Why X16 memory chips have less bandwidth than X8 memory chips
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2021
- Shorter version of part 1 of this video: • The differences betwee...
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Thanks for explaining, it was easy to notice the difference in performance between laptops that have the x16 and x8 memory, but otherwise I'm like WHAT IS RAM
_Me, in my head thinking of the Rome Total War vocalization of units carrying the battering rams:_ *RAM!*
Random Access Memory. Think of it as a temporaty data storage for your CPU.
What is RAM?
Baby, don't know me
Don't know me, no more
Baby, don't know me
Don't know me, no more
What is RAM? Yeah
This also affects laptops which have a 1 SODIMM + soldered configuration (like some of the Lenovo laptops). There the soldered RAM is 4 x16 memory chips.
Since the memory controller on the CPU takes the worst possible timings for both channels, that means that the soldered RAM will end up affecting the performance of the DIMM. Or in other words, there's no point in spending the money on an x8 SODIMM if an x16 SODIMM is cheaper since both channels will run with x16 timings.
@@hjups I don't suppose you know what the ThinkPad P14S gen 2 AMD model has soldered in? I just ordered one and now stumbled on this ram banks information.
Linus Tech Tips: "It's like librarians..."
AHOC: "Bank groups!"
maybe the more chips you got on a stick is better as it can cycle more operations quicker MAYBE ?
everything involving banks or bank groups like deutsche bank group is a scam knew it since 2008 mate.
We need more librarians! :-)
Shorter version of part 1 of this video: th-cam.com/video/w2bFzQTQ9aI/w-d-xo.html
If you're wondering what happened to the HWbot score round up. I screwed up my jaw while recording a different video and so talking isn't very fun ATM. So this is the replacement for the score round up. Hopefully I'll manage to get the score round up out by Tuesday.
Get better soon been really enjoying the content :)
oh so that's why you sound so unusually calm in this one
recording a different video? ;)
So... what do we buy again? :-)
how does one injure their jaws while recording a video about overclocking? like, i cannot see it happening. HOW?
burn from a soldering iron? punching yourself in the chin when trying to remove a stuck LN2 pot?
GN had 1R x16 stick in their recent Dell G5 prebuilt review, running single channel for good measure.
Aha! I remembered this but could not find the video. You've got it. They pull it out at 13:10
Dell didn't want to screw things up only halfway.
@@d00dEEE If ya gonna screw up you have to go all the way lol.
@@d00dEEE They probably have a bonus system that specifically mentions savings that can't be seen on the spec sheet.
At least they make you pay extra for services you don't actually need or want.
"Why is everything in powers of 2"
That's like the dad joke of references of computing standup... XD
I didn't understand 😅😅
They don't want consumers to know this detail because manufacturers will have to charge accordingly. They want to sell all ram at a premium. 🤣👌
Unfortunately it looks like x16 will stay the same price (maybe some sales here and there), and x8 modules rise in price over this year
I believe the Dell prebuild that GamersNexus reviewed had X16 chips on the RAM stick. Nitpick: 5:00 is bits and not bytes. RAM cells are single bit.
Yes, the Dell G5 prebuilt is x16 th-cam.com/video/4DMg6hUudHE/w-d-xo.html
I don't think "it's super cheap, if you're buying that stuff you don't care about performance and I don't know what you're expecting" is a fair assumption to make.
If there are two kits of RAM advertised with the same specs (MHZ, maybe CAS), a consumer is going to - at best - use all of these metrics available to them to compare products and get the best deal that's affordable to them. The existence of a third metric is neither disclosed nor known to them. I did not know about this and consider myself somewhat knowledgable in terms of computers.
I don't think the unwashed masses should be free to prey on because they don't have an engineers degree in every topic possibly relevant to them, as much as it's seemingly a reality.
Thank you for the video and thanks for educating me on the issue tho.
I'm in the same boat as you. I found the best deal possible with the metrics available.
I found the best balance between ram speed, size and latency that i could, and ended up going with 32gb of 3600mhz cl16.
I'm going to dig a little deeper and find out exactly what parts they have used in my sticks because he mentions the lucky dip nature of the lower priced kits.
I don't personally mind the outcome of what i find and consider it a learning experience because it's much more interesting than i thought it'd be in my case.
i also learned a ton, after being around pc´s for now ~23years. the next rabbit hole i can advise is harddrives..... and i am not only talking cmr/pmr and smr, but also 512/4k, platter count vs. density etc. confusing modelnumbers, but at least not as bad as versions being totally different..^^
I second that part about being fairly techy but not knowing about this. 5 years of ameture PC repair/building im ashamed. i sure hope i never shafted someone with this.
@@sparkoceanic thank you. You've taken a huge wait off my mind. I've got the same kit and I was wondering about it.
Since you guys look so tech savvy please help me out with my question.so Bro i recently buyed Lenovo legion slim 7i gen7 2022 model. Iwanted to know if i have two ram both 8gb total 16gb. slot one is solded ram is rx16 and other is changeable (but its allso rx16). so if i remove other and put rx8 . of same dd5 4800mah but of 16gb ( because mine support max24gb). will it work? allso speed will incresse? is it a good idea? Plz enlighten me.
Top tier video. Funny how the ¨same¨ RAM kits can be so completely different.
That makes me laugh at everyone who ever once said RAM is RAM and said it is all the same.
had both the LTT and this video right next to each other on my feed lol. not sure where to start, but it seems like i'm in for 45m of fun either way
Ah was hoping you'd comment on this - nice work as always man :)
I have similar problem with this (on 2018 IIRC) especially with low-end value RAMs, the 4GB per module so to speak. At the time lots of cheap 4GB module are starting to use 8Gbit 4 IC with 1Rx16, instead of 4Gbit 8IC 1Rx8. But the problem wasn't as amplified as now since those 1Rx16 RAMs usually comes in higher speed bin (2666MT/s) compared to the 1Rx8 kit 2133MT/s, and the people using this kind of RAM usually have low-end GPU, making RAM performance difference not as pronounced as today.
I've checked a couple SODIMMs in local market, it seems indeed some the 16Gbit 4IC 1Rx16 modules are starting to be sold a lot more compared to last 1-2 years, and it might replace the typical 8Gbit 8IC 1Rx8 configs.
So need buy 16gb stick now? *sorry bad english
@@ArifLeu Not really, but it is less likely to found 16GB ddr4 module on 1Rx16 config, so if buying 16gb stick are an option this might be good strategy.
You can always try asking the store, although not many stores may understood details like this.
what if trhey go even lower... 16gb chips for 4GB ram module only 2 chips, 1rx32 (pretty sure it doesn't work like that but feel free to prove me wrong and save 2 bucks dell)
I’m glad you covered this because I found it a little confusing, you explained it very well, it was easy to understand
I would love to see the graph of electrical engineers to non-electrical engineers who watch these videos.
Not an electrical engineer, small sample size though
I'm an electrical engineer, so its 50% so far
I had a similar situation with Corsair in the past. I bought 2 Corsair kits with the exact same part number (to run 32 GB), and they had different chip manufacturers (Hynix and Micron) and different ranks (1 kit was 1 rank, other kit was 2 ranks). Learned my lesson. Never mix kits even if they are "the same" kit.
I have the exact problem right now. Ive used four sticks Corsair vengance 32gb in total but two different chip manufacturers, has worked for several months but now the pc crashes/blue screen all the time.
Unless the part number is so specific that they don't bother selling kits, like the 32G sticks I bought a month ago. Granted, they have ECC, but you can ignore that and they are still compatitve in price and speed.
Unless you know FOR SURE they have same specs (like both kits are 3200 14-14-14-?? 1R 2x8 Samsung B-die, for example)...
I just learned the hard way with PNY XLR8 sodimms, have 2 16gb sticks and noticed one had a lot more chips on it than the other...sneaky bastards
Laptop RAM sticks have also horrendous timings in general for obvious reasons regarding voltage. Even if you have a laptop with an unlocked multiplier CPU (therefore unlocked memory controller) you just can't OC the RAM or even tighten timings at the same speed.
They have horrendous timings because just like most prebuilts they just use JEDEC spec RAM, since that's what everything is verified for.
Some Laptops actually can do XMP.
RAM only consumes a few watts so its stupid to put a low spec one into a higher spec notebook.
@@Muldeeer Of course it is, but getting a motherboard that supports XMP costs a couple of dollars extra, and laptop manufacturers will cut corners to save costs at every opportunity they get. This is the same world where Dell puts single channel RAM in $2000 Ryzen gaming PCs to save a couple of dollars, even though it makes the PC about 30% slower in games. The big prebuilt PC manufacturers don't care about quality, they care about profit, and they'll do whatever they can to improve their margins as long as there's still someone in the world who will buy their shitty products.
@@Muldeeer It'll still sell.
@@nathangamble125 That's the phenomena of brand name which means you have a level of trust you shouldn't have
another video, that greatley helped me understand, what exactly memory timings do, and when they apply. Thanks for making videos like this one.
Kingston has datasheets for most of its Fury/HyperX kits that mention the ranks and chip size, IIRC.
yep and that one reason I use kingston because at least I know the specs from the pdf.
Love the extra diagrams and details. Thank you.
All of those shots version numbers on Corsair LPX RAM stickers is giving me flashbacks to hunting down a 32GB kit of B-Die. Same as the ver 4.31 kit you showed, but dual rank given that it's 32GB (got the idea from earlier content on this channel, so thanks for that!)
Squinted at so many blurry ebay listing photos...
My first thought was bank interleaving, just like rank interleaving can improve performance. Thanks for more or less confirming this so I don't have to!
thank you, this was exactly the kind of video I was looking for after seeing linus' rant
As always the you are a good source of PC tech stuff. Great work
I was waiting for this exact video. Thanks BZ.
Really cool video with information that no one else is really talking about served up in a way my unwrinkled brain can understand!
Now that's a winning combo.
Any chance you release a video about what each tertiary timing does, and what they affect?
Great video. I appreciate the insight and I am slowly picking up terms. Soon I might even understand what is going on!
I started programming back in 1990 on a Commodore 64 and thought I had a pretty good grasp of memory and timings by now... But then Mr Buildzoid informs me that I'm still a clueless noob about memory topology and the inner workings of memory controllers. It never ends... and that's what I love about it! :P
Super cool video, great to see these details
This video was great, thanks for taking the time!
Thank you for your service sir! All this info is invaluable. Best pc channel on youtube!
Talking about those dell chips.
My buddy had a optiplex that we slapped a 1070 in with a i5 7400 it had a single channel x16 8gb ram dim(2400mhz). It made the 7400 perform exactly like a 3470s (wirh 1600mhz dual rank dual channel 4gb sticks) that we used as a in-between while off loading the dell.
Allways suprised me that it preformed that bad (where talking about sub 50fps dips in borderlands 3 @1080p)
Least we say how anemic 4 modules on a full size dimm looks but unfortunately dell is know to scoop even lower...
a good anecdote to hopefully further help all the dumdums that always insist that RAM is always the same. :)
@@taiiat0 Except not a single one of those watch AHOC so they will never see the comment :P
@@andersjjensen
yeah, i know.........
I've been waiting for this video.
buildzoid with technical explanation to the rescue. As always. Please never stop doing this.
Thanks for the clarifications. Really awesome service you provide to your viewers, like me, it really is appreciated!
In short...the more Bank Groups you have, the faster it is. So when looking for RAM, having 1Rx8 is good. But there is also Dual Rank Memory, you can double the amount of Bank Groups...So try to look for 2Rx8 or 2Rx4 RAM....
super helpful thank you for making this!
Ohh early on this one.
Hmm this is going to be something we need to look at closely moving forward when buying ram. With the current shortage is hardly surprising they are trying to reduce actual silicon output but at the expense of the user is not acceptable.
We really need more clarity from all vendors around this.
you're first on this one
This is exactly my thoughts , I'm about to pull my ram out of my pc to check . I get a sinking feeling 😕
@@texasslingleadsomtingwong8751 it's funny you have been using the ram this entire time and been happy with it but you are going to pull it out and look now and somehow be un happy with it 😂
@@samgoff5289 its about integrity, you simpleton.
Thanks for the explanation video.
This is the followup video i needed to understand this!!!!
Thanks for this. I'd consider myself at least kind of tech literate and I left the LTT with way more questions than answers. This was much better.
Another buildzoid gem
Great video! I already did know that bank switching is slow but I didn't know that the timing between banks in different groups is actually faster. From the naming I would have assumed the other way around.
I wasn't happy to find out that Corsair CMK16GX4M2B3200C16 doesn't actually tell what the part actually is. You would think that product codes that long could actually specify what you're getting! As I've mostly used the fastest available G.Skill RAM, I've accidentally dodged this bullet!
Much needed, thanks!
I was hoping to see you dive into this topic.
Nice video. It helps a little bit more.This issue deserve more attention because it affects too much pc performance. MOBO manufacturers have a page in their site with the memories compatible with their product and there you can find the specification of the memory and also if they are single/double ranked and X8 or X16. But for laptop it is impossible, only if you open the machine and see the memory stick or the label of it.
another classic buildzoid video.
Great follow-up.
good tips , tnx a lot
One thing to note is that as you go up in capacity you will have more bank groups so you cant compare this way between different capacity. An example is a x8 8GB stick will be similar to a x16 16GB stick, so x16 is not necessarily a bad thing.
Thnx for explaining this properly. Bless Linus but I had more questions after the video then before .
That's why I like Kingston. They actually have spec sheets for each of their SKUs. It doesn't list which die is being used though. I think most manufacters don't list anything so they can change dies without having to make new SKUs or use multiple dies for a single SKU.
They have spec sheets because their labels are so bad. You can never reliably figure out what is what just by reading the info on the damn stick unless you know their part numbers by heart.
I like crucial. They put rank configuration information on their website for at least _some_ of their memory, and you usually know what sort of memory die you're getting because they only use micron memory (e.g. the really fast Ballistix MAX kits are always 16Gb Rev B, the moderately fast Ballistix kits are Rev E or 16Gb Rev B, and the slower Ballistix kits are 8Gb Rev B).
@@nathangamble125 Crucial is Micron’s consumer brand.
@@Knirin Well yes. That's why they only use Micron memory.
There's so much we don't know about things we get used to long ago... Thanks for an explanation!
Hi. I have question. I want to ask which one is better and will cause lower temps on cpu and gpu. 2 x8 8 gig ram. Or 2 x16 16gig ram? First one is 16 gigs fast ram and the 2nd is 32 gigs but slower kind.
Nice video, I try to keep educated on these topics but it’s scary how quickly I forget intricate details over time.
THANK YOU
If they halved the number of bank groups. Would doubling the number of chips get the speed back? Or another way would a 16 GB stick be faster than a 8GB stick using the same chips.
a great counter explanation to go along with what Linus half explained for the masses. just a shame the masses won't see this other half.
Good stuff 👍🏽
good explanation 👍🤘
My favorite part is the eBay listing picture with "WOW! 8GB" at 26:05.
Nice video !! But one question not answered can i upgrade my already present ram x16 with an other ram x8 on dual channel or is not worth it and just buy an other x16 if i can't afford two x8 !
Main Issue is that we can't find this information anywhere, even while buying new RAM sticks for our Laptops and Desktop.
Hi, is it correct that the tighter the timings you want buy the less 1x ranks you get?
May be that is the basis on which the LTT guys set there tone regarding buying desktop RAM.
can you gave us a recommendation for high end sodimm ram's
I was hoping for you to really explain us what the LTT video ment, I saw it and instantly thought about you. Thank you Buildzoid for your knowledge is trully a blessing for normies like me. 28:18, I lauged so hard.
Hello Buildzoid. I recently got 2x8GB Corsair Vengence Pro which Thaiphoon Burner says is Hynix BJR. Couldn't find much overclocking information on it. Will it be more like CJR/DJR or B-dies or Micron rev E? Would be great if u could make a video on BJR sticks
this may be a dumb question, but i want to upgrade the ram in my laptop
currently it's 4 GB soldered and 4 GB on a dimm (it's x16 for good measure)
If i wanted to replace the dimm with a 16 GB one (i'm decently sure it can keep up dual channel for some the part of memory where both channels are present)
can i replace the x16 dimm with a new bigger x8 dimm? (so the MMU not shitting itself instantly, and keeping dual channel where it still exists)
will 1Rx8 and 2Rx16 perform the same? should be the same number of bank groups per dimm right?
Do 1rx8 or 2rx8 better for gaming ? i am thinking to get a dual channel ram but stuck at choosing both 1rx8 or 2rx8 ram for it
"Why is everything in powers of 2?" Because binary devices represent numbers in power of 2. Performing math upon powers of 2 is extremely easy for binary devices, which is exactly what you'd want for internal components that benefit from operational efficiency.
Out of curiosity I have a Corsair, CMK16GX4M2A2666C16, ver 5.30, DDR 4 , 16GB(2x8GB) in my pc. Is this a good version?
Hey. I have 1 question: what situation will be for DDR5 RAM SO-DIMM? Exact the same situation as for DDR4 (where as we have seen there are 1Rx8 and 1Rx16 RAMs, and the first one is really better than the second one)? Or not? Game's rules are changing or not at this point? Sorry for my bad English.
What is the optimal RAM kit, let’s say for Ryzen, and how do you find out which is the right stick, apart from asking you?
Brother Buildzoid is the hero we need that we don't deserve. ❤️
We need to start holding these manufacturers and marketing departments accountable.
This will only get worse unless we stand up for ourselves as customers (or potential customers).
Yeah, beyond-JEDEC Micron sticks would indeed be nice. Or just some higher bins and extended-voltage versions of their normal sticks. They don't hide their numbers, unlike Samsung.
Hold them accountable for what exactly? They are not forcing you to buy anything, if you aren't happy with somthing a company does don't buy from them 🤯
Don't know if you are going to read this, but I don't know much about ram things and would appreciate if you reply.
I'm going to buy 16 gigs(8x2) sodimm. They have weird sort of numbers and cl19 and all that. Is it all the same Or what should I look for?
Edit: It's for a mini itx that uses so-dimm.
Now the problem is as follows: considering that manufacturers don't say the precise specs (the ranks, subtimings, what chips are using, if they are by 8 or by 16... etc) and will keep doing so, is it possible to create a community repository of the various ram sticks and revisions that contains those specs?
If we ignore the difficulty to overclock 4 sticks vs 2 sticks and ignore that x16 sticks maybe worse in overclocking the x8 sticks:
What happens if you use 4 Sticks of single rank x16 in dual channel? Would it be similar to 2 single rank sticks at x8?
Thou do the groups available per channel add up? Or do the ranks add up and 4 sticks of single rank x16 is equal to 2 sticks of dual rank x8?
Or is 4 sticks of single rank x16 even worse than 2 sticks of dual rank x8?
Me: *makes BZ video fullscreen*
Also me: "why is this video not fullscreen? WHY DOES CLICKING FULLSCREEN PAUSE THE VIDEO?"
Interesting, thanks :)
Would the issue “show up” in the primary timings, could you tell it’s 16G chips from those?
“RAM matters” - BZ 2021.
How can we tell which organization scheme is used by the dies on the memory modules? I don't see it on the label or in the specs given by the module manufacturer. Is it visible in software like HWInfo64?
But when selecting a different bank group, which bank will be selected?
If at that point a bank still has to be explicitly chosen, then switching bank group is actually slower (by short amount).
I had rank 8 ram of 8gb already installed in my laptop, now I wanted to increase it to 16gb of ram but due to unavailability of rank 8 ram I had to go with a 8gb stick of rank 16ram. So, my final specs is kinda rank 8 + rank 16 ram (total=16gb and both runs at 3200mhz) will the variation in rank of both effect the performance negatively ?
Wow this reaction video didn’t take long lol
So, essentially, Linus's bookshelf/librarian image was correct.
no because the amount of data in the bank group is irrelevant. bigger modules aren't slower. X16 chips are.
I actually compared it to actual banks (back in the day) where you having more branches of a bank in given area and you more options to get your money without waiting in a line.
If I'm wrong then that's because I'm not that knowledgeable in the technical aspects of computers, just wanted to throw out my initial thought on it.
@@thegamerboy1000 yeah that's a bit closer.
Good Video, thanks for that.
But I'm missing the info, why do Rx4 RAM had the same number of banks as the Rx8 RAM. Thats a litle bit confusing. Maybee you could give me an answer.
Buildzoid i have a question for you, i am desperately looking to buy a dual rank b-die, in the corssair vengeance RGB pro series, now i know version 4.31 is samsung B-die, but what version is samsung B-die dual rank?
Single rank Samsung B-die is 8 Gigabyte stick, dual rank - 16 Gigabyte. Twice the ranks for the same chips - twice the capacity
Can you please post a link for the functional Block diagrams you used?
anybody knows some spreadsheets of rams specifying if the ram is x8 or x16 ? (potentially also single rank vs dual rank)
Does cpu-z show number of banks and background, and do having 2 smaller dimms have double the groups than 1 larger dimm
I had a question, which is better having 1x16Gb dimm 2r and 2x8Gb dimm each 1r? As both actually will get dual channel speaking
Hello!
Can you suggest good x8 laptop ram with low CL?
good stuff, can you do djr dual rank overclocking (gskill neo 32gig kit, 16x2) that would be nice :-)
So what is the absolute best ram I can get? I have the corsair version 4.32 with the bad samsung memory chips.
is it better to use 16Gb x8 alone or use a hybrid 24 Gb setup (16Gb x8 and 8 Gb x16 ) ?
WTRL sounds like a radio station call sign.
Wish someone would do some performance testing for servers with double density chips.
im looking for a 32gb kit but iam so lost there are no videos on this topic and i cant decide which to get bruh
Thank you for such a detailed video.
How exactly would I know for sure if the 2x16Gb GSkill TridentZ (F4-3200C16D-32GTZR) use x16 or x8?
EDIT: used Thaiphoon and saw this:
JEDEC DIMM Label
16GB 2Rx8 PC4-2133-UB1-10
Part Number
K4A8G085W[B/C]-BCPB
All good, well as good as it gets for this RAM - says it's Samsung B-die but can't overclock it much beyond 3400Mhz and it's not even 100% stable
@actually hardcore overclocking is there any way we can compile some list of Rx8 RAM's? it so hard to target buy what you want from the lack of market information. does anyone have a list allready?
Thanks for the great lesson…
What does the 2x8GB mean on the single vs dual rank?