In the Japanese lines, Athena does mention that she had found a rather tattered soul that the memories would help patch up into something useful. This ended up being Themis. This implies that this Themis was actually Elidibus, after he died sending us to Elpis. This also implies that Hyedaelyn brought Elidibus's soul to the Source. That's why Themis remembers the fight in the Crystal Tower. It actually was him.
I’m just glad we got to part ways with Themis as friends. But not before we got to face Elidibus proper. We finally got to face the Ascian in white, not as a primal, or ardbert, or Zenos. Just as he was. And what a battle it was
Closed Loop time travel stories are pretty much the only way to do it without major plot holes, even if it makes far less sense to our usual understanding of linear time. I can't honestly claim to understand it all, but I think they did the best they could.
It's also good for protecting the integrity of the main plot without ruining it for people who do not do the raids. You can pretty much skip raids without realising the world almost got destroyed before you head into the next xpac
Closed Loop Hole stories can still have plot holes, though. You can say EW/Elpis is us entering a closed loop. But there's an issue with this plot, which is the existence of the parallel dimension from which the Exarch comes. If there is a timeline in which we die, then to me this means there is no loop - we just are in the "correct" timeline. But there must be a timeline in which the decisions of Venat are different, one in which the Ascians win, one in which Etheyris is never sundered, etc.
Just want to say I love your channel. Not just this video but all of them. This is a huge game and some of your videos really help with rehashing old content so I can be more invested. Please keep it up. Will make sure to like/comment on all your videos from here on!
really appreciate your videos! been listening to your raid recap videos this week. its nice to go through some of the side stories again that we dont get to spend as much time with as the msq.
The time travel makes perfect sense to me. From a 4th dimension perspective time is a single point with every event in history. Spreading that out into the third dimension technically doesn’t change the fact that everything has already occurred from the beginning of time to the end of time and thus we have already made every decision that we will ever make. Avengers Endgame did a good job with the physics of time travel. Ok that not I have subscribed. Can’t wait to play this game on the Xbox
A note on the spelling of Phoinix. It's not misspelt, it's just how it's spelt in Greek if it were to be written with the latin Alphabet,following the trend of things that have anything to do with the ancients being named in Greek (Ericthonios, Athena .. everything really).
Please do other raids! I got friends that skipped a lot cause they are baby brain and someone like you is the only hope they have! Also, your way of telling the story is superb, really gives "homie" vibes.
I've covered all of the raids now. You can find them all on this playlist. The Complete Story (FFXIV Lore): th-cam.com/play/PLthFUv-zRWno8hSmAemExPShjPCrFQT9n.html
wait wait wait wait Azem: "fear not for a star will come and help" does that mean Azem knows about us? would that mean that this pretty much happens after the first trip hence Azem learns of us n is like "oh cool, another me to help around, finally"
At the very least, azem knows about us because venat told them about working with us in elpis, the question is how much does azem know about us being another version of them, and how did azem know that we would be coming back to deal with pandæmonium? I feel like it's implied that azem has some sort of future sight/gift of prophecy. Which now that I think of it, also makes a lot of sense considering I believe it is stated that the summoning spell we have from azem's crystal was specifically made to summon "heroes from different ages" which would imply that azem had some form of time magics.
@@althelor Azem has to have future sight. It's the only way to explain them telling Themis where to stand so we'd land on them. Yes, our unsundered soul uses their immense power to pull pranks...An alternate theory is that Azem doesn't have future sight, but is the player character who collects all their shards and goes back in time to become Azem and so we're just remembering our past, it's not that Azem sees the future, which would make the entire game one endless time loop.
thank you SO much for making this!! i ran through this entire raid series with a friend and we were so excited for the fights that we just skipped all the cutscenes and story 😅
he sent you back to meet him so he would know he had to send you back to meet him and...oh dear I've gone cross-eyed. Honestly trying to keep all of the major story events in 14 in order is a headache and a half, and my ability to remember certain character names from one expansion to the next is spotty at best (outside of the Scions and some of the Ascians). I remember one guy who died in HW but can't remember his name, I remember the old samurai from SB but can't remember his name, I can remember Aardbert because he was pretty important to the plot since HW, and I have a terrible time differentiating Ascians (Elidibus is pretty easy since he's the only one in white). Looking forward to DT!
I think XIV took the same approach as Marvel did with Endgame. our timeline is not the original timeline, I think just a branch same to the Endgame timeline. so our timeline is solved by going back to Elpis but this implied that the original timeline solved the Final Days legit without time traveling.
@ericbright1742 Which is kinda sad tbh. Poor Metetion is still suffering in the collective consciousness and the sacrificed ancients remain trapped on the moon
The storytelling for these raids felt overly convoluted for what should have been simple enough to say, and it was pretty hard to remember in between the tiers releasing.
"She sounds like Emet-Selch without the same motivation." Thank you. Pretty tired of seeing the same people who fawn over Emet completely despise Athena when they are both basically the same, their motivations not that different. They both are willing to sacrifice anything and everyone for their own self serving goals, even using their own children for it. Athena wanted to reshape reality to her whim, Emet wanted to reshape reality to his whim. Emet's whim is just more familiar to most people, since it's easier to grasp "I want my old life back" than "I want to perfect creation," but in the end they are both on the same road employing the same tactics and tools. Those who see Emet's actions as better than Athena's because they think he has a "good reason" then, well as Zenos put it; a beast's skin would suit them better.
There is a huge difference between them. Athena was seeking perfection to see if she could do it. Emet-Selch was attempting to undo a vicious assault. The goal of the Ascians was to put their people back together after they'd be ripped apart and reduce their suffering as they are effectively being run through a torture machine. Reduction of suffering is my second highest moral value, so I understand Emet-Selch's goal, Athena was purposely increasing suffering, the same as Venat does (for the same reason, to create what they view to be a superior version of the human race). The reason I can't agree with Emet-Selch is because respecting the autonomy of other people is my highest value. Emet-Selch didn't do this, neither did Athena, neither did Venat, neither did Hermes. The Ancients as a people seem to have a huge inability to respect the rights of others. All of them are absolutely sure they know what's best for everyone and act accordingly. However, there is an exception to my highest moral that Emet-Selch arguably squeezes through. I don't believe you should respect the autonomy of those who are unfit to make decisions for themselves. Like I don't think you should let a baby stick a butter knife in a socket cause they want to. Or let someone hallucinating jump off a building because they believe they can fly. And given the human race after being Sundered were reduced to animals incapable of speech or complex thought, they were not in a position to decide if they wanted to be run through Venat's torture machine or put back together. It was up to the last three people of their species who were of sound mind to make that decision for them. The problem is...they re-evolved. And the thing is evolution isn't a on/off switch, they weren't apes one day, people the next, it's a gradual process. And Emet-Selch's entire arc in Shadowbringers is trying to figure out if we're people yet. That was what the evaluation was about. Sure he drew the line of personhood at something stupid like being able to hold light, but when the human race has been torn apart and mutated, by what metric does one use to figure out, "are these things people yet?" You can argue sentience, but the characters don't seem to view light wardens and voidsent as people even though they are sentient. After we fail his "test," he is distraught because he wants us to be people. He wants to be able to stop. But when he goes into the lifestream, he's gonna come out as whatever we are, so he has to fix the world as much as he possibly can because this lifetime is his only chance to do so. When we defeat him, he's happy, relieved. We've proven our personhood to him. While in most cases I'd argue we shouldn't have to prove our personhood to anyone, but in most cases no one has the ability to magically devolve any entire sentient species back down to apes.
@@ChroniclerofLore Thanks so much. I watch your videos all the time and I really love your takes. Oddly enough, the idea Emet-Selch is just tempered is a very popular take on his actions even though he explains his reasoning point by point with visual aids in Shadowbringers. I love that story because it's more like real world conflicts where no one is 100% right or 100% wrong. He has a point that we're made out of parts of his people and he has the right to become a repo man. And we have a point that we didn't steal his people's parts, we were just born with them and to give them back requires our destruction and the destruction of everyone and everything we know and love. My favorite stories are the ones where the protagonist and antagonist are both trying to do what's best for everyone, but simply disagree on what that is given that's how most people really act rather than anyone being a mustache twirling villain. We are each the hero of our own story.
@@MissKashira Can I ask you a huge favor? I'm IN LOVE with Emet-Selch and the Ascians, but unfortunately I can't play the game. I'm narrating an RPG and I'm using the Ascians as a base. Could I ask you some questions about the lore? There's a lot I don't understand and I wanted to do something as faithful as possible.
@@mariannafriedrich9536 Sure, but you should know there are a lot of things left open-ended and I am highly biased towards one interpretation of events over the more accepted one given it makes more sense and is more consistent, while the other better fits the tone, but would require accepting several inconsistencies.
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Check out my novel Eternal Reign here:
Eternal Reign a.co/d/bsl9Wwj
In the Japanese lines, Athena does mention that she had found a rather tattered soul that the memories would help patch up into something useful. This ended up being Themis.
This implies that this Themis was actually Elidibus, after he died sending us to Elpis. This also implies that Hyedaelyn brought Elidibus's soul to the Source.
That's why Themis remembers the fight in the Crystal Tower. It actually was him.
I’m just glad we got to part ways with Themis as friends. But not before we got to face Elidibus proper. We finally got to face the Ascian in white, not as a primal, or ardbert, or Zenos. Just as he was. And what a battle it was
Closed Loop time travel stories are pretty much the only way to do it without major plot holes, even if it makes far less sense to our usual understanding of linear time. I can't honestly claim to understand it all, but I think they did the best they could.
I've read some parallel split timeline stories that slapped... But I do think closed loop is best for this setting.
That or Multiverse Theory, like with Dragon Ball Z. You can change *a* future, but not *your* future.
@@BlitzkriegOmega which is how it worked in shadowbringers
It's also good for protecting the integrity of the main plot without ruining it for people who do not do the raids. You can pretty much skip raids without realising the world almost got destroyed before you head into the next xpac
Closed Loop Hole stories can still have plot holes, though. You can say EW/Elpis is us entering a closed loop. But there's an issue with this plot, which is the existence of the parallel dimension from which the Exarch comes. If there is a timeline in which we die, then to me this means there is no loop - we just are in the "correct" timeline. But there must be a timeline in which the decisions of Venat are different, one in which the Ascians win, one in which Etheyris is never sundered, etc.
Just want to say I love your channel. Not just this video but all of them. This is a huge game and some of your videos really help with rehashing old content so I can be more invested. Please keep it up. Will make sure to like/comment on all your videos from here on!
really appreciate your videos! been listening to your raid recap videos this week. its nice to go through some of the side stories again that we dont get to spend as much time with as the msq.
Thank you so much for making these videos. You help me to either refresh my memory or help me understand parts of the story that were confusing.
The time travel makes perfect sense to me. From a 4th dimension perspective time is a single point with every event in history. Spreading that out into the third dimension technically doesn’t change the fact that everything has already occurred from the beginning of time to the end of time and thus we have already made every decision that we will ever make. Avengers Endgame did a good job with the physics of time travel. Ok that not I have subscribed. Can’t wait to play this game on the Xbox
Thanks for the recap. My raid group all but forced me to skip the last third of the story so I always wondered what happened.
I woulda found a new raid group lol
@1shogunate696 I mean it was partly on me because I did give them availability times that started right after work for me and it was patch drop day.
Thank you for this. I was hella confused throughout the entirety of this raid
A note on the spelling of Phoinix. It's not misspelt, it's just how it's spelt in Greek if it were to be written with the latin Alphabet,following the trend of things that have anything to do with the ancients being named in Greek (Ericthonios, Athena .. everything really).
Please do other raids! I got friends that skipped a lot cause they are baby brain and someone like you is the only hope they have!
Also, your way of telling the story is superb, really gives "homie" vibes.
I've covered all of the raids now. You can find them all on this playlist. The Complete Story (FFXIV Lore): th-cam.com/play/PLthFUv-zRWno8hSmAemExPShjPCrFQT9n.html
wait wait wait wait
Azem: "fear not for a star will come and help"
does that mean Azem knows about us? would that mean that this pretty much happens after the first trip hence Azem learns of us n is like "oh cool, another me to help around, finally"
At the very least, azem knows about us because venat told them about working with us in elpis, the question is how much does azem know about us being another version of them, and how did azem know that we would be coming back to deal with pandæmonium? I feel like it's implied that azem has some sort of future sight/gift of prophecy. Which now that I think of it, also makes a lot of sense considering I believe it is stated that the summoning spell we have from azem's crystal was specifically made to summon "heroes from different ages" which would imply that azem had some form of time magics.
@@althelor Azem has to have future sight. It's the only way to explain them telling Themis where to stand so we'd land on them. Yes, our unsundered soul uses their immense power to pull pranks...An alternate theory is that Azem doesn't have future sight, but is the player character who collects all their shards and goes back in time to become Azem and so we're just remembering our past, it's not that Azem sees the future, which would make the entire game one endless time loop.
Really great work! Love your story telling.
thank you SO much for making this!! i ran through this entire raid series with a friend and we were so excited for the fights that we just skipped all the cutscenes and story 😅
HERETIC!
Athena: Hm? I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Hm? I'm sorry I don't really care. I'm going to be a god. Hm? Why? Because.
been binging these videos at work, love your recaps....but how many times do you fantasia bro you look different every raid tier 😂
Bought you a few cups of coffee. Amazing job. ☕
😁😁 thanks ☕️ ☕️ is always appreciated 🙏
Great job 👍
What a psychopath Athena is.
Will you cover the story of the dawn trail normal raids?
Ima need that intro beat
thanks!
Someone needs to teach that bunny girl about pants
he sent you back to meet him so he would know he had to send you back to meet him and...oh dear I've gone cross-eyed.
Honestly trying to keep all of the major story events in 14 in order is a headache and a half, and my ability to remember certain character names from one expansion to the next is spotty at best (outside of the Scions and some of the Ascians).
I remember one guy who died in HW but can't remember his name, I remember the old samurai from SB but can't remember his name, I can remember Aardbert because he was pretty important to the plot since HW, and I have a terrible time differentiating Ascians (Elidibus is pretty easy since he's the only one in white).
Looking forward to DT!
I think XIV took the same approach as Marvel did with Endgame. our timeline is not the original timeline, I think just a branch same to the Endgame timeline. so our timeline is solved by going back to Elpis but this implied that the original timeline solved the Final Days legit without time traveling.
The original timeline was G'raha's timeline. They hadn't solved the Final Days, even 200 years after the Eighth Umbral Calamity.
@ericbright1742 Which is kinda sad tbh. Poor Metetion is still suffering in the collective consciousness and the sacrificed ancients remain trapped on the moon
Wait how was Athena reborn? Wasnt she killed? 1:01
I didnt click anything. It was autoplaying while Im questing.
i wouldve watched all raid stories if the dev team would've put more effort by voicing it in but they never do which pisses me off ao much
This aged will with content getting easier…have you seen Abyssal Fracture EX!? That should have been the normal version…
I like to think the true name of azem was Zeus
The storytelling for these raids felt overly convoluted for what should have been simple enough to say, and it was pretty hard to remember in between the tiers releasing.
"She sounds like Emet-Selch without the same motivation."
Thank you. Pretty tired of seeing the same people who fawn over Emet completely despise Athena when they are both basically the same, their motivations not that different. They both are willing to sacrifice anything and everyone for their own self serving goals, even using their own children for it. Athena wanted to reshape reality to her whim, Emet wanted to reshape reality to his whim. Emet's whim is just more familiar to most people, since it's easier to grasp "I want my old life back" than "I want to perfect creation," but in the end they are both on the same road employing the same tactics and tools. Those who see Emet's actions as better than Athena's because they think he has a "good reason" then, well as Zenos put it; a beast's skin would suit them better.
There is a huge difference between them. Athena was seeking perfection to see if she could do it. Emet-Selch was attempting to undo a vicious assault. The goal of the Ascians was to put their people back together after they'd be ripped apart and reduce their suffering as they are effectively being run through a torture machine. Reduction of suffering is my second highest moral value, so I understand Emet-Selch's goal, Athena was purposely increasing suffering, the same as Venat does (for the same reason, to create what they view to be a superior version of the human race). The reason I can't agree with Emet-Selch is because respecting the autonomy of other people is my highest value. Emet-Selch didn't do this, neither did Athena, neither did Venat, neither did Hermes. The Ancients as a people seem to have a huge inability to respect the rights of others. All of them are absolutely sure they know what's best for everyone and act accordingly.
However, there is an exception to my highest moral that Emet-Selch arguably squeezes through. I don't believe you should respect the autonomy of those who are unfit to make decisions for themselves. Like I don't think you should let a baby stick a butter knife in a socket cause they want to. Or let someone hallucinating jump off a building because they believe they can fly. And given the human race after being Sundered were reduced to animals incapable of speech or complex thought, they were not in a position to decide if they wanted to be run through Venat's torture machine or put back together. It was up to the last three people of their species who were of sound mind to make that decision for them.
The problem is...they re-evolved. And the thing is evolution isn't a on/off switch, they weren't apes one day, people the next, it's a gradual process. And Emet-Selch's entire arc in Shadowbringers is trying to figure out if we're people yet. That was what the evaluation was about. Sure he drew the line of personhood at something stupid like being able to hold light, but when the human race has been torn apart and mutated, by what metric does one use to figure out, "are these things people yet?" You can argue sentience, but the characters don't seem to view light wardens and voidsent as people even though they are sentient. After we fail his "test," he is distraught because he wants us to be people. He wants to be able to stop. But when he goes into the lifestream, he's gonna come out as whatever we are, so he has to fix the world as much as he possibly can because this lifetime is his only chance to do so.
When we defeat him, he's happy, relieved. We've proven our personhood to him. While in most cases I'd argue we shouldn't have to prove our personhood to anyone, but in most cases no one has the ability to magically devolve any entire sentient species back down to apes.
I read your entire comment and thoroughly enjoyed your breakdown. Very well stated 👏
@@ChroniclerofLore Thanks so much. I watch your videos all the time and I really love your takes. Oddly enough, the idea Emet-Selch is just tempered is a very popular take on his actions even though he explains his reasoning point by point with visual aids in Shadowbringers.
I love that story because it's more like real world conflicts where no one is 100% right or 100% wrong. He has a point that we're made out of parts of his people and he has the right to become a repo man. And we have a point that we didn't steal his people's parts, we were just born with them and to give them back requires our destruction and the destruction of everyone and everything we know and love.
My favorite stories are the ones where the protagonist and antagonist are both trying to do what's best for everyone, but simply disagree on what that is given that's how most people really act rather than anyone being a mustache twirling villain. We are each the hero of our own story.
@@MissKashira Can I ask you a huge favor? I'm IN LOVE with Emet-Selch and the Ascians, but unfortunately I can't play the game. I'm narrating an RPG and I'm using the Ascians as a base. Could I ask you some questions about the lore? There's a lot I don't understand and I wanted to do something as faithful as possible.
@@mariannafriedrich9536 Sure, but you should know there are a lot of things left open-ended and I am highly biased towards one interpretation of events over the more accepted one given it makes more sense and is more consistent, while the other better fits the tone, but would require accepting several inconsistencies.
FIRST?