunter exotic buffs this season make previously useless exotics useless in a new way. The cowardice to not give Leviathans breath ANY bonus with oathkeepers is hilarious and proof that they cant even keep track of their own game. Its an inconsistency that should be inexcusable. Bungue gets a straight up F grade from me for these exotic reworks this season. Hilariously bad for hunter.
As someone who was already using oathkeepers a couple seasons before this "buff" I honestly find it useless. In most situations, in the time it takes to hold for full damage I have enough time to fully draw and shoot another shot. So thats the same exact damage total, and if its something with a usable damage perk like monarque, you get that perk twice in taking two shots vs using and waiting on the "buff" damage perk. Bows already play slow with draw speed, now double that with holding for damage, its not worth it. However, it is still perfectly fine using oathkeepers to guarantee you get your bow perks off.
Always makes me kinda sad when something that sounds pretty cool comes out only to not have any of the interesting synergy you might hope for. Reminds me of glaives in that sense, where all the exceptions and non-synergies just make you wonder why they added glaives to the game in the first place if they're just going to live in their own little bubble. Of course, Oathkeepers still has some good use cases and I don't mean to say it's bad, just disappointing when so much of what makes D2 exciting is the buildcrafting and synergies.
Sad that out of the box Oathkeepers is bugged. I thought it would be OP! Found out first week when on hunter it wasn't so great. Sad about LB, too, and put a comment on Bungle's forum. No response.
Pretty sure ADS perfect draws without sacred flame refresh the timer without increasing the stacks. So once at 5 or 6 stacks of causality arrow you can just repeat ADS perfect draws without hip firing at all to keep the buff. You lose out on the explosion damage but maybe the oathkeeper buff is enough to make up for it?
'bungie has not said anything about this' 17:23 Yes, they have - when they announced the buff for oathkeepers, they specifically said it would not work with Leviathans on purpose.
I been running crafted tyranny of heaven with dragonfly and incandescent, can still dump 50k arrows at fulk charge, exotic bows seem like a waste currently, hopefully this is unintentional
God this is disappointing. Especially with Leviathan. I don't know why they even bothered with this change if it's only purpose would be for like chunking away slowly at the Glassway boss
Hierarchy is the one that needed the extra damage. You have to set it up which sucks. Then finally you can do some decent damage. It would have been amazing if oathkeepers buffed the seeking arrows but noooooo bungie doesn’t like fun things.
Yeah after thinking about it would LB actually benefit from the buff? Bc of the catalyst giving it archer tempo basically wouldn’t that counteract the holding of the shot on LB
Arsenic Bite with explosive and or dragonfly or rampage is hard to beat in both PvP and PVE on any class oathkeepers have finally been nerfed thank you bungie
I'm colorblind, play on colorblind setting and nothing helps for the wishender look through walls, so i haven't used it even tho i'm a massive bow user. this isn't brought up a lot i feel like. just colorblind issues
I really wish the buff applied to Leviathans, even partially.
I mean, I get why, balance reason, but part of me wants to see that power...
I am all for balance, but I seriously don´t see a balance issue here, as you would buff only your heavy weapon and nothing else. You are "sacrificing" you exo armor for 1 bow.
@@KurtKn1sp3l it would double the damage of Levi Breath, which is already a high damage weapon, Oathkeepers would make it the undisputed choice for any raid/dungeon, leading to the LFG kicking issue if people don't have Levi w catalyst.
Because the damage would probably be too insane. Leviathan's already tears through health bars with basically the damage output of some of the best rockets and the ammo capacity of a Linear Fusion, and the extra hold time wouldn't be as big of a factor considering it's already slow to fire even with the catalyst.
With Oathkeepers essentially doubling the damage without needing extra shots, a lot of bosses would be getting shredded, and champions would be a joke even on the hardest content
AND it could still be used in tandem with a legendary bow to double up the Oathkeeper's buffs for general play.
Also what Squishydude above me said: the meta would be entirely tilted to the point that it becames the exclusively best option, and LFGs have a long history of vetting players only if they're using the literal best stuff.
@@KurtKn1sp3l Doubling the damage of one of the highest damaging heavy weapons isn't much of a "sacrifice" at all.
@@AshenHawk96 but by the time you wait for the buff someone already shot like 3 arrows
Here to represent Ticuu's gang :)
LET'S GOOOOO
for the love of god make it ignite please 🙏
TICUU'S RAAAAAAAAAAAH
You know it 🏹🔥🔥🔥
My favorite weapon in the game. I haven't been using it much recently but for a while it was all I needed. Tag a couple people and then make the entire room explode
So Oathkeepers is still extremely niche and just using a bow regularly is more efficient. Gotcha
The base exotic perk of oathkeepers is constantly useful in the pvp context. I love using it with any bow. I like waiting behind walls and sneaking around corners with the bow drawn for as long as I want, hoping someone else peeks or floats around, without me ever having to worry about my aim getting shaky. I crutch on the perk pretty hard. I worry if I would even still be able to use bows if I didn't have oathkeepers, because I've gotten so used to it.
@@Puck90a exactly the kind of people i bag in pvp lol
@@Puck90a oh yeah, I’m bagging you.
@@SilkyJohnson7 Don't worry. My bow will never be any match for your immortal spam. Your KD is safe, but bag if you must.
@@Puck90a i have like 5 kills with immortal. Try again
The fact you need to lower your rate of fire to increase per shot damage means this isn't really that big of a damage buff and it's more a utility thing that helps you stay closer to optimal DPS in situations where you gotta pop behind cover for couple extra seconds to regen health or something.
Or if you're a pvp player you can be behind cover with a fully drawn arrow give you the time you need to get your shot off before and actual gun at any time
@@jfelton3583 that has nothing to do with the buff.
@@RagnaRebellion umm the damage buff while allowing you to wait behind cover yeah that couldn't possibly help
@ViciousDredHed there is no damage buff for bows inside of pvp
@@jfelton3583 combatants is the key word here..
There is no reason not to buff leviathans breath other than that it stretches your ammo.
If you are trying to dps a target you want to fire with perfect draw literally every shot because if you land your crits, the over all damage output would be higher than waiting 3 seconds between shots. The over all dps should be lower but your ammo will last longer.
You don't have to wait 4 seconds and get the max stack, you could just get up to tier 1, which is still a pretty big damage increase, and that doesnt take long to reach.
Tf? I had a stroke trying to read this
Im assuming what you mean is: when trying to damage a target for burst DPS it's better to not use the buff since that'll tank your DPS; but with said buff, it makes your total damage much more so it's only good when trying to be conservative / efficient with ammo
This exotic really helps out legendary bows especially in high end content where it takes two-three shots to kill a red bar. Having to always rely on archers tempo as a bow staple sucks.
I wish "precision" weapons like bows and scouts and snipers had extra crit damage against red bars. Feel like it'd make them feel way better in higher end content and reward players for hitting their shots more consistently.
But even dragonfly and explosive head dont work
Point of the Stag is probably a solid pick. No Distractions + Vorpal (+20% since it’s a primary)
Yeah they really need to make archers tempo intrinsic at this point
Never expected Oathkeepers to buff any damage outside of the actual bow itself, so it's not really that disappointing (until you get to Leviathan's Breath not even getting that). Would be nice, but not the end of the world.
But hey, now we know what the preferred exotic bow is to use with Oathkeepers, and some interesting data to go along with it. Great work!
Bungie: "We felt Oathkeepers wasn't hitting our envisioned fantasy"
Also Bungie: All the bows you WANT to use with this exotic do not work well with it
@@papertowels9162 Define "well"
Sounds like y'all want exotic bows buffed instead, which is a different conversation that should be had.
@@SelecaoOfMidas Oathkeepers rewards you for waiting for the damage buff. All the exotic bows reward you for shooting fast.
@@SelecaoOfMidas I mean, I want this perk to work like all other damage perks, i.e. effecting ALL instances of damage produced by the weapon and to effect all weapons that it SAYS it would. It doesn't say "all bows except Levi's Breath", it doesn't say "Only Arrow Damage", it says, "Gain a bonus to the Bow's Damage based on how long you hold the charge for". The Bow's Damage includes all effects it has that count for a kill with the weapon in my books. If, in the kill feed, the Weapon's Icon would show up in The Crucible, it's the Weapon's Damage.
@@papertowels9162 so what you can gather from that is, you should be using it with a legendary bow, that you can have a damage perk on, which will allow you to stack damage
I'd like to say that Oathkeepers does offer an alternative playstyle with Trinity Ghoul. You can continue using the regular gameplay loop of not fully drawing the bow to deal with adds, but when you come across a beefier enemy that isn't a boss I think that's when Adamantine Brace will come in handy. Now Trinity Ghoul is able to do damage on par with legendary special weapons like slug shotguns and aggressive sniper rifles to deal with the higher hp enemies.
@@user-ux4gu2lh8c It does not unfortunately, but the lightning damage is enough to take out most red bars. You start getting into Legend or higher, you may need two lightning chains to take out a group of red bars.
That’s also why I like it with verglas. The ice crystals are already good enough, and with this perk the regular shots hit much harder, allowing you to either chunk a tougher enemy safely, or get the first kill more easily to get the perk going.
Levaithans has to be changed to work with oathkeepers, having to substantially lower your ROF for the additional damage makes it perfectly fair. You loose pretty much the best DPS value of the catalyst and the levaithan is far from OP as it is.
Leviathan breath is actually insanely strong as it is.
I definitely wouldn't call Levi OP, but it's pretty damn good where it's at. I'm more worried it'll get nerfed, honestly
If they do make Oathkeepers affect Leviathan's Breath, I imagine it'll be set to be at a much lower level, i.e. a 10% increase at the most.
@@urazz7739 the thing is when you account for things that don't already get one showed or two showed by leviathan, aka bosses in raids, and you account for dps phases length I don't think it would be more op than existing meta with rockets especially with the new GotD rocket launcher. But they could lower the damage you get per level to be lower than others I think thay would be fine and give you a choice to single big hit yellow bars and minibusses or just use archers tempo for raid boss, which I would guess would still most likely chunk more DPS at the end thay waiting for a level 5 perfect draw
Leviathans as it sits can literally one shot champions under the right circumstances. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it
Of all the Bows imo Verglas Curve is probably the best. While it may not work with the Stasis Crystals I believe you forgot to touch on the damage using Whisper of Rending. If you triple stack Surges the bow fully charged does 652% bonus damage from base. Since you can freeze from hipfire its pretty nice for big burst damage on beefier targets since without kills you wont be able to get the freeze shots in volume to make up for the time used to charge it.
More importantly it has strong synergy with Duskfields as between shots you can charge the bow while you wait for them to Freeze.
If you are good with timing you can even get the bonus freeze damage between freezes on the stasis super.
Its nothing crazy but its the best synergy this bow has since you are also creating cover which also works well with the overall gameplay loop. The damage on Red Bars is also hilariousy overkill with the additional 40% buff.
I was so keen to try out oathkeepers especially with leviathan's breath it's a shame most of the exotics have absolutely no synergy. Hoping that future updates make this thing nuts.
Levi is stromg enough on its own.
Oath keepers with le monarque one taps most the time pvp. 2 void loaders... 1 perfect draw, one quick draw, it's guardian down
@@kisukeurahara189
LM never oneshots in PVP without a damage buff and Oathkeeper's damage increase doesn't work in PVP.
@@VAVORiALDude must be playing in momentum
@@VAVORiAL Like every other bow in this list. I love LB even before it got buffed, but Oathkeepers should work with LB too.
They should make hiereachy of needs' circle bigger and make it so that it blocks enemy damage in pve (or gives you like 75% damage reduction)
Either that or make the extra projectiles apply to anything shot through it including teammates' weapons (with damage depending on the fire rate of the weapon used)
this and make so you dont need to fire at distance literally all enemies always rush at you just make so firing through a ring gives a flat damage increase the damage it gives on max distance isnt even that impressive especially now look at malfeasance, also make it work with oathkeeper theres no reason for it not work
Verglas stasis has like the aspect to increase primary damage
By 43%
Yeah I've been doing testing on all the bows myself... Rending is the largest possible damage bonus for any of the bows.
Like 213.75% if I remember from my testing.
Ticuus hits the hardest but Vergy applies the freeze itself. Which lasts long enough for you to fully draw the arrow. Best gameplay loop by far.
@@cerigittins6178 I have no clue what kind of damage test you're doing; you're just straight up incorrect. I just tested it and Verglas doesn't even come close to the total amount of damage Wishender does, let alone the precision damage itself. I have a video for proof I can upload as well.
Double check if you have surge mods, stasis subclass equipped when you had verglas on, both weapons are the same light level (I did mine with both at 1810), and you're actually charging both to the max.
Here were my damage numbers on Carl:
VERGLAS - 29,204
WISHENDER - 33,256 Precision, 14,065x2 piercing.
Edit: Just to be clear, I even show in my video as well that I have no surge mods on, both weapons are 1810, clearly shows highest tier of Oathkeeper, and I put on the arc subclass so that neither weapon benefits from any subclass damage buff or aspect buff.
@@cerigittins6178 "got nothing to do with what’s on paper, tried it in practical use, comparing the single damage hit with both bows with the full draw perk on oath’s, without any surge mods to boost kinetic or stasis weapons,..."
I thought we were doing an actual damage test, not a "lemme buff the fuck outta this one damage type and do nothing to the other, then claim it's god tier and shits all over the other" test.
Edit: Just finished my testing of both, I put on 3 surge mods for stasis and the stasis subclass with rending and tried Verglas, then did the stasis subclass with rending with 3 surge mods for kinetic and tried Wishender. Here are my results, which still show Wishender coming out completely on top -
VERGLAS - 76,156 Precision, 11,392 Shatter.
WISHENDER - 60,706 Precision, 25,675x2 Piercing, 11,392 Shatter.
I think the big issue here is that all the exotic bows add some kind of auxiliary damage effect or alternate mechanic that is just not buffed by oathkeepers. Oathkeepers are DPS neutral on legendary bows with draw times above 600 (as far as I'm aware) and without perks like explosive head or archer's tempo (some of the top go-to DPS perks). The addition of these "on-hit" procs (lemon poison, wishender's broadhead, explosive head) tip it from DPS neutral to a hefty DPS loss, since the extra procs only care about volume of shots. I think the buff needs to be stronger or affect all bow damage, not just the initial arrow hit.
As they stand now they're a crutch for new bow users or those with really, really bad connection. Even in PvP you don't want to indefinitely hold a shot all the while waddling like your pants fell around your ankles. When you learn the reload stall trick to edge your perfect draw Oathkeepers become wholly unnecessary in the Crucible.
Reload canceling is broken, least for me it is. Unless I get a perfect release on my Reload the arrow shoots and even then after one or two draws it stops working
@@frostyato8066 full auto breaks it, take it off and try it again, only useful in pvp anyways
@@brycethewrecker9800 you fuckin with me? Holy shit thank you, I've been playing at 80% of my normal strength in pvp for MONTHS now.
@@frostyato8066 i usually run a bow with an smg, it just works for me, I'm a cqc player but don't mind mid range, always annoyed me but realized since I'm already using a full auto gun I could turn it off
@@brycethewrecker9800 baller, I run a steady hand wt quick draw but only really use it when I'm irritated.
Day 322 of commenting until Aztecross starts saying Ahamkara instead of Haamkara
Gonna say it again, Hierarchy of Needs is not a Hunter's bow it's for Warlocks. The entire purpose behind the exotic is that you don't want to leave your rings so you want to build into a playstyle that lets you camp with your ring and dish out your damage infinitely. This means the best pairs for the bow are Boots of the Assembler (extending rifts and giving ranged support to allies), Phoenix Protocol (get Well back faster so you can camp longer), and by far the best pairing Sanguine Alchemy (free damage boost and infinite rift duration with kills). Sanguine lets you run scavs instead of surge mods on your legs to refill your heavy ammo and since Hierarchy is an exotic primary built for sustained ad clear you get heavy ammo drops twice as often as legendary primaries with ammo finders.
It's so weird hearing Cross trash on Hierarchy so much when its incredibly effective once you actually build into it, the raw damage from using the bow alone will regen your Well before its even run out. It's goddamn cracked.
Cross isn't a diehard bow player and doesn't understand ins and outs of bows at a fundamental level, so watching this is incredibly painful especially when he tries to trash Hierarchy for absolutely no reason because he fails to take into account how to use it lmao. He's also trying to make an exotic that's never been good into something good when it never will be... Especially when you could just fire the arrows one after another instead of trying to make use out of its frankly USELESS exotic perk, I'd rather run anything else than Oathkeepers.
Counterpoint with the same logic: Titans as well, between Citan's Shoot Through Barricades, Bastion Barricades, Hoarfrost-Z's Crystal Barricades, Rally Barricades as a whole, and Sunspots (especially with Phoenix Cradles which makes Sol Invictus 10 second not 5) we're pretty good at posting up and saying "This is my spot now".
this is so disappointing.
Wishender is so good! Got me through the entire legendary campaign, only taking it off for witherhoard on Calus
Ticcu’s with oath keepers will be nuts against red bars in endgame content, you don’t even necessarily need to reach tier 4 with them to shred adds back to back, plus the timing isn’t all that important
Yeah but at that point use just trinity ghoul and use your exotic armor slot for something else
Can we just take a moment to appreciate destinys bow animations? Ysah, not all of them are perfect, but, I'm genuinely impressed that they took the time to make a large number of these bows move and bend as youd expect from real life bows.
There's quite a few satisfying bow animations here. Le monarque for example has a REALLY crisp and visually pleasing compound bow animation. You can see the frame bend, and the uhh, ?wheels? spin, making the draw actually have this feeling of tension and the visual illusion that the gaurdian actually has to put some effort into pulling the string back!
Yes! Bungie did bows incredibly well and they feel so much better then any other game I’ve played with them asides from Horizon Zero Dawn. Though for all the lightweight recurve bows it does slightly annoy me that the metal bends because that just doesn’t make sense, but they nailed the feeling of greater and greater tension before the systems kicks in and lowers the draw on the compound bows. Le Monarque definitely feels the best imo
Fun fact: Unsure if this is bug or an intended feature, and I haven't tested it this season yet, but if you whip out Hierarchy of Needs in the Helm, you can occasionally hear a bit of warmind garble. It seems to only work if you do it near where you'd go to see the exo frame last season
Hierarchy of Needs has always done that, actually, and can be heard everywhere in the game! Lore wise, it isn't actually the Warmind saying the noise but instead Sotaria the Augur Mind since it is her code that escaped the Aries Spire into the bow.
I’ve always loved the appearance of oathkeepers but always thought the perk wasn’t good enough to use it but if it’s been buffed then I’m all for it.
The issue with the damage buff is that it basically just comes out to giving you the arrows you could have been shooting the whole time you are charging the buff. If it worked on the inverse, having a strong bonus then decaying to only giving normal Perfect Draw damage then it would be fantastic, but as it stands you will almost never actually take advantage of the damage bonus if you are playing properly.
@@karadinx yea I see this as only truly viable in Uber endgame tier shit
It was always a PvP exotic for Bows with little to no reason to use it in PvE, which honestly still kinda seems to be the case.
What about for Legendary Bows? It would of course be difficult to test every legendary bow but I am curious if Oathkeepers would buff the dmg from explosive payload? If there might be value in using a legendary bow with Oathkeepers.
I was interested in the Oathkeeper/Verglas synergy and managed to consistently get a 63049 shot at carl without any buffs except for Whisper of Rending. Maybe recent updates buffed this interaction a bit
All that really matters is if the increased damage for holding a draw offsets or outpaces the damage of using the bow normally. I noticed that, as expected, you didn't even consider this aspect. Thankfully, with the numbers provided, these calculations can be easily made without you.
I knew it was unlikely, but I was hoping it works really good Hierarchy. Hierarchy is one of my fav exotics just cuz it looks so insane and stupidly big (and also it dropped for me when I had covid, the game pitied me lol)
Super fun to use, and I still love it. Bungo plz buff Hierarchy. Give the seeking projectiles scorch or something.
I agree. Hierarchy is one of my favorite exotics from the look to the lore and the gameplay. I've used it in every GM for the past 2 seasons since it just shreds champions with the arrow volleys. Adding scorch would be nice for some solar 3.0 synergy, but I would much rather have it that the seeker volleys don't have a limit on the distance they can travel. 80 meters and they just dissappear.
aka exotic still suck this is like if acrius or horseman didnt work with no back up plans but as always bungie is scared to make literally anything good on hunter which is why titans get an exotic that works for everything and hunters get the same exotic but weaker and with extra steps just look at the new glaive exotic, gyrfalcon last year was THE ONLY GOOD hunter exotic something that give hunters a way to compete with how easy titan and warlock is, now we are still on the same predicament triton vice being the main example of this oh boy gotta love a small explosion that forces me to use a matching class while nerfed synthos do more melee damage regardless plus melee damage lingers
one note about Ticuus is that the explosion damage ramps up along with the causality arrows, as long as you hit the crit. It's not gonna break the bank, but its DPS is on pace with Heirarchy's max damage, only being eeked out by Heirarchy in DPS due to not needing to shoot twice to proc the damage.
Did you know that Le Monarque is French, meaning: The Monarch
I personally prefer ticcu's. You always have some kind of buff. Just because it is hard tp get both going it is nice to have at least 1 and sometimes two. Give it surge mods and siphon mod. Then stack radiant. And you have 4 sources of buffs at all times.
Non lol, oathkeepers is kinda trash. You literally do more damage by firing quicker from every test ove seen so far
This is the issue with bows (and DPS in general, I guess): in basically every circumstance, you’re encouraged by sheer numbers to just be fast. That’s what every DPS meta ever was; as big a number as quickly as possible. There’s no patience or waiting involved, none at least that make the speed worth substituting. For this to be worth it, the damage would have to be SIGNIFICANTLY higher on the back end of the buff or else it would have to apply to the secondary damage in addition to the arrow’s impact. As it stands, Oathkeepers has made a completely lateral move that doesn’t really make it any more worth your time than before.
As someone that quite enjoys using a Bow, it's one of those weapons I don't use regularly but when I slap one on? It takes a while to swap off!
Other than Verglas Curve & using Revenant (Without Oathekeepers) it seems like the buff is FAR more beneficial to Legendary Bows...
Which is where the issue comes in. Exotic Bows are the ones with all the crazy damage dealing buffs that don't benefit from Oathkeepers pretty much at all! Also, aside from Leviathans Breath none of them are really designed to be used for DPS against really beefy targets! Some definitely have uses against champions but that's really as far as Bows go when it comes to actual DPS. It's almost as if Bungie wanted it that way =O
“Amazing to see it buff poison damage” bro it’s annoying enough in crucible😢
I'm here to represent Hierarchy of needs gang
Edit: I now don't approve of oathkeeper
Have you tried Wolftone with Adagio...? can do 120k damage
Earnestly I think Verglas is a strong contender. It's easy to freeze enemies in PvE and the bow can do it fairly easily on its own. Being able to ramp up to unbuffed Wish Ender levels of damage on frozen headshots while still having the option to use crystals for crowd control and ad clear on the same weapon is pretty versatile.
I love how he keeps saying Hierarchy of Needs is trash, but if you play with its perk, you'll see that Hierarchy was made for a warlock using Mantle of Battle Harmony.
Hmm, I might need to dust off my Warlock & test some builds. I have Hierarchy, just need the catalyst from Master dungeon,
I think some legendary bows should be a consideration. Point of the Stag is one anyone can grab - it has No Distractions and Vorpal (20% bonus since it’s a primary), should do pretty well.
15:45 a cabal goes into orbit
Verglas Curve is actually insane with oath keepers. I recommend taking a second look at it with stasis fragments involved, in particular whisper of fissures and whisper of rending. Don't shoot the stasis crystal itself but instead the frozen target. It's some pretty big burst damage off of a primary and if you freeze multiple targets with something like a cold snap grenade it can chain react (the shatter damage not the bow damage).
TL;DR.
WISH ENDER WITH OATHKEEPERS IS CURRENTLY TOP DPS.
If the bonus damage would just stay at lvl 4 and not vanish with time, I think it would be better, and have true sinergy with the main perk of the exotic.
That is quite literally the opposite of what they wanted with this change.
The entire point of adding the damage bonus was to encourage people to be more active and not passively sit back holding shots indefinitely.
Yes, I know, but that is against the very exotic as well. They are saying: look, you can keep the perfect charge forever, but don't. At least that's how I feel.
15:47 A goblin vex got yeet to the sky by a phalanx 🗿
Y’all are goated for finding that 1 frame damage bug, I’ll be interested to find out if Bungie didn’t noticed and Oathkeepers were bugged
If it aint stareaters or cowl outta here and block
Not related, and def not a meta weapon, but the new suros world drop strand scout Glissando has the PHAT AS$ reticle
Hierarchy of Needs Gang rise up!
Verglas, Oathkeepers is not great on their own but add whisper of rending and you deal pretty significant damage vs frozen enemies.
Makes for a fun loop of using Stasis-arrows + Duskfield grenades to explode smaller enemies, freeze majors and then kapow them.
Not saying it's particularly good tho. I really hope Oathkeepers gets another slight buff as in increasing exotic weapon perk damage or increasing the damage buff to something like 200%-250%. It's really fun to stack up damage and one shot majors with it. Just wish it actually increased dps or synergized better for some fun playstyles.
I'm honestly amazed by the level, the quality and the depth of the analysis you put on this video.
why on earth would you use this gear there's much better to use on a hunter
I might have lost my mind, but when I was using trinity with Oathkeepers, I could’ve sworn the lightning was dealing more damage
It straight up butchers your dps, and synergizes with *zero* exotic bows while not working at all with Leviathan. This 'buff' is not just worthless, it actively hurts your bow's performance. I sincerely hope it's bugged or it gets adjusted, because right now the 'bow exotic' hurting you for using a bow is just depressing. It needs either a bigger damage increase so it justifies holding an arrow for a whole 3 seconds or the damage needs to charge up way, WAY faster. Right now it's completely useless.
Seems to me like Le Monarch is a good one with Oath Keepers because you can hold indefinitely and still get the poison shot... because you can't get the poison effect unless you release immediately after full draw otherwise.
The problem is that it hurts dps for holding the bow. The damage buff just isn't enough to hold it for that long, especially for the exotics.
they should buff the draw time
Here to support wishender gang
I do want to know pvp numbers and if the damage buff helps in a meaningful way in pvp
Levis breath for me got the buff on day 1 of this season unless they changed it
The damage buff isn’t something you should be trying to go for on every shot, think of it as free bonus damage when you aren’t instantly firing your bow. Something that’ll happen a lot, especially in more difficult content that you take at a slower pace like GM’s. You can hold your bow shot, take a couple seconds to aim and/or find a target, and then shoot while still getting the perfect draw bonus and a nice extra chunk of damage. Plus it also gives you a free extra draw time master work and better accuracy in the air.
Personally I actually really like it with verglas. In difficult content it really helps with getting your first kill to get the bow going.
Love The El Der Le Monarch
an interesting change would be if oathkeepers stalled your LEGENDARY BOW'S perk cooldowns while adamantide brace is active and charging. aka archers tempo, successful warmup, rampage, all perks with a time limit.
cause there isnt a reason to use a legendary bow with this.
The only times I can see Oathkeepers being worth it are for Wishender specific builds or if they ever patch it to affect Leviathan's Breath.
For every other bow it's just not worth it because class and exotic synergy is just better without it.
Verglas just run a stasis build with whatever the best stasis exotic armor is that season.
Monarque just run a void build with whatever the best void exotic armor is that season like Gyrfalcon's.
Hierarchy and Ticuu's just run a solar build with whatever the best solar exotic armor is that season such as Ahamkara's nade spam.
Trin Ghoul just run a normal arc punch build with assassin's or liar's. Cause of the catalyst your melee and nade kills will proc lightning rod which you can then just hipfire with no charge at all to the bow to clear nearby ads, or charge for further away ads.
The damage buff to the initial arrow hit seems great on paper, but it's just not worth it. You do significantly more damage just by releasing a normal perfect draw arrow than you do holding the shot for 5 seconds for the buff before releasing. Even in Cross' previous video about Oathkeepers and Wishender. His dps check between non-Oathkeepers perfect draws and Oathkeepers perfect draws x5 he still did significantly more damage just spamming normal perfect draw shots.
He was able to fire 8 arrows with normal perfect draws for 331k total damage. And full charging Oathkeepers was able to shoot 3 arrows in the same time frame for a total of 184k damage.
The ONLY real benefit I can see to Oathkeepers in this situation is that it does SLIGHTLY increase draw speed so if Oathkeepers were used in both tests I just stated, Cross might've been able to shoot 9 arrows with normal perfect draws vs 3 arrows with full buff draws.
If Oathkeepers was actually going to be worth it it would need at least one or multiple of the following in addition to what it already does:
1) A significant increase to draw speed, kind of like an intrinsic archer's tempo, or just a flat draw speed buff.
2) Buffs bows perk damage. If it buffed Monarque's poison, Hierachy's guidance ring, Trin Ghouls lightning rod, or explosive head perks on normal bows, those would all be worth it.
3) 100% hipfire and airborne accuracy.
4) The timer either needs to be longer or not have a cap. The initial perk of Oathkeeper's is being able to hold a perfect draw indefinitely. The 2nd perk is a damage buff when perfectly drawn. The problem is that they counteract. "Yea you can hold the shot indefinitely, but you're not gonna get a damage buff if you take longer than 6 seconds to shoot." Make it so it ramps up the longer it's held, but also so that it doesn't go away when max buffed.
If a combination, or all of these changes get put through then I could see the benefit of using it over a subclass specific exotic armor piece. But sadly these changes will never happen because while it would make it more viable in PvE, it would make it busted in PvP, and unfortunately instead of balancing 2 separate game modes it's all balanced for 1 game mode.
I want Oathkeepers to be worth it, and I tested a lot myself to try to find a viable build but it just always came up short. The damage buff just isn't worth it.
Oathkeepers is a flop. Just like the glaive exotic. For any of these other bows, I would rather use exotics that take advantage of subclass keywords. Monarch? gfalcons. Ticus? Kban hand. Or just star eaters for blade barrage damage. Trinity ghoul? Might as well run it on arc with assassins cowl. V glass bow? You’re probably on stasis. Take your pick on the stasis exotics.
"So this bow doesnt get buffed, but wait there are plenty more bows"....15 minutes later...... "jup turns out all bows are crap with oathkeeper, but thx for watching" XD
Seems like they just don't help any bows gameplay loop. I feel like the power buff should go the opposite direction, like start at tier 4 and quickly fall off. That would make it help literally any bow (that applies the buff) and encourage more skill with loosing perfect draws, but not penalizing for missing them.
As much as i think having Oathkeepers buff secondary effects of bows, do you realize just how busted that would be? The nerfs it would cause? Im just happy bows have an exotic that gives them a buff purely to arrow damage, any other buff would cause chaos in PvP and probably to an extent PvE
This honestly feels... Very bad.
Heck, it feels like a bug at this point.
The whole point of this exotic armor peice is to synergize with a weapon to give it more damage.
And let's be honest, if you are using a bow, or rather HAVE to use a bow, you are more than likely going to use an exotic, especially if it has intrinsic anti-champion built in.
To me, the wait time for the damage increase is just bad design, considering the dps loss that you have for waiting, the damage increase from Oathkeepers should be like a flat 20% at all times, affecting everything, and be done with it.
No setuo, no waiting, just a flat buff. Yes it's lower but my guess is that Bungie didn't want to give them a big bump like this because they'd be afraid the meta would change just to rock these as they risk being too "spikey" in damage, scaling to unreasonable numbers.
But as it is, it's just not usable and the perfect draw thing is really just useful for Le Monarque, that's it.
This is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps me away from the game. What is the point of having an exotic armor piece that buffs bow damage if it doesn't synergize with ANY of the bows? It's honestly so frustrating watching this, even though I haven't played the game since before Lightfall. I want Destiny to be a good game, but it's stuff like this that just ruins the potential of this game and this will never be fixed by the devs.
So it has no synergy to anything but Legendaries, that's what I'm hearing? I guess I'm happy I never got a good one. What's the point if I can't use it with Trinity Ghoul, La Monarque or Leviathan's Breath. The only exotic bows I have. I sharded Tikuu's very quickly. And Verglas isn't my thing.
I might have gotten a built idea. Oathkeepers on Revenant using Raconteur and Salvation's Grip. All you're really doing with this build is making a crap ton of Stasis crystals and Shatterdiving, using them to fuel a energy weapon that has Collective Action. Course I just made this off the top of my head so this build isn't exactly perfect and definitely needs lots of work.
i'd say rework oath keeps to increase the max range of bows, 10-20% anti flinch and a few more frames of handling or draw speed what ever it already does.
Bows are really good in PVE but PVP they can't really compete. they are beat by hand cannons, the few auto rifles you'd use, and pulses
So you made a 20min to convey that only the arrow gets buffed by oath keepers?
Next time just do a post about miniscule stuff like that instead please. I was sitting here for 20 mins waiting on you to actually talk about how oath keepers is useful or what you can do with it. You could have just said "It only buffs the arrow thats why its shit with all the other exotic bows" in the wishender vid... You didn't have to make a 20min video for oath keepers to convey this minimal amout of information.
I am just disappointed.
Looking forward to the video that talks about the legendary bows and what kind of synergy is available there.😁
Was thinking the same thing. Does it stack with incandescent, etc.?
Bungie said in the TWAB, where the changes to Qathkeepers where listed, that Leviathans Breath would not benefit from the buff that Oathkeepers give. So sadly this is intended from bungie not to work.
Well monarque already got nerf on poison dmg só it shouldn't BE to buffed... But i can tell u monarque is hitting even harder on pvp with oath ! OK poison nerf was from 4 to 3 dmg but the buff dmg of oath with poison buff dmg mods well i can tell u im dropping ppl with 1 shot or almost sometimes ! 👍
I feel like they need to just cut the damage bonus by a sizable amount but make it fully activated the moment you hit perfect draw. Keep the infinite hold time, but give you a, I don't know... 30% increase in damage for a shot fired within one second of hitting full draw? That way its just a buff for bows that encourage you to perfect draw while still keeping its infinite draw time utility. Either that or make the meter grant you half the damage bonus right away but still take the same amount of time to reach the maximum bonus. Also just give it the Lucky Pants/Eriana's treatment and make the bonus damage work for Leviathan's but at a greatly reduced increase. And in case any of that sounds like a problem for PvP, they've proven that they can balance things seperately between the game modes, the damage can be either totally absent in PvP or the now standard minor boost that other exotic traits have.
Wait, so I've been using Oathkeepers with Leviathan's Breath for like two weeks... And it doesn't actually do anything?
Classic bungie. Titan exotic buffs this season make previously useless exotics god tier. Hunter exotic buffs this season make previously useless exotics useless in a new way. The cowardice to not give Leviathans breath ANY bonus with oathkeepers is hilarious and proof that they cant even keep track of their own game. Its an inconsistency that should be inexcusable. Bungue gets a straight up F grade from me for these exotic reworks this season. Hilariously bad for hunter.
Great, so Oathkeepers got buffed, but doesn't really work with any of our favorite bows except for Wish Ender. Thanks Bungie.
Cross. It's pronounced ver-GLAH. It's a French word. You wouldn't say Mardi GRASS.
As someone who was already using oathkeepers a couple seasons before this "buff" I honestly find it useless. In most situations, in the time it takes to hold for full damage I have enough time to fully draw and shoot another shot. So thats the same exact damage total, and if its something with a usable damage perk like monarque, you get that perk twice in taking two shots vs using and waiting on the "buff" damage perk. Bows already play slow with draw speed, now double that with holding for damage, its not worth it. However, it is still perfectly fine using oathkeepers to guarantee you get your bow perks off.
oathkeeper's buff could've been awesome for every exotic bow, but nope. it absolutely 100% should buff any damage that results from the bow itself
Always makes me kinda sad when something that sounds pretty cool comes out only to not have any of the interesting synergy you might hope for. Reminds me of glaives in that sense, where all the exceptions and non-synergies just make you wonder why they added glaives to the game in the first place if they're just going to live in their own little bubble.
Of course, Oathkeepers still has some good use cases and I don't mean to say it's bad, just disappointing when so much of what makes D2 exciting is the buildcrafting and synergies.
Sad that out of the box Oathkeepers is bugged. I thought it would be OP! Found out first week when on hunter it wasn't so great.
Sad about LB, too, and put a comment on Bungle's forum. No response.
Pretty sure ADS perfect draws without sacred flame refresh the timer without increasing the stacks. So once at 5 or 6 stacks of causality arrow you can just repeat ADS perfect draws without hip firing at all to keep the buff. You lose out on the explosion damage but maybe the oathkeeper buff is enough to make up for it?
😂 And here I was about to make a Leviathan build . D2 devs: HERES A USELESS BUFF TO OATH KEEPERS ENJOY. 😊
'bungie has not said anything about this' 17:23
Yes, they have - when they announced the buff for oathkeepers, they specifically said it would not work with Leviathans on purpose.
I been running crafted tyranny of heaven with dragonfly and incandescent, can still dump 50k arrows at fulk charge, exotic bows seem like a waste currently, hopefully this is unintentional
God this is disappointing. Especially with Leviathan. I don't know why they even bothered with this change if it's only purpose would be for like chunking away slowly at the Glassway boss
Im still super upset that Oathkeepers pretty much has no synergy with any exotic. Feels like Bungie was afraid of making something excitingly good.
I mean, leviathan’s breath and oathkeepers has been one of my favorite things for gambit. So for gambit specifically, still good.
Hierarchy is the one that needed the extra damage. You have to set it up which sucks. Then finally you can do some decent damage. It would have been amazing if oathkeepers buffed the seeking arrows but noooooo bungie doesn’t like fun things.
Anyone know of a weapon specific warlock exotic that buffs performance? Titans have actium for auto/MGs and hunters have oath for bows
Wish I could be playing Diablo but am not paying 20 dollars extra so am stuck with destiny really boring the dungeon carried a week for content.
Cross season of the seraph:
Hierarchy of Needs is the best primary dps!!!
Cross season of the deep:
Hierarchy is SHITE!
Very disappointing. It looks like Bungie just designed the absolute bare minimum of a weapon damage buffing exotic and pushed it out the door.
Yeah after thinking about it would LB actually benefit from the buff? Bc of the catalyst giving it archer tempo basically wouldn’t that counteract the holding of the shot on LB
Arsenic Bite with explosive and or dragonfly or rampage is hard to beat in both PvP and PVE on any class oathkeepers have finally been nerfed thank you bungie
Hi, I'm a new light that hasnt bought any DLC yet, is there a way I can get any kind of bow please? Would love one for my Void Hunter.
I'm colorblind, play on colorblind setting and nothing helps for the wishender look through walls, so i haven't used it even tho i'm a massive bow user. this isn't brought up a lot i feel like. just colorblind issues