Why has Tyrion stopped being clever?
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Tyrion is only as smart as the writers can make him. As soon as they were out of source material, tyrion got REALLY stupid.
In Tyrion's defense, he only suggested retrieving a wight. Jon and Jorah was the ones who volunteered themselves to go North, and he even told Dany not to go and try to rescue them. Tyrion also had no way of knowing Casterly Rock was out of gold and had no further value for the Lannisters.
@@thegreatpage5912 Even if it is out of gold, its tax base has value, idk how many people are there but if it is an economic center it could have a lot of value.
No, the writers revealed their own intelligence; or lack thereof....
Well said bud
Proves how bad the writers were. Game of Flop.
It takes a smart writer to create lines for a smart character. Varys is practically mute now.
I agree, but also Varys was always going to become unnecessary after they decided to cut out the (f)Aegon storyline that’s in the books. There’s no point for his character now
@@slorps6559 Poor Griff.
Yeah now I just look for Varys' reactions in the background. You make a whole video on his facial expressions zoomed in.
Im not a fan of season 7 -8 writing at all but.. A lot of the varys littlefinger scenes in the early seasons were written by d&d . in the books they are less prominent if i recall correctly. Please correct me if im wrong though, been a while
lol
"They must be building to something"
Oh, honey, no, they really weren't.
Poor sweet summer child
Oh they were building to something. The shit pile that was the final two seasons to ruin the series and at least half the characters...
I think that this person just wanted to have hope
They were building to the breakdown of Daenery's and Tyrions relationship
🤣🤣
It's depressing reading this now... It's like... Nope. It wasn't the writers giving Tyrion a secret. It's just bad writing
Well Tyrion may have got what he wanted, so maybe he was having a secret and was being smart. He got Daenarys to go north, the got Cersei and Daenarys of the iron throne, and he got one of the Starks in charge and saved most of the people he believed in and trusted. He was right not to trust Daenerys, though his mistrust may also have contributed to his queens fall. Point of a matter is that you can see how it can be argued all along that Tyrion was smart, even if mistrust or lack of faith may still have caused a less desirable outcome. It is one thing to know the truth, another to trust it, and yet another to live it.
Just wait until the real books come out, they are going to be completely different than this shit TV show
"Does he actually have a secret plan we don't know about yet?" You give way too much credit to these writers...
G.R.R.M IS A FAT FUCK
Eric Stevens Ok kiddo
I think giving d&d the title "writers" is giving them way too much credit. And I think toxic fandom has ruined any chance of GRRM ever finishing the story. Thank Christ Mr Tolkien had a work ethic and understood the reader/writer contract implicit in publishing multi part stories.
@@taikajorma7276 He is a fat fuck tho be real lol. He's a Tolkein fanboy who wrote Lotr fan fiction and cashed in then gave up.
@@elias_xp95
lotr fanfiction with epic Le zoomer red pill?
No character has suffered as badly from GRRM's absence as Tyrion :(
littlefinger's role was gutted too. most wasted death in the shows history.
Stannis would like a word with you.
Stannis
@Ken Harris Making your magnum opus as perfect as possible with the time you have left on this earth isn't laziness. People always think those stupid College Humor skits are a real depiction of Grrm.
Thomas Carroll D&D spoke extensively w GRRM. They knew his plans for Tyrion.
It must have been so depressing for Peter Dinklage to read his lines post-books.
if he had any lines that is
He can wipe his tears with the millions per episode his contract gives.
@@todd7684 i think you mean million not millions
He was thinking: " a few episodes more and this crap will be over...".
@Azrael ben abraha The books haven't reached that part yet. And there isn't a Night King in the books except a Night's King who doesn't have anything to do with the show's Night King
You can't write a clever character if you are not a clever writer.
Clever
the fans are much dumber
Fortune Maker You’re not a fan? Why are you here? Lol
@@last7509 It looks like you are one of the show lover who haven't read the books
@@thejudge9162 the books arent bad but they arent anything much above mediocre, GRR Martin is just a thinly veiled pretentious edgelord and it shows in his writing
Tyrion's intelligence came from George Martin's intelligence
Tyrion is dumb now because he’s written by dumb people now
Awgieable The show doesn’t go off the books anymore. Martin does even watch it anymore because of how different it is
@@butsargeee So sad.
THANK YOU!!
@@Awgieable and it is said. I say it
Long answer: the video
Short answer: because he isn't written by George R.R. Martin anymore
not rly as he was successful before and is not anymore thats a decision not a writing style
@@DaxRaider I can see how my comment can be misunderstood. I didn't really mean it that way. It's just a dumb joke and the video itself isn't even about how the writers of got are worse at constructing realistic characters than Martin :)
quick answer: they made everyone stupid, to make sansa smarter
While the show as a show continues to be quite good the writing has really suffered, as has the organization of the overarching plotlines and thema. These latter things are Dave and Dan's most important job after getting the whole thing to keep flying and I think they've nearly failed. They've lost whole sub-sections (failure of the entire Dorne series) and shifted gears so many times that it's just about a miracle they've made it to this point with some few things intact. I think they've only saved themselves by having had the luck and connections to have hired the best directors, casting directors, and cinematographers around. I think they've wandered 100 times too many into the editing rooms and changed their minds just about relentlessly: There are clearly scenes here (S8: I, II) that were rushed as cover for changes (think about the 18 months they've had to get this right).
TLDR: The producers have caught a case of George Lucasitis and have nearly aborted their full grown child. Half of Tyrion's failures are a ham-handed betrayal and half are just poor writing, editing, and mostly producing.
@@Biomirth Nah, they're just plain bad. Always were. Season 1 you can see how intricately everything leads up to Ned's death because they followed the books completely. Then later we have "You want the good subplot, but you need the bad pussy" aka Sand Snakes aka a disgrace to the art of writing as a whole, and for what? Nothing came out of it, just Bron and Jaime going on a stupid adventure to fill a few episodes with lots of nothing.
Stannis did a 180 on his character, going from "Everything I do is to put my daughter on the Iron Throne" to "Burn her I guess, wifey says so, not in the mood for nagging"
And Littlefinger COMPLETELY turned off his character before his death. Saw all the signs of a shitstorm brewing and went like "Guess I'll just wait it out, see what tomorrow brings"
The entire plot right now is just run-of-the-mill good vs evil, and has been the last few seasons. No intricate power struggles, no backstabbings, no actual *Game* of Thrones left, just shitty teenage writing that's not even actually good. Compare it to shit like Harry Potter, Maze Runner, Percy Jackson, and it still falls short.
As soon as they saw sign of these woeful hacks having no actual talent (which, if you ask me, happened way back in Season 4) they should've replaced them.
They clearly fail to understand even the most basic concepts of what makes the books good, but hey, nepotism strikes again.
No secret plan. They’ve destroyed his character. He’s impotent, has no insight into anything, and stands around being appalled.
Sounds like George RR martin
Eric Stevens lmao gottem
I know this is a year old, but I am just now watching the video. I wanted to say that technically that is his character in kings landing as well.
They destroyed the entire show
I so wish they had resolved the issue of Cersei's "pregnancy". When I saw that she must have been like 6 months along by this point in the show and still had a flat belly, I thought maybe she had been lying all along just to manipulate the men around her (Euron, Jaime, Tyrion). I was waiting for that confession or for the grand maester to mention that if she wants people to believe she is pregnant she should try looser clothes or to try to look bigger, lol.. Anything. But it seems like her another forgotten plot by the writers.
it's a deleted scene actually: “We shot a scene that never made it into season seven, which was where I lose the baby,” Headey said at a fan convention. “And it was a really kind of traumatic, great moment for Cersei that never made it in, and I kind of loved doing that because I thought it would have served her differently.”
@@ToxodosI mean at least it would’ve been something. Although that ruins the prophecy the witch told her.
Also her being pregnant was basically the only personality she had left. If she lost the baby she’d somehow be even less interesting than she already was. And on top of that she was already being as evil as possible so it’s not like she could have an “even evil-er” character arc
I believe Tyrion hasnt read a book in years. But he keeps drinking
Good point
@@derekwalter4238 :)
This might be a good explanation considering that a mind needs a book as much as a sword needs a whetstone
Good point his sword really isn't as sharp as it used to be
He hasn't drank since becoming Dany's hand. Think back
The showrunner forgot that it doesn't make a character smart just having other characters say that they're smart.
Just wait for the next episode, Tyrion was talking to Bran, Tyrion loves learning so he probably asked him a lot of things, he was also the only one at the fireplace who believed that they can win, so i think Tyrion has a plan
Oh my fucking god it was so cringe when Daenerys had to have Jorah say that. It was the WORST
@@arandomlanguagenerd1869 fair enough
@@arandomlanguagenerd1869 you are expecting too much from the show.
Lmao this comment is the utter truth!
Tyrion, by the end, was only as smart as the writers who decided to put catapults on the front line during the final battle at Winterfell.
The same reason Littlefinger stopped being clever. They ran out of writing to base him off of.
Lazy writing. That is the answer. Plot now drives characters, which is the issue.
@Eduard BlaBla ?
@Eduard BlaBla Jeez did he hurt your feelings? There's nothing whiny about stating the obvious truth
Greedy consuming. That's the answer. Write your own. Go ahead. It's got to be so easy, and this literal army of writers, directors, actors, set designers, special effects artists, etc are all just being lazy. Make your own. You'll show them!
Nah. It's decent. Just a lot of GoT fans got used to kingcourt's deceptions and talks. Recent season are about war. You cannot win war with talks and wittiness. GoT fans are starting to degarde into typical toxic fanbase that does not accept changes and new things.
@Eduard BlaBla huh?
He listened to Bran's journey to become the Three-Eyed Raven. He might end up doing something clever to help battle the Night King.
I found it really weird that he did not spend the entire night with Brann.
"Yeah, I got magic abilities and can access any time I history and learn of events.
I know x, y and z about you that I should not know"
But nah, Tyrion is not interested to hear more, he wants to hang out with the guys.
Although, I would assume he learnt something about Branns abilities, seeing as he believe they can survive this war. The rat thought he was joking, but there was something there
thats what i waa thinking. He got the ENTIRE book of history right there in Bran. ANd tyrion loves to learn so I can only imagine how much he soaked up.
And instead of bringing us back to THAT conversation which would have been great (but beyond show runner's abilities) they come back to Tyrion (the "long story" apparently took 5 minutes) and he's instead getting drunk with a bunch of guys. This is a different show - a poor show - since the return. It's some stupid National Lampoon comedy.
@@MikeTall88 Wow I never made the connection of him saying "maybe we can win" and spending time with bran earlier
CC 07 I was thinking this exactly!! He’s the only one that confidently said he thinks they’ll win, and I just put the two together
I appreciate your analysis, but the reality is that the quality of writing has simply dropped since they outpaced the books. They don't have enough talent or time to handle a character like him.
lol george is hardly a fucking genius himself.
@Robatic Trying to be a contrarian does not make you clever. Martin's strong point is character interaction and he chose Tyrion to be the underestimated badass at outwitting his foes. Martin gave every character their moment to shine. D&D are not capable of that and concentrate only on spectacle
@@Siamzero1994 Who said I was trying to be a contrarian? Dont assume how im trying to appear.
@@LordRobaZe I disagree. He successfully created one of the most beloved fantasy worlds, and has so far managed to execute the character of Tyrion, as well as several others in that same archetype-- Varys, Littlefinger, Olenna Tyrell.
I don't blame Siamzero for questioning your motives here, honestly. Unless you want to assert that none of these things are true.
@@steveripberger1802 Questioning my motives? Its a youtube comment haha. Yes my motives were devious I am the evil mastermind of the internet. Twas just an opinion and many others share it with me.
"Why has Tyrion stopped being clever?"
Since they ran out of the original book content.
First rule of writing fiction: You cannot write a character that is smarter than yourself. And the authors of the last season are not particularly stellar.
Oh the irony... You can absolutely write a character smarter than yourself, pretty easily in fact. You're the god of that fictional universe, if you can't comprehend how to manipulate that to your advantage, then maybe you shouldn't be commenting on other peoples intelligence.
Twixles but Observer29830 is right. It’s easy enough to just say they’re smart and have others call them smart, but to actually think up their plots and schemes and ideas, you’d need to have that capability yourself.
@@twixles6297 Hilarious. How would that even work? This character needs to come up with plans and schemes that you yourself can't come up with, because you're not as smart. You can have characters say "oh you're so smart", but that doesn't make smart at all. Observer29830 is spot on. The irony here is all yours.
@@jesperburns Man I swear some people are just straight up retarded in this comment section. If you are writing a character you can make them whatever you want them to be. Making a character in a book smart has nothing to do with the writers intelligence. Do I know how to command an army? No I don't, but I can write a character who can. By your logic GRRM should be the smartest man alive but he is not.
@Observer 29830 and @Beppe are both wrong. A lot was inspired by history, and a great many fictional characters are inspired by real people and the things they did. Correspondence with experts of their field is another easy way to write a character smarter than yourself doing things you yourself don't even understand.
Meta answer: George isn't writing him anymore.
Story answer: He is sober.
He was never sober
Simple answer: behause now, the generic Hollywood writers are writing his story and not GRRM
I'm 31 next month and I'll be really excited to see GRRM's take on the final seasons when I'm first in line for the new book releases as my 50th birthday present.
Because he can't be any more clever than the writers...
the way you write smart characters is pretty simple actually, since you, as the writer, already know the outcome and solution to any problem, you can give hindsight intuition before things happen.
@@loodiefish2424 There is a difference between being smart & being a 4th wall breaking character. Also if the writers aren't smart, the ''smart'' character can just state the obvious while every character acts surprised.
Also you can refrain from making a cock joke every episode. That would help his credibility.
For the same reason Little Finger stopped being clever, George R R Martin's material is no more.
Spree little finger died too easily. He was hyped up since season 1 and he was just killed like that.
thats what bad writing does
yup
@@TwoNutsAreBetterThanOne yeah the entire 7th season he didnt act abyrhing like little finger.
@@unscripted483 you mean the episodes thatHBO wrote and the book isn't still out yet. I was already disappointed before the start of that season because these greedy bastards we're in such a hurry to finish the show. Let GRRM finish his series. You will see how different things turn out.
To be fair, they're all acting out-of-character these days. It's the writing.
You can tell george r.r. martin is no longer involved in the show. Season 8 episode 3 & 4 showed no one knows military tactics
It's just bad writing. Tyrion's intelligence was never in deception, it was in outwitting his opponents. And it's not just his intelligence that has dropped off. His personality has practically vanished. The showrunners are using his mistakes to create tension, and that's a mistake.
Bramble451 exactly, back when the show was mirroring the books i cared for tyrion, however now i couldn’t care less if he died, the wit, the humour and personality has vanished. He has become bland beyond belief
I very much doubt that. I am sure there is a somthing going on behind the scenes with him, there are several scenes that are just cut before they finish with him. Which seems to imply that there is more going on.
Also some of his mistakes makes sense. He was never raised as a soldier or to lead armies. While he have read a lot of books on the matter, he lacks experience, in many ways he is just making stuff up as he goes, trying to use his wit to keep him afloat I think, but when that fails he is lost for what to do.
The show hasn't finished yet
Come on dude, bad fanfiction will always fuck up like this.
@Niranjan Rajesh then how do you explain theast 2 episodes?
The showrunners and Dinklage have devised an ingenious plan to score someone else an Emmy.
hahaha!! This is gold!
Huh.
Well played!
Haha was literally gonna comment. Feel like Headey and Nikolaj are in for it....
@@akhilaiyar4404 Samwell, Brianne or Jamie? Hell, I nominate all three!
@@prankishsquire2663 I loved Sam's interaction with Danaerys. The subtle change in his facial expressions when he learned his brother's been burnt alive as well. Amazing acting.
lol you give DnD too much credit my man...
It's obvious: he stopped drinking. Not nearly as witty now.
The.National.Blade Alcoholism has had the opposite effect I’m afraid. 😂
He hasn’t stopped drinking
@Cegesh I wish. Ted Bundy though, that guy was an incel. LMFAO
You might be into something. Delirium tremens is a real thing.
Jon:, If everyone lies it just creates problems.
Tyrion: Well yes but actually no
Ex: The lie that kept Aegon alive
How about the lie about joining the wildlings that saved the wall?
Poor Peter Dinklage. He went from being the star of the show to being second fiddle ever since he became part of Dany's storyline. Sad, that.
muckymucks couldn’t agree more!!
Yeah, he went from being the best part of the show to a dude in the throne room.
I hope beyond hope that he gets redemption somewhere in the final three episodes!
That seems to be the case for every character now
The problem is people are overthinking GoT. Do you think the writers have such smart ideas? No they don't. Proof see episode s8/e3.
It's the first video I've seen from this channel, but I can immediately he's reaching big time.
The post-book writing in this show has never been clever to this point, it's out of place to believe anything this clever is coming.
So what blockbuster series have you wrote?
I saw the latest episode and Tyrion has done the same shit again, pleading for Dany to not attack Cersei. Ever since he joined Dany and his advice to her, since the time in Mereen, has shown how much of a bungling idiot he has become. I would not doubt if the 2nd last episode he still pleads for Dany to not fight and he betrays her.
That's the problem. GoT is supposed to be a story with actual complexity cuz that's what GRRM envisioned. You can't just casually ignore this issue when you've invested in the complexity of GRRM's story and expect quality but you're right... D and D aren't that smart but we expect a bare minimum of common sense.
@@jamestate770 I am certain fame has nothing to do with common sense.
All of Tyrion's ideas work in Cersi's benefit rather than Dani's
he is plotting a plan B. that's why i don't like him once he came to westeros. that scene where he talked about heirs and danny called him out...it was obvious.
No it wasn't. He wanted Cersei to live that much is certain, but he did not want Cersei on the iron throne. He was also wary of anything happening to Jaime, but that reason is pretty self explanatory.
I'm disappointed in Varys as much as Tyrion, if only the show runners were as clever as the author. God knows how good the series finale would be.
Gotta wait for the books, and I really hope this season doesn't influence G.R.R.Martin's original plot.
No he has already implied the show is just fan fiction he get paid for
Is the book still coming this current year?
Varys has begun to be the shadow of himself. He just had 2 lines in 2 episodes this season.
Unbelievable.
@@utubeleplague The book has never been 'coming this year' if you're capable of learning. The book will just be here when it is. Expecting or hoping for it by any certain time is an excercise in futility
@JoeRingo118 it's really annoying... it was intended to be an adaptation.
Tyrion is GRRM's spirit animal. In the early seasons, Tyrion was like GRRM's perspective Westeros
I always saw Sam this way.
@@gregkelton81 both of them actually
George said Sam was actually the character he relates to.
@@harrywinter7769 probably becouse theyre both incredibly fat
Sam is GRRM’s emotional/dreamer side, his “inner child” so to speak, full of wonder and curiosity. The nerdy reader with a love for magic and heroes.
Tyrion is GRRM’s mindful/cynical side. He’s many of the failures that George can somewhat relate with in his own life manifested into a fictional character, but one that says all the witty/snappy things he wishes he could have said in those moments.
I love how all the GoT youtubers were trying to be positive about the show for their channel when deep down they knew the writing was awful.
It wasn't just them. A lot of us were in denial even throughout Season 8. I remember watching the finale and after it was done that's when it hit me just how awful things had ended. Fast forward to now, I haven't watched GoT since the show ended, but watching the premiere of HotD drove home even further just how bad the state of GoT's writing was by the end. Like I've been watching Season 8 dialogue clips and contrasting them to HotD dialogue clips and it's absurd just how much better the latter is.
@@unc54I tried saying Daenerys’s twist was foreshadowed until eventually realising that foreshadowing isn’t character development
Yeah, well that's your opinion.
Me personally, I thought the entire series was fantastic
I never read any of the books.
Interesting though I have an alternative theory, the show failed miserably at showing it but I think Tyrion with time felt slightly guilty of having killed Tywin. A couple of times he either said it or we can see that he feels guilty. We never saw him finding out Myrcella had being killed - that surely must have hurt deep for him since he was the one who sent her there -. Then with Tommen's death, I suspect he started feeling bad for Cersei and for Jaime: they both had lost all their children and their father, and on top of that there he was, assisting the one person who wanted to destroy them. Tyrion is clever but he is also a good person. My guess is that it is not that he stopped being clever but he was conflicted, split in two in a situation where regardless of the outcome, he had something to lose. He had pledged himself to Dany and he wanted to do that, but then that meant he also had to destroy his family - and he did love Jaime -. This is why - when Jon showed up with an alternative route - he wanted Dany to support Jon: that was an enterprise he could back without any personal conflict. He sought an alliance with Cersei because that was a way out, a way to avoid being "the monster" he thought everyone believed he was. It was love in the end... love is the end of duty.
The series skipped ahead of the books. apparently authors are more creative than tv producers. who knew?
lmao!!!!
@Yaya Boom and he stop for those exact reasons
You know Martin spent a large part of his career writing scripts, right? Authors move between print and film and don't get smarter when writing dialogue, or novels, and if we counted on his books to inform the show there would be a 10 year hiatus.
Show writers don't have the same amount of time an author does. It's usually less than a years time they have for writing.
@@sub7se7en thank goodness, can you imagine 3x60 minute episodes of Brienne and Pod riding horses and eating beans? Or a show announcing new season starts April 2019 and actually airing November 2025?
They've all become inextricably Emo and morngy... honestly, even the poisonous butterfly that used to be Varys has lost all his colour.
Louise Bentley The characters used to be cool, now they’ve all become boring predictable one-dimensional fools.
Tyrion, Baelish, and Varys were all completely nerfed. I mean the one thing Varys has done so far in the last two seasons is say that Jon and Dany should be married. And even that required Davos and Tyrion to help him get there
Guys come on, they needed to make room for the Dany and Jon romance, and they can't have any of the men being more intelligent or capable than Sansa or Dany or even that tiny girl Lyanna Mormont who grown and battle-hardened men seem to fear for some reason. In all seriousness, Varys and Tyrion are so uninteresting and boring. A few seasons ago Varys just decided to stop scheming even though his character is (was) a schemer to the core, and one of the most interesting characters in the whole series. Everyone is just bleh now. There's not much excitement for me anymore. Just waiting for it to be over with I guess.
@@dangerdan2592 EXACTLY!!! I'm only watching it now just to see how they mess up the ending honestly.
Lol this season seems like a WOKE advertising 😂 no men is plotting anything, every intense conversation is happening between women.
Like Sansa fighting for North, lady Brianne standing up for Jamie, Arya fucking that Baratheon kid, that little lady going to fight.
The other male roles which were quite experts in scheming are all just random faces here and there.
Since they are at it, probably make the dickless ironborn a transgender too 😂😂
After all the dust have settled, it's pretty much obvious what's happened.
From character-driven writing of GRRM the show shifted to story-driven, the main goal of the writing became not to let the characters live their lives and to their things according to their personalities but to walk characters through points A, B and C in the story.
That's why Danny KINDA FORGOTS about the opposing fleet and losts the second dragon, for example. That's why massive armies telepors through Westeros here and there, that's why Daenerys went from the Breaker of Chains to genocidal murdered.
Could things like this have happened in a good story? Possibly.
Was the story written good in this case? Absolutely not.
And the story went from a complex reconciliation between the polar opposites of nature (ice and fire, old and young, vindictive and forgiving, hate and love) to another cliché final struggle between the good ones and the bad ones. Lame.
The problem is GRRM hadn’t finished writing the story and HBO had a schedule to meet end of story; so quality suffered as a result of imposed quantity!
This probably wouldn’t have happened in the UK, they take 2 and 3 years sometimes between series... the sad thing is US film makers overlooked or didn’t have faith in its fans that we would wait that long, and ironically we did wait 2 years, and they still f’d it up!!!!
Anonymous Poster The series was filmed in Northern Ireland and various foreign locations. Other than the scene with Brienne, Jamie and the bear (the bear could not travel outside of the U.S.), I do not believe that anything else was filmed here. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss are American, but they went to University in Ireland. The nineteen month wait was due to extensive post production work. Yes, the problem was Mr. Martin's lethargy and indifference. Ironically, he found the energy to cash his paychecks and go to award shows.
I think his brain never recovered from the long drunk journey in a barrel tossing on a ship exiting King's Landing. Too many drunken bumps on the noggin killed all the cells.
Tyrion's character has been a victim of the dumbing down of the show, which has basically become a blockbuster. Two of Tyrion's biggest weapons were logic and clever dialogue, both of which no longer exist in the show. Why try to write intelligent dialogue, when it is much easier, much safer and much more popular to throw one-liners and dick/sex jokes in between CGI fuckfests and stunning visuals. Last season IMHO the only clever, rational and impactful dialogue we got was Cersei's, yet the season was the most popular and one of the top-rated ones. Just see which characters are the most popular (hint: it's not Littlefinger, Varys or Cersei, it's Ghost, Tormund e.t.c.)
"CGI fuckfests" LMFAO
the show has gotten more kiddy freindly because it became more lord of the rings in its style because of the winter is coming crap, although that stuff was always what the show was going towards from the begining. Also you know its dumbed down when even seseme street ( yes, seseme street ) mention it
Fucking Bronn is a perfect example of a character you are describing. Sure, he was good for a one liner or two when it was Important to the plot. But he is now somehow super popular. The producers just like to beat a once humorous thing until it’s awful and now we are stuck with his no longer funny or witty schtick for season after season
It's full of unnecessary, out-of-tone comic relief moments too. You have two of the most witty and intelligent characters in the show, and all they use them for are Eunuch jokes and one crying "we old, they no listen". Fuck you, you have an impressive network of spies wherever you go and somehow always manage to know what's going one, and yet you couldn't even figure out that they are banging each other already?
Every episode has - of course - to contain its mandatory Thormund joke about the giant lady. Everywhere he is appears "is da giant ledi there?" Yeah, we get it, he has a stiffy for her, it's not funny any more, write new jokes. Thormund is continuously used for comic relief in other moments as well. Not the good kind, the I'm-tone-deaf kind. The "I've always had blue eyes" kind. What kind of moment was that? Edmund's reaction was so dumb, the whole thing was so cringeworthy. Just so that they could have another funny moment somewhere in there.
Next point: we get it, Bron pulls. For fuck's sake, we only have 6 episodes left, stop wasting that time with dumb shit.
Also, interesting moments are constantly interrupted. Dany threatening Sansa when talking to Jon... oh wait, the dragons aren't eating. Let's have a ride that ends in, you guessed it, a cringeworthy comic relief moment with Jon looking at the dragon while kissing Dany. Sansa is pushing Dany on what will happen to the North after everything... too much tension, let's just cut it and get to another dramatic reunion (not that I don't like dramatic reunions, but we don't need one every ten minutes, especially not timed like that). Usually a dialogue like that would go on, and peak in some incredible, memorable lines. Now it seems they're scared of exploring that tension.
Don't get me wrong, I still like the show. And I think comic relief moments are part of it, but they have to be in tone with the show, they have to be well-placed, and they can't overpower the tension of the show. Tyrion's line about denying Lord Janos' honor was funny, because Tyrion was funny. He was savage, it was the character's trait. And the line gave a nice closure to the events that led to Janos being sent to the wall. Tyrion and Bron reacting to Podrick not having to pay the prostitutes was enjoyable, because it felt like a genuinely amusing moment in a non-threatening situation between a group of people that have grown to like each other more and more. There was a lot in that short moment, and it was an amusing moment for them as well. Thormund screaming that he always has had blue eyes is just bad for a show like this, it's the kind of joke that works in a sitcom.
Joel Costa I totally agree. I think it’s kind of a double edged sword. To get to the end we need this sort of blockbuster style setting , but the problem is it demeanors everything else we used to love about the show. We traded it for dragons and bigger battle scenes and shorter seasons to make up for the budget.
Unfortunately I’m sure if the writes and producers got everything they wanted we would have full seasons with all the usual character dialogue. But budgets and time constraints probably play a lot into it. We waited like 16 months just for this season.
It’s probably because the show has passed the books and the writers aren’t anywhere close to Martin’s capabilities. That would also explain why the only major deaths are saved for season finales and can be seen from a mile away.
They wanted him to stop being the main character of the show.
Simply the reason is a character is only as smart as the writer writing them.
Well said. This is universaly true, whether one likes the writing on the show or not.
@@rickhoppelcad Why thank you.
I'm just wondering, how many people will write basically this exact same comment.
@@pdoglarsen This is the 6th or 7th I've seen so far. lol
This is not true though.
I think it’s the same as in case of Little Finger: writers don’t know how to develop these characters without RR Martin’s help.
Kh rod he is the smartest character, as we maybe Will see
Floris Van der hart do u still think he is smart?
Erick C yep, nice theory)))).....
"[D&D] must be building up to something." Yeaaaaahhh no. You expect too much from the showrunners.
You're giving them too much credit. The truth is, those show runners don't know how to write a smart character.
"A mind needs a book like a sword needs a whetstone" - Season 1 Tyrion
Before the Battle of Blackwater he was reading a history of Westerosi Sieges. He hasn't been near a book since. Sam and Bran need to get him up to speed
He spent several hours talking to Bran in the previous episode, and said that he thinks he can win during the Brienne knighting scene.
He’s worked something out.
Tyrion took over Sir Barristan Selmy's story arc and personality in the show after Barristan died. Tyrion went from witty and charming to stoic, somber, and melancholy. He's afraid of Danny turning into the Mad Queen, which would have been Barristan's motivation, and wants to save his brother Jamie. He knew Cersei would never come North but Jamie would, which was his goal, to separate Jamie from Cersei.
I like this, Tyrion's way to save Jaime from Cersei
Holy shit if this happens it would be so awesome and would explain some of his dumb decisions in the show
Great observation!!!
Really a shame how they did Barristan, combining their character arcs makes rather a fair bit of sense considering the other decisions they've made, they've done that with many characters.
Highly doubt it, my guess is bad writing
It’s adorable that you thought the show runners had a real, clever plan for Tyrion becoming an idiot (Little Finger too). I remember hoping that were the case back then too but in retrospect, it was our hope that made us blind to the complete lack of interest or care the show runners had for a good story.
I'm back for my annual visit to this video, to chuckle at the title with amusement.
D&D just don't know how to write smart characters? Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger...
but i'm stupid and i can write good put-downs, i just need a few days instead of a few seconds, that's why i'm stupid not smart. It's just weird
They had so hard a time writing little finger that they just killed him off.
That's all on George R.R. Martin. Tyrion was great in the first couple of seasons, but beyond that none of them can compare to their book counterparts. One example of this is Varys and Illyrio's support of Viserys, especially considering Varys' idealism in the show. It really makes no sense! Well, unless you factor in Young Griff, a.k.a. Aegon Targaryen. Then it all starts to make sense. Robert dies. The lords of Westeros are at each others' throats. In comes Viserys at the head of a Dothraki army. Then Aegon arrives with the Golden Company and restores order. He gets hailed a hero and a savior, and is crowned as King Aegon VI. Whether or not he is the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar, doesn't matter at this point.
So true. All they know how to write are dumb heroic men, and clever, annoying women. Hollywood has become the feminist ball crusher, so no men are allowed to be clever anymore on TV.
@@vheataylorsyorkies7215 Meh, not even the women are clever. They just have other characters go on and on about how clever they are so that the audience buys it.
I feel it’s because the writers don’t want to undermine Dany’s ark by writing another strong character in her plot... i don’t feel there is a secret plot, just incompetence on the part of the show writers.
I’ve watched the last episode of GoT, the jokes Tyrion made on Varys were so out of character... especially if you know his full background. Such a shame
The jokes weren't out of character. He always made crude jokes at Varys' expense.
At everyone's expense.
jokes in general have become annoying, who the hell starts the last season with a joke about balls?
And they haven't stop since george books ended, I can't forget the mayor cringe I had when they joked about Ned's dead and the red wedding when Jon went to meet Danny.
Varys is the one that was offended , which made him out of his character
María Txc Don’t forget last season, when Jaime and Bronn kept acting surprised and sniggering at Lord “Dickon” 🙄
Lmaooooo @ the opening question 🤣🤣🤣 immediately subscribed. Robert, ur funny as hell
And as we all now know ...blaming the writers was the exact right thing to do!!
Each book took GRRM years to write and refine.
D&D try to write Tyrion scenes in a weekend.
That's all there is to it.
It doesn't cost GRRM anything to write while the turning the gears for making the show costs millions. It is not the hunger for money of the showrunners but the restriction of the medium.
The first 3 books were written in the span of 4 years. You're giving him far too much credit, and the fact that he took 5 years to come out with book 4, and then another 7 years to come out with book 5 is a reflection of the fact that he had no idea where all of this was actually going, not because he was trying to 'take care'.
Yeah, think of how many times GRRM must've written a script and then later decided, this doesn't work. Let me scrub it and write it again.
The show writers have their backs up against the wall to do everything in one year, possible much, much earlier than that, because they have to film the writing, and the show writers need to give the producers a rough plotline before they even finish writing so they can decide which actors to book for how long, and plan the filiming of it.
Lodatz George already has an ending but it’s the journey that keeps him so long in reaching it. Add to that the new characters and plots and twists and turns he introduced in the most recent book. Here’s an excerpt of an interview of his:
Interviewer: Do you know, then, how will you end up the story?
GRRM: Yes. For me, writing a book is like a long journey, and like any trip, I know the point where I start the journey and the point I wanna get to. I also know a little bit of the route, such as the main cities in which I wanna stop by, and even a few monuments I would like to visit. What I do not know is where I will eat the first night or which songs will be on the radio. I discover all that details while I am writing the book and that’s the reason why I go so slowly: because sometimes I have to go back to change certain things.
Take the last sentence as a clue to one of the things that’s taking him so long to finish the saga.
@@martheresa7550
*"George already has an ending but it’s the journey that keeps him so long in reaching it."*
Right, because he didn't really know where it was going. He had a vague idea about a war between the Night King and the human world, and then got bogged down in how to get there.
*"because sometimes I have to go back to change certain things."*
Right, because he didn't bother to flesh the world out, or plan his story, and instead cranked out 3 novels in 4 years filled with rape and gory murder.
*"Take the last sentence as a clue to one of the things that’s taking him so long to finish the saga."*
Which merely confirms what I said in the first place.
*Ollena Tyrell:* He's a smart man, your hand. I've met a great lot of clever men and I outlived them all. You want to know how? I ignored them.
*FORESHADOWING INTENSIFIES*
Soviet Union ollena was a treasure I wish she adopted me
@@possiblymaybe6711 xD I wish the taught me on the badass way!
Okenna Tyrell was such a savage in how sge just gave NO f***s , she never minced words, just SAID what was on her mind ! Ive got much respect for character for sure !!!.Its a shame she had to die though
gets killed by magic teleporting army*
Dany should have listened to Olenna Tyrell and attack Kings Landing hard in S7 the city would fall in a day.
You might be just another video about Game of Thrones but you're arguments are interesting and valid, I want more. New sub here enough you still up here
Excellent breakdown. Convinced me
Because the source material has expired and he is now being scripted by TV buffoons .
You are 100% correct
It's sad and you can def tell the difference
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Tyrion's transformation comes right after his exile to Essos. At that moment he had been on trial for a crime he didn't commit, he was betrayed by the woman he loved, he was sentenced to die, then he killed his lover and then his father.
The guy was through a lot and after all that he's never been the same again. I would say a part of him died when he became a cold murderer and he doesn't care much for his own life anymore. The only reason why he's still involved is because Varys and Jorah literally dragged his ass to Daenerys otherwise he would still be drinking to an early grave in Pentos.
Also, I believe he has a genuine inner conflict. He likes Daenerys but she is not related to him in any way while the Lannisters are still his family. He's been playing soft ball because he doesn't want his family slaughtered. So, yeah, he has lost his mojo and at this point I think he's ready to die doing whatever he thinks is right for the greater good, which doesn't involve neither Cersei nor Daenerys.
And that's where the books and show diverge.
Coincidence?
@@davidwilson6577 I think not.
Brilliantly well put
Dunno about that last bit, but otherwise this is what I've been saying as well. People keep talking about shit writing, not allowing a character to develop from such trauma would be truly shitty writing. I'd say it was completely confirmed when he chats with Jaime in 8-2
I am so glad that Olenna didn't make it to become like him.
I love your style of narration, coupled with your accent :)
of course this is the fault of the showrunners. he has been poorly written from season 5 onwards. that's not a "build up to some shock twist". that is simply bad writing.
^This.
Tyrion's trial was the last great piece of dialogue they wrote for him, it also helped that Peter's acting was on point.
His character still was consistent in season 5 tho.
No, it's Martin's fault. He had more than enough time to finish the books before the show passed him by.
@@SpottedSharks and thank god he didnt rush it. As long as he finishes all of them idc if we get them tommorow or in 10 years.
@Bobbi Cat
you personally need to make millions before you form an opinion? i feel sorry for you
Not to mention, Cersei’s false promise also tore Jaime away from her. Having Jaime against her is an important piece to dethroning Cersei.
Jaime & The Hound vs. Cersei & The Mountain, sibling vs. sibling
I come from the future - it turns out none of it meant anything.
How is every comment on this video exactly the same?
Because everyone knows whats going on with this show
It’s a TH-cam comments echo chamber.
Reddit is even worse.
Very few people seem to unplug and think for themselves.
Repeating what everyone else is saying is easier. No real thought is required.
🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑
Seriously, I just scrolled down and at least 19 out of 20 comments are all saying the exact same thing, as if it weren't the very first possibility brought up in the video.
The irony is that each and every one of them thinks they've come up with some clever and original thought, and yet none of them actually addresses the case being made; that this is all a very deliberate and dangerous chess game Tyrion is playing. "No! Writer stupud, me smarter than them!! Stupud show!"
So you've got a bunch of NPCs who likely have never come up with an original idea in their lives, accusing an incredibly competent and successful team of writers - who work tirelessly on the most successful TV show in the world, with deadlines and restrictions they must be met - of being bad writers.
Has the writing diminished? Yes, of course it has. But I don't think most people can even comprehend the challenge of writing this show. Trying to put all the pieces together from what came before, without even knowing what the *genius* who came up with it all actually had planned; getting it all done in a certain amount of time; and having to work with the constraints of the medium and a budget! Yes, they have a huge budget, but it's not unlimited, whereas the show is extremely expensive to produce.
So think: time, quality, under budget. Well they dont have time and it sure as hell ain't cheap, so what in the hell does anyone want from these people? Considering the constraints, the writing and final plot decisions they are making deserve a lot more appreciation than they're getting.
Even if its time, I hardly doubt their budget is low, its Game Of Thrones, the most anticipated show on Earth.
They should be able to reel in any writer they want, there are good writers in Hollywood.
Also Season 8 Episode 3 proves these people right. The way the Ice King dies, how and by who and how its executed and how Theon dies is just sad, and i dont mean that in an emotional way.
Why didnt Arya take the face of one of the Ice Generals, and then lunged at him. Why did Melisandre just randomly walk out and take off the amulet n die? It left more people confused than satisfied.
Where is the epic battle between Jon and the Ice King?
Especially the Arya point shows bad writing and bad execution, thats hardly a time or budget constraint.
At the end of the day, the writing is bad, has been politicized and the show has become disappointing.
Also, 2 years for the final season, not 1. The 7th season was better than this one so far.
Geniuses share same thoughts
When I go back and rewatch GoT I’m gonna pretend the series ended after season 4 and the ending was completely left up to interpretation.
Because it's hard to write a character that is smarter then you.
And D&D are not smart, therefore Tyrion is not smart...
than
When accusing people of not being smart, it's a good idea to use good grammar.
@@judewakefield7213There's men with an IQ of 168 who aren't native to the English language. Doesn't say a damn thing. I guess you weren't ''smart'' enough to think of that little fact...
@@TheStraightestWhitest Accusing people of being dumb in a language you haven't mastered isn't wise.
@@judewakefield7213 your opinion of what is wise or not won't stop them
Tyrion's secret plan is to act dumb so that Sansa seems smart. Sorry, that was the writers/show runners who decided that.
yeah they need make all idiots to make Sansa seems Smart, like little finger.
@TheRealist 811 Another comment said they turned the show into war of the five feminists so basically
@@mlg_teletubby9391 Like...what?
I am so looking forward to reading all of your books.
Oh, SO glad I found your channel today. New subscriber here. 👣🎶👍. Love the way you think around the corners. I am definitely upset with the dimming of Tyrion's bright light and wit. He is, by NO means a dimwit and the character is not being utilized. Sad. Looking forward to your videos. Appreciate your time and effort and sharing your thoughts and videos and information with us ALL. Ty. 🌌🏞🌠. HUGS and blessings from NY State
Because the writers want other characters to be smart by sacrificing Tyrion in the process
Sansa being the first hotel
Its not working. They're all stupid now.
You can learn from life experiences, but that doesn't make you clever. That's something you're born with. So can we stop pretending Sansa's surpassed Tyrion as the smartest person in Westeros?
@@jenniferconstantine9041 Sansa is an absolute moron who has her head so far up her own ass that she would Jon die for a little more power
@@jenniferconstantine9041 No one here ever said that sansa was smarter than anyone as I'm concerned I was actually expressing my frustration at the show trying to make it look that way. For me sansa is an overrated character who just got every single accomplishment she claims either through bad writting or by having other characters act like complete morons
Excellent character breakdown. I believe your explanation of Tyrion manipulating Daeny’s army to go North makes perfect sense with the talk of Tyrion’s alleged betrayal.
👏👌
I think you're giving the writers WAY too much credit here. They just didn't know how to finish the show.
“As tempting as it is to blame the writers…”
I blame the writers.
This explanation almost makes the writing seem smart.
eh, the plot direction of the character arcs is solid, but then at least some of those are founded in GRR's notes, if not always for the characters that had those arcs in the books , the presentation seems lacking in the minutia
Occams razor: Writing has switched from George Martin to the TV Producers.
problem is, even in the books, he hasnt really done much since the battle at the end of the second book.
Marcos Danilo There is an internal consistency in the books that is just not there in the show. In the books, Tyrion is increasingly troubled but the reader knows that and sees that he isn’t an infallible genius. On the show, the bad writing (which seemed to have as its goal to create a fake parity between cersei’s forces and Dany’s) caused a bunch of dumb decisions (like going to Casterly Rock) while at the same time we have a bunch of exposition declaring “Tyrion is so smart”. So now people are scrambling to justify the inconsistencies.
Tube Watcher The show is so silly. Cersei held King’s landing and Casterly Rock, the river lands were still being sieged. The country was devastated after the war. The North was independent, the Lannister army, the Baratheon army and the Tully army had suffered heavy losses. The Vale, Dorn and High Garden were the only forces that mattered in the seven kingdoms and Danny had an alliance with two of them. Land your boats in Dorne and MARCH UP with dragons in tow. No one separates, the entire army marches up with Dorne and High Garden holding the supply lines. Dragons give you air superiority, just fly bye burn anyone on the battlements and storm any castle you want.
It’s silly because you don’t need to be smart to win that war. It’s like you have a 40k stack in ck2 and your enemy only has 20k and a worse economy and no levies in most provinces. Yet Danny decided to split the troops into small stacks, let die people responsible for alliances by letting them split for no reason, decided to land in the least important land ever... YOU NEED HIGH GARDEN AND DORNISH TROOPS, LAND THERE, NOT IN EMPTY BARATHEON STORMLANDS. Heck, if you just stop trade between high garden and king’s landing AND you blockade sea trade AND you give littlefinger a better price on food from the vale... That couldn’t last more than ten years. It would be better story telling if Tyrion suggested this plan and Danny refused to wait and then he suggested landing in High Garden or Dorn and she insisted on landing on her home, and then he had to come up with the silly plan. At least then it would be on the brash Targaryen ruler, not on the supposedly smart hand of the queen.
Rui Lourenço Yes, it’s incredibly silly and so poorly done. But of course, it was necessary that all these dumb troop maneuvers happen because the writers had written themselves into a corner and needed to spin their wheels in place for all of Season 7. There is just no reason for all of these terrible decisions to have been made except that D&D needed to write to achieve a plot objective of having Dany and Cersei on equal footing so they could have the fiction of Cersei and Dany dueling for power. Without parity between Cersei and Dany, there would be no justification for that dumb wight capture expedition (whose sole stated purpose was to convince Cersei to join forces with Dany). But D&D messed up because a story had already been written through Season 6 that had Dany acquiring a massive army with both the Dothraki and Unsullied, while Cersei only really had the Lannister forces. So D&D needed to basically undo a lot of Dany’s success in order to get to where they wanted: parity with Cersei.
Why did they write it this way and end up in a dead end story they were forced to wheel spin?🤷🏼♀️ It could be as simple a reason as they wanted to stretch out the show to make more money. But, in my opinion, that would have required this to be intentional and planned and I really don’t believe that. I think it’s more likely that they ended up in a corner because D&D refused to kill off Cersei when she was supposed to be killed off because they are just so enamored with Lena Headey, the actress. (I mean, Lena *is* great.) I think Cersei’s storyline has been stretched and padded way beyond what GRRM intends for her or is logical for what her character should be. And by keeping Cersei around, they needed an important role for her in the story so they just made up the bad one we’ve gotten so far in the past few seasons.
George never wrote most of episodes. He only did one a season so what u said is wrong
Congrats on the first 1 MM view video and (nearly) 100 k. Subs!
FINALLY! Someone who gets it! Thank you.
Tyrion hasn’t been with the ladies lately and it’s clouding his judgement!!
Alex Cornell simple enough right? Get T some P!!!!!
😂😂😂😂😂
But, according to Seinfeld, he should be getting smarter lol
You think dipping his wick will cure what ails him?
Because he has balls and Varys doesn't..
Honestly, because all people got stupid but Sansa and somehow Cersei.
Lol right
@EmtronVenger Don't feel it like feminist agenda, Cersei was made main villain ( she has no purpose otherwise) with the WW, so ofc she has to be competent and Sansa was groomed as new LF, so ofc she has to be Smart too, the thing is they can't do that without making others dumb.
Tyrion became dumb long ago.
fran dre and they're possibly making Daenerys an antagonist too. They also make Sansa seem bitter in order to make her protective and intelligent. I don't think it's a feminist agenda at all.
@@KHH595 Thats where you're wrong... Thats completely 3rd wave feminist agenda... The bad thing is, 3rd wave feminists don't understand that being bitter is against being protective and intelligent... It's actually the opposite... So, EmtronVenger is actually correct...
@@KHH595 I don't think that either.
I appreciate the optimism you always have 😅
Another GREAT video. 💕
I applaud you as this analysis has been the best I have listened to and viewed on TH-cam.
As much as people insist that it is down to the showrunners I think that it would be impossible for the show to progress without Tyrion making mistakes. If he devised the perfect plan to beat Cersei and the Night King then the show would be over in 2 episodes.
The idea to take over Casterly Rock was a great idea, he just didn't know that the gold had ran out. His reasoning for not using the dragons made absolute sense as well. They are the Westeros equivalent of nukes.
Tyrion is intelligent but he isn't omniscient. He makes mistakes just like anybody else. He comes up with good plans but sometimes they don't work anyway. Thinking back to the early seasons. He could have easily lost his trial by combat at the Eyrie. It was pure luck that Bronn stepped in to fight for him.
You make the first point as if they writers had no choice. They created that scenario. They can change it.
Believe it or not but Bronn was not just luck. He was there at the Inn when tyrion got captured, tyrion flaunted his wealth in front of Bronn on the way to the Eryie in hopes of gaining his allegiance because Bronn is a sellsword. The show isn't that dynamic anymore, it's not the fact that Tyrion makes mistakes. It's the fact that his writing seems out of character.
Im reading book two now. Bronn was not just luck, tyrion knew he was his only chance and put himself in a place where he thought Bronn would stand up for him. It could have failed but it was a clever plan not just luck.
He should have known about the gold. He was master of coins after all. IT's all stupid beyond the point
@@millionsid The finances of the Westerlands and the finances of the Iron Throne have absolutely no relation to each other, Casterly Rock would have had its own steward managing the finances there and the only people who would know about the mines bleeding dry would be Tywin or those that he chose to inform.
Listening to this was sad. A highly-intelligent and extremely well-informed person using these very same strengths to grope for hope in a storyline that had become a steaming pile of s**t.
Looking back robert, what are your musings on the credit you gave Tyrion? Did you have any inclination that the writers would fail in the ways they have? Love the channel. Keep it up 👍
Because D&D can't write him or Varys.
Or Littlefinger
Littlefinger is fucking dead and Varys has had 1 line in the first 2 episodes of S8. What a shit showz
Or Littlefinger for that matter.
@@dotamagiblade totally agree... it's a shame really
Because the writers are making characters out of character for a cliche plot, like how they're building shit up just for a 1 min scene/dialogue
"I drink, and I know things"
When was the last time we saw him drink?
I enjoyed this. Thank you.
I asked myself this for 2+ years 😆 thank you! 💗
I could quite literally listen to your voice for hours!!
Given Tyrion's falling track record, I think perhaps he was never clever but rather well informed. Made sense that he could make good decisions in the world he grew up in. As he ventures into unfamiliar territory, his knowledge of clever men past becomes less applicable
I love your channel and your explanations in both this and lord of the rings..
I found the dragons and the dire wolves fascinating characters in the series.. will you be doing anything on the dragons and the dire wolves..