Poor Groosalugg. That dude is so awesome. Holtz may have seemed like the least of the big bads, but he won. I would definitely be down for the show now revolving around Fred.
@@jameshenner5831 When you listen to the commentary of the DVD's they say it wasn't the plan, but it was the only thing they could do and still stay in character, and I 100% agree with that. Watching from the beginning of S4 it can be pretty easy to realize even the first time watching, Riley isn't too long term cast-wise. The writers liked Riley, but struggled to keep in on even as long as they did, because they knew Buffy didn't love him. Forcing her to be any other way would have gone against her character and was what Riley was trying to do when telling her to "lean on him." She barely does that with friends and family and he was whining that he did get something that if not done naturally wouldn't mean anything. But from here we could get into nearly all of my _Into The Woods_ comments (which are long), and this isn't that episode.
When I was watching the show this was the most frustrating finale I just want Angel to be happy for once, he’s such a good dad Excited for you to react to episode 1, season 4
14:24”Conner really knows how to mess with some one.” Well he is Angelus’ son, and he did learn from Holtz. That is one question I never considered. How much is Conner like Angelus?
Angelus is totally separate from Angel. So he’s nothing like Angelus at all. If anything, he’s much more like Darla, but I you really have to reach far to see it.
I heard one of the writers broke their back doing the plot gymnastics required to get that ever so subtle Cordy rising/Angel sinking visual at the end.
I think this is an Empire Strikes Back / Stranger Things 4 type ending, where we aren't sure if the forces of evil have actually won or not. The thing about those, they only work if the lead up has been truly epic. Otherwise it feels like "we got tired of writing at THIS point. End."
I loved hearing your kitty purring in the beginning❣ I like this episode. It was a little jarring at first because it's not the normal, We won!, finale. I think I really like in now though because I relate it to the next episode. Also, I watched Angel on DVD so I didn't have to wait to find out what happens next. To see how Holtz was willing to completely ef up a kid for his own revenge is so sick. Justine is just as guilty.
I really enjoyed the journey from season 1-3, even with the ups and downs and certain storylines cut short and certain characters not getting utilized well enough. Hell I even thought that there was potential in the Connor storyline, sure it hadn't really hit the nail on the coffin yet, but there was definitely a path to be taken to make it interesting. If it wasn't because there is so much important information in season 4, that you would need to understand season 5, then I would just skip season 4, but unfortunately you can't. Season 4 is such a hard watch, because it feels like straight up character assassination, with no redeeming quality to it. On a brighter note, season 5 is great, fun and utterly heartbreaking.
It might 'feel' like character assassination for a few episodes, but it soon becomes clear that it's really not. Hardly worth skipping a fantastic, twisty season of television over. The hatred of season 4 needs to be talked about a little more because it always seems to boil down to the handling of 'Cordelia'. The fact that Cordelia was not present for the ENTIRE season, thus leaving her untouched, seems to be brushed over or forgotten. She was able to return later without feeling tainted in any way. Cordelia felt exactly as she was pre- season 4 and it felt right - no sense of sweeping things under the rug or rebooting. How could her return play out like that if she was ever 'assassinated'?
Justine of course once again teams up with Connor to do the ultimate betrayal of Angel inflicting on him the terrible torture of being confined to the depths of the Ocean in an unbreakable cage. We of course see Skip help Cordelia 'ascend' while Angel 'descends'. We lose Groo too, who knows that deep down Cordelia didn't love him. Lorne is off to Vegas, you'd think a place where he really belongs. All in all a good, but frustrating ending to the Season with fans yearning for the new Season and will we see our favourite characters again, the writers in Angel leaving a real cliffhanger here for S4.
Obviously I won’t spoil it incase Lexi sees but Season 4 does a good job of wrapping up some of these threads without dragging it for too long which I appreciated
I was sooo frustrated watching this. I really dislike Connor. Hope you'll enjoy the journey more than I do though! With Buffy dealing mostly with "growing up" and Angel dealing with "being an adult", it makes sense to add fatherhood and parental struggles imo. But they have such talented writers usually and I'm disappointed in how they went about it. And the need to do Charisma (Cordelia's actress) dirty, although that's a controversial take.
In general i'm not a big fan of cliff-hanger season endings* and of those i'm not a big fan of, this is one :). I mean, it's OK, it does a job but it feels much more like a _mid_ season finale. * unless you're absolutely _certain_ you're coming back, to me it's disrespectful to viewers to risk leaving us hanging (genre TV fans back when these shows were on knew all too well the pain of cancellation). It's also slightly lazy writing IMO because one reason for doing them (which Joss Whedon admitted to) is that they basically give you the first episode or two of the _next_ season.
I'm sorry but I still think that the whole story about Angel and Cordelia is so unnatural, so forced, like if Angel has to have a romantic interest for someone? I mean, why? Him and Cordelia are so great as best friends, they look like siblings, they seem so wrong together.
I love how Groo learned sarcasm and pettiness in our dimension.
I find it sad. Poor guy.
This is actually the only real cliff-hanger finale in the series. And Angel literally went off a cliff.
"Everyone is so happy, such a bad sign", at last you're getting Joss Whedon.
"He remembers the books he read when he was sixteen?"
We've seen him before Darla found him, there probably weren't that many to remember.
He even found a few where nobody had colored in the pages yet.
Now Lexi can get back to Buffy Season 6 - which is so much happier
@@Tekkarath I'll take your Oof and I raise a WTH - and some maple syrup
If i could snoodle with Lexi I'd do it every day but she's in Germany and I'm in Canada - so many noodles apart I'm sad
Wow, I laughed so hard. 🤣
Poor Groosalugg. That dude is so awesome.
Holtz may have seemed like the least of the big bads, but he won.
I would definitely be down for the show now revolving around Fred.
Groo should give Riley pointers on how to bow out of a relationship gracefully.
The writers kind of screwed Riley. They just made him seem so irrelevant in Season 5. Maybe that was the plan.
@@jameshenner5831 When you listen to the commentary of the DVD's they say it wasn't the plan, but it was the only thing they could do and still stay in character, and I 100% agree with that. Watching from the beginning of S4 it can be pretty easy to realize even the first time watching, Riley isn't too long term cast-wise. The writers liked Riley, but struggled to keep in on even as long as they did, because they knew Buffy didn't love him. Forcing her to be any other way would have gone against her character and was what Riley was trying to do when telling her to "lean on him." She barely does that with friends and family and he was whining that he did get something that if not done naturally wouldn't mean anything. But from here we could get into nearly all of my _Into The Woods_ comments (which are long), and this isn't that episode.
When I was watching the show this was the most frustrating finale
I just want Angel to be happy for once, he’s such a good dad
Excited for you to react to episode 1, season 4
We have seen what happens when Angel got happy once...
"I just want Angel to be happy"
Are you aware of _WHO_ Angel is?
14:24”Conner really knows how to mess with some one.”
Well he is Angelus’ son, and he did learn from Holtz.
That is one question I never considered. How much is Conner like Angelus?
Angelus is totally separate from Angel. So he’s nothing like Angelus at all. If anything, he’s much more like Darla, but I you really have to reach far to see it.
7:48
1 Holtz blow it up when hunting Angel and Darla
2 Gunn's old team shot it up
3 Car crashed in it on there way back from Pylea
I heard one of the writers broke their back doing the plot gymnastics required to get that ever so subtle Cordy rising/Angel sinking visual at the end.
Damn my sympathies
Buffy 3x22 - Mayor: "You ascend,to a higher level" and is showing Cordy
Angel 3x22:
Yay. We're now up to my favourite season on Angel.
"You Raise Me Up" in background
Riley could learn and thing or two from Groo on how to end a relationship
I think this is an Empire Strikes Back / Stranger Things 4 type ending, where we aren't sure if the forces of evil have actually won or not.
The thing about those, they only work if the lead up has been truly epic. Otherwise it feels like "we got tired of writing at THIS point. End."
I loved hearing your kitty purring in the beginning❣ I like this episode. It was a little jarring at first because it's not the normal, We won!, finale. I think I really like in now though because I relate it to the next episode. Also, I watched Angel on DVD so I didn't have to wait to find out what happens next. To see how Holtz was willing to completely ef up a kid for his own revenge is so sick. Justine is just as guilty.
I wonder where groo went, did he went back to his dimension with a suitcase or he went to rent another place?
I really enjoyed the journey from season 1-3, even with the ups and downs and certain storylines cut short and certain characters not getting utilized well enough. Hell I even thought that there was potential in the Connor storyline, sure it hadn't really hit the nail on the coffin yet, but there was definitely a path to be taken to make it interesting. If it wasn't because there is so much important information in season 4, that you would need to understand season 5, then I would just skip season 4, but unfortunately you can't. Season 4 is such a hard watch, because it feels like straight up character assassination, with no redeeming quality to it. On a brighter note, season 5 is great, fun and utterly heartbreaking.
It might 'feel' like character assassination for a few episodes, but it soon becomes clear that it's really not. Hardly worth skipping a fantastic, twisty season of television over.
The hatred of season 4 needs to be talked about a little more because it always seems to boil down to the handling of 'Cordelia'. The fact that Cordelia was not present for the ENTIRE season, thus leaving her untouched, seems to be brushed over or forgotten.
She was able to return later without feeling tainted in any way. Cordelia felt exactly as she was pre- season 4 and it felt right - no sense of sweeping things under the rug or rebooting. How could her return play out like that if she was ever 'assassinated'?
Justine of course once again teams up with Connor to do the ultimate betrayal of Angel inflicting on him the terrible torture of being confined to the depths of the Ocean in an unbreakable cage. We of course see Skip help Cordelia 'ascend' while Angel 'descends'. We lose Groo too, who knows that deep down Cordelia didn't love him. Lorne is off to Vegas, you'd think a place where he really belongs. All in all a good, but frustrating ending to the Season with fans yearning for the new Season and will we see our favourite characters again, the writers in Angel leaving a real cliffhanger here for S4.
I wanted Cordy and Angel SO BAD. This broke me!!
Spike + Buffy. Same
How does Cordelia afford a Jeep? Those things are pricey. Angel Investigations pays better than I thought.
Songs for the LoveLorne
Definitely an odd one. I’m not sure what they were trying to do with Cordy. The rest I get for a cliffhanger ending.
You're right - this was an underwhelming finale... season 4 is good. I dont want to give you any spoilers, but it is enjoyable 😁😁😁
3:36-47 Strangely I did hear that.
I mean I have thoughts but don't think I can say them until after you've seen season 4 lol
lol if you thought S3 was crazy your in for a ride for S4 :)
4:47-51 LOL Oh thank U. I can't stop laughing now. 😀
No spoilers cus you still watching but look forward to season 5 episode called youre welcome
Can't wait the next one :p
Spoiler question:
is this the moment cordelia got "took over" or did it happen later?
Later, IIRC.
SPOILER ANSWER
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I think it happens once she comes back
ok i thought its later too but the whole thing was kinda vague
15:28 Both.
The writing for 4x01 more than makes up for this cliffhanger.
ABSOLUTELY
Obviously I won’t spoil it incase Lexi sees but Season 4 does a good job of wrapping up some of these threads without dragging it for too long which I appreciated
All the weird Cordy stuff in this episode only really makes sense once you see season 4 lol
Aren't you glad you don't have to wait three months?
12:40 new word invented: queeing
Just last episode you said would throw a party when Holtz died 🥳 (th-cam.com/video/1MhvlXa1W7M/w-d-xo.html). So where's the popcorn?
😮😅
I bought this! I actually paid money for this on dvd and I’m still underwhelmed 😅 fml right
I Want
I was sooo frustrated watching this. I really dislike Connor. Hope you'll enjoy the journey more than I do though!
With Buffy dealing mostly with "growing up" and Angel dealing with "being an adult", it makes sense to add fatherhood and parental struggles imo. But they have such talented writers usually and I'm disappointed in how they went about it. And the need to do Charisma (Cordelia's actress) dirty, although that's a controversial take.
This ending is rather bleak, it steadily strips away all hope and we're all just left with this sinking feeling
In general i'm not a big fan of cliff-hanger season endings* and of those i'm not a big fan of, this is one :). I mean, it's OK, it does a job but it feels much more like a _mid_ season finale.
* unless you're absolutely _certain_ you're coming back, to me it's disrespectful to viewers to risk leaving us hanging (genre TV fans back when these shows were on knew all too well the pain of cancellation). It's also slightly lazy writing IMO because one reason for doing them (which Joss Whedon admitted to) is that they basically give you the first episode or two of the _next_ season.
I'm sorry but I still think that the whole story about Angel and Cordelia is so unnatural, so forced, like if Angel has to have a romantic interest for someone? I mean, why? Him and Cordelia are so great as best friends, they look like siblings, they seem so wrong together.
I did not like the whole Conner storyline, lost interest in the show during seasons 3 & 4. 5 is better.