I started a story that is a mix of 1st and 2nd person. There are two main characters the story is mostly told through the eyes of one of them which uses 1st person, but when it's talking about the second character it uses 2nd person.
'If On A Winter's Night A Traveller' is such a beautiful book written in second person. I picked it up just cause the title intrigued me, and I'm so glad I did. The author pretty much nailed the second person pov.
That one is strange even by Calvino standards. Calvino reminds me of Jorge Borges... you don't read him for the plot or characters, but to bathe in the surrealism.
I have a series with multiple POVs, usually told in a middle distance Third Person. But this story includes flashbacks and Visions (epic fantasy), which I use to dip into First or even Second Person for more intimacy. It also helps the reader identify scenes that are outside the main timeline. I was afraid readers might find that weird, but apparently not, as long as it’s consistent in the book. Some readers don’t consciously notice it; others catch it.
A bit of variation like that, and presenting things as you think they're best presented, sounds like a great approach to me. If readers are responding well to it, that's a good sign too. The rules are only useful until they're not!
I really loved that book and I wasn't expecting it to be my cup of tea (Hayley was right to recommend it as always!). Second person is definitely fun for short fiction, something different without the pressure of having to maintain it for ages. It's a nightmare to edit a second person novel...
@@KierenWestwoodWriting I've only read one novel entirely in 2nd person which was Open Water and I didn't think it worked entirely. I read another which was partly in 2nd person (Notes on an Execution) and that worked much better I thought.
LOVE your channel Keiren. I'm learning so much. Almost finished with my novel. What about mixing Third person and First person? I have parts where she's writing in her travel diary. Inner monologues in part. It seems to work and give it an interesting layer.
Hi, Very informative vid again, thanks. How do you write dialogue between different characters and switch scenes, using third person POV and an all knowing narrator?
This seems like a nice channel I often don’t like writing channels because they often stink of failure and overcompensation. Maybe what I don’t like is it’s people who talk about writing even though they they don’t even 100% believe that they are in fact a writer? Anyways so far you have 100% tricked me that you 100% believe that you are 100% of a writer so I definitely have something to learn from you.
Thanks, I appreciate that. Authenticity is something I struggle with honestly, I often think 'who am I to tell anyone anything about writing?' but I think that's a healthy way to approach it. I've said elsewhere in a video, but to me if you write, you're a writer. I don't think you have to wait for outside validation, it's something you decide for yourself. The key thing for me is that I started this channel not because I thought I could teach everyone something because I'm unique and special (I don't think that) but because I think all writers can offer something to others by sharing their experience. I'm really careful to qualify my 'advice' for want of a better word, by saying 'this is just my opinion' or 'this works for me, so perhaps try it.' I've always like helping people with their writing and starting this channel was an idea that scared me, that's mainly why I did it! Apologies for the long reply, appreciate you stopping in.
Same concept applies really - If you can see the character in front of you, that's 3rd person. If you can see just their hands, that's probably first person!
I looooove writing in first person and making the voice strong! Have also done close 3rd but I do think first is easier for me if I want to dig deeply into their emotions. I don’t know if I really have a preference - it definitely depends on what the book calls for!
Nicole Wilbur It definitely does ☺️ I just don’t think personally I have the ability to make first person as interesting to read as I’d need to. I corner myself and just end up starting all my sentences with ‘I’ 😂
I don’t write horror but I do read a bit, I’d say third person might be easier there because of the amount of description you may need. Description in first person is fine of course, but it’s sometimes hard to make it feel natural that way. Third person eliminates that difficulty in my opinion. For a thriller, if it’s a character driven one, first person could work really well, if it’s multiple characters or more plot-driven I’d say third again. There are no hard and fast rules though, if you try a certain POV and find it easy and fun to write in, go for that. And absolutely, switch between if you want. I’m a fan of that variation when I’m reading and it’s good to be able to work in differing POVs.
I think that the second person pov is mainly used in fanfics. I have used it a lot, but first pov is one of my favorites it makes me feel the emotions of the character and see through their eyes, while third pov is a little hard to write beceae there re a lot of details
Ablutions by Patrick Dewitt is one of the only books I remember reading in second person and it worked really well in that book. I don’t think it’s something I would ever try for full length novel.
J Pat I haven’t come across that one but I’ll look it up, thanks 😊 Yeah I’d say I learned a lot and I kind of enjoyed writing second person, but I wouldn’t do it again, certainly not for a full novel anyway.
Currently writing 3rd person POV. Any suggestion or advice? Even if you prefer it or not. I want to know do people prefer 3rd person Pov and what they want in it.
I think it's split both in terms of what works and what people prefer. The approach I go with is to think about what the story needs. What do you want to highlight? Do you want more or less distance. Try to follow the story, combined with what feels better to write. That's far more likely to work out in the long run. Don't worry though, it takes a lot of editing, but it's possible to change a whole novel POV if you find it really doesn't work later.
No one: Absolutely no one: Not a soul: Kieren Westwood: EMILY ST. JOHN MANDEL 😜😂 I'LL READ STATION ELEVEN, OKAY?? I've written in 1st and 3rd before and kind of waffle between what I like best. Sometimes it seems obvious which perspective a particular book should be written from and other times I can't seem to pick. I have tried writing a scene in one POV and then editing it into another POV just to see which one reads more naturally and sometimes that helps.
Meredith Phillips Writes OMG ROASTED 😂😂😂 you’re totally right it’s like every video I mention her 🤣 I think I have a problem! I’ve done the drafting and redrafting thing myself as well and it’s made a difference for sure. Now I’ve kind of settled in third so I don’t have to write emotions white as directly because I’m crap at that 😂
Im doing a story for the first time ever and its first person, but I keep saying stuff like “i think, i said, I always, i never” basically i start every sentence with the letter “i” is that a bad thing? And how can i go about it a different way
There's always going to be an element of that in first person, but the danger is that it can get a bit repetitive, yes. This tends to crop up mostly on sentences openings and can be noticeably there. The key is to establish a good sense of narrative voice. It should be like your character is talking, if you were telling the story that they're telling, how would you do it? Not everything has to be directly framed through the characters experience in that way. You can speak generally about things as well for example: 'I saw there was a big red door' could changed to 'The door was huge and red'.
What would be the POV in a story from the main character's perspective but without telling everything she knows to the reader until the end? I don't want to use the 1st person as I definitely don't want to give away too much from her thoughts. I want a lot of it to be a mystery and something that reader is curious about. So definitely third, but is it then third limited? It resonates the most with me and the story, as I want the readers to still feel close to the MC and still be able to get some of her thoughts. But I'm not sure if I can write something from the third person limited and don't give away everything from my main character.
I'd say third person limited it probably the way to go, yeah. You can still keep the reader close to the character, but just not reveal everything. Perhaps you could even get close to the secrets but have the character purposefully avoid thinking about it, so the reader knows there's something, but they don't know the facts.
Aaron Z It’s not something I would use personally and I know it can be a bit divisive but I don’t mind reading it. It tends to make quite an immersive story I think. It feels way more contemporary than some POVs and maybe that’s why some people aren’t a massive fan. What’s your thoughts on it?
@@KierenWestwoodWriting The first time I ran into 1st present was in a writing group (over 20 years ago) and I thought "wow, this person doesn't know the basics of writing fiction". Later on I was writing some short erotica and I experimented with 1st present because it's so immediate and intense. (Third person sex scenes seem too distant and clinical to me, and writing them in standard 1st past just sounds like TMI bragging. Like every story should start with "Dear Penthouse..."). After I got used to it, 1st present felt so easy and natural I used it in my non-erotic fiction as well. Recently I finished a whole SF novel in 1st present and I'm a little nervous that it will make it harder to sell. I asked my beta readers if it was off-putting. One of them said no and the other said he hadn't even noticed, actually. Which is funny because this guy gave me tons of thoughtful feedback on plot, pacing and character... but after 100,000 words he hadn't noticed what tense the novel was written in...
I mean that might just mean he was really immersed and not thinking about the mechanics of the writing. I’d consider that a good sign for sure. I wouldn’t dismiss a story for it, personally. I don’t know for sure if it would hurt your chances of selling it but I’d really like to think it wouldn’t 🤔
It's totally doable, I think you'd just have to make sure that descriptive language is written in your characters voice. I think you'd want it to sound as though they're describing it, as opposed to a more general sounding, more neutral narration. If you can pair your character's narrative voice with that descriptive language you want, you're there.
THE SLIDES ALL SAY 'FIRST PERSON' BUT IT SHOULD BE FIRST, SECOND, THIRD. Did a great job editing this, clearly....
I'm mixing 1st and 3rd person limited. It's going well!
As soon as I studied the idea for my novel, I knew exactly what perspective I was going to write in. First person, of course!
I started a story that is a mix of 1st and 2nd person. There are two main characters the story is mostly told through the eyes of one of them which uses 1st person, but when it's talking about the second character it uses 2nd person.
'If On A Winter's Night A Traveller' is such a beautiful book written in second person. I picked it up just cause the title intrigued me, and I'm so glad I did. The author pretty much nailed the second person pov.
That one is strange even by Calvino standards. Calvino reminds me of Jorge Borges... you don't read him for the plot or characters, but to bathe in the surrealism.
@@nehukybis Yes, you put it perfectly. Reading books like these (Lovecraft is another one) gives me trippy, vivid, hd dreams, and I live for it.
Ohh I’ve heard such good things about it but never got around to reading that! I definitely should ☺️
My favorite Calvino book was Invisible Cities. It doesn't have a plot as such, it's more like a Frommer's guide for an alternate plane of existence.
@@nehukybis Oh, haven't gotten round to reading that one yet, but I will, I promise...
(My tbr list is giving me looks rn T•T)
My favorite novel told in 2d person was the Night Circus 🎪! I felt like a spectator watching wonderful performances on a magical stage.
Thank you 🙏🏻
I've got a soft spot for 1st but I've also combined the two where different chapters from other POV are in third.
I want to learn to do that. I think it breaks things up nicely for a reader. I like reading that myself! :)
I have a series with multiple POVs, usually told in a middle distance Third Person. But this story includes flashbacks and Visions (epic fantasy), which I use to dip into First or even Second Person for more intimacy. It also helps the reader identify scenes that are outside the main timeline. I was afraid readers might find that weird, but apparently not, as long as it’s consistent in the book. Some readers don’t consciously notice it; others catch it.
A bit of variation like that, and presenting things as you think they're best presented, sounds like a great approach to me.
If readers are responding well to it, that's a good sign too. The rules are only useful until they're not!
I write A LOT in second person. It's probably my favourite. Much easier in short fiction. And The Book Thief is most definitely a fabulous book!
I really loved that book and I wasn't expecting it to be my cup of tea (Hayley was right to recommend it as always!). Second person is definitely fun for short fiction, something different without the pressure of having to maintain it for ages. It's a nightmare to edit a second person novel...
@@KierenWestwoodWriting I've only read one novel entirely in 2nd person which was Open Water and I didn't think it worked entirely. I read another which was partly in 2nd person (Notes on an Execution) and that worked much better I thought.
I would like to write one character in first person and the other characters in third person
Thanks for your great tips, KW.
Thank you my friend :)
Helpful as always!
ZachSmacks7 Thanks! That’s always the aim for me ☺️
I used second person extensively when writing reader x character fanfics back in highschool to great success on Wattpad
I'm writing in first person since I tend to go ham with the purple in 3rd person.
LOVE your channel Keiren. I'm learning so much. Almost finished with my novel. What about mixing Third person and First person? I have parts where she's writing in her travel diary. Inner monologues in part. It seems to work and give it an interesting layer.
Thank you! I love mixing it up, I think it's fun to write and fun to read. Alternating helps keep things a bit more exciting in my opinion 🙂
Great tips, Thanks!
Thank you :) Thanks so much for watching!
Hi, Very informative vid again, thanks. How do you write dialogue between different characters and switch scenes, using third person POV and an all knowing narrator?
This seems like a nice channel I often don’t like writing channels because they often stink of failure and overcompensation. Maybe what I don’t like is it’s people who talk about writing even though they they don’t even 100% believe that they are in fact a writer? Anyways so far you have 100% tricked me that you 100% believe that you are 100% of a writer so I definitely have something to learn from you.
Thanks, I appreciate that. Authenticity is something I struggle with honestly, I often think 'who am I to tell anyone anything about writing?' but I think that's a healthy way to approach it. I've said elsewhere in a video, but to me if you write, you're a writer. I don't think you have to wait for outside validation, it's something you decide for yourself.
The key thing for me is that I started this channel not because I thought I could teach everyone something because I'm unique and special (I don't think that) but because I think all writers can offer something to others by sharing their experience. I'm really careful to qualify my 'advice' for want of a better word, by saying 'this is just my opinion' or 'this works for me, so perhaps try it.'
I've always like helping people with their writing and starting this channel was an idea that scared me, that's mainly why I did it!
Apologies for the long reply, appreciate you stopping in.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting No that’s fine thank you for the comment and thank you for the content. I’ll be sure to watch!
Thank you so much this is really helpful
Thanks so much for watching ☺️
I came across this video in order to grasp what perspective video games are in.
Same concept applies really - If you can see the character in front of you, that's 3rd person. If you can see just their hands, that's probably first person!
I looooove writing in first person and making the voice strong! Have also done close 3rd but I do think first is easier for me if I want to dig deeply into their emotions. I don’t know if I really have a preference - it definitely depends on what the book calls for!
Nicole Wilbur It definitely does ☺️ I just don’t think personally I have the ability to make first person as interesting to read as I’d need to. I corner myself and just end up starting all my sentences with ‘I’ 😂
@@KierenWestwoodWriting haha that's definitely a big challenge with it! I...I...I... I consider that an editing problem :)
@@NicoleWilbur For sure. It sneaks in there before you can stop it :)
What’s the best for writing horror or thriller? And can you switch between points of views?
I don’t write horror but I do read a bit, I’d say third person might be easier there because of the amount of description you may need. Description in first person is fine of course, but it’s sometimes hard to make it feel natural that way. Third person eliminates that difficulty in my opinion.
For a thriller, if it’s a character driven one, first person could work really well, if it’s multiple characters or more plot-driven I’d say third again.
There are no hard and fast rules though, if you try a certain POV and find it easy and fun to write in, go for that.
And absolutely, switch between if you want. I’m a fan of that variation when I’m reading and it’s good to be able to work in differing POVs.
I think that the second person pov is mainly used in fanfics. I have used it a lot, but first pov is one of my favorites it makes me feel the emotions of the character and see through their eyes, while third pov is a little hard to write beceae there re a lot of details
what's the difference between a Point-of-view shot, first-person (video games) and first-person shooter?
Would it be weird to write in 3rd person but have a few chapters in 1st?🧐
No I don’t think so, especially if you pick the chapters that are first person for a reason if you can.
Ablutions by Patrick Dewitt is one of the only books I remember reading in second person and it worked really well in that book. I don’t think it’s something I would ever try for full length novel.
J Pat I haven’t come across that one but I’ll look it up, thanks 😊 Yeah I’d say I learned a lot and I kind of enjoyed writing second person, but I wouldn’t do it again, certainly not for a full novel anyway.
How could 3rd person translate to film/video format?
I desire to write from a 1st person pov but im struggling so bad with being discriptive
Currently writing 3rd person POV. Any suggestion or advice? Even if you prefer it or not. I want to know do people prefer 3rd person Pov and what they want in it.
I think it's split both in terms of what works and what people prefer.
The approach I go with is to think about what the story needs. What do you want to highlight? Do you want more or less distance. Try to follow the story, combined with what feels better to write. That's far more likely to work out in the long run. Don't worry though, it takes a lot of editing, but it's possible to change a whole novel POV if you find it really doesn't work later.
Thank you
Love the video! The slides for each point-of-view say "1st Person." Are you able to fix that?
How did I not see that in editing! :( Unfortunately can't fix it, but I'll add a pinned comment in case it's confusing. Thank you!
No one:
Absolutely no one:
Not a soul:
Kieren Westwood: EMILY ST. JOHN MANDEL
😜😂 I'LL READ STATION ELEVEN, OKAY??
I've written in 1st and 3rd before and kind of waffle between what I like best. Sometimes it seems obvious which perspective a particular book should be written from and other times I can't seem to pick. I have tried writing a scene in one POV and then editing it into another POV just to see which one reads more naturally and sometimes that helps.
Meredith Phillips Writes OMG ROASTED 😂😂😂 you’re totally right it’s like every video I mention her 🤣 I think I have a problem!
I’ve done the drafting and redrafting thing myself as well and it’s made a difference for sure. Now I’ve kind of settled in third so I don’t have to write emotions white as directly because I’m crap at that 😂
Meredith Phillips Writes I’m still giggling at this comment btw 😂
HAHAHA hey, I do the exact same thing in my videos, except with Victoria Schwab or Lawrence of Arabia, so... 😂
Meredith Phillips Writes I have noticed the Lawrence or Arabia hype on your channel 😂 but I mean it’s a classic for a reason!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting right? I should just make a separate channel for my Lawrence fandom LOL
Im doing a story for the first time ever and its first person, but I keep saying stuff like “i think, i said, I always, i never” basically i start every sentence with the letter “i” is that a bad thing? And how can i go about it a different way
There's always going to be an element of that in first person, but the danger is that it can get a bit repetitive, yes. This tends to crop up mostly on sentences openings and can be noticeably there.
The key is to establish a good sense of narrative voice. It should be like your character is talking, if you were telling the story that they're telling, how would you do it? Not everything has to be directly framed through the characters experience in that way. You can speak generally about things as well for example:
'I saw there was a big red door' could changed to 'The door was huge and red'.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting that actually makes sense, thanks
What would be the POV in a story from the main character's perspective but without telling everything she knows to the reader until the end? I don't want to use the 1st person as I definitely don't want to give away too much from her thoughts. I want a lot of it to be a mystery and something that reader is curious about. So definitely third, but is it then third limited? It resonates the most with me and the story, as I want the readers to still feel close to the MC and still be able to get some of her thoughts. But I'm not sure if I can write something from the third person limited and don't give away everything from my main character.
I'd say third person limited it probably the way to go, yeah. You can still keep the reader close to the character, but just not reveal everything.
Perhaps you could even get close to the secrets but have the character purposefully avoid thinking about it, so the reader knows there's something, but they don't know the facts.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting Brilliant. Thank you so much for your response!
Writing in second person is very hard, no wonder it almost disappeared
How do you feel about first person present?
Aaron Z It’s not something I would use personally and I know it can be a bit divisive but I don’t mind reading it. It tends to make quite an immersive story I think. It feels way more contemporary than some POVs and maybe that’s why some people aren’t a massive fan. What’s your thoughts on it?
@@KierenWestwoodWriting The first time I ran into 1st present was in a writing group (over 20 years ago) and I thought "wow, this person doesn't know the basics of writing fiction".
Later on I was writing some short erotica and I experimented with 1st present because it's so immediate and intense. (Third person sex scenes seem too distant and clinical to me, and writing them in standard 1st past just sounds like TMI bragging. Like every story should start with "Dear Penthouse...").
After I got used to it, 1st present felt so easy and natural I used it in my non-erotic fiction as well. Recently I finished a whole SF novel in 1st present and I'm a little nervous that it will make it harder to sell.
I asked my beta readers if it was off-putting. One of them said no and the other said he hadn't even noticed, actually. Which is funny because this guy gave me tons of thoughtful feedback on plot, pacing and character... but after 100,000 words he hadn't noticed what tense the novel was written in...
I mean that might just mean he was really immersed and not thinking about the mechanics of the writing. I’d consider that a good sign for sure. I wouldn’t dismiss a story for it, personally. I don’t know for sure if it would hurt your chances of selling it but I’d really like to think it wouldn’t 🤔
First person : Sherlock Holmes stories mostly.
Second person: A theoretical book like Operating system.
Third person: Hercule Poirot Death on the Nile
I prefer first person.
I’m writing a book in 1st Person but I also want to use the descriptive language offered by Third Person, any advice?
It's totally doable, I think you'd just have to make sure that descriptive language is written in your characters voice. I think you'd want it to sound as though they're describing it, as opposed to a more general sounding, more neutral narration. If you can pair your character's narrative voice with that descriptive language you want, you're there.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting yeah, that sounds good, thank you very much.