What a truly inspired video! Thanks for that! It clarifies what I've thought in little pieces dancing around in my head but have been unable to unify into a single thought. This video does that. Good work.
I learned the words "bus" & "cow" from my parents and the particular language that it's expressed in. They also aided and possibly sped up my ability to walk. But the ability to distinguish between the things we call "bus" & "cow" & the ability to eventually walk is inherent. And laughable to suggest otherwise.
reality is experienced subjectively yes, but reality itself is actually the same reality for both of us. The fact that you are replying to my post proves this.
Peace to you too. I'm very much willing to change my views when the evidence presents itself. If there is a god I would surely like to know, but the attainment of that knowledge is particular not subjective. I'm glad you recognise that this life, and by extension any form of consciousness, is finite. And to that end I wish you the very best with it. :D
But I am not because of cultural/aestheic reasons. Its because I see the effect in my life, and acknowledge the incredible benefits now, and what will to come. Anyhoo, you are just as bound in your own way. So, lets say "peace" and have a nice life, for as much as you have left.
Lol. Your percetion of what reality is subjective and that is enough to prove my point. I did not say there were no conjoining aspects of reality that were not similar to each of us, and has no bearing on my response.
In response: 1/ Wrong - reality is totally subjective. Some people have areas of teh brain that are measurably active, whereas in others it is not. This is a strong indication against your assertation.
Yes it must have, it's just that humans don't know and probably never will. Rational humans accept this and push forward toward an answer, and non-rational humans replace this void with god.
I use science for knowledge not truth. Yes, we all know about subjective experience. This is ultimately all we actually do know. And that is where Christians experience God. Something anti-theists always get wrong is most genuinely religious people dont ever argue about religion because faith is give. Not coerced or persuaded into people. If you dont believe and you are adamant about it. Then God does not exist for you, and everything you say is true. But that is your subjective experience.
@xXkirasdisicpleXx Also, after I replied I noticed your comment was from a year ago. Sorry for replying to something that happened so long ago. Honest mistake.
In other words; 1/ Reality is the same for both of us. (regarding things that do or do not exist). 2/ in order to understand reality we should use an epistemic method of inquiry that is objective, rational and open to falsification. again e.g. science. Even if I take your comments at face value, your conclusion "There is a God" is a non-sequitur.
Yes I am. But I dont talk theology with everyone i meet. Only people who are seriously misguided on what christianity is about, and only if they start the conversation. I dont go brow beating people with my knowledge.
Yes you have many people that warp the truth of the chruch. Bible scripture by itself is not sufficient for understanding. They call it the Good News for a reason, it must be given by another. Discussed and extoled, not just from written word or pamphlets. Learn from someone who knows, like a priest. If you really want to understnad the incredible truth of salvation you will do it, and you will recieve ten times what you put in.
If you assert the existence of a god, Yes you need to to defend that claim. You don't have to of course but if you seek dialogue, political power or evangelise in any other way, then you should expect criticism. Individual experience is subjective. Humans fool themselves all the time, (this is true for all of us), especially on matters of metaphysics. The way to determine "truth" would be to employ a process with a good track record on determining objective reality. e.g. science.
I was no responding to you buddy. I was responding to a guy who said nothing exist unless scientifically proven otherwise. Then I simply demonstrated that his scientism was inadequate to describe things we know to exist or have existed in objective reality. If you disagree that science can't prove the laws of logic, then you are not worth my time.
I didnt talk about you inherent abilities. You learned the conceptualised properties of what a bus and a cow was from those with authority, who knew already. I am talking about knowledge not pattern recognition Sheish.
Depends on what field you are studying. Quantumm mechanics does not, physics does. Philosophy does not, psychology does (athough I am hard pressed to call psychology a science hehe).
Saying that religion goes not deserve respect is bigoted. It is a flawed rational based on a highly polemic view, because he personally dispises religion for the limited effect he has seen. This hard question thing... Religion is a personal matter, it is not up for general consensus, and does not need to be ratified by the secular world. Morality does however. How I treat you is important, however the existance of what believe does not have to be justified to you.
When you say "conjoining" and "similar". You seem to think that reality is tentative and may be subjectively corroborated by perhaps simple coincidence? Doesn't the whole scientific enterprise rest on the fact that there is only one reality?!
You missed the point. Andytoz said that God is an all knowing being, which means he knows the future and EVERYTHING that will happen. Let me put it another way. If everything i said above is true, then when god creates a soul to enter a human body, god knows what that soul will do for the rest of its life. He knows whether that soul will willingly believe in him or not. Therefore, god made that soul on PURPOSE so that it can go to hell. They had no free will from the beginning.
I suggest you dont scrutinize the bible using science. Proper theology scholars have been scrutinizing the bible for millenia. St. Luke (writer of Luke's Gospel) for example has been hailed as being a first class historian by secular historians. Translation errors have been delt with (mostly) and the message remains intact. Clarity has been added, and all is well thanks.
Nothing can prove that, it is outside of the scope of science, hence the term "supernatural". People hypthesise about supernatural phenomenon all the time, such as what occured one nano-second before the big bang. p.s. manipulating my comments is just pathetic. I have wasted enough time on this threat. Chiao.
"Rubbish. God exists outside of time." This should be restated as such: "God exists outside of time. Rubbish." Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -Carl Sagan Prove that anything can exist outside of time/space. You made the claim, provide your evidence to back that up. If something exists outside of space/time how can it effect/create things which are within space/time? "That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
No its not. Look up what bigotry means. If you murder someone thats evil. If people reason that an unborn child, left to its own devices will become a born child and there is not distinction for them between the two, this is not just a religious matter, its immoral and thus we have a right to fight against immorality. Would you deny me that right?
No. Thats not what I am saying, you are having a hard time getting my point becuase my point is accurate. We are taught that faith is a gift from God. Only those who open their hearts to the good news are "gifted" with faith. Only those so gifted can percieve God.
Maybe because some questions are offensive? If all atheists were decent and reational people there would be no harm, however saying to someone "your deluded, get over it". Is ignorant and abusive. Saying to a third person "all theists are demented and have sub-standard intellects" likewise is bigoted. The scrutiny and debate you refer to is scientific analysis, not theology. You wanna talk theology thats fine. but thats not what most atheists wanna do.
No it does not hurt to believe in god, you can believe in god if you like i don't care. I am saying that believing in something with no facts is not rational. "Answers that people will ignore...," do you really believe that people will ignore when or if humans find the answer to the beginning of the universe?
You use very non-specific ideas. Do you agree with the following statement? "there is a distinction and potential disconnect between that which we perceive and that which actually exists" Hopefully your answer will clear up any confusion.
I don't understand why you say belief in God is irrational when people can give reasons for why they believe that. Their reasoning may be wrong, but that hardly makes such belief irrational.
They shut up because the bible is not bound by laws of physical evidence, it is called the good news, because understanding is delivered from one person to another. You are insisting on using one subject to discredit another. No teaching of christ desires the death of anyone. If you are trying to tell me that people are messed up, I agree. That applies to everyone, christian or not, its what we call "being sinners". Even when we try, we still mess up. Your point is?
honey2heaven - I don't doubt that you have had some kind of subjective experience, but to say that is was God is running before you can walk. You need to know what a god is before you attribute your experience to it. What is a god? which god? how do I know it was a god? Is there a god? Have I exhausted all other explanations? Do I just want to believe it was a god?
No I understand him. He is just in no way correct. God exists outside time. For all eternity and beyond He experiences everythig as the present. God can spend an eternity with us for every second of our lives.
2/ Wrong. Did you parents never teach you anything? You learned from them how to talk and walk and destiguish a bus from a cow (moo moo). You did not apply scientific principle there. You trusted the authority which taught you the end product instead of forcing you to do the groundwork (no pun intended) yourself. 3/ An assertation you cannot prove.
No you are saying that the church teaches hatred of others. Your argument is really very flawed. You wanna critique Christianity, critique the teachings of Jesus if you can. Learn about the salvation history of Man and God in detail and then comment. I bet you cant cause you dont know what its about. If you lived local to me id volunteer to meet up with you and give you an education over a pint, but odds are your gonna have to get it from another source.
Overall I find you arguements suprious and facile. Abraham Lincon said "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." Spewing this tiny and warped perception of salvation history does not hold any water at all. Sorry you dont understnad squat mate.
All of this basically proves you understand nothing about the nature of God. Just to pick one point out of all you got wrong. It is not God fault there is sin in the world anymore than it is the candles fault that when extinguished it becomes engulfed in darkness. Sin comes from the hebrew word Khawtaw which means to "miss the mark".
Rubbish. God exists outside of time. An author writes a book with a happy ending. A time traveller, who hates books than end with a happy ending, travels forward in time to see what the ending of the book is before he buys it. This example (silly as it is) is more appropriate. God does not impinge on our free will, that is tied directly to our ability reason, which is our special nature.
I know what you are taught, and that's the problem. You have an over-reliance on authority and a stunted measure of honest enquiry. so faith = trust etc, you trust god therefore what god says is true.. LOL You are taught that faith is a gift from god, so the teachers can exploit your credulity.
You will find no distain for rational thinking from me. But I dont call your thinking rational, I call it bigoted and disrespectful. What gives you the right to levy a single comment on any level against all theists? Cant you see how arrogant and rude you are?
Way to go with the poetic licence. Unfortunately you continue to talk nonsense. I'm not interested in your ad homs. I get it, I really do.. I understand you are wedded to theistic ideas for cultural/aesthetic reasons. Unfortunately your bright enough to attempt to justify them in rational terms, but because of your point of departure, you fail dismally.
What a truly inspired video! Thanks for that! It clarifies what I've thought in little pieces dancing around in my head but have been unable to unify into a single thought. This video does that. Good work.
It's not "authority" that's important, it's whether their knowledge corresponds with reality, as identified by a recognised epistemic method.
in the context of my argument no. Within the realms of posibility, yes.
I learned the words "bus" & "cow" from my parents and the particular language that it's expressed in. They also aided and possibly sped up my ability to walk.
But the ability to distinguish between the things we call "bus" & "cow" & the ability to eventually walk is inherent. And laughable to suggest otherwise.
reality is experienced subjectively yes, but reality itself is actually the same reality for both of us.
The fact that you are replying to my post proves this.
Peace to you too.
I'm very much willing to change my views when the evidence presents itself.
If there is a god I would surely like to know, but the attainment of that knowledge is particular not subjective.
I'm glad you recognise that this life, and by extension any form of consciousness, is finite.
And to that end I wish you the very best with it. :D
Great video and great track.
But I am not because of cultural/aestheic reasons. Its because I see the effect in my life, and acknowledge the incredible benefits now, and what will to come. Anyhoo, you are just as bound in your own way. So, lets say "peace" and have a nice life, for as much as you have left.
No not really, but subjectivism, credulity and a distain for rational thinking are rife.
Thx for the comments.
Lol. Your percetion of what reality is subjective and that is enough to prove my point. I did not say there were no conjoining aspects of reality that were not similar to each of us, and has no bearing on my response.
The same request should be made of theists but is not granted.
In response:
1/ Wrong - reality is totally subjective. Some people have areas of teh brain that are measurably active, whereas in others it is not. This is a strong indication against your assertation.
I know enough about NLP, what's your point and how is it relevant?
I'll talk about all I want and so can you!
Do we know how to say "personal subjective experience?"
Yes it must have, it's just that humans don't know and probably never will. Rational humans accept this and push forward toward an answer, and non-rational humans replace this void with god.
I use science for knowledge not truth. Yes, we all know about subjective experience. This is ultimately all we actually do know. And that is where Christians experience God. Something anti-theists always get wrong is most genuinely religious people dont ever argue about religion because faith is give. Not coerced or persuaded into people. If you dont believe and you are adamant about it. Then God does not exist for you, and everything you say is true. But that is your subjective experience.
Its not pointless to say I disagree with something.
@xXkirasdisicpleXx Also, after I replied I noticed your comment was from a year ago. Sorry for replying to something that happened so long ago. Honest mistake.
In other words;
1/ Reality is the same for both of us. (regarding things that do or do not exist).
2/ in order to understand reality we should use an epistemic method of inquiry that is objective, rational and open to falsification. again e.g. science.
Even if I take your comments at face value, your conclusion "There is a God" is a non-sequitur.
Yes I am. But I dont talk theology with everyone i meet. Only people who are seriously misguided on what christianity is about, and only if they start the conversation. I dont go brow beating people with my knowledge.
Yes you have many people that warp the truth of the chruch. Bible scripture by itself is not sufficient for understanding. They call it the Good News for a reason, it must be given by another. Discussed and extoled, not just from written word or pamphlets.
Learn from someone who knows, like a priest. If you really want to understnad the incredible truth of salvation you will do it, and you will recieve ten times what you put in.
If you assert the existence of a god, Yes you need to to defend that claim. You don't have to of course but if you seek dialogue, political power or evangelise in any other way, then you should expect criticism.
Individual experience is subjective. Humans fool themselves all the time, (this is true for all of us), especially on matters of metaphysics.
The way to determine "truth" would be to employ a process with a good track record on determining objective reality. e.g. science.
I was no responding to you buddy. I was responding to a guy who said nothing exist unless scientifically proven otherwise.
Then I simply demonstrated that his scientism was inadequate to describe things we know to exist or have existed in objective reality.
If you disagree that science can't prove the laws of logic, then you are not worth my time.
I didnt talk about you inherent abilities. You learned the conceptualised properties of what a bus and a cow was from those with authority, who knew already. I am talking about knowledge not pattern recognition Sheish.
Depends on what field you are studying. Quantumm mechanics does not, physics does. Philosophy does not, psychology does (athough I am hard pressed to call psychology a science hehe).
I dont want you to conceed anything. If you are not willing to learn and open your mind, there is nothing i can say to alter it.
Peace.
Saying that religion goes not deserve respect is bigoted. It is a flawed rational based on a highly polemic view, because he personally dispises religion for the limited effect he has seen.
This hard question thing... Religion is a personal matter, it is not up for general consensus, and does not need to be ratified by the secular world.
Morality does however. How I treat you is important, however the existance of what believe does not have to be justified to you.
When you say "conjoining" and "similar". You seem to think that reality is tentative and may be subjectively corroborated by perhaps simple coincidence?
Doesn't the whole scientific enterprise rest on the fact that there is only one reality?!
You missed the point. Andytoz said that God is an all knowing being, which means he knows the future and EVERYTHING that will happen.
Let me put it another way. If everything i said above is true, then when god creates a soul to enter a human body, god knows what that soul will do for the rest of its life. He knows whether that soul will willingly believe in him or not. Therefore, god made that soul on PURPOSE so that it can go to hell. They had no free will from the beginning.
I suggest you dont scrutinize the bible using science. Proper theology scholars have been scrutinizing the bible for millenia. St. Luke (writer of Luke's Gospel) for example has been hailed as being a first class historian by secular historians.
Translation errors have been delt with (mostly) and the message remains intact. Clarity has been added, and all is well thanks.
Nothing can prove that, it is outside of the scope of science, hence the term "supernatural". People hypthesise about supernatural phenomenon all the time, such as what occured one nano-second before the big bang.
p.s. manipulating my comments is just pathetic. I have wasted enough time on this threat. Chiao.
"Rubbish. God exists outside of time."
This should be restated as such:
"God exists outside of time. Rubbish."
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -Carl Sagan
Prove that anything can exist outside of time/space. You made the claim, provide your evidence to back that up.
If something exists outside of space/time how can it effect/create things which are within space/time?
"That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
I can tell you must be bothered by theists trying to convert you often. Interesting point about the built in defenses of faith.
No its not. Look up what bigotry means. If you murder someone thats evil. If people reason that an unborn child, left to its own devices will become a born child and there is not distinction for them between the two, this is not just a religious matter, its immoral and thus we have a right to fight against immorality. Would you deny me that right?
@saynotodarwin protip: that guy wasn't actually an atheist. Sorry!
No. Thats not what I am saying, you are having a hard time getting my point becuase my point is accurate. We are taught that faith is a gift from God. Only those who open their hearts to the good news are "gifted" with faith. Only those so gifted can percieve God.
Maybe because some questions are offensive? If all atheists were decent and reational people there would be no harm, however saying to someone "your deluded, get over it". Is ignorant and abusive. Saying to a third person "all theists are demented and have sub-standard intellects" likewise is bigoted.
The scrutiny and debate you refer to is scientific analysis, not theology. You wanna talk theology thats fine. but thats not what most atheists wanna do.
No it does not hurt to believe in god, you can believe in god if you like i don't care. I am saying that believing in something with no facts is not rational.
"Answers that people will ignore...," do you really believe that people will ignore when or if humans find the answer to the beginning of the universe?
You use very non-specific ideas. Do you agree with the following statement?
"there is a distinction and potential disconnect between that which we perceive and that which actually exists"
Hopefully your answer will clear up any confusion.
One more comment in a long line of seemingly pointless comments.
I don't understand why you say belief in God is irrational when people can give reasons for why they believe that. Their reasoning may be wrong, but that hardly makes such belief irrational.
"...No matter how kind and reasonable they may seem to be"
HAHAHAHA. Not on youtube...
They shut up because the bible is not bound by laws of physical evidence, it is called the good news, because understanding is delivered from one person to another. You are insisting on using one subject to discredit another.
No teaching of christ desires the death of anyone. If you are trying to tell me that people are messed up, I agree. That applies to everyone, christian or not, its what we call "being sinners". Even when we try, we still mess up. Your point is?
all too true.
honey2heaven - I don't doubt that you have had some kind of subjective experience, but to say that is was God is running before you can walk. You need to know what a god is before you attribute your experience to it.
What is a god? which god? how do I know it was a god? Is there a god? Have I exhausted all other explanations? Do I just want to believe it was a god?
i don't think you understood what deicidaljimbo meant...GOD is the one who creates and GOD is the one who damns souls
No I understand him. He is just in no way correct. God exists outside time. For all eternity and beyond He experiences everythig as the present. God can spend an eternity with us for every second of our lives.
So god, in the particular way you would characterise it, is only true for you. It's not objectively true.
Thanks for clarifying my position.
2/ Wrong. Did you parents never teach you anything? You learned from them how to talk and walk and destiguish a bus from a cow (moo moo). You did not apply scientific principle there. You trusted the authority which taught you the end product instead of forcing you to do the groundwork (no pun intended) yourself.
3/ An assertation you cannot prove.
No you are saying that the church teaches hatred of others. Your argument is really very flawed. You wanna critique Christianity, critique the teachings of Jesus if you can. Learn about the salvation history of Man and God in detail and then comment. I bet you cant cause you dont know what its about. If you lived local to me id volunteer to meet up with you and give you an education over a pint, but odds are your gonna have to get it from another source.
Overall I find you arguements suprious and facile. Abraham Lincon said "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."
Spewing this tiny and warped perception of salvation history does not hold any water at all. Sorry you dont understnad squat mate.
All of this basically proves you understand nothing about the nature of God.
Just to pick one point out of all you got wrong. It is not God fault there is sin in the world anymore than it is the candles fault that when extinguished it becomes engulfed in darkness. Sin comes from the hebrew word Khawtaw which means to "miss the mark".
@wood9670 i refuse. How about you prove your irrationality for once? Give me the proof.
Rubbish. God exists outside of time.
An author writes a book with a happy ending. A time traveller, who hates books than end with a happy ending, travels forward in time to see what the ending of the book is before he buys it. This example (silly as it is) is more appropriate. God does not impinge on our free will, that is tied directly to our ability reason, which is our special nature.
I know what you are taught, and that's the problem.
You have an over-reliance on authority and a stunted measure of honest enquiry.
so faith = trust etc, you trust god therefore what god says is true.. LOL
You are taught that faith is a gift from god, so the teachers can exploit your credulity.
You will find no distain for rational thinking from me. But I dont call your thinking rational, I call it bigoted and disrespectful. What gives you the right to levy a single comment on any level against all theists? Cant you see how arrogant and rude you are?
Way to go with the poetic licence. Unfortunately you continue to talk nonsense.
I'm not interested in your ad homs. I get it, I really do.. I understand you are wedded to theistic ideas for cultural/aesthetic reasons.
Unfortunately your bright enough to attempt to justify them in rational terms, but because of your point of departure, you fail dismally.
rubbish.