Flag reform was a mistake
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ธ.ค. 2023
- Did we REALLY need to change all those flags? Reflections on Minnesota and others.
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When I first saw the new Minnesota state flag design, and the CGP Grey video that rated all state flags in how much they were in accordance with the North American Vexillogical Association, I said to myself "I know there will be a J.J. video on this." And I was right. I also agree with your critique, mostly. I think the "good flag, bad flag" rules are wrong. They are too dogmatic and try to create a unified theory of flag design for distinct and diverse peoples and places. They aren't even good guiding principals because there is too much in terms of variability.
The flag of Tampa, FL is not terrible because it doesn't follow the GFBF design rules, it's an objectively bad flag. Too busy, wild, and without a unifying theme. It doesn't know what it is trying to say. Even though I am not a resident of Minnesota and never have been, I always thought they did the "seal on a bedsheet" design better than most. The star made of stars within the circle is distinctive. The idea that the new flag of Mississippi is "bad" because it has words on it and a non-hyper geometrically designed magnolia is ridiculous. Limiting flags to now more than three colors is a holdover from the tricolors of Europe. Their flags are famous. By the GFBF rules, their flags are fantastic. But they are not distinctive to outsiders (Germany and Belgium; France and Netherlands; Luxembourg and Netherlands). Chad and Romania have the exact same tricolor. You only have so many colors to deal with in a tricolor after all.
Ultimately I think the movement has fallen victim to the cult of expertise. You have a guy and an organization that says he's the authority on good flag design, so you are expected (indeed, culturally pressured) to adopt his rules. As a result, we are getting meaningless, post-modernist, identical flags designed by committee to be as inoffensive as possible and to not say anything for fear of violating rules.
Anyone with more than half a brain can distinguish the flags of Belgium and Germany ...
The same people that say that words on flags suck are completely fine with brazils flag, it’s about style and there are almost no rules regarding what looks good, just that it is
I remember hearing that GFBF also has stated that you should be able to turn a flag to black and white and have it still be recognizable. This is why European Tricolors do not work.
Also Maryland's flag. It breaks all the rules but it's great and iconic af. @@br-jj6re
And then there's mexico with an eagle eating a snake on top of a cactus. Try and tell them they have to change that
Wow, JJ having an opinion that's simultaneously contrarian and conservative? That's nuts
Conservative is contrarian in a communist state.
Lololol
I didn't realize "use modern tech to make modern things like this modern art conservatives hate" is a conservative take
@@werothegreat Yeah this is a video against conforming to strict ideas and proposing innovating because the innovation is good rather than innovating for innovation's sake. Just because an idea is against other progressive ideas doesn't mean it isn't progressive itself
@@AMageOldAsDirt it complains about strict ideas...to conserve old flags.
I feel like there was justified backlash to minimalist brand logos, but now everyone's just embracing flag minimalism without seeing any parallels.
Art trends come and go over time. Perhaps in the (near?) future some TH-camr will gain traction advocating for more ornate and meaningful flag design. A state seal on an elegant blue field perhaps ...
Flags aren't logos.
@@dsmith7787 Tradition should give the dead a vote, but not a veto.
I'm mad at this because the reason I joined the "flag reform movement" was to make flags not only look better, but to make each state flag more distinct from one another. Sure, California's flag breaks the rules, but it's iconic and incredibly distinct. Same thing with Washington State, all because of that green background. I'm also mad because the winning design for Minnesota WAS unique and had character to it with the tricolor bands on the fly, the inverse triangle in the hoist (a unique feature we haven't seen on nearly ANY other flag) and the north star with it's changing thickness. The pure blue fly and equilateral star made something once distinct now bland, uninteresting, and boring to look at. Less may be more, but too much less leaves you with nothing at all. It looks like a flag designed by comittee, which it was. Minnesota does not deserve something that bland and boring, nor something as indistinguishable as the old flag. We had something good imo, and somehow we snagged failure from the jaws of success.
Thing about the rules, as I ever saw them presented, is that your flag Should break them... just... it should be the smallest possible break for the greatest possible effect. It's less 'thou shalt make your flag exactly like this' and more 'though shalt not be excessive in your diviation from this'. ... naturally, while that works fine for comparing 'how good is this flag' it's kind of bad for 'this is how to design a flag'.
No idea if that's the official position, mind you, but it seemed to be what was being said by those I encountered who were promoting the use of the rules.
you can't have your cake and eat it. either you have a very unique flag or a generic flag. it doesn't surprise me that JJ has come full circle considering he's artsy and artsy people like unique
You could actually see the un-simplified at 14:37 - as well as the committee responsible for ruining it. This is why you should commission art, rather than vote on it.
You think it’s the flag they’re after! It’s the culture and people that flag represent
As a Minnesotan who wanted the flag changed I'm also disappointed with the new flag. I personally really liked the actual flag design that won the competition, the tri color flag, because it was pretty just looked good, but the changes made did make it very boring and dull
I agree, I really liked the original design, but it's so dull now.
The flag is good (not necessarily great) in my opinion. I see it, and I see Minnesota. It's simple in the way that the Japanese flag is simple. It's distinctive and will stand out in a list of flags of the states. The problem will come if it is used too often as a basis for city flags.
I liked my seal flag thanks. It's what I knew my whole life, I saw it everyday in school and now they changed it and I don't get any say
The new Minnesota way too simple 😭😭😭
Yep. The Tricolor version was decent, but this one just looks like the MN United jerseys in flag form.
No matter what we think of flag reform i think we can agree that New Zealand should have opted to change their flag to the "Kiwi with laser beams shooting out of its eyes" design
Nope, the one with the Kiwi farting out a rainbow was the best flag
no the pepe as a kiwi flag is best
As a Kiwi, I can confirm we've basically adopted it as a unofficial third flag, behind the regular one and the silver fern.
@@SteelRobot1God, New Zealand is cool
The one with the sheep 🐑 with the Hokey Pokey ice cream 🍦 designed by a 6 year old
I think it’s worth noting that the final design we got wasn’t the design people like CGP Grey were hyped up for, the big box of teal used to be a decent looking tricolor of a nice teal, dark green, and white, and the star was more distinctly shaped with alternating thickness. They took a decent minimalist design and reduced it even more, and when you reduce past the minimum, you’re just lacking.
The finalists were just objectively amateur (in the worst sense). The legislature mandated a quick, cheap conclusion. The advertising exec who chaired the committee was obviously relieved to pull “good enough” out of the jaws of “objectively infantile”. The embarrassing proceedings are on TH-cam to watch. Among the finalists only the “loon swooshes” could be called “designed”, and that just barely. Low effort submissions. Low budget committee. Saved at the bell by a professional with an opinion.
Ditching the tricolor works well enough. The much greater error was replacing the distinctive star with a middling one.
Exactly, hoped the video would acknowledge that
I think it's saying something that many of the US' most beloved state flags are the ones that overtly break NAVA's rules. California's state flag has text on it and South Carolina's has a complex design of a tree. Yet travel for a few moments through either state and you'll see how popular both of these visual symbols are among their populace.
there is nothing distinct about the NAVA's rules. They are stupid modern art rules which means no creativity. having a flag with the state seal is the best option since the seal carries with it traditions of the state. the idea that it must be simple enough for a child to draw is stupid.
A seal can be used for many traditional purposes, but why the heck is putting it on a flag a good idea? If you change the flag to something better that is more in line with NAVA principles, the State Seal doesn't disappear from the universe. It's just not on the flag anymore. It still exists and can still be used in other ways, including official State business. Seals were originally meant for documents, where you can see them up close and actually read what they say. Texas has a State Seal, and yet there isn't a single person who is upset that the Texas State Seal is NOT on the flag of Texas.
@@MrChickennugget360 those rules make a pretty good standard for 'how well does this flag do it's job?', but a terrible set of instructions for 'this is how you make a flag'. The idea shouldn't be to follow them exactly, but to make sure that when you inevitably diviate from them, the diviation has the maximum benefit possible for the 'cost' imposed by doing so.
@@laurencefraser Personally I love my Texas flag. It has a unique design and communicates our story as we were a country before becoming a state
@@benjaminwatt2436 One reason the Texas flag is an icon is because it IS simple and memorable, and it is NOT a "Seal on a Bedsheet".
I’ve always loved the flag of Rhode Island where I’m from. It’s recognizable, unique, simple and meaningful. But Good Flag Bad Flag would insist that having the word “hope” and a non-abstract picture of anchor are terrible sins
i don't think that the anchor is a bad symbol, but I would agree that writing RHODE ISLAND across the flag is probably not the best move.
nah, it's fine under new flag rules. Simple layout, cohesive color palette, anchor's a relatively simple shape and distinctive, and the "hope" is pretty excusable since it's in a banner that simplifies well on smaller renderings.
I don't think white backgrounds tend to turn out particularly well in real lighting, but design-wise it's respectable.
Yeah, RI is fine. Even if you removed the "Hope" banner, you could still use the blue color for a vertical stripe on the hoist or the fly. It would still look great.
Distinctiveness is the only thing that should matter when designing a flag
@@disconcerningcitizen2224 I agree...and the Rhode Island flag is distinct among the 50 flags.
The saddest thing about the Minnesota flag is the original version of the winning flag design had a great balance of minimalism and character, but they took out the green and white stripes, ruining the color scheme, and made the star much less distinct
The new Minnesota flag looked perfect with the tricolor bands, then they ruined it with the plain blue fly. It looks like a pack of Marlboro cigarettes now.
They should have kept the distinctive star. The tricolor was okay but I think this version is still good, and looks better when hung vertically.
committee-think kills potential every single time.
Had to look it up, but I agree. The star was also quite nice on the original winning design.
It seemed to me the tricolour would benefit from a rearrangement, though I didn't put in the time and effort to check this assumption.
Any configuration of the tricolour would have been better than what we got in the end, and what we got in the end is better than both the original and the other designs that were up for election.
However, it will forever remain as the pinnacle of wasted potential. The tricolour with its unique colour scheme was way up there with my favourite flags ever.
Minnesota tri-color with that shape proposition was absolutely amazing. This flag is… bland. Like, they took a perfect flag for the state and just made it worse
FUGLY
I know right. Minnesota literally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
The colors represented water, land, and snow. You don't get any more boring than that. The new flag is a river and the north star with MN's shape. Simple, good, us.
@@jayteegamblehow is that more interesting?
It wasn’t amazing. It was also very bland. Tricolors are boring and overdone and I don’t understand why everyone pretends they’re awesome.
As someone from Maryland I like your argument about culture mattering more than simplicity. Every mall has a "MD Flag" merch store, but not really because of just the flag being cool but also bc it's a point of state pride
I think it's both though, and he kind of defeated his own argument by bringing up NYC. You don't need a good flag to be proud of your local region or have local merch or whatever. But if your flag sucks, it simply won't be included or celebrated along with the other local symbols. NY merch stalls aren't going to be putting NYS flags next to their "I♥NY" stuff, but MN merch stores likely will after the change.
I was surprised he didn't bring up Maryland's flag. That's one that even these vexillology redditors will say they love *despite* it breaking all the "rules" of flag design, without a hint of self-awareness.
@@coleciervo5454I don't disagree with your point; Maryland is a great example of a flag that many people find objectively ugly but many other people love and think is a perfect flag. Being from Maryland myself, I love our flag and have one hanging on my wall at college.
But you said it breaks all the rules, and I don't agree. What rules of vexillology does the maryland flag actually break? It's distinctive. It uses symbols - it's based on the coat of arms of the Calvert family that owned much of Maryland in colonial times. There's no lettering or seals. It is simple - you might not think it's simple, but a child can definitely draw it from memory, and I know this because every second grader in Maryland learned to draw it, myself included. The only rule it breaks is having 4 colors instead of 2-3, and that's not a big deal imo because two of those are black and white. Do the colors go well together? Some will say no. But that's the only "rule" that I can see it might break.
@@optimisms Good rule-breaking all around.
I'm really surprised at "the Dutch really like their flag and you see it everywhere". I live in Amsterdam and as I'm pondering now I cannot think of any place in the city where I would be able to find a permanent flag flying, even on the royal palace or the town hall (it's more common to see the city flag than the national flag I think). It's basically only on King's day, Liberation day and (half-mast) on Remembrance day that people put out a flag. Also, on boats and when your child celebrates graduating high-school, for some reason it's common to put out a flag with the school bag hanging from it. The simple color orange, now THAT evokes a sense of national pride! Especially on King's day and sports events, the Dutch will be covered in orange, not red, white and blue.
The original Dutch tricolor is Orange, white and blue.
@@gsmiro The original dutch tricolour didn't have a specific shade for the stripes. As long as it was some shade of orange/red, and some shade of blue, it was fine. Flags often turned orange due to bleaching from the sun, or they were made orange because that was a cheaper and easier colour to manufacture. But there were no strict rules, and in some old paintings you do see a stark red at the top, instead of orange. The red and orange flags were also somewhat used as differing political symbols, in the strife between statists and orangists (republicans and monarchists, grossly oversimplified)
The red and orange versions continued to be used, sometimes with differing intent, but sometimes just both as a general symbol for the Netherlands, until the 20th century (broken up by a brief stint of French occupation), when the shades of the three bars were made specific by royal decree. Favouring the red stripe over the orange one, since the orange stripe had become associated with the NSB (Dutch nazi collaborator party).
I swore the flag was orange until to my dismay I found it was another red white and blue
Cheese cubes with little dutch flags in them everywhere
I had that thought, I see more rainbow flags nowadays
It’s more the lawmakers faults, the submissions I’ve seen for these flag contests have been very good, however, they always end up going with a more simpler modern design. I think there is nothing wrong with the new guidelines. It is the decision makers who are putting down unique modern flag designs
I actually unironically wish they went with the laser eye bird flag
It has been heavily politicized that's why. The base design of the proposed Minnesota pointed out by bigots as a Somali flag. Which is a dog whistle
I think Mississippis new flag is a good in between.
I think there is nothing wrong with the guidelines if there wasn't also the heavy push to change the 'bad" ones. If it was just this eras flag style and a couple flags adopted it then it would stand out. But the issue is when they are attacking bad flags it just makes them a sea of generic flags no better than the seal flags but without the history.
Yeah like the three finalists for Minnesota would have all been pretty good and instead they watered down the most inoffensive finalist so much as to remove what made it good in the first place.
I think that the SOB flags do genuinely fail as flags and that’s a big part of why the Colorado flag is embraced while the New York flag is ignored. The role of a flag in a modern context the “knife being able to cut meat” aspect if you will is to be a recognized and utilized symbol for a community. Maybe the flag reform movement flag rules are to stifling but we still genuinely need new flags for much of the country. Perhaps only two rules for flag design really matter in 2023 1. Be recognizable and 2. Be distinct. The SOB flags still fail at that even if you don’t believe the new flags being proposed succeed at it.
That’s a fair compromise
What’s always puzzled me about the flag rules is that according to those rules, Brazil and California have bad flags. That’s insane, Brazil’s flag is one of the easiest to find on a wall with flags and is one of the most recognizable flags in the world. This is also true for California, people around the world know about the California flag. So these rules don’t make sense. I think you know a flag is bad when the place is famous but no one knows the flag. Flags like New York state come to mind.
If you think flags exist to sell merch, then yeah they fail as flags. My state has a "non-failing" flag according to CGP Grey, and it's quite old, but I still never see any citizens fly it. State flags communicate civil authority, like on police uniforms and government buildings, and SOBs do that just as well if not better than these corporate logo flags.
@@urisoltz819 I think the flag rules are a good starting point but shouldn’t be applied to strictly and California is the poster child for why.
Too right! If anything the strictest rules of "good flag, bad flag" ultimately hurt it's most important ones. A flag has to be recognizable. If it does that it has succeeded, if it doesn't it has failed.
Coming from a Minnesotan, the new flag just screams "compromise" to me
Isn't that very Minnesotan?
Compromise is Minnesota Nice.
The Brazilian flag is hard to draw but very well-designed and iconic
Once you know the components, it's not that hard. You don't need to draw all those little stars on the globe and those characters on the ribbon; the yellow losange and the blue globe with a sash make it distinctive enough from a distance (like, on a ship). That's what matters.
@@williammkyddewhy does it need to be distinct from afar? Please tell me.
@@_loss_ Because this is the practical purpose of a flag. Or of any other sign. It carries a message that has to be perceived unequivocally.
E.g., at sea, it might matter which flag a ship you see flies: your country's or an enemy's. Or at war. Or at some border crossing.
Brazil has a great flag. It is unique, but somewhat simple and makes you interested in its back ground. I never look up a flags meaning, but Brazil was one of the few exceptions
Minnesotan here. The dude who won the flag competition honestly nailed it. Lots of other incredible submissions. The state committees edit of the flag was stupid and I hate it.
Honestly I think the "edited and finalized by a government committee" aspect of these new flags is much more influential in their samey-ness and boring qualities than the "following the North American Vexilogoical Association's Guidelines" aspect is
I know! I find it so inferior. I was going to say that I struggle to see how the state committee could not think the same, but upon second inspection it makes a lot of sense. It's even more simplified, "Easier for a kid to draw from memory" (😒) and more closely follows the "Vexillologist's Bible", AKA: Good Flag, Bad Flag. (Especially the over-limiting "Use 2-3 Basic Colors".)
What did the winning entry look like?
@@rebootmyth8753 Same base as what went through but with a white green blue tricolor and overall deeper tones.
The guy who designed the flag also approved the eventual design and helped them too
I think a lot of these problems could be fixed by people remembering that the good flag bad flag "Rules" are just guidelines. They're meant to make an alright flag. Not great, not terrible. If you want to make a great flag, you need to know when to break them. The guidelines should be a sense check, not a checklist, and flag designers need to remember that when drawing.
That said, Utah's new flag is good.
Though you can't really blame people when the guy who made the guidelines also seems to take and present them as rules as well
utahs new flag isnt bad it just feels more like a corporate logo than a cultural symbol to represent a group of people to me
I like it too
He should've just simply named them as 'Flag Guidelines' and not that stupid 'GOOD FLAG GOOD, BAD FLAG BAD' naming he did for it.
Utah's flag is terrible
The flag of my home state, Colorado, is very distinctive, modern, and constantly and proudly used by locals as a symbol of Colorado and its culture. It was adopted in 1911. It also prominently features a red C, which is a major "no-no" by current flag rules.
It should be noted that although the Colorado flag displays a big red C, it does so in a way that works well with the rest of the flag - similarly to the O on the Ohio flag. The real objection is to walls of text, not a letter or two.
Anyhow, the "flag rules" should only be considered guidelines, not an end in themselves.
@@alanlight7740 For what it's worth, I'm Ohio-born and never realized that ring was supposed to be an "O" until some radio pundit made the news for mistaking it for an Obama flag.
If anyone says "Colorado's flag is bad because it has a letter C, which is against the rules"... then, they clearly haven't read the rules!
"Good Flag, Bad Flag" doesn't present them as dogmatic rules: it presents them as guidelines, which can be broken as long as you know what you're doing. Indeed, it specifically names Colorado's flag as an example of how to break the 'no lettering' guideline, and still come up with a great flag regardless!
Colorado created such a good flag because it knew the rules - but it acted as their master, not their slave.
Actually the North American Vexalogical Association rates it as one of the best flags in the world and the C on it doesn't bother them at all.
When I was in DC there are several displays of every state flag around certain monuments and you can pick Colorado from them even when it is slack
And yes as a native Coloradoan, it is so very good. We can both use it on circular and rectangular items as well because of the C on it.
Am an Australian, I actually love the Colorado flag, I bought one (sometime 2018ish), I don't even own an Australian flag.
The only flag I own is a Colorado flag. And CCP grey only rated it as C tier. His opinion is pretty mid :/
The appearance of US state flags *at a distance* is very important. Traveling across the country it's always exciting to see a new state flag that is distinct, flying beside a capitol building, an office park, or even a shopping mall.
Not to mention the appearance of the flag when scaled down is arguably more important because of digital media, though the same design principles achieve both goals
As a minnesotan I was so excited to change our genuinely terrible flag, and there were loads of really awesome unique designs submitted, but instead they chose an incredibly boring mediocre flag. Im very dissapointed
I agree it's mediocre - well, bland. I quite like the pattern, but it needs contrasting colours, not light and dark blue.
Take a look at the Somalian flag. The flag change wasn't for you- you aren't represented by it, and your opinion and life does not matter to the people who are making these changes.
I really liked the Nordic inspired ones. It’s a nice nod to the heritage of many people in the state. There was one that had the Nordic cross but shaped more like a four point star that I was GUNNING FOR from the moment I saw it.
Nothing about the new flag says or symbolize Minnesota in anyway.
@@trish8964 The shape on the left mimics the shape of the state
As a native Utahn, I will say that our mountains are a tremendous point of pride for our people, and even if they were on 49 other state flags and DC, we would still be proud to have them on our flag. It’s not about the opinion of outside observers like you or CGP Grey, a good flag should be meaningful to the people who live there. The new flag is something that many of us are already identifying with much more than our old blue bell flag, which is only traditional in the sense of it being something that the Utah government and no one else has been using for its entire lifetime. The beehive and mountains are symbols that are far more relevant and traditional than any seal could ever be to us.
Sorry for reposting this a couple of times, I was having some account issues.
As someone not from Utah, the beehive is the symbol I know best even from the old flag.
@@dionysus6892yeah the beehive is definitely the symbol of Utah
As a New New Mexican, I'm very happy with our neighbor's new design. I like the new Ute flag, and I don't mind having to drive back to four corners to get a new, updated keychain.
I also like how the new flag incorporates not only the mountains but the red rocks and the Great Salt Lake
The beehive really makes the new one though
Holding too closely to the "proper guidelines" of flag design can result in some pretty anemic designs. It's ok to break a rule or two. The California flag is a good example. It has text, and a rather detailed bear. Still iconic and beloved.
Welcome to the age of corporate brand designing. Unfortunately, modern designs all fall under the annoying geometric rulings and all look like they belong on some tech startup website. Nobody should care about what a bunch of squares at the AVA should say about anything to represent themselves.
Minnesota was soooo close to having a banger of a flag, then they fumbled the ball on the goal line.
Tbh as a Minnesotan I'm going to ignore the final version of the flag and am going to start putting the tricolor flag on everything.
At least the new flag is representative of Minnesota in that regard.
As someone who was also a part of that mid-2010s flag-shaming, you’ve hit the nail on the head regarding how I feel about some of these reforms. Mississippi and Utah picked great flags, but Minnesota and Pocatello now just feel bland and uninspired, and almost corporate in a sense. Makes me wonder if NAVA could use a new/clarified set of rules, namely adding “these are not to be taken as gospel” and “not every random small town needs a great flag”
I really liked the new Utah flag. It is a great rebranding like even Georgia began to associate itself with peaches
Excellent summary. I also agree that the Mississippi and Utah flag redesign work because they kept bold choices that leaned heavier into the 5th guideline of "be distinctive" which seems to be the one everyone overlooks.
Totally feels like corporate rebranding. It's like the "corporate Memphis" art style but on a regional level. Just like every tech company's effort to appear unique and innovative, it ends up hollow and conformist. Isn't minimalism on it's way out?
Even the flags you don't like, (Minnesota and Pocatello) were better than the old ones!
NAVA actually DOES say that there are exceptions to all their rules. They actually say this in the "Good Flag, Bad Flag" document that JJ presented at the beginning:
"All rules have exceptions. Colorado’s “C” is a stunning graphic element. Maryland’s complicated heraldic quarters produce a memorable and distinctive flag. Military unit flags often need letters or numbers. California’s design recalls a historic relic from 1846. All six colors on South Africa’s 1994 design have deep symbolic meaning. But depart from these five principles only with caution and purpose"
This is a bit of a fake outrage, since nobody claims objective truth in regards to aesthetics.
You're missing an important third option. We could instead opt to just make more distinctive flags. Because the problem with the state seal on a blue background is that they're not distinctive. And I think being distinctive is the most important rule. Number five should be rule number one and in fact I think maybe all the rules should be reversed and I don't know that we need geometric shapes either. I like flags that have shit on them like trees and moons and bulshit
Washington's state flag is a boring seal on a bedsheet, but at least it's distinctive...
I still want a better flag, lol.
@@KingBobXVI I think the problem is that the rules are in reverse order. Oh wait I said that.
So I guess additionally to add some content I think that we should probably not listen to cgp Grey about anything especially since he's a copyright troll
@@orsonzedd - I didn't say you were wrong, I was giving an example.
And tbf, Grey isn't a copyright troll. He may be overzealous and annoying with his own copyrighted material, but as far as I'm aware he's not buying smaller creators out to strike their content in other videos (like patent trolls do), nor is he striking videos that are completely unrelated.
This isn’t about a flag, I assure you. What do conquering armies take as the ultimate symbol of victory? The standards colors banners and flags of a vanquish enemy and people’s. Nothings changed only the manner in which a people are now conquered. Instead of swords they now use multiculturalism
The flags that people like are the ones that are distinctive, even if they aren't the simplest design: Maryland has a somewhat complicated flag, but people love it because you can't mistake it for anything else. It's the easiest way to say "Maryland" with a design. The problem with "seal on a bedsheet" design is that it's very difficult to tell one seal from another, especially at any kind of distance.
There are plenty of European Flags that use distinctive symbols like Spain, Portugal , Wales and Croatia.
I'd say, as an European, that the kinda synthwavesque vibe these redesigned flags have, with their pastel colors and their geometrical forms, is very distinct and very different from the flags we got in Europe. Even more modern city flags in Europe tend to not go at all in this direction : you often get bright and contrasting colors, and most of the time a plain one color field with a complex symbol with many curves, details and/or colors, inspired by historical coats of arms. Look the French cities of Arles, Douarnenez, Lille or Coulommiers modern flags/emblems, you'll find them very different from those new American flags. And of course most city flags in Europe are traditional, only a handful have been modernized.
I really like berlins flag and that one Russian city with the bear wrestling with an atom
@@goldenfiberwheat238 that's Zheleznogorsk, and it's flag is basically a local copy of what in the US is called "the seal on the bedsheet flag" - "the coat of arms flag". In Russia CoA of a region is more valued and thus a region flag is quite often the contents of the CoA spread over the whole flag. There are some exceptions to that rule, that being all of the republics and autonomous regions inside Russia as well as some other regions.
@@GeneSch I like it
@@GeneSchIf you want to see something ironical check out CoA/flag of Kalevala, Russia
2014 JJ: "Anime is a mistake."
2023 JJ: "Flag Reform is a mistake."
How times have changed 😢
Time to create an anime about flag reform.
annually jj: that hairstyle was a mistake
@@ticklezcat5191 or a flag about anime reform?
Bring back our real flag here in Canada, The Red Ensign. They, quebec, the french have been wiping out our real BNA, UEL, English, Scottish history for many decades now....replacing it with only french, native history all over the country....changing the name of towns, streets, bodies of water, buildings......sick stuff going on.....we are living in revisionist times and no politicians will touch this.....they are all crooked, lying scum bags, on the take...$$$.
I stand by both!!
There are so many amazing flags throughout the world that break flag design rules. The first ones that come to me or Brazil,Angola and Mexico. They have writing seals or complex designs yet they’re more identifiable than most of these new city flags.
I'm quite happy with Maine's new state flag with the blue star, pine tree, and yellow background. I really think it stands out from other flags and find everything about it quite appealing. It's also a bit funny that it's actually based off of the state's original flag before being turned into so called "seal on a blanket." I do think states and city's of North America should try to more attractive flags, but I don't think we should eliminate all character from them. California's state flag is an example of one that should technically be considered "too complicated" for these new minimalist standards, but anyone arguing for a change of that would be missing the stellar design that is that flag. So there is a happy medium here; not the "seal on a blanket," but also not the new Minnesota flag.
I am A Canadian who works on the sea.
The Canadian Maple Leaf flag does little for me on land but I find it impressive at sea while flying from a ship. I’d almost say that flags were born for the sea.
Often, country flags were designed for easy recognition by ships and on battlefields. The English and Scottish flags are both simple until they were combined into the Union Jack, but that's recognizable enough so it's no issue.
That's probably one of the only contexts in which they are used nowadays because you're seen as a radicalized bigot in most places if you proudly wave your country/state flag lol
Unfortunate that Minnesota is landlocked to the highest possible degree 😔
I agree and it's sortve funny that state flags are getting redesigned so hard because you can't fly them on ships. You have to use the country your ship is registered in.
@@matthewjungmann12 It has a lake on one side
Ted Kaye himself doesn't apply the 5 principles dogmatically and unthinkingly. The "Good Flag, Bad Flag" booklet has a section where Ted Kaye approves of flags that break his rules because they ultimately look good, but CGP Grey and others disapprove of these same flags as violations of the rules.
Yet even CGP Grey approves some blatantly rule-breaking flags simply out of of personal taste
@@regabrielexv yeahhh, at the end of the day it's just become a whole battle of preferences
Saudi Arabia’s flag comes to mind. It has text on it but it looks amazing
@@goldenfiberwheat238 It looks amazing to me to, but I wonder if its because I can't read it. It is the shahada ("There is no deity but God; Muhammad is the Messenger of God"). I wonder if the Israeli flag would look as good if it had the great shama on it ("Hear oh Israel, the lord is God, the Lord is one"). Or if the American flag had first line of the US constitution on it in cursive.
@@IsYitzach I once saw the American flag redesigned as the Saudi flag and it looked great. Instead of a sword it had a musket and it said in God we trust and instead of green it was blue
I actually like the new Minnesota flag, but I wish they had kept the tricolor stripes. I also like the proposed Utah flag and I feel that it is distinct in a creative way that actually means something, similar to the redesigned Georgia flag that I am a big fan of. I think that at least these new flags, while potentially boring and conformist, are a great improvement on the seal on a bedsheet style that preceded them. It may be a little unfair to compare city flags to state flags because unless you are from that city or are a flag nerd you probably will never see most of them, meaning they will still feel distinct to those residing in the cities they represent. But I do agree that too many cities are rushing to change their flags and are making them into a modernist mess (I really like the current Milwaukee flag for example, it is distinctive and fun and it works well for something like a city flag).
I think overall you are right that this is the kind of civic engagement that we need, as well as needing to get rid of racist symbols. I think it is only a matter of time before a state redesigns their flag to something actually really cool and transcendent, but baselevel improvements need to be made first.
It BARELY means something. The fact that one of the selling points is "it has a Minnesota in it" is laughable.
@@radaf4429 at least you can say "hey that's a minnesotan flag" at a distance and not squint to see what seal is on the flag
Its weird how the supposed solution to getting rid of generic and unoriginal seal on a bedsheet flags is to make an even more generic and unoriginal flag with the exact same simple ruleset as other flags.
I can definitely see the new Utah flag gaining "cultural worth" in the future as a symbol and icon of the state. Same for Mississippi's
Their is still a subset of people angry and a whole comission aimed at restoring the old flag
@@SuperHappyBrosthose mofos worship a nation of aszhats. The Confederacy always was an enemy of the working class
If a flag has to take time to do that, it isnt good enough
Regardless of the cultural worth angle, I think the new Utah flag looks fantastic.
@@maxwellli7057nah
I think you’re totally right that people are religiously following the 5 rules and that it is a shame that the new flags are all following the same stylistic trend. That being said, by and large the old flags are rarely used and not recognised, and the flags that are being held up as good are used much more, Texas and Chicago use their flags far more than New York. You say that New Yorkers use other symbols, which is right, so maybe having a bad flag isn’t a problem, but nevertheless, that flag has failed to do what it was supposed to do, represent New York.
You mention it may not be a problem and I think that's the point. A place starts from "we want icons" and not "we need a flag". If you don't have the icons and your new flag is bland, what's the point?
Flags can fill a void if a place has no existing icons. NYC has so many icons already that people use, so a flag isn't needed. Philadelphia as another example has the Liberty Bell and the LOVE sign, and Pennsylvania has the Keystone. These are recognizable and simple shapes. They could make a flag with Gritty on it, but people would probably just use the existing icons. Chicago really has no visual icons. We have pizza and hot dogs and a shiny bean. So, the four stars on the flag are popular. You can make any four red things in a row and people understand the meaning.
For my former home state of New York, they should just replace its old 'seal flag' (one of the worst) w a 'big apple' or 'I ♥ NY" flag. The folks upstate will love that! 🤭
@@pikapomeloI guarantee you - if New York had a well-designed recognizable flag, they’d be using it everywhere.
I live in California and I see our flag on so many products and in so many places it’s quite amazing. I once ordered a car part and it had CA flag printed directly on it, for no other reason than to brag that it was made in the state. One good reason for this ubiquity is that CA flag is just cool and nice to look at. Old Minnesota flag was the opposite of that.
Even considering what you say, then if say for example New York were to change its flag for something more representative, a completely white canvas with "I ♥ NY" in the center would be a far more significant flag for the city than any other flag that would follow the 5 arbitrary rules being held as the norm for good flag design, so I think the thesis of the video stands
Can I just say I discovered the Art Deco inspired flag of Lincoln, Nebraska. Beautiful. From 2021 and nearly justifies this flag reform madness.
A child could NOT draw this from memory, 1/10. In all honesty tho that's beautiful I love art deco.
Yo, that Milwaukee Flag ROCKS! Packed with Symbolism.
That thing doesn't just tell A Story, it tells MANY STORIES!
I feel like the most important things to consider when designing a modern flag should be:
1. Aesthetics: is it visually compelling?
2. Personality: is it unique, or at least made with a bit of a personality; is it memorable?
3. Representation: does its design reflect something about the place it is meant to represent?
Even if I may not personally like it, if a flag can check these three boxes, then I can respect it. A great example of this is the Maryland flag, which I personally hate, but it is nonetheless a very striking and memorable flag, and I can see why some people like it. My personal favorite is the New Mexico flag. But either one of these deserves a lot more respect than messy kitchen sink flags, the boring state seal flags (you can have a seal and you can have a flag, but why have a flag if it's just going to be a picture of your seal?), and these spineless redesigns which while inoffensive, aren't really likable either.
So true
What gets me about the Minnesota flag is that they had a really nice design, but threw it away when they ditched the triband for a solid ice blue. It's still better than the original, but will forever be a reminder of what could, and should, have been.
I agree. For me, a flag should not be so simple and monotone that it is no longer distinctive. I think the tricolor, by adding more colors, made the flag more distinct while still being simple.
@@taylorphillips7030 Alas, it's another victim of the growing Minimalist movement. It reminds me of that kid who won a LEGO contest by submitting a single yellow brick and calling it either a worm or a snake.
@timesnewlogan2032 Minimalist is the word I wish I thought of. Minimalist flag designs may be better than the overly complex, but they're still not good compared to a well-balanced design. I think you're correct that this is a holdover of the recent minimalist movement.
@@taylorphillips7030 They went from one extreme to the other, jumping right over the balance that the tricolor offered.
The tri-band was too noisy, and the white stripe represented "snow" which was a bad idea (Minnesota is not Alaska. Its gets very cold in winter, but MN also has 100-degree summers). It also made the flag too similar to others like Texas or Puerto Rico which are better known. The single light blue area works much better because up next to the angled edge it looks like a lake shore and MN is the land of 10,000 lakes. Sometimes you can get both more meanings, and greater meaning, out of a much simpler design.
The general rule should be:
Do people like it?
Is it unique?
Holy shit. I started with "Oh, JJ is just being contrarian as usual, outright admitting that he's no longer in favor of something just because it became popular" - but I'm actually halfway convinced.
As a Louisanna (the ones with the best seal state flag) I find myself in a more centrist viewpoint. I think modernizing flag design can help states feel more distinct from one another and represent their modern cultures much better.
But god the number of ‘Blue flag with mountains and rivers’ is absurd, it basically falls back to the same problem of flags being undiferengable but for an entirely different reason.
If Louisiana were to have a flag redesign it should include a mix of all the iconic parts of the state. The Mississippi river, steambot, jazz, seafood, etc. And all of which should only have the three iconic Purple, Gold and Green colors to represent Mardi Gras. Making the new flag these boring flat ‘abstract’ blue flags would be a total failure in my opinion.
Tldr; Flag design should be colorful and wacky without being cluttered
honestly, a European style tri-stripe flag in the colors you mentioned with a fleur de lis in the middle could be nice. The fleur de lis is a uniquely louisianian symbol amongst american states and the purple would certainly help set it apart as well since that's a fairly rare color for a flag to have. That being said, what I described is pretty similar to the New Orleans flag and I certainly don't hate the flag you guys have now so personally I think a redesign is unnecessary
Louisiana's flag is honestly fine
Maybe a purple/gold/green tricolor with a slightly more simplified pelican would be great
As a fellow coonass I'd like to see a redesign but for the reasons you listed I'd rather not because it would quickly get out of hand. Unless we get a shotgun wielding crawfish of course.
@@josefstalin9678I would love to have some French design incorporated into a new Louisiana flag but sadly anything resembling European culture will be forfeited for not being “diverse” despite being a massive point of history for the state along with its namesake.
This whole criteria that flags be “diverse” is making things soulless.
@@spencegame of course
These flag changes feel like the local government version of corporations simplifying their logos.
No... that would be this:
saratogaflag.com/cdn-cgi/image/quality%3D85/assets/images/Custom%20Banners%20%20Flags/ArlingtonCityFlag_2.jpg
Except a lot of the company logos were already good. As controversial as the state redesigns may be, they're undoubtebly better than what we had previously.
@@GermaphobeMusic…nuh uh
A great example of destinctive and still following most of these rules is the flag for Pittsburgh, PA. It's two black stripes with a yellow one in the middle. In the yellow stripe is a modified version of the city's seal. The seal isn't simple for a child to draw, but the background is simple and you know there's a seal in the middle. Easy enough to remember and recognize.
I think the old Cedar Rapids flag is cool for being designed by a high school student and looks fine to me
This whole thing with flags is basically the "Nooo don't turn me into an oversimplified minimalist logo!" meme where basically all character in a flag's design gets erased in favour of bland, overly minimalistic designs. This is why I think mississipi's flag redesign is basically perfect, its simple enough to be a good flag but still keeps enough complex details like the flower to make the flag unique and stand out
Same with Utah, the beehive and red stone mountains are the two things I most associate with Utah
I agree I really like Mississippis flag, again I think people need to realize that all the rules can be broken if it makes your flag BETTER. Mississippi is a perfect example, yeah the flower is more complicated than it should be but it makes it a unique and more interesting flag same goes for the lettering
Turn me into a patron bean logo!
Minnesota’s new flag is the best example of this sentiment, because the vast number of submissions were fun and unique. Many designed a flag with a loon (their state bird) and they were the most well beloved submissions. If one of those was chosen it could have reached the popularity and legacy of something like California, but they went with the safe and sterile option instead, what a shame.
I don’t understand some people’s (especially people online) complete aversion to flag elements that have smaller details that aren’t complete abstract geometric designs. Like CGP Grey thinking the Mississippi flower is a little too detailed.
The Minnesota flag having a loon with a comparable level of graphic detail to the California flag’s bear would be absolutely iconic.
@stevengoomba6490 Ironically our (California) flag has come under attack for the normal reason...it is 'racist' because its based on the design Anglo settlers used in their attempt to break away from Mexican control and establish the Bear Flag Republic.
One of the stated issues is that the loon didn't represent the geography of southern Minnesota, which is prairie as opposed to the very wet and lake ridden northern parts which abound with loons during the summer. Some members of the committee were angry that the flag did not represent them, particularly the loon flags. Which is a shame, because I quite liked the loon designs.
Even worse, they sterilized the already safe and sterile option to the point of making a boring ugly flag.
@@nightpups5835 yeah seriously, I’d be fine if they added the white and green stripes back
I knew I had a problem with CGPs reductive evaluation of the flags, but You put it into words. I think having too many "geometric landscapes" is worse than having too many "state seal on blue" flags. as well as showing that "good flag, bad flag" was likely the source of this.
it reminds me of the "oversimplified logo" meme
The state seals on blue is the current problem, such that a lot of those flags include the name of the state on the flag as a distinguishing feature.
If you have to put your name on a flag to be distinct, you might as well let that be the only feature of your flag such that you failed to make a distinct flag to begin with.
Having an aesthetically pleasing, simple flag doesn't automatically mean it is recognizable and universally beloved. I personally really like the Colorado flag, but that doesn't mean its immediately recognized as a symbol of Colorado and it doesn't mean people even outside of Colorado love it.
People INSIDE Colorado DO love it. Which is kind of the point. How many residents of "Seal on a Bedsheet" states actually fly their state flags, or have ever even seen them or even remember what they look like?
You know what? This all builds even more respect for the new Mississippi flag for doing something a bit out there and breaking a few rules and creating something equally (if not more) aesthetically pleasing.
that new flag is horrible though.
It’s perfectly middle of the road. Maybe even above average.
@@gjmguy7994 in my eyes it's completely bland and unrecognizable.
@@JohnathanWilliamson849 Your opinion, I think it looks great.
i would've dropped the "in god we trust" (I think it's unnecesary) and boom. perfect
(imo)
Great video with lots of great points! As a designer, I think there are a lot of advantages to modern minimalist approach, and I like a lot of the new designs. I think the problem I run into is, it feels like more distinct regions just call for more distinct flags. A very general, abstract design works when you're representing a whole country, but when you zoom into a specific city, the flag is representing a much more specific set of things. Also, a region's values were probably established a really long time ago, so it feels like there's a bit of dissonance to supplant that with something so hip and modern.
My issue with the modern flags is that they seem too much like someone's graphic design class project. No understanding of color theory or proper aesthetics, and all symbolism is extremely on the nose.
As an Australian I have to say that the southern cross constellation is very much seen as an Australian symbol by Australians themselves. It's usage also predates the current flag, being used by Eurka flag as well.
I second this, it's very popular as a car sticker or even tattoo. If Australia ever leaves the commonwealth I would say that a centered southern cross would be a fine flag
I'm very keen for an Aus flag reform, living in Canberra myself, but I feel my main gripe is the colours and union flag seem to contradict our open and diverse history and culture, and that removing a sense of belonging to an often hated and oppressive coloniser is the main target. The Southern Cross may not be the most iconic thing in Australia, but I'd still be glad to keep it as I feel it still aligns with our common identity as a nation more so than other elements
I just scanned through. He didn't mention the NZ flag referendum?
Look up "John Oliver: NZ Flag Debate"
Australia won't leave the Commonwealth of Nations, it will just eventually replace the monarchy with a ceremonial president. The majority of the countries in the Commonwealth are republics.
@@shaz5711 I doubt it
Good example of that saying "You must first master the rules to know how to break them"
excellent take, i have to say
Take the californian flag, it breaks all of the rules, but it is quite memorable and iconic.
I also like the magnolia in the Mississippi flag, though they could remove the stars and text.
The main thing you need from a flag is that it is recognisable, that when people see it, they think of the place.
The Minnisota flag isn't ugly, it just doesn't say Minnesota to me.
Like using a star as your main icon, even if eight pointed, is not very unique in the US.
The new Minnesota flag breaks another flag rule by having blue on blue. Many of the proposed or adopted new flags break the heraldic rule of metals, where colors need separation from “metals” of white, yellow, grey, or black.
Separated by what?
@@PiousMoltar white, yellow, black, or gold depending on the color. For Minnesota’s new flag a white bar and waiting the star to gold would improve the look several times. Using different tints of the same color is still a design crime however.
I hate how people refer to these types of things as “flag rules” as if it’s objective in any way, when in reality it’s more or less subjective principles
Yea,you dont need to follow these rules,but If you wanna have a good flag,Its better you follow them.
@@fernandostrodrigues1 Id say it's better that you break them deliberately. The best flags, imo, are ones that have one distinct break. Look at Nunavut or Wales, each has a single somewhat complex symbol as a focal point, backed up with colors and simple shapes. Both are excellent flags.
I saw it as a art guildline more than a rule. You can and there are plenty of good design that broke one or more of those rule.
But those rule also a good guildline for not good overboard.
I think this quote sums it up best: "Bad flags break them, good flags follow them, and great ones FLAUNT them"
I think it was a process of sorting good flags from bad and trying to find common ground between the good ones. But not science of course because the very basis of it, good v bad, is subjective
Yes, some of these new flags are oversimplified. But many of the old ones are hideous. They need to change, but change into something better, not worse.
And the issue? Maybe if it was a flag of a nation that would matter but these are simply state flags, sometimes even city flags where they really serve no purpose but to simply exist. There is no reason to throw away a culturally rich often historic flag filled to the brim with meaning just so that it can be replaced with a simplistic visually pleasing, yet still bland flag that nobody is really that likely to see.
For example when I used to live in Tampa, there was a flag for the city which many would consider hideous, but the truth is the flag isn’t used anywhere. The flag being visually un pleasing means nothing because in this case that isn’t a factor to consider. Rather instead the flag works (and quite well at that) as a way of presenting and identity for the city
I guess it’s kinda funny in a way. We went from one “Corporate Style” of city flags like Pocatello and Milwaukee to another where corporate minimalism style is all the rage.
@@iScorpio1031 haha that’s a fun observation
@@Bread774is it okay for the flag to look unappealing because it isn't used much, or is it not used much because it is unappealing?
@@michaelweiske702 it’s acceptable to look bad because it isn’t used, the majority of cities in America have much lower patriotism towards their cities and will rarely show any form of strong love towards their flags.
Cities such as Denver, which have flags that would typically be considered as appealing, still have quite limited use of their flags and are really only used for traditions and sports, both things where the purpose of the flag is simply to be an identity of the city, and simply don’t need to be attractive.
While there are exceptions to this limited use of showcasing city flags for patriotism, such as in DC, it is usually due to an exterior influence to bring this love for the flag, in this case DC does not have a state and has always had heavy patriotism within the city, due to obvious reasons such as literally being the capital city.
Furthermore cities such as Bristol, while not American, show heavy patriotism towards the city themself, and often showcases its own flag. However the Bristol flag is what would arbitrarily be considered bad.
So overall, yes, city flags don’t need to be overly fixated on visuals due to the lack of patriotism and use of said flags.
Minnesota's old flag is an example of the common "regimental" type, typically displaying the state seal on a blue field. A long-time Minnesotan, I eventually came to dislike it, though that seal's wide border with stars distinguishes it from others of the type. Personally I *like* the new flag with its eight-pointed star & two shades of blue. Someone else has pointed out that the hoist design in fact resembles the state's outline.
"Timid conformity with somebody else's rules in desperate plea to be liked" So the new flag does represent the spirit of Minnesota.
To an extent, I can see the benefit of flag reform, particularly in the U.S. I live in Arizona, one of the few states that's had a well designed flag from the get-go, and there's lots of AZ flag merch: it's on hats, jackets, posters, stickers, etc. There's a significant market for "flag merch" among states and cities with well-designed flags, not so much for states like Minnesota or South Dakota. Nevertheless, flag reform genuinely does seem like a way for incompetent or timid legislators to make it seem like they're doing big things without doing any real work or taking any real cultural risks.
I'm that rare individual that does not share the nearly universal love for Arizona's flag.
I mean I live in West Virginia and even though we have a seal flag albeit on a white background you still see all kinds of merch with the flag on it.
@zachsmith8916 that's interesting. I wonder how many other states with the seal on blue that is true for? Ive never been to west virginia, but ive definitely noticed the trend
@@zachsmith8916
You have the Coat of Arms on your flag, which isn't has legally restricted as normal seal flags. But there are probably less derivatives of West Virigina's flag than Arizona's.
In Minnesota, state merch is common but what’s not as common is the flag on it.
I think the main thing is whether the people like their flag. Most people don't care about or fly their seal based flags. If they do like their seal flags then it is good
I'm a minimalist and I typically like oversimplification of logos, but even I think this flag reform has gone a bit insane. Yes, the tricolor is a well made design that perfectly encapsulates "flag" but utterly loses all meaning. I find it insane that companies simplify their logo a little and still keep their spirit sparks outrage, yet an entire flag simplifying to practically nothing except some shapes is good?
For Minnesota it’s perfect as it represents our passive aggressiveness perfectly.
I think the main problem with these redesigns is that most of these new flags look like they could be the flag of about 300 cities across the country. Most of them do not use recognizable symbols, they use generic ones. Some great flags like Canada or Israel conform to the 5 Principles, but they're not generic at all. They're unique even if they're simple. A state like Minnesota had the opportunity to use, for instance, a loon (not the laser-eye loon, even if that would be amazing) to have a very recognizable symbol that represents the state. THAT is the thing missing from these redesigns.
JJ brought up the point that a lot of these cities rely on rivers, mountains, and other generic geographical features as key symbolic components, which makes them unfortunately interchangeable with each other.
To be fair though, most of these cities quite honestly don’t have much else to rely on for symbolism, so they have little choice beyond geographic features. That probably says a lot about how interchangeable in general these cities are.
"Minnesota had the opportunity to use [...] a very recognizable symbol that represents the state" They did! The new flag incorporates the literal outline/border/shape of the state, with the star of the flag positioned at its capital city, where a large star with that exact shape is inlaid onto the floor of the rotunda of the state capital building. Also, the edge between the two colors of blue can represent a lake shore, which is fitting because Minnesota is "the land of 10,000 lakes."
It's subtle, packed with meaning, and a 3-year old could draw it from memory. Genius design. Just because it doesn't have a obvious (boring, basic) metaphor like a drawing of the state bird on it doesn't mean it doesn't have symbols.
@@Mark_LaCroix I could spend an hour creating metaphors over a flat color flag. That doesn't really make it that interesting. The design is still as generic as it gets these days and looks almost identical to countless others.
@@roddbroward9876 I think that attitude shows an extreme lack of imagination.
Exactly. It's really unnecessary for a city to have a flag that adheres to such minimalist design standards. State? Maybe. Country? Absolutely. But cities should NOT be doing this.
When I first saw the Japanese prefecture flags I realized that they're exactly what these modern flag reformists are looking for: simple, minimalist, but actually distinct. I think the reason they work is that they break the traditions of what flags look like by using unconventional colors and symbols that are completely unique. Some of these redesigns are taking "simple enough for a child to draw" to mean "only using shapes that children are taught how to draw in school".
On the other hand, though, the way all of those flags perfectly conform to each other and look like a set works just fine for Japan, but would feel strange in a country like the US that emphasizes state independence, so isn't it weird that we're aspiring to all follow the same flag design principles at all?
"Some of these redesigns are taking "simple enough for a child to draw" to mean "only using shapes that children are taught how to draw in school"."
That guideline imo is the most misunderstood. The point isn't that a child should be able to _perfectly replicate_ the design, but that a child's recreation should be recognizable as that flag specifically. The bear on the California state flag is not "easy" for a child to draw in a recreation sense, but a child's drawing of the California flag will be recognizable as a California state flag, even if the bear looks like a child's drawing of a bear. That can't really be said for any of the "seal-on-blue" flags.
"isn't it weird that we're aspiring to all follow the same flag design principles at all?"
Not really, they're just guidelines based on existing good flags and generally what attributes they share. You can break the rules, but you should know why you're breaking the rule.
That's because the symbols on Japanese prefecture flags actually have CLEAR, SPECIFIC MEANINGS. The majority of them have stylised "mon" (which is the Japanese equivalent of a coat of arms", or stylised kanji which are actual words in pictographic form. In other words, many of their flags DO have ACTUAL WORDS on them; our Western eyes just don't recognize them as such. And because of that, their individuality and meaning are not robbed and erased from their flags as Ted Kaye's woke-ist definition of "good flag" would have us do to our state flags, with meaningless, infinitely ambiguous, abstract geometric symbolism--which is the pinnacle of Marxist conformity. Under Ted Kaye's rules, this eradicates any regional symbolism from a flag in the name of leftist lockstep.
@@KaiserFrazer67 I do get the first half of the comment but I lost you the moment I read the word "woke-ist".
why can't abstract symbolism convey cultural values and meanings, and what the fuck has abstract symbolism got to do with Marxism and conformity?
seriously, do you think we are out here to erase every single piece of cultural identity and symbolism?
It's interesting to see, that when brands started changing their logos to be extremely minimalist, it had a huge public backlash (though nothing happened) but when states do the same, people are willing and happy.
My biggest complaint about state flags is words. If you can't convey in imagery what you represent without words, your flag has failed.
We will remember this time in history as “The Great JJ-CGP Grey War”.
JJ's flag takes are not always correct but they are also never copy-pasted from NAVA or any other "authority." Art is subjective, looking good is subjective, different people and communities will find different symbols striking and affecting. Hence why it's so refreshing JJ has developed his own taste in flag design.
Adding a comment for the obligatory algorithm boost. I always appreciate your videos, but there are few I vehemently agree with more than this topic. Thank you for being one of the few able to understand and bring attention to the whole flag debacle.
Personal story:
In 1994 the US hosted the FIFA World Cup. I was ten years old at the time, and my brother and I got a bunch of index cards, we drew a bunch of countries' flags on the back of them, and hung them in our window. One of the most difficult ones to draw was that of Brazil. To this day, the flag of Brazil remains the dearest in my memory.
You talked a lot about the fetishisation of European flags, but I'd argue that the beautiful and coherent Japanese prefectures flags are also a big example of what's considered good flag design by today's design sensibility and is therefore used as inspiration. They are beautiful, but as you say, other flags in other countries and contexts don't necessarily need to adhere to these rules. But also, wanting a new and more merchandise-friendly flag is also a good enough reason to get it changed, tbh. As long as the redesign is not boring and it actually makes a good job representing its citizens then it should be welcomed.
Japanese prefectures flags are mediocre and boring.
No one in Japan knows what their prefectural flag or symbol looks like. If you doubt me, check Google Image Search for a prefecture, such as 鹿児島県
It's funny how people are so up in arms about soulless, minimalist corporate logos, but they embrace the exact same design style when it comes to flags.
I do in fact believe that minimalism in logo design is good when done properly and I'm also in favour of flag reform so I'm not sure about others but I'm no hypocrite in this
They usually insist that there is a difference between a corporate logo flag and a flag flag. I can't tell the difference usually.I really like the potential Minnesota flag with the mississippi river and clouds on it. but flag experts think it looks like a corporate logo? I don't get it.
You are just tasteless then. It isn’t very good
@@therealnuggetballI'm no hypocrite in the other direction. Corporate logos with "personality" are memorable, as are flags.
If someone came up if the modern Canadian flag you guys would call "corporate".
The thing is, we HAD a design that almost all Minnesotans liked, the "L'etoile du Nord" flag (submission F29) alongside a lot of very interesting designs, and the commission axed them all in favor of a flag THEY MODIFIED SO MUCH THAT IT WASN'T EVEN RECOGNIZABLE AS THE ONE THAT WAS ACTUALLY SUBMITTED. If they wanted to make their own flag why did they even bother asking the public?!?
Minnesota used to be okay with unique, corny, ugly, weird or creepy characters and symbols--Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox, the scowling Red Owl, Fairchild the State Fair Gopher, to name but a few. But the Twin Cities have a long history of being belittled by other big cities around the country for being too backwoods/folksy to be taken seriously. Maybe this has something to do us with wanting to adopt a more contemporary blend-in-don't-stand-out flag and image as a state.
As someone that grew up in Mexico te idea that a child could draw it from memory seemed really arbitrary to me since in kindergarten up to grade school they would have us draw the flag, sometimes freehand sometimes from a template, and the fact that it wasn’t a perfect recreation of it never seemed to discourage anyone. I also feel that this trend is part of a greater aesthetic trend in public spaces that states since beauty is subjective might as well make symbols as minimalistic as possible to offend the least amount of people, but they tend to become bland and uninteresting. It’s like the flag equivalent of brutalist architecture, all function little form
It's a very American idea
Minnesota's new state flag begs the question: did Minnesota adopt a new flag or did it secede and become a newly independent Pacific island country?
Yea,If they didnt edit the winning desing which would be PERFECT for minesota,pepole would have not be angry,why didnt they keep the winning design anyway?Im really pissed off.
Flag reform is needed in some places, but there's a fine line to be drawn between "the details are too much, it's overwhelming the senses" and "the details are too little, in order to not be offensive to anyone"
The same can be said with interior design, logo design and mascot design.
I think you really nailed this. What’s crazy is the pamphlet itself I am pretty sure presented these principles as things they have identified that most well known flags have in common, and that they make good guidelines for designing an impactful flag, not that they are like requirements or something. The pamphlet even ends by identifying several examples of “good” flags that break the principles, and says that all rules have exceptions, just be cautious and considerate when you find yourself departing from the guidelines.
My biggest issue has been these terrible colors for the new designs and less the shapes.
But ultimately few of the new designs feel like real, tangible flags. Like nobody got cloth and a sewing machine and created a banner. They all feel designed on the computer and will be printed on a sheet of plastic.
I don't like stylized landscapes on the flags either. It's one step down from putting a map on the flag which itself is only a step down from printing the state's name on it.
Came over here from that other streaming service you're on to say: you do make some valid points re: creeping mediocrity. However, as a Minnesotan, I do feel that our flag badly needed an update, and I welcome this new one. However...I want to like it more than I do. The original version of this flag had a bold tricolor that really made it stand out. The solid pale blue field they went with is cold (ok, yeah, haha, it's cold up here, except when it isn't) and makes the whole flag a boring monochrome. So, yeah, there's something to be said about forced sameness based on one guy's arbitrary ideas, but most of the new flags, including Minnesota's, are way better than what came before.
This new flag and seal id totally fly or wear
There's a reason why Pocatello is such a meme, even outside of vexillology circles. This kind of flag is so ridiculous it should have never been replaced.
I find it humorous how North Dakota gets thrown into the "seal on a flag" yet it is nowhere near the seal. Kinda casts doubt on what they are claiming.
I've lived in Minnesota for over 30 years. No one flies the old flag. People dont really miss it. Its fair to not like the new flag, but its funny when Minnesotans say they liked the old flag when I've never seen anyone flying it outside of their front door like they do with the US flag.
When you make something that looks like shite, you are surprised that the thing it replaced looks BETTER?
Pride Does Not Equate To Flying It Personally. Pride Is Not A Specifically Designated Thing. They Could've Just Liked The Fact That They Saw It When The State Was Talked About. They Coulda Liked It When They Saw It On A Building. Just Because It Wasn't Hung From Their Building Doesn't Mean They Don't Have Pride For It.
@@D0Y0u3v3r "I'm very proud of my wife. I just don't want anyone to see her."
@@D0Y0u3v3r What buildings other than government buildings?
@@seancosgrove1 "I Love My Wife. I'm Going To Shove Her Appearance In Front Of Everybody's Face"
The thing that's bizarre to me is how this recent news with Minnesota is making people turn to the new Utah flag and also calling it bad.
I voted for that flag design, and I'm so confused why people hate it so much. I think it's a well designed flag, looks unique, and properly represents our state.
I really hope that backlash against flag redesigns doesn't lead to actually good flags getting turned back to old versions indiscriminately.
I think JJ is just being anti-change imo
I was recently at the Festival of Trees in SLC and outside there was a booth with a guy using a megaphone to gather signatures to go back to the old flag. It seemed like he was having some success out there.
@@jacobandrews2663 I don't thinks that's quite true. I think that he makes some good points, but it did discomfort me that he characterized our new flag as being bland and corporate or something - when I felt absolutely nothing about our old flag.
I think really all it is, is that we need time for the foolish anger to die down, and thirty years from now, people will be much more attached to it.
I think state governments would deal with complaints about new flags before reverting back to the old ones. It could possibly prevent other states from changing their flags, but I think this is a case of no publicity is bad publicity and I foresee more states changing flags. It's good, low-stake, free-ish marketing and sells t-shirts lol
I really liked the new Utah flag, and I thought most people like it too.
I preferred the version with a circle instead of an hexagon and the diagonal tricolor scheme, but I guess the mountains were an ok thing to add
I find it a bit comedic yet tragic that almost every single state flag redesign uses the same color scheme involving at least one shade of blue. I'm not saying if one of these flags changed from a primarily blue color scheme to another one that it'd all suddenly be fixed, but my god, they really just cannot help themselves with the amount of blue can they? It's not becoming more unique/distinct, it's just moving from one mode of generic design to another overall.
the original submission that minnesota ended up adopting looks far superior to what the government diluted it into imo
I think the problem is taking the so called "rules" precisely as that, as rules, instead of basic guidelines from which you can build upon. In my opinion, mountains and stars made from geometric forms is just as lazy as state seal on navy blue. The problem isn't the guidelines for good flag design, the problem is taking them too dogmatically and as an excuse for lazy and non-distinctive designs
Mississippi and Utah's new flags turned out so well because they spent over two years figuring out what to change them into. Minnesota also had a golden goose in their palms in the form of F1953, but because of some pressure from random idiots saying it looked too similar to Jubaland, a state of Somalia, they stripped it of almost everything interesting and fucked it up at the last second
new utah looks bad too, but yeah new MN flag is kinda uninspired
meh, utah's coula been better. like mississippi tho.
At least Utah managed to get the beehive and a hexagon in making it way more distinct as I don’t know many places with a beehive on their flag, and yeah conservatives had to ruin the flag and be racist about it
As a Minnesotan I like the new flag, but I would have 100% rather had the Loon Laser flag.
Also in my opinion the new flag is way better than the 'Polaris Tricolor' that they had first confirmed as the finalist.
This is so sad… my main issue was when it was just a blue base with a seal on it.
I feel like for a city flag you can throw some of the detail oriented stuff out the window. Sure have a seal or even some rediculous text, so long as you use distinct pattern and colors.
The new flags are way too formulaic, impossible to tell which is which.
A lot of the new state flags *are* boring, but Utah’s new flag is absolutely fantastic. Love it, 10/10
The Utah flag is objectively bad redesign. They took out all the intricate details and meaning from the state seal and replaced it with bland Adobe illustrator vectors.
Anything is better than that stupid blue background with the state seal on it even if their boring at least they stand out
@NA.NA..
There’s no such thing as objectivity in art. To somehow come to the conclusion that you’re the authority on what is or is not a good design is insane. If you love the seal so much, don’t worry buddy, we still have the seal. The official seal of Utah still looks the exact same after the redesign. You can still look at it. In my opinion, the old Utah flag wasn’t a good flag because seals and flags serve different purposes. Obviously state flags are basically just for fun, but the purpose of a flag is to look distinct from a distance, which the old flag did not. That’s why I like the new one better.
Mississippi's New flag looks really good too in my opinion.
@@NA.NA..i cant disagree more. Utah's new flag is amazing. But flag design is a subjective topic.
I agree, I always thought the “5 rules” of flag design was always silly cause there are so many good iconic flags that break the rules of the “good flag design” (I.e. South Africa, India, etc.) and for those flags they say “oh those are just the exceptions” which shows that “good flag design” is a lot more subjective than most people believe it to be and that it shouldn’t be bound to “5 principles” as if designing a national flag is the same as designing a simple flyer design in Photoshop.
The flag of South Africa just has six colours that it uses well.
The flag of India has four colours, three stripes and and a single primary monochrome point symmetric symbol.
They for example don't use the complex coat of arms of South Africa or the complex state emblem of India.
Quote: "Design principles are guidelines, not rules-they help designers create flags that will be effective, widely adopted, and loved. In some cases it makes sense to depart from the guidelines to reach a creative, compelling, or politically acceptable solution."
Quote: "All rules have exceptions. Colorado’s “C” is a stunning graphic element. Maryland’s complicated heraldic quarters produce a memorable and distinctive flag. Military unit flags often need letters or numbers. California’s design recalls a historic relic from 1846. All six colors on South Africa’s 1994 design have deep symbolic meaning. But depart from these five principles only with caution and purpose."
@@Luchsens Yeah but if these design "guidelines" can be modified so much, then whats the point of having them at all? Just seems to me like it was the view of the author on what he thinks makes a good flag because there are way too many execptions to these "guidelines" for them to be considered rules to be followed. Like the guideline about having "2-3 colors" seems completly arbitary (probably because it is). Again, flags aren't like Photoshop files, they don't require guidelines to look good.
Yep. The idea that for flag design to be considered good, a child should be able to draw it from memory is just *dumb.*
IMO a good flag should be distinctive and recognizable, but it doesn't mean we must simplify it and replace "complex images" with basic shapes for the children.
South Africa has the most badass flag in the world.
@@Luchsens CGP Grey and others criticize the California and Colorado flag for breaking the 5 rules, even though Ted Kaye approves of them. The flag reformers largely apply the 5 rules in a dogmatic, unthinking manner.
Someone else said this, but the biggest issue with the rules is the one that is "A child could draw it" which should be be "a child can recognize it". I, an adult, would struggle to draw the flag of Maryland from memory, but I think it's very easily recognizable nonetheless
They took an interesting design with the three colours that actually meant something and then just... Sucked the life out of it.
Not really though. The three colors represented "we have grass, snow, and water", which isn't particularly interesting, and is something even this video was criticizing at the start as being a lazy trend for a lot of the new flags to default to in their designs.