Like you said, M+ is simply too hard to the point it’s too stressful and not fun. People play games to zone out, forget real life and have a good time. I think the solution isn’t as complicated as people make. Make lower to mid keys easier and keep high keys just as hard, maybe even harder for the “git gud” crowd. I mean why the hell are there one shot mechanics in low and mid keys? 50% of the player base doesn’t even attempt a +2 and people think the system is ok?
@ it obviously is when you look at the stats. Why would I do M0? Im doing 10s rn and can still acknowledge for most people that have lives it’s too hard. “You want free loot?”Don’t straw-man me like a child. Since you seem like the ones who want to push keys, I said to keep those higher keys the same in terms of difficulty, possibly make it even harder. Why then are you crying?
I am not doing M+ because of players being toxic, and alot have to change with the system if i shall do M+. I enjoy delves, I have done all delves at 11 (solo), and do hope that blizzard make delves system so you can make them harder (could be affixes or something els) and ofc get bigger/better rewards out of it. I really dont have any reason to do delves 11 anymore (I know you have some reason in season 2), after I have done all delves at 11 and one of them without dying. I do 4 delves at tier 8 each day, and world quests also help me (via crests) so I can upgrade my gear. I am currently 623 ilvl.
On the topic of LFR, there's a reason it's got such low participation, especially this expansion, and the answer is simple, delves. LFR gear is comparatively so bad (and RNG), and you progress past it so fast, it's barely worth doing beyond the first 2-ish weeks. And once you can consistently do +8 delves, there's no point in doing either heroic dungeons or LFR. You do 8 delves at +8 and you're done for the week. M+ isn't worth the time investment to get into groups deal with the elitism ,the IO nonsense and add-ons, etc. You know what I do once I've finished my 4 delves? (yes 4, because I can't be bothered to do the full 8 anymore since I'm full 619) I'm leveling a character on anniversary and doing dungeons in cata. I'd rather put up with a pug raid in Firelands than do one M+.
I commented on another video, saying that instead of making a new achievement just tie the no more key depletion should be tied with KSM and b the channel owner said "you should not have any issues with anything below a 12"...
Either remove key depletion OR have raids deplete. Watch fhe top 1% get super pissed when they have to redo a whole heroic raid after they wipe more than 5 times on a single mythic boss.
@Robin...222 everyone gets really mad at depletes in m+. That's part of the toxicity. That was my point. You're maybe just too dense to see that. There should be no deplete for anyone.
Timer would determine whether or not you upgrade the key. Duh. What happens when you horrible fail a raid boss? You just try again. It's the same concept.
im a frost dk and im 630 at the time of me writing this and i now JUST HIT 2509 but this season has been the worst/ most difficult, just declined non stop so many times even though FDK is supposedly meta, trying to get into level 4's very early felt like people only wanted those with 2K ratings joining!
i have been healing since M+ legion, and mostly pugging. I have quit s1 TWW. It was highly stressful, and too many people were uncoordinated and unprepared, and by the time people had a feel of the pushing 12 bracket everyone else was already burnt out. There was nothing to que for. As a healer it shouldnt be easier in a 13-15 with DPS melting everything, than in that terrible bracket of pushing 12s. It shouldnt be that much work, when later on i can just drop a heal here and dps there no worries.
Interesting topic. I’d have more said raiders vs open world players. I find it funny that Blizzard seemed to try to give casuals more content and make some quality of life changes that make us happy (I’m a casual btw) but then they fall right back into their regular BAU business model. Not that there’s anything wrong with that but I find it amusing. I don’t really do dungeons or raids, I’d do more delves and follower dungeons but I only have so much time that I can sink into a game. Not complaining just stating. I am happy with what I get out of the game and that is all I can really ask. Though being a marksman hunter main hearing that the hunter pet may be removed might be a deal breaker and I look for a new pastime. Oh well everyone makes their choices.
On top of everything, I just feel like Retail is loaded with unnecessary complexity and inelegant design. If you want to add depth, that requires a certain amount of complexity to also be added, but complexity doesn't always add depth. That alone is daunting to players... think of how much work goes into answering a question like "what is my rotation" in the current version of the game compared to previous versions. That is going to turn lots of people off, especially when we get to talking about the term "casual." Terms like "casual" and "hardcore" are nebulous and come with a lot of baggage of connotations. In reality, the ONLY thing that the distinction tells you for certain is how much TIME some one has. There are people without a lot of time who want difficult content, and there are people with lots of time who can't do that difficult content. So when we are just looking at it as difficulty we are ignoring the other dimensions of time investment and how much complexity players are willing to deal with. We are at the point now where guilds are making the equivalent of newgrounds flash games to teach people raid mechanics given how complicated it all is. There are some people who don't mind difficulty in execution but who won't want to jump through hoops to deal with that much complexity.
Looking at how there are SO many mechanics that defy the White Script of established player abilities running now in NPC scripts all I see is Plot Armor and Plot Weapons/Abilities that require you to be one of the best players as you have to be able to move out of range or LoS in circumstances where it wouldn't be expected and actually be difficult to do if not outright impossible. Devs need to learn how to create more diverse abilities instead of whine about diversity in the dev team. And those abilities should work properly with the established scripts of the abilities in-game.
As a casual that's been playing since Vanilla. I just started to touch Mythic and I don't like it, the juice isn't worth the squeeze so I'll never see Mythic+. It's all good it's by choice, my sweatlodge is PVP
The biggest thing they forget if we gear out alot of us will move on to our alts. It's not just you I broke 2600+ io but only a couple of my usual running mates we able to break 2200... it suck because alot of my friends are out because they qoute can't live on the game. Reality is it ypu make it to hard people just won't play. We've got to a point where 60% of people in keys ain't great and the 20 button rotations
honestly gearing and collecting gear to power up is a fundamental flaw in game design because no matter how hard you try there will always be the best gear for your character that you have to do a chore list to collect.
Any game with a competitive element will become elitist at some point. People who are exceptionally good at video games normally don’t have a lot else going for them so their skill in games becomes the metric by which they validate their worth as a human being. Blizzard should curb the most toxic of the behaviors but to completely eliminate it they would have to make wow so incredibly easy that it wouldn’t be worth playing.
You sound a little resentful of players who are better than you. Surely there are some trust fund kids who can do whatever they want who are gods at the game, but there's always people like me who are just quick to pick up games and improve. Who put effort into improving. I have other things going on with my life, but I can still get cutting edge when I play. Still knock out my +10s. Still hit 95th+ percentile parses on at least half the fights in a raid.
The game should be made for casual players who just wanna have fun.. you shouldn't be flipping out from 1 mistake or 1 death.. wow is causing mental illness in a lot of people. The higher your Ilvl, the more chances are that you have achieved higher levels of mental illness
Causal players don't want mythic plus. Mythic plus doesn't even sound fun and people are always saying how much they don't like it so I am not even interested. Also having some elitist rating system is further keeps me from even wanting to try and pug
What people like about m+ is the challenge, and the ability to get good gear from dungeons and bis ilvl gear from vault. The timer is what people hate. If it wasn't timed, people would like it, I bet.
We have 2 easy raid difficulties for casuals (LFR, NHC) and 1 where they can progress and everyone realisticly can get ahead of the curve ; the M+ mount so the main reward of M+ got lowered to 2000 rating which is basicly nothing and the "best" reward imo for pvp the elite set is also for 1800 rating which is again super achieveable. Also casuals got a solo/small group activity with delves that gives rediculous rewards. So i would say 99% of the game is made for casuals. The fact that someone thinks that isnt the case is again : rediculous. I would say its a wonder that the elitist playerbase still exists cause there are no rewards in m+ between the mount and the 0,01% title, same goes for mythic raiding if you arent like the top 0,5% that clears mythic raid you are probadly gonna stuck at 4/8 or 6/8 til the end of the season and again the same goes for pvp you are either a top30% player that unlocks their elite set or a 0,5% player that gets gladiator no rewards between. I would argue that the part of the community that gets treated the worst als these between top 0,1% of the player and top 25-30% of the players base. elitist players got their goodies and casuals got TONS of goodies
Well said. Exactly my thoughts. I don’t even play as much because there’s no gameplay. It’s a transmog and mount collectible game now. The end. There’s literally nothing to do unless you’re trying to push highest level (gladiator or 10+ keys) and at this point, there’s no reason to push
A wow player completely missing the point? Say it ain't so. It takes skill to completely ignore the point and woosh like this. Congrats, you're a special one.
As a super casual player (plays like twice a week for 3-4 hours), I totally agree with you. I am able to level up gear to mythic and can still get tons of rewards. Some people just like to bitch just to bitch.
btw idk what elite you talking half of players dont have half skills on bars play like low level AI bot thats the try and if tell him way not interrupt or way not use stun or cc start to cry you are toxic i will report you :D
This is a game where back in the day the website you used to get good was called "elitest jerks" people need to either accept that they are dogshit or learn the game to get better
Like you said, M+ is simply too hard to the point it’s too stressful and not fun. People play games to zone out, forget real life and have a good time.
I think the solution isn’t as complicated as people make. Make lower to mid keys easier and keep high keys just as hard, maybe even harder for the “git gud” crowd. I mean why the hell are there one shot mechanics in low and mid keys?
50% of the player base doesn’t even attempt a +2 and people think the system is ok?
M+ isnt that hard. Just do mythic 0 you dont need to do mythic +. Its like saying mythic raiding is to hard. You want free loot?
@ it obviously is when you look at the stats. Why would I do M0? Im doing 10s rn and can still acknowledge for most people that have lives it’s too hard.
“You want free loot?”Don’t straw-man me like a child.
Since you seem like the ones who want to push keys, I said to keep those higher keys the same in terms of difficulty, possibly make it even harder. Why then are you crying?
+ some puzzles should be option in this mess of m+
I am not doing M+ because of players being toxic, and alot have to change with the system if i shall do M+. I enjoy delves, I have done all delves at 11 (solo), and do hope that blizzard make delves system so you can make them harder (could be affixes or something els) and ofc get bigger/better rewards out of it. I really dont have any reason to do delves 11 anymore (I know you have some reason in season 2), after I have done all delves at 11 and one of them without dying. I do 4 delves at tier 8 each day, and world quests also help me (via crests) so I can upgrade my gear. I am currently 623 ilvl.
I have like 6 classic alts on the anniversary round and I haven’t had this much fun with WoW since MoP
On the topic of LFR, there's a reason it's got such low participation, especially this expansion, and the answer is simple, delves.
LFR gear is comparatively so bad (and RNG), and you progress past it so fast, it's barely worth doing beyond the first 2-ish weeks.
And once you can consistently do +8 delves, there's no point in doing either heroic dungeons or LFR. You do 8 delves at +8 and you're done for the week.
M+ isn't worth the time investment to get into groups deal with the elitism ,the IO nonsense and add-ons, etc.
You know what I do once I've finished my 4 delves? (yes 4, because I can't be bothered to do the full 8 anymore since I'm full 619)
I'm leveling a character on anniversary and doing dungeons in cata. I'd rather put up with a pug raid in Firelands than do one M+.
Yessss, exactly right.
I'm casual as heck and theres tons of fun stuff for me to do. I can upgrade my gear from just doing that stuff.
As I become a more experienced player I come to realize that mythic level gear is useless and mythic dungeons aren't worth the stress.
I commented on another video, saying that instead of making a new achievement just tie the no more key depletion should be tied with KSM and b the channel owner said "you should not have any issues with anything below a 12"...
Button bloat is the main reason I can’t bring new people.
20 fingers in hands and feets.... You can do This.
Mommys and dadds dont make players like in the past...
Come on let's be honest most players just use gaming mice that auto click or use add-ons that macro everything on one button.
For real i have 30-40 keybinds to think about during active combat
Either remove key depletion OR have raids deplete. Watch fhe top 1% get super pissed when they have to redo a whole heroic raid after they wipe more than 5 times on a single mythic boss.
Lol i think everyone get mad with raid deplete. Not only the 1% you have a really bad take
@Robin...222 everyone gets really mad at depletes in m+. That's part of the toxicity. That was my point. You're maybe just too dense to see that. There should be no deplete for anyone.
@leoSpaceman2012 whats the point of the timer in the keys if keys dont get depleted when u horribly fail in them ?
Timer would determine whether or not you upgrade the key. Duh. What happens when you horrible fail a raid boss? You just try again. It's the same concept.
@@XAn0nymousX0 exactly! Reward success! Don't overly punish failure. That's how it works for raids. That's how it should work for m+
im a frost dk and im 630 at the time of me writing this and i now JUST HIT 2509 but this season has been the worst/ most difficult, just declined non stop so many times even though FDK is supposedly meta, trying to get into level 4's very early felt like people only wanted those with 2K ratings joining!
I'm average ilvl 612 and probably would try HC raid but not mythic. What if blizzard add mythic plus into raids? That would be great for elite players
i have been healing since M+ legion, and mostly pugging. I have quit s1 TWW. It was highly stressful, and too many people were uncoordinated and unprepared, and by the time people had a feel of the pushing 12 bracket everyone else was already burnt out. There was nothing to que for. As a healer it shouldnt be easier in a 13-15 with DPS melting everything, than in that terrible bracket of pushing 12s. It shouldnt be that much work, when later on i can just drop a heal here and dps there no worries.
Interesting topic. I’d have more said raiders vs open world players. I find it funny that Blizzard seemed to try to give casuals more content and make some quality of life changes that make us happy (I’m a casual btw) but then they fall right back into their regular BAU business model. Not that there’s anything wrong with that but I find it amusing. I don’t really do dungeons or raids, I’d do more delves and follower dungeons but I only have so much time that I can sink into a game. Not complaining just stating. I am happy with what I get out of the game and that is all I can really ask. Though being a marksman hunter main hearing that the hunter pet may be removed might be a deal breaker and I look for a new pastime. Oh well everyone makes their choices.
On top of everything, I just feel like Retail is loaded with unnecessary complexity and inelegant design. If you want to add depth, that requires a certain amount of complexity to also be added, but complexity doesn't always add depth. That alone is daunting to players... think of how much work goes into answering a question like "what is my rotation" in the current version of the game compared to previous versions. That is going to turn lots of people off, especially when we get to talking about the term "casual."
Terms like "casual" and "hardcore" are nebulous and come with a lot of baggage of connotations. In reality, the ONLY thing that the distinction tells you for certain is how much TIME some one has. There are people without a lot of time who want difficult content, and there are people with lots of time who can't do that difficult content. So when we are just looking at it as difficulty we are ignoring the other dimensions of time investment and how much complexity players are willing to deal with. We are at the point now where guilds are making the equivalent of newgrounds flash games to teach people raid mechanics given how complicated it all is. There are some people who don't mind difficulty in execution but who won't want to jump through hoops to deal with that much complexity.
My warrior tank has never felt stronger to me. How overpowered do tanks have to be?
Every video same thing being talked about.
Looking at how there are SO many mechanics that defy the White Script of established player abilities running now in NPC scripts all I see is Plot Armor and Plot Weapons/Abilities that require you to be one of the best players as you have to be able to move out of range or LoS in circumstances where it wouldn't be expected and actually be difficult to do if not outright impossible. Devs need to learn how to create more diverse abilities instead of whine about diversity in the dev team. And those abilities should work properly with the established scripts of the abilities in-game.
The framerate issues were due to a damn weakaura
As a casual that's been playing since Vanilla. I just started to touch Mythic and I don't like it, the juice isn't worth the squeeze so I'll never see Mythic+. It's all good it's by choice, my sweatlodge is PVP
I have 4 lvl 72 characters. I'm super casual and could care less about mythics raiding or group content. All I do is quest and explore.
LFR raids are like a guided quest version of the raids. They are wierd and feel fake
The biggest thing they forget if we gear out alot of us will move on to our alts. It's not just you I broke 2600+ io but only a couple of my usual running mates we able to break 2200... it suck because alot of my friends are out because they qoute can't live on the game. Reality is it ypu make it to hard people just won't play. We've got to a point where 60% of people in keys ain't great and the 20 button rotations
It doesn’t help that even the simplest specs have a boatload of fucking buttons and complex rotations.
honestly gearing and collecting gear to power up is a fundamental flaw in game design because no matter how hard you try there will always be the best gear for your character that you have to do a chore list to collect.
good vid. thanks mate
Any game with a competitive element will become elitist at some point. People who are exceptionally good at video games normally don’t have a lot else going for them so their skill in games becomes the metric by which they validate their worth as a human being. Blizzard should curb the most toxic of the behaviors but to completely eliminate it they would have to make wow so incredibly easy that it wouldn’t be worth playing.
You sound a little resentful of players who are better than you. Surely there are some trust fund kids who can do whatever they want who are gods at the game, but there's always people like me who are just quick to pick up games and improve. Who put effort into improving. I have other things going on with my life, but I can still get cutting edge when I play. Still knock out my +10s. Still hit 95th+ percentile parses on at least half the fights in a raid.
lol u don't get myth gear from 8s anymore in ur vault u gotta do 10s now unless they reverted that change
Ya I misspoke people plus 8 for the crests
@@Samiccusdon’t let it happen again.
The game should be made for casual players who just wanna have fun.. you shouldn't be flipping out from 1 mistake or 1 death.. wow is causing mental illness in a lot of people. The higher your Ilvl, the more chances are that you have achieved higher levels of mental illness
Causal players don't want mythic plus. Mythic plus doesn't even sound fun and people are always saying how much they don't like it so I am not even interested. Also having some elitist rating system is further keeps me from even wanting to try and pug
What people like about m+ is the challenge, and the ability to get good gear from dungeons and bis ilvl gear from vault. The timer is what people hate. If it wasn't timed, people would like it, I bet.
Yes. To all.
I’d blame Add on all of these tryhards & elitiest jerks making it worst
It's the communitys fault
We have 2 easy raid difficulties for casuals (LFR, NHC) and 1 where they can progress and everyone realisticly can get ahead of the curve ; the M+ mount so the main reward of M+ got lowered to 2000 rating which is basicly nothing and the "best" reward imo for pvp the elite set is also for 1800 rating which is again super achieveable. Also casuals got a solo/small group activity with delves that gives rediculous rewards. So i would say 99% of the game is made for casuals. The fact that someone thinks that isnt the case is again : rediculous. I would say its a wonder that the elitist playerbase still exists cause there are no rewards in m+ between the mount and the 0,01% title, same goes for mythic raiding if you arent like the top 0,5% that clears mythic raid you are probadly gonna stuck at 4/8 or 6/8 til the end of the season and again the same goes for pvp you are either a top30% player that unlocks their elite set or a 0,5% player that gets gladiator no rewards between. I would argue that the part of the community that gets treated the worst als these between top 0,1% of the player and top 25-30% of the players base. elitist players got their goodies and casuals got TONS of goodies
Well said. Exactly my thoughts. I don’t even play as much because there’s no gameplay. It’s a transmog and mount collectible game now. The end. There’s literally nothing to do unless you’re trying to push highest level (gladiator or 10+ keys) and at this point, there’s no reason to push
A wow player completely missing the point? Say it ain't so.
It takes skill to completely ignore the point and woosh like this. Congrats, you're a special one.
As a super casual player (plays like twice a week for 3-4 hours), I totally agree with you. I am able to level up gear to mythic and can still get tons of rewards. Some people just like to bitch just to bitch.
Yes
It was always elitist because of hardcore players. This is nothing new.
btw idk what elite you talking half of players dont have half skills on bars play like low level AI bot thats the try and if tell him way not interrupt or way not use stun or cc start to cry you are toxic i will report you :D
Jep it did sadly
Doesn’t play keys and complains about keys being too hard. The more you do the easier it gets and the more IO you get for better groups.
Add Ons is cheating learn the raid and have more fun
The less addons the better. The game shouldn’t need them
There should be NO MYTHIC PLUS..................................................Just MYTHIC. Right ?? Right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a game where back in the day the website you used to get good was called "elitest jerks" people need to either accept that they are dogshit or learn the game to get better