Bingo! It’s not your tools that determine the quality of your work, it’s your ability to use them in a way that produces a quality result. Very good video!
I've been a finish carpenter for 40 years now. Marking the line properly is important, but actually cutting it on the line proves to be way more difficult than the accurracy of the actual line. If you need to make a bunch of cuts at a consistent length, a stop is the way to go. And then be very careful when butting things to the stop so as not to knock it out of whack. Personally, I don't think that a $200 square is gonna make me me a more accurate woodworker. The techniques and experience I've gained over the years far outweighs the price and performance of high end tools. What's most important tools in general is that they can hold their settings once set to a accurate 90 degree for instance. One can perform some very beautiful and accurate work with modest tools if he can learn the limitations of the tool and work around them. A $3000 table saw will not make a novice into a pro, but it just might allow a pro to produce accurate work more quickly and efficiently.
Preach!!! As a newbie wood worker I was constantly confused at why my “perfectly” measured and marked dimensions resulted in huge gaps and wonky surfaces. Must be my crummy tools… little did I realise I wasn’t using the same reference edges, same tape or rule or was cutting on either side of the line. Spent hours researching “crows feet”, buying ridiculously thin pencils. Still daylight between joins. Takes a lot of practice to put a piece of wood against a blade and cut straight. Most often than not the measuring tool and the cutting tool are perfectly adequate, the person holding those two however is what makes the difference
Great Video. I am a retired precision machinist and I can tell you there are numerous ways to check a squares accuracy. The easiest way I have found is to select a flat surface (your table saw surface works quite well) and face a known accurate square (fixed Machinist Square or 1-2-3 block) against the other, measure the gap between the two squares (feeler gages work well, 1 degree equals approx .017 per inch). I agree it only matters how accurate the tool is, when setting up your machinery. 1-2-3 blocks are almost a necessity in your shop, they are extremely accurate and serve as a perfect 90 degree standard.
When I first started woodworking, I followed a lot of influencers who had Woodpecker products and, like most n00bs, I, too, dreamt of the day I could purchase them. I own precisely one Woodpecker product and it's their centering ruler...which I barely use. On the other hand I do own two combination squares and a double square. One is a Starrett combination square, one from PEC and my double square is also from PEC. Seeing your video brought back some memories and thoughts: my PEC cost me less than $40 each. My Starrett is the most expensive one but I use that for calibrating my table saw. For layouts, my PEC squares do well. I found that it doesn't matter how accurate my squares are if me cutting with a handsaw is less than stellar. I have three squares I use for calibrating tools and for making jigs which help me not just accurate but repeatable.
I was 100% sure I would be a better woodworker with the red tools, so I bought a lot of them - turns out skill is not based on how much you spend on your tools. This video is oh so right on!
I am writing this on a desk made by my granddad in 1921. The dovetails are still tight, leg mortise and tenons solid, and the draws still glide with ease. I inherited his tools- planes, chisels. saws, winding sticks, and bits and brace. Measuring devices- 3 dividers, unmarked straight edges, winding sticks , string, plumb bob and a wooden handle home made square (no measurements). Not sure if he knew the knew the difference between .01 or .0005" but know he would find it crazy to spend more on shipping and measuring tools than investing that money into good quality wood. I have resisted the urge to buy red tools but have poured money into a lot of other somewhat less expensive stuff. Results, my mortise, tenons and dovetails are far from picturesque. As the old saying goes, it isn't the tool but the man (or person to be pc) behind it that makes all the difference.
Two comments from a retired Physics professor who now enjoys woodworking. 1. Everything you said about expensive red tools is true, although they do offer pretty wall mounts. However, the accuracy of measurement (or lack of) is dependent upon how much is “added” to the error. I recently was in charge of a church project which had us building a handicap ramp. I had to show my helpers why we needed to check the square of the 4’ deck boards often so we wouldn’t end up with a fan. After 5 boards it became obvious. 2. Please refer to another TH-cam video entitled “Adam Savage’s Epiphany on the Science of Measurement”. At the end of the 45 minute video, you will know why there is absolutely no exact measurement which can be done by human hands or man made instruments. To the point… everything is an estimate. We have 360 degrees in a circle because we KNEW that it took 360 days for the Earth to go around the Sun. Opps.
One thing to remember about Woodpecker and the TH-cam world.....They give content builders their product to advertise the name. If 90% of the TH-cam builders had to pay the Woodpecker price most wouldn't. But the average user watching assumes the "need" of a $200.00 square. I always relate back to the fact that Stradivarius built violins with hand tools in the 1700's...fairly sure they didn't have anything down to ten-thousands of an inch.
Yup, to me this falls under the realm of understanding the material you are working with. You can be very accurate in woodworking, and have to be for some things being made, but wood will always be a "living" material that moves, twists, grows/shrinks out of our control. Even the machine only woodworkers will only be so accurate compared to someone working with metal in a machine shop. This comes up all the time in hand tool only communities with people wanting to be as accurate as a machine, it is possible but not worth that effort for many jobs. "flat enough" and and "square enough" are things that need to be learned and understood, especially when doing things by eye and hand.
Really enjoyed the content. Been using 30 year old machine squares, and 123 blocks for years in my wood working. You are so correct in stating it is the cut....
At the end of the day, can you see gaps in your joiner? If your Swanson speed square or you 30 year old Craftsman combination square leaves no gaps in your joinery then do you need to be more accurate? If they do step it up. If not, bring on the next measure, mark and cut item. Frankly you can build super tight things with story sticks and and a marking knife. Are things like Woodpecker and Incra more accurate? Yes. Does it matter? Your call.
I 100% agree and I love the way you worded it. I stepped up to the I-Gaging because I really wanted to get away from basic framing speed squares. I think my new selection will be just fine and it didn't break the bank. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks There was this crazy white haired old guy who said, “Find the simplest solution that works and no simpler” or somthing like that. Makes perfect sense when you put it in any context including woodworking. Wait, I remember it was Albert Einstien. 😉
@@lincolndickerson1293 Ha ha. I just came from watching a video about Gemeral Theory of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, and Gravity. Measurement, location, reality - boil down to infinitesimal accuracy of woodwork measurement rendered of doubtful relevance in face of wood movement with moisture, heat, compression against material it's fixed to, etc. I've managed both construction and fine furniture woodwork with basic set squares for 50 years. Are they true 90⁰ to 1000th degree, No. Should I replace them? Possibly. Cabinets in old UK housing stock need an element of plasticity so dead square looks wrong
I agree completely. It also depends on what your building, even if you don't include building framing. On top of that, wood changes based on humidity and temperature, so it won't matter in the end. Also, paper is generally 0.002 thick, and unless you're a very experienced machinist, you won't get past 0.001 accuracy, and it doesn't matter for a lot of parts. Any of those squares work fine, although I've found some older abused ones especially that disagree with each other by 1/4" or more, and that does matter. Beyond that, buy the quality you can afford and spend money elsewhere
I have a number of woodpecker, starret, iguaging and other brands of layout tools and I will say that woodpecker and Starret tools add nice creature comfort features to their tools that other cheaper brands either don’t have or imitate badly. Things like engraved lettering and low glare metal that is easy to read under bright shop lights, positive locks that make it’s easy to trust the setting of a tool even after it’s been in your apron for a few days, cutouts for the kinds of marking tools woodworkers keep in their shop and others. I am not saying I want to replace all my tools with a wall of red but for a few what I consider cleverly implemented items they are nice to have.
So, I'm in love with accuracy. I have many extremely precise references, and I love them all, with my metal working projects .0001" is a very tiny slice. When I first started woodworking I was passionate about "accuracy". Today, I know that far more important is to plan and cut your pieces using a reliable reference or jig. That along with wood being organic, it moves, anything you do, no matter how accurate, it's temporary. For example, if you need to cut drawers? Cut all the sides to width at the same fence setting. Legs? Set a saw stop and cut them all to length. Exactly to your point, the mark means nothing: it doesn't guide the chop saw blade to that super-precise square cut.
Hi "Angry." A good, poignant video regarding the accuracy of tools. I've compared many of my woodworking tools to my machinist tools, and for wood, the woodworking tools exceed my standards (and ability) for cutting and assembling. You hit the nail on the head when you said, "The ability to cut." Now sink the nail by adding, "The ability to assemble." As an experiment once, I 'routed' some wood on my milling machine, and then duplicated my efforts on my homemade router table. You can't tell the difference. I like your show, buddy..., you earned my subscription.
Making a machinist's toolbox, I used my milling machine for the drawer end joints- they were more accurate than my router table- and a lot faster to 'dial in' the numbers (by DRO). Even though I have fitted a DRO to my router table...
@@angrybeaverwoodworks Haha for sure it certainly was, really quality video overall. I hope your channel grows well! You've def earned a new subscriber. 👍🏻
Years ago I apprenticed as a tile setter, working on very high end remodeling jobs. As the guy cutting the tile that the master tile setter marked, I quickly learned that I needed to know if I should make the cut ON the line, to the LEFT of the line, or to the RIGHT of the line he made. Sometimes when fine adjustments to my cuts needed to be made he would ask me to recut the tile and only take off material equal to half the thickness of the saw blade. Context in defining accuracy is where it's at. Good video!
It's wood. Measure it's thickness and I guarantee a week later it will be more than 0.004 different. If you want that level of accuracy use metal and get a high end laser CNC. Otherwise it's simply paying for ignorance (not understanding that wood changes depending on humidity and temp) or bragging rights. Excellent video.
You've got to be probably the 100th person to point out humidity, temp, wood movement, etc... I really wish that I had thought about that while filming. It really should be part of this video. Thanks for commenting
Very entertaining! As you say, it is not the marking out, it is the cutting. The most accurate work is never marked out- the machine tools set the precision to be achieved. Most of all, thank you for introducing tolerance to woodworkers. As a sometime machinist, I rail on many channels at the use of 'perfectly square', exactly', 'spot on' and other superlatives. Everything, of course, has a tolerance and keeping that in focus always benefits what is (and can be) achieved. Accuracy costs (both in time and equipment) exponentially as one gets closer - and wood moves. Getting a value more accurate than it will have moved to next week is pointless. Tolerance therefore widens- engineering drawings have marked tolerances on all critical dimensions, wood drawings not- but then much of woodwork is still in the hand fitting era.
Marketing, marketing, marketing. Use your brains, unless you've got money burning a hole in your pockets. Too many variables to maintain that tolerance all the way to the end product. No one has time for this level of work. Excellent video.
I have build hundreds of frames, and hundreds of square panels for artwork, none of them have ever been less than, or closer than 1/16" to 1/32" accurate. I can't tell. Nobody else can tell. I have been told that my work is amazingly accurate and precise, too. (Told by a framing shop, btw.) At those tolerances, glue squeeze out make more of a difference in square than the cut!
Most woodworking projects are done with multiple pieces having the same measurement. This means that the best, most accurate measuring tool is a stop block: a chunk of cast-off wood.
I picked up woodworking again after retiring from a career in metrology - the science and practice of measurement. In my view, the precision requierd from the measurement tool depends on properties of the material being measured. In this case we are talking about wood. It is well known that most species of wood expand and contract due to seasonal changes in humidity. In most species, those seasonal changes are considerably greater than the specifications of the measuring tool being used. Also, metal measuring tools change dimensionally with changes in temperature. I generally don't obsess about the measurement tools, because I know the wood movement is greater. On the other hand, I do control the enviroment in my shop as well as I can afford to. Not as tight as a calibration laboratory, but as stable as I can make it. That will minimize the temperature effects on the tools, and the humidity effects on the wood. I have a variety of precision dimensionsl measuring tools, acqiured over the span of thirty years or more, from a variety of suppliers ranging from precision tool manufacters to Harbor Freight and thrift stores. Most important is a * sharp single-bevel marking knife * to make layout lines on wood. Technically it it not a "measuring" tool, but it is ESSENTIAL for making the layout lines on wood. A pen or pencil is fine for notes, but not for knowing precisely where to cut. Micrometer, dial caliper, digital caliper, thickness gauge, a set of metal precision dimensional blocks, a pair of steel 1-2-3 blocks, a granite surface plate, dial indicator and base, a set of three machinist squares (from iGaging), precision straightedges in three lengths, several spirit levels in lengths from 6 inches to eight feet, feeler gages, digital thermometer (*** a table of emissivity values for materials you work with is essential for this!), a digital tachometer, an anemometer, a variety of steel rules, a Woodpeckers "Mini Square" (rarely used!), three sizes of speed squares, and recently acquired an excellent Starret combination square with a protractor head from a retirement/moving sale. I also have a set of machinists drill bits in 1/64 inch increments - the shank end of those can also be used as precision measuring tools. Most of these inherently have more more precision than I consider "necessary" for woodworking. A number of these tools are ones I do not actually use on wood. Instead, I use them to verify the precision and accuracy of tools that ARE used on wood. For example, to verify that a square is actually square, or that the blade of my radial arm saw is actually square to the table and/or fence. Also, all of my "precision" measuring tools are kept in one drawer, and most of the others in a different drawer - and a small number hang on the wall. Finally there are the plastic right-angle blocks used to align & clamp boxes & cabinets. They are not strictly "measuring tools", but they are used during assembly, so I use a machinist square to verify them before use, as well. Key for me is to know what to realistically expect from a measuring tool, and periodically compare to a "better" tool. After all, for thousands of years woodworkers did not have access to the type and variety of dimensional measuring tools available now, and many turned out work that even today are considered examples of excellence.
You made a good point about a marking knife being more accurate than a pencil. There's probably been more than a few individuals to make the mistake of using their marking knife along their expensive aluminum Woodpecker square.
It would do us good to remember that some of the finest furniture ever built was made with hand tools, laid out with wooden rules and cut with hand saws, planes and chisels. Moreover, wood, and even steel, "breath" or move with temperature, humidity, and time. To my limited knowledge, I doubt that anyone ever checked to see if the sides of King Edward's writing desk were parallel to one thousandth of an inch. We should strive for accuracy but not obsess. This is supposed to be fun.
Good point. I think that they may have almost custom fit a lot of pieces to make up for a lack of laser-like precision. However they did it they did it without modern tools. I am always blown away by the craftsmanship of old furniture.
You Sir, are a blast...and right on the money! Dad used to say, "What the hell's the point of spending all that time measuring, if you aren't gonna cut on the $^$&%&* line anyway?" or my old boss: "they measure with a micrometer, mark with a grease pencil, then cut it with an axe". Awesome video!
That's funny... I had an old boss like that as well. His phrase was always, " Throw bout 5 more nails in there, it'll be fine. Looks good from back here." I appreciate you watching and commenting. More to come.
My Bible says get wisdom: that translates to common sense: without THAT you are a FOOL! There are a miriad of smart, educated fools out there, which tool makers COUNT ON to buy their EXTREMELY accurate tools, to mark with a grease pencil, then cut with an axe, or chainsaw! Yes, I can see their smerk, as they say(in the board room), well boys, they paid a thousand for our new pencil, accurate to a millionth of a micron; lets just up the anty till the sales die down...he, he, ha,ha,snicker, snicker... I can take a handsaw, and use the corner of a cardboard box from my recycle bin, and a dull pencil, and build a desk with pigeon holes.
Keep in mind that the 99.9% of the non woodworker people won't even notice how accurate you were. So unless you're making a gift to another woodworker, you don't have to worry that much. And I mean worrying about .004 .001 or whatever.
Controversial Opinion, with a bit of personal experience... I use Marking and Layout Tools from Harbor Freight. All of my squares, I bought at the same time. I brought a 1X6 piece of Purple Heart (its what I had at the time) and a marking knife, into the store. I used those to check all of the squares i wanted, and only bought the ones that were perfect. My work is good. Not perfect, but there aren't many people that could point out any flaws. Price doesn't necessarily mean Quality.
You bring up a lot of great points when it comes to accuracy of your tools. Let's be honest though...Woodpeckers buyers aren't always buying for accuracy, but more for job specific tools. I don't own a lot of them, but I own a few. My DelVe square is great at its primary purpose...laying out mortise and tenons. If you're laying out a ton of them, the design of that tool is perfect. However, I think there might be a lot of buyers that buy just for the brand and the influencers they follow. Regardless, great video and great info!
Agreed, the few woodpecker tools I have are specialty tools. I plan to buy a couple more. I wouldn't spend that kind of money on the majority of tools but some stuff is worth it to me.
yeah the Delve square has a lot of neat/nice features on it that make it very convenient and improve efficiency. The speed squares I own lack those additional features.
My approach is two fold. 1) you can do the “score a line and flip” test to check for true square on a cheaper carpentry square…if it is a bit out you can true up the outside angle with wet and dry until it is bang on correct….This can make a useable silk purse from a Chinesium pigs ear. OR -- 2) Buy one, super accurate square, like a Woodpeckers tri-square and use that only for joints that require such accuracy. To this end I have a 300mm Woodpeckers square for if I really need it (a luxury purchase at US 140 bucks) …and a good brand name (DeWalt)Rafter Square that is close enough, for everything else. BTW super accuracy on a tiny square is pointless…the angle of error multiplies with distance…and since you only sight the square by eye with its limited resolution anyway….how would you know if your saw blade was off by half the width of the finest pencil anyways?
I like the commentary, very good. Just a little comment from a recently retired tradesman. Protect you tools! Regarding precision equipment: Drop it, bump it, etc. It may need to be repaired and/or recalibrate. In this case we're you taught to correct the variance of your specific squares. I've done it for 40 years, and I won't try those tolerances without sending it to repair shops.
If I may suggest a better way to determine the accuracy of a speed square, machinist's square, etc.: Lay out the two parallel lines with a single bevel marking pen, as described in the video. But before doing so, lay down a piece of blue tape and then roller it into the surface as if you were trying to ensure a very nice plywood cut. After making the two cuts you believe to be parallel, remove the tape between the lines. The tape will make it far easier to see the edges of the lines. The next step is to ensure you actually measure across the parallel lines consistently. Lay the square against an adjacent side; it does not need to be perpendicular to the first side. but it does need to be straight. You can now use the arm of the square as a guide when using the calipers to compare two locations along the parallelogram. Otherwise, you may very well be adding errors to your investigation.
I am a DIYer but also an engineer so accuracy to me paramount when i build furniture (actually just helped my brother in law build his deck and he kept telling me measurements don’t need to be down to 1/16”). I’ve looked at woodpecker products and wanted then but i think that their price point is too high so I’ve sought out alternatives. There are many options at much better price points, i’ve recently come across another TH-cam page “hooked on wood” who has a series reviewing China tools, if you haven’t seen this you need to! I have bought several items and I’ll put them up against Wood pecker brand!
Great video. I have had the Igauge combo squares for over a year (12 and a 6 inch) . They are very good and way more accurate than my woodworking deserves. I got them at Lee Valley which sells some of the highest quality woodworking tools you can buy and the staff there recommended them.
Glad to hear that someone has been using them for awhile. And I'm glad to hear that they are serving you well. Thanks for commenting and thank you for the kind words.
You hit on the real key point towards the end. It's the accuracy of your cutting tools. Following from that point, determine what measuring tools (or cutting jigs) are needed to ensure the accuracy of your cutting tools. To ensure the accuracy of my cuts, I have a machinist square, and a digital tilt meter. For crosscuts, I have a miter guage and a Dubby sled. For planing, I have digital calipers. As for measuring, I use rules, a tape measure, or 1-2-3 blocks and setup bars. But generally, they don't have to be accurate, because after the initial cut, most everything is measured using relative dimensioning, or jigs.
You....like so many others have been talking about RELATIVE measuring. I wish that I had added that to the video. I think I could bring up that topic in some future videos. I honestly tend to use a lot of different jigs and sleds. I've been building new versions and upgrades to all of mine since I have revamped my shop. I appreciate you commenting and thank you for watching.
I agree with the angle you're approaching this topic from. I'm also tired of the Fancy Boys who all have the same tools displayed their walls. They all force feed their viewers with the same recommendations on tooling. Red squares, red clamps, red (and green) power tools, and god forbid you don't own the red labeled table saw. I've stopped watching 90% of them NOT because they want you to take the red pill, but more importantly their projects aren't that impressive. They all just regurgitate the same old things. And with all these fancy tools these fancy boys aren't really making fancy projects. Most of them are just mediocre to say the best. If you want to impress me show me what you can do, be creative with your projects not with your salesmanship skills. I've all but stopped posting my projects on social media mainly because I don't want my hobby to about likes or Instant gratification from people that I don't even know. I don't do woodworking to impress people or to make money, I do it as a form of meditation and relaxation. It's downright spiritual in many ways. I give away most of my work. My gratification comes from learning something new every time I finish a project. That's how I feel about the whole situation. I look forward to seeing more of your videos in the future, it's refreshing to hear someone with a different perspective. Take care.
YOU SIR......You are amazing and that has GOT to be one of the best comments I have ever read since creating my channel. I think that you may very well like the new video that I am currently working on because it touches on that very topic. But in honesty, I think that your comments here have just saved THAT video. I was having issues with outlining that topic, but you way you presented it here is PERFECT. And for the record, I hate the GREEN tools, Hate them with a passion. Thank you for this amazing comment and I hope that you stay tuned for some good future content.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks Thanks for hearing me out. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my reply. The comment sections on Boobtube and social media outlets can be a challenge. There's a fine line between being an over the top fan boy or being a demonic troll. It's frustrating when an "influencer/maker" doesn't have any capacity for critique. Not concerning how they film their content, or the opinions they give, those things are subjective. But rather concerning the project it self. It seems like the "Maker" community subscribes to this nonconfrontational, participation trophy mentality. Let's all make cute stickers and sell merchandise to promote "our brand" nonsense. Sounds like I'm becoming a negative Nancy or just a grumpy old man, but I think it's important to air these grievances every now and then. I look for to watching more of your content.
You speak the truth young man. On the basis of all the TH-cam Makers that have sold out to Woodpeckers and by their popularity sold alot of product for them I ask myself this? How the he'll did I make a living for decades when all I had was a set of four steel engineers squares, a sliding bevel, a very accurate combination square, steel rules, an analogue vernier and a marking knife? Beats me how all those pieces I sold that were so inaccurate never just fell to pieces. Must have been good glue, which by the way is another complete nonsense in today's climate. Woodpeckers are the woodworking equilivent of Apple. Great video I hope it influences alot of people. Now I'd to see a video on relative dimensioning as that is the best way to get consistency in any piece youmare making.
This is a good start, but there are further clarifications needed to really understand the issues. First? Within .00XX OVER WHAT DISTANCE?! Just a number means nothing; there HAS to be a scale as well. If it's accurate to a thousandth over.... a THOUSANDTH, then that's not terribly helpful is it? Second, how accurately you can dial in your tools is also a factor, but remember that some power tools are scary accurate... (I have a sliding table saw that holds .003" over 10.5 FEET...) so you CAN cut accurately, and hand tools count as well. Planes can easily take shavings well under the thickness of that piece of paper. Finally, it's also important to understand the issue of the multiplicative error. If you're making a box, you don't need ONE 90º angle; you need FOUR. If each is off by a few thousandths over a short distance, you will easily see a gap when you put it all together at one of the corners. Ask anyone who has ever made a picture frame how difficult it is to make sure that all four corner seams are closed up correctly. Shooting board anyone? So, with all of THAT in mind, the woodworker should select the quality of tool that they need for the nature of their work. Fine inlay and veneer needs accuracy to that .001 level; as your fingers can feel the edges/ridges when things are not flush. On the other hand, a shop bench drawer can probably be out of square 1.5º and not really cause a problem. Pick the tool calibration needed for the work at hand, and remember that ALL of these are probably not accurate enough for truly precise aerospace machine shop work. It's all relative!
Look at a Rockler catalog---the whole thing is based on a manufactured need for precision--to the average garage shop tinkerer it means spending a chunk of change for stuff to hang on the wall. To me what really is important is the alignment of my table saw blade. My late father's 70 year old squares are confirmed by my recently bought (for model airplane wing rib alignment) machinist squares. I looked at the Woodpecker stuff and thought it was ridiculously overpriced.
One other factor is the material we use, wood moves, it expands and contracts. I have seen this for years on forums, people boasting about cutting to 1/1000th of an inch, forgetting that their wood can expand 1/8th of an inch across a table top or shelf over night,
I classify myself as a woodworking hobbyist since I've never made a dime off of the stuff I've built over the last 50 years. My first power tool was a Montgomery Wards 10" Radial Arm Saw I bought back in 1972. This machine became the backbone for most of my wood working from the early 70's to about the mid 90's. I now use a 10" Sears Craftsman sliding miter saw for most of the stuff I do these days. I use a 1974, 6" inch, vintage Sears Craftsman jointer to true-up my boards. I purchased this when I had to build cabinets for my kitchen back in 1974 .... the jointer wasn't vintage when I bought it.... but after all this time ... we both fall into the vintage category. Regarding my layout tools I own an Imperial tri square that I've used for years. I didn't realize it wasn't quite square until I bought a Starrett 6" combination square and compared the two..... which means I had to buy yet a third square to verify the accuracy of the Imperial and the Starrett.... I now buy Starrett tools.... I also buy PEC seconds when needed and available. I've built a ton of stuff using tools that fall into the 'Not for Snobs' category. All of my projects have held up very well over time.... by the way, I still use my imperial tri square because it has a steel blade and never worn down after all these years. Mark Bell
I'm on disability because of a ridiculous number of back surgeries. I've been woodworking for the past 8 years and I just recently got a thickness planer. Second hand I might add. All my tools including measuring have all come from Harbor Freight, Lowe's, Home Depot or Amazon. I'm sure Woodpeckers brand is nice and I'm sure I would agree they have amazing detail. Do I believe spending that much money on a tool would make me a better woodworker ABSOLUTELY NOT! In my biased decision I have put out quality work with the tools I own. My experience does not have anything to do with how accurate or how much detail is in a product, but more so my knowledge in how to use the tool effectively. In fact I have not had one individual tell me they were never pleased what I made for them. I'm almost willing to guarantee if you talk to an older generation woodworker, he would tell you a tool is a tool. Just my honest opinion
The thing that always get me is one simple fact. Two words.....Wood Moves. Just how much do you need to fuss over 1/100 of an inch on a product that will move with seasonal relative humidity. That is not to say that accuracy doesn't matter, but if I cut the picece 10.254" instead of 10.25", who will ever know.
I agree with you presentation on how square is square. The main reasons I purchase woodpecker tools is accuracy and easy to read . Rough framing hoping the painter can make square or a diy project that actually looks great.
I actually used that new Bosch miter saw that was in the background. I made a simple flush cut jig for it and cut the miters. Thanks for watching. More to come.
Great video and lots of good information to take in. I’ve been a drummer for almost 50 years. I have owned many pro level drum sets and a collection of over 20 snare drums. 3 of the 4 sets I currently own I have BUILT MYSELF! I bought raw drum shells and did all the processes to make a functional drum. I did so, at the time, with all box store tool. Combination squares are very important to the process, and at the time I had only an Irwin square and a few rulers. I dare anyone to find any imperfections on my drums. A couple of years ago I took up woodworking and have built numerous furniture pieces, that’s when my problems began. I still do not own any measuring tools over $60, and I build some decent stuff. It’s all about skill. I still can’t justify $180 for a square, not to say that I won’t treat myself someday. Thanks!
Love your video, man. I've been woodworking for more than 30 years and I still only consider myself "pretty good." You are absolutely spot-on right when you say the only thing that matters is the ability to cut or drill accurately. I own a number of squares of various types, but honestly the ones I use 99 percent of the time are a six inch machinist square, a six inch Starrett combination square and a tape measure. As for Woodpeckers, I don't believe anything they claim and I don't buy from them any more.
I've been looking at Woodpecker products for years and never bought one for two reasons: 1. Their cost 2. The accuracy they claim is simply nuts when it comes to woodworking. Were not making precision Swiss watches we're making tables, chairs, boxes, toys etc. etc. etc. Fine accuracy is generally mandatory for metalwork but not woodworking.
Well stated! I use Empire brand speed squares (6" and 12") and they are extremely accurate after I flattened them on sandpaper glued on a sheet of glass. I've used them for years. Woodpeckers is absurdly overpriced. I also have machinist squares which are also extremely accurate. For everything I have about $100 invested.
I'm a pure hobby woodworker. While I aim to be as accurate as possible I actually find that more important than the accuracy is the consistency therefore I do like the squares with marking holes. Just to be clear when I say accuracy I do want my 90 degree angles to be a 100% accurate, but if if a drawer is 10 inches wide or 10.005 inches wider does not really matter in my opinion.
That's a good point. You are referring to what the woodworking community refers to as RELATIVE MEASURING. Don't know if you've ever heard that or not. It's a good topic that I will be discussing in future videos. Thanks for watching and commenting. I hope that you enjoyed the video.
I spent 30 years in aviation and areospace. You know, things that fly. Accuracy, .005. I also built many homes, cabinets, furniture and so on. It's not the tool, it's how you use it.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks aviation is surprisingly lenient because things have to move under varying temperature conditions, ultra tight tolerance wouldn't matter in a lot of cases.. plus when you add in fasteners etc, things drift a bit. Oddly enough, I work in toys and routinely fight with tolerances down to 0.0002" (and that's TIR on rotating parts, which is just nuts). I literally started woodworking to get a break from tight tolerances.
Nice video!! I own a few igaging products. They make GREAT stuff. I also own a few Woodpecker tools mainly because I like that they are made in the USA which is probably why they have a higher cost. Another TH-camr over at "Hooked On Wood" has a series of reviews called "China Tools". He reviews a bunch of tools made in China that are inexpensive and as accurate as their more expensive counter parts.
I do cabinetry and furniture making and would NEVER consider a speed square for any of that. For carpentry, well that is different which is what is was originally designed for. I use Starrett combination and trysquares. I have a 12in and 6in combination squares. I also have a 24in blade for my 12in combination square. All of my squares will nest inside of each other without any light visible. FWIW L S Starrett tools are designed for engineering and machining applications so a little more accurate than required for woodwork but there is never any doubt. Plus they will likely outlive me.
Very nice video…! You are right …it is like fishing… some stuff is to catch fish… other is to catch “fisherman”… The golden sentence … matters how you cut,…. True…! Thanks for sharing!😊
I love that way of thinking....fish and fisherman. That's a great way to put it and you are correct. Thank you for commenting and I'm glad that you liked the video.
I know...lol. That's NOT the only mistake I made. I also said, " Lumber and Regular Wood". I meant to say PLYWOOD...lol..... I'm glad that you liked the video. and thank you for subscribing. I have a lot of new content on the way.
Nice to see someone else hasn't drunk the kool-aide. Woodpeckers is priced SO high to me that I can buy a tool instead for all that cost! Agree 100% with the machinist's square - absolutely essential.. and inexpensive. A fraction of the price. Absolutely correct that you can't cut as accurate as you can measure. We all know plywood ain't square, and that timber has lots of runout, flatness issues, and such. I know when I tolerance a job for a customer, I make it as high as +/- .125", and the tightest I will spec is +/-.0625". The only reason I need squareness is in how things fit together, so that the item will sit reasonably flat and perpedicular on a surface when completed. But, trying to maintain sheet metal accuracy in wood seems crazy to me.. and I've done both for more than 45 years. Thanks for a great commonsense video!
With several sets of digital calipers I imagined I was encountering poor quality because, by the way I was using them, each needed to be reset to zero when the jaws were closed. That was true for the $20 no-names and the $140 Mitutoyos. Then I learned to wipe the contact surfaces when I closed the jaws and found they all returned to zero and gave identical measurements throughout their range of measurement. In fact, I came to prefer the no-names for some woodshop applications because they'd toggle through fractional inches as well as metric and decimal imperial. The fractional inch capability is extremely useful for selecting drill bits for pilot holes.
I'm so glad I came across your video. While I may not be frugal, I also refuse to buy something just because it's supposed to be so much better, when in reality it isn't. Good job!
I have a bunch of china made "red" layout tools that fit that same narrative, but got them for a fraction of the cost.... wasting money is one thing outright knowingly overpaying is foolish
@@daveerickson5313 i've tried some of the knock off red layout tools and they were no where near close to square, and we're not talking the thickness of a single sheet of paper but more like 1/16 to 1/8 over a 8" span, that gets pretty noticeable on a 30-36" high cabinet....There may be some good knock offs out there but the ones i've tried when trued up against WP, the old bridge city or machinist squares were definitely not accurate
Well said for your post here. I am a machinist with set-up and high precision experience. It come naturally to me as I am a control freak. That being said EVER situation must be considered individually as to what is needed and what is reasonable or even possible. With precision metalwork one of the more important parts of your tolerance measurements is the temperature of the metals and also the measuring device when your measurements are made. I am leaning more about working with wood but mostly just need time and mistakes till the knowledge and skills are developed. (tooling is not craftsmanship)
I build boxes that my friends and family gush over using layout and measuring tools purchased at the big box stores. Sure, I've bought a few high end items from my local Woodcraft store but they really didn't improve my work that much. The main point, as was noted in the video, is the accuracy of set up on your power tools... mine mainly being a $300 DeWalt table saw. I've spent long periods of time trying to "dial in" that blade to a perfect 90 or 45 (hasn't everyone at some point?). Regarding the 45, once I learned to cut one piece on the left side of the blade and the other on the right to make my miters for my box corners, it really didn't matter that much. 44.5 and 45.5 still add up to 90.
I agree with David's comment below. I've seen and used that angle trick when I could get my jointer dialed in to a perfect 90. I labeled each side of the wood with the A/B trick and flipped the wood. I have never thought about the same concept on mitered joints. That's pretty genius. Nice trick
As a retiring tool maker for 40+ years I'm just getting in to wood working so wile I have a world of learning to do with woodworking I use a lot of my machinist tools to do my wood work I know a woodworker tell me you should be using this or that it's faster or better but these are the tools I know how to use and I'm pretty proficient with them and I will put the accuracy of them against woodpecker tools all day.
I love your comment and I absolutely agree with you. Use the tools that serve you well and that you are confident with. There is nothing wrong with that. Machinist squares are my new best friend and I like the lower cost. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad you liked the video.
I was a CNC machine installer in the early 80’s today, I still use my calipers for measurements. Yes wood moves over a short period of time however the more accurate you can make the cut the better your project will be. 😁🛫
Machinist square / measurement tools are far more accurate than any wood working tools. LOL. Wood working community has been adapting machinist tools such as 1-2-3 blocks. They will never ever need that kind of accuracy for woodworking, but 1-2-3 blocks are dirt cheap for it's insane accuracy.
I never automatically believe a company when they say they do something, they can stretch the truth quite a bit without being called out. I only hold partial weight of someone saying "it's totally off" as there is a high chance of human error and/or stupidity, unless they prove it. I was really hoping on seeing actual testing here. a feeler gauge that has been double checked by a caliper or better yet multiple calipers. I bought a professional grade self leveling laser level (few hundred dollars new), set it up, tuned it close as I could, then turned it on and found that from top of the door to the bottom of a door it looked way off. so tested it by tying a string on to a nail and a nut at the bottom. yeah, I went old school on it. the door was crooked but so was the laser, it was about an inch and a half- inch and three quarters off. even with full adjustment to the unit I couldn't get it "level" until I shortened one sliding leg... by a LOT. I got a more accurate reading from an app on my phone sadly.
You asked for a better method to do this particular thing. Get 2 of the squares and put them in place and use your calipers to measure between them. No marking required and you are absolutely measuring to the square. That being said, we frame, we trim, and we build cabinets. We use the same squares and the same tape measures, and the same saws. Of all the professional cabinet shops that I know, which only do cabinets, they all use the same tools we use for framing, trim, and cabinets. Save your money. As you pointed out, the pencil line is anywhere from 0.09 to 0.05. How accurate is your saw, and how straight can you cut? No one will ever say, that cabinet you built, I'm sending it back because it's 1/16 out, much less.004 out.
I can't tell you how many times I was close clicking that "Buy" button at the woodpecker site. I agree with you. They're TOO damned expensive. I have a machinist's square I've had, and have sweared by, for the last 25 years. Grreat video ... I'll be back.
At the end of the day, most people would look at a hand made item and couldn't tell you if it's accurate unless it was made by a knuckle dagger or you dropped such a bollock that it was obvious to the eye. If it looks good, it's accurate
I'm embarrassed to say my speed square is from Harbor Freight. LOL Yeah, it's bad. But you know what, for what I use it for, it works just fine. Now, I am also a model builder and for that, it's a machinist square all the way, and of course, my Vernier caliper. Not digital because it's so hard to find a digital that's affordable and accurate as the Vernier with repeatable results. Thanks for this video, you hit the nail on the head. Wait... is there a precision hammer i can buy?
The price I see on some tools steers me right away. I have some that I have paid a good amount of money for. You get what you pay for, for the most part. Woodworking doesn't require the accuracy of a plastic injection mold or a progressive die.
You can buy a set of high quality drafting squares really cheap. I find myself using mine quite often, especially for machine setups and verifying cuts. Well worth having in the shop!
Well the whole WP discussion is quite a doozie indeed. Great marketing company… accurate yes since they use CNC but lots of issues on value. When shipping costs exceed item costs for continental delivery there’s an obvious problem. I’ve also found their products to be more of show pieces than anything else. Wall hanging like it’s a picture is a bit much . A lot WP stuff is aluminum and very lightweight so I guess the wall mounts are to protect them since the products are pretty delicate. As for accuracy in woodworking… no woodworking requires machinist accuracy and as mentioned the saws etc are not capable of that level of accuracy. A 32nd or 64th of an inch is pretty much the limit for wooden furniture making. I’ve taken a WP square against a “cheap”Milwaukee and found the markings identical. As for igaging They’ve been around for eons… China based… sold at Lee Valley. Well made… realistically priced. The few WP products I’ve purchased I found to be a bit too delicate … almost cheap feeling. Great marketing… poor value… ludicrous shipping costs.
Another (imho) relevant question is How much accuracy do you actually need in woodworking? Angular deviation might be relevant, when it comes to really large squares, almost nobody uses, anyways. Woood itself isn't very accurate. Thermal expansion, wood and air humidity are always factors to consider, when dealing with wood.
So many people have added in the fact that wood breathes, moves, expands, contracts, etc.... I really wish that I had thought about that while filming. I appreciate your comments. Thanks for watching....And YES...how much accuracy do you REALLY need
Woodworkers also forget that the medium they use i.e. wood is imperfect itself. It moves constant with humidity changes. So spending top dollar on precision measure and marking tools is nothing more than a case of 'keeping up with the jones'. Sure you need a good set of machinist spares to set up your tools so that you have a fighting chance of making an accurate just in your imperfect medium.
Accuracy is not about the tool, but the finished product. Assuming one guarantees the other is misleading. It still needs the skill of the craftsman using it. All the increased accuracy is wasted on a fat finger, working with poor lighting or having a bad day. These conditions are more about accuracy than the tool. As the saying goes, sign of a poor craftsman that blames his tools.
Accuracy itself is a "combination square! It is combines many aspects -measuring, maavrking, cutg, tools, tool thickness, skill level of the carpenter, quality of blade, available space, workrate, light available! Time of day, tiredness, speed, deadlines, et al! Buy the best tools you can afford, learn how to use them, and take your time!!! At every step you are " working for a finished product!" Everything improves with patience and understanding! The moral of the story is very very clear - A silk purse is never made from a sow's ear!
So, I should spend money on tools to mark my cuts with according to my skill at making those cuts. Fair enough. I see a ruler on the Walmart website for $1.00 that should get the job done. And there is a 12 pack of #2 pencils for less than that. Excellent. I'm in good shape now. You just saved me a fortune.
I can't tell for sure if you're being facetious but I have made tons of cool stuff using tools exactly like you mentioned. Are they true down to .0000001"? Absolutely not! But they still look just fine.
In many cases, I think that both of you are correct. For many many years, I used rulers and squares from harbor freight, walmart, etc... I really don't think that there is anything wrong with people using those products if they are happy with the outcome of their projects. I've built some nice items using cheaper tools and no one knew the difference. Overall, I just wanted to step up my own skills and see if I could improve. I appreciate you watching and commenting.
@@CeeJayThe13th A little facetious, but maybe not a lot. That would probably be a good way to go given my woodworking skills. O.K. Maybe I'll shell out $2 for the better ruler. But you get the idea. And yeah, you can still produce decent looking stuff if you aren't very skilled. You just have to work within your skill set. For instance, my brother and I updated my entertainment center to accept a larger television. From 32" to 55". I did some demo work pulling out shelves and supports, he cut a piece of plywood to replace the old cardboard backing, and I painted the inside with flat black paint to match the color of the rest of it. It looks like a pro job. Most people have no idea that it was even altered. And I'm a clumsy autistic person who is afraid to use power tools for fear of injuring someone. So, I recruited the help of my brother and his hand-held saw. And that was the most sophisticated tool we used. I could have done it with hand tools if need be. Were precise cuts needed? No. Just cuts in the neighborhood of being accurate would be good enough. I think we either used a ruler or piece of wood to make our marks on that project. Whatever straight edge we had available at the time.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks If you are fricken Norm Abram then spend some money on some decent tools. But if you are some goofball who barely knows how to use a saw, you don't need to. Worry about learning how to swing a hammer without killing anyone and go from there. That's like a guy who doesn't know how to play pool spending top dollar on a custom pool cue. Just use the house stick, stupid.
Accuracy in woodworking can be broken down into how few steps may include human error. The process of making an accurate cut involves the fewest chance for human error. This is why CNCs have become popular in woodworking
I switched to buying Woodpeckers to replace my starter tools because they're always accurate and if I don't like it or it's not working the way I expected, they accept returns ZERO questions asked. I have a few great tools in the budget area, like iGaging but anything critical I don't cut corners. That said, I find relative dimensioning and using the tool between my ears goes a lot farther than anything else 🤣
That's pretty cool that they accept returns like that. I know several companies that don't offer that. Woodpeckers really is a great company. And I'm glad you mentioned relative dimensioning. I have a video coming out about that very topic. Thank you for comments.
the square can be dead accurate, but when you add your pencil line and your sawing line, you are already way off being dead accurate. In short, usually the problem is us and not the tool...
I use a machinist square to calibrate my machines and it makes a big difference when cutting long boards on my table saw or when jointing boards. I agree that the Woodpecker squares are far more accurate than needed.
Time served 5 year apprentice carpenter and joiner. Never used a marking knife; pencils only. Very rarely have off joints. Same Marples 7” try square since 1969. No problems other than my errors. Same Rabone Chesterman combination square - no problems bar my errors. Point - look at reasonable priced, accurate enough, tools. Emperor’s clothes comes to mind regarding Woodpeckers, Bridge City, Incra, Lie Nielsen, Veritas! Tip - practice, practice, practice leaving the line in...
You are missing an important point: these tools are (also) used to calibrate machinery. And dont even try to convince me that your cheap square can level a jointer.
@@AlainPilon No machinery used. I use a portable router, plane, and the rest are cordless. Regarding machinery, I remember using straight edges by Starrett (shop owned) but I used Rabone Chesterman, and Stabilla to check but not often.
Is cost for Accuracy or Consistency? If the Grizzley squares are DIN 875-1 as they claim then there shouldn't be, as you mentioned, "mixed reviews". Maybe price isn't a reflection of accuracy but the labor for additional quality assurance to ensure consistency? I noticed the same issue of mixed reviews with IGaging as well. Because you received one that is square doesn't mean I will. Of course, it's also possible that it's not a mfg issue but fakes being sold on Amazon.
Measuring accuracy to 0.005" is futile when the material you're working with swells and contracts by twice that just with changes in humidity :)
You took the word out of my mouth 👍
Bingo. We’re working wood, not metal.
Square and parallel cuts can never be too accurate. Lose four thou on every board and your glued up panel gets wonky very fast.
Bingo! It’s not your tools that determine the quality of your work, it’s your ability to use them in a way that produces a quality result. Very good video!
Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad that you enjoyed
I've been a finish carpenter for 40 years now. Marking the line properly is important, but actually cutting it on the line proves to be way more difficult than the accurracy of the actual line. If you need to make a bunch of cuts at a consistent length, a stop is the way to go. And then be very careful when butting things to the stop so as not to knock it out of whack. Personally, I don't think that a $200 square is gonna make me me a more accurate woodworker. The techniques and experience I've gained over the years far outweighs the price and performance of high end tools. What's most important tools in general is that they can hold their settings once set to a accurate 90 degree for instance. One can perform some very beautiful and accurate work with modest tools if he can learn the limitations of the tool and work around them. A $3000 table saw will not make a novice into a pro, but it just might allow a pro to produce accurate work more quickly and efficiently.
Preach!!! As a newbie wood worker I was constantly confused at why my “perfectly” measured and marked dimensions resulted in huge gaps and wonky surfaces. Must be my crummy tools… little did I realise I wasn’t using the same reference edges, same tape or rule or was cutting on either side of the line. Spent hours researching “crows feet”, buying ridiculously thin pencils. Still daylight between joins. Takes a lot of practice to put a piece of wood against a blade and cut straight. Most often than not the measuring tool and the cutting tool are perfectly adequate, the person holding those two however is what makes the difference
Great Video. I am a retired precision machinist and I can tell you there are numerous ways to check a squares accuracy. The easiest way I have found is to select a flat surface (your table saw surface works quite well) and face a known accurate square (fixed Machinist Square or 1-2-3 block) against the other, measure the gap between the two squares (feeler gages work well, 1 degree equals approx .017 per inch). I agree it only matters how accurate the tool is, when setting up your machinery. 1-2-3 blocks are almost a necessity in your shop, they are extremely accurate and serve as a perfect 90 degree standard.
When I first started woodworking, I followed a lot of influencers who had Woodpecker products and, like most n00bs, I, too, dreamt of the day I could purchase them. I own precisely one Woodpecker product and it's their centering ruler...which I barely use. On the other hand I do own two combination squares and a double square. One is a Starrett combination square, one from PEC and my double square is also from PEC. Seeing your video brought back some memories and thoughts: my PEC cost me less than $40 each. My Starrett is the most expensive one but I use that for calibrating my table saw. For layouts, my PEC squares do well. I found that it doesn't matter how accurate my squares are if me cutting with a handsaw is less than stellar. I have three squares I use for calibrating tools and for making jigs which help me not just accurate but repeatable.
I was 100% sure I would be a better woodworker with the red tools, so I bought a lot of them - turns out skill is not based on how much you spend on your tools. This video is oh so right on!
Great video! The thumbnail totally pulled me in and now I'm off to check out more of your content!
Thank you for the kind words and for commenting. I'm glad that you liked the video.
I am writing this on a desk made by my granddad in 1921. The dovetails are still tight, leg mortise and tenons solid, and the draws still glide with ease. I inherited his tools- planes, chisels. saws, winding sticks, and bits and brace. Measuring devices- 3 dividers, unmarked straight edges, winding sticks , string, plumb bob and a wooden handle home made square (no measurements).
Not sure if he knew the knew the difference between .01 or .0005" but know he would find it crazy to spend more on shipping and measuring tools than investing that money into good quality wood. I have resisted the urge to buy red tools but have poured money into a lot of other somewhat less expensive stuff.
Results, my mortise, tenons and dovetails are far from picturesque. As the old saying goes, it isn't the tool but the man (or person to be pc) behind it that makes all the difference.
Two comments from a retired Physics professor who now enjoys woodworking. 1. Everything you said about expensive red tools is true, although they do offer pretty wall mounts. However, the accuracy of measurement (or lack of) is dependent upon how much is “added” to the error. I recently was in charge of a church project which had us building a handicap ramp. I had to show my helpers why we needed to check the square of the 4’ deck boards often so we wouldn’t end up with a fan. After 5 boards it became obvious. 2. Please refer to another TH-cam video entitled “Adam Savage’s Epiphany on the Science of Measurement”. At the end of the 45 minute video, you will know why there is absolutely no exact measurement which can be done by human hands or man made instruments. To the point… everything is an estimate. We have 360 degrees in a circle because we KNEW that it took 360 days for the Earth to go around the Sun. Opps.
One thing to remember about Woodpecker and the TH-cam world.....They give content builders their product to advertise the name. If 90% of the TH-cam builders had to pay the Woodpecker price most wouldn't. But the average user watching assumes the "need" of a $200.00 square. I always relate back to the fact that Stradivarius built violins with hand tools in the 1700's...fairly sure they didn't have anything down to ten-thousands of an inch.
Yup, to me this falls under the realm of understanding the material you are working with. You can be very accurate in woodworking, and have to be for some things being made, but wood will always be a "living" material that moves, twists, grows/shrinks out of our control. Even the machine only woodworkers will only be so accurate compared to someone working with metal in a machine shop.
This comes up all the time in hand tool only communities with people wanting to be as accurate as a machine, it is possible but not worth that effort for many jobs. "flat enough" and and "square enough" are things that need to be learned and understood, especially when doing things by eye and hand.
Really enjoyed the content. Been using 30 year old machine squares, and 123 blocks for years in my wood working. You are so correct in stating it is the cut....
At the end of the day, can you see gaps in your joiner? If your Swanson speed square or you 30 year old Craftsman combination square leaves no gaps in your joinery then do you need to be more accurate? If they do step it up. If not, bring on the next measure, mark and cut item. Frankly you can build super tight things with story sticks and and a marking knife. Are things like Woodpecker and Incra more accurate? Yes. Does it matter? Your call.
I 100% agree and I love the way you worded it. I stepped up to the I-Gaging because I really wanted to get away from basic framing speed squares. I think my new selection will be just fine and it didn't break the bank. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks There was this crazy white haired old guy who said, “Find the simplest solution that works and no simpler” or somthing like that. Makes perfect sense when you put it in any context including woodworking. Wait, I remember it was Albert Einstien. 😉
@@lincolndickerson1293 Ha ha. I just came from watching a video about Gemeral Theory of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, and Gravity. Measurement, location, reality - boil down to infinitesimal accuracy of woodwork measurement rendered of doubtful relevance in face of wood movement with moisture, heat, compression against material it's fixed to, etc.
I've managed both construction and fine furniture woodwork with basic set squares for 50 years. Are they true 90⁰ to 1000th degree, No. Should I replace them? Possibly. Cabinets in old UK housing stock need an element of plasticity so dead square looks wrong
I agree completely. It also depends on what your building, even if you don't include building framing. On top of that, wood changes based on humidity and temperature, so it won't matter in the end. Also, paper is generally 0.002 thick, and unless you're a very experienced machinist, you won't get past 0.001 accuracy, and it doesn't matter for a lot of parts. Any of those squares work fine, although I've found some older abused ones especially that disagree with each other by 1/4" or more, and that does matter. Beyond that, buy the quality you can afford and spend money elsewhere
I have a number of woodpecker, starret, iguaging and other brands of layout tools and I will say that woodpecker and Starret tools add nice creature comfort features to their tools that other cheaper brands either don’t have or imitate badly. Things like engraved lettering and low glare metal that is easy to read under bright shop lights, positive locks that make it’s easy to trust the setting of a tool even after it’s been in your apron for a few days, cutouts for the kinds of marking tools woodworkers keep in their shop and others. I am not saying I want to replace all my tools with a wall of red but for a few what I consider cleverly implemented items they are nice to have.
It's not the accuracy of the line, but the accuracy of the cut. Words to live by.
So, I'm in love with accuracy. I have many extremely precise references, and I love them all, with my metal working projects .0001" is a very tiny slice. When I first started woodworking I was passionate about "accuracy". Today, I know that far more important is to plan and cut your pieces using a reliable reference or jig. That along with wood being organic, it moves, anything you do, no matter how accurate, it's temporary. For example, if you need to cut drawers? Cut all the sides to width at the same fence setting. Legs? Set a saw stop and cut them all to length. Exactly to your point, the mark means nothing: it doesn't guide the chop saw blade to that super-precise square cut.
For folks such as myself, accurate marks do help a lot. I use strictly hand tools. It’s sort of like therapy for me.
Hi "Angry." A good, poignant video regarding the accuracy of tools. I've compared many of my woodworking tools to my machinist tools, and for wood, the woodworking tools exceed my standards (and ability) for cutting and assembling. You hit the nail on the head when you said, "The ability to cut." Now sink the nail by adding, "The ability to assemble." As an experiment once, I 'routed' some wood on my milling machine, and then duplicated my efforts on my homemade router table. You can't tell the difference.
I like your show, buddy..., you earned my subscription.
Making a machinist's toolbox, I used my milling machine for the drawer end joints- they were more accurate than my router table- and a lot faster to 'dial in' the numbers (by DRO). Even though I have fitted a DRO to my router table...
Only a few minutes in, but man your impressions were spot on. We've all met someone that sounds and looks exactly like that. 😂
I just thought that it would be some good slight humor. Thanks for watching
@@angrybeaverwoodworks Haha for sure it certainly was, really quality video overall. I hope your channel grows well! You've def earned a new subscriber. 👍🏻
@@imover9999 Thank you. I'll work hard and hopefully I won't let you down. More to come
Years ago I apprenticed as a tile setter, working on very high end remodeling jobs. As the guy cutting the tile that the master tile setter marked, I quickly learned that I needed to know if I should make the cut ON the line, to the LEFT of the line, or to the RIGHT of the line he made. Sometimes when fine adjustments to my cuts needed to be made he would ask me to recut the tile and only take off material equal to half the thickness of the saw blade. Context in defining accuracy is where it's at. Good video!
It's wood. Measure it's thickness and I guarantee a week later it will be more than 0.004 different. If you want that level of accuracy use metal and get a high end laser CNC. Otherwise it's simply paying for ignorance (not understanding that wood changes depending on humidity and temp) or bragging rights.
Excellent video.
You've got to be probably the 100th person to point out humidity, temp, wood movement, etc... I really wish that I had thought about that while filming. It really should be part of this video. Thanks for commenting
@@angrybeaverwoodworks Thanks for making an excellent video. It seems to be a small conversation piece at work :D
Very entertaining! As you say, it is not the marking out, it is the cutting. The most accurate work is never marked out- the machine tools set the precision to be achieved.
Most of all, thank you for introducing tolerance to woodworkers. As a sometime machinist, I rail on many channels at the use of 'perfectly square', exactly', 'spot on' and other superlatives. Everything, of course, has a tolerance and keeping that in focus always benefits what is (and can be) achieved.
Accuracy costs (both in time and equipment) exponentially as one gets closer - and wood moves. Getting a value more accurate than it will have moved to next week is pointless. Tolerance therefore widens- engineering drawings have marked tolerances on all critical dimensions, wood drawings not- but then much of woodwork is still in the hand fitting era.
So true. Great video.
I know If I make a cutting board or piece of shop furniture and it’s off by 0.005. I just put it in the burn pile.
Marketing, marketing, marketing.
Use your brains, unless you've got money burning a hole in your pockets.
Too many variables to maintain that tolerance all the way to the end product. No one has time for this level of work.
Excellent video.
I think that you are correct. There ARE many variables. I appreciate the kind words. I'm glad that you enjoyed it.
I have build hundreds of frames, and hundreds of square panels for artwork, none of them have ever been less than, or closer than 1/16" to 1/32" accurate. I can't tell. Nobody else can tell. I have been told that my work is amazingly accurate and precise, too. (Told by a framing shop, btw.) At those tolerances, glue squeeze out make more of a difference in square than the cut!
Most woodworking projects are done with multiple pieces having the same measurement. This means that the best, most accurate measuring tool is a stop block: a chunk of cast-off wood.
Best way to cut everything equally wrong. 😉👍
I picked up woodworking again after retiring from a career in metrology - the science and practice of measurement. In my view, the precision requierd from the measurement tool depends on properties of the material being measured. In this case we are talking about wood. It is well known that most species of wood expand and contract due to seasonal changes in humidity. In most species, those seasonal changes are considerably greater than the specifications of the measuring tool being used. Also, metal measuring tools change dimensionally with changes in temperature. I generally don't obsess about the measurement tools, because I know the wood movement is greater. On the other hand, I do control the enviroment in my shop as well as I can afford to. Not as tight as a calibration laboratory, but as stable as I can make it. That will minimize the temperature effects on the tools, and the humidity effects on the wood.
I have a variety of precision dimensionsl measuring tools, acqiured over the span of thirty years or more, from a variety of suppliers ranging from precision tool manufacters to Harbor Freight and thrift stores. Most important is a * sharp single-bevel marking knife * to make layout lines on wood. Technically it it not a "measuring" tool, but it is ESSENTIAL for making the layout lines on wood. A pen or pencil is fine for notes, but not for knowing precisely where to cut.
Micrometer, dial caliper, digital caliper, thickness gauge, a set of metal precision dimensional blocks, a pair of steel 1-2-3 blocks, a granite surface plate, dial indicator and base, a set of three machinist squares (from iGaging), precision straightedges in three lengths, several spirit levels in lengths from 6 inches to eight feet, feeler gages, digital thermometer (*** a table of emissivity values for materials you work with is essential for this!), a digital tachometer, an anemometer, a variety of steel rules, a Woodpeckers "Mini Square" (rarely used!), three sizes of speed squares, and recently acquired an excellent Starret combination square with a protractor head from a retirement/moving sale. I also have a set of machinists drill bits in 1/64 inch increments - the shank end of those can also be used as precision measuring tools. Most of these inherently have more more precision than I consider "necessary" for woodworking.
A number of these tools are ones I do not actually use on wood. Instead, I use them to verify the precision and accuracy of tools that ARE used on wood. For example, to verify that a square is actually square, or that the blade of my radial arm saw is actually square to the table and/or fence. Also, all of my "precision" measuring tools are kept in one drawer, and most of the others in a different drawer - and a small number hang on the wall.
Finally there are the plastic right-angle blocks used to align & clamp boxes & cabinets. They are not strictly "measuring tools", but they are used during assembly, so I use a machinist square to verify them before use, as well.
Key for me is to know what to realistically expect from a measuring tool, and periodically compare to a "better" tool. After all, for thousands of years woodworkers did not have access to the type and variety of dimensional measuring tools available now, and many turned out work that even today are considered examples of excellence.
You made a good point about a marking knife being more accurate than a pencil.
There's probably been more than a few individuals to make the mistake of using their marking knife along their expensive aluminum Woodpecker square.
It would do us good to remember that some of the finest furniture ever built was made with hand tools, laid out with wooden rules and cut with hand saws, planes and chisels. Moreover, wood, and even steel, "breath" or move with temperature, humidity, and time. To my limited knowledge, I doubt that anyone ever checked to see if the sides of King Edward's writing desk were parallel to one thousandth of an inch. We should strive for accuracy but not obsess. This is supposed to be fun.
Good point. I think that they may have almost custom fit a lot of pieces to make up for a lack of laser-like precision. However they did it they did it without modern tools. I am always blown away by the craftsmanship of old furniture.
If it doesn't fly like a helicopter, airplane or jet... it doesn't need to be to that precise with measurements.
Starrett machinest squares from the flea market. 5 bucks and will be more accurate than a woodworker would ever need.
100-Fing-%
You had me hooked at not going along with overpriced fads
You Sir, are a blast...and right on the money! Dad used to say, "What the hell's the point of spending all that time measuring, if you aren't gonna cut on the $^$&%&* line anyway?" or my old boss: "they measure with a micrometer, mark with a grease pencil, then cut it with an axe". Awesome video!
That's funny... I had an old boss like that as well. His phrase was always, " Throw bout 5 more nails in there, it'll be fine. Looks good from back here." I appreciate you watching and commenting. More to come.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks 🤣
My Bible says get wisdom: that translates to common sense: without THAT you are a FOOL! There are a miriad of smart, educated fools out there, which tool makers COUNT ON to buy their EXTREMELY accurate tools, to mark with a grease pencil, then cut with an axe, or chainsaw! Yes, I can see their smerk, as they say(in the board room), well boys, they paid a thousand for our new pencil, accurate to a millionth of a micron; lets just up the anty till the sales die down...he, he, ha,ha,snicker, snicker... I can take a handsaw, and use the corner of a cardboard box from my recycle bin, and a dull pencil, and build a desk with pigeon holes.
Thank you for putting out good info so a weekend woodworking/home improvement hobbist like me can make informed decisions.
Keep in mind that the 99.9% of the non woodworker people won't even notice how accurate you were. So unless you're making a gift to another woodworker, you don't have to worry that much. And I mean worrying about .004 .001 or whatever.
Controversial Opinion, with a bit of personal experience...
I use Marking and Layout Tools from Harbor Freight. All of my squares, I bought at the same time. I brought a 1X6 piece of Purple Heart (its what I had at the time) and a marking knife, into the store. I used those to check all of the squares i wanted, and only bought the ones that were perfect.
My work is good. Not perfect, but there aren't many people that could point out any flaws.
Price doesn't necessarily mean Quality.
You bring up a lot of great points when it comes to accuracy of your tools. Let's be honest though...Woodpeckers buyers aren't always buying for accuracy, but more for job specific tools. I don't own a lot of them, but I own a few. My DelVe square is great at its primary purpose...laying out mortise and tenons. If you're laying out a ton of them, the design of that tool is perfect. However, I think there might be a lot of buyers that buy just for the brand and the influencers they follow.
Regardless, great video and great info!
Agreed, the few woodpecker tools I have are specialty tools. I plan to buy a couple more. I wouldn't spend that kind of money on the majority of tools but some stuff is worth it to me.
yeah the Delve square has a lot of neat/nice features on it that make it very convenient and improve efficiency. The speed squares I own lack those additional features.
My approach is two fold. 1) you can do the “score a line and flip” test to check for true square on a cheaper carpentry square…if it is a bit out you can true up the outside angle with wet and dry until it is bang on correct….This can make a useable silk purse from a Chinesium pigs ear. OR -- 2) Buy one, super accurate square, like a Woodpeckers tri-square and use that only for joints that require such accuracy.
To this end I have a 300mm Woodpeckers square for if I really need it (a luxury purchase at US 140 bucks) …and a good brand name (DeWalt)Rafter Square that is close enough, for everything else. BTW super accuracy on a tiny square is pointless…the angle of error multiplies with distance…and since you only sight the square by eye with its limited resolution anyway….how would you know if your saw blade was off by half the width of the finest pencil anyways?
I like the commentary, very good.
Just a little comment from a recently retired tradesman. Protect you tools! Regarding precision equipment: Drop it, bump it, etc. It may need to be repaired and/or recalibrate. In this case we're you taught to correct the variance of your specific squares. I've done it for 40 years, and I won't try those tolerances without sending it to repair shops.
If I may suggest a better way to determine the accuracy of a speed square, machinist's square, etc.: Lay out the two parallel lines with a single bevel marking pen, as described in the video. But before doing so, lay down a piece of blue tape and then roller it into the surface as if you were trying to ensure a very nice plywood cut. After making the two cuts you believe to be parallel, remove the tape between the lines. The tape will make it far easier to see the edges of the lines. The next step is to ensure you actually measure across the parallel lines consistently. Lay the square against an adjacent side; it does not need to be perpendicular to the first side. but it does need to be straight. You can now use the arm of the square as a guide when using the calipers to compare two locations along the parallelogram. Otherwise, you may very well be adding errors to your investigation.
I am a DIYer but also an engineer so accuracy to me paramount when i build furniture (actually just helped my brother in law build his deck and he kept telling me measurements don’t need to be down to 1/16”). I’ve looked at woodpecker products and wanted then but i think that their price point is too high so I’ve sought out alternatives. There are many options at much better price points, i’ve recently come across another TH-cam page “hooked on wood” who has a series reviewing China tools, if you haven’t seen this you need to! I have bought several items and I’ll put them up against Wood pecker brand!
Great video. I have had the Igauge combo squares for over a year (12 and a 6 inch) . They are very good and way more accurate than my woodworking deserves. I got them at Lee Valley which sells some of the highest quality woodworking tools you can buy and the staff there recommended them.
Glad to hear that someone has been using them for awhile. And I'm glad to hear that they are serving you well. Thanks for commenting and thank you for the kind words.
You hit on the real key point towards the end. It's the accuracy of your cutting tools. Following from that point, determine what measuring tools (or cutting jigs) are needed to ensure the accuracy of your cutting tools. To ensure the accuracy of my cuts, I have a machinist square, and a digital tilt meter. For crosscuts, I have a miter guage and a Dubby sled. For planing, I have digital calipers. As for measuring, I use rules, a tape measure, or 1-2-3 blocks and setup bars. But generally, they don't have to be accurate, because after the initial cut, most everything is measured using relative dimensioning, or jigs.
You....like so many others have been talking about RELATIVE measuring. I wish that I had added that to the video. I think I could bring up that topic in some future videos. I honestly tend to use a lot of different jigs and sleds. I've been building new versions and upgrades to all of mine since I have revamped my shop. I appreciate you commenting and thank you for watching.
I agree with the angle you're approaching this topic from. I'm also tired of the Fancy Boys who all have the same tools displayed their walls. They all force feed their viewers with the same recommendations on tooling. Red squares, red clamps, red (and green) power tools, and god forbid you don't own the red labeled table saw. I've stopped watching 90% of them NOT because they want you to take the red pill, but more importantly their projects aren't that impressive. They all just regurgitate the same old things. And with all these fancy tools these fancy boys aren't really making fancy projects. Most of them are just mediocre to say the best. If you want to impress me show me what you can do, be creative with your projects not with your salesmanship skills. I've all but stopped posting my projects on social media mainly because I don't want my hobby to about likes or Instant gratification from people that I don't even know. I don't do woodworking to impress people or to make money, I do it as a form of meditation and relaxation. It's downright spiritual in many ways. I give away most of my work. My gratification comes from learning something new every time I finish a project. That's how I feel about the whole situation. I look forward to seeing more of your videos in the future, it's refreshing to hear someone with a different perspective. Take care.
YOU SIR......You are amazing and that has GOT to be one of the best comments I have ever read since creating my channel. I think that you may very well like the new video that I am currently working on because it touches on that very topic. But in honesty, I think that your comments here have just saved THAT video. I was having issues with outlining that topic, but you way you presented it here is PERFECT. And for the record, I hate the GREEN tools, Hate them with a passion. Thank you for this amazing comment and I hope that you stay tuned for some good future content.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks He sounds a little preachy to me. Too shrill.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks Thanks for hearing me out. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my reply. The comment sections on Boobtube and social media outlets can be a challenge. There's a fine line between being an over the top fan boy or being a demonic troll. It's frustrating when an "influencer/maker" doesn't have any capacity for critique. Not concerning how they film their content, or the opinions they give, those things are subjective. But rather concerning the project it self. It seems like the "Maker" community subscribes to this nonconfrontational, participation trophy mentality. Let's all make cute stickers and sell merchandise to promote "our brand" nonsense. Sounds like I'm becoming a negative Nancy or just a grumpy old man, but I think it's important to air these grievances every now and then. I look for to watching more of your content.
You speak the truth young man.
On the basis of all the TH-cam Makers that have sold out to Woodpeckers and by their popularity sold alot of product for them I ask myself this? How the he'll did I make a living for decades when all I had was a set of four steel engineers squares, a sliding bevel, a very accurate combination square, steel rules, an analogue vernier and a marking knife? Beats me how all those pieces I sold that were so inaccurate never just fell to pieces. Must have been good glue, which by the way is another complete nonsense in today's climate.
Woodpeckers are the woodworking equilivent of Apple.
Great video I hope it influences alot of people.
Now I'd to see a video on relative dimensioning as that is the best way to get consistency in any piece youmare making.
I bought my first woodpecker item and I can now dunk a basketball.
The proper way to test all the squares would be a cylindrical square, surface plate, feeler stock (down to .0005"), and prussian blue.
This is a good start, but there are further clarifications needed to really understand the issues.
First? Within .00XX OVER WHAT DISTANCE?! Just a number means nothing; there HAS to be a scale as well. If it's accurate to a thousandth over.... a THOUSANDTH, then that's not terribly helpful is it?
Second, how accurately you can dial in your tools is also a factor, but remember that some power tools are scary accurate... (I have a sliding table saw that holds .003" over 10.5 FEET...) so you CAN cut accurately, and hand tools count as well. Planes can easily take shavings well under the thickness of that piece of paper.
Finally, it's also important to understand the issue of the multiplicative error. If you're making a box, you don't need ONE 90º angle; you need FOUR. If each is off by a few thousandths over a short distance, you will easily see a gap when you put it all together at one of the corners. Ask anyone who has ever made a picture frame how difficult it is to make sure that all four corner seams are closed up correctly. Shooting board anyone?
So, with all of THAT in mind, the woodworker should select the quality of tool that they need for the nature of their work. Fine inlay and veneer needs accuracy to that .001 level; as your fingers can feel the edges/ridges when things are not flush. On the other hand, a shop bench drawer can probably be out of square 1.5º and not really cause a problem. Pick the tool calibration needed for the work at hand, and remember that ALL of these are probably not accurate enough for truly precise aerospace machine shop work. It's all relative!
Look at a Rockler catalog---the whole thing is based on a manufactured need for precision--to the average garage shop tinkerer it means spending a chunk of change for stuff to hang on the wall. To me what really is important is the alignment of my table saw blade. My late father's 70 year old squares are confirmed by my recently bought (for model airplane wing rib alignment) machinist squares. I looked at the Woodpecker stuff and thought it was ridiculously overpriced.
Thank you. Measure twice gives you two different lines to cut.
One other factor is the material we use, wood moves, it expands and contracts. I have seen this for years on forums, people boasting about cutting to 1/1000th of an inch, forgetting that their wood can expand 1/8th of an inch across a table top or shelf over night,
I'm glad that you mentioned that. You are absolutely correct. Wish I had added that to the video, but thank you for adding it here.
I classify myself as a woodworking hobbyist since I've never made a dime off of the stuff I've built over the last 50 years.
My first power tool was a Montgomery Wards 10" Radial Arm Saw I bought back in 1972. This machine became the backbone
for most of my wood working from the early 70's to about the mid 90's. I now use a 10" Sears Craftsman sliding miter saw for
most of the stuff I do these days.
I use a 1974, 6" inch, vintage Sears Craftsman jointer to true-up my boards. I purchased this when I had to build cabinets for my kitchen
back in 1974 .... the jointer wasn't vintage when I bought it.... but after all this time ... we both fall into the vintage category.
Regarding my layout tools I own an Imperial tri square that I've used for years. I didn't realize it wasn't quite square until I bought
a Starrett 6" combination square and compared the two..... which means I had to buy yet a third square to verify the accuracy of
the Imperial and the Starrett.... I now buy Starrett tools.... I also buy PEC seconds when needed and available.
I've built a ton of stuff using tools that fall into the 'Not for Snobs' category. All of my projects have held up very well over time.... by
the way, I still use my imperial tri square because it has a steel blade and never worn down after all these years.
Mark Bell
I'm on disability because of a ridiculous number of back surgeries. I've been woodworking for the past 8 years and I just recently got a thickness planer. Second hand I might add. All my tools including measuring have all come from Harbor Freight, Lowe's, Home Depot or Amazon. I'm sure Woodpeckers brand is nice and I'm sure I would agree they have amazing detail. Do I believe spending that much money on a tool would make me a better woodworker ABSOLUTELY NOT! In my biased decision I have put out quality work with the tools I own. My experience does not have anything to do with how accurate or how much detail is in a product, but more so my knowledge in how to use the tool effectively. In fact I have not had one individual tell me they were never pleased what I made for them. I'm almost willing to guarantee if you talk to an older generation woodworker, he would tell you a tool is a tool. Just my honest opinion
This video needs more attention. Solid work, man. Got my like, sub and a comment. Deserves more but thats what i got.
The thing that always get me is one simple fact. Two words.....Wood Moves. Just how much do you need to fuss over 1/100 of an inch on a product that will move with seasonal relative humidity. That is not to say that accuracy doesn't matter, but if I cut the picece 10.254" instead of 10.25", who will ever know.
You nailed it!
I agree with you presentation on how square is square. The main reasons I purchase woodpecker tools is accuracy and easy to read .
Rough framing hoping the painter can make square or a diy project that actually looks great.
You cracked me UP with that framed picture of the Woodpecker square! My only question is...what did you use to cut the miters? ;)
I actually used that new Bosch miter saw that was in the background. I made a simple flush cut jig for it and cut the miters. Thanks for watching. More to come.
Great video and lots of good information to take in. I’ve been a drummer for almost 50 years. I have owned many pro level drum sets and a collection of over 20 snare drums. 3 of the 4 sets I currently own I have BUILT MYSELF! I bought raw drum shells and did all the processes to make a functional drum. I did so, at the time, with all box store tool. Combination squares are very important to the process, and at the time I had only an Irwin square and a few rulers. I dare anyone to find any imperfections on my drums. A couple of years ago I took up woodworking and have built numerous furniture pieces, that’s when my problems began. I still do not own any measuring tools over $60, and I build some decent stuff. It’s all about skill. I still can’t justify $180 for a square, not to say that I won’t treat myself someday. Thanks!
PEC tools are made in the usa and you can get them under 100 they are comparible to Starrett.
Love your video, man. I've been woodworking for more than 30 years and I still only consider myself "pretty good." You are absolutely spot-on right when you say the only thing that matters is the ability to cut or drill accurately. I own a number of squares of various types, but honestly the ones I use 99 percent of the time are a six inch machinist square, a six inch Starrett combination square and a tape measure. As for Woodpeckers, I don't believe anything they claim and I don't buy from them any more.
I've been looking at Woodpecker products for years and never bought one for two reasons:
1. Their cost
2. The accuracy they claim is simply nuts when it comes to woodworking. Were not making precision Swiss watches we're making tables, chairs, boxes, toys etc. etc. etc.
Fine accuracy is generally mandatory for metalwork but not woodworking.
Well stated! I use Empire brand speed squares (6" and 12") and they are extremely accurate after I flattened them on sandpaper glued on a sheet of glass. I've used them for years. Woodpeckers is absurdly overpriced. I also have machinist squares which are also extremely accurate. For everything I have about $100 invested.
I'm a pure hobby woodworker. While I aim to be as accurate as possible I actually find that more important than the accuracy is the consistency therefore I do like the squares with marking holes. Just to be clear when I say accuracy I do want my 90 degree angles to be a 100% accurate, but if if a drawer is 10 inches wide or 10.005 inches wider does not really matter in my opinion.
That's a good point. You are referring to what the woodworking community refers to as RELATIVE MEASURING. Don't know if you've ever heard that or not. It's a good topic that I will be discussing in future videos. Thanks for watching and commenting. I hope that you enjoyed the video.
I spent 30 years in aviation and areospace. You know, things that fly. Accuracy, .005. I also built many homes, cabinets, furniture and so on. It's not the tool, it's how you use it.
I 100% agree. Thanks for commenting. I would've thought aviation would be higher than that. Pretty interesting
@@angrybeaverwoodworks aviation is surprisingly lenient because things have to move under varying temperature conditions, ultra tight tolerance wouldn't matter in a lot of cases.. plus when you add in fasteners etc, things drift a bit.
Oddly enough, I work in toys and routinely fight with tolerances down to 0.0002" (and that's TIR on rotating parts, which is just nuts). I literally started woodworking to get a break from tight tolerances.
@@kyorising That's pretty interesting. I would've never thought that about toys either. I'm glad that you're in the woodworking world now.
Nice video!! I own a few igaging products. They make GREAT stuff. I also own a few Woodpecker tools mainly because I like that they are made in the USA which is probably why they have a higher cost. Another TH-camr over at "Hooked On Wood" has a series of reviews called "China Tools". He reviews a bunch of tools made in China that are inexpensive and as accurate as their more expensive counter parts.
I do cabinetry and furniture making and would NEVER consider a speed square for any of that. For carpentry, well that is different which is what is was originally designed for. I use Starrett combination and trysquares. I have a 12in and 6in combination squares. I also have a 24in blade for my 12in combination square. All of my squares will nest inside of each other without any light visible. FWIW L S Starrett tools are designed for engineering and machining applications so a little more accurate than required for woodwork but there is never any doubt. Plus they will likely outlive me.
I need to learn how to make a 45 degree cut ( for picture frame and similar) with tools that are close...but not quite.
Very nice video…!
You are right …it is like fishing… some stuff is to catch fish… other is to catch “fisherman”…
The golden sentence … matters how you cut,…. True…!
Thanks for sharing!😊
I love that way of thinking....fish and fisherman. That's a great way to put it and you are correct. Thank you for commenting and I'm glad that you liked the video.
Funny video with lots of provoking thoughts about accuracy vs. cost. Thanks for sharing.
Great video. Got you a new subscriber. I have to mention, though, it's a marking knife, not a marking pen.
I know...lol. That's NOT the only mistake I made. I also said, " Lumber and Regular Wood". I meant to say PLYWOOD...lol..... I'm glad that you liked the video. and thank you for subscribing. I have a lot of new content on the way.
Nice to see someone else hasn't drunk the kool-aide. Woodpeckers is priced SO high to me that I can buy a tool instead for all that cost! Agree 100% with the machinist's square - absolutely essential.. and inexpensive. A fraction of the price. Absolutely correct that you can't cut as accurate as you can measure. We all know plywood ain't square, and that timber has lots of runout, flatness issues, and such. I know when I tolerance a job for a customer, I make it as high as +/- .125", and the tightest I will spec is +/-.0625". The only reason I need squareness is in how things fit together, so that the item will sit reasonably flat and perpedicular on a surface when completed. But, trying to maintain sheet metal accuracy in wood seems crazy to me.. and I've done both for more than 45 years. Thanks for a great commonsense video!
Thank you for the kind words and all of your input. I completely agree. Thanks for watching
With several sets of digital calipers I imagined I was encountering poor quality because, by the way I was using them, each needed to be reset to zero when the jaws were closed. That was true for the $20 no-names and the $140 Mitutoyos. Then I learned to wipe the contact surfaces when I closed the jaws and found they all returned to zero and gave identical measurements throughout their range of measurement. In fact, I came to prefer the no-names for some woodshop applications because they'd toggle through fractional inches as well as metric and decimal imperial. The fractional inch capability is extremely useful for selecting drill bits for pilot holes.
I'm so glad I came across your video. While I may not be frugal, I also refuse to buy something just because it's supposed to be so much better, when in reality it isn't. Good job!
Amen. This is pure signal. Respect, sir!!
I've purchased several tools from igaging. Good tools and great customer service.
I've had a pretty good experience with them so far and all of my current projects are looking pretty good. Thanks for commenting.
I’ve got money to ‘waste’. I like the accuracy, fit and finish of the WP tools.
I have a bunch of china made "red" layout tools that fit that same narrative, but got them for a fraction of the cost.... wasting money is one thing outright knowingly overpaying is foolish
@@CementRoots guess I’m a fool. The money helps keep someone employed. Does that help?
@@daveerickson5313 i've tried some of the knock off red layout tools and they were no where near close to square, and we're not talking the thickness of a single sheet of paper but more like 1/16 to 1/8 over a 8" span, that gets pretty noticeable on a 30-36" high cabinet....There may be some good knock offs out there but the ones i've tried when trued up against WP, the old bridge city or machinist squares were definitely not accurate
Well said for your post here. I am a machinist with set-up and high precision experience. It come naturally to me as I am a control freak. That being said EVER situation must be considered individually as to what is needed and what is reasonable or even possible. With precision metalwork one of the more important parts of your tolerance measurements is the temperature of the metals and also the measuring device when your measurements are made. I am leaning more about working with wood but mostly just need time and mistakes till the knowledge and skills are developed. (tooling is not craftsmanship)
I build boxes that my friends and family gush over using layout and measuring tools purchased at the big box stores. Sure, I've bought a few high end items from my local Woodcraft store but they really didn't improve my work that much. The main point, as was noted in the video, is the accuracy of set up on your power tools... mine mainly being a $300 DeWalt table saw. I've spent long periods of time trying to "dial in" that blade to a perfect 90 or 45 (hasn't everyone at some point?). Regarding the 45, once I learned to cut one piece on the left side of the blade and the other on the right to make my miters for my box corners, it really didn't matter that much. 44.5 and 45.5 still add up to 90.
That 45 miter idea is brilliant. Don't know why I never thought of it. Probably because I am not brilliant!
I agree
I agree with David's comment below. I've seen and used that angle trick when I could get my jointer dialed in to a perfect 90. I labeled each side of the wood with the A/B trick and flipped the wood. I have never thought about the same concept on mitered joints. That's pretty genius. Nice trick
I do tend to use a machinist's square to mark pencil lines on wood that I'm about to cut with a saw that has a 3/8 inch kerf.
As a retiring tool maker for 40+ years I'm just getting in to wood working so wile I have a world of learning to do with woodworking I use a lot of my machinist tools to do my wood work I know a woodworker tell me you should be using this or that it's faster or better but these are the tools I know how to use and I'm pretty proficient with them and I will put the accuracy of them against woodpecker tools all day.
I love your comment and I absolutely agree with you. Use the tools that serve you well and that you are confident with. There is nothing wrong with that. Machinist squares are my new best friend and I like the lower cost. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad you liked the video.
I was a CNC machine installer in the early 80’s today, I still use my calipers for measurements. Yes wood moves over a short period of time however the more accurate you can make the cut the better your project will be. 😁🛫
Machinist square / measurement tools are far more accurate than any wood working tools. LOL. Wood working community has been adapting machinist tools such as 1-2-3 blocks. They will never ever need that kind of accuracy for woodworking, but 1-2-3 blocks are dirt cheap for it's insane accuracy.
I never automatically believe a company when they say they do something, they can stretch the truth quite a bit without being called out. I only hold partial weight of someone saying "it's totally off" as there is a high chance of human error and/or stupidity, unless they prove it. I was really hoping on seeing actual testing here. a feeler gauge that has been double checked by a caliper or better yet multiple calipers.
I bought a professional grade self leveling laser level (few hundred dollars new), set it up, tuned it close as I could, then turned it on and found that from top of the door to the bottom of a door it looked way off. so tested it by tying a string on to a nail and a nut at the bottom. yeah, I went old school on it. the door was crooked but so was the laser, it was about an inch and a half- inch and three quarters off. even with full adjustment to the unit I couldn't get it "level" until I shortened one sliding leg... by a LOT. I got a more accurate reading from an app on my phone sadly.
Woodpeckers tools are beautiful but just to expensive. I have several Igaging measuring tools and love them. Affordable and accurate.
You are spot on!
You asked for a better method to do this particular thing. Get 2 of the squares and put them in place and use your calipers to measure between them. No marking required and you are absolutely measuring to the square. That being said, we frame, we trim, and we build cabinets. We use the same squares and the same tape measures, and the same saws. Of all the professional cabinet shops that I know, which only do cabinets, they all use the same tools we use for framing, trim, and cabinets. Save your money. As you pointed out, the pencil line is anywhere from 0.09 to 0.05. How accurate is your saw, and how straight can you cut? No one will ever say, that cabinet you built, I'm sending it back because it's 1/16 out, much less.004 out.
I can't tell you how many times I was close clicking that "Buy" button at the woodpecker site. I agree with you. They're TOO damned expensive. I have a machinist's square I've had, and have sweared by, for the last 25 years. Grreat video ... I'll be back.
Thank you for commenting. I'm glad that you enjoyed the video
One thousandth of an inch is a 2% humidity change for wood.
I wish that I had added the thought about seasonal wood movement to this video. I'm glad that you have mentioned it. Thank you
At the end of the day, most people would look at a hand made item and couldn't tell you if it's accurate unless it was made by a knuckle dagger or you dropped such a bollock that it was obvious to the eye.
If it looks good, it's accurate
I'm embarrassed to say my speed square is from Harbor Freight. LOL Yeah, it's bad. But you know what, for what I use it for, it works just fine. Now, I am also a model builder and for that, it's a machinist square all the way, and of course, my Vernier caliper. Not digital because it's so hard to find a digital that's affordable and accurate as the Vernier with repeatable results. Thanks for this video, you hit the nail on the head. Wait... is there a precision hammer i can buy?
I bought I-Gaging straight edges and learned two things 1) thei customer service do not exist 2) Even those AliExpress cheap tools are more accurate.
One of the best inventions for the workshop ever, is the speed square. I have two of the squares, large and small.
The price I see on some tools steers me right away. I have some that I have paid a good amount of money for. You get what you pay for, for the most part. Woodworking doesn't require the accuracy of a plastic injection mold or a progressive die.
You can buy a set of high quality drafting squares really cheap. I find myself using mine quite often, especially for machine setups and verifying cuts. Well worth having in the shop!
That is a really good idea. I would have never thought about drafting squares, I don't know much about them. Thanks for commenting.
Well the whole WP discussion is quite a doozie indeed. Great marketing company… accurate yes since they use CNC but lots of issues on value. When shipping costs exceed item costs for continental delivery there’s an obvious problem. I’ve also found their products to be more of show pieces than anything else. Wall hanging like it’s a picture is a bit much . A lot WP stuff is aluminum and very lightweight so I guess the wall mounts are to protect them since the products are pretty delicate.
As for accuracy in woodworking… no woodworking requires machinist accuracy and as mentioned the saws etc are not capable of that level of accuracy. A 32nd or 64th of an inch is pretty much the limit for wooden furniture making. I’ve taken a WP square against a “cheap”Milwaukee and found the markings identical.
As for igaging They’ve been around for eons… China based… sold at Lee Valley. Well made… realistically priced.
The few WP products I’ve purchased I found to be a bit too delicate … almost cheap feeling. Great marketing… poor value… ludicrous shipping costs.
Another (imho) relevant question is
How much accuracy do you actually need in woodworking?
Angular deviation might be relevant, when it comes to really large squares, almost nobody uses, anyways.
Woood itself isn't very accurate. Thermal expansion, wood and air humidity are always factors to consider, when dealing with wood.
So many people have added in the fact that wood breathes, moves, expands, contracts, etc.... I really wish that I had thought about that while filming. I appreciate your comments. Thanks for watching....And YES...how much accuracy do you REALLY need
Woodworkers also forget that the medium they use i.e. wood is imperfect itself. It moves constant with humidity changes. So spending top dollar on precision measure and marking tools is nothing more than a case of 'keeping up with the jones'. Sure you need a good set of machinist spares to set up your tools so that you have a fighting chance of making an accurate just in your imperfect medium.
Accuracy is not about the tool, but the finished product. Assuming one guarantees the other is misleading. It still needs the skill of the craftsman using it. All the increased accuracy is wasted on a fat finger, working with poor lighting or having a bad day. These conditions are more about accuracy than the tool. As the saying goes, sign of a poor craftsman that blames his tools.
Accuracy itself is a "combination square! It is combines many aspects -measuring, maavrking, cutg, tools, tool thickness, skill level of the carpenter, quality of blade, available space, workrate, light available! Time of day, tiredness, speed, deadlines, et al! Buy the best tools you can afford, learn how to use them, and take your time!!! At every step you are " working for a finished product!" Everything improves with patience and understanding!
The moral of the story is very very clear - A silk purse is never made from a sow's ear!
So, I should spend money on tools to mark my cuts with according to my skill at making those cuts. Fair enough. I see a ruler on the Walmart website for $1.00 that should get the job done. And there is a 12 pack of #2 pencils for less than that. Excellent. I'm in good shape now. You just saved me a fortune.
I can't tell for sure if you're being facetious but I have made tons of cool stuff using tools exactly like you mentioned. Are they true down to .0000001"? Absolutely not! But they still look just fine.
In many cases, I think that both of you are correct. For many many years, I used rulers and squares from harbor freight, walmart, etc... I really don't think that there is anything wrong with people using those products if they are happy with the outcome of their projects. I've built some nice items using cheaper tools and no one knew the difference. Overall, I just wanted to step up my own skills and see if I could improve. I appreciate you watching and commenting.
@@CeeJayThe13th
A little facetious, but maybe not a lot. That would probably be a good way to go given my woodworking skills. O.K. Maybe I'll shell out $2 for the better ruler. But you get the idea. And yeah, you can still produce decent looking stuff if you aren't very skilled. You just have to work within your skill set. For instance, my brother and I updated my entertainment center to accept a larger television. From 32" to 55". I did some demo work pulling out shelves and supports, he cut a piece of plywood to replace the old cardboard backing, and I painted the inside with flat black paint to match the color of the rest of it. It looks like a pro job. Most people have no idea that it was even altered. And I'm a clumsy autistic person who is afraid to use power tools for fear of injuring someone. So, I recruited the help of my brother and his hand-held saw. And that was the most sophisticated tool we used. I could have done it with hand tools if need be. Were precise cuts needed? No. Just cuts in the neighborhood of being accurate would be good enough. I think we either used a ruler or piece of wood to make our marks on that project. Whatever straight edge we had available at the time.
@@angrybeaverwoodworks
If you are fricken Norm Abram then spend some money on some decent tools. But if you are some goofball who barely knows how to use a saw, you don't need to. Worry about learning how to swing a hammer without killing anyone and go from there. That's like a guy who doesn't know how to play pool spending top dollar on a custom pool cue. Just use the house stick, stupid.
Did you know a framing square can be adjusted? Easily done with a baker and center punch. Thanks for the great show!
I've heard about people using a fine wet sanding method, but never anything involving a center punch. I'll have to look that up. Thanks for watching
Accuracy in woodworking can be broken down into how few steps may include human error. The process of making an accurate cut involves the fewest chance for human error. This is why CNCs have become popular in woodworking
I switched to buying Woodpeckers to replace my starter tools because they're always accurate and if I don't like it or it's not working the way I expected, they accept returns ZERO questions asked. I have a few great tools in the budget area, like iGaging but anything critical I don't cut corners. That said, I find relative dimensioning and using the tool between my ears goes a lot farther than anything else 🤣
That's pretty cool that they accept returns like that. I know several companies that don't offer that. Woodpeckers really is a great company. And I'm glad you mentioned relative dimensioning. I have a video coming out about that very topic. Thank you for comments.
the square can be dead accurate, but when you add your pencil line and your sawing line, you are already way off being dead accurate. In short, usually the problem is us and not the tool...
I use a machinist square to calibrate my machines and it makes a big difference when cutting long boards on my table saw or when jointing boards. I agree that the Woodpecker squares are far more accurate than needed.
Time served 5 year apprentice carpenter and joiner. Never used a marking knife; pencils only. Very rarely have off joints. Same Marples 7” try square since 1969. No problems other than my errors. Same Rabone Chesterman combination square - no problems bar my errors. Point - look at reasonable priced, accurate enough, tools. Emperor’s clothes comes to mind regarding Woodpeckers, Bridge City, Incra, Lie Nielsen, Veritas! Tip - practice, practice, practice leaving the line in...
You are missing an important point: these tools are (also) used to calibrate machinery. And dont even try to convince me that your cheap square can level a jointer.
@@AlainPilon No machinery used. I use a portable router, plane, and the rest are cordless. Regarding machinery, I remember using straight edges by Starrett (shop owned) but I used Rabone Chesterman, and Stabilla to check but not often.
Is cost for Accuracy or Consistency? If the Grizzley squares are DIN 875-1 as they claim then there shouldn't be, as you mentioned, "mixed reviews". Maybe price isn't a reflection of accuracy but the labor for additional quality assurance to ensure consistency? I noticed the same issue of mixed reviews with IGaging as well. Because you received one that is square doesn't mean I will. Of course, it's also possible that it's not a mfg issue but fakes being sold on Amazon.
Amazon is littered with fake products.