What a tragedy that the Eastern and Western churches split, and these profundi insights were so little appreciated in the western churches. But thank God, now we can learn them through sharing on the internet. what a gift!
The Orthodox church has a much more sound theology then it's western counterpart. And although it's not inherently universalist, due to it's strict proclamation of Gods love it undoubtedly leaves open the possibility of holding of this position.
It's popped up semi-regularly all over the place among Protestant groups who infer it from whatever their denominational positions are, and from what I hear, even Roman Catholics are now (perhaps more recently) permitted to espouse hopeful restorationism. People from all corners of properly trinitarian Christianity have arrived at this conclusion of ultimate victory.
Our (the Orthodox) belief is more nuanced than any Protestant with a Bible can encapsulate. We can hold things in tension, like the idea that yes God will be in all and everything will be restored to God, but He is the all consuming fire, those who have orientated their will towards him will experience that as warmth and light and beauty and others will experience it as torment. For the beauty of Christ is so astounding that when we look upon him and realise we have betrayed him it will feel like hell. Even Saint John’s homily which he quotes notes that the demons will feel this way.
The challenge here is that Hades is not synonymous with Hell. Hades is merely the Greek name for the Hebrew Sheol - the "holding place" where the dead go (conceived by the ancient Jews as somewhere below the surface of the Earth). Gehenna is the Greek word translated as "hell" by King James. Which was an actual city (ge-hinnom; valley of Hinnom) on the south side of Jerusalem where trash was burned; the city is still there. This (purifying) fire burned all the time, which Dante took up in the 11th century and turned it into a "hell of eternal, conscious torment of fire and sulfur." Of the first 6 theological schools after the ascension of Christ, only 1 taught hell as eternal damnation (the School of Rome/Carthage). Hell as ECT is nowhere to be found in any of the official creeds of the Church, either (e.g., not in the "Jesus is Lord" first creed; not in the Romans 10:9, Philippians 2:6-11; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8; the Apostles Creed; or the Old Roman Symbol; the Nicene; not even in the Nicene-Constantinople creed). Universal Reconciliation was taught by multiple early Church Fathers (including Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom; Gregory of Nazianzus; St. Isaac of Syria; to name a few). Isn't is curious that the doctrine of hell as eternal, conscious torment - if it were so essential - isn't found in any creed of the first 6 centuries of the Church?
Are you joking? Universalism was condemned as heretical by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and that itself was ratified by the Seventh Ecumenical Council again.
@@aioniansage6081 This one I am still unsure about. The 5th council, though suspicious, was confirmed by the 6th and 7th council as well. As you know, the 5th council is said to have condemned universalism in its 15th anathema of Origin. If I am wrong, and you have proof otherwise, please do share! I am a very hopeful universalist.
@@mroberg8364I read into it, they condemned “Origenists” who had some rather curious beliefs at that time. Their beliefs didn’t really have anything to do with Origens and they didn’t condemn the Universalist aspect of what they believed just the other “wierd” beliefs. At that council there were plenty of Universalist saints, so it wouldn’t make sense for them to have condemned it a heresy since those saints would not have let that happen obviously. I think it’s difficult for the western mind to comprehend the “openness”? of eastern thought. Universalism is one of the accepted beliefs of the orthodox church. At least the one of st. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa.
Check out ex Protestant pastor now Orthodox University Dean Bradley Jerzak. His book/ U tube talks on "A more Christlike God" so liberating. A God one can truly love and worship.
is Aidan confusing 'hades' with 'hell' as in 'hell fire' ? hades (which IS sometimes called 'hell') in this context means the 'Bosom of Abraham' or 'limbo' of the 'limbo of the righteous' or 'abode of the righteous' etc - it does NOT refer to hell as the place of punishment. BTW why doesn't Fr Kimel dress as a priest?
Such a difference did not exist in many of the Fathers. Rewatch and listen closer, many of these fathers saw Christ’s harrowing of hades as the harrowing of all who were in the grave.
Universalist really need to stop viewing themselves through the lens of Orthodoxy. There are no “universalist implications” it is the Gospel. The people preaching the Gospel and loving one another are the ecclesia. Claiming to be God’s church does not make it so. Faith traditions are of the flesh. Religion is of the flesh. Dogma is of the flesh. The spirit loves. The spirit rejoices in the truth. The spirit sacrifices itself for the benefit of others.
I'm not sure this version of universalism makes God sound any better than the monster of Calvinism. In this understanding, Jesus says, "You WILL say you love me--you WILL bow down and worship me, and if you don't, I will pursue you until the end of eternity until you do. I'll make any other choice other than to love and worship me so painful that in the end, you will beg for my mercy and of your own free will bow your knee to me. Resistance is Futile! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!" (I'm sorry--this Jesus you describe sounds like a movie villain.) No. True free will means we can freely choose not to love or worship Jesus, and Jesus is OK with that. If God doesn't want robots, then we can use our free will not to love Him--and God accepts that. And, God being God, still works to make us happy without him, the same way a jilted lover wishes his ex-partner all the happiness in the world in their new marriage. Universalism means Jesus doesn't require us to love and worship him. Universalism means God loves us even when we freely choose not to love Him--forever. God loves us and works to make us happy whatever we end up choosing. I'm not a troll! :) I've followed this channel and have posted on Eclectic Orthoodoxy. They help me think through these issues, and I'm a glad there's a forum for open discussion.
You're missing an important piece, which is a true understanding of freedom. True freedom is to know the good and desire it endlessly. Just as God is not made less free by his inability to desire or do evil, a human being is not more 'free' because they can be enslaved by evil. Christ doesn't punish until we give in begrudingly, he removes the scale of sin that stops a person from seeing the true good. The removal of the impurity is the painful experience, but the removal of impurity creates pure gold. Like walking out into the sun after being in a dark room, its painful at first, but once you're properly prepared the sun gives you happiness. God is the brightness light imaginable, and we are all still dwelling in a dark room, the work of God is to prepare us for that light and to leave us descending deeper and deeper into it eternally. The idea that anyone can reject God rationally, as if he is some kind of friend who you can be fond of or not is missing the point. God isn't just a being you feel some desire for or not, God is the all pervading source of goodness, to whatever extent a person desires goodness, they desire God. The desire for happiness is itself a desire for God because God is happiness. What you're essentially saying is that someone can desire all the things that are the outpouring of goodness, whilst not desiring that goodness itself. Everyone will desire that goodness, more than anything imaginable, once they're truly free to do so.
@@youngyvidz716 It might be irrational and painful for us to choose something less than God, but what does God do if we make that choice? Does He send us to Hell--work to make us more unhappy than we already are? Or does He try to make us happy within the limits we have chosen? God isn't an angry lover who says, "I'm the best thing that ever happened to you! I won't let you be happy until you choose me!" That may be the case, but even if we don't make the best choice--if we choose a level of happiness less than union with God--maybe God doesn't punish us. Or chase us down. Like any good friend, maybe He supports us and does His best to make us happy within our limits. Isn't it possible that there will be some souls who just don't want perfect union with God? That are content with less? Why does there have to be a binary between eternal bliss and eternal conscious torment? What about eternal vague contentment? Isn't there a Wyoming in Heaven--a place not that great but not that bad? If God gives us free will, He should give a range of choices--not just Heaven or Hell.
@@stuartkenny3050 You seem to implicitly believe that there is a better choice than "heaven" - e.g. Wyoming (and I do not take you literally here - i.e. I think I get the gist) But I think this is a failure of imagination - and something you've possibly experienced in your life of "God" (perhaps as others have religiously defined him) that you intuitively find off-putting - like some purifying astringent version of "holiness", etc. Be assured God loves the earthiness of the earth - and that heaven will come to earth (yes, even Wyoming) - Try and imagine the very best of your experience of nature and humanity then multiply times infinity - in other words what God has in store is all the truly good, true and beautiful you have experienced in life will be there with no evil or futility to distract us from His immediacy in all things. Jesus said, "Behold! I am making all things new!" - not all new things... The best of Orthodoxy says that you were made for this - it's embedded in your very essential nature - and any version of "free" will (that is truly faithful to your nature) cannot find complete and utter satisfaction apart from this earthy but beatific "vision" - So, yes, you may find the Wyoming of which you speak - and live there for a few million years - but, your heart will remain restless until you find your rest in Him (and His "new" Wyoming resurrected from the "old") Peace and Love! - wayne
@@stuartkenny3050 That’s just it: you will choose the best, ultimately. And you will do it freely in perfect accord with your true self- your true nature, revealed in the God-Man, Jesus Christ. The best analogy I can think of is a heavy, long standing cigarette smoker: it is truly unimaginable to think of being free from the addiction OR even wanting to be free… until one day you ARE free- and grateful to be what you have become… I think your doubts may boil down to this: is God infinitely Good? It’s the same fundamental question asked in the garden of Eden… The answer doesn’t come propositionally- but experientially…
What a tragedy that the Eastern and Western churches split, and these profundi insights were so little appreciated in the western churches. But thank God, now we can learn them through sharing on the internet. what a gift!
The Orthodox church has a much more sound theology then it's western counterpart. And although it's not inherently universalist, due to it's strict proclamation of Gods love it undoubtedly leaves open the possibility of holding of this position.
Very true!
It's popped up semi-regularly all over the place among Protestant groups who infer it from whatever their denominational positions are, and from what I hear, even Roman Catholics are now (perhaps more recently) permitted to espouse hopeful restorationism. People from all corners of properly trinitarian Christianity have arrived at this conclusion of ultimate victory.
Fr. Aiden was very generous with his time and wisdom with me via email! It was most helpful! Thank you sir!
Our (the Orthodox) belief is more nuanced than any Protestant with a Bible can encapsulate. We can hold things in tension, like the idea that yes God will be in all and everything will be restored to God, but He is the all consuming fire, those who have orientated their will towards him will experience that as warmth and light and beauty and others will experience it as torment. For the beauty of Christ is so astounding that when we look upon him and realise we have betrayed him it will feel like hell. Even Saint John’s homily which he quotes notes that the demons will feel this way.
Thank you, for your joy
Amen. I believe you are right Fr. Kimmel.
The challenge here is that Hades is not synonymous with Hell. Hades is merely the Greek name for the Hebrew Sheol - the "holding place" where the dead go (conceived by the ancient Jews as somewhere below the surface of the Earth). Gehenna is the Greek word translated as "hell" by King James. Which was an actual city (ge-hinnom; valley of Hinnom) on the south side of Jerusalem where trash was burned; the city is still there. This (purifying) fire burned all the time, which Dante took up in the 11th century and turned it into a "hell of eternal, conscious torment of fire and sulfur."
Of the first 6 theological schools after the ascension of Christ, only 1 taught hell as eternal damnation (the School of Rome/Carthage). Hell as ECT is nowhere to be found in any of the official creeds of the Church, either (e.g., not in the "Jesus is Lord" first creed; not in the Romans 10:9, Philippians 2:6-11; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8; the Apostles Creed; or the Old Roman Symbol; the Nicene; not even in the Nicene-Constantinople creed).
Universal Reconciliation was taught by multiple early Church Fathers (including Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom; Gregory of Nazianzus; St. Isaac of Syria; to name a few).
Isn't is curious that the doctrine of hell as eternal, conscious torment - if it were so essential - isn't found in any creed of the first 6 centuries of the Church?
Nor was it brought up as a "heresy" at early church councils.
Are you joking? Universalism was condemned as heretical by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and that itself was ratified by the Seventh Ecumenical Council again.
Are you sure about St. John Chrysostom?
@@aioniansage6081 This one I am still unsure about. The 5th council, though suspicious, was confirmed by the 6th and 7th council as well. As you know, the 5th council is said to have condemned universalism in its 15th anathema of Origin. If I am wrong, and you have proof otherwise, please do share! I am a very hopeful universalist.
@@mroberg8364I read into it, they condemned “Origenists” who had some rather curious beliefs at that time. Their beliefs didn’t really have anything to do with Origens and they didn’t condemn the Universalist aspect of what they believed just the other “wierd” beliefs. At that council there were plenty of Universalist saints, so it wouldn’t make sense for them to have condemned it a heresy since those saints would not have let that happen obviously. I think it’s difficult for the western mind to comprehend the “openness”? of eastern thought. Universalism is one of the accepted beliefs of the orthodox church. At least the one of st. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa.
Hasn’t Hilarion backtracked on universalism once he was subsumed by the Russian Orthodox Church?
Can we speak of hell as allegorical as well? In other words, Christ frees us from the hell of our hearts and minds here and now?
Are there any Eastern Orthodox preachers that proclaim universalism besides this priest? If so, where can they be found?
Check out ex Protestant pastor now Orthodox University Dean Bradley Jerzak. His book/ U tube talks on "A more Christlike God" so liberating. A God one can truly love and worship.
is Aidan confusing 'hades' with 'hell' as in 'hell fire' ? hades (which IS sometimes called 'hell') in this context means the 'Bosom of Abraham' or 'limbo' of the 'limbo of the righteous' or 'abode of the righteous' etc - it does NOT refer to hell as the place of punishment. BTW why doesn't Fr Kimel dress as a priest?
Such a difference did not exist in many of the Fathers. Rewatch and listen closer, many of these fathers saw Christ’s harrowing of hades as the harrowing of all who were in the grave.
Universalist really need to stop viewing themselves through the lens of Orthodoxy.
There are no “universalist implications” it is the Gospel.
The people preaching the Gospel and loving one another are the ecclesia. Claiming to be God’s church does not make it so.
Faith traditions are of the flesh.
Religion is of the flesh.
Dogma is of the flesh.
The spirit loves. The spirit rejoices in the truth. The spirit sacrifices itself for the benefit of others.
I'm not sure this version of universalism makes God sound any better than the monster of Calvinism. In this understanding, Jesus says, "You WILL say you love me--you WILL bow down and worship me, and if you don't, I will pursue you until the end of eternity until you do. I'll make any other choice other than to love and worship me so painful that in the end, you will beg for my mercy and of your own free will bow your knee to me. Resistance is Futile! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!" (I'm sorry--this Jesus you describe sounds like a movie villain.)
No. True free will means we can freely choose not to love or worship Jesus, and Jesus is OK with that. If God doesn't want robots, then we can use our free will not to love Him--and God accepts that. And, God being God, still works to make us happy without him, the same way a jilted lover wishes his ex-partner all the happiness in the world in their new marriage.
Universalism means Jesus doesn't require us to love and worship him. Universalism means God loves us even when we freely choose not to love Him--forever. God loves us and works to make us happy whatever we end up choosing.
I'm not a troll! :) I've followed this channel and have posted on Eclectic Orthoodoxy. They help me think through these issues, and I'm a glad there's a forum for open discussion.
You're missing an important piece, which is a true understanding of freedom. True freedom is to know the good and desire it endlessly. Just as God is not made less free by his inability to desire or do evil, a human being is not more 'free' because they can be enslaved by evil.
Christ doesn't punish until we give in begrudingly, he removes the scale of sin that stops a person from seeing the true good. The removal of the impurity is the painful experience, but the removal of impurity creates pure gold. Like walking out into the sun after being in a dark room, its painful at first, but once you're properly prepared the sun gives you happiness. God is the brightness light imaginable, and we are all still dwelling in a dark room, the work of God is to prepare us for that light and to leave us descending deeper and deeper into it eternally.
The idea that anyone can reject God rationally, as if he is some kind of friend who you can be fond of or not is missing the point. God isn't just a being you feel some desire for or not, God is the all pervading source of goodness, to whatever extent a person desires goodness, they desire God. The desire for happiness is itself a desire for God because God is happiness. What you're essentially saying is that someone can desire all the things that are the outpouring of goodness, whilst not desiring that goodness itself. Everyone will desire that goodness, more than anything imaginable, once they're truly free to do so.
@@youngyvidz716 It might be irrational and painful for us to choose something less than God, but what does God do if we make that choice? Does He send us to Hell--work to make us more unhappy than we already are? Or does He try to make us happy within the limits we have chosen?
God isn't an angry lover who says, "I'm the best thing that ever happened to you! I won't let you be happy until you choose me!" That may be the case, but even if we don't make the best choice--if we choose a level of happiness less than union with God--maybe God doesn't punish us. Or chase us down. Like any good friend, maybe He supports us and does His best to make us happy within our limits.
Isn't it possible that there will be some souls who just don't want perfect union with God? That are content with less? Why does there have to be a binary between eternal bliss and eternal conscious torment? What about eternal vague contentment? Isn't there a Wyoming in Heaven--a place not that great but not that bad?
If God gives us free will, He should give a range of choices--not just Heaven or Hell.
@@stuartkenny3050 You seem to implicitly believe that there is a better choice than "heaven" - e.g. Wyoming (and I do not take you literally here - i.e. I think I get the gist)
But I think this is a failure of imagination - and something you've possibly experienced in your life of "God" (perhaps as others have religiously defined him) that you intuitively find off-putting - like some purifying astringent version of "holiness", etc.
Be assured God loves the earthiness of the earth - and that heaven will come to earth (yes, even Wyoming) - Try and imagine the very best of your experience of nature and humanity then multiply times infinity - in other words what God has in store is all the truly good, true and beautiful you have experienced in life will be there with no evil or futility to distract us from His immediacy in all things. Jesus said, "Behold! I am making all things new!" - not all new things...
The best of Orthodoxy says that you were made for this - it's embedded in your very essential nature - and any version of "free" will (that is truly faithful to your nature) cannot find complete and utter satisfaction apart from this earthy but beatific "vision" -
So, yes, you may find the Wyoming of which you speak - and live there for a few million years - but, your heart will remain restless until you find your rest in Him (and His "new" Wyoming resurrected from the "old")
Peace and Love!
- wayne
@@MrHwaynefair What will God do to us if we don't choose the best for ourselves? Eternally?
@@stuartkenny3050 That’s just it: you will choose the best, ultimately. And you will do it freely in perfect accord with your true self- your true nature, revealed in the God-Man, Jesus Christ. The best analogy I can think of is a heavy, long standing cigarette smoker: it is truly unimaginable to think of being free from the addiction OR even wanting to be free… until one day you ARE free- and grateful to be what you have become…
I think your doubts may boil down to this: is God infinitely Good? It’s the same fundamental question asked in the garden of Eden… The answer doesn’t come propositionally- but experientially…