The 2nd kid debating that the bible is a mythological narrative is a prime example of people who are scared to test their truth. He formulated a conclusion in his head to disregard the bible as myth and when it got hot in the kitchen, he had to leave. 😆 I never get over people who say "Exactly" after making no point.
It’s quite funny. Because it’s obvious he hasn’t read it, the Bible is not a fun read full of action. He has probably just seen movies and assumed this is the translation of the Bible.
The kid isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Dont mind folks who disagree with Cliffs views but the kid has a serious problem following a logical, consistent train of thought. It was difficult to listen to but kuddos for cliff for being patient.
Cliffe has an interesting style and talent with his teaching at the end of the videos. Very direct and an even flow of the words. Easy to see he believes and his experince in life has proven his beliefs are truth.
+TipsyTerby I totally agree. I felt a little bit sorry for this young man. It seemed like he was trying to show that he knew something, but it made him look like he didn't. He was comparing very different things, such as the mythology he kept alluding to, as if it had some parallel to Biblical text. I wonder if he would argue that the Revolutionary War ever happened, since there are fictional stories of wars. Cliffe kept trying to get him on a track of thinking.
Why do atheists keep saying it is only 1 book that talks about Jesus and claims he's God? Do they have trouble understanding that it a bunch of books, letters and documents that were collected into 1. If you took all the stories written about Abraham Lincoln and combined them into one book, would that mean that it is invalidated?
Pastor Cliffe, Thank you for your Ministry and Devotion. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:3-4 For I Delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: That CHRIST Died For Our Sins in accordance with the Scriptures, That HE Was Buried, That HE Was RAISED on The Third Day in accordance with The Scriptures. Hallelujah, AMEN
What an awesome example of sharing your faith also of defending your faith! 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
What a disgrace that some comments are calling this guy names! Thank goodness Cliffe is out there and not there guys from the comment section. Of course his "arguments" are poor or better not to called "arguments" but nobody as a christian should call him names. His problem is obviously that he does not want to believe or cosinder that Jesus was the very person that is described in the gospels.
Here are the historians whose writings are not included in the bible and the gospels that right about or mention Jesus: Thallus (52 A.D.) - perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus Tacitus (56 - 120 A.D.) - known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. Mara Bar-Serapion (70 A.D.) - a Syrian philosopher, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. Phlegon (80 - 140 A.D.) - who wrote a chronicle of history around 140 A.D. Pliny the Younger (61 - 113 A.D.) Suetonius (69 - 140 A.D.) - a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian Celsus (175 A.D.) Julius Africanus (221 A.D.) Jewish Accounts Josephus (37 - 101 A.D.)
Ppl will go CRAZY trying to figure the world everything science everything came after the universe now man trying to put the pieces together when its already together.
16:50 guy, he sounds scared and lonely... I felt like giving him a hug and saying "Jesus Love You and whatever you are going through in life right now, if you trust in Him, He will be with you through both the bad and the good." I'd encourage someone to do that to someone who is a state of depression or lostness. I am yet to find one to encourage that way but I feel like Atheists need the Gospel taught to them and to make payers for them more because they live in this world where their worth is defined by material things and really they can't fill in that gap that God can fill in with no objection at all if all they can do is to trust Him and have faith.
It seems like those who claim to believe in atheist Dogma ask a lot of questions about their "hell." It seems like there's a good reason for such an individual to be thinking about his "hell" all the time.
I love the questions like "Does a good atheist go to hell"? hahah. I dont understand these people. You as an atheist know that hell is not real, so why the fuck are you scared that you might go there?? It is not real according to atheists, so why are you asking questions about a place that does not exist!?
Sad thing is people with agree that all these people that can't save them exists, but the one person that REALLY loves them, and DID save them (if they so choose to accept it) NO HE WAS A MYTH...
Calling out stupidity IS NOT WRONG!!! especially when it's self imposed, due to not taking life seriously!!! Insulting someone to hurt or denigrate is wrong! The last guy desperately needs to be shown how foolish his thoughtless approach to life is...it may rescue him from a Godless eternity!
Ppl have a hard time believing God /jesus and the bible is real but any other book man write ppl hold so true too why when ppl buck there toe or mash there finger or going through hard hard times or having good times the only name they called is jesus or God why not any other name....we just hard wired to call on the CREATOR no matter what the circumstances may be.
God is love, so if an Atheist separates himself from God completely then the opposite of love (which is hate) will kick in. And that is the same for everything else. The more a human being distances himself from God, the more darkness he will have for God is love, justice, and holiness.
SuperSlartibartfast All religions have God, or something like God, as their core understanding: All human beings know for certain that God's unique qualities and activities are factual, and this includes you. Even the silly self-identified "atheist" has chosen a name for himself that includes one of God's Holy Names: _Theos_ is the Greek name for God. atheist total fail
what is it to be human? Become a great " I am" I am the way, I am the truth, I am the light of the world become the way, the truth and the light of the world. make sense of words.
My dad always told me he was and said you can prove it because pilate wrote about him as having blonde hair and blue eyes but from research that was written years after pilate died
In every Christian church- depending on the culture, their bibles, pictures and stained glass windows all depict Jesus with their particular ethnic characteristics.
Cliffe, you gotta stress what hell is as a faithful minister of Christ!, it's morethan a separation from God, it's a place of conscious eternal punishment where the fire never goes out!, a place of weeping and utter despair!!!, saying a separation from God doesn't portray the full picture..
Every time I try to tell my mom that Jesus was not white and that he was Jewish she tells me Jewish is not the right word because Jews are not a race there are no such things as Jews you can't be anti-semitic because there's all kinds of Semitic people out there so how do I explain to her what I'm trying to say
Humans have been on this planet for well over 100,000 years, why would Jesus appear in a fairly remote place on the planet only 2,000 years ago with his gift of redemption for mankind? What about the billions of people who lived and died before his supposed sacrifice.. were they not worthy of redemption offer?. Lets take the North American Indians as an example, the day after Jesus died on the cross, how did it effect them?, they wouldn't get to hear about Jesus for another 1,700 years, and even then, they already had their own sacred religion, why should they ditch their traditional faith for this new faith brought by the invading white man?, if I were a North American Indian, I'd stick with my own traditional faith rather than adopt this Jesus story. It makes no sense to me.
None are worthy of the redemption offer Bonnie, you fail to understand that we all stand guilty before a Holy God.. If anyone receives salvation it is because of God's grace.. Not because they deserve anything.. People think "I'm not that bad", because they compare themselves with other people (other sinners).. You can't understand what bad is until you know what good is, and there is none good but God.... If you are sincerely seeking answers, ask Him to show you, He will.... If you are looking for excuses to reject God and His authority in your life, you can find thousands.....
Jason Urchek Hi Jason, thanks for your reply, I'm not sure you fully grasped my point. Wasn't the point of Jesus crucifixion to take away our sins, and if we all accepted him into our hearts we could join him in heaven. He offered us salvation. Well what about the billions of people who lived before Jesus, or those who lived in parts of the world that hadn't heard of him, .. what was their fate?. Or take my situation, I have heard the good news ( the Jesus story), but I reject it, not because I want to sin, but simply because I don't believe it, so is my fate eternal hell? ( in whatever form that may take). You believe it I assume because you were raised to accept the whole story, but there are people living in other parts of the world who were raised to believe in a different faith, .. what does God do about them?. Regarding your other point about sincerely seeking answers, yes, I was raised Christian, and all my life I've asked questions regarding the Bible, and for me, the answers aren't forthcoming, and the questions I've asked people of faith, priests, pastors etc I've found wholly disappointing. How do you differentiate between your own conscience and the voice of the Lord for example?. I have a whole host of questions which I wont bore you with. Again, my rejection of Jesus/God has nothing to do with any desire to sin as you put it, .. it's purely down to scepticism of any supernatural agent, if I saw any credible proof, I would happily change my mind.
bonnie43uk Hi Bonnie, no problem.. Thanks for the challenging questions.. Let me first say that your argument which seems to say "its not fair" is based on some type of standard of fairness that you assume we all agree on... If there is no God, there is no objective standards of fair or unfair, right or wrong.. It is all up to each person or culture.. so your argument itself points to God, not that you believe in Him, but that He exists... The point of Jesus sacrifice was to take away the sins of those who would repent and believe.. First of all let's get something straight, none of us deserve an opportunity to even hear the gospel, we deserve Hell Bonnie, we sin more than we know, we don't recognize it because we are in darkness.. Until God's light shines in... The Bible doesn't directly say what happens to those who don't hear, but it does say if you do hear and reject, you will perish... I was raised in church, but not a Bible believing church, I was like nearly all of the people in America who claim to be Christian, I professed it, but wasn't truly a believer.. I didn't come to Christ until later in life.. All I can say Bonnie, is He is real and He has changed me, being born again is real.. I was lost but now I am found, I was blind but now I see... Christ tells us many will profess His name and are not true believers (this was me).... Lastly, the fact that you said "but I reject it, not because I want to sin" leads me to think you don't fully understand and were never taught the truth.. We are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners- it's who we are, it's what we love. We follow false idols all day long and justify ourselves through pride and self righteousness.. We aren't thankful, we don't give glory to God, and we don't want what God wants because we want to be God.. We want to be the authority in' our lives.. And all these things I just mentioned are so natural to us and to the world, that we don't even recognize we do them... The Bible says we are enemies of God until we are born again Romans 5:10...... Christ died for the ungodly Romans 5:6..... And my favorite Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...... No one deserves anything but punishment.. If God is a just judge, He MUST punish sinners(law breakers).. He doesn't have to pardon the guilty, but through His love and mercy He chose to take our punishment on the cross, so we can be forgiven... If you have time ,maybe you could read Romans chapters 1-5? Ask God to show you something, I will pray for you too... Also, there are many good Christian apologetic websites and youtube videos, you can probably get better answers from them, rather than from a comments page, where bums like me respond :)
Jason Urchek Thanks for your long reply Jason, you brought up quite a few things which i may not get time to address ( it's quite late here in the UK), so if i dont get time to answer all of your points tonight, i may answer 2moro. I wouldn't say my argument points to their being a God, yes, morality is pretty much the same around the globe, but thats not down to God, it's because we humans are social creatures, we perform better in groups, it benefits us to treat eachother with respect. If we break those social boundaries, there are consequences.. steal or cheat and you will hopefully get caught and pay for it. Anyhoo, morality is a huge subject, i will leave it there for now. I reject the claim that we all deserve hell, thats a terrible mindset to have. So when you hold a new born baby in your arms, in the back of your mind you think it deserves hell because it's a sinner. As an atheist i rarely use the word "sin", it's also not a word that is used much in daily life here in England, it has religious connotations. I would never use it in daily conversation with anyone. Good and bad yes, but not sin. In the same way that you say God has changed you, my life has also been transformed tenfold by becoming an atheist, it opened my eyes to the sheer wonder of life, having a better understanding of nature and how it all fits together. I've also come to a far better understanding of history and how this planet was formed. I do not make the claim God does not exist, i merely lack belief, if there is any type of creator I'm virtually certain he doesn't have a son called Jesus, I think that whole thing is a myth, outside of the bible itself, there is little evidence from non Christian sources, the famous Josephus paragraph is widely seen as an interpolation, written in a different style to the rest of Josephus's work ( although many Christian apologists beg to differ). Certainly there is evidence of an early band of people calling themselves Christians, but that's hardly evidence for Jesus himself. We have better evidence for Joseph Smiths golden plates story preached by the Mormons, signed witness statements etc, but that doesn't make Mormonism true. If a man called Jesus existed, I certainly don't believe he was in any way divine, Paul who wrote Romans never met Jesus, ( except via some dream), to the best of my recollection he never mentions any of Jesus's miracles, which seems a glaring omission if he wanted to spread the word of Jesus to the masses. If Christianity works for you Jason, all well and good, but I need a lot more convincing to believe in it. I know you said you would pray for me, I'm not a believer in prayer, there is no evidence to suggest it works from what I've seen. I also don't feel as though I need to be prayed for. If God truly wants me to know him, he'll find a way. As i said, my rejection of Jesus and God isn't because it's an excuse to "sin" as many Christians seem to think, it's purely because I've seen no evidence for God in my life up to now. Let me ask you this Jason, could God heal an amputee?, if he could, why hasn't he done up to now? Thousands of Christians have lost limbs for various reasons over the years, I'm sure many of them would have prayed to God in all earnestness to have the full use of their missing limb again, but God doesn't answer their prayer, yet millions of Christians will claim God answered their prayer by healing any number of other ailments. It doesn't add up to me. Anyhoo, really late here, must go to bed. Cheers for your reply again.
bonnie43uk Ok how does it benefit a powerful group or person to respect the weaker group's property when there is no law to protect them? To say everyone respects everyone so everyone can get along is a leap of faith.. See this is the problem, you demand all this evidence for God but can't see your own beliefs take faith...The whole problem with Mormonism is that it disagrees with what the Bible teaches, not that there is no evidence for Joseph Smith.. The evidence points to Jesus Christ as being real and as being reliable.. Have you watched any other of Cliffe's videos? He explains it better than I can... Ok prayer's main purpose is not to fulfill our wish lists, but to grow in our relationship with God.. I don't know why God doesn't heal amputees today (IF He doesn't, I don't know every amputee that exists and existed).. And God changing my life is not the same as atheism changing your life.. God's Holy Spirit coming into a believer's heart and life is not the same as you choosing to see things differently to support your new belief.. Yes babies are sinners Bonnie, that's why we need to teach them to share, to not hit, to not steal, to not lie.. why are those things so natural to them? But aren't they social creatures with an instinct to respect others? No way, that belief is faith grounded on your worldview... Babies and little children don't have time to understand reason and sin yet, so they aren't punished for it.. But we do understand we do wrong, and I say wrong or bad because there are objective morals.. Sure you can try to define "bad" or "wrong" all you want but you have to admit in reality there is no "bad", there are just opinions, if there is no God... One man says this another says that.. None are right none are wrong...
The 2nd kid debating that the bible is a mythological narrative is a prime example of people who are scared to test their truth. He formulated a conclusion in his head to disregard the bible as myth and when it got hot in the kitchen, he had to leave. 😆 I never get over people who say "Exactly" after making no point.
It’s quite funny. Because it’s obvious he hasn’t read it, the Bible is not a fun read full of action. He has probably just seen movies and assumed this is the translation of the Bible.
The kid isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Dont mind folks who disagree with Cliffs views but the kid has a serious problem following a logical, consistent train of thought. It was difficult to listen to but kuddos for cliff for being patient.
Cliffe has the patience of a saint...
More like Job but I agree
How do these kids get into college? Have we lowered the bar that much?
Both rhetorical questions....save it.
Nah, this is what they are teaching them.. Obviously... (Cliffe crack, sorry I had to say it)
Cliffe has an interesting style and talent with his teaching at the end of the videos. Very direct and an even flow of the words. Easy to see he believes and his experince in life has proven his beliefs are truth.
Its actually sad how people think in this day and age, Jesus have mercy on them.
+TipsyTerby I totally agree. I felt a little bit sorry for this young man. It seemed like he was trying to show that he knew something, but it made him look like he didn't. He was comparing very different things, such as the mythology he kept alluding to, as if it had some parallel to Biblical text. I wonder if he would argue that the Revolutionary War ever happened, since there are fictional stories of wars. Cliffe kept trying to get him on a track of thinking.
That last guy was a trip. Whoa dude, surfs up bro. How is he in college?
Lolz
just shows how people are willing to accept the devil's lies and tricks..
Why do atheists keep saying it is only 1 book that talks about Jesus and claims he's God? Do they have trouble understanding that it a bunch of books, letters and documents that were collected into 1. If you took all the stories written about Abraham Lincoln and combined them into one book, would that mean that it is invalidated?
That first kid didn't want a legit discussion
The believer in atheist Dogma never doe: All he ever really wants is to spread lies and hatred.
Pastor Cliffe, Thank you for your Ministry and Devotion. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:3-4 For I Delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: That CHRIST Died For Our Sins in accordance with the Scriptures, That HE Was Buried, That HE Was RAISED on The Third Day in accordance with The Scriptures. Hallelujah, AMEN
Bout puked watching the first kid 😂
What an awesome example of sharing your faith also of defending your faith!
2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
Nice, the timestamp skips the intro perfectly too 😄
Cliffe! you are one, nice and truthful person. I hope you carry on and continue with your work very strongly :)
What a disgrace that some comments are calling this guy names! Thank goodness Cliffe is out there and not there guys from the comment section.
Of course his "arguments" are poor or better not to called "arguments" but nobody as a christian should call him names. His problem is obviously that he does not want to believe or cosinder that Jesus was the very person that is described in the gospels.
Here are the historians whose writings are not included in the bible and the gospels that right about or mention Jesus:
Thallus (52 A.D.) - perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus
Tacitus (56 - 120 A.D.) - known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians.
Mara Bar-Serapion (70 A.D.) - a Syrian philosopher, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas.
Phlegon (80 - 140 A.D.) - who wrote a chronicle of history around 140 A.D.
Pliny the Younger (61 - 113 A.D.)
Suetonius (69 - 140 A.D.) - a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian
Celsus (175 A.D.)
Julius Africanus (221 A.D.)
Jewish Accounts
Josephus (37 - 101 A.D.)
Ppl will go CRAZY trying to figure the world everything science everything came after the universe now man trying to put the pieces together when its already together.
lol 😂 yo cliff is that good friend that sticks with you to help you understand difficult concepts from class 12:08
Without God, there could be no objective good or evil, and yet there are.
This guy had no valid information to back up what he was saying. He was arguing on belief, Cliffe was debating on fact.
🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ oh boy!!! Cliffe is a patient man!
wanted to see more of the last conversation
Thank you!
16:50 guy, he sounds scared and lonely... I felt like giving him a hug and saying "Jesus Love You and whatever you are going through in life right now, if you trust in Him, He will be with you through both the bad and the good." I'd encourage someone to do that to someone who is a state of depression or lostness. I am yet to find one to encourage that way but I feel like Atheists need the Gospel taught to them and to make payers for them more because they live in this world where their worth is defined by material things and really they can't fill in that gap that God can fill in with no objection at all if all they can do is to trust Him and have faith.
Good stuff Cliffe 👍
This kid did not want a discussion.
He wanted to get his point across and not learn.
The models posing for the painting looked that way
It seems like those who claim to believe in atheist Dogma ask a lot of questions about their "hell."
It seems like there's a good reason for such an individual to be thinking about his "hell" all the time.
That nod to Venezuelans at the end 🙏🏻. Too bad if hat to be through Chavez 😅
Satan disliked this video
Without God, there could be no objective means to determine what makes sense
and what does not, and yet there are.
what school is this??
Amen
I love the questions like "Does a good atheist go to hell"? hahah. I dont understand these people. You as an atheist know that hell is not real, so why the fuck are you scared that you might go there?? It is not real according to atheists, so why are you asking questions about a place that does not exist!?
+Alexandar Ostojic Romans 1:20
Sad thing is people with agree that all these people that can't save them exists, but the one person that REALLY loves them, and DID save them (if they so choose to accept it) NO HE WAS A MYTH...
Who gives birth to these kids?
Calling out stupidity IS NOT WRONG!!! especially when it's self imposed, due to not taking life seriously!!! Insulting someone to hurt or denigrate is wrong! The last guy desperately needs to be shown how foolish his thoughtless approach to life is...it may rescue him from a Godless eternity!
Ppl have a hard time believing God /jesus and the bible is real but any other book man write ppl hold so true too why when ppl buck there toe or mash there finger or going through hard hard times or having good times the only name they called is jesus or God why not any other name....we just hard wired to call on the CREATOR no matter what the circumstances may be.
The second man definitely goes to cos play
God is love, so if an Atheist separates himself from God completely then the opposite of love (which is hate) will kick in. And that is the same for everything else. The more a human being distances himself from God, the more darkness he will have for God is love, justice, and holiness.
What about someone who has never heard of your god?
SuperSlartibartfast All human beings know for certain that God's unique qualities and activities are factual, and this includes you.
*****
That's patently false otherwise there wouldn't be other religions.
SuperSlartibartfast All religions have God, or something like God, as their core understanding: All human beings know for certain that God's unique qualities and activities are factual, and this includes you.
Even the silly self-identified "atheist" has chosen a name for himself that includes one of God's Holy Names: _Theos_ is the Greek name for God.
atheist total fail
SuperSlartibartfast All human beings know for certain
that God's unique qualities and activities are factual.
Hold the phone junior Jesus had a lot more that 12 disciples
i thought pilate wrote a letter to tiberius with a description of jesus and claimed he had blue eyes?
The first kids about the Gospel being a reboot. I can't... As if Cliffe completely missed that during his studies.
This kid can read ?
This kid needs to stick to playing magic the gathering. And play magical creatures how is he in college.
what is it to be human? Become a great " I am"
I am the way, I am the truth, I am the light of the world
become the way, the truth and the light of the world. make sense of words.
All this guy needs to do is just read the bible.....
What!? No one of note promotes a blonde Jesus/Yeshua. A non issue.
My dad always told me he was and said you can prove it because pilate wrote about him as having blonde hair and blue eyes but from research that was written years after pilate died
Dude MTV told me fo man .
Like wow
What the hell is this stupid people day
Without God, there could be no objective moral compass, and yet there is.
the first kid can't even speak, this is sad, isn't this suppose to be college??
Without God, there could be no objective justice, and yet there is.
In every Christian church- depending on the culture, their bibles, pictures and stained glass windows all depict Jesus with their particular ethnic characteristics.
This kids can't figure out 2+2much less any thing above a coloring book
Cliffe, you gotta stress what hell is as a faithful minister of Christ!, it's morethan a separation from God, it's a place of conscious eternal punishment where the fire never goes out!, a place of weeping and utter despair!!!, saying a separation from God doesn't portray the full picture..
Where in the bible does it give a description of hell
what is obvious is that this boy do not know how to respect truth.
see what Jesus said. read Bible on line NIV
He had autism feel bad tbh
Every time I try to tell my mom that Jesus was not white and that he was Jewish she tells me Jewish is not the right word because Jews are not a race there are no such things as Jews you can't be anti-semitic because there's all kinds of Semitic people out there so how do I explain to her what I'm trying to say
Wow this first guy literally doesn’t know anything about the Bible but is so desperate to disprove Christ he literally makes stuff up
Humans have been on this planet for well over 100,000 years, why would Jesus appear in a fairly remote place on the planet only 2,000 years ago with his gift of redemption for mankind? What about the billions of people who lived and died before his supposed sacrifice.. were they not worthy of redemption offer?. Lets take the North American Indians as an example, the day after Jesus died on the cross, how did it effect them?, they wouldn't get to hear about Jesus for another 1,700 years, and even then, they already had their own sacred religion, why should they ditch their traditional faith for this new faith brought by the invading white man?, if I were a North American Indian, I'd stick with my own traditional faith rather than adopt this Jesus story. It makes no sense to me.
None are worthy of the redemption offer Bonnie, you fail to understand that we all stand guilty before a Holy God.. If anyone receives salvation it is because of God's grace.. Not because they deserve anything.. People think "I'm not that bad", because they compare themselves with other people (other sinners).. You can't understand what bad is until you know what good is, and there is none good but God.... If you are sincerely seeking answers, ask Him to show you, He will.... If you are looking for excuses to reject God and His authority in your life, you can find thousands.....
Jason Urchek Hi Jason, thanks for your reply, I'm not sure you fully grasped my point. Wasn't the point of Jesus crucifixion to take away our sins, and if we all accepted him into our hearts we could join him in heaven. He offered us salvation. Well what about the billions of people who lived before Jesus, or those who lived in parts of the world that hadn't heard of him, .. what was their fate?. Or take my situation, I have heard the good news ( the Jesus story), but I reject it, not because I want to sin, but simply because I don't believe it, so is my fate eternal hell? ( in whatever form that may take). You believe it I assume because you were raised to accept the whole story, but there are people living in other parts of the world who were raised to believe in a different faith, .. what does God do about them?. Regarding your other point about sincerely seeking answers, yes, I was raised Christian, and all my life I've asked questions regarding the Bible, and for me, the answers aren't forthcoming, and the questions I've asked people of faith, priests, pastors etc I've found wholly disappointing. How do you differentiate between your own conscience and the voice of the Lord for example?. I have a whole host of questions which I wont bore you with. Again, my rejection of Jesus/God has nothing to do with any desire to sin as you put it, .. it's purely down to scepticism of any supernatural agent, if I saw any credible proof, I would happily change my mind.
bonnie43uk Hi Bonnie, no problem.. Thanks for the challenging questions..
Let me first say that your argument which seems to say "its not fair" is based on some type of standard of fairness that you assume we all agree on... If there is no God, there is no objective standards of fair or unfair, right or wrong.. It is all up to each person or culture.. so your argument itself points to God, not that you believe in Him, but that He exists...
The point of Jesus sacrifice was to take away the sins of those who would repent and believe.. First of all let's get something straight, none of us deserve an opportunity to even hear the gospel, we deserve Hell Bonnie, we sin more than we know, we don't recognize it because we are in darkness.. Until God's light shines in...
The Bible doesn't directly say what happens to those who don't hear, but it does say if you do hear and reject, you will perish...
I was raised in church, but not a Bible believing church, I was like nearly all of the people in America who claim to be Christian, I professed it, but wasn't truly a believer.. I didn't come to Christ until later in life.. All I can say Bonnie, is He is real and He has changed me, being born again is real.. I was lost but now I am found, I was blind but now I see... Christ tells us many will profess His name and are not true believers (this was me)....
Lastly, the fact that you said "but I reject it, not because I want to sin" leads me to think you don't fully understand and were never taught the truth.. We are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners- it's who we are, it's what we love. We follow false idols all day long and justify ourselves through pride and self righteousness.. We aren't thankful, we don't give glory to God, and we don't want what God wants because we want to be God.. We want to be the authority in' our lives.. And all these things I just mentioned are so natural to us and to the world, that we don't even recognize we do them... The Bible says we are enemies of God until we are born again Romans 5:10...... Christ died for the ungodly Romans 5:6..... And my favorite Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...... No one deserves anything but punishment.. If God is a just judge, He MUST punish sinners(law breakers).. He doesn't have to pardon the guilty, but through His love and mercy He chose to take our punishment on the cross, so we can be forgiven...
If you have time ,maybe you could read Romans chapters 1-5? Ask God to show you something, I will pray for you too... Also, there are many good Christian apologetic websites and youtube videos, you can probably get better answers from them, rather than from a comments page, where bums like me respond :)
Jason Urchek Thanks for your long reply Jason, you brought up quite a few things which i may not get time to address ( it's quite late here in the UK), so if i dont get time to answer all of your points tonight, i may answer 2moro. I wouldn't say my argument points to their being a God, yes, morality is pretty much the same around the globe, but thats not down to God, it's because we humans are social creatures, we perform better in groups, it benefits us to treat eachother with respect. If we break those social boundaries, there are consequences.. steal or cheat and you will hopefully get caught and pay for it. Anyhoo, morality is a huge subject, i will leave it there for now.
I reject the claim that we all deserve hell, thats a terrible mindset to have. So when you hold a new born baby in your arms, in the back of your mind you think it deserves hell because it's a sinner. As an atheist i rarely use the word "sin", it's also not a word that is used much in daily life here in England, it has religious connotations. I would never use it in daily conversation with anyone. Good and bad yes, but not sin.
In the same way that you say God has changed you, my life has also been transformed tenfold by becoming an atheist, it opened my eyes to the sheer wonder of life, having a better understanding of nature and how it all fits together. I've also come to a far better understanding of history and how this planet was formed. I do not make the claim God does not exist, i merely lack belief, if there is any type of creator I'm virtually certain he doesn't have a son called Jesus, I think that whole thing is a myth, outside of the bible itself, there is little evidence from non Christian sources, the famous Josephus paragraph is widely seen as an interpolation, written in a different style to the rest of Josephus's work ( although many Christian apologists beg to differ). Certainly there is evidence of an early band of people calling themselves Christians, but that's hardly evidence for Jesus himself. We have better evidence for Joseph Smiths golden plates story preached by the Mormons, signed witness statements etc, but that doesn't make Mormonism true. If a man called Jesus existed, I certainly don't believe he was in any way divine, Paul who wrote Romans never met Jesus, ( except via some dream), to the best of my recollection he never mentions any of Jesus's miracles, which seems a glaring omission if he wanted to spread the word of Jesus to the masses.
If Christianity works for you Jason, all well and good, but I need a lot more convincing to believe in it. I know you said you would pray for me, I'm not a believer in prayer, there is no evidence to suggest it works from what I've seen. I also don't feel as though I need to be prayed for. If God truly wants me to know him, he'll find a way. As i said, my rejection of Jesus and God isn't because it's an excuse to "sin" as many Christians seem to think, it's purely because I've seen no evidence for God in my life up to now. Let me ask you this Jason, could God heal an amputee?, if he could, why hasn't he done up to now? Thousands of Christians have lost limbs for various reasons over the years, I'm sure many of them would have prayed to God in all earnestness to have the full use of their missing limb again, but God doesn't answer their prayer, yet millions of Christians will claim God answered their prayer by healing any number of other ailments. It doesn't add up to me.
Anyhoo, really late here, must go to bed.
Cheers for your reply again.
bonnie43uk Ok how does it benefit a powerful group or person to respect the weaker group's property when there is no law to protect them? To say everyone respects everyone so everyone can get along is a leap of faith.. See this is the problem, you demand all this evidence for God but can't see your own beliefs take faith...The whole problem with Mormonism is that it disagrees with what the Bible teaches, not that there is no evidence for Joseph Smith.. The evidence points to Jesus Christ as being real and as being reliable.. Have you watched any other of Cliffe's videos? He explains it better than I can... Ok prayer's main purpose is not to fulfill our wish lists, but to grow in our relationship with God.. I don't know why God doesn't heal amputees today (IF He doesn't, I don't know every amputee that exists and existed).. And God changing my life is not the same as atheism changing your life.. God's Holy Spirit coming into a believer's heart and life is not the same as you choosing to see things differently to support your new belief.. Yes babies are sinners Bonnie, that's why we need to teach them to share, to not hit, to not steal, to not lie.. why are those things so natural to them? But aren't they social creatures with an instinct to respect others? No way, that belief is faith grounded on your worldview... Babies and little children don't have time to understand reason and sin yet, so they aren't punished for it.. But we do understand we do wrong, and I say wrong or bad because there are objective morals.. Sure you can try to define "bad" or "wrong" all you want but you have to admit in reality there is no "bad", there are just opinions, if there is no God... One man says this another says that.. None are right none are wrong...
Poor kid