I've been loving your content for a while. You really are one of the most succinct, knowledgeable writing youtubers around. And you always have great examples. I hope your channel can grow more! You deserve the recognition!
To answer the question; what is one book I’ve read that uses deep point of view - there’s many but one specific one that I think is worth highlighting is Cujo. Not for any of the human characters themselves, but of Cujo himself. Stephen King writes a lot of good deep POV, but writing deep POV for a dog with rabies was very impressive to me and I thought it was done brilliantly. In particular, the portions of the story _before_ Cujo is at a point of full on rabies, but the portions of the story where the rabies is starting to set in and dominate Cujo’s brain. Just the way Stephen King wrote Cujo’s perspective of the world around him as his mind rotted away. He was writing from the dog’s POV how he was slowly starting to no longer recognize his owners and stuff like that. Obviously we have no idea what rabies is like for a dog or any other animal for that matter. We don’t know how it makes them perceive the world. But the way Stephen King wrote it for Cujo was very fascinating and enthralling in my opinion, and probably the most memorable aspect of the book for me personally. It made me really wonder what rabies must actually be like for a dog or any animal really.
Stephen king is a wizard at this style. I have tried to learn his style without actually knowing what it was called. Thank you for putting a name to it for me.
Nice to see, haha! I've loved reading The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie-a great example of how to use deep third pov. I love writing it in first as well. The Hunger Games uses first-person deep pov as well; dipping in and out of it in specific passages. Some confuse third limited; its more; its being the character as they move about, experience; turning a narrative into the skin of the character.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Figured I'd move this here(makes more sense if people see it). Here's an extra point on Deep pov(and why it's also another fancy term for complex writing). I picked this up from watching Shaelin's video on “writing complex characters” , but essentially you know close third and first-person gives you access to the characters “inside” and internal conflict, right? And if you go back to my longer comment about “Storytelling Art vs Immersive Art”, the idea should begin to click there as I started explaining this. Anyway, the idea extends to being: “With these close perspectives, we get access to the psychology of the character”. So, whether you know how to use “stream-of-consciousness”, this is the closest method and allows us to write on the page what you called our character's “hidden layers” or their **subconscious**-well, with stream-of-consciousness, we can write it that way and actually **show** in character thought narration/monologue(and actions like idiosyncrasies/Flaws, if it pertains to the character) how they form their Misbeliefs(Flaws and Wants vs Fear) almost outright intuitively since the narrative is essentially coming from their brain(past tense is more communicative to the reader, whereas present tense gives us this “in-the-moment” decision-making of Misbeliefs because it follows a “real-time” pacing). Present tense lends itself to deep POV more than past tense because past is a retelling of what _had_ happened and they aren't going to remember all the details, whereas present is _still_ happening and more visceral in this regard. Just something to consider on tense as to how characters will narrate, but I prefer present tense for that reason. Deep pov tends to have all these actions and minor details in nearly every scene to describe it, and you can also do that actively with thier internal monologue **as** the scene plays out, so you get the advantage farther perspectives like third-limited and omniscient can't give. Likewise, if you prefer third and know how to close-in with psychic distance, you can get away with this type of deep pov writing in close-third and carry on with the character's perspective of a scene rather than just the outside narrator so we get to see how they form their choices, goals, and decisions inside their head. A tip from me: Always overwrite; never underwrite. Because it's easier to cut what you _do_ know from your work over what you don't know when you go to back to cut and fix it(if you underwrite). Overwriting lends itself to the benefit of summarizing and picking and choosing what details not to do so and leave in during editing. Filmmaking does the same principal: they have this really long cut of footage they have to trim down, and likewise as novelists, our goals are to have the “writer's cut” of words(first draft), so we know what to trim down into the final cut(what movies are made out of, and novel's final drafts).
best pov ever because of how similar it is to 'objective' yet the narrative voice is allowed to the the character voice's thoughts in this one. by far best pov is multiple ovjective, which reads the way we see movies. but not being able to decribe inner thoughts is hard freaking core. so this is a great way to coin the sub-sub-category, its like pseudo-subjective multiple/limited
I write mostly in deep POV. It brings immediacy. Sucks the reader right into the story. Helps me get into the characters faster than when I try to write with more distance. As a pantser, deep POV, for me, makes the writing easier.
Another great video Brandon. Thank you! I am writing my first novel, a thriller, and I didn't realize that there was a term for what I was using at times with my characters. It was important for me to hear what you added at the very end which was that the DPOV does not have to be used, nor should it, for the entire novel. Thank yo so much! We all greatly appreciate the wisdom and education that you provide in your videos.
Warcraft illidan my favorite deep POV. Haven’t found anyone who likes it as much as I do- maybe I just enjoy it so much cause WoW rpg was my life for years 😅🤓
Deep 3rd person POV is how I'm writing my novel. I have almost finished the first draft. My first edit will be to go through and make sure I'm deep. I want my readers to feel they are as close to these characters as the can be. That's my number one goal. Thank you for this video.
Thank you for using an example from a novel in this one. I don't mind the filmic referenes, but I will admit I tend to glaze over them. Getting back on the writing horse (again) after a tumultuous year, having moved three times. Your "finish" stickynote technique propelled me to get a lot of work done - and then I had to move again and upset the whole applecart. Thanks Brandon.
I've been watching your excellent videos for the past month or so - getting caught up, if you will. I took interest in this one in particular because I was encouraged to write my first novel in the Close POV. I struggled with it, but I think it was highly useful as the story I wrote was character-driven. I can understand when writers say that it is a lot of work - it is.
Awesome, just what I needed. Wrote my first novel in 1st person and was kind of dissatisfied with the POV choice. Very hard to avoid using I in sentences, but loved being in the characters mind. My second novel will definitely be in 3rd person close. Was just worried because it is only one POV.
I didn't know this is what it was called, but "Deep POV" is my favorite and what I wrote my novel using. It's the most immersive to me, which is great for high fantasy imo, and I love that it by default gives you "unreliable narrators," because everyone's POV is unreliable... just like in RL =) Thanks Brandon, and keep on writing!
Classic science fiction author A.E. van Vogt is a master of deep POV. Frank Herbert uses it to good effect in "The Dosadi Experiment". The opening scene of Isaac Asimov's "The Stars, Like Dust" uses it.
Hi Brandon, another excellent video. The valuable tip at 6:10 that you gave, I didn't find in any other video or on any website. You make a lot of sense. This said, I wonder if you would have time to give advice on how to handle the dialogue when the POV has a conversation with numours characters. Let's say, a group of 5 people. Do you let them all contribute to the conversation? Or do just mention that they are there and do you let the POV and mainly one of the group talk? What would your tips here?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty It is hard to imagine that you stuggle with anything that has to do with writing, Brandon. :) Well, I was thinking about a crime boss who has a meeting with four of his gang members talking about making the shop owners in town paying more for their "protection". Each one of these gang members cover a direction, either the north, south, east or west district. What would be the best way to go about it? Would you give all four equal time to reply in words or just one or two and the rest nods in agreement or just sweats?
Brandon, this is very helpful! Something I write right now is in deep pov because I think it suits the plot and more immersive. At that time, I didn't know that this is called deep pov, but I know that this is so hard. It's outside of my comfort zone, since normally I don't write heavy description. But the fact that you say this is not something I should use all the time is very relieving for me. Phew. I'm so... glad. I don't remember books in deep pov, but I have read some. Sometimes people write it too description-heavy and detailed that I just glaze over it. Is the risk of deep pov "overwriting"?
On my first WIP novel and guess what? It's in deep third person POV. I've progressed and gotten better. However, occasionally I'll slip and the narrator pops out. But I'm up for the challenge. Thanks for this video Brandon. I'm currently reading 'None of this is true' by Lisa Jewel. In third person close. However, hers seems easier because she gets to head hop between 2 c characters. Mine is a slam dunk MC mind f×÷k roller coaster for approx 80 - 100,000 words. If I get it right it'll be exciting!❤
It’s not written in third person, but Altered Carbon by Richard K Morgan uses a “deep first person.” We get the raw feelings and sensations. It could easily be the written to deep third person with some pronoun shifts and inserting the POV characters name in certain places
I have a question about progress. Some times I hear my readers are swimming in the content (which for me serve a purpose but that will only be clear later on), that they do not know what they have to focus on and no clear sense of direction. How do you keep readers engaged with the progress of the plot and character? One "trick" that comes to mind is in Hesse's Steppenwolf, where the reader is informed early on that the narrator is asked to kill his friend Hermine, thus you are curious to see if that will indeed happen.
This is really helpful, I have a tendency to use a lot of filter words without realizing they are detaching the reader from the character. Weird question, but Is there ever a reason that you would want to create that sense of detachment between the reader and the character? Can it ever work to the benefit of your story?
Great video. Could you do one on deep POV vs. distant POV? I know that Cormac McCarthy and Anthony Doerr intentionally use distant POV because they think it adds a sense of bleakness.
Thank you. I'm currently working on a story told in 2nd person. It's hard to know if it's the right choice or if deep would be a better reading experience.
Hi, I appreciate your simple and concise advices for months now. So, my writing getting better too.. thank you. But, recently someone read my MS mentioned about I can't mixed deep POV 1st person with Omniscient third person POV. Is it true? Why? Now, I'm stuck and in dilema if my way of convey my story may other people confused😣😣 Thanks
Omniscient requires an All-Knowing Narrator with a consistent voice. If you're writing in omniscient, you can drop into Deep POV since an omniscient narrator can know any character's inner thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc. I just discussed Omniscient POV in yesterday's video. Take a look when you get time: th-cam.com/video/IRfjwfuWtL4/w-d-xo.html
Excellent video Brandon. Exactly what I wanted for my writing. Also I would appreaciate advice on first person POV if possible. Basically Protagonist's portion of the story is told in first person deep POV while other main characters from third person, but I kind off struggle with the unconscious actions. For example there is a scene with Protagonist alone in his room strategizing about future battle and reader is immersed in his thought proccess but he starts to bite his nails out of stress without even realizing it and stops once he found solution. Since he did not notice it himself and was alone how can I naturally show it to the reader? Thanks in advance.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Thanks for taking the request. More things in First person? How to not get carried away with observations and inner monologue and keep the narrative "in the moment" would be fine too since inner monologue can be extensive at times.
I tend to always write in "deep pov" I didn't know what it was called, I thought it was just a 3rd pov, but that I was writing it weird. I can't help but do it. The issue I have, it seems to make scenes take longer than I like, and is a real big cat-and-mouse game of trimming everything down.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Very tough decision since they are so different. I would say Entry Wounds though. You really went all in and didn't shy away from the darker aspects ( Esp with the horrors of addiction).
@@kbill4478 Awesome, glad you enjoyed them both! Please consider leaving brief (1-2 sentence) Amazon reviews when you get a chance. Reviews help a TON. Thank you so much for checking them out
I've been loving your content for a while. You really are one of the most succinct, knowledgeable writing youtubers around. And you always have great examples. I hope your channel can grow more! You deserve the recognition!
Awesome! Thank you for the kind words!
I just subscribed.. It"s the first time that I have seen this channel. Brandon is quite succinct
@@ddmo55 Thank you!
To answer the question; what is one book I’ve read that uses deep point of view - there’s many but one specific one that I think is worth highlighting is Cujo. Not for any of the human characters themselves, but of Cujo himself. Stephen King writes a lot of good deep POV, but writing deep POV for a dog with rabies was very impressive to me and I thought it was done brilliantly. In particular, the portions of the story _before_ Cujo is at a point of full on rabies, but the portions of the story where the rabies is starting to set in and dominate Cujo’s brain. Just the way Stephen King wrote Cujo’s perspective of the world around him as his mind rotted away. He was writing from the dog’s POV how he was slowly starting to no longer recognize his owners and stuff like that. Obviously we have no idea what rabies is like for a dog or any other animal for that matter. We don’t know how it makes them perceive the world. But the way Stephen King wrote it for Cujo was very fascinating and enthralling in my opinion, and probably the most memorable aspect of the book for me personally. It made me really wonder what rabies must actually be like for a dog or any animal really.
The part where you said that you can save those for key moments, that's the winning part of the video. Flexibility. Awesome advice.
Thanks!
Stephen king is a wizard at this style. I have tried to learn his style without actually knowing what it was called. Thank you for putting a name to it for me.
I absolutely love your videos. They are concise, well organized, and insightful.
What's your favorite book that uses Deep POV? Let us know!
Nice to see, haha! I've loved reading The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie-a great example of how to use deep third pov. I love writing it in first as well. The Hunger Games uses first-person deep pov as well; dipping in and out of it in specific passages. Some confuse third limited; its more; its being the character as they move about, experience; turning a narrative into the skin of the character.
Your last sentence nails it perfectly
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Figured I'd move this here(makes more sense if people see it). Here's an extra point on Deep pov(and why it's also another fancy term for complex writing). I picked this up from watching Shaelin's video on “writing complex characters” , but essentially you know close third and first-person gives you access to the characters “inside” and internal conflict, right? And if you go back to my longer comment about “Storytelling Art vs Immersive Art”, the idea should begin to click there as I started explaining this. Anyway, the idea extends to being: “With these close perspectives, we get access to the psychology of the character”.
So, whether you know how to use “stream-of-consciousness”, this is the closest method and allows us to write on the page what you called our character's “hidden layers” or their **subconscious**-well, with stream-of-consciousness, we can write it that way and actually **show** in character thought narration/monologue(and actions like idiosyncrasies/Flaws, if it pertains to the character) how they form their Misbeliefs(Flaws and Wants vs Fear) almost outright intuitively since the narrative is essentially coming from their brain(past tense is more communicative to the reader, whereas present tense gives us this “in-the-moment” decision-making of Misbeliefs because it follows a “real-time” pacing). Present tense lends itself to deep POV more than past tense because past is a retelling of what _had_ happened and they aren't going to remember all the details, whereas present is _still_ happening and more visceral in this regard. Just something to consider on tense as to how characters will narrate, but I prefer present tense for that reason.
Deep pov tends to have all these actions and minor details in nearly every scene to describe it, and you can also do that actively with thier internal monologue **as** the scene plays out, so you get the advantage farther perspectives like third-limited and omniscient can't give. Likewise, if you prefer third and know how to close-in with psychic distance, you can get away with this type of deep pov writing in close-third and carry on with the character's perspective of a scene rather than just the outside narrator so we get to see how they form their choices, goals, and decisions inside their head.
A tip from me: Always overwrite; never underwrite. Because it's easier to cut what you _do_ know from your work over what you don't know when you go to back to cut and fix it(if you underwrite). Overwriting lends itself to the benefit of summarizing and picking and choosing what details not to do so and leave in during editing. Filmmaking does the same principal: they have this really long cut of footage they have to trim down, and likewise as novelists, our goals are to have the “writer's cut” of words(first draft), so we know what to trim down into the final cut(what movies are made out of, and novel's final drafts).
best pov ever because of how similar it is to 'objective' yet the narrative voice is allowed to the the character voice's thoughts in this one. by far best pov is multiple ovjective, which reads the way we see movies. but not being able to decribe inner thoughts is hard freaking core. so this is a great way to coin the sub-sub-category, its like pseudo-subjective multiple/limited
"Sub-sub-category" is a great way to put it. When done well, Deep POV is my favorite POV. It can be so immersive.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty absolutely
I write mostly in deep POV. It brings immediacy. Sucks the reader right into the story. Helps me get into the characters faster than when I try to write with more distance. As a pantser, deep POV, for me, makes the writing easier.
Another great video Brandon. Thank you! I am writing my first novel, a thriller, and I didn't realize that there was a term for what I was using at times with my characters. It was important for me to hear what you added at the very end which was that the DPOV does not have to be used, nor should it, for the entire novel. Thank yo so much! We all greatly appreciate the wisdom and education that you provide in your videos.
Warcraft illidan my favorite deep POV. Haven’t found anyone who likes it as much as I do- maybe I just enjoy it so much cause WoW rpg was my life for years 😅🤓
Never got into WoW. Also didn’t know they had novels based on it, but I’m not surprised given WoW’s popularity
Deep 3rd person POV is how I'm writing my novel. I have almost finished the first draft. My first edit will be to go through and make sure I'm deep. I want my readers to feel they are as close to these characters as the can be. That's my number one goal. Thank you for this video.
Thank you for using an example from a novel in this one. I don't mind the filmic referenes, but I will admit I tend to glaze over them. Getting back on the writing horse (again) after a tumultuous year, having moved three times. Your "finish" stickynote technique propelled me to get a lot of work done - and then I had to move again and upset the whole applecart. Thanks Brandon.
Awesome, best of luck with getting yourself focused again
I've been watching your excellent videos for the past month or so - getting caught up, if you will. I took interest in this one in particular because I was encouraged to write my first novel in the Close POV. I struggled with it, but I think it was highly useful as the story I wrote was character-driven. I can understand when writers say that it is a lot of work - it is.
Awesome, just what I needed. Wrote my first novel in 1st person and was kind of dissatisfied with the POV choice. Very hard to avoid using I in sentences, but loved being in the characters mind. My second novel will definitely be in 3rd person close. Was just worried because it is only one POV.
I didn't know this is what it was called, but "Deep POV" is my favorite and what I wrote my novel using. It's the most immersive to me, which is great for high fantasy imo, and I love that it by default gives you "unreliable narrators," because everyone's POV is unreliable... just like in RL =)
Thanks Brandon, and keep on writing!
Nicely done. Thank you.
By reading the title and later the definition, I thought it would imply first person narration. Interesting.
Divergent did a great job with deep pov
Great advice. Bless you for giving us this wisdom for free. Writing will be better because of your contribution.
Thank you.
You genius.
Thanks!
Excellent. Thank you.
Great stuff. Thanks.
Classic science fiction author A.E. van Vogt is a master of deep POV. Frank Herbert uses it to good effect in "The Dosadi Experiment". The opening scene of Isaac Asimov's "The Stars, Like Dust" uses it.
Good calls
Hi Brandon, another excellent video. The valuable tip at 6:10 that you gave, I didn't find in any other video or on any website. You make a lot of sense.
This said, I wonder if you would have time to give advice on how to handle the dialogue when the POV has a conversation with numours characters. Let's say, a group of 5 people. Do you let them all contribute to the conversation? Or do just mention that they are there and do you let the POV and mainly one of the group talk? What would your tips here?
That’s a great idea for a video because it’s something I struggle with myself. Do you have any specific things you’d like me to cover?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty It is hard to imagine that you stuggle with anything that has to do with writing, Brandon. :)
Well, I was thinking about a crime boss who has a meeting with four of his gang members talking about making the shop owners in town paying more for their "protection". Each one of these gang members cover a direction, either the north, south, east or west district. What would be the best way to go about it? Would you give all four equal time to reply in words or just one or two and the rest nods in agreement or just sweats?
@@thakiusmuckfeather1103 Haha I struggle with everything. Never gets easy.
I’ll get to work on your video and hopefully have it read in a couple weeks
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Great Brandon, I appreciate it. Take your time.
@@thakiusmuckfeather1103 Still need to get on this one. Don’t worry, I didn’t forget
Brandon, this is very helpful! Something I write right now is in deep pov because I think it suits the plot and more immersive. At that time, I didn't know that this is called deep pov, but I know that this is so hard. It's outside of my comfort zone, since normally I don't write heavy description. But the fact that you say this is not something I should use all the time is very relieving for me. Phew. I'm so... glad. I don't remember books in deep pov, but I have read some. Sometimes people write it too description-heavy and detailed that I just glaze over it. Is the risk of deep pov "overwriting"?
On my first WIP novel and guess what? It's in deep third person POV. I've progressed and gotten better. However, occasionally I'll slip and the narrator pops out. But I'm up for the challenge. Thanks for this video Brandon. I'm currently reading 'None of this is true' by Lisa Jewel. In third person close. However, hers seems easier because she gets to head hop between 2 c characters. Mine is a slam dunk MC mind f×÷k roller coaster for approx 80 - 100,000 words. If I get it right it'll be exciting!❤
It’s not written in third person, but Altered Carbon by Richard K Morgan uses a “deep first person.”
We get the raw feelings and sensations. It could easily be the written to deep third person with some pronoun shifts and inserting the POV characters name in certain places
I have a question about progress. Some times I hear my readers are swimming in the content (which for me serve a purpose but that will only be clear later on), that they do not know what they have to focus on and no clear sense of direction. How do you keep readers engaged with the progress of the plot and character? One "trick" that comes to mind is in Hesse's Steppenwolf, where the reader is informed early on that the narrator is asked to kill his friend Hermine, thus you are curious to see if that will indeed happen.
Best thing you can do is clearly establish what your character wants, whether it's their scene goal or overall goal
Lots of deep POV in "Hunting Old Sammie" by John Lauricella.
This is really helpful, I have a tendency to use a lot of filter words without realizing they are detaching the reader from the character. Weird question, but Is there ever a reason that you would want to create that sense of detachment between the reader and the character? Can it ever work to the benefit of your story?
Great video. Could you do one on deep POV vs. distant POV? I know that Cormac McCarthy and Anthony Doerr intentionally use distant POV because they think it adds a sense of bleakness.
You should make a video about 2nd person.
I actually covered it in previous POV video: th-cam.com/video/17yV5yRVXec/w-d-xo.html
Thank you. I'm currently working on a story told in 2nd person. It's hard to know if it's the right choice or if deep would be a better reading experience.
@@zacharylarson6157 Best of luck with it!
Hi, I appreciate your simple and concise advices for months now. So, my writing getting better too.. thank you. But, recently someone read my MS mentioned about I can't mixed deep POV 1st person with Omniscient third person POV. Is it true? Why? Now, I'm stuck and in dilema if my way of convey my story may other people confused😣😣
Thanks
Omniscient requires an All-Knowing Narrator with a consistent voice. If you're writing in omniscient, you can drop into Deep POV since an omniscient narrator can know any character's inner thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc.
I just discussed Omniscient POV in yesterday's video. Take a look when you get time: th-cam.com/video/IRfjwfuWtL4/w-d-xo.html
Tosca Lee's Progeny
Excellent video Brandon. Exactly what I wanted for my writing.
Also I would appreaciate advice on first person POV if possible.
Basically Protagonist's portion of the story is told in first person deep POV while other main characters from third person, but I kind off struggle with the unconscious actions.
For example there is a scene with Protagonist alone in his room strategizing about future battle and reader is immersed in his thought proccess but he starts to bite his nails out of stress without even realizing it and stops once he found solution. Since he did not notice it himself and was alone how can I naturally show it to the reader?
Thanks in advance.
Happy to take this request. Anything else you'd like to see in a First Person POV video? Other specific things I should cover?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Thanks for taking the request.
More things in First person? How to not get carried away with observations and inner monologue and keep the narrative "in the moment" would be fine too since inner monologue can be extensive at times.
I tend to always write in "deep pov" I didn't know what it was called, I thought it was just a 3rd pov, but that I was writing it weird. I can't help but do it. The issue I have, it seems to make scenes take longer than I like, and is a real big cat-and-mouse game of trimming everything down.
I know what you mean. Going moment-by-moment and exploring the different emotions/sensations can lead to a bloated word count if you're not careful.
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. The two main characters both toggle between devoted spouse and mortal enemy.
Deep point of view book is Cry Wolf.
Haven’t read it. I’ll have to check it out
Which author?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Patricia Briggs
There is also The Help by Kathryn Stocket for those who are tired of werewolves. Lol.
@@thakiusmuckfeather1103 Thanks!
Simone Leigh Buying the Virgin
I'll have to look that one up--thanks!
Which books have deep pov? I've never heard of it before youtube writing videos.
Game of thrones
just write a descriptive essay, ez
"Essay" might now be the best word for it, but description is key
From what I remember, Robin Hobb used a lot of POV in her books about the Bastard and the Fool
I need to check those out
Has Artificial Intelligence stolen your writing?
Read his books. They are awesome.
Thank you! Which was your favorite?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Very tough decision since they are so different. I would say Entry Wounds though. You really went all in and didn't shy away from the darker aspects ( Esp with the horrors of addiction).
@@kbill4478 Awesome, glad you enjoyed them both! Please consider leaving brief (1-2 sentence) Amazon reviews when you get a chance. Reviews help a TON.
Thank you so much for checking them out