The BIGGEST RETCON In Dragon Ball Super
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- What is The BIGGEST RETCON In Dragon Ball Super? @LSMMIKE talks about that in this video featuring the Dragon Ball Anime and Manga.
The BIGGEST RETCON In Dragon Ball Z: • The BIGGEST RETCON In ...
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Marron went from a toddler in DBZ, to a baby in DB super. Which is weird, because she should be around 10 during the tournament of power.
It was said that the end of Z is actually the end of super and that's the reason for all the characters being aged differently and uub never appearing or being mentioned at least by name seems like we are getting closer as pan is now older and goten and trunks are teens as seen in Superhero
u do know that super is the time in between them beating buu and goku flying off with uub at the world tournament right, not after goku flies off
@Mar-wg8yy Marron is younger in Super than she is in the Buu saga. The Buu saga happens before Super. Marron is 13 during end of Z. If the earth Dragon Balls only work once a year, then Marron has to be 10 during the tournament of power, and she looks like a baby.
@@Mar-wg8yy 🤦🏾♂️
@@ItsMeBarnabyThe TOP happens 3 years after BOG that's why he said 10
I wonder why they didn't just write super after the 10 years of peace and add uub into the story
Because they needed to keep Goku in the orange gi, probably
My point exactly
They didn’t feel like aging goten an trunks my opinion
Money. They targeted younger viewers.
@@alexzero3736 yea but that doesn't explain why they try to fit it in like that they coulda still wrote it after plus uub is a kid perfect to market to kids...merch action figures it woulda made sense to write it after and add him I thought they might have came up wit idea of the Beerus and the God hierarchy and wanted go that way and give the older story a backseat but that doesn't even make sense to me fully cause why not still just write it after so it flows idk they always seem to make weird random decisions
This is why GT made the smarter choice by beginning after Z's ending.
Agreed.
I honestly don’t get why didn’t they just continue forward they could’ve done what they doing now but after Z
Agreed. I wasn't a huge fan of GT but at least they did that right
The thing that doesn't make sense in gt is vegeta and goku not going beyond ssj3 (vegeta also achieving it). During the timeskip after cell goku and vegeta both reach ssj2 and goku went beyond that, I would think that even in a peaceful world they'll both still be training, vegeta should have achieved ssj3 and both should have reached a higher level even if goku was training uub
@@bellamylawx9479 yea I get his character grew to be a family man but they made the gap of power and fear so big for no reason other than to meat ride goku only
"10 years of peace"
Lmao... Super is built on retcons...
Just like Z is, these kids amused at discovering Toriyama has been winging it all along are funny
@@shadowmaverick15 Of course he was. Tons writers do. They just make efforts to hide it. We call this "storytelling"...
@@AndrewAce. So why are people preteding this is new? Huh thats my whole point and yeah some authors do , Toriyama not so much ,i fail to see how your argument is relevant when we all know well that Toriyama retconned stuff all the time since Z
@@shadowmaverick15 What "argument" are you looking for, exactly? There's no hidden meaning here. Did you expect me to say that Toriyama has always been an impeccable master of writing, and then all of a sudden he stopped being one when Super came out?
The problems with Super go MUCH deeper than just a few stupid retcons, dude...
@@AndrewAce. Way to miss the point...
And never said Super was flawless but people pretending here Z didnt have huge retcons is just dishonest
A good example is one used in the video agaisnt Super, yes Kid Buu is irrelevant after all the events that happened in Super but so was he at the end of Z, 10 years passed are we suppossed to pretend that Goku and Vegeta sit in their ass for 10 years and are still at a level where Kid Buu would be relevant? This despite Bulma complaining they never see Goku because he is always training, so which is it then ? It doesnt add up , by that point they should have been way above Kid Buu even Super Buu and yet nobody says anything because Z is " perfect"
It says something about how unpopular this ending is that this is one of the least complained about parts of Super. I think Uub would have been embraced more if Goku visited his friends more than once every 5 years and if he was like "Yeah I'm training him but I have instant transmission so I'll visit often."
Toriyama in interviews seemed to have such a fixation on not wanting Goku to look like a hero and I just think he sometimes went too far with that.
He was already flawed enough as a character throughout the original story but in EoZ and Super its like he every now and then wrote/outlined these over the top moments where Goku comes across way too inconsiderate and selfish just to drive the point home if we didnt get it perhaps?
But then ironically he made Minus Bardock and Gokus origin story in Broly to be much more similar to Superman compared to the way we saw in specials/movies and other Toei materials & also the U6 saiyans were designed to be as non-threatening and docile as possible. But having Goku remain a nuanced character who doesnt *exklusively* care about fighting but also at least takes somewhat into consideration how his family would feel is bad because if you care about your family then you're too much like Superman? Idk Toriyama seems to have a bit of a contrarian streak about him if you read his interviews or even look into his other non-DB works
@Lebanese Edgyist Such a perfect commentary and so true!!! He needs to finally be secure with heroic Goku that we have, who is a different type of hero but a hero nonetheless. Decades of material has already been published and imprinted on the hearts of fans, so just go with it!
@@Breaker242 With Toriyama, it felt like he wrote Goku to be that stupid in Super in direct response not only to how the west kept making him be like Superman-clone in personality, but also Toei making him dark and gritty in GT with SSJ4 (personality, NOT design).
After a while, he had enough of how others kept misinterpreting his material, so he made a new series to give them a fresh _hard_ reminder.
The first time he made Dragon Ball, Toriyama probably thought he made it *abundantly* obvious who Goku is, but that didn't work. So now he went off the opposite end to "balance" it out.
Remember how mid 2000s it was actually the cool thing to hate on Dragon Ball? Oh man, the Naruto fans sure tried to make it look like shit, though soon after they went to pick a fight with other franchises too anyway 🤪. So many things that would meme/stereotype like fights just becoming Kamehameha light shows, he wanted to remind others what the soul of Dragon Ball was about... even if the old age dementia made him forget a lot of things.
You have to admit, in 2016? Everyone was *hyped* for Super in the Tournament of Power. A lot of you hate it now, but back then it was nice to be on the same page with others about liking Dragon Ball again.
@@shiningarmour6805 people were hyped about tournament of power cuz we thought we were gonna see some cool stuff. instead we got like 40 episodes of boring fights, 3 good ones, and an ending that undid everything. super was p much hated every week it came out.
@@Breaker242 Yeah I think it’s fair to say that Dragon Ball evolved to a point where I don’t think Toriyama was qualified to write it anymore because he became too obsessed with making the audience see the characters the way he sees them instead of allowing people to have their own perspectives and interpretations based on the portrayal he initially created.
Its also a lot hole if Bulma made herself younger in Super but complains about being old in the EOZ. Its a direct contradiction.
Maybe dr Hedo will mess up the cosmetic surgery and that’s why she looks older
Funny enough, Future Bulma looked old when Goku Black attacked 🤔
@@That_One_User_314 don't events of Goku Black mean that all original characters are dead? And what we see in DBS is actually one more parallel timeline?
@@That_One_User_314 well there’s no dragon balls in that timeline plus it’s like 30+ years since the Androids attacked. Even if you want to say Bulma would’ve made something to make herself look younger I doubt that would be a priority in a dystopia.
Maybe we will get an arc between Super Hero and EoZ which clarifies the retcons
It's weird how they didn't just have Super take place after that 10 years of peace. They could have done a lot of fun stuff with the slightly older characters and still done pretty much everything they have done in Super already, just would have happened later on.
He probably wanted the ending of Goku traveling with Uub remain the same.
They could've avoided all of this by simply stating that Super takes place in a branching timeline.
@@dominiquerobinson8888 way mosr fans hated that ending even gt haters say gt ending is better then z ending
@@inkchariot6147 it does. The end of Z is the end of the timeline we know of. GT is an alternate timeline and Super is an alternate timeline. Blame Cell and Future Trunks. - This is my head cannon
@@trelvynphillips6978 super is utter 💩
Super just shows how close gt was in following what z did. Yet super fans act like super was closer.
Bro, real talk, when GT ended, I *cried* because it felt like actual closure. I may have not liked the show, but it _felt_ like a conclusion during the last few episodes.
When Super ended, I had this feeling of "Huh, that's it?"
I feel like that's quite telling on the emotional value of Super.
GT felt like it was following Z like you said. Super just feels like they said "how can we make Dragon Ball an endless adventure river?"
Super fans need to take their meds…
GT says that Android 19 has a soul and shows Cooler. Sit down.
@@tonymishima8657 back tingles = super saiyan is infinitely dumber
@@Dogan_TM That is specifically for Caulifla, because she's a gifted Saiyan.
the fact super has 3 canons just shows how it is canon in another timeline.
you think GT is canon?
@@ssb_enjoyer59 could be
@@ssb_enjoyer59 its canon to the Z anime
@@schemar17 Didn't toriyama say to think of gt and super as 2 different timeline some where beerus didnt wake up that being gt and super is the timeline where beerus did wake up and they learned of the gods and other universes.
@@deckzone3000 yes it is, it literally begins with goku and uub. The Z anime isnt canon either lol
This is why I've always been against setting things in between established events. It NEVER works. Something always gets screwes up, forgotten about, retconned or doesn't add up. It happened with Star Wars when in Episode III Anakin states
*my powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count*
To which Count Dooku replies
*Twice the pride, double the fall*
Clearly hinting that this is their 2nd confrontation and Anakin's chance to redeemed his previous humiliation. Yet the Clone Wars(set in between Episodes II and III) felt the need to not only have Anakin and Dooku fight like 6 times, but have Anakin clearly get the better of Dooku a few times. So now it makes no sense for Dooku to underestimate Anakin in Episode III and Anakin's line doesn't even hold anymore weight nor does it make sense. Idk why writers keep doing this.
My guess is that they retcon the ending of Z in the final pages of Super. It will play out mostly like it happened in Z, but it will correct some of the errors that happened because of Super.
So they probably gonna make a different version of The End of Z
Probably? Definitely and I don’t like it
@@karnage2948 why is that?
Yes
@@gerardorodriguez7500 not any valid reason, just nostalgia.
@@mups4016 what if Lord Beerus, Whis, Broly, Cheelai and Lemo appear?
Honestly, a lot of this could have been avoided if they just…made Super happen after this. It was open ended enough that you could continue it rather easily.
Quickest way to fix all this is to say time travel affects the entire timeline. Thus the contradictions all happened because of Trunks, Goku, and Vegeta's messing with time.
the good ending
@@animegematria I think it really never did because of all the retcons made
Future Trunks hit the timeline so hard he made Bardock a loving parent
I bet Gohan could be a lot stronger throughout time if he just got Audioable.
Part of the giant retcon ppl never seem to bring up is that in ep 30 of Super (yes, the clip show), goku tells vegeta all the stuff abt king yemma reincarnating buu into uub and how little he is. so now it makes no sense for vegeta to know nothing abt uub/be surprised by him at the end of Z when he sees him at the tournament
I think they’ll just buff Uub. Like they hinted at… giving him “god ki” will be more than enough to peak Goku/cast interest .
Still huge inconsistencies but for DB standards it’s somewhat acceptable .
That’s the main issue I find with super. It throws around power ups like candy more than Z did because at this point Goku and Vegeta should be untouchable by everyone except the GOD’s and angels but somehow there’s a bigger fish when there’s no logical reason in terms of the story and universe for that to be the case
Pique, not "peak."
@@BigTarb it's dragon ball so who cares about the story? it's all about the fights.
@@donnieconyers2829 Most if not all of the best fights in dragon ball have a great story alongside it especially in Dragon Ball and DBZ
@@donnieconyers2829 obviously not a real dragon ball fan then
Didn't Toriyama himself say that every piece of Dragon Ball media takes place in their own timeline?
The reason why it's not lining up (like a lot of the Z movies never did but I digress) is because the GT and Super timelines are not the same.
The Z movies are part of the GT timeline, hence why villains like Cooler, Wheelo etc all appear in GT. GT is indeed an entirely separate timeline.
@@dstr001 more like toei canon thus it includes everything toei has work upon thus including db, dbz movies.
As big DBS hater myself (like really hate, way more than how you dislike it lol) I really appreciate how you don't just go on hate rants but logically and calmly talk about what you personally disliked and what it's flaws are. And you do the same with the original manga too pointing out it's retcons and plot holes showing you aren't biased but just saying it as it is. Keep up the good work, hope TH-cam isn't stressing you out and you're having fun.
Thank you so much for your generosity and kind words. I appreciate it.
Why do you hate super so much?
@OMAR-vk9pi Because I don't get into "universes" or franchises. Everything is case by case and reviewed as individual products. The LoTR trilogy is my favorite work of fiction both books and movies but I don't like the shadow of mordor games or the hobbit movies. I like 4 star wars movies and dont care for the rest or any tv show, I liked the harry potter movies but couldn't care less about the new game or the new movies. I could keep going but you get it. I hate the notion of being a fan of an entire franchise so therefore you consume every piece of media from that universe, like Marvel fans who watch every single new movie and play all the games they release. It makes no sense, I like Infinity war and hate endgame. I like Winter Soldier but hate civil war. You should be a fan or not a fan of individual products not entire universes. Otherwise you are completely and utterly biased and cannot have a truly critical view of something. I am aware that I technically did not answer your question, I ranted for too long and my message got too big so im ending it here. I will actually talk about Super if you are not already bored from this comment.
Some fans of Super are the equivalent of crackheads. "Just appreciate that we getting something", "Why you hating on the Super prequel, atleast Goten and Trunks doing something" As long as its content, its good. No matter how ridiculous it is. As a fan I watch super to keep up with what's going on, but i can admit the many flaws it has. Plus there's an art in knowing when to end things.
@dominiquerobinson8888 basically what I said in my big comment, liking it simply because it is a part of the universe they are fans of. And I dont support that idea, it allows the corporate people to push out lower quality products because they know people will still eat it up regardless of how bad it is
"Toriyama didn't write about things he didnt create until almost 20 years later" w-wow....
missing the point. super feels shoehorned in because toriyama initially did not intend for anything notable to happen in the “10 years of peace” after buu died. so the basis for super is alread a plot hole that gets more ridiculous the more stories happen.
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 it's dragon ball so who cares anyway?
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 so what, do we just not make more dragonball or?
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 ; then Toriyama changed his mind and retconned it. So it's not shoehorned in as the "10 years of peace" no longer applies
@@rexviperfanExactly, which the manga didn't even specifically state there was 10 years of peace. It was a lot more open. The Z anime fucked up by saying that shit.
Technically speaking yo son goku and friends return already retconned that, even if the main villains weren't really a global threat. Technically they were due to being frieza level but still.
I actually just noticed something major . Bulma says, “We’d never see you if we didn’t drop in on you.” Goku responds, “That’s not true. I visited you 5 years ago.” So it’s technically not a statement of how long it’s been since they’ve seen each other but about how one sided their friendship is. So maybe there’s no retcon?
I never understand why people think uub is going to be incredibly weak to everybody else one end of z comes around. Like did everybody seriously forget or just choses not to remember when just a portion of his power, when he was a younger child no less was sufficient enough to give Goku enough energy to take out Moro?
that is a bull shit pot hoel he get has power form kdi buu and kdi buuw a ssj3 levle so how fuck did ubb get god level power that make no damn secne
Fr Dragon ball fans just have never watched or read the series
I think it's it's a combination of how Uub was handled in GT, and also how it's a bit inconceivable for Uub to enter as a main character and start taking W's. He's only human, he has no transformations, etc. Personally, I would love to see Goku train Uub to use Kaioken, the spirit bomb, Hakai and Ultra Instinct. Perhaps Uub will become a god of destruction. Personally, I always wished the humans & Piccolo would have used and perfected Kaioken such they can go 50x and beyond without the repercussions. Perhaps Uub can do this though.
This vid made me wonder how was DBZ cosmology viewed before super, I imagine the perception was that there are just a few timelines, plus toriyama saying movies (and possibly game's) exist in other dimensions, but with the introduction of 12 universes, Gods, and Zeno things are now even more confusing as you try to combine them all together
Interesting topic. How far are we into the 10 years between the buu saga and the end of z???
9 years currently after Super Hero movie. Pan is 3 years there, and in the end of Z she is 4.
Superhero was one year before end of Z.
4 years after Buu arc is Battle of gods, nearly a year later is Resurrection of F, months later is universe 6 arc- Tournament of power arc, few months later is the Dbs broly movie.
shortly after is the Moro arc, 2 months later Goku and vegeta finish their training to finish moro once and for all, 2 more months later is the Granolah arc, about 2 weeks is when Goku and vegeta arrive on Cereal to fight Granolah, 2 years later Goten and Trunks go to Highschool while Goku and vegeta are training on beerus planet after suffering defeat on Cereal.
3 months later is when DBS super hero takes place and Hedo is busted out of jail and Pan starts training with piccolo , 6 months later Piccolo forces Gohan back to action. So we’re about a year away from End of Z
@@astronyxo7947 also have to remember that zamasu used the super dragon balls in his plan so the beginning of the future trunks arc is at least 1 year after the U7 vs U6 tournament
also, the earth dragon balls were used to:
-ask shenron how to become a ssjg
-revive piccolo i believe after the RoF arc when he died
-used again in the U6 tournament arc to ask how to find the super dragon balls.
so that’s 2 years + 1 year for the time between U6 vs U7 arc and the Goku Black arc. so 3 year minimum plus however long it was until the TOP.
@@astronyxo7947 BOG happens about a year after buu in the anime.
Still think it was weird how Super introduced Burlma's sister. IMHO that was pretty wild. Bulma, a character since the beginning of Dragon Ball, apparently had a sister. And to this day, she has never appeared again. Goku mentioned Raditz, (vs. Gas) and even Vegeta mentioned Tarble (in the I guess canon Broly movie). But no other mentions of Bulma's sister.
technically she was introduced in jaco but yeah. the only other place tights appeared besides that 1 Super ep was in some random animated bumper for a convention. (also in the ToP arc there's a scene it's implied bulma's talking to her on the phone but we don't know if it was her)
From Day 1 ppl should have known the ending of Z was screwed. If not then for sure at SSG
The thing is imo the existence of SSG is alright issue is they make the ritual happen once bear with me with this right. You can keep the “god” forms but keep them confined to the ritual so it doesn’t make ssj irrelevant as they can’t just instantly go god forms but then again you can’t market that can you
Super Hero could end with her realizing that she doesn't need to make useless wishes to stay young, she is already a beautiful grown up woman
There is another timeline split here; one where Beerus wakes up early leading into super, and another where he doesnt leading into GT. Another massive plot hole is no one knowing who Uub is, especially Dende, Krillin and Vegeta since Vegeta was the one who brought Uub up in Super in a conversation with Krillin and Goku before the universe 6v7 tournament, and Dende literally keeping an eye on Uub since he was born.
I think when God Ki was introduced it should have been specified that the characters with it are not more powerful than anything we've seen before, they're just different. Maybe it has like a super effective advantage over regular ki that makes it necessary to learn, but that characters like Beerus aren't monstrously more powerful than Buu was. Not only would this tame back the power scaling significantly, but it would allow the human characters to compete on a playing field again by basically resetting the pieces. Maybe Krillen can't blow up universes with his regular Ki, but if he learns to channel God Ki then his own martial arts experience gives him a fighting chance against God Ki users.
them NOT giving the humans something like god ki is annoying me endlessly. they created a whole new path of power, and close off every route for the characters that need it the most to be relevant.
I’m so glad your uploading consistently again! I will stay tuned and keep liking 😊
Have you spoken about why Goku is hurt by bullets in Super and if he would've been in Z?
He literally wasn't in the first episode of the original Dragon Ball
A rock hurt him a lot while still in super saiyan...soooooo his durability is very inconsistent
@@everettjohnson9374 that was because he was asleep, that rock would have done absolutely nothing otherwise
@@everettjohnson9374 That wasn't a scene in the manga.
@@shane7051 He was a child who wasn't strong enough to blow up the planet at that point.
Edit: Plus a lot of those scenes were comic relief and not meant to be taken as serious. But how serious is a guy who screams like he's constipated and transforms from Banana-flavored to rocket popsicle supposed to be?
DBS would have worked a lot better if it was set after Z as they wouldn't have to retcon previous stuff. They also could have changed certain plots of super to fit the newer generation like Imagine in the T.O.P we saw Uub, teen trunks, teen Goten, Gohan, Piccolo, Goku, Vegeta, android 17 and android 18 and Frieza (If they revived Frieza.)
they need to utilize buu and his magic and absorption more he's my fav. and funny
Great video as allways. Love hearing you talk about dbz.
The fact that DBS exists is a retcon, another bad attempt to cater to modern audiences at the cost of ruining a franchise.
True but dbs is still awesome
Æ
Blame DB Evolution for that, Toriyama was so pissed at that movie that he didn't want it to be the last media related to Dragon Ball released
Hey at least its not the modern audiences that marvel are after
But DBS is worse non canon
Since Dragonball Super began, I always considered the end of DBZ to be the "cliff notes ending." I considered DBGT to be completely retconed after Dragonaball Super began. I thought of proof of the series going in a completely different direction was evident with the younger Pilaf gang instead of a younger Goku.
My personal head cannon is that what happened in the manga was a timeline in which Trunks didn’t return because of Goku Black so everything going on now is the consequence of that 😂. It makes me feel better
As far as Uub being unimpressive by Super standards... well, we've seen Buu's potential when he actually trains. Uub, as a reincarnation of Kid Buu, would have a lot of untapped potential as well (and probably wouldn't fall asleep when he was needed) .
Because In Super when characters that “never train” train one time, they are strong enough to kill Kid Buu with a fart. Master Roshi (super) would unironically clap Kid Buu. It’s so stupid.
Kid buu has god energy like saiyan super blue. This was hinted at during dragon ball super Moro arc. As original supreme Kia lose his god power. Most people assume most went with kid bun when he got reincarnated. As this weaken supreme Kia potential to stop Moro in this manga arc.
@@yungjeezy5232 They never said he Roshi only trained once. At least in the dub, Goku is surprised by Roshi and suspects he's been training in private. Roshi also comments on how his students inspired him to start training again. And even with all that training, his one standout episode focuses on him being good because he's clever and old and not pure strength. He intimidates one, contains another, and the last one he mostly exhausts and then uses all he has to push him out before his ability allows him to recover.
@@CassidyShadewing all those words just to say he didn’t just train once. It doesn’t matter. Even if Roshi’s “secret training” started at the beginning of DBZ, him catching up to god ki level (Top base Goku is leagues stronger than ssj god Goku from bog), let alone Tien is nutty.
Roshi may not be brute strength but dbz and even db established that speed and strength are relative to one’s power level. Roshi not only dodged Jiren at point blank, but he punched him… Jiren is insurmountably stronger than Buuhan and apparently so is Master Roshi.
They should’ve just started Super after the end of Z. It would’ve made the most logical sense instead of fitting it in during the 10 year gap.
Super should've been a one off with Battle of Gods.
At the same time, there'd be no Super Broly...Reality is often disappointing.
its like toriyama is afraid of going into GT territory for some reason?? like he is scared he will have to make ss4 canon cuz everybody
will be wanting it...
😆😁
we would have been in age 789
@@ssppeeaarr ssj4 has more creative thought put into it than any of the forms that have come out of super because all supers forms are is just pallets swaps
@@ssppeeaarr Yes. And when you watch the last two episodes of Z now, it’s just hard to believe that they have God forms and Ultra Instinct/Ego at that point lol. It could still fit into the story now however. But the five year crap with Bulma definitely needs to be retconned
"And the Dragonballs will always be there for them"
A few years later
DAN DAN kokoro hikarete ’ku!
Easiest explanation is that the end of Z (and even GT if you want it) happens in an alternate reality where Buu never stole Beerus's pudding.
When you think about it, all of Super arcs absence can be explained away with just that one difference of Beerus non sticking around.
No Beerus means no BoG arc or Champa arc, no Champa arc means no Zamasu arc (since the tournament wouldn't have been shown on GodTube) which also means no ToP arc (no idea of the Tournament and the absence of a second Zeno probably meant he never got the idea to erase the universes since in the future he never did it) which also means no Granolah arc and Broly movie (since Freeza is still dead).
This leaves out RoF, Moro and Superhero, but I think these can also be explained rather easily, like for instance Goku not being on Beerus's planet means he could sense Sorbet and Tagoma on Earth and stop them, or Moro's escape could be prevented somehow, or the new Red Ribbon army could be stopped before they recruit Hedo.
8:45 Yo BASED. This is exactly what I was saying when they introduced Uub in the Super manga and the people who replied to my comment, and there were a disappointingly large amount of them, were so delusional they actually tried to argue that Uub did, in fact, matter. Like, SSJ3 Goku kills him QUICK if Buu can’t regenerate. Uub being as strong as Buu is impressive since he doesn’t have to transform but he’s still only human and has an expiration date. What happens in 70 years when Uub dies? Are they going to reincarnate another top tier villain to replace him? And why is it purposed that somebody who couldn’t beat SSJ3 Goku would have any impact since Gohan has his boosted strength, far exceeding SSJ3 and and SSJ3 was ONE SHOTTED by Beerus, who then remarked at how he’s impressed by Goku’s unstable, unrefined SSJG form, which is supposed to pale in comparison to SSJ Blue, as shown by Goku running the gamut of Transformations against Jiren.
This is the problem when you write for fan boys and marketing.
I agree about the delusions of the fanbase. They are just saying anything to defend the mess Super has created at this point.
Why didn't they just make super after he trained uub
Because that takes thought
the worst retcon is that in the original EoZ vegeta was living peacefully with bulma trunks ans bra
now he has to worry about freeza again AND is back to square namek in the arms race against black freeza
There’s a lot to unpack here. So for starters you really need to dive back into the comments from toriyama himself during the revealing of the super anime and manga, why it takes place where it does and when. He didn’t want to go forward like GT but he felt it would be fun to tell the story of what happened in between that period of the 10 years. There are a few things that don’t line up but he has made an alternate ending to the original manga before, I’m sure they’ll have some odd tie into it as they’re approaching the end of the manga shortly. As for Uub you seemed to forget that in the Moro arc they included a lot of back story with the daikaio that buu absorbed which gave buu god ki, with Uub being the direct reincarnation of kid buu, he now has god ki within him. I found that to be a smart way to make his character some what be capable to match the newer levels of what the characters have reached. And the energy gathered from Uub during the end of the Moro arc was implied to me incredibly powerful.
that is ptloh hole i kid buu had god ki then goku and veegta wonted be able to sene him just like fireza kpeeing hs body in super made no damn sene way dos he keep has bdoy but not vegeta when fireza killed wya more then vgeta
@@ssjgotenks2009 kid buu as we knew him in Z was never mentioned to have god ki as it wasn’t even an established thing yet. Once super came around they started retconning things and adding what ever they could to explain away certain aspects.
The 5 years thing is the only major retcon. They’ll probably have to change that line but it’s not the end of the world. I think Goku would want to fight Uub. He’s the reincarnation of Buu. The reincarnation of Piccolo gave Goku one of the best fights he ever had after 3 years of training. Freeza trained for 4 months and was god level. Gohan with 0 training was the strongest person from earth at 4. I think he’d be interested in 10 year old Uub. Uub might be the only character with a high enough potential to fight Black Freeza. All in all I do find any retcon to the end of z annoying and i really didn’t want Super to effect it but it’s not too bad.
what about picolo syasing goku never fight any one after buu died witch super prof to be wrong so they have swtch that lame ubb is not gonig fight black fireza
@@ssjgotenks2009 I just read the last two chapters I don’t see that
Thing is... Dragonball as a franchise consists of a multitude of timelines outside whats acknowledged in the series. GT occurs in a separate continuity than Super, so even when Supers' timeline of events reaches Goku meeting Uub at the World Tournament, things won't unfold like they did in GT. It'd be impossible for that to be the case given the events of Super (though I wouldn't be surprised by a return of an even more powerful Omega Shenron).
While we're talking about timelines, I should also point out the existence of the DB Online/Xenoverse/Heroes timeline. Yes, those are all interconnected. The player characters who make up Xenoverve's Time Patrol come from Dragon Ball Online's timeline, a timeline where neither GT or Super occurs. Xenoverse's Conton City and the Supreme Kai of Time (Chronoa iirc) serve as a means to connect all the multitudes of timelines.
Another timeline worth noting is the timeline in which all the old movies took place. Obviously, classic Broly didn't show up during the Cell Saga in the original and shove Vegeta's face through a building, but in the movieverse he did... and then reappeared in two other movies afterward. In general, the movieverse has a very different power scaling that's inconsistent with the growth of the characters in Z and can only be explained by the progressive challenges presented in its own timeline.
Bottomline is that the events at the world tournament at the end of Z are naturally going to be off kilter due to the events of Super because they lead into the GT timeline. In other words, those events were depicted in a timeline where Super didn't happen. Yes, it's a retcon, but it's not one without an explanation. Bulma only started hoarding the dragonballs and wasting wishes on frivolous things like making herself look younger after the events of Resurrection F and she started doing that specifically to stop people like Frieza's goons from showing up and misusing them again. That event can't have happened in GT's timeline as GT obviously never had such a thing as a "super saiyan god" and because of that Golden Frieza would have been more than enough to wipe out the planet.
Super absolutely should have started right after the end of Z! That way there’d actually be suspense because we wouldn’t know if characters are going to live or not!
Considering how young Bulma looked in DBSHero, we can assume Dr. Hedo gave her something that aged her like a banana. He got his revenge on Capsule Corp in the end.
they could do a bigger retcon by changing DB Super title into Dragon ball Toyotaro
Super was a lot of fun. I just hope the next sagas they give the animators the time they need. Love the idea of vegeta, broly and goku training with gods. In super hero, vegeta finally appeared to be using his brain instead of searching for absolute power.
I'll play devils advocate for 1 point and it's Goku being excited about Uub. Keep in mind Uub has never been trained at least not properly and so his potential should be through the roof if his base power is around kid buu. Otherwise yeah can't exactly disagree with this, super is just a giant retcon with a couple of moments that are lore friendly but otherwise retcon after retcon.
but why be excited about that when gohan can just pull shit like beast form out of his ass and catch up instantly without ever training
Would be cool if after they're done with all this super garbo if they remade, not remastered, GT, making it fit in better with super, keeping mostly the same just making it better and minor changes to make it aline with super better, maybe have some cameos from super, make how goku gets turned to a kid different, replace all super saiyan 3 scenes with super saiyan God or blue, to make it make sense (wouldn't make sense if he was using 3 in fights he had back in the day if we know he has new forms by this point) and buff super saiyan 4, making it the true, final, strongest form, or hell even keep it going make a new kinda ultra instinct super saiyan 4 looking form if they wanna continue with dragon ball after what ever they have planned next
I hope they do more with Boo and Oob or give them a way to get their God Ki back they kinda squandered a good side story or something I would like to know more about the Kais that Boo absorbed and I have been wanting to see Oob since the end of Z and GT
@laughingstockmedia where is Harold? I loved catching all your videos with him. It’s been a few years since I heard his voice. If he has a channel let me know. By the way your awesome! Love your channel, super informative - you and a few other content creators are keeping the fandom together! Keep it up!!
Thanks for watching. Harold appears at the end of all of my videos.
Dragonball super creates many continuity errors with the end of Dragonball Z. That's its biggest problem. It tries to do too much during the 10 year timeskip.
This was THE END of dragon ball that’s why. Toriyama didn’t intend to make anything else after Goku flew off with Uub and money wasn’t a factor because he was already a millionaire long before he created dragon ball, so this was the end period. Super exists because he was forced to write, but in his eyes it doesn’t exist so it’s not canon end of story
In Dragon Ball Super heroes Bulma doesn’t age.
cuz she's been using the dragon balls to make her look younger. So she was already doing that even before she said it in the end of Z.
If Bulma’s parents don’t age why should she?
"Shenron" is closer to his name in japanese than "shenlong" is.
It's just that the Japanese don't pronounce "l". The name "Shen Long" is Chinese.
@@AdmiraHax well, it's not just that. But yeah. You're on the right track.
I like this. A DBZ fan that actually has logic. It isn't a surprise that Super is a retcon, nor is it confusing. Remember the series was suppose to end with Vegeta. What pushed it on were big dick sales. How are they gonna fit it; whatever way money decides. And with the still dislike for G.T., Ub may just get entirely rewritten.
Imo dragon ball ended with Z. Super really feels like a fan-fic to me. ESPECIALLY the manga
This is why I point out that there's a split in the continuity between everything. Everything kind of has its own. For example, the manga will follow the manga, anime follows anime, etc. But there's even a split within the anime in particular that people should just accept. There is no connection between the original Z and Super. No, we have 2 storylines. The classic version, and the modern one. The original classic story starts us off with Ball, then moves onto Z, and then finally, GT. The MODERN version starts with OG Ball, moves onto KAI, and then tells us the interquel of DBS. Because of the existence of KAI, anything and everything that happened in the original Z, stays within Z since KAI retconned Z as a whole. Any retcon that DBS does, ONLY affects KAI and itself. It's got zero impact on the original Z and GT since that storyline is done. It's completed. If they were to expand upon it, they'd need to make a new series directly stating that it's a sequel to GT. I kind of wish they would do this because I want more content....but I also don't want more content at the same time because I only believe they'd completely fuck it up.
I don't get how people consider Super canon any more than GT tbh.
I learned about all the end of Z stuff after I watched the whole anime. Lots of people still don't know
This is hypocritical because DBZ contradicts *itself* more than Super contradicts Z.
Because the creator of Dragon Ball, Akira Toriyama is actually supervising Super and says it's canon, where as dragon ball gt had nothing to do with Toriyama. This shouldnt have to be explained but dragon ball fans are fucking dumb
Ties to the original creator and published as a continuation of the manga. That's why.
@@TonyMishima92that's cap.
There's definitively a timeline divergence. The original manga is the "GT adjacent" timeline where the events lead up to DB GT and then to GT's ending, etc. The divergence then leads to DB super and all of its subsequent events.
I think it's more like a bottle episode arc where Goku wants to get back to basics by being "Sensei Goku" instead of "God Goku" and taking a person with power and training them from the beginning. Getting back to his roots by passing on knowledge like Roshi did with him.
That five-years comment makes _Battle of Gods_ alone almost plausible as a one-off exciting day in what was otherwise 10 years of peace. Sure, that means this would be Goku that had absorbed a portion of SSG into his base form, but maybe even that could have been just a lingering temporary buff that slowly faded in the following weeks and months. Goku would have tasted divine power, but if he never mastered it, he could still be excited for a rematch against Kid Buu's reincarnation.
It's not until we get into the sequel that is _Resurrection F_ and the entire follow up series that is DBS, that everything get blow out of proportion to the point where attempting to reconcile it all strains credulity.
Heck, even GT is plausibly compatible with _Battle of Gods_ alone, considering how the way Goku borrows power to reinforce his SS4 form is reminiscent of the SSG ritual, but one saiyan short of the number needed to complete it.
I hate how Super disregards the ending of the manga, among other things.
I long for the day that Super is considered as GT is. Non-canon. Cause we deserve an actual good continuation, preferably set after Z.
Super is confirmed to be an alternate universe that branches off of Z
I just pretend that Super happens in a different timeline
Same
Same with GT
Regardless, I still want to see Oob in a new dragon ball series
The retcons be crazy man.
After the movie I was wondering where the heck is Uub now, since Pan was born maybe he would be 5 or 6 by now (and I remember that in the beginning of Super they said that Uub was only a baby).
pan is 5 at end of z
end of z is 10 years after buu
super is a few months after buu
pan is 3 in dbs super hero
so uub would be about 8
That’s because toriyama was forced to let them continue a series he wants finished
I mean, it was Toriyama himself that wanted to continue it.
Just look at it as a split timeline in the Dragon ball multiverse. 😅
The original end of a will exist as we know it from the original print, right?
I actually quite like the retcon, they can’t do much worse than that ending for Z.
I was never much of a fan of the whole “everyone just split up and only talked every 5-10 years for the rest of their lives” thing. There were a bunch of small things I didn’t like about it, but that was my main gripe. It’s just depressing. I also really didn’t like how we never got to see uub before said ending, so it felt like he got shoehorned in and stole the spotlight for me. Like we knew he existed but I’d have felt much better if the ending was him going off for a spar with vegeta like the way the super anime stopped after the tournament of power or something; it would be a great send off.
“Oh, here’s a super cool character, now he’s goku’s student, and you will never see any of it” was also pretty depressing 😂
Dbz, Vegeta repeatedly caused every issue. He brought frieza to namek, he caused 17/18 to be released, caused perfect cell, caused buu to fully charge and hatch. Every time he got beat and either goku or gohan saved the day. Rinse and repeat over and over.
I just hope that Dragon Ball Super was all a fever dream of someone
Marron HAS A NOSE IN THE MANGA?!
To prevent Zeno from erasing everything, darkshortyx.
Maybe the alterations are because Trunks came back from the future, and messed up the timeline.
Didn't goku say that kid buu was his best fight? I find that hard to believe given everything that's happened in super. Or was that a dub only line. Great work btw man keep it up!
Maybe he meant it as most difficult? Cause tbh that fight compared to the fights in super, there wasn't a get out of jail free card and there wasn't really a way for them to win with their own abilities.
@FalconLazer I still feel like it's kinda not accurate. Goku had to undergo an ancient alien ritual to get SSG and still lost to beerus and he had no idea that beerus wouldn't blow up the planet.
He never beat zamasu and goku black. Even fusing with vegeta he couldn't do it. Then there's Broly.
Idk it's just hard for me to believe that kid buu was somehow a more difficult fight than all of them
@@gameinspection4999 I guess I may have miss spoke, he's the hardest one they fought without any last minute saves, and their own skill with a dire situation.
Beerus, yeah he was hard but in the end he didn't destroy anything and I think Goku could tell Beerus was just having fun.
Frieza, they basically one tapped him.
Universe 6, I mean it wasn't dire.
Goku Black, yeah he was hard and it'd debatable if Goku would consider it a dub, Vegito shredded him (manga) but he was immortal, but then Zeno just showed up and erased him. Also it was the future so it wasn't dire in the same way it would be to Goku if it was his timeline.
TOP and after, seems like Goku just always gets a more powerful UI form or fuses to win.
always was so in love with Videls short hair version 🥺 never met a girl with short hair that wasn't lesbian or identified as a boy.. . 😭 thanks for never let me find true love Toriyama
People go on about how GT is supposedly not canon. The truth is that GT was the original sequel to the DBZ anime (not the manga). Aside from some inconsistencies it stays mostly true to the ending of Z. Did it do it well? That's up for debate. But GT and Super are in my headcanon just two alternate timelines that branch off of Z.
Yeah I always assumed GT and Super took place in alternate timelines / parallel universes or something.
This video is a crystal example of complain about something in Super but pretend it never happened in Z and if it did make excuses for it, so are you telling me with a straight face that Kid Buu being relevant in Super doesnt work because all the events that happened in Super but it works in Z for reasons?
Let me explain the end of Z happens 10 years after the battle with Buu, yet Goku gets excited at the prospect of fighting his reincarnation despite the fact that both him and Vegeta should be way above Buu by that point( before you argue there were 10 years of peace let me remind you that even in those times the saiyans always train).
So are you telling me Vegeta and Goku sat on their ass for 10 years not gettinf stronger so Uub remains relevant to their power? And yet Bulma complains she never emsee Goku because he is always training, so which is it? In this thing alone Z doesnt make sense but nobody says a thing because how would you point a flaw in Z, meanwhile if Super did it suddenly it doesnt work
Yeah, that scene with Bulma and Vegeta visiting is the biggest problem with Super existing, they'll have to re-write it somehow or add to it, when they eventually get past the end of Z section.
Everything else can kinda/sorta work out, though it is indeed ridiculous that we've had villains like Zamasu and Moro show up after Buu...
though with that said, it was really awesome how they incorporated Uub in DBS - him having God Ki due to Kid Buu retaining it is a great idea and sets him up to have even greater potential. Think about it, Uub is as strong as Kid Buu, has God Ki... his potential is HUGE and it makes sense why Goku would be excited to meet, train and fight against him at the end of Z, considering he knew that Uub gave him the BIG serving of God Ki near the end of the Moro arc.
Still, it would've been so much better if The Future Trunks arc, Tournament of Power and everything afterwards happened after end of Z, would've made much more sense, but after GT Toei and Shueisha were afraid to go that route and they decided to play it safe instead, which ended up causing more problems narratively, unfortunately.
That's what we get when DB is a corporate product, made for selling toys. :(
But hey, I'll take it. I've always wanted new DB content and while Super has many flaws, it's brought many tears and smiles to the kid in me, who grew up with the original series and I am still excited for what the future holds!
also it's dragon ball so who cares? the story was always retarded.
Wish I had that attitude
the reason Uub would be a big deal in super, if he is as strong as Kid Buu without training, if he trained with godsimagine how strong he would be. frieza went from being namek level, to Tournament of power, SSB goku in 4 months. imagine if Uub trained with whis, goku, vegeta and broly with a base power level MILLIONS of times stronger than original frieza.
Hmm...
This only makes me assume that the Buu Saga is the biggest incident in space-time history more than any regular time travel.
I have a theory that could be plausible I guess? You know how in the manga of Super there was a time machine built in Universe 12 and stolen by Mangaverse Zamasu, right?
It could be one of the factors which might have created the mangaverse of Super in general.
But let me not withheld information any longer than I should: I believe the events of Kid Buu's defeat resulted in creating 2 split off timelines + 1 extended timeline.
These will be the 3:
1. Beerus and the higher Gods' existence are introduced to the Z-Fighters (even the reality itself) as well as God Ki but the Time Machine of U12 is never created to begin with. This is the Super Animeverse.
2. The U12 Time Machine is built but becomes stolen by Zamasu. This in-turn creates the Manga variant of Super alongside copies of Trunks' timelines that happened in DBZ.
3. Also a reality where the U12 time machine is never built but the difference being that the Oracle Fish never had that premonition or Beerus having that dream of the SSG. Hell or even the Gods of Destruction or 11 other universes existing in general. Thus the EOZ happens like normal...or even DBGT (although by accident).
It could be that the Dragon World just spontaneously creates shit for the sake of it...kinda like how a certain mangakas make things work.
Yeah as big as DB Super is for mindless fun it does not fit at all with the manga. This series is a direct contradiction even if it does some things that I do like.
Also another thing worth noting is that in DB Super Goku is asked in the TOP arc by Dende to train Uub when he meets him later which isn't really how this is supposed to work. Goku didn't decide to train him until he fought him in the manga.
Also it's completely impossible for Goku to have not seen Vegeta in 5 years they train on the same planet literally all of the time.
The Answer is Simple. Super isn't canon. At least not here. I agree to what some fans say, Super Manga, Super Anime, GT, Movie Universe and EoZ, are all separate timelines. I prefer Eoz as an ending, but I do love me my Cute grumpy cat boi, SSJ4, and Icarus.
This just low-key proved that gt is Canon and super is non canon some people don't like to admit it
The one thing I have to disagree with is the level of Kid Buu’s power. Simply put, we don’t know the depth of his power. The fight against Buu was never really a fight, it was Kid Buu toying with both the saiyans and causing chaos. They beat him with a last ditch effort of the most powerful spirit bomb that has been made up to that point in time. Really the most powerful spirit bomb if we’re disregarding GT’s Universal Spirit Bomb since it is not considered as part of the canon timeline. Yes, Buu couldn’t push it back like Jiren, but that’s a two fold argument. That Spirit Bomb didn’t have as nearly many sources to pull from though the overall level of those who did contribute were stronger. And the Spirit Bomb was stated to be able to be reflected by someone of pure heart which is why Gohan was able to reflect it in the saiyan saga. Now it’s hard to say in Jiren’s case in the absence of literally riding the flying Nimbus. However, I’d be willing to bet that he would count. What is certain though, is that Kid Buu definitely does not count. And despite that, Kid Buu still lifted the Spirit Bomb and held back its immense amount of energy until Goku was restored and added his own to it. If Kid Buu came back now and fought the Super Saiyan Blue form evenly in terms of strength, I would not be surprised. The main thing that would give Goku or Vegeta the edge if they were even is the fact that they both have better battle sense and given enough time to adjust to Buu’s chaotic battle style and mystical abilities would most likely gain the upper hand. However if Uub were to come into super with all the power of Buu and start training under one of the martial artists, he probably could become a considerable force in Universe 7. Of course, Goku would be the most likely candidate to train Uub as that’s what the show is set up for. However, I feel Piccolo would be the best master for someone like Uub even if he is vastly different from the version we got in GT. This is mainly due to the mystical nature to the Namekian’s abilities and the magical nature of Buu’s and by extension Uub’s abilities.
Bulma kept using the dragon balls to look young
the dragon ball z ending can still be canon
maybe in the last episode of super goku wakes up and everything what happend in dragon ball super was just a dream
like in super mario bros 2
Ok, so I'm gonna pull a pokemon theory out and say that after Goku and Vegeta fought the first time, Goku was actually put into a coma and everything that has happened since has just been a Goku dream...
Can you do a video about how strong Zamasu would have been if he took Gohan’s body instead of Goku’s?
I believe, and as the days go on continue to believe that dbs is the "noncannon" one
Let me explain
DB to DBZ to DBGT fits almost perfectly together narratively
The characters age and progress fluently and consistently, all series progress off of the last (DB goes into Z with goku getting a kid, Z goes into GT with Goku and Uub training)
The only thing one could point to in saying GT can't fit is Cooler being there but considering he just appears as a cameo and does nothing in the show it's very minor stuff
Super meanwhile takes place before the end of Z happens and adds/removes so much existing lore and ideas that the Z ending cannot happen without some deus ex machina "they forget everything that happened" type of deal
The only reason super would be more cannon than gt is because Toriyama worked on super and not gt, but if that's the only reason, it probably doesn't hold up all that well narratively
So I'm gonna keep on believing that Super is the non cannon one and that the true continuity is DB to Z to GT
If you believe that cannon only means that toriyama worked on it then fine, super is the cannon
But for me I believe that cannon is stuff that fits in perfectly with the original story and continues/adds to it in ways that don't take away from the original
In that sense, only GT fits that as it adds new content without destroying existing ideas
Super adds things that disrupts the original story so I can't see it as cannon
Same sentiments here 💯
This to be honest
Super could only logically exist in an alternative timeline taking place immediately after Buu.
Toriyama didn't write GT, but he was still involved in the production. He designed the main cast, gave the production team notes and advice.
They retconned kid Boo's power in DragonBall Super. Now Boo was reincarnated with the Good Kaioshin's God power, implying that kid Boo was essentially a god. It’s all stupid now.
well with all the time traveling shenanigans and such its possible like with trunks cell etc altering the main universe its something like that that got us super. i just watched your video about that before this so its fresh in my mind.
The only way I can see them somewhat fix it is if they do a soft reset by that I mean like a time travel thing for example we get a legit threat where the angels and gods are involved and some character gets a hold of whis staff and instead of turning back time just a little bit it turns it back 10 years and this fight continues and then they see time got set back and they just go around trying to stop the villains before they become a bigger threat. Something among those lines I know it’s obviously full of holes and needs more thinking but you get what I mean?
I do but it's w .e
I’m gonna start looking at super like a completely different timeline.isn’t there an extra time line out there from the future trunks saga ?