I appreciate you flashing text on the screen that this was recorded prior to the patch update. I often just listen to the casts at the start of my workday, and was VERY confused when you were still talking about ghosts needing a nerf, lol.
@@LowkoTV Amazing players, amazing games, amazing casting as always!!! I love your content and the community you have created Lowko , glad to be part of it!! Keep up the awesome content and the good vibes man! Love from Argentina
8:40 IM SORRY WHAT Can we even talk about that 1v1 jungling micro from both of them ? I mean seriously ? Lowko is so used to it he doesnt even realize Clem is tanking 5 stalker with 3 marines and 1 marauder. This is crazy insane. Swap MaxPax with any top 50 protoss player instead of top 3, and suddenly Clem actually clears this attack and win the damn game.
24:00 It started in SC1. Probes aren't tied up building, and drones no longer take up supply when building. This made SCVs slightly worse, so they got an extra 5 HP very early in development to compensate. Zerg structures were priced so that they cost the same including the cost of the drone, so zerg didn't pay more by using up the drone. The real question is why the oracle doesn't do 3 more damage?
@@darkdragonlich2299 You are the second person to mention this, and that was what I assumed until in the early days of SC1 (during early promotional stuff for Brood War) one of the developers stated in reply to the issue of worker rushes and why SCVs are better at it, that the extra 5 HP against harrassment was due to the things I mentioned and not to match their fighting ability (shields and HP regen doesn't result in 5 HP during the fight).
What marauders have isn't rocket launcher, but something similar to grenade launchers. They kinda shoot RPG that is great against ground tanky armoured units, but useless against air units.
Love the back and forth here - felt like a real match and not just a handful of games that happened to be between the same players. I do look forward to seeing the matchups after the patch gets released. I think it'll freshen it up.
30:38 Makes a couple Ghosts, uses a single EMP, proceeds to delete the entire Protoss army within a few seconds... When even the greatest Terran player of all time, which is also one of the greatest of all time in general, says that this unit (from his own race), need nerfs against both Protoss and Zerg, you know the unit is beyond broken.
Either EMP's AOE should be minimal (2-3 spellcaster units affected at max, even if a huge clump got hit), just enough to force opponent spellcasters not to clump up lazily, or it should only remove the same amount of energy that it took to cast, with a bit more AOE than currently.
7:12 He's just that good. Max Pax is amazing to watch as a Toss fan. Gives me Parting vibes. Imagine he had a race that wasn't as gimped lmao. Also, Clem is a stand-up guy. Always enjoy watching him and Reynor.
What’s better than a concave? A full surround 😂 Also, as weak as Protoss is in high-level tournaments, MaxPax is just an absolute exception to that rule. If I nerf/buff a race, I’m definitely not watching him, Serral, and Clem to make those decisions because they’re on an entire league of their own.
The nexus energy recharge would be cool if it could apply anywhere there is pylon energy, having emp wipe your casters is dope, so then give the caster heavy army an avenue to soft counter emp
The balance council wanted to let the EMP damage energy, shields and health altogether but decided if the health goes zero the energy doesn't matter. Hence they gave the Ghost the snipe ability :[
Pretty sure the SCV has additional HP because Zerg and Protoss workers have access to free healing (HP regen and shields, respectively), which means that Terran would lose more easily vs worker rushes without the 5 extra or whatever.
the early game defensive tools that protoss needs are better gateway units before their upgrades, meaning stalker being a bit better before blink and especially zealot which is so bad without charge. And I say that as a zerg main, but the early protoss units are hopeless against the amazing marine and marauder which are both top tier units right from the start and even their upgrades come usually earlier
I think this is the core of the problem. It's impossible to buff Gateway tech against Barracks without affecting the Spawning Pool or Roach Warren at the same time. Those early units for Protoss are absolutely useless against Marines and Marauders without their upgrades, and even with them are going to struggle; however they're actually useful against Zerg because they tend to be stuck at a similar power level (aside from the Queen, which is itself a necessary evil to compensate for the similarly weak early-game.) Adepts are the only exception, with their upgrade not giving them functionality, but just a massive improvement in their given role....which then drops off terribly once either faction begins counter play.
@@arbiterally101 I think the stalker could do like a 10% increase in dps without breaking that much, it would still lose against zerglings and do just okay against roaches, depending on the micro. The zealot could be a little faster before charge maybe. But as you laid out the problem is in the barracks, and that's probably true. So let's just address that, which seems easier to me. How the marines and marauders have been untouched for so long is honestly beyond me. They’re already top units and their upgrades comes too early and they're too good. marines get 20% health increase so early in the game. Just take it after maybe fusion core or something like that, similar to what zergling have with adrenal glands. The concussive shells upgrade is stupidly cheap and fast and makes marauder even better against units it shouldn't be that good against, like zealots. It's so cheap that I usually say that even if you had just 3 marauders for the whole game, it would still be convenient to upgrade concussive shells. If you open up a unit test map, you'll see that marines and marauders trade incredibly good against everything unless you have hard counters (like zerglings in open space or aoe against marines or immortals vs marauders or smthing like that). And that is the problem we see early game I believe. Do you know when they start to trade more or less balanced? when you bring medivacs into the fight, which obviously most players do. Medivacs bring incredible utility to the army, so you can use stimpack for longer in the game and haul the memens around, but during the fight they bring the cost-efficiency substantially down because after all they're not cheap. So the first thing I'd try is to look into some changes like I've laid out earlier to tweak marines and marauders, and maybe make the medivacs a bit cheaper to even that out later in the game.
Protoss early games are hard, but MaxPax is truly masterclass in his skill overcoming the early game with so much nerf on Protoss against Terran. Basically, Terran has the most options and leeways in early games.
it would be crazy if maxpax got the widowmine to fire then charged with the zealot into the marine cluster at 19:08, probably could have wiped clem's army
I think the Oracle will not become a stable in this match up even if buffed. The marine seems like to easy as response. But, if one wanted to explicitly kill SCVs faster, then adjusting the spell to do +5 against workers would do the trick. Drones heal and probes have shields. The SCV is the only on of them that needs active healing or repair. The 5 additional hit points make sense from this perspective. The implication for the oracle was merely a side effect.
Not exactly. The oracle origninally did +10vs light, rather than +7, meaning it originally *did* kill SCVs in two hits. And marines. And don't forget that an oracle is faster than even a stimmed marine, too. Oracle damage is what it is because a fast proxy oracle vs terran used to be incredibly difficult to hold without major economic damage.
27:40 - So ironic that everybody is complaining about ghost, they ain't making any!!! If he Clem did any he would've lost!! 28:00 - Ghost academy is being built 30:00 - Ghost emp destroy's the protoss army, GG It took 20 seconds for the comment to age badly, and 2 minutes for it to be proven laughable.
If the concern is wanting a race to win. I think there should be a tournament where it has race restrictions. Then another tournament where it is random from race and map.
I think Terran should have another spell caster aside from ghost.. like think about Zerg.. Zerg had infesters and vipers.. does very different things.. meanwhile ghosts can do everything.. deal damage, deal massive damage (snipe), deal overwhelming damage (nuke), utility*energy removal (emp), and also invisible..
Even with the strong reaction of the community they will pass another huge nerf to protoss (shield battery and the disruptor), with a minimum nerf to ghosts and more random buffs to terrans.
Protoss may have a comeback this year. 😅 Just hope a colossal Mothership doesn't get easily pulled completely by teeny weeny Zerg Vipers coz it's absurd to think an entire floating city gets totally pulled by a lone skinny Viper. 😂
Isn't the justification for the SVC extra hp that they are vulnerable while building or repairing? It's a bit of a stretch since SCV die in mineral lines 90% of the time and the other 10% is when you pull the boys...
if they want to nerf the ghost set the emp to a flat damage instead of nuke damage flat damage of say 50 or 75 would mean you need more emps to delete the targets energy and shields making the ghost way less effective against archons ht col infestor viper ultra by needing more emp to delete the spell caster energy or the shields of a big protoss unit like an archon means you have less snipes to use against ultras or other high value units this might be so effective they need to role back the supply change
30:32 -- yeah, that Ghost nerf really mattered right there. Just one ended the entire game with that play. A true ghost nerf means they die sooner, or the full damage/effect of their spells are dodgable like Psi Storm. Just erasing all the shield and energy from Protoss units like that while having a cloak and being pretty tanky just isn't balanced. And this unit is great against Zerg matchups as well?
23:53 because Drones heal over time as well as the shields from P. I really feel like you are biased vs T. And it doesn´t matter if P does not win offline tournaments. If the best T and Z players would not show up as well, it would be totally open for P to win as well. MaxPax proofes that P is strong. As well as the P count on the ladder.
"SCV has more health than probes and drones, which is very significant" OH REALLY? And probe's ability to regen 50% of that health isn't significant? Drone's ability to morph into a building and save itself isn't significant?? You can't balance things by giving them the same stats, when they have DIFFERENT MECHANICS!
9:21 "Looking at World rankings, serral is in first"
Ah yes, the sky is blue
but sometimes it might become Dark, we might even see Reynor in the moon
I can't believe the top 3 in the world are non-koreans, this is insane. Serral paved the way. I'm so proud of all 3
I appreciate you flashing text on the screen that this was recorded prior to the patch update. I often just listen to the casts at the start of my workday, and was VERY confused when you were still talking about ghosts needing a nerf, lol.
Yeah I recorded this just before they announced the updated patch. Figured it's still worth uploading tho, such a good series!
@@LowkoTV Super agreed, that was a fantastic set of games - especially game 2. Thanks for the casts as always!
@@LowkoTV It WAS a great match. Thanks a ton for casting it for us :D
. Ultralisk need ugrade for 3 seg vs spell 60 seg coldown. Inmortal 3 seg vs dmg coldown 30 seg near a nexus. Soo the gosht no are op anymore.🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
@@LowkoTV Amazing players, amazing games, amazing casting as always!!! I love your content and the community you have created Lowko , glad to be part of it!! Keep up the awesome content and the good vibes man! Love from Argentina
8:40 IM SORRY WHAT
Can we even talk about that 1v1 jungling micro from both of them ? I mean seriously ? Lowko is so used to it he doesnt even realize Clem is tanking 5 stalker with 3 marines and 1 marauder.
This is crazy insane. Swap MaxPax with any top 50 protoss player instead of top 3, and suddenly Clem actually clears this attack and win the damn game.
Not easy with a prism, borderline impossible with a medivac
Lowko advocating for the patch probably influenced the changes of yesterday lol
facts
I like how you casually bring up the Protoss issue in game 😂
24:00 It started in SC1. Probes aren't tied up building, and drones no longer take up supply when building. This made SCVs slightly worse, so they got an extra 5 HP very early in development to compensate. Zerg structures were priced so that they cost the same including the cost of the drone, so zerg didn't pay more by using up the drone. The real question is why the oracle doesn't do 3 more damage?
Depends if that 3 plus damage changes anything vs other units, can we have a + damage to workers? that will help.
There's also the fact that Drones regenerate health, Probes regenerate shields, and SCVs need to repair eachother to heal or use a Medivac.
With drones' HP regen and probes' shield regen, a SCV doesn't stand a chance in 1v1 if it hasn't these 5 more HP
@@darkdragonlich2299 You are the second person to mention this, and that was what I assumed until in the early days of SC1 (during early promotional stuff for Brood War) one of the developers stated in reply to the issue of worker rushes and why SCVs are better at it, that the extra 5 HP against harrassment was due to the things I mentioned and not to match their fighting ability (shields and HP regen doesn't result in 5 HP during the fight).
Terrans: Goes mass marauder early game to harass/end the game quickly
Protoss: Goes Stargate to counter the marauder rush
Terrans: "PROTOSS SO OP!!!"
why marauder can't fire up?!?
Protos looses because he cant a move his airtoss into terran
Also Protoss: terran so op
@sky9t_sulia Why the Zealot can't attack air units?
Was your question genuine?
@@mihairo83 zealot don't have a rocket launcher😁
What marauders have isn't rocket launcher, but something similar to grenade launchers. They kinda shoot RPG that is great against ground tanky armoured units, but useless against air units.
1:45 Thank you Lowko, very cool.
Love the back and forth here - felt like a real match and not just a handful of games that happened to be between the same players.
I do look forward to seeing the matchups after the patch gets released. I think it'll freshen it up.
43:16 That was a very clever move, very nice!! 🤭
Thanks!
30:38 Makes a couple Ghosts, uses a single EMP, proceeds to delete the entire Protoss army within a few seconds...
When even the greatest Terran player of all time, which is also one of the greatest of all time in general, says that this unit (from his own race), need nerfs against both Protoss and Zerg, you know the unit is beyond broken.
Either EMP's AOE should be minimal (2-3 spellcaster units affected at max, even if a huge clump got hit), just enough to force opponent spellcasters not to clump up lazily, or it should only remove the same amount of energy that it took to cast, with a bit more AOE than currently.
Those 4 gate pushes were insane!
Good casting as always Lowko!
8:30 and the dropship warpgate dance is premier Starcraft 2 and the music SLAPS
Thanks for the video, Lowko. Happy Friday! ❤
7:12 He's just that good. Max Pax is amazing to watch as a Toss fan. Gives me Parting vibes. Imagine he had a race that wasn't as gimped lmao.
Also, Clem is a stand-up guy. Always enjoy watching him and Reynor.
8:20 watching MaxPax juggle the weak Stalkers from the front-to-back of the attack line had me dizzy just WATCHING it, can't imagine DOING it o.O
I really hope maxpax will play some offline tournaments
Game 2 demonstrates the importance of Protoss keeping battery overcharge in the game
Except it made no difference.
Game 3 demonstrates the importance of nerfing the ghost (more) 😂
That bait drop in the last match was amazing
That was so badass! 4 Gate Stalkers is awesome!
after the first game... this is some of the best sc2 i've ever seen
07:03 - 09:07 what a nice fight! 😁🤘
43:18 HOOOLLLYYY SHHHH.... that was INDEED BEAUTIFUL
Lowko casting? Automatically series of the year. ❤
Late but liked because MaxPax is here
Clem publicly sacrificing the Ghost so that the only really broken thing about the Terran race can remain unnoticed (the mule) 💀
These two play such spectacular Starcraft!
that troop juggling in the first round was great xD
Love it. I'm Max pax fan too. Thanks lowko
What’s better than a concave? A full surround 😂
Also, as weak as Protoss is in high-level tournaments, MaxPax is just an absolute exception to that rule. If I nerf/buff a race, I’m definitely not watching him, Serral, and Clem to make those decisions because they’re on an entire league of their own.
Banger of a match!
The nexus energy recharge would be cool if it could apply anywhere there is pylon energy, having emp wipe your casters is dope, so then give the caster heavy army an avenue to soft counter emp
I dunno about "Game of the Year", but it WAS a good match.
GG to MaxPax
petition to remove Ghosts so we can all stop yapping about nerfing them
what a series 🎉🎉🎉🎉 What a caster ❤❤❤❤
yaaaaay, ma' MaxPax boy :D thx Lowko, you never fail to deliver
I like the "In the end" insertion 😁 Linkin Park's hymn of the 90s kids 🖤
I love how after losing 28 SCVs, Terran can still come back with just MULEs...
great games! great series!
22:41 I JUST did the same and sung that song out loud hahaha I'm watching too much Lowko 😅
The balance council wanted to let the EMP damage energy, shields and health altogether but decided if the health goes zero the energy doesn't matter. Hence they gave the Ghost the snipe ability :[
5:33 Balance changes: Warp prism is now called Medivac.
The medivac micro at 8:47 is insane
So glad seeing a Terran get wrecked. That race has been OP since 2010.
Pretty sure the SCV has additional HP because Zerg and Protoss workers have access to free healing (HP regen and shields, respectively), which means that Terran would lose more easily vs worker rushes without the 5 extra or whatever.
Repair takes time and costs
the early game defensive tools that protoss needs are better gateway units before their upgrades, meaning stalker being a bit better before blink and especially zealot which is so bad without charge. And I say that as a zerg main, but the early protoss units are hopeless against the amazing marine and marauder which are both top tier units right from the start and even their upgrades come usually earlier
I think this is the core of the problem. It's impossible to buff Gateway tech against Barracks without affecting the Spawning Pool or Roach Warren at the same time.
Those early units for Protoss are absolutely useless against Marines and Marauders without their upgrades, and even with them are going to struggle; however they're actually useful against Zerg because they tend to be stuck at a similar power level (aside from the Queen, which is itself a necessary evil to compensate for the similarly weak early-game.)
Adepts are the only exception, with their upgrade not giving them functionality, but just a massive improvement in their given role....which then drops off terribly once either faction begins counter play.
@@arbiterally101 I think the stalker could do like a 10% increase in dps without breaking that much, it would still lose against zerglings and do just okay against roaches, depending on the micro. The zealot could be a little faster before charge maybe.
But as you laid out the problem is in the barracks, and that's probably true. So let's just address that, which seems easier to me. How the marines and marauders have been untouched for so long is honestly beyond me. They’re already top units and their upgrades comes too early and they're too good. marines get 20% health increase so early in the game. Just take it after maybe fusion core or something like that, similar to what zergling have with adrenal glands. The concussive shells upgrade is stupidly cheap and fast and makes marauder even better against units it shouldn't be that good against, like zealots. It's so cheap that I usually say that even if you had just 3 marauders for the whole game, it would still be convenient to upgrade concussive shells.
If you open up a unit test map, you'll see that marines and marauders trade incredibly good against everything unless you have hard counters (like zerglings in open space or aoe against marines or immortals vs marauders or smthing like that). And that is the problem we see early game I believe. Do you know when they start to trade more or less balanced? when you bring medivacs into the fight, which obviously most players do. Medivacs bring incredible utility to the army, so you can use stimpack for longer in the game and haul the memens around, but during the fight they bring the cost-efficiency substantially down because after all they're not cheap. So the first thing I'd try is to look into some changes like I've laid out earlier to tweak marines and marauders, and maybe make the medivacs a bit cheaper to even that out later in the game.
24:50 whats the oracle change? and the dt one
My two favourite pro-gamers!
Yes! MaxPax!
I thought this would be him trying out the updated changes to the stalker. 😅
Regardless, thanks future Lowko!
Protoss early games are hard, but MaxPax is truly masterclass in his skill overcoming the early game with so much nerf on Protoss against Terran. Basically, Terran has the most options and leeways in early games.
Terran is just blatantly overpowered it’s honestly disgusting not much has been done.
@@silverpro8356 Terran is strong against Zerg, look at the balance stats and at tournament level PvT is 51% (1% Protoss favored) 😂
this is my game of the year. HOLY CRAP
its kinda funny how you said "there are no ghost and they are so aggressive" As soon as the ghost come out, "terran wins"
it would be crazy if maxpax got the widowmine to fire then charged with the zealot into the marine cluster at 19:08, probably could have wiped clem's army
Man it was almost goty.. super dynamic
Clem trolling himself. Legend.
Next game you cast better be protoss after the new patch update!! 🤣👍🏼👍🏼
We really need MaxPax in offline tournaments
I wanna see one of these matches on good old fastest
Harstem casted an interesting Protoss vs. Clem just 6 days ago... I couldn't tell you who won, but Clem definitely struggled 😊
The level of micro by Max is just insane, I don't think he for hit by a single banshee shot in Clem's base.
Another GOTY for the playlist!
Ironic!
27:40 there is no Ghosts yet, completely unviable
30:33 a single Ghost makes the winning play, GG is called
10:39 to be sincere... It's impossible to wathc MaxPax games and not be one of his fans
finaly love this series super intens games
i cant believe what just happened maxpax is making things easier on protoss
good 'ol reliable 4gate
The Raven should have energy provided activated cloaking, Terran has that tech on other vehicles, what’s up not on the detector.
I think the Oracle will not become a stable in this match up even if buffed. The marine seems like to easy as response.
But, if one wanted to explicitly kill SCVs faster, then adjusting the spell to do +5 against workers would do the trick.
Drones heal and probes have shields. The SCV is the only on of them that needs active healing or repair. The 5 additional hit points make sense from this perspective. The implication for the oracle was merely a side effect.
Not exactly. The oracle origninally did +10vs light, rather than +7, meaning it originally *did* kill SCVs in two hits. And marines. And don't forget that an oracle is faster than even a stimmed marine, too. Oracle damage is what it is because a fast proxy oracle vs terran used to be incredibly difficult to hold without major economic damage.
27:40 - So ironic that everybody is complaining about ghost, they ain't making any!!! If he Clem did any he would've lost!!
28:00 - Ghost academy is being built
30:00 - Ghost emp destroy's the protoss army, GG
It took 20 seconds for the comment to age badly, and 2 minutes for it to be proven laughable.
zero mention of the citizens arrest in gm 3 is driving me insane!!!!!
make it make sense that 1 emp wins a game against protoss, leave the ghost out of the discussion EMP NEEDS A NERF!
First game was nutz, chem fought long at the end.
Let's protect protoss against early Terran agression sure and give Maxpax even more tools to stalker swarm 😁
Love this gameeee
amazing games!
MaxPaximus to the Maximus!
Hey lowko. You ever think about doing a game of the year tournament at the end of the year?
If the concern is wanting a race to win. I think there should be a tournament where it has race restrictions. Then another tournament where it is random from race and map.
I see new sc2 lowko video I click like
Did Clem manner mule in game 1 @8:22?
Clem showing real sportsmanship. A victory is only cheapened if you have an unfair advantage.
Like in game 3 with the single EMP that deleted the entire Protoss army in 30:38?
Yeah, like that.
Lowko more like im in love with the coco
MaxPax's micro is so unreal. O_O
I think Terran should have another spell caster aside from ghost.. like think about Zerg.. Zerg had infesters and vipers.. does very different things.. meanwhile ghosts can do everything.. deal damage, deal massive damage (snipe), deal overwhelming damage (nuke), utility*energy removal (emp), and also invisible..
Even with the strong reaction of the community they will pass another huge nerf to protoss (shield battery and the disruptor), with a minimum nerf to ghosts and more random buffs to terrans.
I think it would be very important to focus on the real pro gamers of sc2 and how they perform in the new patch. Of course it’s the viewer games.
I thought hamster invented this 😂
Did I miss something, when was the 4 gate?
Maximumus Paximus shows his best game
Protoss may have a comeback this year. 😅
Just hope a colossal Mothership doesn't get easily pulled completely by teeny weeny Zerg Vipers coz it's absurd to think an entire floating city gets totally pulled by a lone skinny Viper. 😂
Isn't the justification for the SVC extra hp that they are vulnerable while building or repairing?
It's a bit of a stretch since SCV die in mineral lines 90% of the time and the other 10% is when you pull the boys...
if they want to nerf the ghost set the emp to a flat damage instead of nuke damage
flat damage of say 50 or 75 would mean you need more emps to delete the targets energy and shields making the ghost way less effective against archons ht col infestor viper ultra
by needing more emp to delete the spell caster energy or the shields of a big protoss unit like an archon means you have less snipes to use against ultras or other high value units
this might be so effective they need to role back the supply change
30:32 -- yeah, that Ghost nerf really mattered right there. Just one ended the entire game with that play. A true ghost nerf means they die sooner, or the full damage/effect of their spells are dodgable like Psi Storm. Just erasing all the shield and energy from Protoss units like that while having a cloak and being pretty tanky just isn't balanced. And this unit is great against Zerg matchups as well?
i still dont get why emp is available from the start and not a research
23:53 because Drones heal over time as well as the shields from P. I really feel like you are biased vs T. And it doesn´t matter if P does not win offline tournaments. If the best T and Z players would not show up as well, it would be totally open for P to win as well. MaxPax proofes that P is strong. As well as the P count on the ladder.
"SCV has more health than probes and drones, which is very significant" OH REALLY?
And probe's ability to regen 50% of that health isn't significant?
Drone's ability to morph into a building and save itself isn't significant??
You can't balance things by giving them the same stats, when they have DIFFERENT MECHANICS!
It isn't your birthday, but I liked the video anyway.
Good match
Everyone is complaining about ghosts but we haven't really seen any in this matchup...
Moments later
Single ghost uses one ability and wins the game.