One thing that I think is keeping more people from tanking is that there is just so much to learn in each dungeon this season. I don't get to play a whole lot because I have a full-time job and two kids, but still I feel like I am just now getting the hang of all of the dungeons.
I would rather agree with your comment. As someone who recently tried tanking and had to "re-learn" the dungeons from a different perspective - there are a lot of tips and tricks that you need to know in each dungeon and if you are making a mistake to learn each on of them and every mistake being potentially a wipe... It actually starts to feel a bit like raid progression which is simply not applicable in M+ setting.
@@theheebs100 Exactly. It's not that I can't do it, I just don't feel like doing it anymore. It's way too time consuming, not fun, and the people are just too toxic. The amount of "research" you're expected to do in this game is absurd.
@@thelegendbehindthecow for sure. M+ used to be about doing some big pulls, and knowing which packs you could group together. Now it feels like each individual pack is a mini-boss
I like the mini-boss reference, I'll surely use that in the next podcast episodes :) And yeah, the game we play is all about the fun and I am not a tank but it seems they kind of removed the fun factor out of it. At least from a semi-casual perspective if you just wanna try and play the role.
@@theheebs100 M+ doesn't even start to get hard until about +12 or 13, and even then it's not hard in a fun, creative, or interesting way. It just starts getting increasingly impossibly hard (extreme damage output). And it's not that can't do it, I got to #6 (exclusively in pugs) on my server in a past season, it's that it's not worth doing. It's super toxic, there is no meaningful reward, and your "progress" just gets wiped away in a few months. The model is just terrible. It's all so boring and annoying too. The game is just not fun to play anymore. Playing my character is fun, but the content I'm playing is not fun. Again, your expected to "research" 8 dungeons with 2-3 bosses, and 8 raid bosses every expansion/patch. What a chore. You can't just play the game and learn it as you go. I mean, you can and I do, but you'll be hated and harassed for it. You didn't sit for hours and memorize boss mechanics before queueing? No invite for you. As I've said for years this game needs fundamental reconceptualization, and that means an all new development team, willing to drastically change the obsolete paradigm.
I have never ever tried tanking or even activated brewmaster (as a mistweaver) but I have watched alot of Sha. You do so much good content and seems like a really nice person - thanks!
About the death counter instead of a timer. Just imagine : You are in a dungeon group all is good you are cc'ing and the dungeon is slow but you are doing good. You are in there for 2 hours. Last pull before the boss you wipe and run is ruined. That would be so bad. I hope they don't institute deaths instead of timers just for that reason alone.
That wouldn't happen. If you are not a spec that does absolute highest raw dps numbers you won't get invites to keys. It would literslly just devolve to high burst every pull and wait for cds. Bosses would melt but only dps specs that can melt will be in keys (3x enh shams)
I have all 5 tanks above 2500 and main tank at 3005io rating. Tanking this season has been miserable. Super unfun and spikey as hell with proper CD rotation. They took away our healing, our damage, our tankiness and implemented 1 million tank busters, as well as the worst tank imbalance ever. Prot pala is only VIABLE not op it still dies. make tanks great again that will fix healer stress and tank shortages. We're the only role with no class fantasy. Healers heal, dps do bonkers dam, tank is play perfect or die ur nkt a tank really just a worse DPS
That's heavy coming from someone who plays all the tanks, thanks for tuning in! If playing in this season makes you feel like this and it most certainly does the same for many healers - no surprise it's kind of dead already and so many people are quitting the game :(
I'm mainly healer (2.3k) but I also picked up tank for offrole first time since Legion since no dps clicked with me. I'd say the biggest issue is that the game does not teach tanking. I've had tanks in Mists+8 not kicking cake, since it wasn't a problem causing them to die before. I had tanks not using mitigation on trash, since it didn't matter before falling over to two trash mobs meleeing. I had a tank trying to fucking facetank DB 2nd boss because M0 does not teach you to kill the lieutenants first. It also goes other way around - I've had guy convinced he's trash for constantly failing Stonevault, when it was just his healers not dispeling EDNA. And my god the routing issue in lower keys is insane. Was helping guildie gear his char on alt and we were running low keys. One failed DB2 because we did 165% trashcount and blood dk tried to solo boss from 30% with the affix that heals boss if failed, which took 13 minutes. Two failed SoB 6s by seconds because we did 140% count. Don't think we had a single run below 120% count. And then there are Blood DKs. I have no idea what the hell people at blizzard though when designing this spec for current expansion. Sure for a veteran keeping them alive is very easy once you know their survivability curve, but for a new learning healer it is a nightmare and they WILL brick multiple runs before they learn how to play around BDK's paper pulls. For healing IMO biggest stress issue is that tankbusters and heavy dps hitters can overlap. So you need to quickly top up tank, but dps didn't press defensive and now you need to keep them alive through that heavy hitter too. So you're forced to choose focus/let someone die and any wipe is always you fault, even if direct cause is dps/tanks not using their defensives properly. As for threat, it is a bandaid change to combat tank shortage. You have tanks struggling to keep threat because they are 605 in 624 group running 10s. Also threat scaling is fucked. I don't recall what ilvl, but at some point my Warlock started pulling threat off voidwalker, to the point it is useless. For q taunt pet it should never be the case.
You've shot a lot of problems there and many of them can be tackled if let's say follower dungeons and/or delves were used to teach you how to actually play the game in raid or M+. I do wonder how many people would actually opt in for that learning process before jumping in to the next game type though :)
Great job in the podcasts Wolvy. Been really enjoying watching them. Tank nerfs are fine what is not fine is the dungeon design. First boss in city for example every 15 sec you have major tank buster. Regular tanks just fall over every dungeon that dont really know what’s going on. Second issue is the stuns and interupts. To many times a stun goes off everyone uses there interupt and then 3 casts go off targeting one person and insta kill. Third issue was tank aggro. I don’t know how you were not getting aggro at all. I get it all the time in my shaman and pally. Mostly with bears and dk’s but still and issue. Second boss in dawn one min into the fight I get aggro from the bear and get the tank buster and that’s just a wipe. It’s not on the pull that’s the prob for me. Can I say I’m so freaking happy about priests and Druid changed and I’m hoping Aug is dead but I have a very bad feeling it’s going to be one tank one Aug and three dps and they’ll make the Aug go out and switch to heals for certain things. They did this with Druid in dragonflight.
Thanks mate! As mentioned in other comments too - the tank nerfs in vacuum would probably be just fine but with everything else that they changed and the dungeon design / tank busters, it's kind of a disaster now as you pointed out. As for Aug, I think everyone hopes it dies, may be even high end players that have to play it (not sure but it doesn't seem like all of them are enjoying it) so I really hope you are wrong on the 3DPS 1AUG cook :)
I’ve been tanking since S4 of Shadowlands and love my Brew monk but this season with pugs is just brutal. Healers don’t understand how to heal me, don’t track or know when it add an external and just us being weaker. My Brew was 6-7 I levels higher than my prot war/pally and they felt sooooo much better on 10’s. My monk is as 630 and I got all my portals on my 626 warrior with ease. I knew in beta pugging would be a disaster with the 15 sec death affix and change to stuns and ICD of spells. These two things alone have killed pigging as a tank. The nerfs hurt but those have killed pugging this tier. I still haven’t decided to stick with my Brew or go to Pally or Warrior depending on how the beta goes for 11.1. Sha keep it up there is you and equinox for us Brew lovers
The tank shortage also has to do with not being able to learn how to tank. I can tank 40 H thinking I'm amazing as we never wiped, heals always had mana, then I step into a M0 1 mistake I'm dead and the group is dead.. . It's a 0 where I'm trying to actually learn and I can't, don't say learn in H as they are so easy mistakes dont matter
Yeah, you can face roll through heroics, eat mechanics in the face or completely ignore them and you'd still be fine. They don't teach you basically almost anything about M+, especially now with the squish and low level keys actually being a lot harder than what they were before.
@@gringoboy701 I think he was referring to the start of the season and yes, you are right, if you are geared, you easily slap the M0s but if you are not OR you do them later in the season with a bunch of other people who are now undergeared as well and they don't get invited into +2s and above, these runs can actually be quite challenging and difficult, even more so if you assume that there are people who are just starting to learn in there.
Hi haven't seen this podcast before, just commenting to leave my opinion on tanking. FWIW: I'm a competitive player, typically around title level and main healing priest, but this seasons I've been dabbling in dps as well and in general playing more casually (so many good games to play rn omg). I play a lot of MMOs and although I still prefer to be support I do also tank at a high level in other games like ffxiv (paladin main). WoW has several major issues with tanking. The main factors in my opinion are; threat management, pacing, bloat, responsibility overload, and the communities reaction to those previous issues. We can talk about extremely punishing outgoing damage but that's more a tuning knob issue (and a big one at that) and I'm focusing primarily on core design philosophy. Threat management: WoW is a lot less lenient in terms of the tank threat multiplier. There are very few other games, to the point that I can't think of any off the top of my head, where threat management as a tank is actually a major factor. I find new tanks including myself struggling to gather mobs and maintain threat, especially at the start of a pull. Dungeon layout and mob placement also makes this more challenging compared to other games. The pacing in WoW outside of raid content is very fast, which then compounds the threat management problems. This is most noticeable in m+. Also due to the need for fast, consistent threat application, and kicks and utility in a typical pull in a key, tanks in WoW have experienced significant button bloat. The lack of any form of homogenization across specs and roles has also compounded this issue. Continueing from that button bloat, tanks have too much responsibility. Between threat management, kicks and stops, utility, defensive rotations and routing, on top of the regular pressure of being the "leader" of any given group, and the knowledge of if you die, it's most likely a wipe, tanking in WoW becomes a sort of mountain of responsibility that the vast vast majority of players new and old do not want to tackle, whether it's because they feel unsure of their abilities or simply don't want to have that much pressure when playing a game when the alternative like dps has so much less responsibility on a moment to moment basis. Lastly because of everything above, and because the current end game modes are so punishing for failure, the constant pressure of timers in m+ or even simply the efficiency focused community in non timed content, this funnels the playerbase into being vastly more critical of tank and support players if they don't perform optimally, further scaring away anyone who may want to give the role a try. Again, why would someone deal with all of the above, AND get yelled at for it, when they can just do their rotation and kicks as a dps. Overall I think WoW is a victim of itself. It's a 20 year old game that has been in an arms race against its players the entire time to make continually more challenging content. As great as this is, don't get me wrong I love the adrenaline of timing a push key, there is a threshold where the complexity of moment to moment gameplay becomes unfun for a large portion of current players and begins pushing away new players and personally I think DF and especially TWW has crossed that threshold. Unfortunately I'm not sure blizzard, or the playerbase, have it in them to reverse course. The things that are needed (cutting button bloat, reducing overall complexity and punishment, homogenization across roles) tend to be more of a one way street, it's very hard to go back to simpler design, and that's not even mentioning their current war on weakauras atm.
Yeah, I've been saying this for awhile now but the game is not going to attract new players because it's way overcomplicated and there are a lot of barriers to entry. Obviously, going back to 1-2 button rotation is also not the answer but they've definitely crossed a threshold and I hope they will be able to revert back at least a little bit to make the game a bit more friendly in general.
I only play tank. Normally I'm really consistent with my performance and do really well. But sometimes I do mess up and when I do i get trash talked and called piss tank but I never complained about DPS not interrupting or dying all the time.
Yeah, DPS mistakes are often not THAT obvious although they still cost you the key, however, it takes longer for it to show up and take effect. When the key ends and it's overtime because there were few too many deaths (probably because of missed interrupts or failed mechanics), everyone just leaves silently and moves to the next key. But when the tank makes a mistake, it's most certainly a full wipe and everyone will get straight to your face :(
People saying tank damage is too high at the moment is crazy to me. Yes, I have outdps'd damage dealers in my keys, my highest this season was 1.35 Million overall, but that's comparing the higher end of the spectrum. If you look at top keys, the tank usually sits around 50% of a damage dealer's dps. And that is comparing the best to the best, which is far more relevant to compare the dps ratio between tanks and damage dealers.
Very nice bit! I do play DPS every now and then and numbers differ so much from key to key as they depend on how the tank pulls, how big are the pulls, etc. And looking at the ratio is always a good source to figure out how I performed compared to both the tank and the other DPS. And to add to your point, I think 50% of the DPS damage is a nice mark to aim at
@@tjf73 lol Lets be honest with the lad. It is that bad. If you don't know what to pull, and you don't know the routes? They will let you know. Many won't let you know so nicely either. However, mythic0 isn't as bad causue allot of players are new, but this is also bad because you'll be taking WAY more damage than you should cause no one is interrupting. This alone often makes a new tank player think he's a bad tank cause he's dying so quickly. In reality it's the DPS and heals ect not interupting. It's quite the mess. Blizzard Put way too much power over the tank in the players hands. that shouldn't be the case.
You do get criticized i looked up city of threads route and I guess it's not the new meta and instantly was being told wtf am i doing even tho we still hit percentage @tjf73
Dont be afraid, if youve been gearing through delves youll be pretty overgeared for the early mythics. Youll be able to learn while building up understanding and score.
A small cd for mobs after a stun, knock up/back, disorient, or other ccs before casting again on trash mobs would fix a lot of the dungeon issues. And an inability to cast an interrupt on you’re target during the 3 second silence period would work wonders. Also… shits hitting tanks really hard. Being a blood dk right now is really rough in high keys. Obviously it’s doable… but come on. Throw us a bone on the health bar volatility.
Yeah, the roll back on stuns/interrupts that they did was very welcome, especially when you add on top the current dungeon design with enormous amount of CC required. Sadly, I haven't seen any changes in that direction for S2 yet but it's early days and I'll definitely provide some feedback on the forums on that matter so fingers crossed!
I've tanked many dungeons with guild groups, actually really enjoy tanking, but PUG tanking is a different beast. The best way to handle it honestly, is realizing "I'm a tank, without me this group falls apart..." and just play like the rest of the party are NPC's. If someone is toxic or really gives you a rough time, just leave and report them for toxicity. You'll be in another group within 10 seconds, they will be queuing for 20-30 mins. It's unfortunate, but with how toxic pugs are, it's the only way to get over that "Social anxiety" aspect of tanking.
Sometimes if someone is omega toxic, I'll just ignore them and keep playing. Saves you a lot of trouble and you won't have to listen to them at all any more (probably makes them even angrier as they get no replies). If the key goes well, awesome, if not, well you didn't waste any unnecessary emotions on it and as you said, back to queue and on to the next one.
My solo m+ cook I think it pretty good but likely hard to do. Remove dungeon scaling from key stone level make it rating level. So if you have 5 people get put together ranging from 950 rating to 1050 rating then the dungeon is scaled to 1000. You would need to remove rating for failing the timer but I think you could refund some rating for dungeon completion. You also have brackets for rating like say every 1k rating where you either can't drop below or it takes multiple failed runs to do so (basically reward break points). I think it should also allow 1 or 2 people que not a 100% solo personally. Also don't think you do score per dungeon it is just over all score and the system maybe in the background tries to give you different dungeons regularly enough it feels random.
That is a pretty interesting take but I don't think Blizzard would implement something with punishing rating - meaning they take away rating from you if you fail. It'd be nice to see some experiments in that direction though, most definitely!
This season is hard on players and that’s trickling down to players freaking out with a hair trigger. I’ve been tanking since BC. This is the worst season of tanking ever. They did an M level squash, affix change, healing change, self preservation nerf AND a new expansion all within 6 months. And as a tank I feel like the squash is the worst part. People think everything below a 6 is a joke going into the new season and a 2 is basically a 12 now. And that bites people in the ass, a lot.
You have a good point there. The start of this expansion had a LOT of changes happening pretty much at the same time, some of them were plain bad, some of them not so much, may be some of them were even OK on their own but when you combine everything together, it ended up being relatively bad overall :(
45:20 Here we have a MAJOR par of the problem, it is what anyone changing to tank faces. Top it with not knowing the role, or even the fights annd it is not a very plesant experience. The problem i have with tanking is: 1 I am not immortal or even close, just easier to keep alive. Should not need my long CD survival skills for trash mobs in TW/heroic dungeons. Bosses or harder dungeon sure, but for trash... 2 do crap damage (my dps with 50lower ilvl do more) 3 expected to know every mechanic in every fight 24:40 If you never had a problem with threat, you are either lucky or do small pulls where dps dotn jump the gun. Getting threat back when 3 dps focus on a mob/pack each is not that easy. Ofc these dps generaly run away when they get agro, making it harder for tank to pick up the mobs, so the healer draw agro and there is a wipe. "tank didnt hold agro"
I think you have a good point there - it's one thing to learn the dungeons and the mechanics as DPS as you can pretty much be absent and not much would change but learning as tank (or healer for that matter) is very stressful as mistakes are costly, they lead to wipes, which lead to hate and toxicity and it only escalates from there :(
Yeah the idea is that healers will have to cast more now to top you off but since the damage is increased as well, that just doesn't work. So they eventually end up buffing the healers too so they can top people off quicker now making it even more NET ZERO effect!
I play a 632 Paladin Tank, I only play to get my Portals from 10s I currently have 6/8 10s Timed. I will say it is hard to find a healer and even harder to find a decent healer. I use all of my ultility constantly and am often not far behind the healer in heals and I often out DPS alot of the DPS on trash. But as soon as I make a mistake, it burns the key :(
Unfortunately you are spot on. I think it's around 10s and 11s where one single mistake from the tank OR the healer can lead to a wipe and potentially brick the key. And I simply think that they should design the dungeons in a better way as this would be quite fine if it happens in higher keys but it shouldn't be THAT hard to play in 12s and below as basically this is still a point where you still get rewards. Call me biased but this level of the game should be much more accessible!
I've tanked since vanilla technically, but as a class that's supposed to tank instead of tanking as a Shaman in vanilla dungeons, BC realistically. Something I saw happening in DF, and frankly it's still happening in WWI is how absurdly resilient all the tanks are. Sure, it's fun to be an immortal demigod. For you. But it really ruins everyone else's experience and frankly contributes heavily to WoW's longstanding community problems. I was trying to show a new player dungeons in DF and it was impossible because of these selfish tanks ruining the entire experience. If you don't need other people, there is no incentive to make nice with folks and work on teamwork. And you see this getting worse and worse and worse as time goes on where tanks became completely overpowered. I really feel M+ accelerated this trend-tanks need to be much tougher relative to the game of the best to do Mythic challenges. The raid design that uses two tanks instead of eight requires the two tanks to be disproportionately geared and powerful to perform their roles adequately.
As I said in the podcast, in DF if there was no timer in the dungeons, the tanks would never invite other roles to their key as they wouldn't need them. And while I agree that this is a huge problem which causes so much more problems on its own, unfortunately, things didn't shape out for the better once they nerfed the tanks a bit in TWW as now they started disappearing. Sure, it's because of many different changes that happened to the game with the tank nerf just being one of them but even if we agree on bad timing, I'm still not sure what the best solution would be so that tanks are not Gods but they also keep playing their role
@@thelegendbehindthecow I'll tell you what I said in the forums. M+ should be removed from the game. Mythic should also be removed from the game. Both modes have created too much variance between different players and split the player base which is good for no one. M+ has done to dungeoning what Arena did to PvP, and I don't feel that point can even be argued, particularly given all the gnashing of teeth about the God Comp in DF.
@@solasslym3 I definitely disagree. M+ is the only reason I play the game. Having a system that you can infinitely push and basically find the level that you can/want to play at is priceless. If that's not in the game, I would lose interest doing heroic dungeon even before the first week of the season is over. Mythic raiding is a nice challenge for me to do on the side. It's hard but I enjoy it. Both systems have flaws, they are far from perfect but they are the only reason that I play the game. Controversial, yes, but definitely many people feel like me so deleting them would kill huge percentage of the people playing.
@@thelegendbehindthecow Yeah. It's a difficult scenario because I understand the people who love it love it. But it really has ripped the player base apart. It wasn't so big of a problem back when there was only Normal and Heroic raiding, but the extra tier of raiding and infinite scaling has really destroyed levels in the community by splitting us up into 'can' and can not. It's Gearscore on steroids; forgive me if you don't get that reference. I don't mind that you disagree. In your shoes I would too.
In short, people playing DPS are the problem. HEAL ME, stop standing in stuff, HEAL ME, I wouldn't have to if you'd kicked that mob. What DPS telegraph are you healers are a necessary problem, we don't like you, think you're all trash and hold us back and down. Tank gets a lot of the same but if we both quit your toxic group within 15 seconds we can get another group. Get this. I PvP, PvP is far less toxic than M+ and after getting to 10's the season they started M+ I've not been back since. The problem with this game is it doesn't correct bad play and it's all set up as competitive, NOT co-operative. What do the 3 dps in your dungeon party want to do. Be no1 on cc's and damage mitigation or DPS and damage done? I'd put a barrier between HC dungs and M+ like the proving grounds. Don't enter the proving ground and record a result you can't enter m+. If your best is Bronze you can only do say 1 to 5 keys. Silver higher brackets and Gold the free pass. Blizz could easily tune a proving ground to trial by class/spec for this. End of your trial you get scored on the mitigation, damage done interrupts etc a class and player test.
Heroics are probably not a good entry point for proving grounds but you have a point that a lot of people already eluded to in the other comments. May be the proving grounds could be scalable follower dungeons or improved delves but something like that would be nice to have in-game for sure!
I played war with in beta and i reported how bad m+ was and all i got was this is not the final build ext ext. Whats the point in telling them the problem and they ignore the feed back because they know best. Most wow players are ready to jump ship to a new mmo.
Well, I've provided a lot of feedback during PTR/beta too and some of them they listened to and made changes. Some they didn't. I think it plays a huge role on how you present your feedback and what arguments you use. May be it's me but I've noticed that they act much more often on posts that are well-argumented and show that the person posting definitely took their time to explain what the problem is and supposedly how to fix it compared to posts that are mainly just "QQ it's broken" without any specifics, arguments or suggestions.
Oh dear, I could swear I put them on but apparently they are missing :( I'm currently out of town on vacation but as soon as I'm back tomorrow I'll add them in the description of the video and they should show up on the timeline as well. Apologies!
I think having a death limit (and having it be a generous-ish number of deaths) in the 2-7 range makes sense. It gives new people a chance to take it slow and figure out what the mobs and bosses actually do. A lot of people learn best by just doing it. In 8’s and up, we bring the timer back. 7’s are where things start to actually hurt for most newer players, and it’ll make them more conscious of when to use their defensives and better execute mechanics. Well, that’d be the goal. Who knows if it’d work, but I think it’d be worth a shot.
I don't know what generous number would work though. As I said in the podcast, I had pretty bad experience with the 5 or 6 deaths that you get in delves as a group. Obviously that number is quite low and I'm not sure what it needs to be to feel better. And even if we figure out a number, not sure if Blizzard will comply and let it be high :D
Hot takes: 1. Remove a bunch of trash in dungeons, remove that additional routing requirement OR build something into the UI to show % on the mobs (yes, there are WA for it). 2. Make dungeons 3 bosses, 15-20min max. There is a reason delves are popular, it’s quick, relatively fun content. 3. Reduce toxicity by building a better default UI that teaches players what caused their death, what they could have done to mitigate it etc. 4. Remove key depletion, you’ve already wasted N minutes of your life, that’s enough of a punishment (let alone if the group disbands and you get no chance at loot either). If you must, just switch it to a different dungeon, but keep the same keystone level. 5. Keep the big damage, but don’t make it so that the big damage is unhealable due to GCD issues thanks to overlapping mechanics.
im all for the 3 bosses per dungeon. max 20 min. im not about the key deplete tho. there shouldnt be a key period. just que into what you want. keep the timer. make it like delves. cant do a 10 without doing the same dungeon on a 9. queing into a dungeon like a rift from d3 and just pick your level the same as a delve would be bad ass. i really want all mechanics taken away from trash. some is fine but put the mechanics on bosses make them 7 min fights. let us pull wall to wall trash like we do in ffxiv. let us also do damage as healers as we do in ffxiv. i really hate that the game revolves around the top 2%. dungeons could be so dam fun but they make them hard on purpose for the top.
Some really nice nuggets here, thank you! Agree with most of it, specifically fan of the shorter dungeons and 3-boss limit. It feel really bad to commit something like 40 minutes in a dungeon and then brick the key on extremely hard last boss fight (like Nokhud Offensive for example). That's something that most people would probably enjoy. Depletes should be there in some form as otherwise it will start feeling a lot like a tournament realm - you go in, practice the first pull and if it doesn't work you just reset. That won't be enjoyable. But having some kind of insurance or "ticks" before the key depletes could probably work for the better. And lastly, per Kaiser's comment, I kind of like variety in the trash and the routes that you can take. Not the quantity - that's too much sometimes. However, having alternatives and different type of gameplay based on the trash that you are pulling is often fun and engaging - for example, Atal'Dazar and do you go left or right - completely different dungeon!
I will tell you what happened save you 2 hrs. Tanks arent flashy tanks responsble for all the CC and interrupts allong side healer. Dps go zugzug and flame
They buffed threat for top end players where enhancement shamans can pull threat 20 sec in the pull. They deal 3mill plus dps so its a problem on that level.
Paladin is the only properly tuned tank. it doesnt feel op. youre still vulnerable. all others just feel bad in current content. so those that didnt reroll just stopped playing most likely
Kinda lame that Tanks feel like if they are not unkillable gods they don't wanna play. Tanks should worry about tanking healers on healing Prot Pally healing is off the charts. Nobody wants tanks to be weak but chill out with the immortal crap guys tanks soloing the last 50% of a boss when the group wipes isn't good gameplay and it feels like that is what you are asking for.
@mattharvey7799 lol you're reaching with this jump to conclusion. I didnt say tanks should be unkillable. There should be a reasonable amount of mobs you can pull, including single bosses, and at least have a modicum of responsibility for your own survival. DK, dh and monk simply do not have the cool downs to make it through a lot of fights at a certain level. with so much responsibility being on dps to kick critical casts, its feeling pretty uncomfortable to pug anything beyond a 10. I dont know if game design, tank design, encounter design or what is the principle issue, but they feel compounding.
As discussed in the other comments - I think this season is combination of a lot of changes that overall made the pug experience dismal. Some of the changes are probably fine and good in insolation but if you add up everything together, it ends up being one big mess and definitely not a pug friendly environment/design :(
im really the oppisite I hate 12's and higher the damage is already so high in these dungeons that it turns into almost impossible, the affixs I love kinda weird.
Depends on which affixes you love! And yeah, 12s and above gets a little bit into the "big sweats" territory although you can pug your way into a reasonably high level. I like that last part but I can also easily see people just sticking to 10s and 11s. In fact, that's what I do on many of my alts!
@thelegendbehindthecow after they fixed the floating orbs I don't have a problem with in fact it's one of my favorites because you don't have to use any utility to get them. The worst imo is the healer absorb affix if ur team isn't helping you and it causes more deaths than any other affix because you are using healing cds and dispels when there are already so many dangerous dots
Oh, don't get me started on the absorb affix... It's NOT a healer affix for f*** sake. Yes, the healing option is there just so that you can have a backup plan if things go way south with dispels but this affix is anything but healer affix. And the fact that some classes can deal with it while others cannot is possibly the WORST design decision that you can ever make....
Why people think that soloq will magically add more tanks/healers to the game and queue times will be short for them? soloq will only split playerbase even more and there will be less people in lfg, and that's all.
Depends on how they implement it! If there are additional incentives to play as tank/healer then may be the queue time problem will be better/solved. As per dividing the community - again, depends on how they implement it as people have suggest it do it only for high or low keys, do it parallel, do it as a replacement. A lot of "ifs" there and you are correct to ask questions but I think that if the implementation is good, it will only complement the game and make it better!
The dungeon squish, makes throwing new tanks in to what is basicly a plus 10 without having the lower keys to learn on, the community who are incredibly toxic and impatient and assume every tank is MDI trained with routes and %s set up, all the responsibility of the group with 0 extra reward, i dont play tank but id have no ossue with tanks getting more gold, crests of even one guranteed peice of loot at the end of the dungeon they deserve it. Also nerving the least played role, is madness
Yeah, the nerfs came on top of many other changes and it definitely feels like a step back. Ball is back in Blizzard's park though, as you said, no one would object to having more tank in game and they need to figure out how to do that. Be it augy runes, gold, loot, whatever, it just needs to be fixed!
As a tank main with a healer alt, i dont see the upside of solo q, i get in to groups fast anyway. I would rather have more control of group comp then random. For info i play of meta tank and healer.
I think M+ Solo Queue could be fun if Blizz would add more M+ achievements and make all rankings spec-specific, e.g. 0.1% titles per spec. Also, Solo Queue would do a better job at finding players that actually know how to play as it would filter out boosters.
What key levels are you playing though? I kind of do the same but my experience is quite bad this season. Yes, as tank/healer I can get into groups relatively fast on "homework" keys but then the whole group ends up waiting in LFG for the other role to fill up. And as soon as I start pushing for IO which would be keys just above my IO range, both on main and alts, the queue times start to become obnoxious. So in that regard I could see a solo queue system being helpful, of course, if implemented correctly.
@ Been doing mostly +11 keys on both tank and healer. I normaly pugg to the 3k mark but this season i clocked out at around 2,8k. Was just not fun. Maybe for lower keys it would be nice with a solo system, but for me i would not play that unless it gave tanks and healers some kind of bonus for signing up. Then maybe.
Yeah, this season is definitely much harder. I usually do 3k on multiple characters and go beyond on some but this season I barely got to 3k on my main and I don't even want to be remotely bothered going beyond or getting there again on alts :(
It feels like the seasons are just way too long. I got burned out healing keys. I would like shorter seasons and more of them per expansion. Just cycle more dungeons into the mix. Make the first season always all of the new dungeons though please. I'm playing other games and will come back to heal keys again in the next season, but not before. I'm just bored with the dungeons, they suck.
I have a followup to this do you think that the dungeons should roll over to different dungeons? If so did you play before they changed each season? The big thing about seasons not changing so often is that it would bring in an incredible high amount of ilvl increase to the game.
Yeah, I think everyone would enjoy even faster cadence for the seasons although it's mile better now than what it was before. It's probably not plausible for them to do it though as they obviously cannot create so many new dungeons to keep everything fresh and they are sort of starting to run out of old dungeons too since they are bringing back Mechagon for a THIRD time now. May be some kind of a rotating dungeons in and out mid season could do some tricks and help!
The problem with tanks being able to survive for a couple minutes with the entire group is you feel like part of the Justice League that isn't Superman. Sort of a "why are we here?" I agree that everyone needs to feel powerful, but I don't know the last time I've honestly felt powerful as a healer and part of that is because your damage is terrible and you don't have much agency because the DPS have to push their defensives or they die anyway.
@@theheebs100 That has been a topic debate among a lot of healers, I honestly don't know. It feels good as a dps to press buttons at the right time to stay alive, but it's also trading agency from the healer. I kinda wish healers could do significantly more damage in PvE if they don't have to heal or make tradeoffs with healing thruput.
@@amera35 i play all the tanks and am learning most of the healers. disc and mw feel fun because I actually do meaningful damage. everything else has big "why bother" vibes
Once you go to a little bit higher keys, it often ends up being a two-fold scenarios in many high damage situations. Everyone either knows and presses their defensives when they need to and if they do, they usually survive without much trouble and don't need much healing. OR noone presses their defensives and they die, no matter how much you heal them as you can do some insane plays to save a couple of situations but you cannot do it all the time. This kind of makes the healers redundant as it's not whether or not you can heal through something, it's whether or not the rest of the group presses their personal and group wide defensives. So looking at everything from that perspective - I think that having fewer defensives overall would change the design of the damage profiles in dungeons thus making healing better.
Dev’s bright ideas to nerf tf out of tanks and healers in beta is what happened. They made the least desired rolls require minimal skill so here we are.
Casual…CE and weekly 10s. My guild does first 4 mythic bosses each week. I have KSM and ilvl 629. I can’t even get invited to 8s let alone 10s. This is the worst M+ season there has been.
There is a gap that gets formed around each key stone level going up and jumping from one key stone level to the next. There are no shortcuts and usually you have to do all dungeons at the current level that you are at (let's say 7 or 8) before you can successfully start queuing for the next. It's a process, it's tiresome, it's long and you have to do it all over again on every key stone level but at the end of the day don't get discouraged - just follow the steps and the processes and you will get there!
As a main tank since Legion, pugs have just been complaining about routing most than ever this patch, and the worst part is they are complaining I'm not using routes developed in week 2 to 4 while I am keeping up to date with current routes improvements week to week. I also link the route before every key, no one says anything and then from their pathing on some map it is apparent most of the group doesn't even bother opening it.
My experience is that tanks linking routes in lower keys up to like 10 and 11s usually doesn't do much. Players consider these level of keys easy so they don't pay attention to the route and just want to press W. It works much better in keys past 11 although I had some wild experience there as well with the tank saying "Bruh this is the route, they play this at the +18s" in a simple +12 which apparently never works the same way for a pug..... So pretty bad experience overall but I always enjoy and respect tanks like you who link the route in advance as I always look at it and I try to prepare as best as I can for it. That doesn't seem to be the status quo though :(
people expect so much from tanks, but also dps get unironically called toddlers by some high end tanks. it's an unreciprocated amount of effort, and if tanking was made to have less expectations then there would be more tanks. i plan my route and i make considerations for dps and current party needs in my 12s which is all fair enough, but i also determine when lust happens, i communicate all the CC and interrupts, i decide brez, and after all that i not infrequently get blamed for bricked keys. im not against having a group leader. im not against being the group leader. however, a lot of people dont want added responsibility when they're trying to relax, so that puts all that responsibility on a single person. it's like a guild leader; being that person is a personality type, and it's a hard pass from most people. if you want more good tanks in your world, take my of the onus to announce when you want lust instead of getting mad when it isnt when youd expect it, tell the group which target youre going to interrupt with an added attack here ping in your focus macro (everyone should have a focus macro for their interrupt so you don't miss it), and most importantly actually use your utility and CC without being asked for it. these things aren't difficult but people are too obsessed these days with max damage and it's causing leadership personalities to begin finding the game unfun, like an employee that only likes putting files away when there's actual work to do.
Being a leader is not an easy thing and you cannot expect it from everyone. It makes a ton of a difference if you have a good leader in your group compared to if you do not. And unfortunately people consider that the tank should be the leader but that's not necessarily true. Basically everyone could be a leader but the game does not provide the necessary tools to allow for the leaders to do their job unless the group is in comms. It's nice to have pings, marks, macros but using them and even creating them is not intuitive, there are no guides or tips in game on how to do that so naturally, we end up feeling leadership is very hard in-game. The fact that people think that tanks should be leaders only puts more burden on them.
because you get blamed for everything, dps want you to do everything so they can stand on a spot and do their dps rota, oh why didnt you CC this guy and then kick this while spotting him and do your defensive CD jumping over there and pull more and pull them all together instantly so i can blow all my CDS right away and then tell us what youre doing and then tell us what we have to do. oh we died because i pulled. tank is shit. (leaves group)
Sadly true. Tank (and healer) mistakes are much more obvious so people are quick to point fingers. At the same time dps players might make significantly more mistakes but they can just go unnoticed
In true blizz fashion they have the right idea but horribly execute it. Ie aoe stops. You should bot be able to stop 5 casts at once with a button press. However in a balanced world you should never have 5 casters in a pull (GB, CoT, NW, DB....) Blizzard made a healthy change for the game but then left the atrocious dungeon designs in place. Same with tanks, you shouldnt be an unkillable solo machine, and its good that you need to be more aware of your Active Mitigation and defensive useage, but you cant leave tankbuster mobs in every other pack. If you need to use your major defensive to live a normal mob pack you cant have a tank buster mob right after (2 double guardian routes in Mists, GB in general, SV) Same with healing. You want healers to focus on healing more and thats great, but you cant leave the random spike damage in every pull. If you want to put a dot on someone to have them be topped up before big aoe damage pops up thats fine, but it should be a unique mechanic, not a standard pattern for an entire dungeon (DB notoriously where nearly every pull has a dot or heal absorb, GB, SV, ect..) Blizzard wants to make healthy changes for the game but they need to actually adjust dungeons to accomodate that. You cant just leave the bad designs in after removing players methods of dealing with them.
I think you have a pretty good point there. All the changes are somehow intending to make the game better. We even called for some of them. However, at the end of the day, they overdid some, they made some nasty overlaps and stupid requirements on what to have in your group. And while each part isolated sounds ok-ish, when you add all of them together, it's one big overlapping mess that ended up making the game worse.
I have been a pvp player for 15 years multiple glad mounts that started doing M+ in DF s2 because how bad pvp was not in combat but mmr and cr gains. I went from 2600 in ss in s1 to being stuck 1800 for four months. The same thing happened in s4 of DF every was pugging 14s like it was nothing. Imagine going from pugging 14s to you can't even pug a m6+. Another example I'm currently 3k in BGB. How bad would it be if no one can get above 1800 for 4 months. Blizzard has this thing about inflating one season and then capping the next. Making the experience feel terrible. Blizzard shouldn't nerft tanking the healers that complained about it ruin the m+ for the majority of players so satisfied the few. I Tank in m+ and the highest key i done is a 10s. Mythic track gear should've came from 7s or 8s. Most players would've use the gear to finish 10s. Getting it at tens means players don't finish gearing there main so they can't play alts unless you do 300m+.
There's a whole another world(s) past 10s that sweats go and play for the entire season so this is where the gear you get from 10s goes to. And that's fine as end-game type of participating in WoW. You have a point though and it revolves around the fact that the M+ progression curve is not smooth at all this season. There are several huge brick walls that make it easy for players to get stuck there, one reason or another, and that diminishes the whole experience and makes people give up / quit mid way through :(
I got tired of dps pulling extra mobs into the pulls or tagging ahead of me. Theses 'meter-maids' only care about there numbers. I care about a clean smooth run with no deaths. If we are on comms and I have a healer I trust, then sure. ... I can accomodate monster pulls. That's notbthe case 90% ofvthe time
Sadly in pugs you can rarely find people who think or prefer to play the dungeon the same way as you do. There's always someone who wants to rush and pull bigger than what you are comfortable with OR someone who wants to take it slower and play safe. I guess finding a team and staying on comms is the way to go!
If they nerf tanks and fix them towards the end , it feels way too late to log in to able to “compete” that late , they killed the hype at this point I’ll just watch videos of what could’ve been
Yeah, and unfortunately even the "fixes" were not that great. They were just minor pushes in the right direction that definitely didn't make anyone come back but you raise a good point - even if the fixes were major, if they are late, people would still be reluctant to come back
Yep, unfortunately people start to get really picky at +12s and I don't think that matters at all. The "meta" difference will start to show only in extremely high keys in the world first key pushers range which is not what we play, not even close to!
why there are not tanks: 1st: there are tanks. they just dont go m+ or raids. 2nd: playing a tank outside raids is useless - so noone rolls tank to begin with. 3rd: random people complained about tanks beeing op, which just made their success easier - i never got that, now everything is "tuned" but the burden of coordination etc is still 100% at the tank - so why would anyone do that? generally group gameplay degenerated to a point, where a single m*ron would make everyone fail cause esp raids and m+ and higher delves have zero tolerance for not even one player making one mistake ... on the one hand, blizz doesnt want people to rely on addons to get boss mechanics, on the other hand, they implement boss mechanics that are working together like clockworks - its more like learning a choregraphy than playing your class right. i'm a human player, not a machine, nor a ballet dancer. the problem is, we have a small minority always demanding for "harder content" which ends up making everything harder for everyone (looks at delves ...) until 95% of the players go elsewhere to have actual fun, not a second work environment ... cause there is a small minority of people who are in core "competitive" (i think mmos are cooperative anyways ... but ...) but in the end i think: m+ and hero/m raids are for a minority, should reward like another rarity of gear (like shiny silver?) and have better stats and be most likely BiS gear. delves, df raid and normal raid + m0 should give only up to epic gear, which is scaled in a way you see your progress in open world content the gear should never be BiS, and trinkets should give more like "useful usables" (like a nice hbig heal that rescues you in a delve) but not trinkets that alter overall dps mechanics - thats good for raids, but no casual 2needs" this (i consider myself casual, and i rather enjoy proccing nice to haves than going for a rotation altering trinket) harder delves beyond, donno 15? m+, h/m raids should give the other kind of gear, that stronger, but is NOT NEEDED for anything else than m+/m raids etc. but then people aren*t meant to cry "open world doesnt offer any hardship" its not supposed to! maybe its better to keep these two kinds of players rather distinct, instead of nudging "casuals" intp m+ and then wondering it doesnt work for anyone at all?!
In fact we have talked several times on the podcast now that it's probably not a bad idea to separate M+ gear from the raid gear - pretty much the same way they did with PvP and PvE gear. They can even add a separate type of gear for open world/delves w/e else content. It would suck for players who do more than 1 type of content as they'll have to farm different gear but it would solve a lot of other issues, including implementation for talents and skills tuning!
tanking is LITERALLY one of the easiest in the game, I've mained tank since WOTLK. People are just scared/timid to jump into the dungeon pool as a tank as yes its a lot of responsibility but it is so rewarding. People really need to get the nerve up and try it out, and I think if they did, they would quite like it.
You are not wrong, I've tried tanking and it was both fun and beneficial as I learned so many new things about the dungeons... at the same time though, I wiped so many groups and bricked quite a few keys while learning which was unpleasant for me but may be it was significantly more unpleasant for the players which participated in those keys. I ended up enjoying it at the end and I ended up coming out (I hope) as a better player out of it but I can also easily see how the process that I went through could be quite discouraging and make players quit as soon as they start.
It's clearly not that bad. As I constantly get declined for dungeons I've +2'd because my IO score isn't high enough. This game is full of idiots. That's another huge problem.
@@thelegendbehindthecow They could fix it. They just don't want to fix it. They benefit from the current model. People standing around for hours trying to get into groups benefits them, because being logged in doing nothing is still being logged in (engagement), and it extends the life of content (takes longer to gear up). This will never really improve until the player base changes. Until it stops having through the floor expectations and realizes the developers are snakes.
I don't know mate, they clearly want to have more people engaged and what we currently have is definitely not that. More and more people quit because of how things work - I know it as many of my friends that I played with are now gone. So what you are saying simply does not work. There are some devoted idiots like me who keep logging in but many are gone and I'm pretty sure they want to change that.
That's a tall order to ask as it requires a lot of time to commit into playing. You have a point there to which I agree though - playing different roles makes you see the game from different angles and teaches you a lot not only for the dungeons and the mechanics but also for how to play your class/role in better conjunction with the rest of the players in your group!
Yeeeeeeeeeeeah but I don't like it when people quit :( And I also keep playing instead of quitting for some reason so I end up having less people to play with
One thing that I think is keeping more people from tanking is that there is just so much to learn in each dungeon this season. I don't get to play a whole lot because I have a full-time job and two kids, but still I feel like I am just now getting the hang of all of the dungeons.
I would rather agree with your comment. As someone who recently tried tanking and had to "re-learn" the dungeons from a different perspective - there are a lot of tips and tricks that you need to know in each dungeon and if you are making a mistake to learn each on of them and every mistake being potentially a wipe... It actually starts to feel a bit like raid progression which is simply not applicable in M+ setting.
@@theheebs100 Exactly. It's not that I can't do it, I just don't feel like doing it anymore. It's way too time consuming, not fun, and the people are just too toxic. The amount of "research" you're expected to do in this game is absurd.
@@thelegendbehindthecow for sure. M+ used to be about doing some big pulls, and knowing which packs you could group together. Now it feels like each individual pack is a mini-boss
I like the mini-boss reference, I'll surely use that in the next podcast episodes :)
And yeah, the game we play is all about the fun and I am not a tank but it seems they kind of removed the fun factor out of it. At least from a semi-casual perspective if you just wanna try and play the role.
@@theheebs100 M+ doesn't even start to get hard until about +12 or 13, and even then it's not hard in a fun, creative, or interesting way. It just starts getting increasingly impossibly hard (extreme damage output). And it's not that can't do it, I got to #6 (exclusively in pugs) on my server in a past season, it's that it's not worth doing. It's super toxic, there is no meaningful reward, and your "progress" just gets wiped away in a few months. The model is just terrible.
It's all so boring and annoying too. The game is just not fun to play anymore. Playing my character is fun, but the content I'm playing is not fun. Again, your expected to "research" 8 dungeons with 2-3 bosses, and 8 raid bosses every expansion/patch. What a chore. You can't just play the game and learn it as you go. I mean, you can and I do, but you'll be hated and harassed for it. You didn't sit for hours and memorize boss mechanics before queueing? No invite for you.
As I've said for years this game needs fundamental reconceptualization, and that means an all new development team, willing to drastically change the obsolete paradigm.
I have never ever tried tanking or even activated brewmaster (as a mistweaver) but I have watched alot of Sha. You do so much good content and seems like a really nice person - thanks!
Our impressions and experience too! Such a great guy and I hope we get to have him on the podcast again soon enough :)
About the death counter instead of a timer. Just imagine : You are in a dungeon group all is good you are cc'ing and the dungeon is slow but you are doing good. You are in there for 2 hours. Last pull before the boss you wipe and run is ruined. That would be so bad. I hope they don't institute deaths instead of timers just for that reason alone.
That wouldn't happen. If you are not a spec that does absolute highest raw dps numbers you won't get invites to keys. It would literslly just devolve to high burst every pull and wait for cds. Bosses would melt but only dps specs that can melt will be in keys (3x enh shams)
Yeah, as I mentioned my "death counter" delve experience was pretty close to what you describe so I'm definitely sold on that being a pretty bad idea.
I have all 5 tanks above 2500 and main tank at 3005io rating. Tanking this season has been miserable. Super unfun and spikey as hell with proper CD rotation. They took away our healing, our damage, our tankiness and implemented 1 million tank busters, as well as the worst tank imbalance ever. Prot pala is only VIABLE not op it still dies. make tanks great again that will fix healer stress and tank shortages. We're the only role with no class fantasy. Healers heal, dps do bonkers dam, tank is play perfect or die ur nkt a tank really just a worse DPS
That's heavy coming from someone who plays all the tanks, thanks for tuning in! If playing in this season makes you feel like this and it most certainly does the same for many healers - no surprise it's kind of dead already and so many people are quitting the game :(
I'm mainly healer (2.3k) but I also picked up tank for offrole first time since Legion since no dps clicked with me. I'd say the biggest issue is that the game does not teach tanking. I've had tanks in Mists+8 not kicking cake, since it wasn't a problem causing them to die before. I had tanks not using mitigation on trash, since it didn't matter before falling over to two trash mobs meleeing. I had a tank trying to fucking facetank DB 2nd boss because M0 does not teach you to kill the lieutenants first. It also goes other way around - I've had guy convinced he's trash for constantly failing Stonevault, when it was just his healers not dispeling EDNA.
And my god the routing issue in lower keys is insane. Was helping guildie gear his char on alt and we were running low keys. One failed DB2 because we did 165% trashcount and blood dk tried to solo boss from 30% with the affix that heals boss if failed, which took 13 minutes. Two failed SoB 6s by seconds because we did 140% count. Don't think we had a single run below 120% count.
And then there are Blood DKs. I have no idea what the hell people at blizzard though when designing this spec for current expansion. Sure for a veteran keeping them alive is very easy once you know their survivability curve, but for a new learning healer it is a nightmare and they WILL brick multiple runs before they learn how to play around BDK's paper pulls.
For healing IMO biggest stress issue is that tankbusters and heavy dps hitters can overlap. So you need to quickly top up tank, but dps didn't press defensive and now you need to keep them alive through that heavy hitter too. So you're forced to choose focus/let someone die and any wipe is always you fault, even if direct cause is dps/tanks not using their defensives properly.
As for threat, it is a bandaid change to combat tank shortage. You have tanks struggling to keep threat because they are 605 in 624 group running 10s. Also threat scaling is fucked. I don't recall what ilvl, but at some point my Warlock started pulling threat off voidwalker, to the point it is useless. For q taunt pet it should never be the case.
You've shot a lot of problems there and many of them can be tackled if let's say follower dungeons and/or delves were used to teach you how to actually play the game in raid or M+. I do wonder how many people would actually opt in for that learning process before jumping in to the next game type though :)
Great job in the podcasts Wolvy. Been really enjoying watching them. Tank nerfs are fine what is not fine is the dungeon design. First boss in city for example every 15 sec you have major tank buster. Regular tanks just fall over every dungeon that dont really know what’s going on. Second issue is the stuns and interupts. To many times a stun goes off everyone uses there interupt and then 3 casts go off targeting one person and insta kill. Third issue was tank aggro. I don’t know how you were not getting aggro at all. I get it all the time in my shaman and pally. Mostly with bears and dk’s but still and issue. Second boss in dawn one min into the fight I get aggro from the bear and get the tank buster and that’s just a wipe. It’s not on the pull that’s the prob for me.
Can I say I’m so freaking happy about priests and Druid changed and I’m hoping Aug is dead but I have a very bad feeling it’s going to be one tank one Aug and three dps and they’ll make the Aug go out and switch to heals for certain things. They did this with Druid in dragonflight.
Thanks mate!
As mentioned in other comments too - the tank nerfs in vacuum would probably be just fine but with everything else that they changed and the dungeon design / tank busters, it's kind of a disaster now as you pointed out.
As for Aug, I think everyone hopes it dies, may be even high end players that have to play it (not sure but it doesn't seem like all of them are enjoying it) so I really hope you are wrong on the 3DPS 1AUG cook :)
I’ve been tanking since S4 of Shadowlands and love my Brew monk but this season with pugs is just brutal. Healers don’t understand how to heal me, don’t track or know when it add an external and just us being weaker. My Brew was 6-7 I levels higher than my prot war/pally and they felt sooooo much better on 10’s. My monk is as 630 and I got all my portals on my 626 warrior with ease. I knew in beta pugging would be a disaster with the 15 sec death affix and change to stuns and ICD of spells. These two things alone have killed pigging as a tank. The nerfs hurt but those have killed pugging this tier. I still haven’t decided to stick with my Brew or go to Pally or Warrior depending on how the beta goes for 11.1. Sha keep it up there is you and equinox for us Brew lovers
Yeah, way too many changes added up to make it probably the most pug unfriendly season ever. Fingers crossed they learn from it and improve for S2
The tank shortage also has to do with not being able to learn how to tank. I can tank 40 H thinking I'm amazing as we never wiped, heals always had mana, then I step into a M0 1 mistake I'm dead and the group is dead.. . It's a 0 where I'm trying to actually learn and I can't, don't say learn in H as they are so easy mistakes dont matter
Yeah, you can face roll through heroics, eat mechanics in the face or completely ignore them and you'd still be fine. They don't teach you basically almost anything about M+, especially now with the squish and low level keys actually being a lot harder than what they were before.
Thats a lie. M0 is barely an increase from heroic and people spam that the first week of an expansion with no issues. You must be straight up afk.
@@gringoboy701 I think he was referring to the start of the season and yes, you are right, if you are geared, you easily slap the M0s but if you are not OR you do them later in the season with a bunch of other people who are now undergeared as well and they don't get invited into +2s and above, these runs can actually be quite challenging and difficult, even more so if you assume that there are people who are just starting to learn in there.
Hi haven't seen this podcast before, just commenting to leave my opinion on tanking.
FWIW: I'm a competitive player, typically around title level and main healing priest, but this seasons I've been dabbling in dps as well and in general playing more casually (so many good games to play rn omg). I play a lot of MMOs and although I still prefer to be support I do also tank at a high level in other games like ffxiv (paladin main).
WoW has several major issues with tanking.
The main factors in my opinion are; threat management, pacing, bloat, responsibility overload, and the communities reaction to those previous issues. We can talk about extremely punishing outgoing damage but that's more a tuning knob issue (and a big one at that) and I'm focusing primarily on core design philosophy.
Threat management: WoW is a lot less lenient in terms of the tank threat multiplier. There are very few other games, to the point that I can't think of any off the top of my head, where threat management as a tank is actually a major factor. I find new tanks including myself struggling to gather mobs and maintain threat, especially at the start of a pull. Dungeon layout and mob placement also makes this more challenging compared to other games.
The pacing in WoW outside of raid content is very fast, which then compounds the threat management problems. This is most noticeable in m+.
Also due to the need for fast, consistent threat application, and kicks and utility in a typical pull in a key, tanks in WoW have experienced significant button bloat. The lack of any form of homogenization across specs and roles has also compounded this issue.
Continueing from that button bloat, tanks have too much responsibility. Between threat management, kicks and stops, utility, defensive rotations and routing, on top of the regular pressure of being the "leader" of any given group, and the knowledge of if you die, it's most likely a wipe, tanking in WoW becomes a sort of mountain of responsibility that the vast vast majority of players new and old do not want to tackle, whether it's because they feel unsure of their abilities or simply don't want to have that much pressure when playing a game when the alternative like dps has so much less responsibility on a moment to moment basis.
Lastly because of everything above, and because the current end game modes are so punishing for failure, the constant pressure of timers in m+ or even simply the efficiency focused community in non timed content, this funnels the playerbase into being vastly more critical of tank and support players if they don't perform optimally, further scaring away anyone who may want to give the role a try. Again, why would someone deal with all of the above, AND get yelled at for it, when they can just do their rotation and kicks as a dps.
Overall I think WoW is a victim of itself. It's a 20 year old game that has been in an arms race against its players the entire time to make continually more challenging content. As great as this is, don't get me wrong I love the adrenaline of timing a push key, there is a threshold where the complexity of moment to moment gameplay becomes unfun for a large portion of current players and begins pushing away new players and personally I think DF and especially TWW has crossed that threshold. Unfortunately I'm not sure blizzard, or the playerbase, have it in them to reverse course. The things that are needed (cutting button bloat, reducing overall complexity and punishment, homogenization across roles) tend to be more of a one way street, it's very hard to go back to simpler design, and that's not even mentioning their current war on weakauras atm.
Yeah, I've been saying this for awhile now but the game is not going to attract new players because it's way overcomplicated and there are a lot of barriers to entry. Obviously, going back to 1-2 button rotation is also not the answer but they've definitely crossed a threshold and I hope they will be able to revert back at least a little bit to make the game a bit more friendly in general.
I only play tank. Normally I'm really consistent with my performance and do really well. But sometimes I do mess up and when I do i get trash talked and called piss tank but I never complained about DPS not interrupting or dying all the time.
Yeah, DPS mistakes are often not THAT obvious although they still cost you the key, however, it takes longer for it to show up and take effect. When the key ends and it's overtime because there were few too many deaths (probably because of missed interrupts or failed mechanics), everyone just leaves silently and moves to the next key. But when the tank makes a mistake, it's most certainly a full wipe and everyone will get straight to your face :(
People saying tank damage is too high at the moment is crazy to me. Yes, I have outdps'd damage dealers in my keys, my highest this season was 1.35 Million overall, but that's comparing the higher end of the spectrum. If you look at top keys, the tank usually sits around 50% of a damage dealer's dps. And that is comparing the best to the best, which is far more relevant to compare the dps ratio between tanks and damage dealers.
Very nice bit! I do play DPS every now and then and numbers differ so much from key to key as they depend on how the tank pulls, how big are the pulls, etc. And looking at the ratio is always a good source to figure out how I performed compared to both the tank and the other DPS. And to add to your point, I think 50% of the DPS damage is a nice mark to aim at
I’ve been gearing a tank, but I haven’t dared to do m+. I feel the routing and toxic ppl is why I’m not doing m+
ppl are toxic because the environment inclines toxic behaviour
It's really not that bad, just jump on in
@@tjf73 lol Lets be honest with the lad.
It is that bad.
If you don't know what to pull, and you don't know the routes?
They will let you know. Many won't let you know so nicely either.
However, mythic0 isn't as bad causue allot of players are new, but this is also bad
because you'll be taking WAY more damage than you should cause no one is interrupting.
This alone often makes a new tank player think he's a bad tank cause he's dying so quickly.
In reality it's the DPS and heals ect not interupting.
It's quite the mess. Blizzard Put way too much power over the tank in the players hands.
that shouldn't be the case.
You do get criticized i looked up city of threads route and I guess it's not the new meta and instantly was being told wtf am i doing even tho we still hit percentage @tjf73
Dont be afraid, if youve been gearing through delves youll be pretty overgeared for the early mythics. Youll be able to learn while building up understanding and score.
A small cd for mobs after a stun, knock up/back, disorient, or other ccs before casting again on trash mobs would fix a lot of the dungeon issues. And an inability to cast an interrupt on you’re target during the 3 second silence period would work wonders. Also… shits hitting tanks really hard. Being a blood dk right now is really rough in high keys. Obviously it’s doable… but come on. Throw us a bone on the health bar volatility.
Yeah, the roll back on stuns/interrupts that they did was very welcome, especially when you add on top the current dungeon design with enormous amount of CC required. Sadly, I haven't seen any changes in that direction for S2 yet but it's early days and I'll definitely provide some feedback on the forums on that matter so fingers crossed!
I've tanked many dungeons with guild groups, actually really enjoy tanking, but PUG tanking is a different beast. The best way to handle it honestly, is realizing "I'm a tank, without me this group falls apart..." and just play like the rest of the party are NPC's. If someone is toxic or really gives you a rough time, just leave and report them for toxicity. You'll be in another group within 10 seconds, they will be queuing for 20-30 mins. It's unfortunate, but with how toxic pugs are, it's the only way to get over that "Social anxiety" aspect of tanking.
Sometimes if someone is omega toxic, I'll just ignore them and keep playing. Saves you a lot of trouble and you won't have to listen to them at all any more (probably makes them even angrier as they get no replies). If the key goes well, awesome, if not, well you didn't waste any unnecessary emotions on it and as you said, back to queue and on to the next one.
40:00 Holy Priest Hype!
My solo m+ cook I think it pretty good but likely hard to do. Remove dungeon scaling from key stone level make it rating level. So if you have 5 people get put together ranging from 950 rating to 1050 rating then the dungeon is scaled to 1000. You would need to remove rating for failing the timer but I think you could refund some rating for dungeon completion. You also have brackets for rating like say every 1k rating where you either can't drop below or it takes multiple failed runs to do so (basically reward break points). I think it should also allow 1 or 2 people que not a 100% solo personally. Also don't think you do score per dungeon it is just over all score and the system maybe in the background tries to give you different dungeons regularly enough it feels random.
That is a pretty interesting take but I don't think Blizzard would implement something with punishing rating - meaning they take away rating from you if you fail. It'd be nice to see some experiments in that direction though, most definitely!
All I do is tank. Where are all the dps that know how to use defensives tied to mechanics and use their interrupts and stuns when it matters?
They are playing PoE or whatever else game is out there right now :D
"Healers adjust" is where they're all at.
Silken Court for us felt like the worst fight to prog, but once you get it into p3 and actually kill it, it was surprisingly enjoyable
We are yet to have some serious prog on it after New Years. I just hope it doesn't take us forever to get to p3!
This season is hard on players and that’s trickling down to players freaking out with a hair trigger.
I’ve been tanking since BC. This is the worst season of tanking ever. They did an M level squash, affix change, healing change, self preservation nerf AND a new expansion all within 6 months.
And as a tank I feel like the squash is the worst part. People think everything below a 6 is a joke going into the new season and a 2 is basically a 12 now. And that bites people in the ass, a lot.
You have a good point there. The start of this expansion had a LOT of changes happening pretty much at the same time, some of them were plain bad, some of them not so much, may be some of them were even OK on their own but when you combine everything together, it ended up being relatively bad overall :(
45:20 Here we have a MAJOR par of the problem, it is what anyone changing to tank faces. Top it with not knowing the role, or even the fights annd it is not a very plesant experience.
The problem i have with tanking is:
1 I am not immortal or even close, just easier to keep alive. Should not need my long CD survival skills for trash mobs in TW/heroic dungeons. Bosses or harder dungeon sure, but for trash...
2 do crap damage (my dps with 50lower ilvl do more)
3 expected to know every mechanic in every fight
24:40 If you never had a problem with threat, you are either lucky or do small pulls where dps dotn jump the gun. Getting threat back when 3 dps focus on a mob/pack each is not that easy.
Ofc these dps generaly run away when they get agro, making it harder for tank to pick up the mobs, so the healer draw agro and there is a wipe. "tank didnt hold agro"
@@ssu7653 an enhance shaman can rip aggro off a boss after 60 seconds with some bad luck. it just happens
I think you have a good point there - it's one thing to learn the dungeons and the mechanics as DPS as you can pretty much be absent and not much would change but learning as tank (or healer for that matter) is very stressful as mistakes are costly, they lead to wipes, which lead to hate and toxicity and it only escalates from there :(
34:28 yes they have increased hp but at the same time they did so they also increased the amount of damage the mobs do making it a net zero effect
Yeah the idea is that healers will have to cast more now to top you off but since the damage is increased as well, that just doesn't work. So they eventually end up buffing the healers too so they can top people off quicker now making it even more NET ZERO effect!
I play a 632 Paladin Tank, I only play to get my Portals from 10s I currently have 6/8 10s Timed. I will say it is hard to find a healer and even harder to find a decent healer. I use all of my ultility constantly and am often not far behind the healer in heals and I often out DPS alot of the DPS on trash. But as soon as I make a mistake, it burns the key :(
Unfortunately you are spot on. I think it's around 10s and 11s where one single mistake from the tank OR the healer can lead to a wipe and potentially brick the key. And I simply think that they should design the dungeons in a better way as this would be quite fine if it happens in higher keys but it shouldn't be THAT hard to play in 12s and below as basically this is still a point where you still get rewards. Call me biased but this level of the game should be much more accessible!
I've tanked since vanilla technically, but as a class that's supposed to tank instead of tanking as a Shaman in vanilla dungeons, BC realistically. Something I saw happening in DF, and frankly it's still happening in WWI is how absurdly resilient all the tanks are. Sure, it's fun to be an immortal demigod. For you. But it really ruins everyone else's experience and frankly contributes heavily to WoW's longstanding community problems. I was trying to show a new player dungeons in DF and it was impossible because of these selfish tanks ruining the entire experience.
If you don't need other people, there is no incentive to make nice with folks and work on teamwork. And you see this getting worse and worse and worse as time goes on where tanks became completely overpowered. I really feel M+ accelerated this trend-tanks need to be much tougher relative to the game of the best to do Mythic challenges. The raid design that uses two tanks instead of eight requires the two tanks to be disproportionately geared and powerful to perform their roles adequately.
So true, if tanks can’t pull big packs. Kicks, dispelled, cc will be more used by the dps as they don’t need to do mega dps numbers.
As I said in the podcast, in DF if there was no timer in the dungeons, the tanks would never invite other roles to their key as they wouldn't need them. And while I agree that this is a huge problem which causes so much more problems on its own, unfortunately, things didn't shape out for the better once they nerfed the tanks a bit in TWW as now they started disappearing. Sure, it's because of many different changes that happened to the game with the tank nerf just being one of them but even if we agree on bad timing, I'm still not sure what the best solution would be so that tanks are not Gods but they also keep playing their role
@@thelegendbehindthecow I'll tell you what I said in the forums. M+ should be removed from the game. Mythic should also be removed from the game. Both modes have created too much variance between different players and split the player base which is good for no one.
M+ has done to dungeoning what Arena did to PvP, and I don't feel that point can even be argued, particularly given all the gnashing of teeth about the God Comp in DF.
@@solasslym3 I definitely disagree. M+ is the only reason I play the game. Having a system that you can infinitely push and basically find the level that you can/want to play at is priceless. If that's not in the game, I would lose interest doing heroic dungeon even before the first week of the season is over. Mythic raiding is a nice challenge for me to do on the side. It's hard but I enjoy it.
Both systems have flaws, they are far from perfect but they are the only reason that I play the game. Controversial, yes, but definitely many people feel like me so deleting them would kill huge percentage of the people playing.
@@thelegendbehindthecow Yeah. It's a difficult scenario because I understand the people who love it love it. But it really has ripped the player base apart. It wasn't so big of a problem back when there was only Normal and Heroic raiding, but the extra tier of raiding and infinite scaling has really destroyed levels in the community by splitting us up into 'can' and can not. It's Gearscore on steroids; forgive me if you don't get that reference.
I don't mind that you disagree. In your shoes I would too.
In short, people playing DPS are the problem. HEAL ME, stop standing in stuff, HEAL ME, I wouldn't have to if you'd kicked that mob. What DPS telegraph are you healers are a necessary problem, we don't like you, think you're all trash and hold us back and down. Tank gets a lot of the same but if we both quit your toxic group within 15 seconds we can get another group.
Get this. I PvP, PvP is far less toxic than M+ and after getting to 10's the season they started M+ I've not been back since. The problem with this game is it doesn't correct bad play and it's all set up as competitive, NOT co-operative.
What do the 3 dps in your dungeon party want to do. Be no1 on cc's and damage mitigation or DPS and damage done? I'd put a barrier between HC dungs and M+ like the proving grounds. Don't enter the proving ground and record a result you can't enter m+. If your best is Bronze you can only do say 1 to 5 keys. Silver higher brackets and Gold the free pass. Blizz could easily tune a proving ground to trial by class/spec for this. End of your trial you get scored on the mitigation, damage done interrupts etc a class and player test.
Heroics are probably not a good entry point for proving grounds but you have a point that a lot of people already eluded to in the other comments. May be the proving grounds could be scalable follower dungeons or improved delves but something like that would be nice to have in-game for sure!
I played war with in beta and i reported how bad m+ was and all i got was this is not the final build ext ext. Whats the point in telling them the problem and they ignore the feed back because they know best. Most wow players are ready to jump ship to a new mmo.
Well, I've provided a lot of feedback during PTR/beta too and some of them they listened to and made changes. Some they didn't. I think it plays a huge role on how you present your feedback and what arguments you use. May be it's me but I've noticed that they act much more often on posts that are well-argumented and show that the person posting definitely took their time to explain what the problem is and supposedly how to fix it compared to posts that are mainly just "QQ it's broken" without any specifics, arguments or suggestions.
Anyone kind enough to give some timestamp on what topic start at what time?
Oh dear, I could swear I put them on but apparently they are missing :(
I'm currently out of town on vacation but as soon as I'm back tomorrow I'll add them in the description of the video and they should show up on the timeline as well. Apologies!
No problem no need to apologize, mistakes happens every now and then. Also Thanks for the timestamp 👍
@@ValkyrionX2 Yeah, cheers mate, they are finally there :)
I think having a death limit (and having it be a generous-ish number of deaths) in the 2-7 range makes sense. It gives new people a chance to take it slow and figure out what the mobs and bosses actually do. A lot of people learn best by just doing it. In 8’s and up, we bring the timer back.
7’s are where things start to actually hurt for most newer players, and it’ll make them more conscious of when to use their defensives and better execute mechanics. Well, that’d be the goal. Who knows if it’d work, but I think it’d be worth a shot.
I don't know what generous number would work though. As I said in the podcast, I had pretty bad experience with the 5 or 6 deaths that you get in delves as a group. Obviously that number is quite low and I'm not sure what it needs to be to feel better. And even if we figure out a number, not sure if Blizzard will comply and let it be high :D
I tank but hate doing it never go higher then 11 but bdk is just so much fun
Imagine dungeon/role design where you wouldn't hate it :)
Hot takes:
1. Remove a bunch of trash in dungeons, remove that additional routing requirement OR build something into the UI to show % on the mobs (yes, there are WA for it).
2. Make dungeons 3 bosses, 15-20min max. There is a reason delves are popular, it’s quick, relatively fun content.
3. Reduce toxicity by building a better default UI that teaches players what caused their death, what they could have done to mitigate it etc.
4. Remove key depletion, you’ve already wasted N minutes of your life, that’s enough of a punishment (let alone if the group disbands and you get no chance at loot either). If you must, just switch it to a different dungeon, but keep the same keystone level.
5. Keep the big damage, but don’t make it so that the big damage is unhealable due to GCD issues thanks to overlapping mechanics.
Many mobs is fun for tanks it is the amount of spells and abilities that is not fun
@@havtor007 what I mean is make it so you kill 100% of the trash to clear the dungeon. Can still have those massive pulls :)
im all for the 3 bosses per dungeon. max 20 min. im not about the key deplete tho. there shouldnt be a key period. just que into what you want. keep the timer. make it like delves. cant do a 10 without doing the same dungeon on a 9. queing into a dungeon like a rift from d3 and just pick your level the same as a delve would be bad ass. i really want all mechanics taken away from trash. some is fine but put the mechanics on bosses make them 7 min fights. let us pull wall to wall trash like we do in ffxiv. let us also do damage as healers as we do in ffxiv. i really hate that the game revolves around the top 2%. dungeons could be so dam fun but they make them hard on purpose for the top.
Maybe they should just make only specific trash and only that trash that exactly hit 100 percent so there are no routes that can differ
Some really nice nuggets here, thank you!
Agree with most of it, specifically fan of the shorter dungeons and 3-boss limit. It feel really bad to commit something like 40 minutes in a dungeon and then brick the key on extremely hard last boss fight (like Nokhud Offensive for example). That's something that most people would probably enjoy.
Depletes should be there in some form as otherwise it will start feeling a lot like a tournament realm - you go in, practice the first pull and if it doesn't work you just reset. That won't be enjoyable. But having some kind of insurance or "ticks" before the key depletes could probably work for the better.
And lastly, per Kaiser's comment, I kind of like variety in the trash and the routes that you can take. Not the quantity - that's too much sometimes. However, having alternatives and different type of gameplay based on the trash that you are pulling is often fun and engaging - for example, Atal'Dazar and do you go left or right - completely different dungeon!
I will tell you what happened save you 2 hrs.
Tanks arent flashy tanks responsble for all the CC and interrupts allong side healer. Dps go zugzug and flame
It's never the DPS at fault though, it's always the tank or the healer! :)
@@thelegendbehindthecow facts. 😂 i play healer and this season the dps players are something else. Its wild
They buffed threat for top end players where enhancement shamans can pull threat 20 sec in the pull.
They deal 3mill plus dps so its a problem on that level.
Careful with your words there or you might get us enhancement shamans nerfed :P
did brewmaster developer quit? i havent seen any attention to it in g knows how long
I think they always have a developer for each class and spec but it seems that some of them work much harder than others :(
Paladin is the only properly tuned tank. it doesnt feel op. youre still vulnerable. all others just feel bad in current content. so those that didnt reroll just stopped playing most likely
Kinda lame that Tanks feel like if they are not unkillable gods they don't wanna play. Tanks should worry about tanking healers on healing Prot Pally healing is off the charts. Nobody wants tanks to be weak but chill out with the immortal crap guys tanks soloing the last 50% of a boss when the group wipes isn't good gameplay and it feels like that is what you are asking for.
@mattharvey7799 lol you're reaching with this jump to conclusion. I didnt say tanks should be unkillable. There should be a reasonable amount of mobs you can pull, including single bosses, and at least have a modicum of responsibility for your own survival. DK, dh and monk simply do not have the cool downs to make it through a lot of fights at a certain level.
with so much responsibility being on dps to kick critical casts, its feeling pretty uncomfortable to pug anything beyond a 10.
I dont know if game design, tank design, encounter design or what is the principle issue, but they feel compounding.
As discussed in the other comments - I think this season is combination of a lot of changes that overall made the pug experience dismal. Some of the changes are probably fine and good in insolation but if you add up everything together, it ends up being one big mess and definitely not a pug friendly environment/design :(
im really the oppisite I hate 12's and higher the damage is already so high in these dungeons that it turns into almost impossible, the affixs I love kinda weird.
Depends on which affixes you love! And yeah, 12s and above gets a little bit into the "big sweats" territory although you can pug your way into a reasonably high level. I like that last part but I can also easily see people just sticking to 10s and 11s. In fact, that's what I do on many of my alts!
@thelegendbehindthecow after they fixed the floating orbs I don't have a problem with in fact it's one of my favorites because you don't have to use any utility to get them. The worst imo is the healer absorb affix if ur team isn't helping you and it causes more deaths than any other affix because you are using healing cds and dispels when there are already so many dangerous dots
Oh, don't get me started on the absorb affix... It's NOT a healer affix for f*** sake. Yes, the healing option is there just so that you can have a backup plan if things go way south with dispels but this affix is anything but healer affix. And the fact that some classes can deal with it while others cannot is possibly the WORST design decision that you can ever make....
Why people think that soloq will magically add more tanks/healers to the game and queue times will be short for them?
soloq will only split playerbase even more and there will be less people in lfg, and that's all.
Depends on how they implement it! If there are additional incentives to play as tank/healer then may be the queue time problem will be better/solved. As per dividing the community - again, depends on how they implement it as people have suggest it do it only for high or low keys, do it parallel, do it as a replacement. A lot of "ifs" there and you are correct to ask questions but I think that if the implementation is good, it will only complement the game and make it better!
Tanking is the toughest role and requires so much prep and headaches . Why so little sign up for that role
Unfortunately, true :(
The dungeon squish, makes throwing new tanks in to what is basicly a plus 10 without having the lower keys to learn on, the community who are incredibly toxic and impatient and assume every tank is MDI trained with routes and %s set up, all the responsibility of the group with 0 extra reward, i dont play tank but id have no ossue with tanks getting more gold, crests of even one guranteed peice of loot at the end of the dungeon they deserve it. Also nerving the least played role, is madness
Yeah, the nerfs came on top of many other changes and it definitely feels like a step back. Ball is back in Blizzard's park though, as you said, no one would object to having more tank in game and they need to figure out how to do that. Be it augy runes, gold, loot, whatever, it just needs to be fixed!
As a tank main with a healer alt, i dont see the upside of solo q, i get in to groups fast anyway. I would rather have more control of group comp then random.
For info i play of meta tank and healer.
I think M+ Solo Queue could be fun if Blizz would add more M+ achievements and make all rankings spec-specific, e.g. 0.1% titles per spec. Also, Solo Queue would do a better job at finding players that actually know how to play as it would filter out boosters.
What key levels are you playing though? I kind of do the same but my experience is quite bad this season. Yes, as tank/healer I can get into groups relatively fast on "homework" keys but then the whole group ends up waiting in LFG for the other role to fill up. And as soon as I start pushing for IO which would be keys just above my IO range, both on main and alts, the queue times start to become obnoxious. So in that regard I could see a solo queue system being helpful, of course, if implemented correctly.
@ Been doing mostly +11 keys on both tank and healer. I normaly pugg to the 3k mark but this season i clocked out at around 2,8k. Was just not fun.
Maybe for lower keys it would be nice with a solo system, but for me i would not play that unless it gave tanks and healers some kind of bonus for signing up. Then maybe.
Yeah, this season is definitely much harder. I usually do 3k on multiple characters and go beyond on some but this season I barely got to 3k on my main and I don't even want to be remotely bothered going beyond or getting there again on alts :(
It feels like the seasons are just way too long. I got burned out healing keys. I would like shorter seasons and more of them per expansion. Just cycle more dungeons into the mix. Make the first season always all of the new dungeons though please. I'm playing other games and will come back to heal keys again in the next season, but not before. I'm just bored with the dungeons, they suck.
I have a followup to this do you think that the dungeons should roll over to different dungeons?
If so did you play before they changed each season?
The big thing about seasons not changing so often is that it would bring in an incredible high amount of ilvl increase to the game.
Yeah, I think everyone would enjoy even faster cadence for the seasons although it's mile better now than what it was before. It's probably not plausible for them to do it though as they obviously cannot create so many new dungeons to keep everything fresh and they are sort of starting to run out of old dungeons too since they are bringing back Mechagon for a THIRD time now. May be some kind of a rotating dungeons in and out mid season could do some tricks and help!
The problem with tanks being able to survive for a couple minutes with the entire group is you feel like part of the Justice League that isn't Superman. Sort of a "why are we here?"
I agree that everyone needs to feel powerful, but I don't know the last time I've honestly felt powerful as a healer and part of that is because your damage is terrible and you don't have much agency because the DPS have to push their defensives or they die anyway.
I'm not sure about this because I have never healed, but do you think it would be better if most classes had fewer defensives but healers were buffed?
@@theheebs100 That has been a topic debate among a lot of healers, I honestly don't know. It feels good as a dps to press buttons at the right time to stay alive, but it's also trading agency from the healer.
I kinda wish healers could do significantly more damage in PvE if they don't have to heal or make tradeoffs with healing thruput.
@@amera35 i play all the tanks and am learning most of the healers. disc and mw feel fun because I actually do meaningful damage. everything else has big "why bother" vibes
Once you go to a little bit higher keys, it often ends up being a two-fold scenarios in many high damage situations. Everyone either knows and presses their defensives when they need to and if they do, they usually survive without much trouble and don't need much healing. OR noone presses their defensives and they die, no matter how much you heal them as you can do some insane plays to save a couple of situations but you cannot do it all the time. This kind of makes the healers redundant as it's not whether or not you can heal through something, it's whether or not the rest of the group presses their personal and group wide defensives. So looking at everything from that perspective - I think that having fewer defensives overall would change the design of the damage profiles in dungeons thus making healing better.
Dev’s bright ideas to nerf tf out of tanks and healers in beta is what happened. They made the least desired rolls require minimal skill so here we are.
Casual…CE and weekly 10s. My guild does first 4 mythic bosses each week. I have KSM and ilvl 629. I can’t even get invited to 8s let alone 10s. This is the worst M+ season there has been.
There is a gap that gets formed around each key stone level going up and jumping from one key stone level to the next. There are no shortcuts and usually you have to do all dungeons at the current level that you are at (let's say 7 or 8) before you can successfully start queuing for the next. It's a process, it's tiresome, it's long and you have to do it all over again on every key stone level but at the end of the day don't get discouraged - just follow the steps and the processes and you will get there!
I have all the tank specs and have stopped mythic due to pugging issues.
It is a very bad season for pugging indeed :(
All the tanks committed self deletion
WTB free character restore service for them then!
@@thelegendbehindthecow IRL I mean. They all jumped off the 9th floor of the skyscraper. Head first of course.
@@edcaelum Blah! I don't think the character restore service can help with that :(
As a main tank since Legion, pugs have just been complaining about routing most than ever this patch, and the worst part is they are complaining I'm not using routes developed in week 2 to 4 while I am keeping up to date with current routes improvements week to week. I also link the route before every key, no one says anything and then from their pathing on some map it is apparent most of the group doesn't even bother opening it.
My experience is that tanks linking routes in lower keys up to like 10 and 11s usually doesn't do much. Players consider these level of keys easy so they don't pay attention to the route and just want to press W. It works much better in keys past 11 although I had some wild experience there as well with the tank saying "Bruh this is the route, they play this at the +18s" in a simple +12 which apparently never works the same way for a pug..... So pretty bad experience overall but I always enjoy and respect tanks like you who link the route in advance as I always look at it and I try to prepare as best as I can for it. That doesn't seem to be the status quo though :(
people expect so much from tanks, but also dps get unironically called toddlers by some high end tanks. it's an unreciprocated amount of effort, and if tanking was made to have less expectations then there would be more tanks. i plan my route and i make considerations for dps and current party needs in my 12s which is all fair enough, but i also determine when lust happens, i communicate all the CC and interrupts, i decide brez, and after all that i not infrequently get blamed for bricked keys.
im not against having a group leader. im not against being the group leader. however, a lot of people dont want added responsibility when they're trying to relax, so that puts all that responsibility on a single person. it's like a guild leader; being that person is a personality type, and it's a hard pass from most people.
if you want more good tanks in your world, take my of the onus to announce when you want lust instead of getting mad when it isnt when youd expect it, tell the group which target youre going to interrupt with an added attack here ping in your focus macro (everyone should have a focus macro for their interrupt so you don't miss it), and most importantly actually use your utility and CC without being asked for it. these things aren't difficult but people are too obsessed these days with max damage and it's causing leadership personalities to begin finding the game unfun, like an employee that only likes putting files away when there's actual work to do.
Being a leader is not an easy thing and you cannot expect it from everyone. It makes a ton of a difference if you have a good leader in your group compared to if you do not. And unfortunately people consider that the tank should be the leader but that's not necessarily true. Basically everyone could be a leader but the game does not provide the necessary tools to allow for the leaders to do their job unless the group is in comms. It's nice to have pings, marks, macros but using them and even creating them is not intuitive, there are no guides or tips in game on how to do that so naturally, we end up feeling leadership is very hard in-game. The fact that people think that tanks should be leaders only puts more burden on them.
Bro there are no tanks in lfg. Like I filter for 'Has Tank' and it's literally 0
Unfortunately that's my experience as well most of the time :(
because you get blamed for everything, dps want you to do everything so they can stand on a spot and do their dps rota, oh why didnt you CC this guy and then kick this while spotting him and do your defensive CD jumping over there and pull more and pull them all together instantly so i can blow all my CDS right away and then tell us what youre doing and then tell us what we have to do.
oh we died because i pulled. tank is shit. (leaves group)
Unfortunately this describes pretty standard M+ experience
Toxicity towards tanks for any death/mess up. Tanks are harder to play, but you get punished by elitist dps for “sucking.”
Sadly true. Tank (and healer) mistakes are much more obvious so people are quick to point fingers. At the same time dps players might make significantly more mistakes but they can just go unnoticed
In true blizz fashion they have the right idea but horribly execute it.
Ie aoe stops. You should bot be able to stop 5 casts at once with a button press. However in a balanced world you should never have 5 casters in a pull (GB, CoT, NW, DB....) Blizzard made a healthy change for the game but then left the atrocious dungeon designs in place.
Same with tanks, you shouldnt be an unkillable solo machine, and its good that you need to be more aware of your Active Mitigation and defensive useage, but you cant leave tankbuster mobs in every other pack. If you need to use your major defensive to live a normal mob pack you cant have a tank buster mob right after (2 double guardian routes in Mists, GB in general, SV)
Same with healing. You want healers to focus on healing more and thats great, but you cant leave the random spike damage in every pull. If you want to put a dot on someone to have them be topped up before big aoe damage pops up thats fine, but it should be a unique mechanic, not a standard pattern for an entire dungeon (DB notoriously where nearly every pull has a dot or heal absorb, GB, SV, ect..)
Blizzard wants to make healthy changes for the game but they need to actually adjust dungeons to accomodate that. You cant just leave the bad designs in after removing players methods of dealing with them.
I think you have a pretty good point there. All the changes are somehow intending to make the game better. We even called for some of them. However, at the end of the day, they overdid some, they made some nasty overlaps and stupid requirements on what to have in your group. And while each part isolated sounds ok-ish, when you add all of them together, it's one big overlapping mess that ended up making the game worse.
I have been a pvp player for 15 years multiple glad mounts that started doing M+ in DF s2 because how bad pvp was not in combat but mmr and cr gains. I went from 2600 in ss in s1 to being stuck 1800 for four months. The same thing happened in s4 of DF every was pugging 14s like it was nothing. Imagine going from pugging 14s to you can't even pug a m6+. Another example I'm currently 3k in BGB. How bad would it be if no one can get above 1800 for 4 months. Blizzard has this thing about inflating one season and then capping the next. Making the experience feel terrible. Blizzard shouldn't nerft tanking the healers that complained about it ruin the m+ for the majority of players so satisfied the few. I Tank in m+ and the highest key i done is a 10s. Mythic track gear should've came from 7s or 8s. Most players would've use the gear to finish 10s. Getting it at tens means players don't finish gearing there main so they can't play alts unless you do 300m+.
There's a whole another world(s) past 10s that sweats go and play for the entire season so this is where the gear you get from 10s goes to. And that's fine as end-game type of participating in WoW.
You have a point though and it revolves around the fact that the M+ progression curve is not smooth at all this season. There are several huge brick walls that make it easy for players to get stuck there, one reason or another, and that diminishes the whole experience and makes people give up / quit mid way through :(
I got tired of dps pulling extra mobs into the pulls or tagging ahead of me. Theses 'meter-maids' only care about there numbers. I care about a clean smooth run with no deaths. If we are on comms and I have a healer I trust, then sure. ... I can accomodate monster pulls. That's notbthe case 90% ofvthe time
Sadly in pugs you can rarely find people who think or prefer to play the dungeon the same way as you do. There's always someone who wants to rush and pull bigger than what you are comfortable with OR someone who wants to take it slower and play safe. I guess finding a team and staying on comms is the way to go!
If they nerf tanks and fix them towards the end , it feels way too late to log in to able to “compete” that late , they killed the hype at this point I’ll just watch videos of what could’ve been
Yeah, and unfortunately even the "fixes" were not that great. They were just minor pushes in the right direction that definitely didn't make anyone come back but you raise a good point - even if the fixes were major, if they are late, people would still be reluctant to come back
easy, i stopped getting invited to 12+ 'cause i'm not a paladin. I don't wanna play a paladin. I play dps now instead
You will have the same problem with dps if you're not meta
@Mor_D_Kaiser exactly
Yep, unfortunately people start to get really picky at +12s and I don't think that matters at all. The "meta" difference will start to show only in extremely high keys in the world first key pushers range which is not what we play, not even close to!
why there are not tanks:
1st: there are tanks. they just dont go m+ or raids.
2nd: playing a tank outside raids is useless - so noone rolls tank to begin with.
3rd: random people complained about tanks beeing op, which just made their success easier - i never got that, now everything is "tuned" but the burden of coordination etc is still 100% at the tank - so why would anyone do that?
generally group gameplay degenerated to a point, where a single m*ron would make everyone fail cause esp raids and m+ and higher delves have zero tolerance for not even one player making one mistake ...
on the one hand, blizz doesnt want people to rely on addons to get boss mechanics, on the other hand, they implement boss mechanics that are working together like clockworks - its more like learning a choregraphy than playing your class right.
i'm a human player, not a machine, nor a ballet dancer.
the problem is, we have a small minority always demanding for "harder content" which ends up making everything harder for everyone (looks at delves ...) until 95% of the players go elsewhere to have actual fun, not a second work environment ...
cause there is a small minority of people who are in core "competitive" (i think mmos are cooperative anyways ... but ...)
but in the end i think: m+ and hero/m raids are for a minority, should reward like another rarity of gear (like shiny silver?) and have better stats and be most likely BiS gear.
delves, df raid and normal raid + m0 should give only up to epic gear, which is scaled in a way you see your progress in open world content
the gear should never be BiS, and trinkets should give more like "useful usables" (like a nice hbig heal that rescues you in a delve) but not trinkets that alter overall dps mechanics - thats good for raids, but no casual 2needs" this (i consider myself casual, and i rather enjoy proccing nice to haves than going for a rotation altering trinket)
harder delves beyond, donno 15? m+, h/m raids should give the other kind of gear, that stronger, but is NOT NEEDED for anything else than m+/m raids etc.
but then people aren*t meant to cry "open world doesnt offer any hardship" its not supposed to!
maybe its better to keep these two kinds of players rather distinct, instead of nudging "casuals" intp m+ and then wondering it doesnt work for anyone at all?!
In fact we have talked several times on the podcast now that it's probably not a bad idea to separate M+ gear from the raid gear - pretty much the same way they did with PvP and PvE gear. They can even add a separate type of gear for open world/delves w/e else content. It would suck for players who do more than 1 type of content as they'll have to farm different gear but it would solve a lot of other issues, including implementation for talents and skills tuning!
tanking is LITERALLY one of the easiest in the game, I've mained tank since WOTLK. People are just scared/timid to jump into the dungeon pool as a tank as yes its a lot of responsibility but it is so rewarding. People really need to get the nerve up and try it out, and I think if they did, they would quite like it.
You are not wrong, I've tried tanking and it was both fun and beneficial as I learned so many new things about the dungeons... at the same time though, I wiped so many groups and bricked quite a few keys while learning which was unpleasant for me but may be it was significantly more unpleasant for the players which participated in those keys. I ended up enjoying it at the end and I ended up coming out (I hope) as a better player out of it but I can also easily see how the process that I went through could be quite discouraging and make players quit as soon as they start.
It's clearly not that bad. As I constantly get declined for dungeons I've +2'd because my IO score isn't high enough. This game is full of idiots. That's another huge problem.
Some things we'll probably never be able to fix. And one of them seems to be people fully judging only based on your IO score.
@@thelegendbehindthecow They could fix it. They just don't want to fix it. They benefit from the current model. People standing around for hours trying to get into groups benefits them, because being logged in doing nothing is still being logged in (engagement), and it extends the life of content (takes longer to gear up).
This will never really improve until the player base changes. Until it stops having through the floor expectations and realizes the developers are snakes.
I don't know mate, they clearly want to have more people engaged and what we currently have is definitely not that. More and more people quit because of how things work - I know it as many of my friends that I played with are now gone. So what you are saying simply does not work. There are some devoted idiots like me who keep logging in but many are gone and I'm pretty sure they want to change that.
People in wow who cant play all 3 roles ahouldnt play
That's a tall order to ask as it requires a lot of time to commit into playing. You have a point there to which I agree though - playing different roles makes you see the game from different angles and teaches you a lot not only for the dungeons and the mechanics but also for how to play your class/role in better conjunction with the rest of the players in your group!
12:53 lmao😅😅😅 we were already here , nerf tanks and this is WHAT you get , it’s easy , just quit the game and come back season 3 or 4
Yeeeeeeeeeeeah but I don't like it when people quit :( And I also keep playing instead of quitting for some reason so I end up having less people to play with
Brew is so weak this season
Praise Sha for keeping it alive then!