SPOILER WARNING: In case the title and the topic and the description and my community post didn't make it clear, this could spoil potential future House of the Dragon plotlines if you haven't read Fire & Blood.
The books have emphasized that the Valyrians were shepherds before they tamed dragons. Nettles could’ve been a regular person who just did it the old fashioned way.
I've always seen the story between Nettles and Daemon as an old creep grooming a young girl, as he did with Rhaenyra. That's why the story seems somehow convincing to me, because the way he acts with Nettles is very close to the way he acted with Rhaenyra. And honestly, Rhaenyra turning jealous wife kid of makes sense to me because at that time, she's losing everything and she really seems to care about Daemon. She might fear of losing him as a woman who doesn't want to loose her love, or as a queen who is scared of loosing a strong player in her game. In any way i don't think the relationship Daemon had with Nettles was safe for her : he is not the caring lover type (and she's a teen) and he's not the caring father type either. It's really this that interests me more than Rhaenyra's reactions : why Nettles and what she was to Daemon. But all the theories you have in this video are so interesting, i can't wait to see the answers of HOTD. Thank you for the video ♥
Thank. You. It's refreshing to see others being honest about this relationship. I was--well am--really disliked among GOT fans, particularly those who are hard-core Dany stans. The fact that the entire Daemon and Nettles relationship is referenced as them being lovers more than once outside of Fire and Blood reinforces what I've said for years about this fandom. They don't care about the story. It's about what they want. They're like children throwing tantrums when things don't go their way. Nettles hasn't even shown up and the hatred towards her character would lead you to believe that she killed Luke with her bare hands.
She was 17 and extremely experienced (17 is older than a woman in medieval age) women would get married at 14 at that time and were mature enough to lead houses and bannermen judging ages based on our time would be a lot less than Intelligent tbh because then why aren't we judging everyone else such as rhaenyra sending a 14 year old boy as a war messenger, or targeryans marrying their siblings trying to pass on judgements of character based on our well developed morals 4000 years later is a very stupid idea daemon isn't a good person at all blood and cheese is enough of an attestment to that but nettles is not one of his evil doings but rather one of the rare times he was actually kind
@@lillypharaoh5945 - I agree with you. I mean 14 years olds were still not fully mature and I don't think they could manage whole households, let alone armed forces like an experienced adult. But most were anytime more mature than many 30 years olds today. They needed to grow up quickly and couldn't be babies till retirement. As for Nettles she sure is very young but BY NO MEANS a child or innocent anymore. She sure knows what she is doing getting with Daemon and she profits from it, too. And yes, she is the one case where Daemon shows his good side and in more than one way. Which still doesn't make him a good character. No matter the age, Daemon is a prince and Nettles a nobody from the gutter with an according looks, behaviour and lifestyle. Everyone in Westeros would have tried to get with him just like people try to get with the rich and famous (and royals!) today. Modern sensibilities people are so daft.
King Jaehaerys was very concerned about dragons hatching in Essos after Elissa Farman stole and sold Dreamfyre's eggs. His sister Rhaena also left Casterly Rock because of how "greedily" Lannister's were looking at Dremfyre's eggs. They didn't seem to think it was impossible for an non-Targaryen to hatch or ride a dragon, so Nettles not being a dragonseed seems very plausible. It would be a bad look for that to get out after all of the Targaryen exceptionalism propaganda.
I think it is possible for non-Valyrians to ride dragons. But I do also think that it is just easier for Valyrians to do it and incredibly hard for non-Valyrians. I mean, in thousands of years of Valyrian rule in Essos and later Targaryen rule in Westeros, I can only recall one dragon rider whose Valyrianess was contested, so.
@@SRosenberg203 I sincerely doubt anyone since the doom of valyria except maybe aenar the exile and his immediate children understood everything about the dragons.
I honestly blame the halo effect for the reason why people think Daemon is morally good person. A lot of people saw Matt Smith in a Targaryen wig and let the fact that he is attractive carry the morality of his entire character. It's annoying. That being said, I'm not wishing that kind of grooming on Nettles. I could barely watch the screen when it was Rhaenyra.
Idk why people keep saying that other people think Daemon is “good” … idk anyone who thinks he’s a good guy, I just know lots of people who thought his portrayal in the show was sexy and well acted lol. They want to side with him because they like his character, not because they think the character is a good guy.
Hmmm I think that would just make him more sympathetic... the tale of his relationship with Nettles is the most uncharacteristically sympathetic thing he does in his whole life. Meanwhile in House of the Dragon we've seen him kill innocent people for very small gains for himself. Literally murdered his wife in cold blood just so he could marry again. I don't think fucking a 16 year old will dissuade anyone... especially since he's already fucked a 17 year old Rhaenyra in the show...
Also, Stinging Nettles are a small scrawny plant that has a wide range healing properties, and is found basically everywhere, to the point of being common, but like blueberries, only properly thrive in the wild.
Now I actually love the idea of Nettles not even being a Targaryen or a witch, and just a regular person. Maybe even just descendant somehow of another dragon lord family from old Valyria who had bastards somewhere, and just no one knows, not even her, I mean, the Targaryens weren't even the strongest dragon lords in Valyria, and I am pretty sure they all had bastard sons and daughter around, so... maybe somewhere around there and so, not even being a Targaryen or a with Nettles has that drop of dragon lord blood and she doesn't even know it, which would mean there are plenty of others who have it too and could potentially claim a dragon
In the lore to this point, you have to be a dragonseed and not too far away from the Targaryens, since we know of Targaryen relatives which were 1/8 targaryen not being able to tame dragons since their blood was very diluted. This means that Nettles most likely was a bastard of one of the Kids of Jaehaerys I, or Jaehaerys himself.
@@Alejojojo6 it never says they have to be Targaryen, just that they're the dragon lord family that's left. We don't even know the other ones who were even stronger than the Targaryens
She could either be a Targaryen, Velaryon or Celtigar. Theyre ancestry is from Old Valyria. Most likely shes a bastard Targaryen since theyre closest to being dragon lords. In the books every person who wasnt a dragonseed got torn apart so no normal person is gonna approach and live taming a dragon.
@@bichiAllen yeah I read that part as well but I think it's unlikely. The reason being dragons are massive news anywhere on the planet of GOT. The chance of them being anywhere else is slim but you never know.
You brought up some great points. Reading F&B comes off like self-insert fanfiction like you said. I often wondered is everything said about Rhaenyra true, or are they doing like with most female leaders throughout history and making her look more insane than what was true? (Not saying that all female leaders were angels or anything, but that historians have an...interesting way of remembering them.) Also let's be honest, Nettles posing a threat as proof that you don't need Valyrian blood in order to be a dragonrider is a way more interesting reason for Rhaenyra to want her out of the picture, than being jealous because she's Daemon's current flavor of the week.
Yeah, I find F&B's account of the Dance to be dubious to say the least, I mean Westeros aggressively excludes women from any kind of power, so I find the notion that A. Rhaenyra and Alicent were the complete driving force behind the Dance AND B. the whole world was ripped apart because of it to be a little too convenient to all of the people who would undoubtedly want to say "see, this is why women can't inherit or do anything important ever".
@@HillsAliveYT I feel the exact same way. Like the account of the dinner that apparently gave birth to the name "The Greens" and "The Blacks" was so funny when I actually sat down and read it. Nothing actually happens at the dinner, but the maesters are essentially equating two women wearing different colored dresses as the big call to war. It couldn't be that they were simply representing their house colors because there was a tourney earlier that day, noooo they MUST be secretly declaring war against each other lol.
The fact that Nettles fed Sheepstealer before each ride is telling. Perhaps Targaryans really do have a magical connection to the dragons, and because Nettles doesn't have that, keeping Sheepstealer fed is how she makes up for it and stops Stealer from eating her
I think she kept feeding her dragon sheep because the both of them enjoyed the "ritual" of feeding before a flight. And many people forget that regular humans can tame dragons too. It's rare, but it's possible. The first dragon riders before Valyria were regular farmers, nothing special about them. Overtime it just became easier to connect with dragons because of all the magic that was being practiced.
@@BleedingGrafitti Regular Humans CANNOT tame dragons. That's on the lore. Its Impossible, the only way is by bonding your blood (and thus your descendants) through blood with the Dragons, thus why no one other than the Targaryens could ever ride dragons. If regular humans could tame dragons, the whole Lore would not have sense, the Targaryens would always be in paranoia of having the Dragons without riders tamed by a regular human.... which is nonsense.
@@BleedingGrafitti The first dragon riders were shephers (not farmers) and they where 40 of them, who made a blood ritual that allowed them to bond, it wasnt like they simply found the dragons and trained them... It was done through blood (probably a human sacrifice), and with eggs not with adult dragons. They bonded through blood, thus why the bond is passed through generations. And those 40 gave birth to the 40 valyrian families that ruled Valyria. One of them, that of the Targaryens.
I think fans of the show who honestly believe that the relationship between Nettles and Daemon will be platonic or a father-daughter relationship are being ridiculous. With the way they left Daemon’s character in S1 (uncaring, war-hungry, abusive, hyper-sexual, violent etc.) I highly doubt that Daemon’s lust and maltreatment of Rhaenyra will end with Nettles. Whether the relationship be pedophilic, aggressive, possessive etc. I do believe it will be an appropriate and abusive relationship just like all of Daemon’s relationships thus far. EDIT: I also like the idea of Nettles not be being a witch or a Targaryen bastards pretty cool. It would be hilarious watching die hard Targ nation stans lose it if the show runners did that.
I have to agree with your summary of how they left Daemon at the end of season 1. It was also pretty clear that he gave himself a reason to find his attraction to Rhaenyra waning. He doesn’t like that she seems to have adopted his brother’s “obsession” with dragon dreams. Or the fact that she now has power over him, and is in the position he has wanted to have for years.
It would be soo funny if Nettles is not Targaryen or a witch. Just regular girl. It would actually make sense as to why Daemon was attracted to her sense this regular girl actually somehow tamed a dragon.
She's probably related to some other dragonlord family that died out in the doom, and her complexion tells me she's from Essos or has ties to Essos. It would be cool to have their blood out there somehow.
She's not that "directly evil". She's flawed and at this point she's battling loss and betrayal. She doesn't really trust anyone and she's losing it. Rhaenyra in her right mind, more than likely wouldn't do this. She was slowly succumbing to madness.
I think the black letter (let's call it that) is going to be the pink letter of this show, and its true author will be up for debate, the main suspects being Rhaenyra, the Greens and the Lord of Maidenpool. The latter seem unlikely, but not if you take into account that he actually switched sides. This could have been some ellaborate plot to have the Blacks turn on each other.
I personally think the reason Rhaenrya ordered Nettles execution was that she was starting to become unhinged. By that time Rhaenerya had lost Lucerys and Jacaerys and thought that Viserys was dead as in addition to losing her daughter in childbirth. Two of the Dragonseeds had betrayed her side and destroyed one of her armies. Her navy had been destroyed at the battle of the Gullet. There was nothing standing between Daerons army and Kings Landing and she knew the sort of vengeance he would take on her and her remaining children. Aemond was still at large with Vhaegar. Things were falling apart. I mean Septon Eustace wrote that Rhaenerya had been betrayed so many times that she had come to expect being betrayed.
My one question is why Rhaenyra would risk using Daemon and Nettles' hosts as her assassins, especially with Daemon not in on the plan. In any number of scenarios, Nettles and her dragon live - now with more reason than ever to turn on Rhaenyra or go public with alternative dragon-taming technique. I 100% agree that the story recorded in the history books seems petty, ridiculous, and out of character, and think pretending to be throwing a jealous tantrum to distract from a deadly serious motivation is a fairly clever move (though it certainly risks damaging everyone's trust in you and your judgment), but surely there's a more secure way to kill a dragon rider.
I've always kinda taken it for granted that Nettles was Daemon's daughter. Rhaenyra reacted badly when she heard about them being lovers as well because, although Targaryens go for every other kind of incest, parental incest seems to be a taboo even for them. But rather than face the truth about her husband's character, she chose to put the blame on Nettles instead.
Someone wrote that Daemon was exiled and returned two years after Nettles was born (113 AD I think). I, too had always suspected Nettles to be Daemon's daughter. But this seems to be impossible. Still, I believe Nettles had Valyrian blood. It just wasn't visible.
@@saymyname2417 That's an interesting point and could cause a problem to that theory - but then again, maybe not. The details about her background are so sparse in F&B, they leave ample room for loopholes and alternative theories. For example, Nettles was born in Westeros, but can we say for certain she was also conceived there? Or, perhaps her origin story is a clue that Daemon didn't quite respect his brother's order to stay in exile and visited with the Velaryons during that time. Maybe the whore wasn't really her mother and the whole thing was a cover story all along... etc. etc. I totally agree about the Valyrian blood. It makes far more sense to me that she had a dragonriding ancestor somewhere along the way than to believe that anyone could tame and ride dragons all along yet somehow nobody noticed during all the millennia of the Valyrian empire. It's not the sort of thing that could be kept secret when there are thousands of dragons and absolutely everyone and their grandma would be motivated to try to get one.
My personal headcanon for the 4 seeds is that nettles is daemon’s daughter, Addam is corlys’s son, Hugh and ulf are bastards of baelon the brave from his days on dragonstone as prince. Their mothers declined to reveal this out of a desire not to provoke the wrath of prince daemon, who wouldn’t want his mother’s memory disrespected
@@michalgenesove1646 Yes, and no. The Velaryons are Valyrians, so theoretically he should be able to tame a dragon. But then there's the Cannibal. The Cannibal may have already been on Dragonstone when the Targaryens arrived, and he happens to be the only dragon that can't be tamed. It's possible that only Targaryen dragons accept Targaryen riders, so unless there's a Velaryon dragon hiding out somewhere there is no dragon that would accept Corlys. But that's just a theory.
I hope the show puts a lot of thought into making a coherent narrative with a clever reading of the text for this section, cuz the narrative as presented makes no sense... In response to 2 of her low-born dragonriders betraying her, Rhaenyra orders the arrest of one of her other dragonriders (in so doing, losing the support of her greatest non-dragonriding supporter: Corlys Velaryon), and weirdly going behind Daemon's back to kill the other dragonrider (with the justification that Nettles was sleeping with Daemon, which she learned from Mysaria who was sleeping with Daemon, but for some reason Rhaenyra didn't care about Daemon's affair with Mysaria, but did care about Nettles, and she took Mysaria's word, rather than thinking her a jealous ex? Not to mention that the narrative is basically like "...and Rhaenyra went insane, did stupid stuff and the end!") Then Rhaenyra's letter causes Maidenpool to switch sides in the war, even though they could easily have just pretended that they tried to carry out her order and failed... and Daemon is ok with Maidenpool switching sides? But then he's still pro-Rhaenyra enough to continue his suicidal mission to kill Aemond. But he disregards Rhaenyra's order to return the King's Landing, so I guess he's not on her side anymore? And he also somehow knows to wait for Aemond at Harrenhal, and does the whole slashing-the-weirwood thing which could open up so many cans of worms in of itself. Not to mention, our only source for what went down at Harrenhal would by Alys Rivers, who is a complete mystery at this point, though it seems unlikely that she sat down with a maester to give an interview of what happened... The whole narrative is a mess; causation for everything is suspect and I REALLY hope that hotd acknowledges this and puts a lot of brainpower into tackling it well; with season 1, I think they felt a bit too beholden to adapting the narrative on face value in places.
Totes, while Rhaenyra being quite a fuckup is my favorite personal quality of her character, the fact that this entire saga is basically like "everyone did everything right except Rhaenyra who was really dumb and batshit crazy" is completely unbelievable. But, it could be a lot of fun for HotD to explore if they handle it right.
Worth noting that Daemon was exiled from Westeros in 111AC. And there’s no accounts of Daemon returning to Westeros until 115AC and Nettles was born in 113AC. Also there’s the Parallels between Aemond and Daemon throughout their stories but especially here in the story, Aemond is characterized as a fierce loyalist to his brother and the only time his judgment falters is when he meets Alys Rivers and they fly across the Riverlands buring everything down in an effort to draw out Daemon, the roles are reversed and Alys Rivers is the older and Aemond the younger. Also Alys is described as a witch that has some kind of hold on Aemond; He gives her a son, a Dragon egg (possibly one from Vhagar) and he seemingly converts from the traditional Hightower’s belief in the faith of the Seven to The faith of Rhllor. After the death of Aemond and Daemon Nettles and Alys are both left in the Riverlands with Dragons
Fantastic video, there's so much of fire and blood I've completely forgotten. The record as presented by the maesters is quite wild, I've questioned before if the letter about killing her was a total forgery like some of the other letters that were going around. I'd never thought of the idea that Rhaenera might have tried to kill Needles off because she could potentially overturn the whole way dragons were claimed and who could claim them 0_0
LOL I have also forgotten a lot of F&B so digging back into this shit and realizing that these "historians" deadass made shit up and essentially wrote themselves as main characters in these dramas is actually hilarious.
@@HillsAliveYT Makes me think of the history around Nero (If I'm not messing that up?) Basically it was written by the successive dynasty as a form of court drama/history, so there's a lot of like "wait is this real?" going on XD
Oh yeah I know what you mean, I'm not hugely versed in history but I know that the history of Caligula is a little fucking batshit and unbelievable as well. Or you know, at least what I gleaned from the Malcolm McDowell-Helen Mirren movie version.
@@randominternetguyoffical Good point! Nero was so beloved by the common people that several 'false Neros' appeared after his death causing trouble. Christians in particular had a big hand in ruining Neros reputation.
@@BillyBasd Not being a big Roman history guy I can't really speak to it as much as some but I do know that it's a common occurrence throughout the recording of all of history for things to be greatly mythologized. Like if you study the 2nd World War there's a whole shit load of mythology and misinformation taken as fact and that's something that took place when my grandpa was a kid, so like things that took place over a 1000 years ago suffer this effect even more because they go through reiteration and rediscovery so many times but we're also so far from the origin points that we have no idea what the diligence of those origin points are XD
Even before the Doom, the Targaryens were not only Dragonriding family and most people in the Free Cities carry Valyrian blood. Not only that, but there was a previous Dragonriding civilization, the Great Empire of the Dawn whose scattered descendants are even greater than those of Valyria. Case in point, the Hightowers and Daynes. Also, it seems the Ironborn are descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn through the Grey King a figure who Crowfood's Daughter points is ancestor to many Westerosi houses. In fact it seems most Humans on Planetos descend from that Empire in some shape or form. The power to ride dragons on Planetos is more widespread than the Targaryens want to even contemplate, to put it lightly.
I don’t think it’s ridiculous for her to be jealous and want to get rid of Nettles. In the show atleast, I can see this exact plot going forward. She goes to Laena’s funeral and instead of mourning Harwin with her sons or speaking to Laenas daughters she’s focused on getting Daemon. She’s asking about Laena referring to her cousin as “her” instead of her name. She has to ask for him to marry her instead of the usual opposite. I do believe they’ve portrayed her more into Daemon than Daemon is into her at this point. They also had Oberyn Martell state “The girl Nettles had taken to riding Prince Daemon as well as a Dragon” in a lore video. The writers definitely want to show the toxic marriage as toxic and that includes cheating so whatever is claimed in the books I’m sure it’ll be an affair in the show. It’s also interesting that Daemon could have a change of heart from his Valyrian supremacy” ways if S1 he’s calling non-Valyrian women ugly and refuses to even consummate his marriage and his last season he falls in love with a “plain” girl.
They also seem to want to force Dany themes into this storyline. I think they’ll go for yet another “watch this character dive into madness before they get killed”. Breaking apart a codependent relationship is exactly what they’ll go for while destroying the ‘Targaryens are closer to gods because of dragons’ claim because this random girl just had to feed one to be able to ride.
I might agree under normal circumstances, but to be concerned about Nettles in the Riverlands at the particular point that Rhaenyra's at when she supposedly orders the hit on her is beyond bizarre to me. Like girl, you have bigger problems at the moment.
I'm confused perhaps Nettles was Daemon's child somewhere if the dragon seed theory is to believe after all she was born before daemon married Laena and he hated his first wife, why would Rhaenyra believe Mysaria so much, or perhaps they tempered the history
After reviewing the sections that described the whole Nettles scenario, I am 10000% sure that these "historians" were altering, embellishing, or straight-up making almost everything up.
I love your theory of Nettles just being an ordinary person who is able to bond with a dragon, and that this would drastically endanger the whole premise of Targaryen exceptionalism, but I wonder if the answer to why Rhaenyra was so against Nettles might possibly be rooted (in the book at least) in plain racism? Nettles is (as far as I remember) the only person unambiguously described as non-white during the retelling of TDOTD; the Targs already think of themselves as superior to everyone else, so it could be that the non-white peoples of Planetos might be held in even lower regard by them? This factor could quite easily be combined with pretty much any other possible theory as to why Rhaenyra wanted her killed. I'm aware that this wouldn't work so well in the show though as the Velaryons are portrayed as being Black, but I'm surprised that no-one else appears to take race into consideration in regards to the story as told in the book.
Yeah I definitely think that's a strong possibility as well. Westeros itself is racist as hell (I mean, one of the maesters describes her as ugly despite NEVER ACTUALLY SEEING HER, which definitely reeks of racism/AKA any WoC is "ugly" according to him) and the Valyrians are even more so, so having a non-white non-noble girl with a dragon would likely be an affront to any of their sensibilities. However, zero chance HotD is going to go that route, especially with Rhaenyra and especially since they made the Velaryons black.
@@HillsAliveYT Agreed, there's zero chance of HOTD going that way! Thank for taking the time to read and reply to my comment. I truly appreciate your content, you have a different approach to TWOIAF than most other commentators that resonates with me and many others.
I’ll be totally honest and this is gonna be really controversial but I think that you don’t need old Valyrian blood to ride dragons, I think it’s a lie started by the families of Old Valyria to keep a monopoly on their power, and keep a strangle hold on the dragon population cause if anyone could ride a dragon then the Valyrian’s would have lost control of their empire pretty fast in the lore the Valyrian where Shepards who stumbled across dragon eggs, allot of the Targaryen’s lore is inspired by the actual English royal family, the founder of the family was called William The Conqueror and even the Dance of The Dragons is inspired by a real life event in English history called The Anarchy, I bring this up because for years William and his descendants always claimed that his line was chosen by God himself to rule England.
I think while it's debatable that Daemon and Nettles were lovers, he must have truly cared for her because he wanted her to survive, and he didn't follow Rhaenyra's order to return back to KL and instead chose to die fighting Aemond. If it was a platonic relationship, there's an added tragedy that these two people didn't commit the crimes that they're being accused of but were just genuine friends. However the more important part of Nettles that I want the show to portray is of her just being a commoner girl that managed to form a bond with a dragon without any Targaryen/Valyrian blood. I just do not buy that she's supposed to be someone's Valyrian bastard, and it's a lot more meaningful that she's just a nobody that was able to defy the blood supremacy beliefs that the Targaryens propagated throughout the kingdom.
I always wondered if Daemon agreeing with Aemond that he had lived too long had to do (at least in part) with losing Nettles (regardless of their relationship).
George RR Martin has a "thing" about his characters' hair. The blond hair of Cersi's children is the principal starting point of the entire civil war across Westeros in Song of Ice and Fire, and it was only on a second reading that I spotted all the black-haired bastards scattered across the continent who are Robert's children. Giving Nettles "brown skin and black hair" I would say points to her not having Targaryen blood, as their distinctive white-blond hair is well known.
I liked nettles, very little explanation of her character was done in the books because of its nature, but I still liked her. So I was glad that she was pretty much the only dragon rider to survive the dance.
Did Rhaenyra really give that much thought to Nettles initially ? After she ascended the throne and the time had come to reward the Dragonseeds for their service to her cause, Rhaenyra seemed to ignore Nettles and think only of what was owed to the MALE Dragonseeds. Despite the fact that she had to fight against those who would steal her right to the Iron Throne because she was a woman, Rhaenyra was no champion for the rights of other women. I doubt she noticed the brown girl enough to think her a threat to Targaryen POWER. Why would people assume Nettles was proof that a non-Targaryan could bond with a dragon? The fact that she didn't look like a Targ didn't mean that it was impossible for her to have had Targaryen blood. I believe that as her grip on power in her divided kingdom grew tenuous and the people turned against Rhaenyra, it is very plausible that paranoia and sexual jealousy might also come in to play, especially with Mysaria egging it on. Both women probably sensed that the dalliance with this particular girl, was different from all the other Daemon flings. And it terrified them. Mysaria, for all her hard-gained wealth and power, probably thought she'd outlast the Queen and get Daemon to herself in the end. So she'd be all for helping Rhaenyra spot and get rid of a romantic rival to both of them. And for all the side pieces both Rhaenyra and Deamon had during their marriage, they always found their way back to each other. Except this time, Daemon's relationship seemed serious and was a real threat because there appeared to be a deep bond with this common street girl. The fact that Rhaenyra never showed any jealousy of other women in Daemon's life was because at least on the show, she was never around him when he was serious about any other woman. I think the relationship with Nettles is a final redemptive story arc for Daemon who near the end of his life, selflessly saved the girl. With her, he had experienced a purer, less complicated and probably more satisfying love than he ever experienced with anyone else. Yes, she was underaged. But if you're going to count Targ incest as normal then..........
I don't like the argument that the incestuous relationship between the Targs is "normal" then every other taboo relationship is normal, too in comparison. The incest in the Targ family is NOT normal whatsoever. Their inbreeding is based on race superiority and genetic engineering. They believe to be superior because they have the blood of the dragon, and in my opinion, I take that claim quite seriously considering how much their Valaryian counterparts were obsessed with blood magic. There are theories that Valayrians are dragon/human hybrids, and it's not far-fetched to believe. Targs, from conception to their abhorrent need to conquer and rule through blood purity, have never been presented as "normal" or ideal. It's weird and damaging on a personal level and on the whole of Westeroes.
@@Hi-Hi1990 Of course it isn't normal or acceptable by today's standards. And yes, the Targs did mistakenly think anything they did was acceptable just because they did it. But stating that many common practices during feudal times were different from today isn't being done to excuse such behavior. I'm saying it to point out the inconsistency of those who are horrified by the accepted belief that a female was a woman at 12, but were happy to ship a man and his niece as a romantic couple.
Great stuff! You rightly point out that the 'history' of the dragonseeds downfall is highly dubious. The stories are written to achieve a goal. This goal being that women are too unhinged to rule. The stories have Rhaenrya losing her mind from grief and jealousy. Sounds like propaganda
Love the discussion Fire and Blood causes. I see this situation as maybe Rhaenyra becoming frustrated with the war and Daemon being away for such a long time. Maybe Myseria was taking advantage of her weakness and whispering lies to Rhaenyra to get Nettles away from the equation for some reason
I love that, maybe make it even deeper Rhaenyra hears the lies and uses them as a cover to disguise that she wants to get rid of nettles in order to get rid of the evidence that anyone could tame a dragon.
@@coldhands4799 yep. just a little baffled that we are now throwing around terms that used to be important to exposed racist storytelling. we are talking about white washing... a white character. white washing used to mean making white a character who was originally of colour, which is a racist trope.
@@vickytaa1 A word can have multiple meanings, whitewashing has been used to mean: covering up vices, crimes or scandals for like a long ass time, its not something new
Rhaenyra and the way contemporary record keepers talked about her reminds me of historical figures like Cleopatra. Powerful women whose historical recountings were so filled with misogynistic propaganda, it's basically impossible to know what's true and what's a lie.
Great theory, I'm leaning towards the show not doing something like this if only because they've "muddied the waters" for lack of a better term, on just what looks valerian and who could reasonably be blood of the dragon.
There is more evidence in F&B to show that Targaryens telling everyone only they can control dragons is nothing but propaganda. When Elissa Farman stole and sold the three dragon eggs to fund the construction of her ship Sun Chaser, Jaeherys was predominantly concerned about someone hatching them and using the dragons as war weapons. Why would this be a concern if only Targaryens can control dragons? Even if only those of Valyrian descent could control dragons, it would mean there is still an awful lot of people in both Westeros and Essos capable of dragon control. At the very least the Velaryons and the Celtigars should all be able to become dragon riders.
Yeah that is an interesting question with some interesting potential answers as well, because the only two real options there seem to be that Jaehaerys knows that others can control dragons or he literally does not know enough about dragons to know whether or not they'll hatch without Targaryen influence.
This is why Fire & Blood is one of my favorite books by George. There may be little dialogue, but it leaves you to interpret how true Fire & Blood really is.
I honestly feel like Daemon and Nettles as lovers make far more sense than her being his daughter and him acting as a surrogate father figure to her. The show deliberately cut any scenes of him being emotional or vulnerable with his own legitimate daughters so why would he be so carrying and affectionate with a girl who isn't his. Daemon has a history of being very much attracted to women who are bold and who are dragon riders. Laena and Rhaenyra are perfect examples of this. However, if the show gives us anything, it's that his interest in them seems to wane after a time. A new, young dragon rider girl with a spitfire nature definitely seems like the type he'd want to become involved with in an unfatherly way.
So why was Nettles (and I guess maybe the other dragonseeds too, I suppose) the first non-highborn to claim a dragon? (Especially if Nettles proves you don't have to have Valyrian blood to claim a dragon...) The books make it seem like there's scads of dragonseeds and the descendants of dragonseeds everywhere on dragonstone/driftmark, and scads of dragons hanging out on Dragonstone. Maybe the dragonkeepers would prevent that (except what if a dragonkeeper tries to claim a dragon, or is bribed to let someone try to claim a dragon...) For all the politicking in Westeros, why do we hear nothing about politicking with the dragonkeepers? No bribes, political appointments, etc. Serious blind spot from GRRM???
I would guess that maybe it's a combo of dragons being isolated from most people, most people being terrified of them (I mean, understandably, I imagine 99.99% of people would not want to approach a dragon even if given the opportunity), and effective Targaryen propaganda? I think that the current Targaryens definitely believe they're super special dragon gods and I think there is at least some truth to that, but given how much intelligence GRRM attributes to dragons, it actually doesn't make sense that a dragon would NEVER be able to bond with anyone who wasn't a Targaryen or Valyrian dragonlord. However, I also think that given how few dragons there are, how few people get the opportunity to interact with them or would even want to, and the prevalence of the belief that only Targaryens can become dragonriders was enough to make Nettles one-of-a-kind.
also its more than likely shes a dragon seed the possibility that the valerians made creatures that anyone could ride is very unlikely especially with the theory about how dragons are made and the Valyrian connection to them its far more plausible shes descended from the targs or velaryons considering how long they lived on the island also considering the keepers are the ones who watch over the most powerful weapons at this era Is wager their intensely trained to not be like other guards
All these are good reasons, and there are more. Obviously reason #1 is that they're an absolute hazard, but they're probably expensive too. They built that Dragonpit just to house them a safe but somewhat practical distance from the Red Keep, and food and dragonkeeper labor don't come cheap. I still think the biggest mystery surrounding Nettles is how she so reliably sourced those sheep before she had a dragon to back her up. But probably the biggest other reason is that claiming a dragon is conspicuous, and the House of the Dragon has every incentive to shut it down. By the time it's big enough to upset any authority, it's big enough for Vhagar to notice. The Sowing of the Seeds was probably the first time that the tacit Targaryen threat against even trying to hatch or befriend a dragon was withdrawn. And we're not sure if a winning Targaryen faction with dragons would have allowed a dragonseed to live.
I like your interpretation of Nettles not being a true dragonseed and Rhaenyra using jealousy as a cover. The Targaryens have used their supposed superiority and mastery of dragons to justify their existence in Westeros. If anyone can actually take a dragon, they are not the gods among men they claim to be and why should they be the ones who get to keep the throne? Without dragons, Targaryens really don’t have another play to make.
Why would anyone assume she wasn't a true dragon seed? LOL People act as if "mixed" isn't a thing. Black Americans are "Britishseeds" in the same way she was a Targ, despite many being darkskinned.
I can't wait for when Nettles shows up. The Targs are all about "blood purity", sibling fucking, cages, Valyrian, etc, and then Nettles - a young woman with possibly no Targ blood - shows up and is like: It's a cat lol. Just feed it a wait.
I think they were bestie that eventually became lovers later, because the daughter theory make no sense. The dates don't correspond, so she can't be his daughter by blood. I do think Nettles is not Valyrian but capable to tame a dragon on her own way and Rhaenyra felt threatened by her for both things, as queen and as wife. Rhaenyra had possessive attitude with Daemon, it's like she can't forgive him for giving gifts and attention to another woman. In the book she doesn't mind when he sleep with Mysaria but goes crazy when she knows about Nettles and him. In the Show 2 are the options, it's either them having platonic relationship and Rhaenyra being paranoid about them or them actually having affair. I tink in the Show they will probably make D&N lovers, considering Showrunners don't really care about Daemon as father figure and they made him darker rather than grey, compared to the book. I do believe Show Rhaenyra is jealous type because before they sleep together at his wife funeral lol she asks him if he loved her, she was obviously searching confirmation if he has ever loved another woman than her, and when he tell her he has been happy she was upset. It's like Rhaenyra always thought to be special for Daemon, but when she finds out he loves someone else, that delusion is crumbling too, so she has felt betrayed for it and he doesn't even return to her. I think they will go for this route because they have more sources about that, than the platonic route. About ages, i don't find that a problem. They messed up the timeline so their ages is not corresponding to the book and defenitely Nettles is gonna be older than 17. Whatever route they will choose, i'll enjoy it because i liked their dynamic cause Daemon seems to care genuinely about Nettles. I'm excited to know who they will cast.
I liked it a lot more before the Velaryon casting cause the whole point is that she had no Valyrian features, but the Velaryons have already had brown skin and rode dragons so its less of a shock...
Wow! Fascinating, and very compelling theory! How long have you been sitting on this one? Because of you, I am now even more primed to be disappointed by how #HouseOfTheDragon plans to adapt Nettles. I'm not a fan of making Daemon have an affair with Nettles, and have that cause tension between him and Rhaenyra. The complexity of your theory is far more interesting. I don't think there is enough evidence that this might be the case in the actual book canon, so it would be a complete show invention. That said, George could make it happen if he adapts more novellas in the period of the Dance of the Dragons. But he's already got a lot on his plate, and I'd rather he finishes ASOIAF and The Tales of Dunk & Egg first. Nonetheless, it is a possibility. If #HotD adapted your theory the internet would explode. The fact that Nettles is black would add even more to the conversation. Personally, I want to see it happen. Great video!
Yeah because women freaking over someone their man slept with that never happens doesn't? I mean come on I've never seen that happen in real life. And it has nothing to do with misogyny at all.
“She is a common thing, with the stink of sorcery upon her,” the queen declared. “My prince would ne’er lay with such a low creature. You need only look at her to know she has no drop of dragon’s blood in her. It was with spells that she bound a dragon to her, and she has done the same with my lord husband.” So long as he was in the girl’s thrall, Prince Daemon could not be relied upon, Her Grace went on. Therefore, let a command be sent at once to Maidenpool, but only for the eyes of Lord Mooton. “Let him take her at table or abed and strike her head off. Only then shall my prince be freed.”
I knew a soldier who found out his wife was cheating on him when he was overseas, so he attempted suicide so that he could get sent back home for psych reasons. This story has the same vibes, people don't always act in a rational or logical manner. If you wanna say "well she was a leader, she would have acted differently" don't worry I've got about a dozen stories of leaders losing their mind because of family, or stress, or just because they thought they could get away with shit. That being said the way everyone with a pen paints themselves as a self insert hero is strange for sure, but yeah, don't underestimate the mess that is humanity.
I bet any amount of money that the show winners at HBO doing House of the Dragon will not include Rhaenyra, wearing the execution of nettles, because house of the dragon is nothing but team black propaganda and making Reynera out to be girl boss girl power queen who can do no wrong in the eyes of the viewers
Hello there, I just wanted to ask you if you could consider a character analysis on Wanda Maximoff. Because I saw many misogyny, sexism and bad writing (almost the same as Quetsia from TVD) translate into that character who could have been so much more. I was inspired by you critical representation of TVD characters and completely agree with you in every aspect. If you don't consider her than I'd be happy if you could make a analysis on characters like Matt Donovan or Alaric and explain your opinion. Love to hear your thoughts.
Yeah I'll definitely keep those in mind! Weirdly while I am not into the mainstream MCU much at all, Wanda was my favorite character in the franchise for a while until they kinda flopped with her character.
So I haven't read the books but when I heard your recount of the story my first thought was "oh this Nettles girl is a threat to the Targaryen's sense of superiority". There absolutely could be some misogyny behind how Rhaenyra was characterized (there also seems to be a quite a bit of it behind how Nettles is characterized) but her literal statement about the girl not having any Targaryen blood and bewitching her husband/the dragon makes perfect sense to me. Rather than this being a misrepresentation of what she actually said it was something she said to explain how Nettles was able to do something that is supposed to be impossible. Weather she believe it to be true literally or not, she would understand the treat that Nettles is a threat simply by existing. Regular people are not supposed to be capable of becoming dragon riders. The fact that everyone feels the need to constantly mention that Nettles is poor, brown, young, and insignificant seems important because it draws a contrast between her and the Targaryens. I don't think you are making a stretch i think that is the explanation that makes the most sense. As for Daemon he's a pile of scum and even if he did see Nettles like a daughter that doesnt seem like the sort of thing that would stop him from having a sexual relationship with her. His "overly enthusiastic" interest in her could also be because he she was able to tame a dragon through kindness rather than kinship. I image he would find her fascinating. All that being said, judging by the TV show's current trackrecord with sex/race I doubt I will get a characterization that we want. So I low key hope the show does make her an actual witch who used magic to seduce Daemon and a dragon because atleast that will be fun.
Does this person even know what misogyny means? Both men and women tend to get upset about being cheated on. Its fine to doubt whether that was her motivation but to claim misogyny because men thought a lady might not have enjoyed her husband cheating is absurd.
the misogyny is much more bigger picture in regards to the maesters wanting to paint Rhaenyra as a mad queen at least in part because it provided 'proof' that women weren't fit to rule or hold power. I.e. they are misogynists who don't want women to rule and Rhaenyra is the literal personification of their fear and mistrust. Of course they'll tend toward interpreting her actions in negative and biased ways, even if the situation at hand wouldn't otherwise call for it, e.g. being cheated on. Her being mad at being cheated on is understandable, but their framing of Rhaenyra's actions is clearly inclined toward the idea that she overreacted and was mad and cruel, etc.and even Daemon manages to look sympathetic in the same tale. This is not accidental, and recognising the misogyny in it is not absurd, nor, say, an overraction or madness...
@@epileptictrees5213 This sir, was a joke based on how many young women tend to like older heartthrobs- Johnny Depp just being a recent example to get a half assed point across. (Benedict Cumberbatch, Ryan Reynolds, Ryan Gosling, etc). But to be more unfunny and clear, no, not all young women are third thing over old hot men - just more than one would think, enough to make this joke funny. Lmao
It'll be interesting to see GRRM and the Showrunner's final take for Nettles. Is she Daemon's daughter, lover, maybe just a Dragonseed friend he made that he respects or owed a favor too? Not to mention, the number of Dragonseeds around raises questions, seemingly a couple dozen at least. Interesting to think, are all these dragonseeds 1st or 2nd etc generation Targaryens? Like, were all the Targaryen men before this time all just banging any good looking maidens on the island and... no one knew or took notice? Or made comments? Especially given the personalities and track records of some of these previous Targaryens King's, seems doubtful they'd belong to certain ones than others. And like, do they mention which Targaryen they hail from? Maybe Daemon or Jaehaerys' sons spilled some "Dragonseed" before they married their spouses we now know of? And how far back is this? Orys was a bastard of Aerion Targaryen's, who's to say he was the only one. And if so, perhaps even some Dragonseeds are just descendants of ones from WAY back, before Aegon the Conqueror and even his father. And I thought some other people of the Valyrian race were on Dragonstone too, descendants of those who came over to Dragonstone with Aenar Targaryen as his servants and small allies. So much Lore for a seemingly small island overall... Still, the Dance will kill most of them off as well. Seems that all Valyrians in Westeros, whether Man or Beast, did truly suffer during the Dance of Dragons. A new "Doom of Valyria" in a way.
Well I would need to double check but I think that the Targs actually were semi-openly running around with a lot of different people and because of their status as "gods among men" it was seen as some kind of blessing to be smashed by them. But, given the portrayal of Nettles, I feel like it's not entirely unbelievable that some of these "dragonseeds" aren't actually Targaryens or even Valyrians.
@@HillsAliveYT Thanks for the response! Great channel btw. 👏 I remember Jaehaerys speaking of the Dragonseeds himself, and said that often times "gifts were given", in a video concerning Orys Baratheon's origins. Maybe you're right too, they were seen as special people so some of the fishermen had maiden daughters who, if they were attractive enough to catch the eye of a Targaryen, wouldn't have minded bearing their "Dragonseeds". And I guess it was still low key, since we hear little of them outside of the Dance or slightly before. As for Nettles; Well, the Valyrians don't all have to explicitly look Valyrian to carry the blood of the Dragon in them. She could be a distant Dragonseed in a line of previous Dragonseeds for all we know... which admittedly is little. Nettles fed sheep to the Dragon to make it friendly but she may still have been a Dragonseed. Sure, some people maybe wanting to try their luck and went to try to tame a Dragon knowing they weren't of Valyrian blood is entirely possible but, I don't think anyone has ever bonded with a Dragon without the Valyrian blood. Others failed to bond with the Dragons so she was taking another approach to it. Some people just get lucky, some Dragons aren't in the mood, etc. But unless you have guts like Baelon or Aemond in regards to a Dragon like Vhagar, then I can see some Valyrians still getting flamed on. One of Corlys' Dragonseeds tries to tame Sheepstealer and gets slightly burned so, for a Valyrian man/woman to want to take precautions before attempting to ride a Dragon known for attacking others before you would make sense. That said, you may be completely right and she's not a Valyrian or a Dragonseed, and GRRM may have her as a sort of "Easter Egg" moment where we just have one, and only one, case of a non-Valyrian person bonding with a Dragon.
I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere in canon that Targaryens practised lord's first night tradition on Dragonstone, and any women who managed to get pregnant from it and give birth to a living child were treated as special and given loads of money, so nobody really complained about it. But, yeah, many many smallfolk on Dragonstone are descended from the dragonlords. It's not a secret in Westeros.
I’m a be honest I never understood the appeal with this character it’s not that I hate her it’s just I feel completely apathetic I’m just like oh wow this character exists I feel nothing I feel so bad because people are so excited about her and I just can’t get the appeal
She was supposed to be undeniably, not targaryen/valyrian in the books the Velaryons are white and almost exactly like the Targaryen's in appearance and the other dragonseeds are white as well (her having brown skin, eyes, hair). She's supposed to have us question the whole only blood of old valyria can ride a dragon. Also she's pretty badass.
Even tough I am team green, I feel Rhaenyra was right about getting rid of Nettles. You are forgeting an important factor, Deamon. As you stated in your video about him, he still lusts for the throne, he just loves Rhaenyra and Viserys more than power. But what if there was a woman who he loves more than her. Jace and Luce are dead (I am not sure about Joffery, but he could be dead too at this point), and Daemon has already 2 hiers with her to take over if Rhaenyra died. He would be regent until their chieldren grow up. Nettles's relationship if real, would pose a real threat to her if it were true. She would probably feel like Cersei did after hearing Maggy the Frog's prophecy: "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." Taking out Nettles was a logical step from her point of view, even if it cost her a dragonrider.
Given how both characters have positioned themselves on the topic of prophecy, I can absolutely see your assessment turning out true with Raenera seeing Nettles as a threat to the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy and Daemon outright rejecting it as nonesense.
Yup, this will be tricky to adapt to the show, it will all come down to Nettles characterization and how believable her affair with Daemon is... The balancing act will be that people will probably hate her right away because we're already invested in Rhaenyra, and there might be the temptation of making Rhaenyra less likable to improve Nettles standing with the audience. Very tough narrative problem IMO and I am curious to see how it will go
They already have tried to make Rhaenyra appeal to the audience more than the story led on so i wouldnt be surprised if they have Daemon be as evil as possible.
@@okdude8215 something I like about the writers of this show is that character behavior is very consistent with their own agendas and values, so however it shows up in the show, will hopefully feel like genuine from the character
I like the way and angle you come at this. Because wouldn't this be a problem for Daemon as well? People with no connection to his bloodline gaining dragons. Because it would be dangerous for Daemon as well. Because at that time believe it or not there were way better fighters and skilled Knights than Daemon. Whose to say a elite family with a better skilled knight and dragon just as fierce/big as his. Wouldn't come along and overpower him. That only thing that kept their enemies as bay were the dragons. Now imagine people hearing about Nettles. Going out and actually taking dragons and actually being better and more skilled at it.
Show Theory: Nettles tames Sheepstealer like a normal animal because she doesn't know the fancypants way of claiming a dragon, tapping into the way the first Valyrians went from shepherds to dragon riders. Rhaenyra finds out from Alicent what really happened with Luke and Aemond, which begins to sour her on Valyria's legacy. Meanwhile, Nettles gives Daemon hope for a new Valyria after the war and he ends up liking running on hope instead of pure spite. He begins to think of Nettles as a daughter and gets really clingy for emotional support. Daemon's love language is gift giving, which looks bad with Nettles because of how he was when he was younger. Maybe Daemon gets a dragon dream. If Daemon gets a dragon dream Rhaenyra thinks Nettles sparked it, so it looks like Rhaenyra just thinks Nettles is a witch. Rhaenyra fears Daemon being consumed by obsession over recreating Valyria and prophecy like her father and nearly herself so she orders Nettles' death. If Daemon survives the war, he goes to Essos and finds the eggs that eventually become Dany's.
Is there a chance Needles was Daemon´s bastard daughter? It could explain why something that look like a secret affair is just a reconection between father and daughter and everything was just minsuderstanding. But I guess that would have being too idyllic for House of the Dragon, I guess.
Doesn't seem like we'll be seeing Nettles after all 😢
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This interpretation rings so true. If you're right, then GRRM yet again distracts the reader by placing several conflicting possibilities on the table, while the full truth is concealed somewhere else entirely.
This video touches upon a point I've been hoping to see explored more. Hobbes talks about the concept of "natural equality" which is that any man can in principle kill or defeat any other. This is fundamentally why power is something of an illusion, as varys tells tyrion. Dragons throw a huge wrench into this, turning a dragonrider into a one man army. Frankly, the mere fact that the targaryens produced numerous dragon riders, with the strongest dragons not being passed from father to son, made the dance inevitable(Maegor being a precursor). I've wondered whether a reason Viserys stuck to his choice of Rhaenyra as his heir, is that he wanted to consolidate power over dragons in the crown by keeping the secrets of dragon *hatching* between Ruler and Heir, and having already passed it on to rhaenyra, he'd inevitably create two rival lines by passing it onto aegon. Sorry for being so tangential, I love your videos.
i have a feeling they might replace Nettles with Rhaena, it would be the same dynamic seeing as its his actual daughter. i primarily think this because the show has explicity drawn our attention to the fact that she doesnt have a dragon. it would also make sense for her to go to with daemon to avenge her bethrothed lucerys.
I would be bummed by that given that the dragonseeds are one of the few personalized glimpses that we get of the common people and how the Dance affected them.
@@HillsAliveYT i agree i can just see it being something they might do to streamline the story and give more purpose to already established characters. game of thrones did this with Gendry becoming Edric as an example. or the merging of the tyrells into Loras
Rhaena isn’t a fighter and the complete opposite of Nettles. Nettles isn’t interchangeable to anyone. Rhaena is gentle and sweet. Her purpose is to be the last dragon rider with Morning. They’ll change her character into a Sansa/margaery type character. She’s supposed to be different from her sister. Making them the same is actually disrespectful and ruins the characters. Lukes “vengeance” is done by Daemon it makes more sense for Rhaenyra, the boys mother, to go with him.
I'd wondered about this, especially with the theories that there have been wild dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens. Why not wild dragon riders too?
I love your point of view, and I think it is most likely the case as even Rhaenyra said in the show they are ordinary without dragons, and it's in Martin's fashion...But I do like the specialness of 'dragon blood'! And a point to it could be the strength of their appearance features genes. I believe they would give Vermithor to Rhaena, so there would be no betrayal on that side. But to make it interesting it could be nettles who betray blacks:)
i’ve only skimmed fire and blood but i am familiar with nettles, super excited to see the dragonseeds and nettles x damon fancams 😭 deffo hoping for a more father/daughter vibe, similar to arya and the hound
Something that I think helps cement this theory is a simply question. How did people begin becoming dragonriders? Entirely through magic? Or did someone treat the dragon nicely, giving it gifts and offerings of food until the dragon trusted them enough to let them ride.
It’s hard to say who Nettles was to Daemon. I mean, Mushroom made up a lot of salacious stories, like Daemon and Alicent being lovers, with no veracity. I have this feeling that Nettles is his illegitimate dragonseed daughter because that’s what season 2 is setting up-the arrival of the dragonseeds.
~ Agree, it would be very dangerous if she was a walking ad that said anyone can try to claim a dragon...still we do not always look like our ancestors even recent ones!~
Why won't ya'll let Rhaenyra have flaws? Her decision was the result of paranoia, with dash of prejudice, and maybe a sprinkle of jealousy. Mysaria had been proven to be a dependable spy. Not only by Rhaenyra, but also by Daemon. So, it was easy for Rhaenyra to believe her. At that point Rhaenyra already didn't trust the dragon seeds because of the betrayal. When Mysaria told her about Nettles she freaked out because of her own prejudices. Nettles has a foreign appearance and does not meet the beauty standards of Westeros. Hence, she felt like her husband wouldn't go to her unless Nettles used magic. And she might have already been suspecting Nettles of using magic to tame the dragon, because she had no Valyrian features and used an unusual method, so this was just the final nail in the coffin. Now she might have thought, if this girl used magic to get my husband into bed with her, what else can she get him to do? Afterall, unlike Alyn and Addam, she had no real attachments. So she decided to send someone to kill her and free Daemon from the spell. The extreme nature of the order, does suggest a bit of jealousy. The actual words Rhaenyra used are debatable, but the fact that she gave the order isn't really. Also, why is it hard to believe that Daemon and Nettles had an affair?
because hills alive demonizes everything that Rhaenyra does. I honestly think that the reason that Rhae mistrusted Nettles is also bc Mysaria was constantly telling her stuff abt nettles, at that point of the story Rhaenyra was extremely paranoic and felt really bad because she had lost most of her children, she felt lonely. I dont agree with her wanting to execute Nettles at all, but i think i understand why she felt sm rage.
A lot of this analysis is pretty bad. It’s VERY plausible that Rhaenyra would lash out against Daemon when she’s been betrayed so many times, but saw him as someone who supported her claim. I don’t think you understand love and relationships very well…. It’s not misogyny at all, just jealousy and insecurity. She feels connected to Daemon and I think the idea of him cheating with another dragon rider would be particularly irksome to Rhaenyra. If the reverse were the case, one could argue that Daemon was misogynistic to lash out against Rhaenyra. Truth is, humans are jealous and ESPECIALLY jealous when they feel vulnerable. I can tell the author of this video has not had a lot of life experience in relationships
I am still with Grey Area's theory that she is a witch, in fact the witch that lives in the same set of mountains that the hill tribes live in. Don't the Burned Men talk about the enchantress in a cave in the mountains? Did Sheepstealer scorch them making them Burned Men?
Nettles is totally giving Zendaya vibes. Also I didn’t read the books so excuse me if I’m ignorant, but Nettles just leaves on a dragon and that’s it? No word or sight of her ever again? On a dragon? Where are the speculation videos on that because I’m curious.
apparently she ended up somewhere on the mountains of the moon, by the Vale. Some of the mountain people would speak of a witch/goddess and her dragon living in a cave and some would give her animal sacrifices as a kind of cult. So she must have lived for a few decades there, and I don't think there's any mention of Sheepstealer after that.
honestly I feel like this whole story is to help setup Tyrion getting a chance to ride one of dani’s dragons. Tyrion has “possible” relations to house Targaryen but gets close to dragons through his own ingenuity. The idea that she was ordered to be killed to hide this information seems like the most plausible reason from both a character standpoint and a plot standpoint to help grrm setup the ideas he’s been wanting to setup throughout the story
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SPOILER WARNING: In case the title and the topic and the description and my community post didn't make it clear, this could spoil potential future House of the Dragon plotlines if you haven't read Fire & Blood.
The books have emphasized that the Valyrians were shepherds before they tamed dragons. Nettles could’ve been a regular person who just did it the old fashioned way.
How the fuck have I never put that together.
I've always seen the story between Nettles and Daemon as an old creep grooming a young girl, as he did with Rhaenyra. That's why the story seems somehow convincing to me, because the way he acts with Nettles is very close to the way he acted with Rhaenyra. And honestly, Rhaenyra turning jealous wife kid of makes sense to me because at that time, she's losing everything and she really seems to care about Daemon. She might fear of losing him as a woman who doesn't want to loose her love, or as a queen who is scared of loosing a strong player in her game. In any way i don't think the relationship Daemon had with Nettles was safe for her : he is not the caring lover type (and she's a teen) and he's not the caring father type either. It's really this that interests me more than Rhaenyra's reactions : why Nettles and what she was to Daemon.
But all the theories you have in this video are so interesting, i can't wait to see the answers of HOTD.
Thank you for the video ♥
Thank. You. It's refreshing to see others being honest about this relationship.
I was--well am--really disliked among GOT fans, particularly those who are hard-core Dany stans. The fact that the entire Daemon and Nettles relationship is referenced as them being lovers more than once outside of Fire and Blood reinforces what I've said for years about this fandom. They don't care about the story. It's about what they want. They're like children throwing tantrums when things don't go their way. Nettles hasn't even shown up and the hatred towards her character would lead you to believe that she killed Luke with her bare hands.
She was 17 and extremely experienced (17 is older than a woman in medieval age) women would get married at 14 at that time and were mature enough to lead houses and bannermen judging ages based on our time would be a lot less than Intelligent tbh because then why aren't we judging everyone else such as rhaenyra sending a 14 year old boy as a war messenger, or targeryans marrying their siblings trying to pass on judgements of character based on our well developed morals 4000 years later is a very stupid idea
daemon isn't a good person at all blood and cheese is enough of an attestment to that but nettles is not one of his evil doings but rather one of the rare times he was actually kind
It definitely comes off as grooming in the book, but I have a feeling the show won't go there. Or they'll film it that way and cut the scenes.
@@lillypharaoh5945 - I agree with you. I mean 14 years olds were still not fully mature and I don't think they could manage whole households, let alone armed forces like an experienced adult.
But most were anytime more mature than many 30 years olds today. They needed to grow up quickly and couldn't be babies till retirement.
As for Nettles she sure is very young but BY NO MEANS a child or innocent anymore. She sure knows what she is doing getting with Daemon and she profits from it, too. And yes, she is the one case where Daemon shows his good side and in more than one way. Which still doesn't make him a good character.
No matter the age, Daemon is a prince and Nettles a nobody from the gutter with an according looks, behaviour and lifestyle.
Everyone in Westeros would have tried to get with him just like people try to get with the rich and famous (and royals!) today. Modern sensibilities people are so daft.
Same. I saw his relationship with rhaenyra the same way too.
King Jaehaerys was very concerned about dragons hatching in Essos after Elissa Farman stole and sold Dreamfyre's eggs. His sister Rhaena also left Casterly Rock because of how "greedily" Lannister's were looking at Dremfyre's eggs. They didn't seem to think it was impossible for an non-Targaryen to hatch or ride a dragon, so Nettles not being a dragonseed seems very plausible. It would be a bad look for that to get out after all of the Targaryen exceptionalism propaganda.
Yes totes! Which is also a really interesting indication that the Targaryens don't really know jack shit about how dragons work either.
Right? Im so tired of the secret targaryens in this story, everything revolves around the Targaryens and it is annoying
I think it is possible for non-Valyrians to ride dragons. But I do also think that it is just easier for Valyrians to do it and incredibly hard for non-Valyrians. I mean, in thousands of years of Valyrian rule in Essos and later Targaryen rule in Westeros, I can only recall one dragon rider whose Valyrianess was contested, so.
@@HillsAliveYT there’s only one person in Westeros who understands dragons at all, and his name is *Barth*
@@SRosenberg203 I sincerely doubt anyone since the doom of valyria except maybe aenar the exile and his immediate children understood everything about the dragons.
I want the show to depict Daemon and Nettles as lovers, because an awful lot of people think Daemon is a good guy, and that should end
Agreed, just because he's attractive doesn't mean fans should pretend that he's a good person
I honestly blame the halo effect for the reason why people think Daemon is morally good person. A lot of people saw Matt Smith in a Targaryen wig and let the fact that he is attractive carry the morality of his entire character. It's annoying.
That being said, I'm not wishing that kind of grooming on Nettles. I could barely watch the screen when it was Rhaenyra.
Idk why people keep saying that other people think Daemon is “good” … idk anyone who thinks he’s a good guy, I just know lots of people who thought his portrayal in the show was sexy and well acted lol. They want to side with him because they like his character, not because they think the character is a good guy.
don't be talking shit about my daemon
Hmmm I think that would just make him more sympathetic... the tale of his relationship with Nettles is the most uncharacteristically sympathetic thing he does in his whole life. Meanwhile in House of the Dragon we've seen him kill innocent people for very small gains for himself. Literally murdered his wife in cold blood just so he could marry again. I don't think fucking a 16 year old will dissuade anyone... especially since he's already fucked a 17 year old Rhaenyra in the show...
Also, Stinging Nettles are a small scrawny plant that has a wide range healing properties, and is found basically everywhere, to the point of being common, but like blueberries, only properly thrive in the wild.
Or maybe like dragons - at least dragons don't do well when confined.
Now I actually love the idea of Nettles not even being a Targaryen or a witch, and just a regular person. Maybe even just descendant somehow of another dragon lord family from old Valyria who had bastards somewhere, and just no one knows, not even her, I mean, the Targaryens weren't even the strongest dragon lords in Valyria, and I am pretty sure they all had bastard sons and daughter around, so... maybe somewhere around there and so, not even being a Targaryen or a with Nettles has that drop of dragon lord blood and she doesn't even know it, which would mean there are plenty of others who have it too and could potentially claim a dragon
In the lore to this point, you have to be a dragonseed and not too far away from the Targaryens, since we know of Targaryen relatives which were 1/8 targaryen not being able to tame dragons since their blood was very diluted. This means that Nettles most likely was a bastard of one of the Kids of Jaehaerys I, or Jaehaerys himself.
@@Alejojojo6 it never says they have to be Targaryen, just that they're the dragon lord family that's left. We don't even know the other ones who were even stronger than the Targaryens
She could either be a Targaryen, Velaryon or Celtigar. Theyre ancestry is from Old Valyria. Most likely shes a bastard Targaryen since theyre closest to being dragon lords. In the books every person who wasnt a dragonseed got torn apart so no normal person is gonna approach and live taming a dragon.
@@yasserbostan7156 in the books there is also rumours of dragons in Asshai, so, maybe there are other dragon lords aside from them
@@bichiAllen yeah I read that part as well but I think it's unlikely. The reason being dragons are massive news anywhere on the planet of GOT. The chance of them being anywhere else is slim but you never know.
You brought up some great points. Reading F&B comes off like self-insert fanfiction like you said. I often wondered is everything said about Rhaenyra true, or are they doing like with most female leaders throughout history and making her look more insane than what was true? (Not saying that all female leaders were angels or anything, but that historians have an...interesting way of remembering them.) Also let's be honest, Nettles posing a threat as proof that you don't need Valyrian blood in order to be a dragonrider is a way more interesting reason for Rhaenyra to want her out of the picture, than being jealous because she's Daemon's current flavor of the week.
Yeah, I find F&B's account of the Dance to be dubious to say the least, I mean Westeros aggressively excludes women from any kind of power, so I find the notion that A. Rhaenyra and Alicent were the complete driving force behind the Dance AND B. the whole world was ripped apart because of it to be a little too convenient to all of the people who would undoubtedly want to say "see, this is why women can't inherit or do anything important ever".
@@HillsAliveYT I feel the exact same way. Like the account of the dinner that apparently gave birth to the name "The Greens" and "The Blacks" was so funny when I actually sat down and read it. Nothing actually happens at the dinner, but the maesters are essentially equating two women wearing different colored dresses as the big call to war. It couldn't be that they were simply representing their house colors because there was a tourney earlier that day, noooo they MUST be secretly declaring war against each other lol.
Lol "Daemon's current flavor of the week" we should use that more often
The fact that Nettles fed Sheepstealer before each ride is telling. Perhaps Targaryans really do have a magical connection to the dragons, and because Nettles doesn't have that, keeping Sheepstealer fed is how she makes up for it and stops Stealer from eating her
But dragons could feed themselves any time. It is not that they depend on humans.
That thing never made sense to me.
I think she kept feeding her dragon sheep because the both of them enjoyed the "ritual" of feeding before a flight. And many people forget that regular humans can tame dragons too. It's rare, but it's possible. The first dragon riders before Valyria were regular farmers, nothing special about them. Overtime it just became easier to connect with dragons because of all the magic that was being practiced.
Nettles is a dragonseed. No question about it, otherwise, the Dragon would have killed her.
@@BleedingGrafitti Regular Humans CANNOT tame dragons. That's on the lore. Its Impossible, the only way is by bonding your blood (and thus your descendants) through blood with the Dragons, thus why no one other than the Targaryens could ever ride dragons. If regular humans could tame dragons, the whole Lore would not have sense, the Targaryens would always be in paranoia of having the Dragons without riders tamed by a regular human.... which is nonsense.
@@BleedingGrafitti The first dragon riders were shephers (not farmers) and they where 40 of them, who made a blood ritual that allowed them to bond, it wasnt like they simply found the dragons and trained them... It was done through blood (probably a human sacrifice), and with eggs not with adult dragons. They bonded through blood, thus why the bond is passed through generations. And those 40 gave birth to the 40 valyrian families that ruled Valyria. One of them, that of the Targaryens.
I think fans of the show who honestly believe that the relationship between Nettles and Daemon will be platonic or a father-daughter relationship are being ridiculous. With the way they left Daemon’s character in S1 (uncaring, war-hungry, abusive, hyper-sexual, violent etc.) I highly doubt that Daemon’s lust and maltreatment of Rhaenyra will end with Nettles.
Whether the relationship be pedophilic, aggressive, possessive etc. I do believe it will be an appropriate and abusive relationship just like all of Daemon’s relationships thus far.
EDIT: I also like the idea of Nettles not be being a witch or a Targaryen bastards pretty cool. It would be hilarious watching die hard Targ nation stans lose it if the show runners did that.
I have to agree with your summary of how they left Daemon at the end of season 1. It was also pretty clear that he gave himself a reason to find his attraction to Rhaenyra waning. He doesn’t like that she seems to have adopted his brother’s “obsession” with dragon dreams. Or the fact that she now has power over him, and is in the position he has wanted to have for years.
Right. The driving part of his character being selfish and there is no redemption arc with Daemon. He only gets worse.
It would be soo funny if Nettles is not Targaryen or a witch. Just regular girl. It would actually make sense as to why Daemon was attracted to her sense this regular girl actually somehow tamed a dragon.
She's probably related to some other dragonlord family that died out in the doom, and her complexion tells me she's from Essos or has ties to Essos.
It would be cool to have their blood out there somehow.
Do you think people incapable of change?
Nettles is by far my personal favorite character so I really hope they don’t make her story needlessly disturbing for more shock value in the show
Well be happy my Friend they wont make her story at all ! 👌🏿
@@yoishikakatshihe6402 aww well maybe it’s for the best? Who knows
@@grimgingrin830 not gonna lie, After Season 2. Yes it may be for the Best 😅
@@yoishikakatshihe6402 oh boy😂
Interesting. As always, it’s a good idea to disbelieve the maesters when they go overboard with either praise or condemnation.
I doubt they will make Rhaenyra that directly evil on the show. They are bending over backwards to make her the protagonist.
She's not that "directly evil". She's flawed and at this point she's battling loss and betrayal. She doesn't really trust anyone and she's losing it. Rhaenyra in her right mind, more than likely wouldn't do this. She was slowly succumbing to madness.
I think the black letter (let's call it that) is going to be the pink letter of this show, and its true author will be up for debate, the main suspects being Rhaenyra, the Greens and the Lord of Maidenpool. The latter seem unlikely, but not if you take into account that he actually switched sides. This could have been some ellaborate plot to have the Blacks turn on each other.
I personally think the reason Rhaenrya ordered Nettles execution was that she was starting to become unhinged. By that time Rhaenerya had lost Lucerys and Jacaerys and thought that Viserys was dead as in addition to losing her daughter in childbirth. Two of the Dragonseeds had betrayed her side and destroyed one of her armies. Her navy had been destroyed at the battle of the Gullet. There was nothing standing between Daerons army and Kings Landing and she knew the sort of vengeance he would take on her and her remaining children. Aemond was still at large with Vhaegar. Things were falling apart.
I mean Septon Eustace wrote that Rhaenerya had been betrayed so many times that she had come to expect being betrayed.
Exactly that, and to so openly demand that guest right be broken? Rhaenyra had lost every bit of her mind.
Twitter be like "Henry Cavill as Nettles fancast". Or we gotta settle for the second best choice, Zendaya.
😂😂
It's bad enough having Zda in Dune ruining it. I do not need that leech worming her way into my mental picture of Fire & blood.
#NotmyNettles
I would have accept Zendaya as Netles to be honest 🤣
My one question is why Rhaenyra would risk using Daemon and Nettles' hosts as her assassins, especially with Daemon not in on the plan. In any number of scenarios, Nettles and her dragon live - now with more reason than ever to turn on Rhaenyra or go public with alternative dragon-taming technique. I 100% agree that the story recorded in the history books seems petty, ridiculous, and out of character, and think pretending to be throwing a jealous tantrum to distract from a deadly serious motivation is a fairly clever move (though it certainly risks damaging everyone's trust in you and your judgment), but surely there's a more secure way to kill a dragon rider.
I've always kinda taken it for granted that Nettles was Daemon's daughter. Rhaenyra reacted badly when she heard about them being lovers as well because, although Targaryens go for every other kind of incest, parental incest seems to be a taboo even for them. But rather than face the truth about her husband's character, she chose to put the blame on Nettles instead.
Someone wrote that Daemon was exiled and returned two years after Nettles was born (113 AD I think).
I, too had always suspected Nettles to be Daemon's daughter. But this seems to be impossible. Still, I believe Nettles had Valyrian blood. It just wasn't visible.
@@saymyname2417 That's an interesting point and could cause a problem to that theory - but then again, maybe not. The details about her background are so sparse in F&B, they leave ample room for loopholes and alternative theories. For example, Nettles was born in Westeros, but can we say for certain she was also conceived there? Or, perhaps her origin story is a clue that Daemon didn't quite respect his brother's order to stay in exile and visited with the Velaryons during that time. Maybe the whore wasn't really her mother and the whole thing was a cover story all along... etc. etc.
I totally agree about the Valyrian blood. It makes far more sense to me that she had a dragonriding ancestor somewhere along the way than to believe that anyone could tame and ride dragons all along yet somehow nobody noticed during all the millennia of the Valyrian empire. It's not the sort of thing that could be kept secret when there are thousands of dragons and absolutely everyone and their grandma would be motivated to try to get one.
My personal headcanon for the 4 seeds is that nettles is daemon’s daughter, Addam is corlys’s son, Hugh and ulf are bastards of baelon the brave from his days on dragonstone as prince. Their mothers declined to reveal this out of a desire not to provoke the wrath of prince daemon, who wouldn’t want his mother’s memory disrespected
But if Addam is Corlys's son, he shouldn't have been a dragonrider.
@@michalgenesove1646 Yes, and no. The Velaryons are Valyrians, so theoretically he should be able to tame a dragon. But then there's the Cannibal. The Cannibal may have already been on Dragonstone when the Targaryens arrived, and he happens to be the only dragon that can't be tamed. It's possible that only Targaryen dragons accept Targaryen riders, so unless there's a Velaryon dragon hiding out somewhere there is no dragon that would accept Corlys.
But that's just a theory.
@@michalgenesove1646 Also the posibility of dragonseed mothers
@@Aewon84 they're Valyrians, but not dragonlords.
@@janvancura8412 also true.
I hope the show puts a lot of thought into making a coherent narrative with a clever reading of the text for this section, cuz the narrative as presented makes no sense...
In response to 2 of her low-born dragonriders betraying her, Rhaenyra orders the arrest of one of her other dragonriders (in so doing, losing the support of her greatest non-dragonriding supporter: Corlys Velaryon), and weirdly going behind Daemon's back to kill the other dragonrider (with the justification that Nettles was sleeping with Daemon, which she learned from Mysaria who was sleeping with Daemon, but for some reason Rhaenyra didn't care about Daemon's affair with Mysaria, but did care about Nettles, and she took Mysaria's word, rather than thinking her a jealous ex? Not to mention that the narrative is basically like "...and Rhaenyra went insane, did stupid stuff and the end!") Then Rhaenyra's letter causes Maidenpool to switch sides in the war, even though they could easily have just pretended that they tried to carry out her order and failed... and Daemon is ok with Maidenpool switching sides? But then he's still pro-Rhaenyra enough to continue his suicidal mission to kill Aemond. But he disregards Rhaenyra's order to return the King's Landing, so I guess he's not on her side anymore? And he also somehow knows to wait for Aemond at Harrenhal, and does the whole slashing-the-weirwood thing which could open up so many cans of worms in of itself. Not to mention, our only source for what went down at Harrenhal would by Alys Rivers, who is a complete mystery at this point, though it seems unlikely that she sat down with a maester to give an interview of what happened...
The whole narrative is a mess; causation for everything is suspect and I REALLY hope that hotd acknowledges this and puts a lot of brainpower into tackling it well; with season 1, I think they felt a bit too beholden to adapting the narrative on face value in places.
Totes, while Rhaenyra being quite a fuckup is my favorite personal quality of her character, the fact that this entire saga is basically like "everyone did everything right except Rhaenyra who was really dumb and batshit crazy" is completely unbelievable. But, it could be a lot of fun for HotD to explore if they handle it right.
Worth noting that Daemon was exiled from Westeros in 111AC. And there’s no accounts of Daemon returning to Westeros until 115AC and Nettles was born in 113AC.
Also there’s the Parallels between Aemond and Daemon throughout their stories but especially here in the story, Aemond is characterized as a fierce loyalist to his brother and the only time his judgment falters is when he meets Alys Rivers and they fly across the Riverlands buring everything down in an effort to draw out Daemon, the roles are reversed and Alys Rivers is the older and Aemond the younger. Also Alys is described as a witch that has some kind of hold on Aemond; He gives her a son, a Dragon egg (possibly one from Vhagar) and he seemingly converts from the traditional Hightower’s belief in the faith of the Seven to The faith of Rhllor. After the death of Aemond and Daemon Nettles and Alys are both left in the Riverlands with Dragons
Fantastic video, there's so much of fire and blood I've completely forgotten. The record as presented by the maesters is quite wild, I've questioned before if the letter about killing her was a total forgery like some of the other letters that were going around. I'd never thought of the idea that Rhaenera might have tried to kill Needles off because she could potentially overturn the whole way dragons were claimed and who could claim them 0_0
LOL I have also forgotten a lot of F&B so digging back into this shit and realizing that these "historians" deadass made shit up and essentially wrote themselves as main characters in these dramas is actually hilarious.
@@HillsAliveYT Makes me think of the history around Nero (If I'm not messing that up?) Basically it was written by the successive dynasty as a form of court drama/history, so there's a lot of like "wait is this real?" going on XD
Oh yeah I know what you mean, I'm not hugely versed in history but I know that the history of Caligula is a little fucking batshit and unbelievable as well. Or you know, at least what I gleaned from the Malcolm McDowell-Helen Mirren movie version.
@@randominternetguyoffical Good point! Nero was so beloved by the common people that several 'false Neros' appeared after his death causing trouble.
Christians in particular had a big hand in ruining Neros reputation.
@@BillyBasd Not being a big Roman history guy I can't really speak to it as much as some but I do know that it's a common occurrence throughout the recording of all of history for things to be greatly mythologized. Like if you study the 2nd World War there's a whole shit load of mythology and misinformation taken as fact and that's something that took place when my grandpa was a kid, so like things that took place over a 1000 years ago suffer this effect even more because they go through reiteration and rediscovery so many times but we're also so far from the origin points that we have no idea what the diligence of those origin points are XD
Even before the Doom, the Targaryens were not only Dragonriding family and most people in the Free Cities carry Valyrian blood. Not only that, but there was a previous Dragonriding civilization, the Great Empire of the Dawn whose scattered descendants are even greater than those of Valyria. Case in point, the Hightowers and Daynes. Also, it seems the Ironborn are descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn through the Grey King a figure who Crowfood's Daughter points is ancestor to many Westerosi houses. In fact it seems most Humans on Planetos descend from that Empire in some shape or form. The power to ride dragons on Planetos is more widespread than the Targaryens want to even contemplate, to put it lightly.
I don’t think it’s ridiculous for her to be jealous and want to get rid of Nettles. In the show atleast, I can see this exact plot going forward. She goes to Laena’s funeral and instead of mourning Harwin with her sons or speaking to Laenas daughters she’s focused on getting Daemon. She’s asking about Laena referring to her cousin as “her” instead of her name. She has to ask for him to marry her instead of the usual opposite. I do believe they’ve portrayed her more into Daemon than Daemon is into her at this point. They also had Oberyn Martell state “The girl Nettles had taken to riding Prince Daemon as well as a Dragon” in a lore video. The writers definitely want to show the toxic marriage as toxic and that includes cheating so whatever is claimed in the books I’m sure it’ll be an affair in the show. It’s also interesting that Daemon could have a change of heart from his Valyrian supremacy” ways if S1 he’s calling non-Valyrian women ugly and refuses to even consummate his marriage and his last season he falls in love with a “plain” girl.
They also seem to want to force Dany themes into this storyline. I think they’ll go for yet another “watch this character dive into madness before they get killed”. Breaking apart a codependent relationship is exactly what they’ll go for while destroying the ‘Targaryens are closer to gods because of dragons’ claim because this random girl just had to feed one to be able to ride.
I might agree under normal circumstances, but to be concerned about Nettles in the Riverlands at the particular point that Rhaenyra's at when she supposedly orders the hit on her is beyond bizarre to me. Like girl, you have bigger problems at the moment.
I'm confused perhaps Nettles was Daemon's child somewhere if the dragon seed theory is to believe after all she was born before daemon married Laena and he hated his first wife, why would Rhaenyra believe Mysaria so much, or perhaps they tempered the history
After reviewing the sections that described the whole Nettles scenario, I am 10000% sure that these "historians" were altering, embellishing, or straight-up making almost everything up.
I agree after all maesters were all from old town and hated woman who willed power yet trust few and not easy to manipulate
I love your theory of Nettles just being an ordinary person who is able to bond with a dragon, and that this would drastically endanger the whole premise of Targaryen exceptionalism, but I wonder if the answer to why Rhaenyra was so against Nettles might possibly be rooted (in the book at least) in plain racism?
Nettles is (as far as I remember) the only person unambiguously described as non-white during the retelling of TDOTD; the Targs already think of themselves as superior to everyone else, so it could be that the non-white peoples of Planetos might be held in even lower regard by them? This factor could quite easily be combined with pretty much any other possible theory as to why Rhaenyra wanted her killed.
I'm aware that this wouldn't work so well in the show though as the Velaryons are portrayed as being Black, but I'm surprised that no-one else appears to take race into consideration in regards to the story as told in the book.
Yeah I definitely think that's a strong possibility as well. Westeros itself is racist as hell (I mean, one of the maesters describes her as ugly despite NEVER ACTUALLY SEEING HER, which definitely reeks of racism/AKA any WoC is "ugly" according to him) and the Valyrians are even more so, so having a non-white non-noble girl with a dragon would likely be an affront to any of their sensibilities. However, zero chance HotD is going to go that route, especially with Rhaenyra and especially since they made the Velaryons black.
@@HillsAliveYT Agreed, there's zero chance of HOTD going that way! Thank for taking the time to read and reply to my comment. I truly appreciate your content, you have a different approach to TWOIAF than most other commentators that resonates with me and many others.
That illustration at 1:15 is epic. First time seeing it, and I have to say it's one of the best fan-art pieces I've seen in a long time 🎨 🖌️🖌️
I’ll be totally honest and this is gonna be really controversial but I think that you don’t need old Valyrian blood to ride dragons, I think it’s a lie started by the families of Old Valyria to keep a monopoly on their power, and keep a strangle hold on the dragon population cause if anyone could ride a dragon then the Valyrian’s would have lost control of their empire pretty fast in the lore the Valyrian where Shepards who stumbled across dragon eggs, allot of the Targaryen’s lore is inspired by the actual English royal family, the founder of the family was called William The Conqueror and even the Dance of The Dragons is inspired by a real life event in English history called The Anarchy, I bring this up because for years William and his descendants always claimed that his line was chosen by God himself to rule England.
I think while it's debatable that Daemon and Nettles were lovers, he must have truly cared for her because he wanted her to survive, and he didn't follow Rhaenyra's order to return back to KL and instead chose to die fighting Aemond. If it was a platonic relationship, there's an added tragedy that these two people didn't commit the crimes that they're being accused of but were just genuine friends.
However the more important part of Nettles that I want the show to portray is of her just being a commoner girl that managed to form a bond with a dragon without any Targaryen/Valyrian blood. I just do not buy that she's supposed to be someone's Valyrian bastard, and it's a lot more meaningful that she's just a nobody that was able to defy the blood supremacy beliefs that the Targaryens propagated throughout the kingdom.
I always wondered if Daemon agreeing with Aemond that he had lived too long had to do (at least in part) with losing Nettles (regardless of their relationship).
George RR Martin has a "thing" about his characters' hair. The blond hair of Cersi's children is the principal starting point of the entire civil war across Westeros in Song of Ice and Fire, and it was only on a second reading that I spotted all the black-haired bastards scattered across the continent who are Robert's children. Giving Nettles "brown skin and black hair" I would say points to her not having Targaryen blood, as their distinctive white-blond hair is well known.
I thought Nettles character said that anyone could claim and ride a dragon with the skill to manage them. Like a wild dog they can be trained.
I liked nettles, very little explanation of her character was done in the books because of its nature, but I still liked her.
So I was glad that she was pretty much the only dragon rider to survive the dance.
Did Rhaenyra really give that much thought to Nettles initially ? After she ascended the throne and the time had come to reward the Dragonseeds for their service to her cause, Rhaenyra seemed to ignore Nettles and think only of what was owed to the MALE Dragonseeds.
Despite the fact that she had to fight against those who would steal her right to the Iron Throne because she was a woman, Rhaenyra was no champion for the rights of other women. I doubt she noticed the brown girl enough to think her a threat to Targaryen POWER. Why would people assume Nettles was proof that a non-Targaryan could bond with a dragon? The fact that she didn't look like a Targ didn't mean that it was impossible for her to have had Targaryen blood.
I believe that as her grip on power in her divided kingdom grew tenuous and the people turned against Rhaenyra, it is very plausible that paranoia and sexual jealousy might also come in to play, especially with Mysaria egging it on.
Both women probably sensed that the dalliance with this particular girl, was different from all the other Daemon flings. And it terrified them.
Mysaria, for all her hard-gained wealth and power, probably thought she'd outlast the Queen and get Daemon to herself in the end. So she'd be all for helping Rhaenyra spot and get rid of a romantic rival to both of them.
And for all the side pieces both Rhaenyra and Deamon had during their marriage, they always found their way back to each other. Except this time, Daemon's relationship seemed serious and was a real threat because there appeared to be a deep bond with this common street girl.
The fact that Rhaenyra never showed any jealousy of other women in Daemon's life was because at least on the show, she was never around him when he was serious about any other woman.
I think the relationship with Nettles is a final redemptive story arc for Daemon who near the end of his life, selflessly saved the girl. With her, he had experienced a purer, less complicated and probably more satisfying love than he ever experienced with anyone else.
Yes, she was underaged. But if you're going to count Targ incest as normal then..........
I don't like the argument that the incestuous relationship between the Targs is "normal" then every other taboo relationship is normal, too in comparison. The incest in the Targ family is NOT normal whatsoever. Their inbreeding is based on race superiority and genetic engineering. They believe to be superior because they have the blood of the dragon, and in my opinion, I take that claim quite seriously considering how much their Valaryian counterparts were obsessed with blood magic. There are theories that Valayrians are dragon/human hybrids, and it's not far-fetched to believe. Targs, from conception to their abhorrent need to conquer and rule through blood purity, have never been presented as "normal" or ideal. It's weird and damaging on a personal level and on the whole of Westeroes.
@@Hi-Hi1990 Of course it isn't normal or acceptable by today's standards. And yes, the Targs did mistakenly think anything they did was acceptable just because they did it. But stating that many common practices during feudal times were different from today isn't being done to excuse such behavior. I'm saying it to point out the inconsistency of those who are horrified by the accepted belief that a female was a woman at 12, but were happy to ship a man and his niece as a romantic couple.
Great stuff!
You rightly point out that the 'history' of the dragonseeds downfall is highly dubious.
The stories are written to achieve a goal. This goal being that women are too unhinged to rule. The stories have Rhaenrya losing her mind from grief and jealousy.
Sounds like propaganda
Love the discussion Fire and Blood causes. I see this situation as maybe Rhaenyra becoming frustrated with the war and Daemon being away for such a long time. Maybe Myseria was taking advantage of her weakness and whispering lies to Rhaenyra to get Nettles away from the equation for some reason
I love that, maybe make it even deeper Rhaenyra hears the lies and uses them as a cover to disguise that she wants to get rid of nettles in order to get rid of the evidence that anyone could tame a dragon.
And Myseria and Rhaenyra have completely different reasons for wanting to get rid of nettles and are hiding those desires from the other.
I hope the show doesn't whitewash rhaenyra's deterioration into a proto mad queen but after the first season I fear that will be the case
Whitewash??? Are you just throwing words around???
@@vickytaa1 Type "define whitewash" into google and see what you find. Be sure to read every definition.
@@vickytaa1are you ok lol
@@coldhands4799 yep. just a little baffled that we are now throwing around terms that used to be important to exposed racist storytelling. we are talking about white washing... a white character. white washing used to mean making white a character who was originally of colour, which is a racist trope.
@@vickytaa1 A word can have multiple meanings, whitewashing has been used to mean: covering up vices, crimes or scandals for like a long ass time, its not something new
Rhaenyra and the way contemporary record keepers talked about her reminds me of historical figures like Cleopatra. Powerful women whose historical recountings were so filled with misogynistic propaganda, it's basically impossible to know what's true and what's a lie.
Great theory, I'm leaning towards the show not doing something like this if only because they've "muddied the waters" for lack of a better term, on just what looks valerian and who could reasonably be blood of the dragon.
Mushroom seems like he’s just a medieval Version of someone who would write erotic fan fiction about supernatural or Buffy. He can’t be believed.
There is more evidence in F&B to show that Targaryens telling everyone only they can control dragons is nothing but propaganda. When Elissa Farman stole and sold the three dragon eggs to fund the construction of her ship Sun Chaser, Jaeherys was predominantly concerned about someone hatching them and using the dragons as war weapons. Why would this be a concern if only Targaryens can control dragons? Even if only those of Valyrian descent could control dragons, it would mean there is still an awful lot of people in both Westeros and Essos capable of dragon control. At the very least the Velaryons and the Celtigars should all be able to become dragon riders.
Yeah that is an interesting question with some interesting potential answers as well, because the only two real options there seem to be that Jaehaerys knows that others can control dragons or he literally does not know enough about dragons to know whether or not they'll hatch without Targaryen influence.
I dont know maybe because theirs a possibility that someone could pull a Dany or that a person may have blood of one of those 40 familys
This is why Fire & Blood is one of my favorite books by George. There may be little dialogue, but it leaves you to interpret how true Fire & Blood really is.
I honestly feel like Daemon and Nettles as lovers make far more sense than her being his daughter and him acting as a surrogate father figure to her. The show deliberately cut any scenes of him being emotional or vulnerable with his own legitimate daughters so why would he be so carrying and affectionate with a girl who isn't his. Daemon has a history of being very much attracted to women who are bold and who are dragon riders. Laena and Rhaenyra are perfect examples of this. However, if the show gives us anything, it's that his interest in them seems to wane after a time. A new, young dragon rider girl with a spitfire nature definitely seems like the type he'd want to become involved with in an unfatherly way.
So why was Nettles (and I guess maybe the other dragonseeds too, I suppose) the first non-highborn to claim a dragon? (Especially if Nettles proves you don't have to have Valyrian blood to claim a dragon...) The books make it seem like there's scads of dragonseeds and the descendants of dragonseeds everywhere on dragonstone/driftmark, and scads of dragons hanging out on Dragonstone. Maybe the dragonkeepers would prevent that (except what if a dragonkeeper tries to claim a dragon, or is bribed to let someone try to claim a dragon...) For all the politicking in Westeros, why do we hear nothing about politicking with the dragonkeepers? No bribes, political appointments, etc. Serious blind spot from GRRM???
I would guess that maybe it's a combo of dragons being isolated from most people, most people being terrified of them (I mean, understandably, I imagine 99.99% of people would not want to approach a dragon even if given the opportunity), and effective Targaryen propaganda? I think that the current Targaryens definitely believe they're super special dragon gods and I think there is at least some truth to that, but given how much intelligence GRRM attributes to dragons, it actually doesn't make sense that a dragon would NEVER be able to bond with anyone who wasn't a Targaryen or Valyrian dragonlord. However, I also think that given how few dragons there are, how few people get the opportunity to interact with them or would even want to, and the prevalence of the belief that only Targaryens can become dragonriders was enough to make Nettles one-of-a-kind.
Propaganda that you need to be of Valariyan blood to ride a dragon.
Also, Alyssa Farman did steal 3 dragon eggs...
@@adefay2811 that didnt hatch your point
also its more than likely shes a dragon seed the possibility that the valerians made creatures that anyone could ride is very unlikely especially with the theory about how dragons are made and the Valyrian connection to them its far more plausible shes descended from the targs or velaryons considering how long they lived on the island also considering the keepers are the ones who watch over the most powerful weapons at this era Is wager their intensely trained to not be like other guards
All these are good reasons, and there are more. Obviously reason #1 is that they're an absolute hazard, but they're probably expensive too. They built that Dragonpit just to house them a safe but somewhat practical distance from the Red Keep, and food and dragonkeeper labor don't come cheap. I still think the biggest mystery surrounding Nettles is how she so reliably sourced those sheep before she had a dragon to back her up.
But probably the biggest other reason is that claiming a dragon is conspicuous, and the House of the Dragon has every incentive to shut it down. By the time it's big enough to upset any authority, it's big enough for Vhagar to notice. The Sowing of the Seeds was probably the first time that the tacit Targaryen threat against even trying to hatch or befriend a dragon was withdrawn. And we're not sure if a winning Targaryen faction with dragons would have allowed a dragonseed to live.
I like your interpretation of Nettles not being a true dragonseed and Rhaenyra using jealousy as a cover. The Targaryens have used their supposed superiority and mastery of dragons to justify their existence in Westeros. If anyone can actually take a dragon, they are not the gods among men they claim to be and why should they be the ones who get to keep the throne? Without dragons, Targaryens really don’t have another play to make.
Why would anyone assume she wasn't a true dragon seed? LOL People act as if "mixed" isn't a thing. Black Americans are "Britishseeds" in the same way she was a Targ, despite many being darkskinned.
I can't wait for when Nettles shows up. The Targs are all about "blood purity", sibling fucking, cages, Valyrian, etc, and then Nettles - a young woman with possibly no Targ blood - shows up and is like:
It's a cat lol. Just feed it a wait.
I think they were bestie that eventually became lovers later, because the daughter theory make no sense. The dates don't correspond, so she can't be his daughter by blood. I do think Nettles is not Valyrian but capable to tame a dragon on her own way and Rhaenyra felt threatened by her for both things, as queen and as wife. Rhaenyra had possessive attitude with Daemon, it's like she can't forgive him for giving gifts and attention to another woman. In the book she doesn't mind when he sleep with Mysaria but goes crazy when she knows about Nettles and him. In the Show 2 are the options, it's either them having platonic relationship and Rhaenyra being paranoid about them or them actually having affair. I tink in the Show they will probably make D&N lovers, considering Showrunners don't really care about Daemon as father figure and they made him darker rather than grey, compared to the book. I do believe Show Rhaenyra is jealous type because before they sleep together at his wife funeral lol she asks him if he loved her, she was obviously searching confirmation if he has ever loved another woman than her, and when he tell her he has been happy she was upset. It's like Rhaenyra always thought to be special for Daemon, but when she finds out he loves someone else, that delusion is crumbling too, so she has felt betrayed for it and he doesn't even return to her. I think they will go for this route because they have more sources about that, than the platonic route. About ages, i don't find that a problem. They messed up the timeline so their ages is not corresponding to the book and defenitely Nettles is gonna be older than 17. Whatever route they will choose, i'll enjoy it because i liked their dynamic cause Daemon seems to care genuinely about Nettles. I'm excited to know who they will cast.
I liked it a lot more before the Velaryon casting cause the whole point is that she had no Valyrian features, but the Velaryons have already had brown skin and rode dragons so its less of a shock...
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Wow! Fascinating, and very compelling theory! How long have you been sitting on this one? Because of you, I am now even more primed to be disappointed by how #HouseOfTheDragon plans to adapt Nettles. I'm not a fan of making Daemon have an affair with Nettles, and have that cause tension between him and Rhaenyra. The complexity of your theory is far more interesting.
I don't think there is enough evidence that this might be the case in the actual book canon, so it would be a complete show invention. That said, George could make it happen if he adapts more novellas in the period of the Dance of the Dragons. But he's already got a lot on his plate, and I'd rather he finishes ASOIAF and The Tales of Dunk & Egg first. Nonetheless, it is a possibility. If #HotD adapted your theory the internet would explode. The fact that Nettles is black would add even more to the conversation. Personally, I want to see it happen. Great video!
Yeah because women freaking over someone their man slept with that never happens doesn't? I mean come on I've never seen that happen in real life. And it has nothing to do with misogyny at all.
“She is a common thing, with the stink of sorcery upon her,” the queen declared. “My prince would ne’er lay with such a low creature. You need only look at her to know she has no drop of dragon’s blood in her. It was with spells that she bound a dragon to her, and she has done the same with my lord husband.” So long as he was in the girl’s thrall, Prince Daemon could not be relied upon, Her Grace went on. Therefore, let a command be sent at once to Maidenpool, but only for the eyes of Lord Mooton. “Let him take her at table or abed and strike her head off. Only then shall my prince be freed.”
I knew a soldier who found out his wife was cheating on him when he was overseas, so he attempted suicide so that he could get sent back home for psych reasons. This story has the same vibes, people don't always act in a rational or logical manner. If you wanna say "well she was a leader, she would have acted differently" don't worry I've got about a dozen stories of leaders losing their mind because of family, or stress, or just because they thought they could get away with shit.
That being said the way everyone with a pen paints themselves as a self insert hero is strange for sure, but yeah, don't underestimate the mess that is humanity.
I bet any amount of money that the show winners at HBO doing House of the Dragon will not include Rhaenyra, wearing the execution of nettles, because house of the dragon is nothing but team black propaganda and making Reynera out to be girl boss girl power queen who can do no wrong in the eyes of the viewers
Where does power reside?
Wherever the dragon thinks it does.
🐑
Hello there, I just wanted to ask you if you could consider a character analysis on Wanda Maximoff. Because I saw many misogyny, sexism and bad writing (almost the same as Quetsia from TVD) translate into that character who could have been so much more. I was inspired by you critical representation of TVD characters and completely agree with you in every aspect. If you don't consider her than I'd be happy if you could make a analysis on characters like Matt Donovan or Alaric and explain your opinion. Love to hear your thoughts.
Yeah I'll definitely keep those in mind! Weirdly while I am not into the mainstream MCU much at all, Wanda was my favorite character in the franchise for a while until they kinda flopped with her character.
So I haven't read the books but when I heard your recount of the story my first thought was "oh this Nettles girl is a threat to the Targaryen's sense of superiority". There absolutely could be some misogyny behind how Rhaenyra was characterized (there also seems to be a quite a bit of it behind how Nettles is characterized) but her literal statement about the girl not having any Targaryen blood and bewitching her husband/the dragon makes perfect sense to me. Rather than this being a misrepresentation of what she actually said it was something she said to explain how Nettles was able to do something that is supposed to be impossible. Weather she believe it to be true literally or not, she would understand the treat that Nettles is a threat simply by existing. Regular people are not supposed to be capable of becoming dragon riders. The fact that everyone feels the need to constantly mention that Nettles is poor, brown, young, and insignificant seems important because it draws a contrast between her and the Targaryens. I don't think you are making a stretch i think that is the explanation that makes the most sense. As for Daemon he's a pile of scum and even if he did see Nettles like a daughter that doesnt seem like the sort of thing that would stop him from having a sexual relationship with her. His "overly enthusiastic" interest in her could also be because he she was able to tame a dragon through kindness rather than kinship. I image he would find her fascinating.
All that being said, judging by the TV show's current trackrecord with sex/race I doubt I will get a characterization that we want. So I low key hope the show does make her an actual witch who used magic to seduce Daemon and a dragon because atleast that will be fun.
Does this person even know what misogyny means? Both men and women tend to get upset about being cheated on. Its fine to doubt whether that was her motivation but to claim misogyny because men thought a lady might not have enjoyed her husband cheating is absurd.
the misogyny is much more bigger picture in regards to the maesters wanting to paint Rhaenyra as a mad queen at least in part because it provided 'proof' that women weren't fit to rule or hold power. I.e. they are misogynists who don't want women to rule and Rhaenyra is the literal personification of their fear and mistrust. Of course they'll tend toward interpreting her actions in negative and biased ways, even if the situation at hand wouldn't otherwise call for it, e.g. being cheated on. Her being mad at being cheated on is understandable, but their framing of Rhaenyra's actions is clearly inclined toward the idea that she overreacted and was mad and cruel, etc.and even Daemon manages to look sympathetic in the same tale. This is not accidental, and recognising the misogyny in it is not absurd, nor, say, an overraction or madness...
“Most teenage girls are not thirsting over 50 year old men, regardless of how rich and famous those men are.”
She never seen Johnny Depp Twitter
Somehow I doubt Johnny Depp Twitter accurately represents the average teenage girl.
@@epileptictrees5213 This sir, was a joke based on how many young women tend to like older heartthrobs- Johnny Depp just being a recent example to get a half assed point across. (Benedict Cumberbatch, Ryan Reynolds, Ryan Gosling, etc). But to be more unfunny and clear, no, not all young women are third thing over old hot men - just more than one would think, enough to make this joke funny. Lmao
Your channel is amazing love the quality content ❤
It'll be interesting to see GRRM and the Showrunner's final take for Nettles. Is she Daemon's daughter, lover, maybe just a Dragonseed friend he made that he respects or owed a favor too?
Not to mention, the number of Dragonseeds around raises questions, seemingly a couple dozen at least.
Interesting to think, are all these dragonseeds 1st or 2nd etc generation Targaryens? Like, were all the Targaryen men before this time all just banging any good looking maidens on the island and... no one knew or took notice? Or made comments? Especially given the personalities and track records of some of these previous Targaryens King's, seems doubtful they'd belong to certain ones than others.
And like, do they mention which Targaryen they hail from? Maybe Daemon or Jaehaerys' sons spilled some "Dragonseed" before they married their spouses we now know of? And how far back is this? Orys was a bastard of Aerion Targaryen's, who's to say he was the only one. And if so, perhaps even some Dragonseeds are just descendants of ones from WAY back, before Aegon the Conqueror and even his father.
And I thought some other people of the Valyrian race were on Dragonstone too, descendants of those who came over to Dragonstone with Aenar Targaryen as his servants and small allies.
So much Lore for a seemingly small island overall...
Still, the Dance will kill most of them off as well. Seems that all Valyrians in Westeros, whether Man or Beast, did truly suffer during the Dance of Dragons. A new "Doom of Valyria" in a way.
Well I would need to double check but I think that the Targs actually were semi-openly running around with a lot of different people and because of their status as "gods among men" it was seen as some kind of blessing to be smashed by them. But, given the portrayal of Nettles, I feel like it's not entirely unbelievable that some of these "dragonseeds" aren't actually Targaryens or even Valyrians.
@@HillsAliveYT
Thanks for the response! Great channel btw. 👏
I remember Jaehaerys speaking of the Dragonseeds himself, and said that often times "gifts were given", in a video concerning Orys Baratheon's origins. Maybe you're right too, they were seen as special people so some of the fishermen had maiden daughters who, if they were attractive enough to catch the eye of a Targaryen, wouldn't have minded bearing their "Dragonseeds". And I guess it was still low key, since we hear little of them outside of the Dance or slightly before.
As for Nettles;
Well, the Valyrians don't all have to explicitly look Valyrian to carry the blood of the Dragon in them. She could be a distant Dragonseed in a line of previous Dragonseeds for all we know... which admittedly is little.
Nettles fed sheep to the Dragon to make it friendly but she may still have been a Dragonseed. Sure, some people maybe wanting to try their luck and went to try to tame a Dragon knowing they weren't of Valyrian blood is entirely possible but, I don't think anyone has ever bonded with a Dragon without the Valyrian blood. Others failed to bond with the Dragons so she was taking another approach to it.
Some people just get lucky, some Dragons aren't in the mood, etc. But unless you have guts like Baelon or Aemond in regards to a Dragon like Vhagar, then I can see some Valyrians still getting flamed on. One of Corlys' Dragonseeds tries to tame Sheepstealer and gets slightly burned so, for a Valyrian man/woman to want to take precautions before attempting to ride a Dragon known for attacking others before you would make sense.
That said, you may be completely right and she's not a Valyrian or a Dragonseed, and GRRM may have her as a sort of "Easter Egg" moment where we just have one, and only one, case of a non-Valyrian person bonding with a Dragon.
I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere in canon that Targaryens practised lord's first night tradition on Dragonstone, and any women who managed to get pregnant from it and give birth to a living child were treated as special and given loads of money, so nobody really complained about it. But, yeah, many many smallfolk on Dragonstone are descended from the dragonlords. It's not a secret in Westeros.
I’m a be honest I never understood the appeal with this character it’s not that I hate her it’s just I feel completely apathetic I’m just like oh wow this character exists I feel nothing I feel so bad because people are so excited about her and I just can’t get the appeal
She was supposed to be undeniably, not targaryen/valyrian in the books the Velaryons are white and almost exactly like the Targaryen's in appearance and the other dragonseeds are white as well (her having brown skin, eyes, hair).
She's supposed to have us question the whole only blood of old valyria can ride a dragon.
Also she's pretty badass.
Even tough I am team green, I feel Rhaenyra was right about getting rid of Nettles.
You are forgeting an important factor, Deamon. As you stated in your video about him, he still lusts for the throne, he just loves Rhaenyra and Viserys more than power. But what if there was a woman who he loves more than her. Jace and Luce are dead (I am not sure about Joffery, but he could be dead too at this point), and Daemon has already 2 hiers with her to take over if Rhaenyra died. He would be regent until their chieldren grow up. Nettles's relationship if real, would pose a real threat to her if it were true.
She would probably feel like Cersei did after hearing Maggy the Frog's prophecy: "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
Taking out Nettles was a logical step from her point of view, even if it cost her a dragonrider.
How disappointing no Nettels In the show. They are truly removing any interesting concepts from the show.
Given how both characters have positioned themselves on the topic of prophecy, I can absolutely see your assessment turning out true with Raenera seeing Nettles as a threat to the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy and Daemon outright rejecting it as nonesense.
She could become unhinged about Nettles if she felt Daemon could leave Rhaenyra for her.
Nettles should be portrayed as Daemon's bastard daughter. The text is vague enough for it to work. Maesters don't know the true story
"Objectivity is objective, in my subjective opinion."
-Bilbo Baggins
Yup, this will be tricky to adapt to the show, it will all come down to Nettles characterization and how believable her affair with Daemon is... The balancing act will be that people will probably hate her right away because we're already invested in Rhaenyra, and there might be the temptation of making Rhaenyra less likable to improve Nettles standing with the audience. Very tough narrative problem IMO and I am curious to see how it will go
They already have tried to make Rhaenyra appeal to the audience more than the story led on so i wouldnt be surprised if they have Daemon be as evil as possible.
@@okdude8215 something I like about the writers of this show is that character behavior is very consistent with their own agendas and values, so however it shows up in the show, will hopefully feel like genuine from the character
I like the way and angle you come at this. Because wouldn't this be a problem for Daemon as well? People with no connection to his bloodline gaining dragons.
Because it would be dangerous for Daemon as well. Because at that time believe it or not there were way better fighters and skilled Knights than Daemon.
Whose to say a elite family with a better skilled knight and dragon just as fierce/big as his. Wouldn't come along and overpower him.
That only thing that kept their enemies as bay were the dragons. Now imagine people hearing about Nettles. Going out and actually taking dragons and actually being better and more skilled at it.
Show Theory: Nettles tames Sheepstealer like a normal animal because she doesn't know the fancypants way of claiming a dragon, tapping into the way the first Valyrians went from shepherds to dragon riders. Rhaenyra finds out from Alicent what really happened with Luke and Aemond, which begins to sour her on Valyria's legacy. Meanwhile, Nettles gives Daemon hope for a new Valyria after the war and he ends up liking running on hope instead of pure spite. He begins to think of Nettles as a daughter and gets really clingy for emotional support. Daemon's love language is gift giving, which looks bad with Nettles because of how he was when he was younger. Maybe Daemon gets a dragon dream. If Daemon gets a dragon dream Rhaenyra thinks Nettles sparked it, so it looks like Rhaenyra just thinks Nettles is a witch. Rhaenyra fears Daemon being consumed by obsession over recreating Valyria and prophecy like her father and nearly herself so she orders Nettles' death. If Daemon survives the war, he goes to Essos and finds the eggs that eventually become Dany's.
Is there a chance Needles was Daemon´s bastard daughter? It could explain why something that look like a secret affair is just a reconection between father and daughter and everything was just minsuderstanding. But I guess that would have being too idyllic for House of the Dragon, I guess.
How cool would it be if she was actually a sorceress?
My personal theory is that Nettles may have been Daemon's bastard daughter.
Interesting!!! I hadn't put much thought regarding the Nettles situation, but I gotta say, you're most likely right. It makes much more sense
I don't know I believe the mushroom thing that sounds like the kind of wistful thing somebody in a very stressful situation might say about a servant.
Doesn't seem like we'll be seeing Nettles after all 😢
This interpretation rings so true. If you're right, then GRRM yet again distracts the reader by placing several conflicting possibilities on the table, while the full truth is concealed somewhere else entirely.
This video touches upon a point I've been hoping to see explored more. Hobbes talks about the concept of "natural equality" which is that any man can in principle kill or defeat any other. This is fundamentally why power is something of an illusion, as varys tells tyrion. Dragons throw a huge wrench into this, turning a dragonrider into a one man army. Frankly, the mere fact that the targaryens produced numerous dragon riders, with the strongest dragons not being passed from father to son, made the dance inevitable(Maegor being a precursor).
I've wondered whether a reason Viserys stuck to his choice of Rhaenyra as his heir, is that he wanted to consolidate power over dragons in the crown by keeping the secrets of dragon *hatching* between Ruler and Heir, and having already passed it on to rhaenyra, he'd inevitably create two rival lines by passing it onto aegon.
Sorry for being so tangential, I love your videos.
I think that Daemon sees Nettles as akin to his daughter and is amused and enthralled by her ingenuity and pluck.
i have a feeling they might replace Nettles with Rhaena, it would be the same dynamic seeing as its his actual daughter. i primarily think this because the show has explicity drawn our attention to the fact that she doesnt have a dragon. it would also make sense for her to go to with daemon to avenge her bethrothed lucerys.
I would be bummed by that given that the dragonseeds are one of the few personalized glimpses that we get of the common people and how the Dance affected them.
@@HillsAliveYT i agree i can just see it being something they might do to streamline the story and give more purpose to already established characters. game of thrones did this with Gendry becoming Edric as an example. or the merging of the tyrells into Loras
Rhaena isn’t a fighter and the complete opposite of Nettles. Nettles isn’t interchangeable to anyone. Rhaena is gentle and sweet. Her purpose is to be the last dragon rider with Morning. They’ll change her character into a Sansa/margaery type character. She’s supposed to be different from her sister. Making them the same is actually disrespectful and ruins the characters. Lukes “vengeance” is done by Daemon it makes more sense for Rhaenyra, the boys mother, to go with him.
@@monie3558 my point isnt that its a good idea just i can see them doing it
The way you predicted it 😂
I'd wondered about this, especially with the theories that there have been wild dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens. Why not wild dragon riders too?
I love your point of view, and I think it is most likely the case as even Rhaenyra said in the show they are ordinary without dragons, and it's in Martin's fashion...But I do like the specialness of 'dragon blood'! And a point to it could be the strength of their appearance features genes.
I believe they would give Vermithor to Rhaena, so there would be no betrayal on that side. But to make it interesting it could be nettles who betray blacks:)
Yesssssssss I've always wanted to believe that Nettles was a normal girl and now Hill's Alive has provided me with some logic to back. It. Up!!! 😍😍😍😍
i’ve only skimmed fire and blood but i am familiar with nettles, super excited to see the dragonseeds and nettles x damon fancams 😭 deffo hoping for a more father/daughter vibe, similar to arya and the hound
Daemon was in essos, i hope she's his child actually
Something that I think helps cement this theory is a simply question.
How did people begin becoming dragonriders? Entirely through magic? Or did someone treat the dragon nicely, giving it gifts and offerings of food until the dragon trusted them enough to let them ride.
It’s hard to say who Nettles was to Daemon. I mean, Mushroom made up a lot of salacious stories, like Daemon and Alicent being lovers, with no veracity. I have this feeling that Nettles is his illegitimate dragonseed daughter because that’s what season 2 is setting up-the arrival of the dragonseeds.
Nettles being a child of damon was always my preferred choice.
If Nettles isn’t played by Zendaya I don’t want it
~ Agree, it would be very dangerous if she was a walking ad that said anyone can try to claim a dragon...still we do not always look like our ancestors even recent ones!~
Why won't ya'll let Rhaenyra have flaws? Her decision was the result of paranoia, with dash of prejudice, and maybe a sprinkle of jealousy. Mysaria had been proven to be a dependable spy. Not only by Rhaenyra, but also by Daemon. So, it was easy for Rhaenyra to believe her. At that point Rhaenyra already didn't trust the dragon seeds because of the betrayal. When Mysaria told her about Nettles she freaked out because of her own prejudices. Nettles has a foreign appearance and does not meet the beauty standards of Westeros. Hence, she felt like her husband wouldn't go to her unless Nettles used magic. And she might have already been suspecting Nettles of using magic to tame the dragon, because she had no Valyrian features and used an unusual method, so this was just the final nail in the coffin. Now she might have thought, if this girl used magic to get my husband into bed with her, what else can she get him to do? Afterall, unlike Alyn and Addam, she had no real attachments. So she decided to send someone to kill her and free Daemon from the spell. The extreme nature of the order, does suggest a bit of jealousy. The actual words Rhaenyra used are debatable, but the fact that she gave the order isn't really.
Also, why is it hard to believe that Daemon and Nettles had an affair?
because hills alive demonizes everything that Rhaenyra does. I honestly think that the reason that Rhae mistrusted Nettles is also bc Mysaria was constantly telling her stuff abt nettles, at that point of the story Rhaenyra was extremely paranoic and felt really bad because she had lost most of her children, she felt lonely. I dont agree with her wanting to execute Nettles at all, but i think i understand why she felt sm rage.
I'd like to think that Nettles wasn't in a relationship with Daemon, the accounts just don't seem to line up.
A lot of this analysis is pretty bad. It’s VERY plausible that Rhaenyra would lash out against Daemon when she’s been betrayed so many times, but saw him as someone who supported her claim. I don’t think you understand love and relationships very well…. It’s not misogyny at all, just jealousy and insecurity. She feels connected to Daemon and I think the idea of him cheating with another dragon rider would be particularly irksome to Rhaenyra. If the reverse were the case, one could argue that Daemon was misogynistic to lash out against Rhaenyra. Truth is, humans are jealous and ESPECIALLY jealous when they feel vulnerable. I can tell the author of this video has not had a lot of life experience in relationships
I am still with Grey Area's theory that she is a witch, in fact the witch that lives in the same set of mountains that the hill tribes live in. Don't the Burned Men talk about the enchantress in a cave in the mountains? Did Sheepstealer scorch them making them Burned Men?
Nettles is totally giving Zendaya vibes. Also I didn’t read the books so excuse me if I’m ignorant, but Nettles just leaves on a dragon and that’s it? No word or sight of her ever again? On a dragon? Where are the speculation videos on that because I’m curious.
apparently she ended up somewhere on the mountains of the moon, by the Vale. Some of the mountain people would speak of a witch/goddess and her dragon living in a cave and some would give her animal sacrifices as a kind of cult. So she must have lived for a few decades there, and I don't think there's any mention of Sheepstealer after that.
"It may be that we will be destroyed no matter what we do."
George loves to set up this kind of situation.
She won't be in the show they will just use rhena
I think that's a good thing.
honestly I feel like this whole story is to help setup Tyrion getting a chance to ride one of dani’s dragons. Tyrion has “possible” relations to house Targaryen but gets close to dragons through his own ingenuity. The idea that she was ordered to be killed to hide this information seems like the most plausible reason from both a character standpoint and a plot standpoint to help grrm setup the ideas he’s been wanting to setup throughout the story
I prefer she was a child of the forest more specificly Leaf
Imagine Zendaya as Nettles!!
💀