6:07 "For simplicity, oil is forced through external steel tubes" the main reason being to remove the need for a head gasket. If you notice at 6:15 there is also no block to head cooling water path. This results in a cooler head for more power as well as a more rigid block. If there is no gasket...it cannot fail. The 'Wills' firing ring is all thats needed. These engines would be more able to withstand the odd bit of detonation, far more than a conventional block anyway. Great vids!
@charade993 The liners are steel, it turns out, from "The 1000Bhp Grand Prix cars" which covers this engine. If you tried to drive one of these engines from cold, you'd destroy it, for your reason, but as it gets hot, the block expands and it tensions itself "correctly," because it is bolted to the fuel tank/chassis and the gearbox. Here it is flexible, but in the car it is a loaded structure: It expands to the "correct" shape and lets you transmit loads through it, when at full power.
This way of making a documentary is much better than the loud and noisy editing of today. Complete focus on the narration and basic visuals, nothing distracting or fancy. Obviously not interesting or aesthetically pleasing, but then again it doesn't need to be. Couldn't imagine any major brand doing something like this today.
keith duckworth was an absolute genius when it came to designing engines for formula 1 but my god if he was ever a professor i would not be able to pay attention to any of his lectures based on how monotone he was.
no the most powerfull engine was the ra167e from honda 1500hp :) bmw were the only one with the i4 engine and for a stright 4 it was the most powerfull :)
@Ropponmatsu2 You cant 'make' a liner from nikasil, its a superficial coating which is normaly applied to aluminium. i would more likely believe these liners were steel for strength though. it would be pointless putting a aluminium liner in an alloy block or they would have just machined the bores into the block and Nikasil coated them...but they didnt. im with marek0086, a few thou at the most. Beautiful castings though!
How fantastic to see my hero, the late Keith Duckworth, at his drawing board talking about something that he has designed. Rest in peace Keith, we miss you!
Keith told me a funny story about how they puzzled for ages how to stop valve bounce, and how they tried hydraulic lifters but they leaked. I said you should have let them and he said they came to the same conclusion, and then when they saw pneumatic valve systems they all looked at each other and sat around the table saying nothing.
The engine was actually the TH2's problem in 1986. Compared to the BMW's, Renault's, Honda's, Ferrari's & TAG turbo engines, the Ford V6 turbo simply didn't have enough power.Both Alan Jones & Patrick Tambay said it was a shame as the chassis was just about perfect.
I had this o VHS and been loking for it for ages. Sorry you missed the start were they tested the 4 cylinder engine in an effort to replicate what BMW was doing at the time. Thanks a LOT for posting this.
@Ropponmatsu2 if the 'bottom' of the engine was to take even close to 1 or 2mm flex then the crank journals would run out of line and the mains would bind almost instantly (and spectacularly) once that bearing cap is on and torqued down however, it'll brace together and theres no way its gonna move!
England should make engines again and not outsource to India or China..a shame Reciprocal forces are squared in proportion to rpm. Suprised a Wankel never tried? Or against rule as turbines?
@Ropponmatsu2 Its only flexible because the bearing cap is not clamped down at that point.Once its torqued down its solid,loaded structure or not.I dont understand your argument. Either its flexible because its cold or its flexible when its warmed up? what exactly are you trying to tell me? go back and read what you wrote.Engines dont tension themselves hot. As an engine heats the stresses are evened out over all the components it shouldnt exert forces or it would crack. I think your confused.
@marek0086 - Not quite true actually. Remember that the engine is not only a stressed component, in that it has got to be strong enough to carry vehicle loads, but also that as it operates it gets hot. It expands as a result. You can probably bend it by a "few millimeters" because that is EASILY what the bottom of the engine will experience as it operates.
..from finger tight preload.Considering that the adjusters appear to be .5mm thread pitch,and there would be a little compressive loss/flex in the spreading block components and the mounting stud,it is now very easy to calculate the approximate distance the blocks are spreading the engine crankcase at that location,when the adjusters are turned half a turn on the threads.I'll leave the math to you guys.It's very simple.
These engines lasted a qualifying session, but were powerful as hell.... nowadays, v6's used in f1 last many weekends.... and even in their final days they manage to output 650~ cv. Always take a look to the big picture.
Yo, they need to use the 80s to put on the 2026 engine regulations, electric supercharger and variable valve turbo comes together perfectly in holy matrimony.
I don't agree. I think it's moving forward in engine technology. Maybe in a few years we'll se a 3 turbo diesel engine? I wouldn't like that very much but it would make sense technology wise
This engine ended up in the Benettons right? At uni one of the lectures worked at Cosworth for 21 years, in an engine seminar he said this engine made just over 2000hp @ 4 Bar (Absoute), estimates then suggested 3600hp was attainable @ 8 Bar (Absolute).
When he fits the blocks to the crankcase studs,you can see the threaded adjusters mounted into the blocks that will apply force to the bars that spread the blocks apart.He inserts the bars between the blocks and the threaded adjusters,turning the adjusters so there is a finger tight preload on the bars.With his open faced spanner,he turns the threaded adjusters to spread the blocks.Initially,he turns the adjuster the wrong way,but it seems he only turns the adjuster about half a turn..CONTINUED
@marek0086 Keith Duckworth - "God" - As he was referred to - Is talking about the head bolts at the end, he SAYS how flexible the block is. The bolts run all the way down into the block in order to provide strength where the gas pressure is highest...The rest of the engine is very lightly built. One thing that he doesn't mention is the TEC has NO head gasket. The liners are made of a material called Nikasil, and they end at the little black rings seen on top of the cylinders. So....Yes I do.
@charade993 The casting IS capable of being spread by a few millimeters, to add the caps. That was my original posting. Metals expand if heated...But think of it like this: The whole engine block gets physically slightly larger if hot. Hence: Engine manifold bolts have minimum torque settings. The other components expand and tighten even further, as the bolts are made of a metal that does not expand much (this eliminates the gasket) and the block can be thin/flexible but is stiff when heated.
The turbo engines of the era ingested more air at 12.000 rpm than any NA engine turning 16.000 rpm could even hope to bring in. At one point boost was capped as high as 4 bar. Imagine how fast a naturally aspirated engine would have to turn if it was to equal the breathing ability of a turbo engine spinning at 12.000 rpm under 4 bar of pressure!
+Ray Gunderman Engine technology in the 1980's was not as advanced as it was in the 2000's- the 2008 2.4L V8s were revving at 20,000 rpm. 12,000 rpm for forced induction engines that were capable of running 5.5 bar boost is very, very high.
6:07 "For simplicity, oil is forced through external steel tubes" the main reason being to remove the need for a head gasket. If you notice at 6:15 there is also no block to head cooling water path. This results in a cooler head for more power as well as a more rigid block. If there is no gasket...it cannot fail. The 'Wills' firing ring is all thats needed. These engines would be more able to withstand the odd bit of detonation, far more than a conventional block anyway. Great vids!
Great contribution!
Wills ring is a type of gasket.
@charade993 The liners are steel, it turns out, from "The 1000Bhp Grand Prix cars" which covers this engine.
If you tried to drive one of these engines from cold, you'd destroy it, for your reason, but as it gets hot, the block expands and it tensions itself "correctly," because it is bolted to the fuel tank/chassis and the gearbox. Here it is flexible, but in the car it is a loaded structure: It expands to the "correct" shape and lets you transmit loads through it, when at full power.
that blue paper wipe hasnt changed in 30 years!
This looks like someone's shed. Nowadays the workshop looks like a laboratory. Maybe a good indicator on the differences between now and then.
This way of making a documentary is much better than the loud and noisy editing of today. Complete focus on the narration and basic visuals, nothing distracting or fancy. Obviously not interesting or aesthetically pleasing, but then again it doesn't need to be. Couldn't imagine any major brand doing something like this today.
From what i can see it´s a very strong engine construction. Imagine remapping this engine on E85.... Hell would brake loose.
lol
They actually ran these engines on fuel that allowed for far more boost than E85, it was some kind of mixture of toluene and heptane.
keith duckworth was an absolute genius when it came to designing engines for formula 1 but my god if he was ever a professor i would not be able to pay attention to any of his lectures based on how monotone he was.
Real engineers are no talkers :)
Not with a pint in his hand, he was highly entertaining company!
no the most powerfull engine was the ra167e from honda 1500hp :) bmw were the only one with the i4 engine and for a stright 4 it was the most powerfull :)
By 1987/88, Cosworth had the best turbo engine in the field. Then turbos were banned. Cosworth will always be the engine masters!
But Cosworth decided to develop a new NA V8 engine, the DFR for 1988.
removing waste gates during qualifying was common practice. limitless boost for one lap.
@Ropponmatsu2
You cant 'make' a liner from nikasil, its a superficial coating which is normaly applied to aluminium. i would more likely believe these liners were steel for strength though. it would be pointless putting a aluminium liner in an alloy block or they would have just machined the bores into the block and Nikasil coated them...but they didnt. im with marek0086, a few thou at the most. Beautiful castings though!
How fantastic to see my hero, the late Keith Duckworth, at his drawing board talking about something that he has designed. Rest in peace Keith, we miss you!
Keith told me a funny story about how they puzzled for ages how to stop valve bounce, and how they tried hydraulic lifters but they leaked. I said you should have
let them and he said they came to the same conclusion, and then when they saw
pneumatic valve systems they all looked at each other and sat around the table saying nothing.
@@andrewspence3171 what year was it? How old are pneumatic springs?
The engine was actually the TH2's problem in 1986. Compared to the BMW's, Renault's, Honda's, Ferrari's & TAG turbo engines, the Ford V6 turbo simply didn't have enough power.Both Alan Jones & Patrick Tambay said it was a shame as the chassis was just about perfect.
I had this o VHS and been loking for it for ages. Sorry you missed the start were they tested the 4 cylinder engine in an effort to replicate what BMW was doing at the time.
Thanks a LOT for posting this.
It's time for comeback to f1 redbull
Spreads the block by a few thou (not mm) surely?
@Ropponmatsu2 if the 'bottom' of the engine was to take even close to 1 or 2mm flex then the crank journals would run out of line and the mains would bind almost instantly (and spectacularly) once that bearing cap is on and torqued down however, it'll brace together and theres no way its gonna move!
charade993
You should write these guys a letter, let them know your design ideas!!
7:03 Apple watch? Nice try Apple ;)
Ksart yes whats up with that? I don't understand
because diesel is the fuel for trucks & buses, not F1.
Thanks for sharing!!!!!! :)
England should make engines again and not outsource to India or China..a shame
Reciprocal forces are squared in proportion to rpm.
Suprised a Wankel never tried?
Or against rule as turbines?
This is so satisfying
@Ropponmatsu2 Its only flexible because the bearing cap is not clamped down at that point.Once its torqued down its solid,loaded structure or not.I dont understand your argument. Either its flexible because its cold or its flexible when its warmed up? what exactly are you trying to tell me? go back and read what you wrote.Engines dont tension themselves hot. As an engine heats the stresses are evened out over all the components it shouldnt exert forces or it would crack. I think your confused.
7:10 nice apple watch
@marek0086 - Not quite true actually. Remember that the engine is not only a stressed component, in that it has got to be strong enough to carry vehicle loads, but also that as it operates it gets hot. It expands as a result. You can probably bend it by a "few millimeters" because that is EASILY what the bottom of the engine will experience as it operates.
@flipsidedogchop shit yeah cant wait. pitty there going to be half the power then what they had in the 80s. "only" 600-700hp
@flipsidedogchop yup! think about it, turbo-charged small volume 4-pots. The technology can shift straight into production car engines! nice.
guy just drops the piston in there all la di da... definatly not his engine and crank, that shits taboo son in the dealer market
Do you have any more clips of this documentary?? The earlier parts testing the unsuccessful 4cyl engine perhaps?
@guitarstar12 those engines mainly got that power from running 85% toluene fuel, they tended to explode after 1 qualifying lap if i remember :L
Yea i wrote that 2 years ago & that was before the FIA postponed the change in regulations for another year.
Wonder why they didn't use head studs
@xsilversportx remember the most powerful engine in F1 was a 1497cc 4 cylinder by BMW!
..from finger tight preload.Considering that the adjusters appear to be .5mm thread pitch,and there would be a little compressive loss/flex in the spreading block components and the mounting stud,it is now very easy to calculate the approximate distance the blocks are spreading the engine crankcase at that location,when the adjusters are turned half a turn on the threads.I'll leave the math to you guys.It's very simple.
Indeed. I wonder what hairline fractures that may have caused.
@Gostek166 9 months ago when i wrote that, it was supposed to be 2013
@flipsidedogchop with 4 cylinders and only 1600ccm :/
Нормас видос
@Holden308 maybe they should have used a holden
lol is that michael caine commenting? AWESOME
@loowww1 Your spelling is a bigger disaster
Yeah, last time they were 1.5 litre engines.
What a time to be alive
dont watch it then....problem solved!
Great video!
welcome back the Turbos for 2013!
@Ropponmatsu2 Dont believe everything you read on the internet ;)
Even this message?
@flipsidedogchop 2014
turbo turbo!
@marek0086 or less
umm no, it wouldnt be.
what???
2013 F1 TURBO 650 CV MUHAHAHAHAHH! F1 IS DEAD......
yes for f1 2014
Why?
haha :D
H beam connecting rods? How odd.
Why You think is odd?
The strongest design for a steel rod even to this day. You shouldn't be surprised.
These engines lasted a qualifying session, but were powerful as hell.... nowadays, v6's used in f1 last many weekends.... and even in their final days they manage to output 650~ cv. Always take a look to the big picture.
Yo, they need to use the 80s to put on the 2026 engine regulations, electric supercharger and variable valve turbo comes together perfectly in holy matrimony.
fuck...that my dream job...god damn it...
Yeah I was thinking that too.
I don't agree. I think it's moving forward in engine technology. Maybe in a few years we'll se a 3 turbo diesel engine? I wouldn't like that very much but it would make sense technology wise
This engine ended up in the Benettons right?
At uni one of the lectures worked at Cosworth for 21 years, in an engine seminar he said this engine made just over 2000hp @ 4 Bar (Absoute), estimates then suggested 3600hp was attainable @ 8 Bar (Absolute).
When he fits the blocks to the crankcase studs,you can see the threaded adjusters mounted into the blocks that will apply force to the bars that spread the blocks apart.He inserts the bars between the blocks and the threaded adjusters,turning the adjusters so there is a finger tight preload on the bars.With his open faced spanner,he turns the threaded adjusters to spread the blocks.Initially,he turns the adjuster the wrong way,but it seems he only turns the adjuster about half a turn..CONTINUED
@marek0086 Keith Duckworth - "God" - As he was referred to - Is talking about the head bolts at the end, he SAYS how flexible the block is. The bolts run all the way down into the block in order to provide strength where the gas pressure is highest...The rest of the engine is very lightly built. One thing that he doesn't mention is the TEC has NO head gasket. The liners are made of a material called Nikasil, and they end at the little black rings seen on top of the cylinders.
So....Yes I do.
@charade993 The casting IS capable of being spread by a few millimeters, to add the caps. That was my original posting.
Metals expand if heated...But think of it like this: The whole engine block gets physically slightly larger if hot. Hence: Engine manifold bolts have minimum torque settings. The other components expand and tighten even further, as the bolts are made of a metal that does not expand much (this eliminates the gasket) and the block can be thin/flexible but is stiff when heated.
"FEW milimeters"?
Absolute no.
How about turbo diesel? That would be even more fun!
The piston looked like it just fell into the cylinder. I'm guessing their pretty loose?
fiendwithout ,they’re, short for they are.
only 12k rpm? hell the v10's and 8's were running 16k+
It very high value for V6 Turbo engines.
The turbo engines of the era ingested more air at 12.000 rpm than any NA engine turning 16.000 rpm could even hope to bring in. At one point boost was capped as high as 4 bar. Imagine how fast a naturally aspirated engine would have to turn if it was to equal the breathing ability of a turbo engine spinning at 12.000 rpm under 4 bar of pressure!
+Ray Gunderman Engine technology in the 1980's was not as advanced as it was in the 2000's- the 2008 2.4L V8s were revving at 20,000 rpm. 12,000 rpm for forced induction engines that were capable of running 5.5 bar boost is very, very high.
*****
Thank you, proving my point even more.