What's wrong with my grow? My miniature fruits quandary. Volume, epigenetics, viruses? Please help!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2023
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I would run 1 or 2 mini monos outside of the martha as a controlled variable. Same spawn and ratios etc to figure out whether it is an environmental issue.
It is the main issue! Too little humidity!
Thanks for sharing your boxes that are not perfect. It gives us hope as we navigate between the Science and the Art in all this.
This is such a good point. I only recently realized that it was foolish to expect the same picturesque results as many people who post videos. I try to emulate all the details that I can discern but only achieve the same level of visual perfection through luck. It's super encouraging to see that Edward, with formal education in this subject, also spawns less-than-perfect tubs.
Cubes are notoriously hard to cultivate in a tent. They’re more akin to monotub or shoebox conditions. This is the reason I personally haven’t gone the Martha route. Everyone I see runs into this exact issue. Don’t forget, substrate is exclusively used for anchoring our babies. There’s no nutritional value in it. Your depth is solid. You might consider adding nutrients in your sub as a FAFO if you want to continue the tent route. Good luck Dr., I love watching your informative videos.
I had my thinking backwards. I get it now. Substrate is food. Feed the monsters. 1 to 2 may not produce best. I will try 1 to 3
When this happens to me , it’s usually because my sub didn’t have enough water. I don’t see you sub shrinking though. I’ve gone back and added water to the bottom of the sub and sometimes they’ve taken right off.
I grow a lot of albino strains, and I’ve noticed particularly with Wom-JF I get an occasional tub that produces tiny mushrooms. Often the pinset in these under-performing tubs will fool you and you’ll be thinking the tub is prepping to blows the roof off... But then they’ll mature as these diminutive fruitbodies unfit for even the tiniest Smurf. Like maybe one out of every 20 multi-spore tubs will do this. I’ve observed this trend over many hundreds, if not thousands of tubs, so the sample size is adequate to observe meaningful trends. It’s perplexing.
Not specific to that tiny-fruitbody-phenomenon, one thing that has helped me achieve greater consistency with respect to stature has been tightly regulating substrate moisture levels. Depending upon how much substrate I prepare, I know how many tubs will be filled at the outset. Typically this is 11 tubs for my usual substrate recipe. After filling all the tubs with substrate and spawn, I collectively weigh all the tubs, and determine how much water I want to distribute amongst them in the form of an additional top spray. Then each box is put on a scale and topped up to meet a predetermined weight. It sounds like a lot of work, but it all fits into the workflow like cake once a protocol is established. In my environment aiming for the upper limits of field capacity helps with maximizing yield.
Thanks. I think consistency is definitely important. I don't do anywhere near that volume, so each shoebox is a bit of a crap shot. It is amazing how sensitive each cultigen is to the moisture, substrate level, amount of spawn, etc. I'd love to have a facility where I could run the same cultigen while only messing with one variable (e.g. substrate moisture level), but I only have a little 4x8 tent right now. That is about all I can handle. Thank you for the insights and thanks for watching.
You have Water.No enough Water is little Shrooms or 2,3 big Shrooms alone.You can dunk before fruiting or Vermiculite
Let the Co2 build up some more , restricted the air flow so they have no choice but to stretch and grow bigger .
You need a much higher spawn:coir ratio. 1:3 would be the smallest, even wirh baccy jars. I do 1:5 with healthy spawn
maybe it's the liner being high? cut it to sub level they do look thick tho
Reduce the amount of light and maybe increase humidity a wee little bit??
I think youre on the right track, id be thinking much the same as you
Maybe indirectly it is the lack of sub, but by way off too much water loss? Marthas can dry out a lot faster. Like you said they formed well, just small, which also makes me think this
I also think youre right about c02. I have a friend who drills little co2-sink holes on the sides of his shoeboxes almost flush with the bottom, so as the liner shrinks the c02 can sink out the bottom 🤷♂️ (but he also trims his liners very close to the substrate surface)
In my last tent i had an exhaust fan that was really powerful, and i got a mechanical timer to turn it on twice a day full power for 1 minute of intense venting, to sort of indirectly stir up all the air and draw fresh air in
That’s what I do with my shoeboxes as well. Liner gets trimmed right at the substrate level, so CO2 can spill over the sides and exit through small holes. Seems to work nicely.
Ed i would run a lid on the shoe boxes, till your fruits get to the lid. Same thing was happening to a friend. Once your pin set gets bigger or to the lid. dub tub it with same type of container. or use a 3 ft tub and put the clear side up, Use the lid as the bottom with a one of them pads inside, or spray your walls of the big container that your shoe boxes would be in (or both, less wall spaying) . To Always have mist on your walls of the container, so sub stays hydrated it's a good way to see how fast your evaporation is going to if there in no moister on the walls u no to add. I think the microclimate has to be played with. I think of tents as a sub chamber where your relative humidity and temperature is close to to the tubs inside. and the outside of the tent can be whatever temp or humidity. it's just a better way to control the microclimate in the tubs. if not i would think the hole tent would have to be like the tub walls and the hole tent as a microclimate with a fogger all that stuff. I know you said you don't want your walls wet. I wouldn't either. All u need is a clear tub, do what u have to for fae . micro tape or the 2- 3inch filters and give it a go. Just do one and see if it makes a difference (u can fit 3 shoe boxes in one container/tub and they usually fit in racks) . Good Luck, I'm really new to this maybe 2 years and have seasonal weather hear. I found the tent to be the climate for the microclimate lol, do you have a favorite cube you can recommend off of your list? there's so many. PS. love your straightforward talking and cutting the BS out of the way for everyone it's so needed. You're the Man of Mans ED keep it real.✌
Thanks for the advice. I'm really liking AJMF and KSAT stuff recently.
No problem man! Thank you for all your advice. I'll definitely have to give them a try in a bit, KSAT looks cool AJMF sounds groovy. I was just looking at the JMF . I like my albino's so the AJMF be perfect! Thanks much appreciated@@edwardgrand
Yeah that's strange. I've only ran that Variety in bags and they always turn out to be monsters never a huge flash but big boys that are always 100 G or more. In my bags the cake is usually always about 5 or 6 in thick and packed really well and I use pretty heavy nutrients in my sub. Interesting though I've never seen that variety quite that small
The apes i have been running averaged 50gms ! This run i have doubled the substrate depth to see if the Size Increases .
This is exactly what i am going through right now, small fruits & am seeing all these youtubers with their 300G fruits making me wonder what i am doing wrong. Genetics, Genetics, Genetics okay maybe some environmental love 😅 lol want that magic touch.
Experiment with different spawn/substrate rations and the total amount of spawn. Some cultigens need a lot more water/substrate, so go toward 1:4 or lower.
@@edwardgrand Thank you so much for taking the time to reply !
I don't know what I'm talking about but maybe Let it colonize substrate longer before fruiting conditions
Fine tuning your VPD... it does look a little light on the sub but hard to say without knowing all the variables.
If your having an issue maintaining moisture a casing layer may help? Though your cake isn't shrinking. I'm 3 month into growing so I wouldn't listen to me haha. I did run a tent and have the same issue though. Went to domes for this run and have some great canopies coming.
Thanks. I do a pseudocasing when I mix spawn, but started making it thicker. I am also leaving the lids on the shoeboxes while they are in the tent for a little bit. Seems to be working. I think that might have been a batch of bad spawn? I've had two others work out fine since that video.
@edwardgrand I think that's hard to say if it was a lack of moisture or just genetics. Is this something you are able to send in and have it tested for? I'm new to the genes or just mycology in general so I'm not sure how DNA testing works. I will be looking into that soon. Just have plenty to learn about in the mean time hah. Also, just wondering if you ever got spores from that iceberg? To me, those are some beautiful fruiting bodies. Like a finger that got smashed on the tip haha.
@@MastersujoI think I worked it out to be just bad spawn. The Iceberg spores are on my Sporeswaps site.
sporeswaps.com/shop/actives-spores/spores/iceberg-true-albino-swab-set/
@edwardgrand dope! I'm looking to get some more cultures in the next few months. I'm still just making sure I dial cubes in. But this guy is definitely on my radar. That site you posted, thank you for that BTW, seems to have other vendors. I will buy from you cause I trust your work, but are the other vendors reputable? Or does the site take just about anyone selling spores?
Thank you for your videos explaining the ins and outs. I'm learning a ton. You rock!
I'm also growing in a tent and am having the same issue. I'm very confused because I started with properly mixed substrate and my surface conditions look right with small beads of water on top, the sides of the tub have condensation and the tent has been at 90-95RH then entire time. Yet when I tore a chunk of substrate out just now it was near completely dry. Not sure if this is your problem but I'm guessing its mine!
My iceberg does the opposite, atleast currently
Have you ever tried drilling holes in the sides of the shoebox? I’m thinking of doing a few like that just to see what happens. My theory is it could allow more airflow thus less CO2 builds up inside the tub 🤷♂️
I did think about doing that. I'm gonna try to make the substrate deeper first. I have too many tubs with holes all over them already. LOL
mabey try a side×side fafo w/ my world famous "top dog tek" lol! patent pending... seriously though, i cultivate edible cultivators in stacked buckets with a full mix of the spawn/sub, but i do the porcini mushrooms in 52 qt. monos w/liners and the 1/32" dice pattern. 🎲 Basically, it's reserving enough spawn to sprinkle evenly across the top of a fully mixed sub/spawn base, the pseudo case layer applied at the same time... this extra spawn layer almost always gives you full colonization from top-down instead of bottom-up. i believe that full colonization of the casing surface is key to maximum bio efficiency. 😉 of course we're talking bolets, but a tub is tub, right?
I increased my substrate on shoeboxes so it fills to about 50% up the wall
Thanks. That is what I did the other day too :)
I had the same issue and thought perhaps my ratio was off with too little substrate, so I made a shoebox with double (Thinking extra water in Coir since its double now and at field cap) and waiting for it to pin now. Hoping that fixes it but if you figure it out let us know. This is also for a Leucistic type so hoping it fruits and not just blob or stall out like last one.
I'm gonna try some shorter trays and put the sub all the way up to the rim. Hopefully it does the trick. Will let you know ;)
Ive had that happen with low spawn rate cake that is also slightly bacterial
I was thinking that too. That is why I did 1:1 and 1:3. Seems spawn ratio isn't it. I think the spawn was 100% too. I was thinking viruses for a while...
My stargazer did this too, had miniatures not aborts. I thought it was from to warm of temps. Now i really dont know.
Temperature might be another problem...I'm running at 27C. But other cultigens seem ok...so confused.
@@edwardgrandCould it be you a lot for the space?
I'm having trouble with a lot of my LC I've gotten? My iceberg does great but nutcracker takes forever to colonize and been in fruit for 13 days now and no pins or anything. Choco tat colonized quick but turned to this gel like mycelium?
I don't think it would be the CO2 bro. Because I leave them sealed set and forget until they're finished and I get monsters. So I don't know
Same thing going on with zombieghost
Toque, Pearly gates in same chamber, monstrous.
ZG isnt even worth harvesting and drying, will fall thru tray in dehydrator after drying
You growing them in a martha or your big tent? Anytime I had stubies is when I took my covers off in my tent to early. Seems like if they get to much air to early they stay short. but that could just be my set up. I grow in those humidity domes for seeding trays in a martha tent though. I just open up the vents about a day before it looks like the vails are gonna rip.
Yes. I am growing in a Martha, inside a bigger 4x8 tent. Too much air could definitely be a problem. It might be kind of zapping/stunting the pins. I might start using the humidity domes. Thanks for the ideas.
Have you put a CO2 monitor in there to check your lvls not hard to sky rocket CO2 in a tent
I did, but it was a cheap one. Didn't really give me accurate results.
You said same spawn, and I'd always question that first. I have suspected bacteria of causing this, maybe the fruit in the tub with the lower ratio has less bacteria in the environment and can make bigger fruit.. I'm really just guessing though. The surface also looks super unevenly colonized. I'd just suspect spawn and run again
I wish it was the spawn. I could fix that. But I don't think that is it. I will run it again. Thanks.
@@edwardgrand It's just that the surface too makes me think there's more going on than just wrong conditions.. But we'll see ^^
It's not co2, i bet your substrate is on the drier side of field capacity. They're only growing to what moisture they have. Over dosing co2 on cubes will create taller fruit with fuzzy feet. Ive shown you my room with always above 850ppm... inside my tubs would be higher again.
Yeah. I'm guessing the dry substrate and small volume. I'm moving back to the seedling trays :)
@edwardgrand more surface area for the win always. Try pushing the moisture level up and remember that even with humidity controlled in the tent, airflow will still be affecting it and maybe drying the cakes up a little more.
I have been experiencing this same issue the last couple weeks. Driving me insane
Damn near all of my tubs (un modded and modified monotubs not inside any tent just on a shelf in the room) are kicking out mini mini fruits that start to soften and ripen before they even reach size. Not aborting like you say, but not growing any bit to size whatso ever.
I’m friggin stumped. Leaning towards a CO2 build up but fuck if I have any actual idea
Field capacity on my tubs has been a little wet as I’m adjusting to new coco and squeezing a lot of excess water out. And I don’t open and fan my tubs so it’s not too much air or too little water I don’t think. Big time stumped.
Please save us Ed I need help lol
@@SwampFox_FungiIf I figure it out, I will let you know. I've been struggling with this issue for like 2 years now. Haven't cracked the code. I do have two shoeboxes that are literally on the same shelf in the tent that are maturing beautifully! Maybe it's all of the 8-10 variables that just need to be tweaked!
I have similar size fruits in my ac infinity. I just thought it was my genetics. The more I read the more it seems like this may have a corilation to the grow tents
Some people say that, but I have had many very good grows in Martha and my larger tent. The people who say that just seem to have something against grow tents. I have had the same phenomenon happen in bags and monotubs. It is definitely not unique to grow tents. Maybe they are jealous of the yields once a tent gets dialed in? LOL
Im really happy to hear that. Been doing pretty good with the blankets of LBM's but have not tried the really cool looking fruits yet. I have some of your genetics coming. Can't wait! Some of those things are freaking ART! Thank you for all you do Ed!
How is it possible to open air swab and even let them dry open air with out any bacteria or spores falling on them at all? Still mind blown about that hehe
Just let them dry for about 30 minutes in a clean, calm spot that has been wiped thoroughly with 70%.
Maybe they were isolated by another grower using a diffrent ratio alot
I definitely think that is an issue. Going from bags->tubs->trays, etc. seems to definitely be an issue with some cultigens. I guess we all need to isolate our own things for our conditions.
Maybe Co2 getting trapped in the shoebox?
I am thinking that. Excess CO2 normally makes elongated stems in oysters, but maybe it doesn't apply to cubes??? I will try out the new seedling trays with no lip on them so the CO2 just fall off. Thanks.
@@edwardgrand Sawadee Ka Ed. You're welcome, and thank you for your kind response. Those trays could be a very efficacious gamechanger. Got my fingers crossed. 🤞🏻
Pull a chunk of sub, is it at field cap, did it pull away from the tub actually using some moisture?
Most of what I've been reading seems to indicate this condition in too much moisture but that's nothing first hand. I have a similar problem.
It is kind of funny. Could be too much or too little water. The sub seems fine though :(
@@edwardgrand Iso'd GT(GE) in same tubs no liner in a 72 tub with incon pad and same shit. It was fighting something in the casing though pretty sure. They thickening but not gaining the height, also had base cracking and a stipe stripe.
@@pXnEmericais stipe stripe a problem? Do you know what causes it?
@@nicolasgeiger1358 Too unexperienced to be giving any kind of advice. Though I'm guessing moisture or contam. What I'm seeing looks like a wetter "wound" that then dries up or gets encompassed. Maybe the path the mushrooms uptake with like a vein, maybe too much or contams darken or water log it, dunno?
@@pXnEmericaI’ve def had stripes from too much moisture
does humidity stunt them?
Not unless it causes condensation or free water. I've had trouble with Pseudomonas bacteria when it is too moist.
Is cluster growth Genetics? Has anyone had luck using table salt to halt or suppress Trichoderma?
Salt, H2O2/peroxide, flame, cutting...I think I've tried it all. I just throw it away now. It's like trying to save a sinking ship once the green monster comes.
I had trich in one of my recent tubs, in a tent. Everyone told me it was the end of the world. Covered the trich with a damp paper towel, cut out 4" radius around the growth, sprayed everything with peroxide and its 3 weeks later with no recurrence anywhere on the cake or the tub. I will say I caught it within hours of it appearing and the cake was over 90% colonized. Don't know that it will work every time but it did this time!
@@heyitsmkgaming ahhh thank you for your trichoderma testimony. Gonna try that next time. I've done the table salt trick and it held it at bay until harvest time. But I didn't catch it nearly in time as you did.
@@heyitsmkgamingSame type of experience here. I think as long as you catch it and deal with it quickly, there is no need to over-react. These people who still think a little contam is the end of the world might just be parroting old myths and not have any real experience dealing with it. As long as we check our grows once a day and make sure everything is going ok, I don't worry about it like I used to. Thanks for sharing your experience.
toss the tent .
"Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure* 😂
Height is gained while they are searching for light. 👀
Have you been doing further experiments with grain to spawn ratios since your first video on the subject? You may find this video comparing shoeboxes spawning with two different levels of substrate interesting. th-cam.com/video/QusiBsZ0Q4U/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=MycoBill There isn't much in terms of analysis but you can certainly see a big difference in outcome. Personally I find it perplexing that the container with more substrate seems to be maturing noticeably more quickly. I would expect a difference in number of pins/size of fruit, but not expect to see such a big difference in rate of growth.
I will continue to experiment with different fruiting containers. I've got like 5 different sizes/shapes of containers that I have tried the last few years. So many variables have also been changed during that process though. Hard to keep track of what might be the best combination of container, sub volume, sub recipe, cultigen, environmental conditions, spawn ratios...on and on... Definitely a work in progress.