I hope so. What might be possible is an alteration to the core system of casting and dispelling in a way that encapsulated the lores. That was never part of things before. E.g. as someone mentioned above, the daemonologist rolling three dicing and picking the highest two but also opening himself up to miscasts on any double one to simulate his more reckless exposure to raw power.
Either that, getting Magic Custom Fit for the different Lores... or we get a Magic DLC, aka they sell us a Book that just does Magic in depth Later. Unfortunately either is possible nowadays :(
@@kosakuito9496what do you mean, nowadays? This has been the case multiple times throughout the history of WHFB. There has been twice where the base game had very little magic. Both 4th and 5th edition had separate magic books. I have them here on the bookshelf next to my desk in my office.
The most exciting part of the announcement is actually, I think, that the Damsels can ride pegasi. This is because Damsel on Pegasus is not a model in the GW range. So, as far as I can tell, we’re going to see GW reverse course on the directions we had seen in Sigmar and 40k and finally put the hobbyist aspect of warhammer back into the spotlight.
As someone who's Damsel/Prophetess had a tendency to kill more Knights in any lance she was in than any opposing models I very much welcome this! Perhaps now she can fly around the field of battle, making a ruddy nuisance of herself, buffing and de-buffing key units to her little hearts content, whilst limiting/denying attempts for the brutish, smelly enemy to soil her lovely new dress!
Part of the issue with 8e magic was that the loss of the wizard only occurred in 1/12 situations after the miscast (1/6 to get the big detonation, then 1/2 for the wizard to live/die). And miscasts were not exactly a given either, even with 6 dice. In a lot of situations, the risk reward was worth it, especially with the big removal spells (dwellers, dreaded 13th, purple sun, etc.). So as a result we saw a lot of 6 dicing of those spells. If the miscast table was more dangerous, we might have seen more dynamic play in the magic phase. But unless there was a big roll for winds, there was just a lot of "6 dice spell X" and then the magic phase ended - for one reason or another (out of dice, wizard died, etc.).
Agree. A key mechanic I would have added to 8th was a modification on the miscast table. Say -1 for five dicing a spell and -2 for six dicing. And a positive modifier for two dicing.
I think the other face of that very ugly coin was the rules for hordes. Too many lists were just taking a giant brick of guys 10 wide because no other infantry tactics were viable.
Warhammer 4th edition magic system with the cards was the best. I used to make up my own games where we had 4 wizards on each side battling against each other. All colleges of magic represented.
I think the 2D6 makes sense. You have magic throughout all phases. It needed to be a little simpler than "a game within the game". Too early to tell for me if I'll like the change or not. But I don't blame them for getting rid of cards and pools if spell are going to be cast in every phase of the game.
To find something positive, It will at least make powerful spells harder to cast, while with dice pool one could just add more dices to it so it got the same chance as a weaker spell. I think having spells that effects a friendly unit should be good, since it will be easier to be out of range of the enemy wizard.
Fully agree with your sceptical-but-balanced takes here. I think it's worth noting that ToW takes place in a period of the setting's history when the end times are not so close, humans haven’t studied under Teclis, and the Great War Against Chaos has not yet come, too, so maybe a less nuanced magic is suited to the kinds of stories they want the game to tell. That said, I'll probably be doing quite a lot of homebrewing! Edit: also, very cool that they're bringing back the classic WFRP lores!
The question I have about the Miscast Table is whether the "you" in the 8-12 effects means the Wizard or the player. If it means the player, then it seems that no other Wizard would be able to cast for the rest of the turn. If a miscast was rolled in the Strategy Phase then that would really suck.
@@dking6021 I think it is indeed you the player. The "Careless Conjuration" result says "The Wizard" takes a hit, it would make absolutely no sense to change to "you" in later results and still mean "The Wizard". Also, given the description of what happens in "Power Drain" it makes perfect sense that there is no more casting with the unnatural calmness going on for the rest of the turn.
Well if it were the player that would indeed make that roll a lot more threatening. It would be amusing for a miscast effect to be directed against yours truly. However I suspect that isn't the effect from an initial reading.
My guess is that it is the player. I think it's meant to be equivalent to the "lose D6 power dice" from the past versions, which would effect all of your wizards for the rest of that turn.
Hi, Really appreciate your TOW analysis since the beginning. I am a 6th edition player so i like you going through different editions including those i barely know (8th). I agree with you on this one too, although i might say Magic has always been a lucky phase, more than the others. Seeing magic influence reduced might be a good thing for me as i enjoy more movement and combat phases. Let’s see but yes this one is a bit disappointing as it’s over simplified indeed.
I’m not overly bothered by it, I don’t like how lvl 4s will again be an automatic choice. At the end of the of the day, if I don’t like it, I will just use rules from a different edition. Something to keep in mind is you can’t cast multiple hex’s or buffs on a unit, so that’s interesting. I have a feeling it’s going to be death by thousand cuts with magic rather super spells which I prefer.
I kind of like the "dueling wizard" aspect of casting and dispelling. It does favor the higher level wizard though. I will be curious how special rules and magic items will interact with spells. Granted, my Dawi could care less about spell casting...🍺
It's good to hear from someone who's thoughts so closely mirror my own. I'm already throwing ideas around for winds of magic hosue rules. We'll need to see the full rules first though.
I wish they would’ve told us whether you roll for spells known or pick. Also, I think you’re right to point out that miscasts are going to be very rare. Assuming you have a level 4 wizards who casts four spells per turn for five turns in a row, there’s only about a 40% chance that they suffer one or more miscast over those twenty spell castings.
Totally agree with you. I am really disappointed there’s no casting/dispel pool, and I think it could have been a cool opportunity to have that strategy broadened out over the whole phase like they have it. Do you use all you dice pool for movement? Or do you save some to swing a crucial combat on your flank? Such a weird thing to choose to simplify after the rest of the edition looks to be a worthy spiritual successor. Am open minded still, but disappointed. Thanks for the video as always!
From my perspective, the movement of wizzards will be indeed more important and difficult. I can imagine that most of our thought (or "Hirnschmalz" in german) will go into this aspect. Honestly my biggest wish for the new game was, that it should reduce punishment for miscast and the devastating power of spells. To often did a good/bad magic phase turn 1/2 decide a game prematurely.
Im torn between love and hate. I loved 6th ed magic system. It scaled well. I liked the winds of magic system in 8th but hated the rest of the magic phase. It also did not scale well past 2-3k pts. My biggest worry is for those armies that depend heavily on magic to succeed. Hopefully that stays. All in all im excited and cant wait for TOW
It might actually be useful to cast Storm Call on a friendly unit that's already suffering from a worse hex just to remove it. I think where they're trying to create some sort of tactical depth is in placement, not just purely in terms of position, but also whether to have them join a unit in order to cast e.g. Glittering Robe, but risk killing half the unit with a miscast. Maybe we'll see wizards constantly leaving and joining different units? Also, I agree, I really hope they limit the number of spells that can be cast per turn or have at least some other form of resource management...
Hello Punk! Nice vid you got there. I think it really is a shame that the resource management aspect is gone. I rather liked that in the few editions I got to play in the past. Still, it's not that much of an issure to me and I'm more than willing to give it a try. But that might be because I was around for the 40k Editions you mentioned. Although it worked a bit different, if we think of the same editions. It was just a Ld check to get your space magic of, actually dispelling something was a thing pretty much only Space Mariens got to do and a double 1 or double 6 while casting both gave you a S6 hit with no armour save. Which was especially bad for Space Elves, because that meant their Space Wizard was dead if he failed his Ward Save. Aaanyways, I think the integration of wizards into the other phases is rather nice, but I also think this move somewhat necessitates a simplification of the resource management. A dicepool might be a bit of a hassle to keep track of when I think of how a table looks after a turn. Dice flying into your pool, units moving to where the dice are kept. A dice pool works fine for a spererate phase, but might be a bit much for a whole turn with an utterly disorganized chaos like my tables often are. A magic card system though might have been fine and is, I think, rather intriguing. But I have no experience with that system as I started way later with Warhammer Fantasy and no idea why they didn't do that. Maybe they didn't want the players to moan about getting fleeced, as GW accessories tend to be prohibitly expensive nowadays. What I definitely agree with is that the trade-off between risk and reward really could use some more risk. Maybe a miscast when rolling a double 6 (in that case the spell should still be cast like in 8th) could be a good start, that would at least double the risk of one occuring for each spell. Maybe broken concentration is back in and just not mentioned in the article. It is very unlikely that this is the case, but one can hope and would make for a good house rule if it isn't in. Also, I think Glittering Robe works with shooting and close combat, as you target their models in both phases. Nasty thing and quite good for a signature spell if I understand that right. Snake eyes on a Fated Dispel should give you, the player, a headache.
"What I definitely agree with is that the trade-off between risk and reward really could use some more risk. Maybe a miscast when rolling a double 6 (in that case the spell should still be cast like in 8th) could be a good start, that would at least double the risk of one occurring for each spell." I think the risk/reward thing is only interesting if there is greater risk attached to trying to cast more powerful spells so for me additional miscast risks would have to be attached to them only (can't see that being the case though). With the chance of miscast being the same (and very small) for all spells in this system reducing it entirely to blind luck it would almost be fairer to do away with it all together. I know there was always the possibility of a disastrous miscast just on two dice in the older systems, but at least it was part of a bigger more varied system.
@@ClydeMillerWynant True, it would just up the risk aspect. That may be my go-to for this system because of my experience with 40k of the 2000s. I still think it might be a step in the right direction, but you are right, it isn't really a risk-reward thing and doesn't make casting strong spells riskier than casting weaker spells. But without having played for at least a bit with the full rules it's all just a bit of conjecture. And even then, I'm not a game designer (and doubt I'd be good one even if I tried).
@@AJKiesel Agreed! To be honest I'm much more interested in Dwarfs than in magic, but I do hope that the new system doesn't end up leaving those with more enthusiasm for magic too disappointed. As you say we need to see the whole thing anyway.
@@ClydeMillerWynant I too hope the magic system won't be too much of a disappointement. It was always fun to integrate magic in the combined arms approach of my beloved Empire. Although I vastly preferred the various buff and debuff spells to the outright killy spells that seem to have been preferred by a lot of people back then. I don't know what I'll be doing armywise in Old World. Empire and Wood Elves I already played in WHFB. I do like the armies and I already own them, but I always wanted to build more armies even back then. Maybe I'll have a look which character models come back for the Dwaves, the older I get the more I can identify myself with the "Old Grumblers". :D
@@AJKiesel "Although I vastly preferred the various buff and debuff spells" - what we've seen from the new game so far sounds like this is what much of the magic will be about so no change for you then! I only really like old models (up to about 1992). Dwarfs are what I mostly have so that's what I hope to play. Would love to be able to field Orcs and Goblins or Skaven, but though I have quite a lot of the former and a few of the latter it's nowhere near enough for an army in either case and the old models are prohibitively expensive. I could sort of just about do Chaos Warriors with what I've got, but though I love the models I don't really like much else about them.
Seems like a sensible, but kinda drab, system. On paper, haveing wizard movements, a more "in game mechanic" be more important than a separate "meta game mechanic" of cards or dice being horded or spent is interesting. But you pointed out that we already had that so there is that... When I read the article I also perked up about the range of dispels. Thats realy quite nice. And ofc you can get neuances in via army rules. A staff that gives +6" range to dispel. A battle banner that gives another "free" dispel atempt. Chaos or demonologists useing unfettered powers. Roll 3 dice, pick the two best to cast. BUT still count all 1s towards misscast. And any double 1s still see the spell fail. Also? Roll 3d6 and pick the lowest two to see which results you get on the table.
Yes, there is the possibility to vary the actual casting mechanic to simulate army/lore differences and magic items. That might serve to make the system a little less drab.
@@DrBlaxill Will be very interesting to see Tomb Kings for instance. I never bought nor fought them way back when. But I remeber them haveing vastly different mechanics
A great and balanced discussion, as always - well done, highly appreciated! I share your concerns concerning "TOW sounds great overall... just that simplified magic might throw a wrench in the machine" ... but we have to wait and let it play out for a bit I think. I remain mostly positive and am grateful for Warhammer returning, which is the most important thing anyway. P.S.: Once again skipping your "voice acting", which I consider pretty cringe as the kids say these days. ;)
If we assume some faction specific lore will be available in the faction rules... can someone figure out why waaagh magic is in the core rules ? Could it be chosen by multiple factions ?
I've been wondering if this is the right assumption to make. Seems logical that there will be something for Tomb Kings, but their book will be available straight away - is Waaagh magic just in the main rules because the O&G book won't be immediately available? Putting it in the main rules maybe means all the core factions' magic will be covered by the initial releases. Which other armies can't really function without their own magic? Assuming 'Necromancy' is Vampires, I guess that leaves Skaven and Ogres? Maybe lores for each Chaos God, but could perhaps imagine them doing without those to start with?
Maybe also hobgoblins in chaos dwarf armies? Although AFAIK that'd be new and thus the sort of expansion in unit choices to be expected in an army book, not just a Ravening Hordes style list. That said, they might be future-proofing the core book for when the narrative/release schedule gets around to supporting chaos dwarfs etc., too.
I think that is what I have resolved to optimistically think- that the loss of crunchy complexity might be worth it for the overall gains. Although I still am unsure what the gains will be- will have to play to find out.
I do kinda miss the idea of magic being almost a mini-game like in 4th and others. The Power cards system really was fun! That said, I must say I like the principle/core idea of the magic in the game being integrated and woven into each stage of the game rather than a bespoke phase just for itself. I think the potential is there for some really tactical play, even if it is a bit simplified compared to magic of old. I also wonder if this is perhaps in part precisely due to magic being a bit more frequent throughout the whole turn? As they say, this magic system is certainly going to be quick to use. Whether that is worth the trade off of some granularity and flavour we will have to see. My assumption (though we all know what they do!) would be that each army will have some sort of layer they place over this base system - perhaps undead would get bonus' to cast (or more powerful effects) for the amount of Necromancers they have, or, say, Wood Elves could gain similar for the amount of woodland terrain they control, and there may be options to have places of power on the table to contest that do similar - that sort of thing. I agree that there should be risks inherent in casting spells - meddling with such dark and obscure power should have threat to body, mind and soul! I'm also hoping for a really interesting magic item system. I was interested to see the confirmation it's pre-collegiate. True, the colleges are awesome, but this is at least an opportunity to explore some other things, and I'm sure they'll get to the Colleges in time (perhaps an edition or so down the line). If they are truly expanding the setting to include Cathay and things like that, then they are going to have to expand into new "colleges" and lores to account for entirely new cultures and schools of magic and magical philosophy which they might be able to explore to a degree with these core lores. Overall, I feel like magic (at least at first in this first official return to the Old World) is looking like being a bit milder and less directly impactful than in previous editions. More of a support element than a major one (not to say it won't have the potential to be decisive to a battle, but looks like it will perhaps not be a cataclysmic, nor have the raw power it did). Disappointing in some aspects, but I can appreciate the intent (even if not fully the implementation) behind the design - certainly troop choice and use and things like movement and positioning will probably be the focus, and that's no terrible thing. Looking forward to seeing some of these Universal special rules next! EDIT - the thought also occurs that magic can still be dangerous in it's compound effects - that is to say why individually the spells are perhaps a little de-fanged compared to previous editions, if you get a spell off in every phase that could add up to quite a lot of in-game impact. Especially if all the spells are on one unit - if you, say, have a spell that pulls a unit out of position or into a charge arc in the movement phase, (and also cast a movement bonus spell on your own troops to try and put the charge beyond doubt) blast the dragged unit in the shooting phase to soften it up with a fireball (as well as actual shooting), can get a hex debuff off on the unit AND buff the unit that charges it, that's a lot of factors that can compound into massive results - in this regard the strategy of the maguc phase might be in correctly guessing what your opponent is really trying to set up for with a selection of fairly mild spells, and what are decoys/magical feints.
Magic does seem a lot toned down, I think it’s perhaps for the best. Get the game on its feet and popular and in three- four years we will get a new edition and magic will probably get more nuanced. We just need to breathe life into the game and show GW that it is viable so they throw support behind it.
I broadly agree. The big picture remains broadly unchanged, which I always try not to lose sight of. Even something as integral as magic is window dressing compared to actually having a game and the support of GW.
@DrBlaxill I'd also like to point out that popular modern reinventions of the WHFB concept (Kings of War, OnePageRules, Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings, etc) also feature highly toned down magic, and they still seem quite popular despite that. Given that 40k 10th edition seems to be liberally borrowing concepts from such contemporaries, it seems likely that this is GW reading the proverbial room.
I like to assume that Dr Blaxill resides in the Dark Future setting and only lectures us when he’s fought off fuel raiders and found a safe place to park.
Initial thoughts were oh, its not what I hoped they'd do. After previous glimpses into the mechanics I expected some kind of blended rules echoing the fun of former magic styles but no, its just a dice off. Ah well, perhaps its a reflection of the timeline where the magic cat isn't out the bag enough or magic that permeates the world isnt completely tapped into yet, or its simply easier because its new edition and not everyone buying it is a longbeard with many campaigns under their belt. I'll be interested to see how its plays out, perhaps the magic items available will make me more willing to throw my magical scholar into the fray, after all it takes so long to educate them. One thing I'm sure about though, the elves and the slann must be putting on their best poker faces and playing dumb, we all know theyre capable of miracles.
Did it actually say how many casting and dispel attempts you can make in a turn? Tactically saving your dispel attempts might be the only tactical nuance we get.
Yes. They don't say that, no. It's the only modification I can see that is likely to change my view of the system. Although the broader question of what the game is like with this system incorporated will only be discovered by playing the game.
I find this somewhat disappointing, I must say. I really enjoyed the old magic system. Learning on the fly how cunning your opponents could be with magic. Try to plot out what spells they were orchestrating so you could mitigate, or outright shutdown, their sinister plans. Or the reverse, where you're the one attempting to bait your opponent. It actually made me evolve my armies to incorporate more magic users, to the point my hordes of chaos army went from undivided to fully dedicated to Tzeentch
I pivoted towards Heavens and Slaanrsh decks for exactly that reason. Not because they were the most powerful but because they were the most flexible and allowed me to use more spells in more contexts- which could gave me the edge in the mind game
I think I agree. It's dissapointing to see it so simplified, especially given how interesting a lot of the other announced changes have been. If they wanted magic to be much less prominent, there are many ways I can think of to give it less of a focus instead of gutting it so completely. Dialling back the power level of every spell seems an obvious one, as does reducing their range to require the wizard to be in more danger (which they've done). That said I also agree it's not the end of the (old) world, as some other changes (magic resistance) seem very interesting, as do the other changes we've seen. In the worst case scenario I guess I can just house-rule using my preferred magic system at home anyway.
I will miss the ability to throw just 1 die to avoid the possibility to miscast altogether. Spamming invocation of Nehek with a group of level 2 necromancers and a Mortis Engine behind with 1 die each was one of my favorite tricks. Now it seems kind of pointless when the opponent will always have something to dispel with.
If they don't have any wizards in range then they'll have very little to dispel with. I'm also not entirely sure there won't be a limit on how many times a wizard can dispel in a phase/turn even if they do have one in range.
I think it's just market speak. They also used the term 'modern' in a previous announcements. Nobody plays fantasy because it's quick, simple, or modern. There are many other options in the tapestry of life that are all of those things- Warhammer Fantasy is not one of them!
@@DrBlaxill I concur. In the 40k world people bang on about a game being quicker all the time. Soon it will be. Step 1: set up models Step 2: players roll off Step 3: the player that rolls the highest wins Step 4: pack up and go home
I get what you're saying, but consider the other side of the coin. There's definitely such a thing as being too slow and complicated, and that has consequences. Very long games can be great fun, but they also make it harder to find time to play. Dozens of complex rules can add depth, but they don't always add enough to justify the added time and brainpower spent. Plus, the more complex it is, the more intimidating it is to learn. I can testify that trying to understand charge arcs, fire arcs, and unit commands were a major obstacle to me getting into WHFB. If you demand the game take 4 hours and require a college course to understand, then you're going to have a fiercely difficult time growing the playerbase. I think we need to focus on smaller, more accessible games to help introduce players to the parts of playing Warhammer that are actually enjoyable. I can testify that introductory games we're crucial to getting me hooked.
The issue with the resource pool approach that you describe is that 8th edition magic was "solved" to a large extent. Your description of 6th/7th/8th edition was generous. The situation on the battlefield coupled with the spells available meant that 90% of the time both players knew which spells to cast and try to dispel as the other spells would have little impact on the game. The only real variable with knowledgeable players was the power pool in 8th. So I dispute your statement that 6th/7th/8th was as interactive as you suggest.
I like your point about battlefield context. Indeed, I found myself gravitating to two lores with the most flexible spells- slaanesh and heavens which could have a multitude of effects in different situations and so I very seldom had to throw many dice at spells and could keep my opponent guessing. However I'd suggest that the monodimensionality of some of the other lores was the fault of the spell writing rather than the magic system itself, and that the principle of resource management was a contributor to what was good about the system, imperfect as it was.
I agree the spell decks were a significant contributor to how the magic phase ended up. You did mention that Magic won't feel different and I agree. This year I started playing 10th edition 40k (the last time I played 40k was during the Rogue Trader era, yes I'm that old) and the psychic fireballs or plague wind don't feel any different to shooting so you're point is well made. Still I only find time to play once per month at best so I'm sure I'll still enjoy the game . I'll definitely buy a new army of GW miniatures as if it isn't a success for GW it'll be quietly dropped in a couple of years. Hopefully with the approach they're taking, a small number of new plastic kits and resin miniatures, their return on investment is enough with modest sales.
Only a minute and thirty eight seconds of rage? You are getting lenient in your 10th Age! I have to admit that I am one of the simpletons that resented the interruption of gameflow from the magic phase. I always wanted wizards to be able to cast through the turn as it developed and was encouraged by the hints that this may be the case. But I didn't expect a Middle Earthification of the magic system (which you foresaw). Magic here will be , like in MESBG, a gun that a character has rather than something that feels like magic with the dark implications that tapping into the forces of the universe may carry with them. I do love MESBG but magic feels decidedly unenchanting. Now as you noted we have a dice game one plays with oneself and the opponent may have to deal with relatively passively. I get my coveted ability to tactically cast through the turn stages, which in my view makes it more dynamic (and easier to use because you don't have to be chesslike about thinking through the entire turn in the magic phase) at the cost of the strategic and poker-like bit. That being said I'm in the camp of "the game is actually looking pretty darn good considering what a disaster I would have confidently bet on and will happily bring my toys out." But let us gloss over the fact that you were too merciful and Blaxill Nation was fully prepared for a call to arms!
Yes- there is much to be said for 'tapping into something' as a way of simulating the instability of sorcerous power. Tapping into the winds vs playing with oneself- an apt analogy. Overall I can't but agree that the game is better than I dated hope. Comparing to what they could have done it is in the upper decile at least of my expectationometer.
Feel the exact same way about magic. Trying to be semi reserved sense I don't know every rule but this was a bit of a kicker. I like a lot of the changes + additions made, but this one could be a deal breaker which is a real shame... Everything seemed so promising so far then this....
Still hoping for the best, and like you said if the rest of the game is great but one parts lacking might not be the end of the world. Also agree about each edition experimenting with magic phase quite a bit
I think there was a happy medium from the ‘6 dice mega spell to win the game’ and this ‘coin flip’ system. But there might be more to this system hopefully.
Yes I agree. I think the six dicing mechanic needed to be riskier vis a vis miscasts and mega spells toned down. I think those small adjustments would have got us quite close to a really really good system.
Bah, it was an elf-phase anyway, and shan't be missed. I think you are being overly nostalgic about the possibilities of the dice pool design. In reality most of that strategizing never really materialized. And instead what actually happened is people took lvl 4 wizards and threw all their dice at the big kill comets, suns and dwellers. With the smaller mages relegated to dice batteries and scroll caddies. There may have been some possibility of saving the whole dice pool thing by nerfing the big spells, but honestly I think we'll be better off with magic being more tightly integrated with the design language of other characters and units. It allows for balancing a wizard on his own merit rather than having to assume the context he's in.
I may well be, and I accept this broad thesis emerges as the sophisticated rebuttal to my take. As I wrote above to a similar comment, I tended to use the decks which did had many flexible spells. So magic phases against me were more like this, because I would literally never throw more than 4 dice at a spell. However it seems to me they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here with the change. I'd rather they nerfed some nasty spells and bought in more flexible multi context spells. The poor dice are taking the blame and the purple sun is escaping scott free from the guillotine (like the ruthless survivalist it is!)
Honestly I’m liking what I’m seeing Magic was too powerful before. It’s being made into something that can help but isn’t reliable. Close combat is the most interactive part of the game and I’m glad it’s being made into the crucial part of the game where all your manoeuvres, shooting, spells etc come together to decide a game.
@@DrBlaxill I like the idea of keeping a mage on a flying mount of some kind so that it can cast spells outside of the reach of opponents dispel. Assuming the dispelling mage has to be with range of the caster of the spell rather than it’s target.
I don't know if this semplification is for the good or for the bad. What I don't like is that mages are still too dangerous, ticking bomb going around thw field waiting to explode. I don't understand why gw likes this idea of magic. I don't want to plan my game and then have any strategy blown up because a mage detonates.
From this small excerpt on magic, it’s looking a little lite…is it possible that this is because a more fully fleshed out magic system might be delivered in expansion format at a later date?
I too am very disappointed with this decision. Honestly, I’m shocked they went this way. Hopefully the game is successful and they change this in the future, because it definitely seems we aren’t the only ones complaining, it’s been widely condemned, except by Val’s buddy Rob, who thinks everything should be as simple as possible, which disgusts me! But that’s fine, we can sacrifice him to Nurgle.
Wasn't there a classic army game - probably dating back to the very first time that soldiers began to roll little hand-carved cubes with numbers on them to place wagers with each other - called 'Odds and Evens'? Soldiers would simply place bets on whether the dice would generate an odd number or an even number, and roll 2D6. Gosh, how GW must have wished they were around back then, to grab the copyright.
You can just picture soldiers of yore huddled around campfires following a mighty battle, laughing and drinking; then someone leaps up, furious after yet another bout of ill-fortune, bellowing "By Mithras himself, it was THRICE-SCORE better in Second Edition! A pox upon Ludos Officina, may the gods spit on them!" then skulking off, to assorted mockery 😀
@@ilovecokeslurpeesyea the 7th was superior imo. Since during 6th the low level wizards were often just power banks for the big wizard. Where as in 7th the wizards could only use their own generated dices +the 2 basepool. I am a bit worried of the lack of decision making in the new system. It used to be that you can't ever cast all your spells or at least had to do hard decisions of where to allocate you dice (spread thin and try to cast many or do few but have them succeed more often). Now it seems the wizards might just be able to cast all their spells every turn.
Yes I liked the 6th and 7th magic system much more. I don't know much about the 3rd and 4th editions but those seem interesting as well. @@ilovecokeslurpees
The only thing that we don't know about the magic in the game will be character abilities and artifacts that can also add some more depth to the casting/dispelling. Armies could have sub faction rules that change how magic works.
I don't see why we can't come up with some homebrew rules for the winds of magic / power pools that we can't all use. GW used to encorage house rules. I just hope we have enough like minded people.
@@zomby138 I agree. Tournament play, and its meta, looms much larger now though than it did- which makes the official rules more totalising than they once were in the age when they were described merely as 'the springboard for better and greater things' (the Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson view).
Hope so! Looks good for them on a few fronts - leadership, armour, possibly the extra marching if it turns out to be useful, magic looking like it's weaker. There are a couple of things that look like they might go the other way though - cavalry look like they might be better than in 8th Ed and artillery is probably weaker (the stats for the TK catapult, larger base sizes if the templates stay the same, strength being decoupled from armour piercing). Perhaps Dwarfs will do well, but also have to move around more than they sometimes did?
For what I can see now, I would say that now you will simply try to cast all and any spell at any appropriate moment (and will try to dispel all the time equally), which is a massive dumbing down of things. Probably this is the reason why all the spells we have seen so far are quite meh...
@@DrBlaxill I wouldn't want it to become so toned down that eventually wizards become more a liability than a resource. As always with Warhammer, most will come down to points and army lists....
When gw decided to put whfb down I had mixed feelings. Of course it was bad in the sense of support, new models and player base, but I was somewhat relieved about not needing to replace a lot of books let alone reading a lot of new rules and adapting. More so, I would not need to deal with bad changes and the lack of needed ones. Yes, I agree, some stuff needed changing, but the way I see it, an 8.1 edition with errata and minor changes would do. Regardless, I still play the game once a week . If the base size change was not reason enough, if the mandatory and cumbersome formation changes during the game was not reason enough, now this simplified magic is the nail in the coffin. However, I still think this new game, tow, will be a good thing: A few new models here and there, player base growth and the chance of rogue tow player wanting to learn an old edition, like I´ve seen happening with aos and the chance of a future review of the rules are all good reasons to wait for it ! Good vid, and good review: Keep them coming.
Yes, you are philosophically similar to me really. I don't believe there was much wrong with 8th ed- one page of errata was sorely needed however. It's got to be a good thing whatever our pain at particular things, and it may well also increase interest in all editions of the game. As I said in the video, Warhammer is not just its current edition- it is all of them from 1983 through to now. A rising tide will lift all boats.
Games business is not a niche business anymore and the order of the day is to sell; attracting more people is easier with simple, fast rules, that makes for simple and fast games. That simple, sadly.
Magic looks so gash i probably wont take a wizard. Especially if it means i can take a fighty character. The only spells i ever worried about were the auto kill and slannesh random movment
I wonder if these simple base rules might open us up for some more detailed and characterful magic rules for individual armies in their books?
I hope so. What might be possible is an alteration to the core system of casting and dispelling in a way that encapsulated the lores. That was never part of things before. E.g. as someone mentioned above, the daemonologist rolling three dicing and picking the highest two but also opening himself up to miscasts on any double one to simulate his more reckless exposure to raw power.
Either that, getting Magic Custom Fit for the different Lores... or we get a Magic DLC, aka they sell us a Book that just does Magic in depth Later. Unfortunately either is possible nowadays :(
@@kosakuito9496what do you mean, nowadays? This has been the case multiple times throughout the history of WHFB. There has been twice where the base game had very little magic. Both 4th and 5th edition had separate magic books. I have them here on the bookshelf next to my desk in my office.
The most exciting part of the announcement is actually, I think, that the Damsels can ride pegasi. This is because Damsel on Pegasus is not a model in the GW range. So, as far as I can tell, we’re going to see GW reverse course on the directions we had seen in Sigmar and 40k and finally put the hobbyist aspect of warhammer back into the spotlight.
Or they’ll release a new model
As someone who's Damsel/Prophetess had a tendency to kill more Knights in any lance she was in than any opposing models I very much welcome this! Perhaps now she can fly around the field of battle, making a ruddy nuisance of herself, buffing and de-buffing key units to her little hearts content, whilst limiting/denying attempts for the brutish, smelly enemy to soil her lovely new dress!
Lol they are obviously going to release a model.
Part of the issue with 8e magic was that the loss of the wizard only occurred in 1/12 situations after the miscast (1/6 to get the big detonation, then 1/2 for the wizard to live/die). And miscasts were not exactly a given either, even with 6 dice.
In a lot of situations, the risk reward was worth it, especially with the big removal spells (dwellers, dreaded 13th, purple sun, etc.).
So as a result we saw a lot of 6 dicing of those spells. If the miscast table was more dangerous, we might have seen more dynamic play in the magic phase. But unless there was a big roll for winds, there was just a lot of "6 dice spell X" and then the magic phase ended - for one reason or another (out of dice, wizard died, etc.).
Agree. A key mechanic I would have added to 8th was a modification on the miscast table. Say -1 for five dicing a spell and -2 for six dicing. And a positive modifier for two dicing.
I think the other face of that very ugly coin was the rules for hordes. Too many lists were just taking a giant brick of guys 10 wide because no other infantry tactics were viable.
Earned a subscriber with this one, mate
Warhammer 4th edition magic system with the cards was the best. I used to make up my own games where we had 4 wizards on each side battling against each other. All colleges of magic represented.
Love your perspective!
I think the 2D6 makes sense. You have magic throughout all phases. It needed to be a little simpler than "a game within the game". Too early to tell for me if I'll like the change or not. But I don't blame them for getting rid of cards and pools if spell are going to be cast in every phase of the game.
I like cards. :)
To find something positive, It will at least make powerful spells harder to cast, while with dice pool one could just add more dices to it so it got the same chance as a weaker spell.
I think having spells that effects a friendly unit should be good, since it will be easier to be out of range of the enemy wizard.
Fully agree with your sceptical-but-balanced takes here. I think it's worth noting that ToW takes place in a period of the setting's history when the end times are not so close, humans haven’t studied under Teclis, and the Great War Against Chaos has not yet come, too, so maybe a less nuanced magic is suited to the kinds of stories they want the game to tell. That said, I'll probably be doing quite a lot of homebrewing!
Edit: also, very cool that they're bringing back the classic WFRP lores!
The question I have about the Miscast Table is whether the "you" in the 8-12 effects means the Wizard or the player. If it means the player, then it seems that no other Wizard would be able to cast for the rest of the turn. If a miscast was rolled in the Strategy Phase then that would really suck.
Doubt it's the player
@@dking6021 I think it is indeed you the player. The "Careless Conjuration" result says "The Wizard" takes a hit, it would make absolutely no sense to change to "you" in later results and still mean "The Wizard". Also, given the description of what happens in "Power Drain" it makes perfect sense that there is no more casting with the unnatural calmness going on for the rest of the turn.
Well if it were the player that would indeed make that roll a lot more threatening. It would be amusing for a miscast effect to be directed against yours truly. However I suspect that isn't the effect from an initial reading.
My guess is that it is the player. I think it's meant to be equivalent to the "lose D6 power dice" from the past versions, which would effect all of your wizards for the rest of that turn.
Reasonable. Im overall happy with what we've seen so far.
Hi,
Really appreciate your TOW analysis since the beginning. I am a 6th edition player so i like you going through different editions including those i barely know (8th).
I agree with you on this one too, although i might say Magic has always been a lucky phase, more than the others. Seeing magic influence reduced might be a good thing for me as i enjoy more movement and combat phases. Let’s see but yes this one is a bit disappointing as it’s over simplified indeed.
My thoughts exactly. The overall effect might still be good, even though the simplification itself is a bit disappointing.
I’m not overly bothered by it, I don’t like how lvl 4s will again be an automatic choice. At the end of the of the day, if I don’t like it, I will just use rules from a different edition.
Something to keep in mind is you can’t cast multiple hex’s or buffs on a unit, so that’s interesting. I have a feeling it’s going to be death by thousand cuts with magic rather super spells which I prefer.
I kind of like the "dueling wizard" aspect of casting and dispelling. It does favor the higher level wizard though. I will be curious how special rules and magic items will interact with spells.
Granted, my Dawi could care less about spell casting...🍺
Your runesmith might work like wizard to dispell only. Of course you might drag an anvil of doom along
Yes the dwarf players are (for a change) having a quiet pint in the corner and not joining in the ruckus in the tavern!
'what are they all on about?'
It's good to hear from someone who's thoughts so closely mirror my own.
I'm already throwing ideas around for winds of magic hosue rules. We'll need to see the full rules first though.
In the article it explicitly states that she can sit in the back rank of a unit 😊
I wish they would’ve told us whether you roll for spells known or pick.
Also, I think you’re right to point out that miscasts are going to be very rare. Assuming you have a level 4 wizards who casts four spells per turn for five turns in a row, there’s only about a 40% chance that they suffer one or more miscast over those twenty spell castings.
I think the schools having 6 spells means you will have the option (hopefully) Will certainly be choosing with my own group
Great analysis - as always 😊 (your academic background shines nicely through in your excellent analysis-skills 😊)
Perhaps you get to cast or dispel in each phase. I’m pretty sure they said both side’s wizards can cast spells in each phase.
Great video, deserves bigger audience!
We're getting there (slowing growing :-))!
Totally agree with you. I am really disappointed there’s no casting/dispel pool, and I think it could have been a cool opportunity to have that strategy broadened out over the whole phase like they have it. Do you use all you dice pool for movement? Or do you save some to swing a crucial combat on your flank? Such a weird thing to choose to simplify after the rest of the edition looks to be a worthy spiritual successor. Am open minded still, but disappointed. Thanks for the video as always!
From my perspective, the movement of wizzards will be indeed more important and difficult. I can imagine that most of our thought (or "Hirnschmalz" in german) will go into this aspect.
Honestly my biggest wish for the new game was, that it should reduce punishment for miscast and the devastating power of spells.
To often did a good/bad magic phase turn 1/2 decide a game prematurely.
Im torn between love and hate. I loved 6th ed magic system. It scaled well. I liked the winds of magic system in 8th but hated the rest of the magic phase. It also did not scale well past 2-3k pts. My biggest worry is for those armies that depend heavily on magic to succeed. Hopefully that stays. All in all im excited and cant wait for TOW
It might actually be useful to cast Storm Call on a friendly unit that's already suffering from a worse hex just to remove it.
I think where they're trying to create some sort of tactical depth is in placement, not just purely in terms of position, but also whether to have them join a unit in order to cast e.g. Glittering Robe, but risk killing half the unit with a miscast. Maybe we'll see wizards constantly leaving and joining different units?
Also, I agree, I really hope they limit the number of spells that can be cast per turn or have at least some other form of resource management...
Hello Punk!
Nice vid you got there.
I think it really is a shame that the resource management aspect is gone. I rather liked that in the few editions I got to play in the past.
Still, it's not that much of an issure to me and I'm more than willing to give it a try. But that might be because I was around for the 40k Editions you mentioned.
Although it worked a bit different, if we think of the same editions. It was just a Ld check to get your space magic of, actually dispelling something was a thing pretty much only Space Mariens got to do and a double 1 or double 6 while casting both gave you a S6 hit with no armour save. Which was especially bad for Space Elves, because that meant their Space Wizard was dead if he failed his Ward Save.
Aaanyways, I think the integration of wizards into the other phases is rather nice, but I also think this move somewhat necessitates a simplification of the resource management. A dicepool might be a bit of a hassle to keep track of when I think of how a table looks after a turn. Dice flying into your pool, units moving to where the dice are kept. A dice pool works fine for a spererate phase, but might be a bit much for a whole turn with an utterly disorganized chaos like my tables often are.
A magic card system though might have been fine and is, I think, rather intriguing. But I have no experience with that system as I started way later with Warhammer Fantasy and no idea why they didn't do that. Maybe they didn't want the players to moan about getting fleeced, as GW accessories tend to be prohibitly expensive nowadays.
What I definitely agree with is that the trade-off between risk and reward really could use some more risk. Maybe a miscast when rolling a double 6 (in that case the spell should still be cast like in 8th) could be a good start, that would at least double the risk of one occuring for each spell.
Maybe broken concentration is back in and just not mentioned in the article. It is very unlikely that this is the case, but one can hope and would make for a good house rule if it isn't in.
Also, I think Glittering Robe works with shooting and close combat, as you target their models in both phases. Nasty thing and quite good for a signature spell if I understand that right.
Snake eyes on a Fated Dispel should give you, the player, a headache.
"What I definitely agree with is that the trade-off between risk and reward really could use some more risk. Maybe a miscast when rolling a double 6 (in that case the spell should still be cast like in 8th) could be a good start, that would at least double the risk of one occurring for each spell."
I think the risk/reward thing is only interesting if there is greater risk attached to trying to cast more powerful spells so for me additional miscast risks would have to be attached to them only (can't see that being the case though). With the chance of miscast being the same (and very small) for all spells in this system reducing it entirely to blind luck it would almost be fairer to do away with it all together. I know there was always the possibility of a disastrous miscast just on two dice in the older systems, but at least it was part of a bigger more varied system.
@@ClydeMillerWynant True, it would just up the risk aspect. That may be my go-to for this system because of my experience with 40k of the 2000s. I still think it might be a step in the right direction, but you are right, it isn't really a risk-reward thing and doesn't make casting strong spells riskier than casting weaker spells.
But without having played for at least a bit with the full rules it's all just a bit of conjecture. And even then, I'm not a game designer (and doubt I'd be good one even if I tried).
@@AJKiesel Agreed! To be honest I'm much more interested in Dwarfs than in magic, but I do hope that the new system doesn't end up leaving those with more enthusiasm for magic too disappointed. As you say we need to see the whole thing anyway.
@@ClydeMillerWynant I too hope the magic system won't be too much of a disappointement. It was always fun to integrate magic in the combined arms approach of my beloved Empire. Although I vastly preferred the various buff and debuff spells to the outright killy spells that seem to have been preferred by a lot of people back then.
I don't know what I'll be doing armywise in Old World. Empire and Wood Elves I already played in WHFB. I do like the armies and I already own them, but I always wanted to build more armies even back then. Maybe I'll have a look which character models come back for the Dwaves, the older I get the more I can identify myself with the "Old Grumblers". :D
@@AJKiesel "Although I vastly preferred the various buff and debuff spells" - what we've seen from the new game so far sounds like this is what much of the magic will be about so no change for you then!
I only really like old models (up to about 1992). Dwarfs are what I mostly have so that's what I hope to play. Would love to be able to field Orcs and Goblins or Skaven, but though I have quite a lot of the former and a few of the latter it's nowhere near enough for an army in either case and the old models are prohibitively expensive. I could sort of just about do Chaos Warriors with what I've got, but though I love the models I don't really like much else about them.
I’m so excited to play with this magic system
Seems like a sensible, but kinda drab, system.
On paper, haveing wizard movements, a more "in game mechanic" be more important than a separate "meta game mechanic" of cards or dice being horded or spent is interesting. But you pointed out that we already had that so there is that...
When I read the article I also perked up about the range of dispels. Thats realy quite nice.
And ofc you can get neuances in via army rules.
A staff that gives +6" range to dispel.
A battle banner that gives another "free" dispel atempt.
Chaos or demonologists useing unfettered powers. Roll 3 dice, pick the two best to cast. BUT still count all 1s towards misscast. And any double 1s still see the spell fail.
Also? Roll 3d6 and pick the lowest two to see which results you get on the table.
Yes, there is the possibility to vary the actual casting mechanic to simulate army/lore differences and magic items. That might serve to make the system a little less drab.
@@DrBlaxill Will be very interesting to see Tomb Kings for instance.
I never bought nor fought them way back when. But I remeber them haveing vastly different mechanics
I'm assuming that there will be faction spell list too
We've already seen that Tomb Kinds have their own spell lore, so yes.
A great and balanced discussion, as always - well done, highly appreciated! I share your concerns concerning "TOW sounds great overall... just that simplified magic might throw a wrench in the machine" ... but we have to wait and let it play out for a bit I think. I remain mostly positive and am grateful for Warhammer returning, which is the most important thing anyway.
P.S.: Once again skipping your "voice acting", which I consider pretty cringe as the kids say these days. ;)
The coppers will never take me.
If we assume some faction specific lore will be available in the faction rules... can someone figure out why waaagh magic is in the core rules ? Could it be chosen by multiple factions ?
I've been wondering if this is the right assumption to make. Seems logical that there will be something for Tomb Kings, but their book will be available straight away - is Waaagh magic just in the main rules because the O&G book won't be immediately available? Putting it in the main rules maybe means all the core factions' magic will be covered by the initial releases.
Which other armies can't really function without their own magic? Assuming 'Necromancy' is Vampires, I guess that leaves Skaven and Ogres? Maybe lores for each Chaos God, but could perhaps imagine them doing without those to start with?
Maybe also hobgoblins in chaos dwarf armies? Although AFAIK that'd be new and thus the sort of expansion in unit choices to be expected in an army book, not just a Ravening Hordes style list. That said, they might be future-proofing the core book for when the narrative/release schedule gets around to supporting chaos dwarfs etc., too.
Here we go! 😎🤘
Great breakdown! I look forward to these videos a lot. 😎🤘 Army ideas are brewing in my head. It'll be so great to have a Fantasy back. 😁👌
I get what you're saying, it's definitely not as much of a game-within-a-game. I like the simplified version myself. Thanks for posting!
Magic seems fine.
Perhaps they made the magic casting very simple to keep the game flowing when spells are available in multiple phases
I think that is what I have resolved to optimistically think- that the loss of crunchy complexity might be worth it for the overall gains. Although I still am unsure what the gains will be- will have to play to find out.
I do kinda miss the idea of magic being almost a mini-game like in 4th and others. The Power cards system really was fun!
That said, I must say I like the principle/core idea of the magic in the game being integrated and woven into each stage of the game rather than a bespoke phase just for itself. I think the potential is there for some really tactical play, even if it is a bit simplified compared to magic of old. I also wonder if this is perhaps in part precisely due to magic being a bit more frequent throughout the whole turn? As they say, this magic system is certainly going to be quick to use. Whether that is worth the trade off of some granularity and flavour we will have to see.
My assumption (though we all know what they do!) would be that each army will have some sort of layer they place over this base system - perhaps undead would get bonus' to cast (or more powerful effects) for the amount of Necromancers they have, or, say, Wood Elves could gain similar for the amount of woodland terrain they control, and there may be options to have places of power on the table to contest that do similar - that sort of thing.
I agree that there should be risks inherent in casting spells - meddling with such dark and obscure power should have threat to body, mind and soul! I'm also hoping for a really interesting magic item system. I was interested to see the confirmation it's pre-collegiate. True, the colleges are awesome, but this is at least an opportunity to explore some other things, and I'm sure they'll get to the Colleges in time (perhaps an edition or so down the line). If they are truly expanding the setting to include Cathay and things like that, then they are going to have to expand into new "colleges" and lores to account for entirely new cultures and schools of magic and magical philosophy which they might be able to explore to a degree with these core lores.
Overall, I feel like magic (at least at first in this first official return to the Old World) is looking like being a bit milder and less directly impactful than in previous editions. More of a support element than a major one (not to say it won't have the potential to be decisive to a battle, but looks like it will perhaps not be a cataclysmic, nor have the raw power it did). Disappointing in some aspects, but I can appreciate the intent (even if not fully the implementation) behind the design - certainly troop choice and use and things like movement and positioning will probably be the focus, and that's no terrible thing. Looking forward to seeing some of these Universal special rules next!
EDIT - the thought also occurs that magic can still be dangerous in it's compound effects - that is to say why individually the spells are perhaps a little de-fanged compared to previous editions, if you get a spell off in every phase that could add up to quite a lot of in-game impact. Especially if all the spells are on one unit - if you, say, have a spell that pulls a unit out of position or into a charge arc in the movement phase, (and also cast a movement bonus spell on your own troops to try and put the charge beyond doubt) blast the dragged unit in the shooting phase to soften it up with a fireball (as well as actual shooting), can get a hex debuff off on the unit AND buff the unit that charges it, that's a lot of factors that can compound into massive results - in this regard the strategy of the maguc phase might be in correctly guessing what your opponent is really trying to set up for with a selection of fairly mild spells, and what are decoys/magical feints.
Magic does seem a lot toned down, I think it’s perhaps for the best. Get the game on its feet and popular and in three- four years we will get a new edition and magic will probably get more nuanced. We just need to breathe life into the game and show GW that it is viable so they throw support behind it.
I broadly agree. The big picture remains broadly unchanged, which I always try not to lose sight of. Even something as integral as magic is window dressing compared to actually having a game and the support of GW.
@DrBlaxill I'd also like to point out that popular modern reinventions of the WHFB concept (Kings of War, OnePageRules, Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings, etc) also feature highly toned down magic, and they still seem quite popular despite that. Given that 40k 10th edition seems to be liberally borrowing concepts from such contemporaries, it seems likely that this is GW reading the proverbial room.
I like to assume that Dr Blaxill resides in the Dark Future setting and only lectures us when he’s fought off fuel raiders and found a safe place to park.
Well I spunked my creds on a new vibrobox and gave them the slip, but had to lay low till Friday.
I guess power dice weren't denture friendly enough.
Initial thoughts were oh, its not what I hoped they'd do. After previous glimpses into the mechanics I expected some kind of blended rules echoing the fun of former magic styles but no, its just a dice off. Ah well, perhaps its a reflection of the timeline where the magic cat isn't out the bag enough or magic that permeates the world isnt completely tapped into yet, or its simply easier because its new edition and not everyone buying it is a longbeard with many campaigns under their belt. I'll be interested to see how its plays out, perhaps the magic items available will make me more willing to throw my magical scholar into the fray, after all it takes so long to educate them.
One thing I'm sure about though, the elves and the slann must be putting on their best poker faces and playing dumb, we all know theyre capable of miracles.
Did it actually say how many casting and dispel attempts you can make in a turn? Tactically saving your dispel attempts might be the only tactical nuance we get.
Yes. They don't say that, no. It's the only modification I can see that is likely to change my view of the system. Although the broader question of what the game is like with this system incorporated will only be discovered by playing the game.
@@DrBlaxill totally agree that it's something that I don't feel I can pass judgment on until I see it in action.
Wait and see. I want to see how this flows first before i pass judgement. But i guess where would be the fun in that?
Yes. That philosophy could be applied sensibly to many things in life. But we love a hot take!
I find this somewhat disappointing, I must say. I really enjoyed the old magic system. Learning on the fly how cunning your opponents could be with magic. Try to plot out what spells they were orchestrating so you could mitigate, or outright shutdown, their sinister plans. Or the reverse, where you're the one attempting to bait your opponent. It actually made me evolve my armies to incorporate more magic users, to the point my hordes of chaos army went from undivided to fully dedicated to Tzeentch
I pivoted towards Heavens and Slaanrsh decks for exactly that reason. Not because they were the most powerful but because they were the most flexible and allowed me to use more spells in more contexts- which could gave me the edge in the mind game
I think I agree. It's dissapointing to see it so simplified, especially given how interesting a lot of the other announced changes have been. If they wanted magic to be much less prominent, there are many ways I can think of to give it less of a focus instead of gutting it so completely. Dialling back the power level of every spell seems an obvious one, as does reducing their range to require the wizard to be in more danger (which they've done). That said I also agree it's not the end of the (old) world, as some other changes (magic resistance) seem very interesting, as do the other changes we've seen. In the worst case scenario I guess I can just house-rule using my preferred magic system at home anyway.
Doc HULKING OUT
I will miss the ability to throw just 1 die to avoid the possibility to miscast altogether. Spamming invocation of Nehek with a group of level 2 necromancers and a Mortis Engine behind with 1 die each was one of my favorite tricks. Now it seems kind of pointless when the opponent will always have something to dispel with.
If they don't have any wizards in range then they'll have very little to dispel with. I'm also not entirely sure there won't be a limit on how many times a wizard can dispel in a phase/turn even if they do have one in range.
I liked that too. Mono Tzeentch horror blue fire spam was another variation of that.
I've never understood this "simple and fast" concept. If I am doing something I like doing I prefer it to not be quickly over. So strange
I think it's just market speak. They also used the term 'modern' in a previous announcements. Nobody plays fantasy because it's quick, simple, or modern. There are many other options in the tapestry of life that are all of those things- Warhammer Fantasy is not one of them!
@@DrBlaxill I concur. In the 40k world people bang on about a game being quicker all the time. Soon it will be.
Step 1: set up models
Step 2: players roll off
Step 3: the player that rolls the highest wins
Step 4: pack up and go home
Also I have been really digging your in depth vids, they are great
I get what you're saying, but consider the other side of the coin. There's definitely such a thing as being too slow and complicated, and that has consequences. Very long games can be great fun, but they also make it harder to find time to play. Dozens of complex rules can add depth, but they don't always add enough to justify the added time and brainpower spent. Plus, the more complex it is, the more intimidating it is to learn. I can testify that trying to understand charge arcs, fire arcs, and unit commands were a major obstacle to me getting into WHFB. If you demand the game take 4 hours and require a college course to understand, then you're going to have a fiercely difficult time growing the playerbase. I think we need to focus on smaller, more accessible games to help introduce players to the parts of playing Warhammer that are actually enjoyable. I can testify that introductory games we're crucial to getting me hooked.
The issue with the resource pool approach that you describe is that 8th edition magic was "solved" to a large extent. Your description of 6th/7th/8th edition was generous. The situation on the battlefield coupled with the spells available meant that 90% of the time both players knew which spells to cast and try to dispel as the other spells would have little impact on the game. The only real variable with knowledgeable players was the power pool in 8th. So I dispute your statement that 6th/7th/8th was as interactive as you suggest.
I like your point about battlefield context. Indeed, I found myself gravitating to two lores with the most flexible spells- slaanesh and heavens which could have a multitude of effects in different situations and so I very seldom had to throw many dice at spells and could keep my opponent guessing. However I'd suggest that the monodimensionality of some of the other lores was the fault of the spell writing rather than the magic system itself, and that the principle of resource management was a contributor to what was good about the system, imperfect as it was.
I agree the spell decks were a significant contributor to how the magic phase ended up. You did mention that Magic won't feel different and I agree. This year I started playing 10th edition 40k (the last time I played 40k was during the Rogue Trader era, yes I'm that old) and the psychic fireballs or plague wind don't feel any different to shooting so you're point is well made. Still I only find time to play once per month at best so I'm sure I'll still enjoy the game . I'll definitely buy a new army of GW miniatures as if it isn't a success for GW it'll be quietly dropped in a couple of years. Hopefully with the approach they're taking, a small number of new plastic kits and resin miniatures, their return on investment is enough with modest sales.
Best use for Storm Call is probably to cast on your own units to remove enemy hexes considering how useless it is otherwise
I suspect that won't even be an option, because "hex" spells will require an enemy unit as the target.
It's a good idea though!
Yes, that was what I initially thought but see @zomby138 's comment below
Only a minute and thirty eight seconds of rage? You are getting lenient in your 10th Age! I have to admit that I am one of the simpletons that resented the interruption of gameflow from the magic phase. I always wanted wizards to be able to cast through the turn as it developed and was encouraged by the hints that this may be the case. But I didn't expect a Middle Earthification of the magic system (which you foresaw). Magic here will be , like in MESBG, a gun that a character has rather than something that feels like magic with the dark implications that tapping into the forces of the universe may carry with them. I do love MESBG but magic feels decidedly unenchanting. Now as you noted we have a dice game one plays with oneself and the opponent may have to deal with relatively passively. I get my coveted ability to tactically cast through the turn stages, which in my view makes it more dynamic (and easier to use because you don't have to be chesslike about thinking through the entire turn in the magic phase) at the cost of the strategic and poker-like bit. That being said I'm in the camp of "the game is actually looking pretty darn good considering what a disaster I would have confidently bet on and will happily bring my toys out." But let us gloss over the fact that you were too merciful and Blaxill Nation was fully prepared for a call to arms!
Yes- there is much to be said for 'tapping into something' as a way of simulating the instability of sorcerous power. Tapping into the winds vs playing with oneself- an apt analogy.
Overall I can't but agree that the game is better than I dated hope. Comparing to what they could have done it is in the upper decile at least of my expectationometer.
HELMET SECURED DR. BLAXILL! PUNKS AT THE READY!
Feel the exact same way about magic. Trying to be semi reserved sense I don't know every rule but this was a bit of a kicker. I like a lot of the changes + additions made, but this one could be a deal breaker which is a real shame... Everything seemed so promising so far then this....
Still hoping for the best, and like you said if the rest of the game is great but one parts lacking might not be the end of the world. Also agree about each edition experimenting with magic phase quite a bit
It seems like a sensible choice for the 1st edition of this game.
I agree that it's important to remember that it is the first edition of something. It isn't forever.
I think there was a happy medium from the ‘6 dice mega spell to win the game’ and this ‘coin flip’ system. But there might be more to this system hopefully.
Yes I agree. I think the six dicing mechanic needed to be riskier vis a vis miscasts and mega spells toned down. I think those small adjustments would have got us quite close to a really really good system.
I think you are missing this happens over the whole turn. I think it might be a grand change. 30 + year WFB vet here.
Exactly what happens over a whole turn? Im missing some key context
He means that Magic isn't restricted to one phase anymore and is now cast during the various other phases. @@Ultr4l0f
Bah, it was an elf-phase anyway, and shan't be missed.
I think you are being overly nostalgic about the possibilities of the dice pool design. In reality most of that strategizing never really materialized. And instead what actually happened is people took lvl 4 wizards and threw all their dice at the big kill comets, suns and dwellers. With the smaller mages relegated to dice batteries and scroll caddies.
There may have been some possibility of saving the whole dice pool thing by nerfing the big spells, but honestly I think we'll be better off with magic being more tightly integrated with the design language of other characters and units. It allows for balancing a wizard on his own merit rather than having to assume the context he's in.
I may well be, and I accept this broad thesis emerges as the sophisticated rebuttal to my take. As I wrote above to a similar comment, I tended to use the decks which did had many flexible spells. So magic phases against me were more like this, because I would literally never throw more than 4 dice at a spell.
However it seems to me they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here with the change. I'd rather they nerfed some nasty spells and bought in more flexible multi context spells. The poor dice are taking the blame and the purple sun is escaping scott free from the guillotine (like the ruthless survivalist it is!)
Honestly I’m liking what I’m seeing Magic was too powerful before. It’s being made into something that can help but isn’t reliable. Close combat is the most interactive part of the game and I’m glad it’s being made into the crucial part of the game where all your manoeuvres, shooting, spells etc come together to decide a game.
I agree that the effect of the changes might still be good overall, even though I dislike the method in this instance.
@@DrBlaxill I like the idea of keeping a mage on a flying mount of some kind so that it can cast spells outside of the reach of opponents dispel. Assuming the dispelling mage has to be with range of the caster of the spell rather than it’s target.
I don't know if this semplification is for the good or for the bad. What I don't like is that mages are still too dangerous, ticking bomb going around thw field waiting to explode. I don't understand why gw likes this idea of magic. I don't want to plan my game and then have any strategy blown up because a mage detonates.
From this small excerpt on magic, it’s looking a little lite…is it possible that this is because a more fully fleshed out magic system might be delivered in expansion format at a later date?
We can hope, but I wouldn't assume so. There might be faction specific rules which might make it more interesting perhaps though.
It's called a car park, mate.
yes- an involuntary Americanism on my part!
Hypeee
I too am very disappointed with this decision. Honestly, I’m shocked they went this way.
Hopefully the game is successful and they change this in the future, because it definitely seems we aren’t the only ones complaining, it’s been widely condemned, except by Val’s buddy Rob, who thinks everything should be as simple as possible, which disgusts me! But that’s fine, we can sacrifice him to Nurgle.
Wasn't there a classic army game - probably dating back to the very first time that soldiers began to roll little hand-carved cubes with numbers on them to place wagers with each other - called 'Odds and Evens'? Soldiers would simply place bets on whether the dice would generate an odd number or an even number, and roll 2D6.
Gosh, how GW must have wished they were around back then, to grab the copyright.
Back to the classic!
You can just picture soldiers of yore huddled around campfires following a mighty battle, laughing and drinking; then someone leaps up, furious after yet another bout of ill-fortune, bellowing "By Mithras himself, it was THRICE-SCORE better in Second Edition! A pox upon Ludos Officina, may the gods spit on them!" then skulking off, to assorted mockery 😀
@@abnon-tha3088 Indeed! think I have been saying similar for years- in manner of speaking.
Spells like Steed of Shadows, if they exist may become more attractive, to get a wizard out of combat.
And allow him to operate independently which would take away most of the bad miscast effects
Such a funny guy!
Atleast the new magic system seems more consistent. I hated the randomness and swingyness of 8th ed
6th and 7th did not have the swingyness of 8th and there was still resource management.
Although I feel that 2d6 winds of magic dice meant you weren’t forced to take level 4 wizards.
@@ilovecokeslurpeesyea the 7th was superior imo. Since during 6th the low level wizards were often just power banks for the big wizard. Where as in 7th the wizards could only use their own generated dices +the 2 basepool.
I am a bit worried of the lack of decision making in the new system. It used to be that you can't ever cast all your spells or at least had to do hard decisions of where to allocate you dice (spread thin and try to cast many or do few but have them succeed more often). Now it seems the wizards might just be able to cast all their spells every turn.
@@cmxpiipl yes. It seems to me like an automatic gearbox magic system
Yes I liked the 6th and 7th magic system much more. I don't know much about the 3rd and 4th editions but those seem interesting as well. @@ilovecokeslurpees
The only thing that we don't know about the magic in the game will be character abilities and artifacts that can also add some more depth to the casting/dispelling. Armies could have sub faction rules that change how magic works.
Yes. Let's hope that adds a layer of nuance to these core proceedings.
I would love to see a pool/card system spread across the turns.
That was also my hope, but it's confirmed now we're not getting that :-(
Might send em a letter asking for an alternative for experienced gamers 👀
I don't see why we can't come up with some homebrew rules for the winds of magic / power pools that we can't all use. GW used to encorage house rules. I just hope we have enough like minded people.
@@stefanthomas4868Yes! With the old strapline (from Slaves to Darkness) 'Intended for mature readers'
@@zomby138 I agree. Tournament play, and its meta, looms much larger now though than it did- which makes the official rules more totalising than they once were in the age when they were described merely as 'the springboard for better and greater things' (the Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson view).
Time to start a Dwarf army hey?
Hope so! Looks good for them on a few fronts - leadership, armour, possibly the extra marching if it turns out to be useful, magic looking like it's weaker. There are a couple of things that look like they might go the other way though - cavalry look like they might be better than in 8th Ed and artillery is probably weaker (the stats for the TK catapult, larger base sizes if the templates stay the same, strength being decoupled from armour piercing). Perhaps Dwarfs will do well, but also have to move around more than they sometimes did?
A rare renegade chump rant by Blaxhill. The old magic system was slow, boring and not as tactical as he tries to pimp it.
8th Ed magic was such fun. 😢
Yeah, but…Chicken Dinner!
What about for US DWARF PLAYERS?!!!
100% agree doc
For what I can see now, I would say that now you will simply try to cast all and any spell at any appropriate moment (and will try to dispel all the time equally), which is a massive dumbing down of things. Probably this is the reason why all the spells we have seen so far are quite meh...
Yes, that's my concern. That magic moves from a manual to an automatic gearbox.
@@DrBlaxill I wouldn't want it to become so toned down that eventually wizards become more a liability than a resource. As always with Warhammer, most will come down to points and army lists....
When gw decided to put whfb down I had mixed feelings. Of course it was bad in the sense of support, new models and player base, but I was somewhat relieved about not needing to replace a lot of books let alone reading a lot of new rules and adapting. More so, I would not need to deal with bad changes and the lack of needed ones. Yes, I agree, some stuff needed changing, but the way I see it, an 8.1 edition with errata and minor changes would do. Regardless, I still play the game once a week .
If the base size change was not reason enough, if the mandatory and cumbersome formation changes during the game was not reason enough, now this simplified magic is the nail in the coffin. However, I still think this new game, tow, will be a good thing: A few new models here and there, player base growth and the chance of rogue tow player wanting to learn an old edition, like I´ve seen happening with aos and the chance of a future review of the rules are all good reasons to wait for it !
Good vid, and good review: Keep them coming.
Yes, you are philosophically similar to me really. I don't believe there was much wrong with 8th ed- one page of errata was sorely needed however.
It's got to be a good thing whatever our pain at particular things, and it may well also increase interest in all editions of the game. As I said in the video, Warhammer is not just its current edition- it is all of them from 1983 through to now. A rising tide will lift all boats.
Games business is not a niche business anymore and the order of the day is to sell; attracting more people is easier with simple, fast rules, that makes for simple and fast games. That simple, sadly.
Magic looks so gash i probably wont take a wizard. Especially if it means i can take a fighty character. The only spells i ever worried about were the auto kill and slannesh random movment
Top commentary. Not a fan of this magic either.
R slurs aren’t cool mate
To whom are you speaking?
Go cry somewhere else
Yeah, lame.. Just play 6th Ed, it is better anyways.
You literally don't know this until you've played a few games of tow