The only truthful thing Holtz said in this entire episode was that love is greater than hate. Inflicting vengeance upon Angel by the hand of his own son is a masterpiece of revenge. Before there can be betrayal, there must first be trust.
16:50 You called it! Holtz is despicable, yes, but he's also one of the few Buffyverse villains to just flat-out win. His goal was to terrorize Angel in retribution for his family's death, and moments after Connor is born he reiterates that he will "show no mercy". He completely follows through on that, _literally dying_ to ensure that Angel's son will enact his revenge.
I get the dislike of Holtz. I think he's one of the most interesting villains in the Buffyverse: he's just a regular human (albeit with some demonic help), no powers at all, but he's practically Captain Ahab. He turned himself into a weapon just to get revenge on Angelus and Darla. He threw himself into the worst hell and had himself killed to frame Angel just to turn Connor against his father. He starts out as this righteous vampire hunter and after losing his family he throws all that away just to make Angelus pay. And he's a little like the Mayor; he genuinely seems to love Connor, even though he's willing to use him for his own ends. imagine the depths of hate it takes to take away the one person your son loves just to turn him against the person you hate. it's breathtaking - it's Angel getting a big taste of the kind of pain Angelus always loved to inflict.
I like to think Holtz did reform it was Justine's plan to frame Angel. I believe this since when Holtz is getting Justine to kill him nothing he says would indicate he's trying to frame Angel. In previous scene with Holtz and Justine he says there is one last act of vengeance but that's the conversation he has with Angel, where his last line is that it's his last act of revenge.
Groo was the Angel version of Riley. Both were good for Buffy and Cordelia. Both were madly in love with their girlfriends, but were taken for granted. Both left their worlds behind (Groo, literally did) when things got crazy, in order to concentrate on making their relationships work. Both were hated by fans for not being Angel. And both didn't get the girl, in the end, and left. Each show had a counterpart for the other. Doyle and Xander. Both of them had low self esteem, both acted awkward at times, coward at things until they were needed as backup in the heat of the moment. Doyle was helpful to Angel with his visions and Xander was sometimes observant to things maybe Buffy wasn't. However, Doyle was never annoyingly obsessive in a toxic way, or insulting when he couldn't have his way, like Xander was. Anya was the replacement for Cordelia, personality wise. Gunn was the back up muscle who could be depended on when trouble starts and could hold his own as a second in command to get things done, like Willow to Buffy. Wesley is Angel's Giles. Fred is Angel's Tara. Awkward, sweet, cheerful, unexpectedly helpful, earned a place with the gang. Dated one of them. The other ways I can't include because they're spoilery. Obviously Angel and Spike are each other's counterpart for many reasons.
So the actor who played Holtz was 49 when this episode aired. It seems like they imply Connor is 16 in this season but I think they say he’s 18 next season. So, let’s meet in the middle and say he’s 17. That would put Holtz at around 66 years old, looking 80. Which I guess you can attribute to him living in a hell dimension.
Well at least when we get back to Buffy you'll soon get much more satisfying villain dies scene. Though I'm sure if it'll be worth we it takes us to get there.
Not sure how familiar you are with mythology, but religion & mythology courses are very interesting (in my opinion). They often find their way into literature as well as TV & film. It can help with understanding themes & motivations. Understanding cults & how they work can also help. Wesley definitely hit the nail on the head when he suggested that Holtz's organization was "a nice cult". Justine's actions don't make sense because she's been indoctrinated & isn't thinking rationally.
The way I saw it the letter was one final move by Holtz paint himself as the good guy and Angel as the bad guy. "Look how good I am and how much I love you, I'm returning you to your real father because I want you to be happy, I've given up my vengeance etc." That way it would make Angel look even worse for killing him.
Holtz wanted the ultimate vengence because he had to throw his own daughter into the sun to kill her. So he's getting his payback, even though he's condeming his own soul to hell. Now Justine, OTOH, makes no sense at all and is incredibly stupid. Angel kills the type of vampires who killed her sister, so she had no reason to want revenge on him. But it does follow the example the writers showed us with Connor hating Lorne.
@@kbwolfe9491 Justine was a write-in for Kate. The actress who played Kate was busy on Law and Order by this time. It would've made much more sense if it was Kate's arc imo.
Connor is supposedly 18 according to the Buffyverse wiki, and while I don't think there is an official age for Holtz, the actor was 49 years old when Benediction aired, so I suppose we're meant to believe he is 67 years old. We can account for him looking like pizza dough due to being from the 18th century when average life expectancy was 36 before numerous medical advancements and public sanitation and safety standards became common. He also experienced a lot of stress, trauma, and near death experiences, with no less than protecting a child in one of the most dangerous dimensions in existence in his middle age.
The Groosulag was a great guy and character. So is Cordelia, she just hadn't worked out what Groosulag knew when he left. That Cordelia loves Angel and probably vice versa. Good on The Groosulag for doing what Riley should have done with Buffy, bowing out with grace instead of making things worse. That a core personality reason why people love The Groosulag and not Riley.
I totally understand Holtz but I don't agree with his methods you have to understand if someone killed your family wouldn't you want to take revenge on said person the murder of Holtzs family broke him mentality
22:17-48 You're thinking of the test of Solomon in the Bible Kings 1. Yeah Angel never really has been the wise mediator type. And no I don't get Justine either. Would does she even see in Holtz? He never treated her like anything more than a tool. At least Faith got kind of a wealthy, affectionate father figure in the Mayor.
I remember watching this season and been so mad at Holtz, his motivations are understandable but I can’t stand him He’s probably one of the most annoying villains but props to the actor
The only truthful thing Holtz said in this entire episode was that love is greater than hate. Inflicting vengeance upon Angel by the hand of his own son is a masterpiece of revenge. Before there can be betrayal, there must first be trust.
Groo was a good guy. His scene with Lorne was my favorite scene with him. It shows that he’s a really smart dude.
16:50 You called it! Holtz is despicable, yes, but he's also one of the few Buffyverse villains to just flat-out win. His goal was to terrorize Angel in retribution for his family's death, and moments after Connor is born he reiterates that he will "show no mercy". He completely follows through on that, _literally dying_ to ensure that Angel's son will enact his revenge.
I understand Holtz vengeance, it's wrong but the pain of losing his child, don't know how people can get over it. It stays with you for life
I get the dislike of Holtz. I think he's one of the most interesting villains in the Buffyverse: he's just a regular human (albeit with some demonic help), no powers at all, but he's practically Captain Ahab. He turned himself into a weapon just to get revenge on Angelus and Darla. He threw himself into the worst hell and had himself killed to frame Angel just to turn Connor against his father. He starts out as this righteous vampire hunter and after losing his family he throws all that away just to make Angelus pay. And he's a little like the Mayor; he genuinely seems to love Connor, even though he's willing to use him for his own ends. imagine the depths of hate it takes to take away the one person your son loves just to turn him against the person you hate. it's breathtaking - it's Angel getting a big taste of the kind of pain Angelus always loved to inflict.
I like to think Holtz did reform it was Justine's plan to frame Angel. I believe this since when Holtz is getting Justine to kill him nothing he says would indicate he's trying to frame Angel. In previous scene with Holtz and Justine he says there is one last act of vengeance but that's the conversation he has with Angel, where his last line is that it's his last act of revenge.
Here for the Groo love. I adored him right away and never understand people not liking him!
Groo was the Angel version of Riley. Both were good for Buffy and Cordelia. Both were madly in love with their girlfriends, but were taken for granted. Both left their worlds behind (Groo, literally did) when things got crazy, in order to concentrate on making their relationships work. Both were hated by fans for not being Angel. And both didn't get the girl, in the end, and left.
Each show had a counterpart for the other.
Doyle and Xander. Both of them had low self esteem, both acted awkward at times, coward at things until they were needed as backup in the heat of the moment.
Doyle was helpful to Angel with his visions and Xander was sometimes observant to things maybe Buffy wasn't.
However, Doyle was never annoyingly obsessive in a toxic way, or insulting when he couldn't have his way, like Xander was.
Anya was the replacement for Cordelia, personality wise.
Gunn was the back up muscle who could be depended on when trouble starts and could hold his own as a second in command to get things done, like Willow to Buffy.
Wesley is Angel's Giles.
Fred is Angel's Tara. Awkward, sweet, cheerful, unexpectedly helpful, earned a place with the gang. Dated one of them.
The other ways I can't include because they're spoilery.
Obviously Angel and Spike are each other's counterpart for many reasons.
0:42 **Anya Face** "Wish Granted."
So the actor who played Holtz was 49 when this episode aired. It seems like they imply Connor is 16 in this season but I think they say he’s 18 next season. So, let’s meet in the middle and say he’s 17. That would put Holtz at around 66 years old, looking 80. Which I guess you can attribute to him living in a hell dimension.
they seriously depowered Groo once he settled in as a recurring character this season.
Yeah they did. He's supposed to be stronger than Angel and then....nope
Maybe in the real world he’s not as strong? I dunno I could be wrong. It’s been a while
@@dylanburton4955 Pylea is real
@@godmagnus dont be pedantic
@@dylanburton4955 that’s a good point, that out of his dimension his strength is less.
Poor Groosalugg.
wowowow goood call on that one lexi
Well at least when we get back to Buffy you'll soon get much more satisfying villain dies scene. Though I'm sure if it'll be worth we it takes us to get there.
You've officially put more thought into Steven!Connor's age that Whedon did.
Not sure how familiar you are with mythology, but religion & mythology courses are very interesting (in my opinion). They often find their way into literature as well as TV & film. It can help with understanding themes & motivations. Understanding cults & how they work can also help. Wesley definitely hit the nail on the head when he suggested that Holtz's organization was "a nice cult". Justine's actions don't make sense because she's been indoctrinated & isn't thinking rationally.
Her power is love 💗. Hello 👋🏻.
The way I saw it the letter was one final move by Holtz paint himself as the good guy and Angel as the bad guy. "Look how good I am and how much I love you, I'm returning you to your real father because I want you to be happy, I've given up my vengeance etc." That way it would make Angel look even worse for killing him.
Keith S. does a great job of portraying Holtz. Truly an interesting villain.
I love this hatred of Holtz and Justine, we've all been there 🤣🤣🤣
Wow! Great call on the two little holes! Right?!? Holtz dies and it just makes you even more mad at him.
In a way,at least Holtz took care of Connor,maybe truly loved him,he is human afterall
someone did not go to church often lol, a benediction is a blessing
It's possible that Holtz was genuine otherwise why the letter. The staging of his murder could have been all Justine.
Groo really grew on me too
Holtz wanted the ultimate vengence because he had to throw his own daughter into the sun to kill her. So he's getting his payback, even though he's condeming his own soul to hell. Now Justine, OTOH, makes no sense at all and is incredibly stupid. Angel kills the type of vampires who killed her sister, so she had no reason to want revenge on him. But it does follow the example the writers showed us with Connor hating Lorne.
To be fair they did have a different character in mind for her role, but yeah I wish Justine was written better.
@@JHowesitgoing123 What character was supposed to be in her role?
@@kbwolfe9491 Justine was a write-in for Kate. The actress who played Kate was busy on Law and Order by this time. It would've made much more sense if it was Kate's arc imo.
Connor is supposedly 18 according to the Buffyverse wiki, and while I don't think there is an official age for Holtz, the actor was 49 years old when Benediction aired, so I suppose we're meant to believe he is 67 years old. We can account for him looking like pizza dough due to being from the 18th century when average life expectancy was 36 before numerous medical advancements and public sanitation and safety standards became common. He also experienced a lot of stress, trauma, and near death experiences, with no less than protecting a child in one of the most dangerous dimensions in existence in his middle age.
The Groosulag was a great guy and character. So is Cordelia, she just hadn't worked out what Groosulag knew when he left. That Cordelia loves Angel and probably vice versa. Good on The Groosulag for doing what Riley should have done with Buffy, bowing out with grace instead of making things worse. That a core personality reason why people love The Groosulag and not Riley.
I totally understand Holtz but I don't agree with his methods you have to understand if someone killed your family wouldn't you want to take revenge on said person the murder of Holtzs family broke him mentality
22:17-48 You're thinking of the test of Solomon in the Bible Kings 1. Yeah Angel never really has been the wise mediator type.
And no I don't get Justine either. Would does she even see in Holtz? He never treated her like anything more than a tool. At least Faith got kind of a wealthy, affectionate father figure in the Mayor.
I remember watching this season and been so mad at Holtz, his motivations are understandable but I can’t stand him
He’s probably one of the most annoying villains but props to the actor
Hey remember when Holtz died… that was a thing