Something you probably are not aware of. The USAF/USN put out an email to many current and ex fighter pilots with the realisation that DCS is a pretty good simulator. We have something called page-3 tactics in the community. They fear current/ex fighter pilots might display and fly these profile on DCS. So you won’t be getting real viper pilots fighting like they may want to in ACM/DACT scenarios on DCS.
@@FancyPantsOnFire Interesting to know! But yes of course I completely understand that DCS can be used to display real world tactics to some degree and that anyone who is an active or ex-mil pilot needs to tread very carefully when playing DCS!
so much of the shit we pull freely in DCS would be instant career enders IRL, it's not even funny. So obviously dcs players have better chances, since we don't play by the rules, hell we don't even know what most of the rules are. If you treat every airframe you board as disposable, you get to do a lot more stuff, as opposed to say the crew chief pulling the logs and seeing a bunch of overgees on your return from sortie and getting your ass grounded.
This is mostly an explanation of "why RFP's suck at BFM" as opposed to "RFP's don't suck at BFM." If RFP's were only limited IRL by Administrative Protocols, they would dominate in DCS, unrestrained by those protocols. Yet they don't. That's the point. They're just not as "good" as the glazers think they are.
@rmack9226 Well I'd wager a DCS pro in an actual cockpit pulling G's and maintaining situational awareness will do a hell of a lot worse than an actual pilot dicking around in DCS.
Short answer: A real fighter pilot will lose against a DCS player in DCS, for the same reasons a DCS player will lose against a real fighter pilot in the real world
I actually remember watching a video where navy seals, or British SAS actually HATE playing airsoft. Because of one simple reason, people aren't scared to die. Thus, 90% of actual combat and squad tactics don't even apply. Suppression is non-existent, Flanking doesn't work since you can't pin an enemy down. And people don't retreat when clearly outgunned. They treat it like a COD match instead of an actual battlefield.
Guess its good for fighting total fanatics who will die for their cause....(even though they rarely, if at all, exist these days, no matter what propaganda people use)
@@nathanramage1275yeah. Many exists pre battle but once you are pinned down by artillery people tend to not be as eager to go at the enemy instead of lying in cover
There's a video on youtube of a guy with his friends playing against SAS soldiers in paintball. The SAS guys won all the rounds by being extremely aggressive and just immediately rushing and flanking. When they follow the same rules about "i don't care if i die" they come out on top.
I used to follow a Naval aviator named John "Cat' Chesire who passed away in 2021. He was a TOPGUN graduate, tried out for the Blue angles, and flew for the airlines for over 30 years. He stated when the airlines gave him sim time, he became hamfisted becuse he didn't have the physical feedback.
Amazingly well explained! adding to your thoughts, even a real life F-16 pilot, flying an F-16 in DCS would be at a disadvantage due to control inputs not being 1:1 (in terms of force feedback). An interesting match up would be a DCS player vs a real life F-16 pilot... in a legit F-16 simulator used by the USAF for training.
@@CommandT Last Friday I went to a career expo and met some Navy guys and they had a heli flight sim in VR and the base and motor that changed the angle of the seat based on the helis pitch and roll in the simulator. It was pretty cool and fun to actually feel my input give feedback that changed how I was sitting. The navy guys I talked to were pretty new and said they also played flight sims so I think the newer generation of pilots are more likely to have played a flight sim as well as having it form a major art of their interest in aviation. p.s. I think i rambled a bit much again
Imagine implementing a blood pressure and breathing sensors into the DCS, and if you don't handle the higher Gs correctly, it automatically makes a sudden blackout :)
doesnt blood pressure increase w/ g load all other things held constant, i don't know how u would make this work, but u could do a g strain manuever and hook up emg sensor to detect ur muscle contraction. You could also save up money and see if u could get a discovery acrobatic flight and try something like the real thing at least once and see how u like it.
Wrong! Perhaps most of you don't know about a guy called "Dreger" or something if I don't mistake, who never drove a real car in his life, yet he was winning quite often in a good car racing simulator called "Iracing". Someone put him to a test, just to see how good of a pilot would he be on the track with a real powerful car. The result? The virtual car racing pilot vomitted after the first lap, but asked to try again after getting himself back from sickness. Even though knowing the car's behavior and the same track from the PC sim, he did the next lap at a 2 seconds difference from the world record with the same car on the same track. The guys at the pits quickly told him to get back to the pits, either by being afraid that the virtual pilot can have an accident if he forces the limit or to not dishonor the real pilots even more by showing how good a virtual trained pilot can become. Now me...! I've been flying realistic flight simulators since I was 9, more than 30 ago, and at 22y I went to an airclub to fly gliders. The first time I was let to take the controls and fly by myself within the few training sessions, the instructor was amazed about how I knew to keep all the references so well like I've been flying IFR since I was born or something. I actually didn't learn anything from what he was talking there, but I've let him do his job. I knew more then he could think of, because he probably never met a glider student who flew thoroughly in flight simulators before. So he asked me where do I know to keep the speed so fixed, the angles and this and that. And I've told him respectfully that I know from PC flight simulators. He said: "NAAAAAAAAAAHHHH! The PC flight sims will make you worse"! I kept myself not to laugh after hearing him say that. Definitely, most of those who never tried a flight or car racing sim have nothing but a wrong imagination and self-induced bad ideas about it and can even hardly accept the reality that a PC gamer playing and correctly learning how to drive a ground or air vehicle can be not just as good as the real trained one, but far better because he jas all the time, lack of stress and pain, lack of guilt feeling if he makes a tiny mistake from which he can even be grounded, lack of fear of getting killed, virtually infinite amount of times that he can reset the scenario he trains for. The PC is any pilot's heaven when it comes to simulators. Yes, when the virtual pilot will be subjected to G forces and stuff he wasn't yet used to, he may feel sick and due to psychological reasons may not initially perform as good as he did in the PC sim, and this is all normal and logic, but after a while of getting used to forces and leave the psychological things off, he can prove what he has learned from the sim, just lime that car racing sim guy did. All you need is a good confirmation and you should get it that simulators make much better pilots than only in real training which is tougher and harder to learn from.
Huh!😂😂😂. And even though the DCS F-18 turns a lot much better in the sim than in reality due to overpowered engines while the Su-27 and Su-33 have actually unserpowered engines compared to the real jets! LMAO! So even with that unfair DCS F-18 advantage, he still lost to the less performant (than in reality) Su-27.
@@Maverickf22flyer You see thing is first you pass physical tests and then you get to learn to be mil pilot. You can think your good all you want but you aint flying sht if you cant cope.
Risk and fear for life is a such a huge factor in these simulations vs real life. I watch this f16 pilot max afterburner play dcs and his play style is much more relaxed and safe compared to how pro dcs players who has the mentality of taking risk because they're safe behind retries.
I think this is the number one reason not a single DCS player (only) can ever state any type of comparison. People truly cannot comprehend how much your survival instincts and physiological effects would play a role in these scenarios. When the Gs come in, your life is on the line, your adrenaline is through the roof, shit will change your perspective real quick.
finally, someone addressing this... my dad is a fighter pilot who instructs noobie fighter pilots in all forms of air combat (air to air, air to ground, formation flying, BVR, BFM, etc.), and he's a REALLY good fighter pilot. He is NOT good at video games and would have a steep learning curve if he picked up DCS (hence, why he hasn't tried it yet). Not only would he have to learn a new aircraft (because DCS planes are NOT real-life planes believe it or not), he'd have to learn DCS mechanics, aerodynamics, ballistics, strategies, etc. to do well. Fighter pilot skills don't directly translate to DCS. Even if my dad flew his plane, the F-18, he'd have to learn it all over again because it's DCS, not real life. I'm sick of DCS players on their high horses accusing real fighter pilots of sucking because they lose in a game they almost never play, while simultaneously thinking they'd make great fighter pilots (they would not, real-world combat scenarios, tactics, and training are FAR more in-depth, involved and intricate, if not entirely different, from DCS). In fact, if a DCS player became a real fighter pilot, he'd have to unlearn almost everything he learned in DCS and then train for real, from the very beginning. Yet for some reason, because they fly a simulator that has some imitations of some real-life planes, they think they know everything.
@Remi-bo7tn Depends on the quality of the simulation, the unqualified opinion of world militaries seem to be that sticking good video game players on drones works far better than anyone else in the same role. Makes sense really, the only thing riding on that drone is hardware, no personal immediate threat to ones life, this is a Huge deal in how you approach and train for something, you're not going to do a five foot pass at mach one three on someone just to 'get him' when failure means instant death. Now a drone however! The controls map quite nicely, you're not in life or death and you can sim train it far better even with real hardware for ungodly hours because the hours cost a fraction of what a planes operating costs do. The pilots have nothing to fear, right up until someone makes a reliably operable and lower cost drone that can go toe to toe with a real fighter craft, at that point they are screwed, the math is simple, the pool of great gamers vs those who would make a good pilot is wildly different, without physical requirements beoynd coordinated arms and moderate eyesight you can filter from pool of million ok to great fellas for some truly great operators.
Wow, people are soo full of themselves. Thinking 1500 on a game is even close to 20 hr in the air on board with actual systems that have to be managed. Most dont even have proper communication Etiquette or know how to even understand the comms.
@@solinvictus2045 Yep! I think racing games are fun, got myself a wheel and pedals for my pc. But I know it’s a damn game and doesn’t translate to real life skill.
@@solinvictus2045 It's actually pretty commonly said that racing is a lot closer than other game types. It's still a different skillset to go from sim racing to reality, but there's good reason why a lot of real racers adore sim racing, and sim racers sometimes become actual racers (I know one dude who got into kart racing and actually gets sponsors)
it might also be important to recognize that the planes themselves might also behave slightly differently to their real life counterparts, as a lot of that info is classified and most of DCS is built on a 'best guess' of what the aircraft are capable of.
my dad is a real fighter pilot, and has many friends who are pilots who play DCS... they are different in a lot of ways. Yes, because a lot is indeed classified, but also because it's a game and not entirely comparable to real life. Even the training simulators can't capture everything a real-life pilot needs for training. Not to say that they don't imitate the real-life aircraft in a lot of ways, they do, but at the end of the day, it is a virtual representation of what the real plane might be like, it is not the actual thing.
Adding to this the review of the actual pilot was interesting. Particularly in regards to fatigue induced by high g manœuvres, engagement rules, and other physical limitations...
@@CounterfeitDuck that perfectly displays an often overlooked aspect of fighter pilots, that makes them fighter pilots: the mental factors, their characters. Being an actual fighter pilot is more than just a job of flying hi-tech jet planes and knowing how to flip switches in a cockpit, it's a lifestyle that requires people with the proper mindsets and character to do it and complete their tasks as efficiently as possible. These are the same people who responsibly get up at 0500 every morning and take care of everything they need to, have their studies and etiquettes absolutely nailed down, and generally are great, very hard working folks because that's the type of people combat careers require. The real pilot bluntly kicked GS's ass after those few rounds because pilots are people who LIVE to analyze their situations, learn quick, and adapt. And that's precisely what happened in that video.
Also, it is good to mention that in real life or death situation, there is stress. A lot of it. A DCS player would forget all of his play in an instance because he would be stressed out. Fighter pilots are trained for the stress. The whole training is made just to address the stress. It has been since the napoleonic era when they found out that on the battlefield 95% of the soldier that score the best score in the training miss their shots.
rumor has it certain pilots also aren't actually allowed to showcase their full capabilities to the public. Something about the fundamentals of warfare taught by some guy in China thousands of years ago discussing how people not knowing how capable you really are puts you at an advantage?
Several militaries in the world use DCS as part of their actual training (because airframes are humongously more expensive). If not DCS it's a simulator of a similar caliber. While gamers can get proficent at certain stuff due to vast discrepancy of hours put in you can't replace real world experience. I'd wager 99% of gamers just don't have the body that could whitstand 80% of the maneuvers they do in game. And most of those would never have the body capable of whitstanding that even with training due to genetics, age, lifestyle choices etc. Another thing is that dogfighting in modern 4+ and 5th gen fighters is like learning hand to hand combat for the infanterie. It's great training but it's the last thing you would actually want to do in an active warzone. Being so low and slow would make you easy pray for uncountable number of weapons systems, even a mk1 eyeball on an ww2 era anti air gun has a chance against a jet going 200-300 knots under 1000 feet of altitude. Modern air to air combat is all about electronics, missiles, SEAD, radar, information processing and so on. And mission profiles vary wildly, from "peaceful" flyover as a show of force to unguided rocket lobing Russian style, to anything in between.
@@CommandT I truly meant actual DCS, comercially available, same as shown on screen. It's much cheaper and doesn't suffer from trade embargoes and whatnot. The point of it is not perfect accuracy but just to get the recruits to have a general feeling of how flying is supposed to work.
Dude falcon bms simulates the f16 better though lol but no video game will ever repeat full on real life performance and then we also have limitations of coding and computers themselves too etc etc
For real though, ive only had to deal with 4g in a plane before, and you feel *heavy*. Its difficult to maintain your focus and freely move around to look arpund you and stuff when you do encounter those gs. I cant even imagine what 9 or 10g must feel like.
Reverse the comparison. A DCS player with 10,000 hours flying the F-16 "should" beat a real life F-16 fighter pilot with only 500 hours in the F-16. See how infantile the commenters are criticizing the real like fighter pilot for losing to the DCS player? Both comparisons are beyond ludicrous. Prime example Command T, how once again, there is ZERO value coming from the peanut gallery. But let me give you the real state of affairs in the world of the fighter pilot. My father flew the CF-5, CF-104, F-4, T-33, T-144, C-130, and others. He wouldn't waste a single breath playing DCS; complete waste of lifeforce. Why would he? Tell me how he would in DCS, duplicate flying 700 kts @ 50 feet in the CF-104, with MIG-21s/23s chasing him or trying to intercept him, ready to deliver the nuclear bomb in the centerline of his jet, followed by an ejection and "walk home" due to the one way nature of the CF-104's Nuclear Strike role in the NATO's structure of air command, which essentially was a "one way" mission??? Dad had a posting to S.H.A.P.E. Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe in Mons, Belgium. One of his week-long NATO courses was in Oberammergau, Southern Bavaria, Germany. This meant a high speed run on the Autobahn! Nope. He never broke 120 kph or 75 mph or 65 knots. When I asked him why he was driving so slow, he replied; "Son, I have flown 750+knots, (863 mph or 1390 kph) 50 feet off the ground. What possible thrill could driving 150 or 180 kph give me?" He made his point. We drove so slowly that day, the speed difference between us and the cars in the left lane was so great, our minivan was rocking from side to side. We did pass 3 things that day... a grandfather and his grandson riding bicycles and a dump truck.
Well, Até (former SEM and Rafale pilot) did kick Growling Sidewinder ass 😅 Real soldiers regularly kick airsfot players ass. I do fly DCS with friend (we are both in VR) who is a former Mirage F1 pilot IRL and I can tell you that he is very good in energy management and overall flying...but he is also an old school geek. So I would rather say that it depends if the RL fighter pilot is used to the virtual environment or not ? (By that I mean desktop combat flight simulator)
Absolutely! My point was actually more that DCS players can be very good and real fighter pilots can easily find a match for themselves online and be outclassed too. In DCS I mean. Being a real fighter pilot does not necessarily give them an advantage against good DCS players!
@@CommandTthe sheer amount of merges gamers can can get in just provides a lot of experience that you cant get irl. If a talented dcs dogfighter were to make it through pilot training, i think they would be deadly.
@@CommandT Yep, but in this days, an increasing number of real fighters pilots have prior gaming combat flight simulator experience when joining their Air Force, and they are able to bring back into the game what they learned IRL. These ones are really good. In the French gaming community, I have accounts of real pilots still playing BMS or DCS in virtual wings, some of them do it especially for the experience of large group, which is not that easy to organise during daily work. The French Air Force invested into DCS/ MCS (pro military variant of DCS) with the goal to be able to simulate large COMAO at cheap cost. They are developing their own modules p, outside of DCS market, to virtually replicate the French Air Force.
@@JoJo-vm8vkYea, simulators are good tools when incorporated correctly. I’m happy that they are getting better and better and us in the general public get to enjoy using some of them to fulfill our aviation fantasies :)
I think the fact that a sim doesn't put your life on the line from pulling crazy maneuvers is probably one of the biggest differences, or at least on par with the g forces.
I know its a little bit different thing (or at least the approach to your words), but this reminds me for that: I read somewhere, the WW1 or WW2 (I can't remember) fighter pilots who knows more about their aircraft in relation of repair, maintenance, structural knowledge, etc they wasn't dare to pull more Gs in combat, therefore they were "not that good" pilots (which is obviously not true, but most times it wasn't effective in combat). I think today's pilot's training including more detailed knowledge about their aircraft, than the pilots from the older times or a DCS "pilot", therefore their muscle memories are different to eg keep the structural integrity too and survive a fight than a DCS player who just "push the cobra button".
Maybe back in the day but these days with FBW you just pull as much as you want, no issue for the aircraft, unless you’re in something older of course like the F-15 or F-5
Great vid, but a couple of points from my perspective being both a former fighter pilot AND a DCS player. The two are not mutually exclusive which seems a minor point and does not invalidate what you are saying but it does make the distinction less important. I think that there are many lessons for fighter pilots which can be learned in DCS, you mentioned many of them but more so as a reason that it's an apples to oranges comparison and not as a great training tool when used in the correct context. For example, it was mentioned that bubbles, floors, over G's and various prohibited maneuvers are used in DCS all the time and that is true. However there is goodness in trying them, seeing what the sight picture is and how it might look/work. Obviously DCS is not a perfect replication of the various aircraft so those lessons have to taken with a grain of salt. Still, there are great lessons. Here's one, and it's a simple idea but it has really made me think hard. In real life if we hit the floor, say on a floor save where we just go 50 feet below the floor alt that is a floor kill and a knock it off. We have essentially "lost" that engagement by dying at the floor. It is easy to sort of gaff that off, no one really died, we'll go back and debrief it and find the errors that got us there and try to correct. What's interesting in DCS is you explode in a fireball, and this made me think about floor transitions in a new light. Conceptually I understood well what it means but fighter pilots like to get every advantage so messing around near the floor is one of those things we cut pretty close. But when you do it in DCS there is a significant visual aspect with the ground rushing up and making a close floor saves take on a new aspect. There are many other examples. Anyway, there's hours and hours of discussion about these concepts and like I said great vid, glad I found your channel. - Guido
Hello from Mariupol, Command T. Really interesting to see you replicate in DCS 2 plane strike tactic that RuAF uses. Su-34 with UMPK/UMPB and Su-35S with anti-radiation missiles. As Su-34 RWR is practically nonexistent in current environment, they(34&35S) have to fly really close for 35s to detect SAM radar beam directed at Su-34. This, as far as I know, it only applies to older SAMs that do not use track-while-scan missile targeting. Really interested in how effective that would be in DCS.
Yeah this is stupid. Dcs is a game, there’s no strict guidelines (military / FFA) safety, bfm sets, etc. let’s not forget real fighter pilots KNOW their jet they fly, the curriculum and tempo are extremely high. Reverse the role, a real fighter pilot would destroy us in a real jet, as you’d be so overwhelmed with how strict the rules and training regs are, we’d end up in prison, let’s just put it that way.
I love this type of content - DCS is fun, real life fighter jets were never an option for me, and I want to be aware of where simulator reality bleeds off into fantasy! One of the fighter pilot TH-camrs was talking about aerial refueling and how IRL there are so many seat of the pants acceleration and deceleration cues you just don’t get in the sim.
I get a lot of DCS stuff on my feed even though I have only watched it. I think the biggest benefit for a real pilot would be cockpit familiarity in flight training or B school. Many DCS fights start at the merge. In the jet I drove for over 20 years, everyone is dead before the merge, but if not I am going to significantly overmatch energy and come down from the cons at the merge to control the fight. Pretty much every merge I've seen in DCS is a bubble violation. In any given airspeed, config and alt i can pull an F-15C into a double beeper by feel alone, in DCS those years of feel and connection dont exist, which is probably why it's easier for the video author's pilot friend to fly a completely different aircraft in DCS. (My guess is his friend is Gripen or Typhoon driver based on accent) Also the missile modeling is based on publicly released stat sheets, which I would suggest taking with a grain of salt.
You can’t hear the accent of my friend here so I have no idea how you’ve made those assumptions! Plus Typhoon and Gripen are based in very different counties!
ehh fact that this is surprising is weird it goes in reverse too, in fact with other games it works too, a dcs player would get shit on in war thunder. simply because the game works differently
Great explanation. Many other real pilots that have channels have Sid the same! No feel, visual cues and as you said no Gs so it's a different world. I think many DCS players just have never experienced it. I fortunately have one in a back seat ride in my airforce days .. !
not even mentioning that in real life dogfighting is not as important of a skill over understanding and using your aircraft systems and sensors to their fullest because air combat has long since moved away from dogfighting once we started getting better radars and better missiles
I think it's pretty obvious and really the main thing is modern war is sorting dogfighting out, in the modern age it's really about the BVR combat and not the dogfights
I would never lose a fight against a real fighter pilot in a real plane. Simply because i wouldn't fit in the cockpit. Deal with it fighter pilots, i'll stay in the hangar eating cheetos.
I see simulators no different than learning from a book or a classroom, one gets to understand the principles and basics, but it’s only when one leaves the classroom and gets into the real working world they understand how good they are.
Also, I find it interesting to watch two real life fighter pilots dogfight in DCS - like Mover and Gonky. Both flew F-18s, and have similar DCS experience. It seems like better feedback on the sim pros and cons.
Note that professionals generally dominate in any sort of team v team scenario, purely based on their communication. Sure, an e-sports team might have even better comms (specifically developed for their game), and might thus win, but you take 10 random HATO pilots (or infantry in ARMA), and 10 random players (even top 10% of the playerbase), and the HATO team will pretty much always win.
These explanations are contributing factors, but the dominant reason is the military recruits from a smaller pool, which makes the bell curve narrower. There are plenty of zillion hours gamers that are still terribad.
Exactly an example: ``` Bottas beaten by a sim racer at Race of Champions | FOS Future Lab. A team of sim racers has sprung a surprise in the 2023 Race of Champions by beating a squad of F1 drivers in the Race of Champions Nations Cup - winning a knockout match for the first time since sim racers were invited to the competition in 2018. ```
all you told is correct, but in my opinion DCS has problems in transonic areas and second segment areas, you can glide way more than the reality, this is a drag problem, for sure you will ask your friend and he will tells you the same if he already tested, DCS has drag just with AoA like reality, but can't simulated in DCS just with Induce drag and parasite drag, the coders has to manege with another tools to simulated the reality. I can tell that do a dogfight F-1 versus F-1, full internal fuel , in my opinion will be 75% real, of course the F-1 lacked the second segment drag either, but mergi g at 15K like in the reality, it would be interesting the results. your friend will calculate the turns like reality in this type of planes in DCS.
The F-18 made a mistake at 6:36 letting you went behind its 3/9 line, and this advantage you had led you to win agaist the fighter pilot. Besides using vertical scan, you can also use the helmet mounted sight to lock the target. FC4 bundle is $9.99 now. Maybe you can buy that package to do MiG-15 vs F-86 dogfight with your fighter pilot friend.
10:06 landing an airliner both in RL and SIM means nothing. A better example would be “Stick and rudder”, “Instrument flying” and “IFR procedures execution” skills. Regarding these specific 3 abilities if a SIM pilot performs better than a 20.000h RL Captain then he is 100% better than the RL Captain. I am a RL Captain with 20.000 hours.
You are much more accustomed to the setup, to the sim and its quirks, have all the buttons and sensitivities setup as you like it prolly, used to the scenarios, the abilities of the planes as modelled, the way weapons, countermeasures, radars, terrain and masking behave and how to game that, all the shit. Its no wonder really. In dcs we can do shit that would most likely be inadvisable in a real engagement and are prolly discouraged in irl training, couse the cost/benefit analysis of doing it irl as a standard doctrine just doesn't work out, all just to get that little bit of edge, he has to mentally fight his training to take advantage of those i'd assume. 1v1s in a sterile "fair" environments with no wingmen are prolly rare too in training i guess ? Irl you would never want things to degrade to such an even scenario i'd say. Still tho its a cool thing to engage in a sim, you can try so many things which could prolly prove impractical or improbable irl for one reaon or another, just to see what happens and think more laterally you could say ?
DCS can only model their planes off what is publicly available information. The people who actually fly them in real life know what they’re truly capable of. I’ve seen videos of real pilots saying the planes in DCS feel sluggish, don’t accelerate as fast, or pull as hard as they do in real life.
People don't get it, the sim pilot has a lot of advantages, firstly the sim pilot has to learn how to get acustomed to using a screen, and not just turning their head, that's something a IRL pilot will struggle with, secondly you can spend a LOT more time on DCS than a IRL pilot will get in terms of flight hours, and lastly a real fighter pilot is going to be trained to treat their planes in a way that prolongs their service life, a sim pilot doesn't care about that, so the IRL pilot is probably going to subconsiously stick to that training.
Its very similar to Sim Racing. Yes an irl driver will be quick in a sim. But, (especially if theyre old school), theyll be outclassed by the best sim racers out there because its not the environment that they excel in.
With racing sims, long time IRL racers complain all the time about the lack of cues they use IRL. It can be a pretty rough transition into a simulator. If you didn't learn to fly on the information in the sim you'll always be slower until you figure out how to relying on more visual cues. Some drivers are great in both, but I always feel like the sim is like driving with one of your major senses blinded.
Arguably it's not just that real fighter pilots aren't as practiced with the game, which is different from real life, but that they can't afford to become that practiced at the game. Because the game does not reflect real life, so any bad habits they learn in the game will need to be actively suppressed when flying the real thing. And maybe some people can compartmentalize the two so easily that it's not an issue, but I sure as hell wouldn't risk it - not while flying a multi-million dollar plane with lives on the line. And to argue that there's no risk of bleed over between the two is to argue that all the time they spend in the simulator also won't translate at all to real flying.
There's a big difference between a real pilot and a player. A player just makes low consequence decisions while sitting at home. A fighter pilot makes real decisions while actually experiencing the direct effect of those decisions. With their careers or their lives (or others') as forfeit if they mess up. Video games, even 'simulation' games, are meant to do just that.. simulate enough to make a sufficiently entertaining experience. They're fun, and can allow folks to imagine, but nobody's blacking out on their gaming chair because of g-forces, no-matter how hard you 'hic' in the turn to pretend :P
Reminds me of VR shooters. In Onward VR we have alot of Milsim communities which often have actual service members playing. It can be good fun, but even in a slower, more tactical / "realistic" game like Onward, the strategies they teach are absolutely terrible strategies compared even to the ones used in pubs.
You also forgot one important aspect. While the aircraft in DCS are very well simulated, they are not 100% spot on in how they handle etc. The aircraft do actually behave differently to a real aircraft, no mater how much work goes into creating the best simulated experience.
The absolute worst bottom tier NBA player would absolutely trash the best amateur basketball player you know. A good similar analogy to a DCS SIM player versus IRL pilot. But that does not underplay the fact that simulated experience can be massively beneficial for real world pilots. Because even in training you could never dream of getting into as many simulated fights as you could on DCS.
04:30 fighter flights is not even close from the best sim flight. That includes real simulators. They are a very good tool for initial and emergency training especially because there you may make mistakes and deal with issues that will kill you when skin is in the game. I used to fly MSFS for years prior became a pilot and just stopped it when accepted as fighter pilot to start my training. As you told leading a formation, deal with traffic control, weather and physics is a whole new world to those thinking any simulation would prove you as good as a real pilot. That is not even close to what happens up there. And I miss my fights once I'm now a bit older and mostly fighting paper wars...lol
so if a IRL fighter pilot learned to play dcs properly and got used to it, would he have an edge over an average dcs player? would he be able to use some of his IRL experience combined with properly playing DCS to goin advantage?
Actual answer: Because Pilots are trained to instinctively know what their bodies are capable of under duress and conditioned to push that capability as far as they can. Video Game players, are conditioned to push the aircraft to its' limits, without concern for any physical drawback on their body. Planes can handle extreme maneuvers, pilots; not as extreme. And when you can act without concern for ones' own safety in the process; you can outperform those who are concerned.
DCS is a computer system with rules. All systems can be exploited, rules can be bent, or even broken. DCS "pilots" learn to exploit those rules, but they are specific to DCS. A lot of those "exploits" do not exist in the real world.
I think If we entered a large near peer war with massive battles for air supremacy you’d begin to see fighter pilots flying more like dcs pilots. Current pilots are trained to take care of their aircraft so it’ll be operational for longer. Older era pilots were focused on getting the kill and getting home. The plane be damned. Two completely different skill sets and missions.
Because its a digital space which doesn't equate what a real pilot feel. Those manuevers you pulled will damage the airframe and not only that the higher-ups in the navy will fined your ass dead to the ground.
Alot of stuff dont work like its supposed to irl in game. That is one of the biggest issues. If they usee to using aim 190 c for rxample the i game.missle is not the same. Just one example. I see posts and discussion and people telling me about thesw things that fly them. The apache is another example
well, max verstappen, the current formula 1 world champion, doesnt always win in iRacing. He even says that he has better competition in the game than IRL
Ignore those bozos, most of them haven't even sat in an actual maneuvering plane, let alone been behind the controls of one. They can't even begin to imagine what flying a plane is like. In fact, these (what i call flight stick accountants) imagine themselves next best thing to a real pilot because they managed to memorize a manual. Makes me think adult website visitors enjoyers probably think themselves the next Casanova.....
The reality is that your interlocutors making those comments would shit their pants (or perhaps not make it back) if they had to do a local cross country 80 miles and back in a simple Cirrus SR20 with limited training or no training. People think flying is easy, but it just isn't.
A perfect simulator would be indistinguishable from reality, obviously the physical aspect of G forces cannot be simulated, that's where learned habits from the real world that take these forces into account could hamper a pilot who doesn't know the simulations exploits, or limitations to reproduce the real world.
The Darpa test was a joke. Basically the AI just kept pointing the plane at the targeting. No real physics, no limitations on plane (loss of energy) etc. Please don't bring that up again.
![ILLSLICK - THE KING'S LANDING [Freestyle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/feIJJnNkTfk/mqdefault.jpg)
Watch my previous dogfight with a real fighter pilot, F-16 Vs MiG-29: th-cam.com/video/j1WZ-pdV2Wg/w-d-xo.html
Something you probably are not aware of. The USAF/USN put out an email to many current and ex fighter pilots with the realisation that DCS is a pretty good simulator. We have something called page-3 tactics in the community. They fear current/ex fighter pilots might display and fly these profile on DCS. So you won’t be getting real viper pilots fighting like they may want to in ACM/DACT scenarios on DCS.
@@FancyPantsOnFire Interesting to know! But yes of course I completely understand that DCS can be used to display real world tactics to some degree and that anyone who is an active or ex-mil pilot needs to tread very carefully when playing DCS!
What is dcs on
Which FFB stick do you have? I loved them back in the day, but I thought they went out of fashion a decade or more ago.
so much of the shit we pull freely in DCS would be instant career enders IRL, it's not even funny. So obviously dcs players have better chances, since we don't play by the rules, hell we don't even know what most of the rules are. If you treat every airframe you board as disposable, you get to do a lot more stuff, as opposed to say the crew chief pulling the logs and seeing a bunch of overgees on your return from sortie and getting your ass grounded.
Haha yep!
Also, trackIR pilots with 200° fov 😅
I’m pretty sure no one will care about over-stressing the airframe if it means you survive an encounter where another jet is shooting at you.
This is mostly an explanation of "why RFP's suck at BFM" as opposed to "RFP's don't suck at BFM."
If RFP's were only limited IRL by Administrative Protocols, they would dominate in DCS, unrestrained by those protocols.
Yet they don't.
That's the point.
They're just not as "good" as the glazers think they are.
@rmack9226 Well I'd wager a DCS pro in an actual cockpit pulling G's and maintaining situational awareness will do a hell of a lot worse than an actual pilot dicking around in DCS.
Short answer: A real fighter pilot will lose against a DCS player in DCS, for the same reasons a DCS player will lose against a real fighter pilot in the real world
Being used to aircraft behavior is a noticeable advantage.
@@CounterfeitDuck The only way to successfully push it to the limit.
What about real drone fight?
Not me. I would win.
I actually remember watching a video where navy seals, or British SAS actually HATE playing airsoft. Because of one simple reason, people aren't scared to die. Thus, 90% of actual combat and squad tactics don't even apply. Suppression is non-existent, Flanking doesn't work since you can't pin an enemy down. And people don't retreat when clearly outgunned.
They treat it like a COD match instead of an actual battlefield.
Ha that’s really interesting.
Guess its good for fighting total fanatics who will die for their cause....(even though they rarely, if at all, exist these days, no matter what propaganda people use)
@@nathanramage1275yeah. Many exists pre battle but once you are pinned down by artillery people tend to not be as eager to go at the enemy instead of lying in cover
There's a video on youtube of a guy with his friends playing against SAS soldiers in paintball. The SAS guys won all the rounds by being extremely aggressive and just immediately rushing and flanking. When they follow the same rules about "i don't care if i die" they come out on top.
@@CHAOS88100 Which, really shouldn't surprise anyone.
"This airframe is designed for 5000 hours, watch this DCS player reduce this to a fraction of it."
I used to follow a Naval aviator named John "Cat' Chesire who passed away in 2021. He was a TOPGUN graduate, tried out for the Blue angles, and flew for the airlines for over 30 years. He stated when the airlines gave him sim time, he became hamfisted becuse he didn't have the physical feedback.
I followed Cheshire on Quora and even got a few comments from him on my own answers too. always seemed like a fun guy and enthusiastic about flight.
Amazingly well explained! adding to your thoughts, even a real life F-16 pilot, flying an F-16 in DCS would be at a disadvantage due to control inputs not being 1:1 (in terms of force feedback). An interesting match up would be a DCS player vs a real life F-16 pilot... in a legit F-16 simulator used by the USAF for training.
There’s decent pressure stick bases available for the F-16 stick in DCS, so that with some VR would be pretty close!
@@CommandT Last Friday I went to a career expo and met some Navy guys and they had a heli flight sim in VR and the base and motor that changed the angle of the seat based on the helis pitch and roll in the simulator. It was pretty cool and fun to actually feel my input give feedback that changed how I was sitting. The navy guys I talked to were pretty new and said they also played flight sims so I think the newer generation of pilots are more likely to have played a flight sim as well as having it form a major art of their interest in aviation.
p.s. I think i rambled a bit much again
@@CommandT I’ve never once seen a simulator correctly match actual stick pressure. Never even close.
What’s up Tabs love ur content bro
@Stuka838 hey! Thank you!
Imagine implementing a blood pressure and breathing sensors into the DCS, and if you don't handle the higher Gs correctly, it automatically makes a sudden blackout :)
Ha, now that’s immersion 👌
Time to mention ED
doesnt blood pressure increase w/ g load all other things held constant, i don't know how u would make this work, but u could do a g strain manuever and hook up emg sensor to detect ur muscle contraction. You could also save up money and see if u could get a discovery acrobatic flight and try something like the real thing at least once and see how u like it.
@@michelchaman6495 I definitely doesn't thinking through the technical details.
@@istvanbarta neither was i
Why a Real Fighter Pilot Will Lose Against a DCS Player? For same reason DCS player would lose from real pilot in real life.
Wrong! Perhaps most of you don't know about a guy called "Dreger" or something if I don't mistake, who never drove a real car in his life, yet he was winning quite often in a good car racing simulator called "Iracing". Someone put him to a test, just to see how good of a pilot would he be on the track with a real powerful car. The result? The virtual car racing pilot vomitted after the first lap, but asked to try again after getting himself back from sickness. Even though knowing the car's behavior and the same track from the PC sim, he did the next lap at a 2 seconds difference from the world record with the same car on the same track. The guys at the pits quickly told him to get back to the pits, either by being afraid that the virtual pilot can have an accident if he forces the limit or to not dishonor the real pilots even more by showing how good a virtual trained pilot can become.
Now me...! I've been flying realistic flight simulators since I was 9, more than 30 ago, and at 22y I went to an airclub to fly gliders. The first time I was let to take the controls and fly by myself within the few training sessions, the instructor was amazed about how I knew to keep all the references so well like I've been flying IFR since I was born or something. I actually didn't learn anything from what he was talking there, but I've let him do his job. I knew more then he could think of, because he probably never met a glider student who flew thoroughly in flight simulators before. So he asked me where do I know to keep the speed so fixed, the angles and this and that. And I've told him respectfully that I know from PC flight simulators. He said: "NAAAAAAAAAAHHHH! The PC flight sims will make you worse"! I kept myself not to laugh after hearing him say that. Definitely, most of those who never tried a flight or car racing sim have nothing but a wrong imagination and self-induced bad ideas about it and can even hardly accept the reality that a PC gamer playing and correctly learning how to drive a ground or air vehicle can be not just as good as the real trained one, but far better because he jas all the time, lack of stress and pain, lack of guilt feeling if he makes a tiny mistake from which he can even be grounded, lack of fear of getting killed, virtually infinite amount of times that he can reset the scenario he trains for. The PC is any pilot's heaven when it comes to simulators. Yes, when the virtual pilot will be subjected to G forces and stuff he wasn't yet used to, he may feel sick and due to psychological reasons may not initially perform as good as he did in the PC sim, and this is all normal and logic, but after a while of getting used to forces and leave the psychological things off, he can prove what he has learned from the sim, just lime that car racing sim guy did. All you need is a good confirmation and you should get it that simulators make much better pilots than only in real training which is tougher and harder to learn from.
Huh!😂😂😂. And even though the DCS F-18 turns a lot much better in the sim than in reality due to overpowered engines while the Su-27 and Su-33 have actually unserpowered engines compared to the real jets! LMAO! So even with that unfair DCS F-18 advantage, he still lost to the less performant (than in reality) Su-27.
@@Maverickf22flyer You see thing is first you pass physical tests and then you get to learn to be mil pilot. You can think your good all you want but you aint flying sht if you cant cope.
@@Maverickf22flyer. You can’t prove that.
@@Maverickf22flyer Nope, every single DCS player is passing out from high g's. Not a single one, NOT ONE, is handling that. Cope harder loser.
Risk and fear for life is a such a huge factor in these simulations vs real life. I watch this f16 pilot max afterburner play dcs and his play style is much more relaxed and safe compared to how pro dcs players who has the mentality of taking risk because they're safe behind retries.
I think this is the number one reason not a single DCS player (only) can ever state any type of comparison. People truly cannot comprehend how much your survival instincts and physiological effects would play a role in these scenarios.
When the Gs come in, your life is on the line, your adrenaline is through the roof, shit will change your perspective real quick.
finally, someone addressing this... my dad is a fighter pilot who instructs noobie fighter pilots in all forms of air combat (air to air, air to ground, formation flying, BVR, BFM, etc.), and he's a REALLY good fighter pilot. He is NOT good at video games and would have a steep learning curve if he picked up DCS (hence, why he hasn't tried it yet). Not only would he have to learn a new aircraft (because DCS planes are NOT real-life planes believe it or not), he'd have to learn DCS mechanics, aerodynamics, ballistics, strategies, etc. to do well. Fighter pilot skills don't directly translate to DCS. Even if my dad flew his plane, the F-18, he'd have to learn it all over again because it's DCS, not real life.
I'm sick of DCS players on their high horses accusing real fighter pilots of sucking because they lose in a game they almost never play, while simultaneously thinking they'd make great fighter pilots (they would not, real-world combat scenarios, tactics, and training are FAR more in-depth, involved and intricate, if not entirely different, from DCS). In fact, if a DCS player became a real fighter pilot, he'd have to unlearn almost everything he learned in DCS and then train for real, from the very beginning. Yet for some reason, because they fly a simulator that has some imitations of some real-life planes, they think they know everything.
Not to mention you're under constant 1g in DCS
would it not translate to unmanned aircraft?
@Remi-bo7tn Depends on the quality of the simulation, the unqualified opinion of world militaries seem to be that sticking good video game players on drones works far better than anyone else in the same role.
Makes sense really, the only thing riding on that drone is hardware, no personal immediate threat to ones life, this is a Huge deal in how you approach and train for something, you're not going to do a five foot pass at mach one three on someone just to 'get him' when failure means instant death.
Now a drone however! The controls map quite nicely, you're not in life or death and you can sim train it far better even with real hardware for ungodly hours because the hours cost a fraction of what a planes operating costs do.
The pilots have nothing to fear, right up until someone makes a reliably operable and lower cost drone that can go toe to toe with a real fighter craft, at that point they are screwed, the math is simple, the pool of great gamers vs those who would make a good pilot is wildly different, without physical requirements beoynd coordinated arms and moderate eyesight you can filter from pool of million ok to great fellas for some truly great operators.
Wow, people are soo full of themselves. Thinking 1500 on a game is even close to 20 hr in the air on board with actual systems that have to be managed. Most dont even have proper communication Etiquette or know how to even understand the comms.
Exactly 😂
These gamers think they’re on the same level and it’s hilarious. Apples and oranges.
@@CramcrumBrewbringerits the same thing with sim racers lol
@@solinvictus2045 Yep! I think racing games are fun, got myself a wheel and pedals for my pc. But I know it’s a damn game and doesn’t translate to real life skill.
@@solinvictus2045 It's actually pretty commonly said that racing is a lot closer than other game types. It's still a different skillset to go from sim racing to reality, but there's good reason why a lot of real racers adore sim racing, and sim racers sometimes become actual racers (I know one dude who got into kart racing and actually gets sponsors)
Wait, insulting eachothers moms and questioning eachothers sexual orientation isn't proper comms etiquette?
it might also be important to recognize that the planes themselves might also behave slightly differently to their real life counterparts, as a lot of that info is classified and most of DCS is built on a 'best guess' of what the aircraft are capable of.
my dad is a real fighter pilot, and has many friends who are pilots who play DCS... they are different in a lot of ways. Yes, because a lot is indeed classified, but also because it's a game and not entirely comparable to real life. Even the training simulators can't capture everything a real-life pilot needs for training. Not to say that they don't imitate the real-life aircraft in a lot of ways, they do, but at the end of the day, it is a virtual representation of what the real plane might be like, it is not the actual thing.
Sidewinder had an experienced of fighting real pilot in DCS. After 2-3 rounds real pilot started to kick his @ss in every engagement.
Adding to this the review of the actual pilot was interesting. Particularly in regards to fatigue induced by high g manœuvres, engagement rules, and other physical limitations...
@@CounterfeitDuck that perfectly displays an often overlooked aspect of fighter pilots, that makes them fighter pilots: the mental factors, their characters. Being an actual fighter pilot is more than just a job of flying hi-tech jet planes and knowing how to flip switches in a cockpit, it's a lifestyle that requires people with the proper mindsets and character to do it and complete their tasks as efficiently as possible. These are the same people who responsibly get up at 0500 every morning and take care of everything they need to, have their studies and etiquettes absolutely nailed down, and generally are great, very hard working folks because that's the type of people combat careers require. The real pilot bluntly kicked GS's ass after those few rounds because pilots are people who LIVE to analyze their situations, learn quick, and adapt. And that's precisely what happened in that video.
Also, it is good to mention that in real life or death situation, there is stress. A lot of it. A DCS player would forget all of his play in an instance because he would be stressed out. Fighter pilots are trained for the stress. The whole training is made just to address the stress. It has been since the napoleonic era when they found out that on the battlefield 95% of the soldier that score the best score in the training miss their shots.
rumor has it certain pilots also aren't actually allowed to showcase their full capabilities to the public. Something about the fundamentals of warfare taught by some guy in China thousands of years ago discussing how people not knowing how capable you really are puts you at an advantage?
That's a very bad excuse
So what if a DCS elite player remote controlled a real jet, and fought against real pilots?
This is the future.
Ha
Several militaries in the world use DCS as part of their actual training (because airframes are humongously more expensive). If not DCS it's a simulator of a similar caliber. While gamers can get proficent at certain stuff due to vast discrepancy of hours put in you can't replace real world experience. I'd wager 99% of gamers just don't have the body that could whitstand 80% of the maneuvers they do in game. And most of those would never have the body capable of whitstanding that even with training due to genetics, age, lifestyle choices etc.
Another thing is that dogfighting in modern 4+ and 5th gen fighters is like learning hand to hand combat for the infanterie. It's great training but it's the last thing you would actually want to do in an active warzone. Being so low and slow would make you easy pray for uncountable number of weapons systems, even a mk1 eyeball on an ww2 era anti air gun has a chance against a jet going 200-300 knots under 1000 feet of altitude.
Modern air to air combat is all about electronics, missiles, SEAD, radar, information processing and so on. And mission profiles vary wildly, from "peaceful" flyover as a show of force to unguided rocket lobing Russian style, to anything in between.
I think you meant real militaries use some sim products that are sold to them by ED, not DCS itself but yes, I get the idea :)
@@CommandT I truly meant actual DCS, comercially available, same as shown on screen. It's much cheaper and doesn't suffer from trade embargoes and whatnot. The point of it is not perfect accuracy but just to get the recruits to have a general feeling of how flying is supposed to work.
Dude falcon bms simulates the f16 better though lol but no video game will ever repeat full on real life performance and then we also have limitations of coding and computers themselves too etc etc
Wait wait wait, so, you're argument is that even if I fly long haul flights in FS2020 I can't access the company lounge at the airport?
I believe it might be a struggle, yes.
Anyone who's driven a sim should realize why it has ZERO to do with real life.
A DCS player having to endure 1.01 G in a real aircraft: "I don't feel so well"
For real though, ive only had to deal with 4g in a plane before, and you feel *heavy*. Its difficult to maintain your focus and freely move around to look arpund you and stuff when you do encounter those gs. I cant even imagine what 9 or 10g must feel like.
Reverse the comparison. A DCS player with 10,000 hours flying the F-16 "should" beat a real life F-16 fighter pilot with only 500 hours in the F-16.
See how infantile the commenters are criticizing the real like fighter pilot for losing to the DCS player? Both comparisons are beyond ludicrous.
Prime example Command T, how once again, there is ZERO value coming from the peanut gallery.
But let me give you the real state of affairs in the world of the fighter pilot. My father flew the CF-5, CF-104, F-4, T-33, T-144, C-130, and others. He wouldn't waste a single breath playing DCS; complete waste of lifeforce. Why would he? Tell me how he would in DCS, duplicate flying 700 kts @ 50 feet in the CF-104, with MIG-21s/23s chasing him or trying to intercept him, ready to deliver the nuclear bomb in the centerline of his jet, followed by an ejection and "walk home" due to the one way nature of the CF-104's Nuclear Strike role in the NATO's structure of air command, which essentially was a "one way" mission???
Dad had a posting to S.H.A.P.E. Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe in Mons, Belgium. One of his week-long NATO courses was in Oberammergau, Southern Bavaria, Germany. This meant a high speed run on the Autobahn! Nope. He never broke 120 kph or 75 mph or 65 knots. When I asked him why he was driving so slow, he replied; "Son, I have flown 750+knots, (863 mph or 1390 kph) 50 feet off the ground. What possible thrill could driving 150 or 180 kph give me?"
He made his point. We drove so slowly that day, the speed difference between us and the cars in the left lane was so great, our minivan was rocking from side to side. We did pass 3 things that day... a grandfather and his grandson riding bicycles and a dump truck.
1:30 These wide shots are great, fully communicating the geometry of the whole engagement.
3:48 that is savage lol 🤣🤣🤣
Yep! 😅 Coming in the next dogfight video! Stay tuned!
Well, Até (former SEM and Rafale pilot) did kick Growling Sidewinder ass 😅
Real soldiers regularly kick airsfot players ass.
I do fly DCS with friend (we are both in VR) who is a former Mirage F1 pilot IRL and I can tell you that he is very good in energy management and overall flying...but he is also an old school geek.
So I would rather say that it depends if the RL fighter pilot is used to the virtual environment or not ? (By that I mean desktop combat flight simulator)
Absolutely! My point was actually more that DCS players can be very good and real fighter pilots can easily find a match for themselves online and be outclassed too. In DCS I mean. Being a real fighter pilot does not necessarily give them an advantage against good DCS players!
@@CommandTthe sheer amount of merges gamers can can get in just provides a lot of experience that you cant get irl. If a talented dcs dogfighter were to make it through pilot training, i think they would be deadly.
@@CommandT Yep, but in this days, an increasing number of real fighters pilots have prior gaming combat flight simulator experience when joining their Air Force, and they are able to bring back into the game what they learned IRL. These ones are really good.
In the French gaming community, I have accounts of real pilots still playing BMS or DCS in virtual wings, some of them do it especially for the experience of large group, which is not that easy to organise during daily work.
The French Air Force invested into DCS/ MCS (pro military variant of DCS) with the goal to be able to simulate large COMAO at cheap cost.
They are developing their own modules p, outside of DCS market, to virtually replicate the French Air Force.
@@JoJo-vm8vkYea, simulators are good tools when incorporated correctly. I’m happy that they are getting better and better and us in the general public get to enjoy using some of them to fulfill our aviation fantasies :)
We making it out of floggit with this one 🙀
I think the fact that a sim doesn't put your life on the line from pulling crazy maneuvers is probably one of the biggest differences, or at least on par with the g forces.
I know its a little bit different thing (or at least the approach to your words), but this reminds me for that: I read somewhere, the WW1 or WW2 (I can't remember) fighter pilots who knows more about their aircraft in relation of repair, maintenance, structural knowledge, etc they wasn't dare to pull more Gs in combat, therefore they were "not that good" pilots (which is obviously not true, but most times it wasn't effective in combat). I think today's pilot's training including more detailed knowledge about their aircraft, than the pilots from the older times or a DCS "pilot", therefore their muscle memories are different to eg keep the structural integrity too and survive a fight than a DCS player who just "push the cobra button".
Maybe back in the day but these days with FBW you just pull as much as you want, no issue for the aircraft, unless you’re in something older of course like the F-15 or F-5
Great vid, but a couple of points from my perspective being both a former fighter pilot AND a DCS player. The two are not mutually exclusive which seems a minor point and does not invalidate what you are saying but it does make the distinction less important. I think that there are many lessons for fighter pilots which can be learned in DCS, you mentioned many of them but more so as a reason that it's an apples to oranges comparison and not as a great training tool when used in the correct context. For example, it was mentioned that bubbles, floors, over G's and various prohibited maneuvers are used in DCS all the time and that is true. However there is goodness in trying them, seeing what the sight picture is and how it might look/work. Obviously DCS is not a perfect replication of the various aircraft so those lessons have to taken with a grain of salt. Still, there are great lessons. Here's one, and it's a simple idea but it has really made me think hard. In real life if we hit the floor, say on a floor save where we just go 50 feet below the floor alt that is a floor kill and a knock it off. We have essentially "lost" that engagement by dying at the floor. It is easy to sort of gaff that off, no one really died, we'll go back and debrief it and find the errors that got us there and try to correct. What's interesting in DCS is you explode in a fireball, and this made me think about floor transitions in a new light. Conceptually I understood well what it means but fighter pilots like to get every advantage so messing around near the floor is one of those things we cut pretty close. But when you do it in DCS there is a significant visual aspect with the ground rushing up and making a close floor saves take on a new aspect. There are many other examples. Anyway, there's hours and hours of discussion about these concepts and like I said great vid, glad I found your channel. - Guido
Ah yes, agreed! Thanks for the comment! 👍🫡
Hello from Mariupol, Command T.
Really interesting to see you replicate in DCS 2 plane strike tactic that RuAF uses.
Su-34 with UMPK/UMPB and Su-35S with anti-radiation missiles. As Su-34 RWR is practically nonexistent in current environment, they(34&35S) have to fly really close for 35s to detect SAM radar beam directed at Su-34. This, as far as I know, it only applies to older SAMs that do not use track-while-scan missile targeting. Really interested in how effective that would be in DCS.
Interesting. Not sure we have accurate enough systems and models for the Su-34 and Su-35 in DCS though 😕
Real
stay safe out there man
Yeah this is stupid. Dcs is a game, there’s no strict guidelines (military / FFA) safety, bfm sets, etc. let’s not forget real fighter pilots KNOW their jet they fly, the curriculum and tempo are extremely high.
Reverse the role, a real fighter pilot would destroy us in a real jet, as you’d be so overwhelmed with how strict the rules and training regs are, we’d end up in prison, let’s just put it that way.
I love this type of content - DCS is fun, real life fighter jets were never an option for me, and I want to be aware of where simulator reality bleeds off into fantasy! One of the fighter pilot TH-camrs was talking about aerial refueling and how IRL there are so many seat of the pants acceleration and deceleration cues you just don’t get in the sim.
I get a lot of DCS stuff on my feed even though I have only watched it. I think the biggest benefit for a real pilot would be cockpit familiarity in flight training or B school. Many DCS fights start at the merge. In the jet I drove for over 20 years, everyone is dead before the merge, but if not I am going to significantly overmatch energy and come down from the cons at the merge to control the fight. Pretty much every merge I've seen in DCS is a bubble violation. In any given airspeed, config and alt i can pull an F-15C into a double beeper by feel alone, in DCS those years of feel and connection dont exist, which is probably why it's easier for the video author's pilot friend to fly a completely different aircraft in DCS. (My guess is his friend is Gripen or Typhoon driver based on accent) Also the missile modeling is based on publicly released stat sheets, which I would suggest taking with a grain of salt.
You can’t hear the accent of my friend here so I have no idea how you’ve made those assumptions! Plus Typhoon and Gripen are based in very different counties!
@@CommandT I used the ancient version of friend that implies a real life connection.
ehh fact that this is surprising is weird
it goes in reverse too, in fact with other games it works too, a dcs player would get shit on in war thunder. simply because the game works differently
I think this has been proven aplenty yeah
Great explanation. Many other real pilots that have channels have Sid the same! No feel, visual cues and as you said no Gs so it's a different world. I think many DCS players just have never experienced it. I fortunately have one in a back seat ride in my airforce days .. !
not even mentioning that in real life
dogfighting is not as important of a skill over understanding and using your aircraft systems and sensors to their fullest
because air combat has long since moved away from dogfighting once we started getting better radars and better missiles
its always the ones who know the least about a subject that act like experts
great video
4:55 Well a DCS player don't have to think about geopolitics :P
I think it's pretty obvious and really the main thing is modern war is sorting dogfighting out, in the modern age it's really about the BVR combat and not the dogfights
I think It’ll depend on the conflict and the opponents but at this very point yes. That’s true
The lack of fear of death or discharge is the defining factor
I would never lose a fight against a real fighter pilot in a real plane.
Simply because i wouldn't fit in the cockpit. Deal with it fighter pilots, i'll stay in the hangar eating cheetos.
You have to remember in games you don’t die so you push and push without second thoughts. In real life, you get only one chance.
I see simulators no different than learning from a book or a classroom, one gets to understand the principles and basics, but it’s only when one leaves the classroom and gets into the real working world they understand how good they are.
Also, I find it interesting to watch two real life fighter pilots dogfight in DCS - like Mover and Gonky. Both flew F-18s, and have similar DCS experience. It seems like better feedback on the sim pros and cons.
Ppl on internet is so dumb. Hope theyre proud of being pointed out on this vid.
A real fighter pilot is physically fit and trained to handle GeForce. A DCS pilot straight into a real cockpit will crumble 😂 wtf is this video
Yes if you go to flight Simulator cockpit, used for training Pilots you would need 20 hours of assisted learning to just take off without crashing.
Note that professionals generally dominate in any sort of team v team scenario, purely based on their communication. Sure, an e-sports team might have even better comms (specifically developed for their game), and might thus win, but you take 10 random HATO pilots (or infantry in ARMA), and 10 random players (even top 10% of the playerbase), and the HATO team will pretty much always win.
Next time this guy will be surprised for getting his face filled up with bruises after he leaves his basement and steps into a real ring.
Of course with all your hotkeys 20 monitors and stick curves, he can still get better at the game but you will never be able to do what he does.
These explanations are contributing factors, but the dominant reason is the military recruits from a smaller pool, which makes the bell curve narrower. There are plenty of zillion hours gamers that are still terribad.
the same reason why real life racing drivers lose against sim racers all the time
Exactly an example:
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Bottas beaten by a sim racer at Race of Champions | FOS Future Lab. A team of sim racers has sprung a surprise in the 2023 Race of Champions by beating a squad of F1 drivers in the Race of Champions Nations Cup - winning a knockout match for the first time since sim racers were invited to the competition in 2018.
```
all you told is correct, but in my opinion DCS has problems in transonic areas and second segment areas, you can glide way more than the reality, this is a drag problem, for sure you will ask your friend and he will tells you the same if he already tested, DCS has drag just with AoA like reality, but can't simulated in DCS just with Induce drag and parasite drag, the coders has to manege with another tools to simulated the reality. I can tell that do a dogfight F-1 versus F-1, full internal fuel , in my opinion will be 75% real, of course the F-1 lacked the second segment drag either, but mergi g at 15K like in the reality, it would be interesting the results. your friend will calculate the turns like reality in this type of planes in DCS.
The F-18 made a mistake at 6:36 letting you went behind its 3/9 line, and this advantage you had led you to win agaist the fighter pilot. Besides using vertical scan, you can also use the helmet mounted sight to lock the target. FC4 bundle is $9.99 now. Maybe you can buy that package to do MiG-15 vs F-86 dogfight with your fighter pilot friend.
10:06 landing an airliner both in RL and SIM means nothing. A better example would be “Stick and rudder”, “Instrument flying” and “IFR procedures execution” skills. Regarding these specific 3 abilities if a SIM pilot performs better than a 20.000h RL Captain then he is 100% better than the RL Captain. I am a RL Captain with 20.000 hours.
Lading any airplane technically is “stick and rudder” 😉
@@CommandT sticking a frozen meal in a microwave and pressing start technically is cooking 😉
You are much more accustomed to the setup, to the sim and its quirks, have all the buttons and sensitivities setup as you like it prolly, used to the scenarios, the abilities of the planes as modelled, the way weapons, countermeasures, radars, terrain and masking behave and how to game that, all the shit. Its no wonder really. In dcs we can do shit that would most likely be inadvisable in a real engagement and are prolly discouraged in irl training, couse the cost/benefit analysis of doing it irl as a standard doctrine just doesn't work out, all just to get that little bit of edge, he has to mentally fight his training to take advantage of those i'd assume. 1v1s in a sterile "fair" environments with no wingmen are prolly rare too in training i guess ? Irl you would never want things to degrade to such an even scenario i'd say.
Still tho its a cool thing to engage in a sim, you can try so many things which could prolly prove impractical or improbable irl for one reaon or another, just to see what happens and think more laterally you could say ?
I'd imagine flying an F-16 would be different than a Typhoon or Gripen.
DCS can only model their planes off what is publicly available information. The people who actually fly them in real life know what they’re truly capable of. I’ve seen videos of real pilots saying the planes in DCS feel sluggish, don’t accelerate as fast, or pull as hard as they do in real life.
People don't get it, the sim pilot has a lot of advantages, firstly the sim pilot has to learn how to get acustomed to using a screen, and not just turning their head, that's something a IRL pilot will struggle with, secondly you can spend a LOT more time on DCS than a IRL pilot will get in terms of flight hours, and lastly a real fighter pilot is going to be trained to treat their planes in a way that prolongs their service life, a sim pilot doesn't care about that, so the IRL pilot is probably going to subconsiously stick to that training.
Its very similar to Sim Racing. Yes an irl driver will be quick in a sim. But, (especially if theyre old school), theyll be outclassed by the best sim racers out there because its not the environment that they excel in.
NATO-Firepilot bro is on recruit mode.
With racing sims, long time IRL racers complain all the time about the lack of cues they use IRL. It can be a pretty rough transition into a simulator. If you didn't learn to fly on the information in the sim you'll always be slower until you figure out how to relying on more visual cues. Some drivers are great in both, but I always feel like the sim is like driving with one of your major senses blinded.
Only in the pc. When the G's start to climb and conscience starts to abandon you let us see how you'd do those manoevers.
Arguably it's not just that real fighter pilots aren't as practiced with the game, which is different from real life, but that they can't afford to become that practiced at the game. Because the game does not reflect real life, so any bad habits they learn in the game will need to be actively suppressed when flying the real thing. And maybe some people can compartmentalize the two so easily that it's not an issue, but I sure as hell wouldn't risk it - not while flying a multi-million dollar plane with lives on the line. And to argue that there's no risk of bleed over between the two is to argue that all the time they spend in the simulator also won't translate at all to real flying.
There's a big difference between a real pilot and a player. A player just makes low consequence decisions while sitting at home. A fighter pilot makes real decisions while actually experiencing the direct effect of those decisions. With their careers or their lives (or others') as forfeit if they mess up.
Video games, even 'simulation' games, are meant to do just that.. simulate enough to make a sufficiently entertaining experience. They're fun, and can allow folks to imagine, but nobody's blacking out on their gaming chair because of g-forces, no-matter how hard you 'hic' in the turn to pretend :P
the best simple argument for this: go watch the virtual f1 races from covid.
Yep
Reminds me of VR shooters. In Onward VR we have alot of Milsim communities which often have actual service members playing. It can be good fun, but even in a slower, more tactical / "realistic" game like Onward, the strategies they teach are absolutely terrible strategies compared even to the ones used in pubs.
You also forgot one important aspect. While the aircraft in DCS are very well simulated, they are not 100% spot on in how they handle etc. The aircraft do actually behave differently to a real aircraft, no mater how much work goes into creating the best simulated experience.
True!
They’re simulated consistently but very very very different from real life. It’s a joke.
Somebody please send this video to Sean Strickland. (MMA fighter who calls out Navy SEALS to spar in MMA).
The absolute worst bottom tier NBA player would absolutely trash the best amateur basketball player you know. A good similar analogy to a DCS SIM player versus IRL pilot. But that does not underplay the fact that simulated experience can be massively beneficial for real world pilots. Because even in training you could never dream of getting into as many simulated fights as you could on DCS.
In real life in modern jets, if you got into circle fight you already messed up bigtime.
You see,
Real Fighter Pilots have an instinct that most DCS pilots don't
It's called Self Preservation
04:30 fighter flights is not even close from the best sim flight. That includes real simulators. They are a very good tool for initial and emergency training especially because there you may make mistakes and deal with issues that will kill you when skin is in the game.
I used to fly MSFS for years prior became a pilot and just stopped it when accepted as fighter pilot to start my training.
As you told leading a formation, deal with traffic control, weather and physics is a whole new world to those thinking any simulation would prove you as good as a real pilot. That is not even close to what happens up there.
And I miss my fights once I'm now a bit older and mostly fighting paper wars...lol
How about UAV jets that is operated by DCS Players vs Real pilot? ;) Would love to see this IRL
so if a IRL fighter pilot learned to play dcs properly and got used to it, would he have an edge over an average dcs player? would he be able to use some of his IRL experience combined with properly playing DCS to goin advantage?
To have a better comparison why didn't you use the same aircrafts?
these are really cool i really enjoy these
Great to hear!
Flying a real airplane as opposed to a computer simulation on a 2D screen/screens/ are in no way similar. A valid comparison is not possible.
Actual answer: Because Pilots are trained to instinctively know what their bodies are capable of under duress and conditioned to push that capability as far as they can.
Video Game players, are conditioned to push the aircraft to its' limits, without concern for any physical drawback on their body.
Planes can handle extreme maneuvers, pilots; not as extreme.
And when you can act without concern for ones' own safety in the process; you can outperform those who are concerned.
The Flanker is such a thing of beauty! It's such a shame that ED massively screwed it over!
It wasn't DCS... it was threats from the RU gov.
In what way have they “screwed it over”?!
he flys a typhoon in real life.. you previously said this.
DCS is a computer system with rules. All systems can be exploited, rules can be bent, or even broken. DCS "pilots" learn to exploit those rules, but they are specific to DCS. A lot of those "exploits" do not exist in the real world.
I think If we entered a large near peer war with massive battles for air supremacy you’d begin to see fighter pilots flying more like dcs pilots.
Current pilots are trained to take care of their aircraft so it’ll be operational for longer.
Older era pilots were focused on getting the kill and getting home. The plane be damned.
Two completely different skill sets and missions.
Because its a digital space which doesn't equate what a real pilot feel. Those manuevers you pulled will damage the airframe and not only that the higher-ups in the navy will fined your ass dead to the ground.
Alot of stuff dont work like its supposed to irl in game. That is one of the biggest issues. If they usee to using aim 190 c for rxample the i game.missle is not the same. Just one example. I see posts and discussion and people telling me about thesw things that fly them. The apache is another example
No way, a person that plays a video game a lot is better than someone who doesn't play that video game often?
Can you please do a video of your Track IR setup? Mine seems to be quite buggy
Dayum...now I want to go home and rethink my life.
Soo...u don't want no deathsticks ? 😎
if he fly's a F/A - 18C aka legacy then he most likely is in RCAF, but if he fly's Superhornets then im not sure.
He flies neither of those jets.
well, max verstappen, the current formula 1 world champion, doesnt always win in iRacing. He even says that he has better competition in the game than IRL
Indeed!
its the difference between a theoretical dogfight vs a real dogfight.
make me wonder about a future when human using fighter jet that does not need a pilot and control by a gamer from far distance :O
That’s basically current drone warfare in Ukraine
Probably is going to change air power a lot in the future
Dcs pilots don’t feal the g’s and can learn to do maneuvers in dcs that will never be the same
Ignore those bozos, most of them haven't even sat in an actual maneuvering plane, let alone been behind the controls of one. They can't even begin to imagine what flying a plane is like. In fact, these (what i call flight stick accountants) imagine themselves next best thing to a real pilot because they managed to memorize a manual. Makes me think adult website visitors enjoyers probably think themselves the next Casanova.....
The reality is that your interlocutors making those comments would shit their pants (or perhaps not make it back) if they had to do a local cross country 80 miles and back in a simple Cirrus SR20 with limited training or no training. People think flying is easy, but it just isn't.
A perfect simulator would be indistinguishable from reality, obviously the physical aspect of G forces cannot be simulated, that's where learned habits from the real world that take these forces into account could hamper a pilot who doesn't know the simulations exploits, or limitations to reproduce the real world.
What does "BFM" mean? Google isn't helping...😕
Basic Fighter Manouvers
hey!! I'm up to try!!
The Darpa test was a joke. Basically the AI just kept pointing the plane at the targeting. No real physics, no limitations on plane (loss of energy) etc. Please don't bring that up again.
We must be talking about different DARP AI! That is not what I remember.
you just remember wrong, confuse is right@@CommandT
But conventional war is going quickly remote and ai drones
Just say your friend flies a 10th gen jet for Antarctica 😂