I built myself a pair of NX Oticas. Have upgraded electronics progressively over the last year or so. Now have over $50k in gear upstream of these speakers. Every upgrade upstream, these speakers just get better. Truly end game.
It would be great if you could do a video on what stats for a driver are ideally suitable for open-baffle use, Such as cone weight, QTs and so on and why.
Hi Danny, I'm an architect, located in Cologne/ Germany and since 1975 I became very curious about roomdesign and sound quality. And for the last month I'm helping a friend to check the possibilities with a new material, for me. It's a foam of ceramic with incredible specs, especially for acoustic questions. It's the best sound absorbing material I ever tested. The combination of thin membranecells with the strength of ceramic builds up an unique absorber from very low frequencies to 20k and above. As I saw your video this morning, I immediately thought, that the open baffle concept and with the wings, must be tested with this new material. The possibilities are countless, even for all the acoustic staff as absorbers to optimise a room, walls and so on. Later I will send you an email with some test sheets and some links. Maybe you'll get infected as I am right now. Greetings Stubby or Stefan
You are right with the Linkwitz LX521 fall off of the lower frequencies. Linkwitz actively made use of this fall-off by 6 dB/oct. As this fall-off is linear, it is perfect to use the characteristic and counterbalance this with opposite 6 dB/oct filters using active filtering and dedicated amplifiers per speaker.: The only disadvantage is the dedicated amplifiers which require quite some power. But he went further: for each speaker, he used its specific fall-off characteristic, and combined these in a 4-way configuration, whereby the spacial acoustic profile stays constant going from subwoofer to mid-low to mid-high and tweeter. The mid-high goes from 1000 to 7000 Hz, covering the vocal range by one speaker without overlap. As combination: extremely clean. The shape of the LX 521 contribute to the spacial acoustic profile, and broadens the transition area from the -6db/Oct to the horizontal characteristic. I have built the LX 521s using the original spec Seas drivers. They sound phenomenal!
@@dannyrichie9743 I would love to see you address the Linkwitz Pluto and LX521 in one of your video's. The Orion you referred to (very similar to your Super-V speaker of those days), was certainly not the latest of his iterations. He concluded that the LX521 was the crown on his work, with the Pluto coming very close for smaller rooms. I look forward to this!
@@fvdveen1 The LX521 was an experiment in my mind. It has advantages, but also some real bottlenecks. I would strongly recommend hearing the NX Series models and you will quickly understand what I am saying.
I've got my mids suspended by chains. Yes I have maximum cancellation, but it is like the speakers almost don't exist. It is only when a particular track does the pan from one side to the other back and forth that you even know the speakers are there.
This is why I was so impressed that Wilson Audio made their speaker enclosures taper toward the top. Big box for the woofers, fine, but the mid and tweeter should be in an enclosure that tappers. This has the added benefit of breaking up standing waves within the enclosure if they are within an enclosure.
Hi Danny I’m in that FB group too and I keep advising those guys to look at yr videos especially the one where you describe the process for determining the optimal side wing size… It’s incredible the weird designs people cone up with rather than take a fully developed design and build that themselves - but they’d rather re-invent the wheel ..
Some folks use hobbies like audio as a creative outlet and not strictly as a pursuit of the best sound. Keep in mind that not everyone's reasoning for doing something, be it speaker design or, say, painting is the same. Now, if a guy says he's looking for the best frequency response and can't figure out why he's not getting it from his large baffle then there's an issue. But if he just thinks it looks cool, sounds good to him and doesn't care about other factors then Danny's ideas don't mean a thing to a guy like that.
@@Saltysteele Yes. And the people that this "happens to", usually will have an amazing amount of knowledge about the basics, whether from school or self-learning.
Translate from bulgarian. На нас ни се внушава, че науката е открила всичко и е достатъчно то да се овладее. Всеки добър професионалист, първо е бил търсещ знания аматьор. Британия е скрила от човечеството от 6000 до 8000 патента, за да има елитарно предимство. Затова основни неща от науката, са обвити в скрито невежество. Такъв пример са повърхностните вълни в акустиката. Там се получава въртене вследствие различни скорости на разпространение, на границата между две среди с контрастни свойства. В резултат стандартната физика не е валидна. Получава се трансформация на енергиите и начина им на разпространение.
The edge diffraction on a large symmetrical baffle is worse not just because of the forward diffraction. The large baffle, delays the diffraction and THAT makes it easier for our brain to “hear”.
Translate from bulgarian. Използвайте стъкло за да се получат повърхностни вълни (скрито знание) и голяма еквивалентна излъчваща повърхност с малък високоговорител за ниските честоти и намалена максимална амплитуда на мембраната (Xmax).
9:27 I made speakers with an open 5" wide range driver on top of a box and a woofer in the box. The best speakers I ever made! They have that "more transparent" sound with bass and lower med range. 😊 The cleanest med range I ever heard in a speaker. But I did a lot more to it than just having one driver in the box and one open air. 😅
Very thankful for the information you share with us Danny. I'm keen to experiment with these ideas now, but ultimately I want to try out one of your kits.
This was a great video. I first heard about the wings of open baffle design on the Betsy Driver page which I think condensed a thread by Dan Mason from AudioCircle. I appreciate you sharing the "secrets" that so many people miss when doing DIY. I liked the video and would request a follow-up video based on responses.
For DIY, the main thing is to choose trouble-free drivers - are those that are easy to work with and simple to filter. Usually these are speakers with a descending frequency response, without any emissions at the end of the frequency response (in the form of a “shepherd’s stand” or mountain like most SB, which require high-order filters and the use of notch chains).
Very enlightening, now I understand why the drivers are on the inside of the Brutes an Bully's instead of the outside. Could the folded a-symmetric baffle be applied to the x-statik?
Rule of thumb is to keep those ranges below 200Hz, but it also depends on the depth of the U shaped frame. The deeper the frame the lower they need to cross, and with a shallow frame they can cross higher.
Nice video and info. I have ordered from Clayton Shaw Acoustic Lab there CALADAN. Getting my 1st Open Baffle speaker and his history will be a good starting point for Open Baffle system.
I have owned some high end narrow baffled speakers -Dynaudio C5,Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors for example.All the best sounding speakers I have owned have had quite wide baffles.Gale 401s sound much better when they are horizontal which means a wide baffle.15 inch Tannoys always sound best on a large wide baffle.One of the best sounding modern speakers is the Yamaha NS5000 which has a iwde baffle.Troels Gravesen is not afraid of designing wide baffle speakers and they are amongst his most popular designs.
They can be popular, they can sound pretty good, but the effects of the large baffle size will always eat into imaging, transparency, and sound stage layering.
@@dannyrichie9743 Yes they have the potential to have those problems. Like Yamaha NS1000s which have poor imaging.But I have Yamaha NS75Ts which are very similar but which have excellent imaging.With modern technology it should not be a problem.With the bonus of higher sensitivity and to my ears a midrange which sounds more natural,expressive and having more realistic body.
Could you maybe make a video about directionality of panel tweeters? How do you avoid the very narrow listening position, but without sacrificing too much? Distance from the floor, is it always 37"-38", is it always direct at you or is tilting maybe good?
Directionality with planar tweeters is a non factor unless you start using really tall tweeters. It is ideal to stay with tweeter no taller than 3" or so.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you so much. I hope you may answer one more question: I have often seen these types of tweeters being mounted with a wide "horn" in front of it, and some say it should widen the listening area?
Question, on an old school speaker would the crossover have to be changed if the tweeter and midrange were centred in the baffle as opposed to ran down the side? I’m guessing the position of the drivers changes the measurements? Thanks!
Question. Have a pair of Old School Pioneers that needs new cabinets. Tweeter (dome), mid (dome) and 10” woofer centred on the baffle. If I move T+M closer to the side, will I get in trouble then? Pioneer made a smaller speaker (volume ) with the exact same drivers and crossover design and parts, where the tweeter and mid was mounted side to side.
@@rikardekvall3433 yes the crossover would need to be changed But if you sent Danny one of your finished speakers he could come up with a crossover design that would blow the factory Pioneer one out of the water
Something im confused at the moment with, audio wisdom calls for as narrow baffle as physically possible to minimise defraction.Two of the top two open baffle speakers at present seems to be Qualio and Linkwitz, the first uses a wide acrylic baffle, the second uses a narrow baffle closely mirroring the edge of the drivers. Both soumd outstanding but i feel the Qualio with wide baffle sounds slightly superior, i suppose the manner in which the drivers are mounted affects the end result as does the difference in drivers as the Q has a ribbon or amt tweeter and the L has traditional dome tweeter. Food for thought !
I bought a pair of TCM3 speakers from Randy McCarter at Omni Sound in Dallas back in the 90s. They are two way towers with Toby woofers and Vifa tweeters. The tweeters have a ~8x10x1" thick wool batting mat mounted around them to control refraction. I wonder if any open baffle speakers with really wide baffles would benefit from your No-Res material? PS- Randy's TCM3 speakers are still my favorite speakers, though your open baffle designs are really tempting!
Looks like they are having a good time and are very creative. Hopefully they will see this video and make improvements. At least they are experimenting.
Hi Danny, great vid. It got me wonderin', the short distance between driver front & rear waves on the side with no side-baffle will limit LF extension. Is the asymmetry a problem? Would angled side-baffles on both sides of the front baffle improve driver LF extension without introducing box colorations? If so, which angle is optimum? Are angled side-baffles a mini horn?
Please desribe how the sound changes when people mount the speaker on the back of the baffle vs flush although I know the drivers frequencies are still translated to the baffle in either case and if you were to use sound deading materials whether it be the baffle material itself or an add on like stick on sound absortion mat, how that could affect the baffles performance. Thank you for all you do!
Amendment to my earlier question. I know bose 301 speakers have then cabinets. I was interested in is it upgradable. The Acoustic Wave, the same information. Thanks
We need more on open baffle speakers ...😬😑😶🌫️ And mine is one of the big baffle ones but I'm in love with it I'm not to bothered about hq sound I'm trying to get it I'm listening to a speaker from the 50 60s that the sound I like is had hi end speaker before but the 60s sounds is for me all the eay😊
Actually, I just heard their top model over at Ron's. The tweeter had good resolution down low, but lacked air and space. All of the spatial ques were pretty flat. They sounded to me like they had cheap caps on them. The bass was solid and I heard no noise from the cabinets. The vocals sounded like they had a rising response that made female vocals hard to listen to. Male vocals were not as bad. They sounded like they had a peak near 1kHz that I was not liking. Maybe there was a resonance there or something. They were nails on a chalk board in that region.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you for your experience. I have a Copland cta405 tube amp and play vinyl on my Lenco L75, so they might not be for my taste. I'm OK for now with my Epos ES11s. I'm thinking about Spendor or similar. But eventually a good deal will surface.
I'm wondering. Yes decent signal wire counts. Don't cross on top of power cables. Keep them not touching. Just like Cat-5, don't lay them on top of a florescent light. Though that braiding helps with signal bandwidth. Not strong E.M. interference. Don't have to spend thousands of dollars to have decent cables. From the AC outlet to the internal speaker wire. That journey is important. Good Head unit or dac, good streaming, I'll won't use WiFi or Bluetooth, good preamp, good amp, good speaker wire, good speakers. I'm ranting. What I would like to know if there is a formula or guide on the baffle size. From the edge of speaker to the edge of the baffle. I've built some open baffle. Yes front loading your bass speakers helps. I've been using a circle ⭕. For my latest projects. So they kinda look like a snow man. Sound waves are circular from the source. More or less. That changing the distance from edge to edge, even just two inches more, you can hear it. Bass, to me needs more distance then the mid bass, mids, and highs. Maybe I'm stupid. But, no one is in my rooms listening to them. They measured good. Personal preference.
Hello from canada! A thought for you..back in dark ages my high school gym had two vertical array speakers...horizontal dispersion minimal vertical...then in my design build life a lot of old school boxes ss well as horn arrays in theatres. Now suddenly my old scool heresy and cerwin vegas are replaced by very expensive vertical arrays and the large group of rock performers systems have changed to vertical arrays for the same reason as my old high school. Big bands can use less equipment but get better coverage. Interesting convergence of tech...what do you think...teally enjoy your tech assessments and builds.
Danny, please stop teasing. 🙏🏻😂 When can we get kits for the LGK open baffle speakers? Pretty please! 🙏🏻 Those look incredible! 🤤 Please tell us you are releasing them soon.
One of the big problems with the open baffle not having a stiff baffle that it doesn't vibrate. I have the Spatial Audio Lab X-5 which is very good sounding speakers. The I bought the X-4. That was a big mistake. Both the wood and the metal backing are 1/2 the thickness of the X-5. Any base sound causes the baffle and speakers to vibrate and sounds horrible. The side wings can help strengthen the baffle.
I haven't had the chance to listen good OB speakers but I listened to MBL 126 omni-directional speakers in a HI-FI show. It was so different and interesting! I noticed right away that something weird is going on when I entered that particular listening room.
Never thought about side wings in OB design, thanks for the suggestion! Thanks for the great info, really appreciate you inspiring the speaker building community. I was also thinking about combining OB speakers with strategically placed absorption material like no-res and what that does to the diffractions and reflections, both on the speaker case/baffle as well as surrounding it.
My speakers are open baffle. The tweeter is mounted top center with considerable baffle area around it. Would an absorption material around the driver covering the baffle be of help?
10:00 I have 5" open drivers with a crossover filter on them to mitigate that 1 khz peak (in my speakers with a woofer). I did a sweep on them and 250 hz was loud and clear from the open driver. I use them with a boxed woofer and it crosses over at about 300 hz. That's a wide band that is handled by the 5" open driver. The more med range you can get into the open driver (compared to the woofer) the cleaner the med range sounds. Med range from a woofer sucks! That's my opinion.
Danny, I been anxiously waiting for your great videos. Why are these smaller black open baffle 3” one not on your website? I need to know the price and specs please. Is it still being sold? Also Would it run well with Cambridge Audio AXA35?
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks. I am looking for a small bookshelf with open baffle transparency and some fast bass-punch down to 80 to 60 hz. I am saving up for your next version Danny 🙌
@@dannyrichie9743 I've never heard a difference in any cables I've tested unless they were defective or complete crap like phone wire etc. I've never seen anyone else that could distinguish one cable from another in an A/B blind test and I've never seen measurements telling of any real difference, but yet people like me are the flat earthers...? I like all your other stuff but your stance on cables is unprofessional and on the level of "Trust me bro". Sure you can't do better than that?
@@Krikstar123 99 times out of 100 when people can't tell a difference it is due to the quality level of the system that they are listening on. I have also picked the differences in speaker cables blindly and on camera. It is not that hard and easy to demonstrate.
@@dannyrichie9743 Sounds interesting! Would love to see that :-) Have never found or seen anyone that could. Will you make a video on the subject one day? Could also be interesting to know more about why it can't be measured (as far as I know)
Another great discussion about speakers, I was just thinking the next step would be to have baffles that actually move Around on the side, or in the back to affect sound waves physically, and I’m just spacing out on this… Lol ……HMMMM
Speaker cables... yes. Power cables? I'm stumped by the fact people state that internal and external speaker wire should be contiguous etc.... yet then are fine having a $450 super power cord connected to a $5 GPO and house full of $0.15 / m copper 3 core and everything it entails. I don't see it reducing any of the issues in the power system.
So why did KLH model 5 build their speakers with the tweeters and mids in the center of the cabinets? Would it have been better if they moved them to a side?
I don't really know much about acoustics and I assume they behave differently to microwaves but what about having the sides open and having a cone like back, it should be possible to calculate a cone that lets the different bass frequencies bounce whilst not canceling out? If anyone has a good explanation why it would or would not work I would appreciate the read Something like: | \ | /
GR- Do you answer comments? I like your videos a lot and I have a question that perhaps you can help me with. I just picked up an older enormous center channel speaker, a Paradigm CC-390. It's 40 in long, 15 in deep and weighs 70 lb. It's a three-way design and utilizes four 6.5 in woofers yet for some reason it's only rated down to 75 Hz. Here are the actual specifications; The CC-390v5's listening-window response measures +2.07/-3.17 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/-15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.10/-2.89 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The -3-dB point is at 82 Hz, and the -6-dB point is at 67 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 3.92 ohms at 587 Hz and a phase angle of -63.22 degrees at 91 Hz. 44Hz (DIN). My question is; Why would such a large center be designed with such a limited low end frequency response? This seems extremely unusual to me and very unexpected.
the reflective surface area is the same, the resonance frequency will change but the surface area available to produce reflections is exactly the same. doh.
I'm just wondering if an open baffle speaker has left and right. I mean does the long side wing always be on the same side regardless of the left and right speaker position?
Daniel, over a 20 mile wide lake how much bend or curve should there be? Based on the earth diameter there is a mathematical formula to show how much of the opposite shoreline should be "hidden" (eight in / ml squared)
@@dannyrichie9743 Here's an example. From a peak in Scotland at 3,000 ft Mont Blanc and other European mountains were photographed. Using math and/or autocad Mont Blanc should be around 50 miles below the 'kerv' Through testing using lasers and mirror flashes lakes and all bodies of water measure ------- In fact on a 20 Mile lake with a camera 3 ft from the surface the opposite shore should be 213 ft below a physical horizon based on the sphere math What we do have is an optical horizon but not a physical one. Find a flat warehouse floor of at least several hundred yards in length, put a camera on it with the lens close to the floor surface. You will find that the bottom of objects disappear once they are several hundreds of yards out.
@@dannyrichie9743 Here's an example. From a peak in Scotland at 3,000 ft, Mont Blanc and other European mountains were photographed at 700 plus miles away. Using actual geometry and verified on autocad, Mont Blanc should be around 50 miles below line of sight.... !!! Through testing using lasers and mirror reflections of sunlight lakes and all bodies of water measure ____________ What we have is an optical horizon but not a physical one. Find a warehouse floor of at least several hundred yards in length, put a camera on it with the lens close to the floor surface. You will find that the bottom of objects disappear once they are several hundreds of yards out. In fact on a 20 Mile lake with a camera 3 ft from the surface the opposite shore should be 213 ft below the (her eye zone) based on geometry and math
Well, it is as always a question of personal taste and personal preference: Forward, powerful, close and engageing presence and or a distant, weak, deep soundstage.
Hello Danny, don't let you making crazy or something like that. "Just buy them a sheep and ask them to make a sweater of it"?. They don't know what they asking. I like your video's very much. Am a carpenter and my teacher was a church organ builder. I wish you succes of what you are doing.
If someone can actually demonstrate to me the science of power cables ACTUALLY making a difference to the sound and it isn't just there being something wrong with one of the cables, I might believe it even if it's a measurable but not noticable difference. Like I was able to demonstrate to myself the actual science of signal interconnect leads sounding different by playing around with cable of vastly different capacitance, resistance, and inductance, changing the natural RC/RL filtering characteristics of the interconnect. This produced wildly different sound simply by changing the RCA analogue leads
I just lost one of my Carver Amazing Platinum speakers to a catastrophic amp meltdown. Heartbroken doesn’t describe it as I loved the sound. Box speakers just can’t compete. I’m planning to give the Caladans a try as soon as I pay the repair bill off for the Sunfire that went nuclear. 🤦♂️
Just after I watched this video TH-cam suggested I watch "Alpha Labs - Explaining the HUGE Cable Test! More than 70 Cables!" I'd give a direct link but I noticed that when I put a link in a comment (even if it is another TH-cam video) my comment magically disappears.
Confirmed, disappears for me too. (Says '1 reply' here but can't expand to see my prior reply). Probably anti-spam. Perhaps people could just do v=dQw4w9WgXcQ , and then people would get the point and know what to do.
I think a few month ago on one of the small speakers you were discussing I made a comment about it being an open baffle 😁 Nice to see the little "wedgie" taking shape..
I built myself a pair of NX Oticas. Have upgraded electronics progressively over the last year or so. Now have over $50k in gear upstream of these speakers. Every upgrade upstream, these speakers just get better. Truly end game.
It would be great if you could do a video on what stats for a driver are ideally suitable for open-baffle use, Such as cone weight, QTs and so on and why.
easy question: it doesn't matter
@@ahnenpost5237 Do a little research
@@ahnenpost5237if moving the air is what moves you, then the thing that moves the air is everything.
True, but what about the U shape baffle?
The earth is flat Bigfoot told me so
WOW when are we going to get the little NX. That looks like a fun speaker
Hi Danny,
I'm an architect, located in Cologne/ Germany and since 1975 I became very curious about roomdesign and sound quality.
And for the last month I'm helping a friend to check the possibilities with a new material, for me. It's a foam of ceramic with incredible specs, especially for acoustic questions. It's the best sound absorbing material I ever tested. The combination of thin membranecells with the strength of ceramic builds up an unique absorber from very low frequencies to 20k and above.
As I saw your video this morning, I immediately thought, that the open baffle concept and with the wings, must be tested with this new material. The possibilities are countless, even for all the acoustic staff as absorbers to optimise a room, walls and so on.
Later I will send you an email with some test sheets and some links.
Maybe you'll get infected as I am right now.
Greetings
Stubby or Stefan
This would be nice to see in the gr research audiocircle forum!
can you share please, what is new material called ?
Thanks Danny, been in this hobby a long time but I always learn something from your videos
You are right with the Linkwitz LX521 fall off of the lower frequencies. Linkwitz actively made use of this fall-off by 6 dB/oct. As this fall-off is linear, it is perfect to use the characteristic and counterbalance this with opposite 6 dB/oct filters using active filtering and dedicated amplifiers per speaker.: The only disadvantage is the dedicated amplifiers which require quite some power. But he went further: for each speaker, he used its specific fall-off characteristic, and combined these in a 4-way configuration, whereby the spacial acoustic profile stays constant going from subwoofer to mid-low to mid-high and tweeter. The mid-high goes from 1000 to 7000 Hz, covering the vocal range by one speaker without overlap. As combination: extremely clean. The shape of the LX 521 contribute to the spacial acoustic profile, and broadens the transition area from the -6db/Oct to the horizontal characteristic. I have built the LX 521s using the original spec Seas drivers. They sound phenomenal!
Wait until you hear one of our NX Series models. They are in a different league.
@@dannyrichie9743 I would love to see you address the Linkwitz Pluto and LX521 in one of your video's. The Orion you referred to (very similar to your Super-V speaker of those days), was certainly not the latest of his iterations. He concluded that the LX521 was the crown on his work, with the Pluto coming very close for smaller rooms. I look forward to this!
@@fvdveen1 The LX521 was an experiment in my mind. It has advantages, but also some real bottlenecks. I would strongly recommend hearing the NX Series models and you will quickly understand what I am saying.
I've got my mids suspended by chains. Yes I have maximum cancellation, but it is like the speakers almost don't exist. It is only when a particular track does the pan from one side to the other back and forth that you even know the speakers are there.
When people first get into high-end audio, they focus on the sound. Once they figure that out, they realize the sound stage is the end game.
You are correct.
This is why I was so impressed that Wilson Audio made their speaker enclosures taper toward the top. Big box for the woofers, fine, but the mid and tweeter should be in an enclosure that tappers. This has the added benefit of breaking up standing waves within the enclosure if they are within an enclosure.
Hi Danny I’m in that FB group too and I keep advising those guys to look at yr videos especially the one where you describe the process for determining the optimal side wing size… It’s incredible the weird designs people cone up with rather than take a fully developed design and build that themselves - but they’d rather re-invent the wheel ..
Some folks use hobbies like audio as a creative outlet and not strictly as a pursuit of the best sound. Keep in mind that not everyone's reasoning for doing something, be it speaker design or, say, painting is the same. Now, if a guy says he's looking for the best frequency response and can't figure out why he's not getting it from his large baffle then there's an issue. But if he just thinks it looks cool, sounds good to him and doesn't care about other factors then Danny's ideas don't mean a thing to a guy like that.
Very good point Dave. I agree. If those guys would ever see Danny’s videos which is a whole other question
that's how innovation happens- somebody does it better and doesn't fall into army ant formation
@@Saltysteele Yes. And the people that this "happens to", usually will have an amazing amount of knowledge about the basics, whether from school or self-learning.
Translate from bulgarian. На нас ни се внушава, че науката е открила всичко и е достатъчно то да се овладее. Всеки добър професионалист, първо е бил търсещ знания аматьор. Британия е скрила от човечеството от 6000 до 8000 патента, за да има елитарно предимство. Затова основни неща от науката, са обвити в скрито невежество. Такъв пример са повърхностните вълни в акустиката. Там се получава въртене вследствие различни скорости на разпространение, на границата между две среди с контрастни свойства. В резултат стандартната физика не е валидна. Получава се трансформация на енергиите и начина им на разпространение.
LGK's in an open baffle design! Mouthwatering idea. Can LGKs in a line source array be far behind?
The edge diffraction on a large symmetrical baffle is worse not just because of the forward diffraction. The large baffle, delays the diffraction and THAT makes it easier for our brain to “hear”.
That is true and good point.
Translate from bulgarian. Използвайте стъкло за да се получат повърхностни вълни (скрито знание) и голяма еквивалентна излъчваща повърхност с малък високоговорител за ниските честоти и намалена максимална амплитуда на мембраната (Xmax).
Those small open baffle speakers would fit amazingly in my front room!
Excellent video as I have also noticed the very wide baffle speakers many are building. Thank you for posting Danny!
That reminds me. I had a pair of Wharfdale SFB3's in the late 60's and they produced a lovely warm and very spacial sound. (Martin from the UK)
yes going back a long time ago our friends in the Uk had a mono hi fi system with one Sand Filled Baffle Wharfedale sounded pretty unique good
9:27 I made speakers with an open 5" wide range driver on top of a box and a woofer in the box. The best speakers I ever made! They have that "more transparent" sound with bass and lower med range. 😊 The cleanest med range I ever heard in a speaker. But I did a lot more to it than just having one driver in the box and one open air. 😅
As the owner of a pair of NX Oticas, I can only amplify what Danny says about them. They are amazing.
Very thankful for the information you share with us Danny. I'm keen to experiment with these ideas now, but ultimately I want to try out one of your kits.
This was a great video. I first heard about the wings of open baffle design on the Betsy Driver page which I think condensed a thread by Dan Mason from AudioCircle. I appreciate you sharing the "secrets" that so many people miss when doing DIY. I liked the video and would request a follow-up video based on responses.
For DIY, the main thing is to choose trouble-free drivers - are those that are easy to work with and simple to filter. Usually these are speakers with a descending frequency response, without any emissions at the end of the frequency response (in the form of a “shepherd’s stand” or mountain like most SB, which require high-order filters and the use of notch chains).
Albert Briggs wrote about his experiments with the open baffle for domestic use . Lots of useful findings .
Hello Danny, i agree with front pannel reflection, but what do think if front panel is covered with any soft material like carpet?
That only helps in some frequency ranges.
Put a glazz!
Is that small open baffle you set on the table available in a kit or as a complete speaker?
It was sold several years ago as a DIY kit with a flat pack.
Very enlightening, now I understand why the drivers are on the inside of the Brutes an Bully's instead of the outside. Could the folded a-symmetric baffle be applied to the x-statik?
Is there any calculations need to done for air spacing, when using a U shape baffle or wings?
What is the highest frequency you can use with a U shaped baffle up to, before boxyness sets in?
Rule of thumb is to keep those ranges below 200Hz, but it also depends on the depth of the U shaped frame. The deeper the frame the lower they need to cross, and with a shallow frame they can cross higher.
Nice video and info. I have ordered from Clayton Shaw Acoustic Lab there CALADAN. Getting my 1st Open Baffle speaker and his history will be a good starting point for Open Baffle system.
What does "transparent" in this case mean? Like it plays all around you without being able to tell where it comes from?
I have owned some high end narrow baffled speakers -Dynaudio C5,Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors for example.All the best sounding speakers I have owned have had quite wide baffles.Gale 401s sound much better when they are horizontal which means a wide baffle.15 inch Tannoys always sound best on a large wide baffle.One of the best sounding modern speakers is the Yamaha NS5000 which has a iwde baffle.Troels Gravesen is not afraid of designing wide baffle speakers and they are amongst his most popular designs.
They can be popular, they can sound pretty good, but the effects of the large baffle size will always eat into imaging, transparency, and sound stage layering.
@@dannyrichie9743 Yes they have the potential to have those problems. Like Yamaha NS1000s which have poor imaging.But I have Yamaha NS75Ts which are very similar but which have excellent imaging.With modern technology it should not be a problem.With the bonus of higher sensitivity and to my ears a midrange which sounds more natural,expressive and having more realistic body.
Big baffle is good for mono setup. It makes big sound from one driver
Could you maybe make a video about directionality of panel tweeters?
How do you avoid the very narrow listening position, but without sacrificing too much?
Distance from the floor, is it always 37"-38", is it always direct at you or is tilting maybe good?
Directionality with planar tweeters is a non factor unless you start using really tall tweeters. It is ideal to stay with tweeter no taller than 3" or so.
@@dannyrichie9743Thank you so much, does the same go for AMT, ribbon and so on?
@@friedmule5403 Yes it does.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you so much. I hope you may answer one more question:
I have often seen these types of tweeters being mounted with a wide "horn" in front of it, and some say it should widen the listening area?
@@friedmule5403 The Internet is full of crazy ideas.
Question, on an old school speaker would the crossover have to be changed if the tweeter and midrange were centred in the baffle as opposed to ran down the side? I’m guessing the position of the drivers changes the measurements? Thanks!
Yes, as different freqs are encountering different amounts and summation of diffraction energy.
Yes it does.
Question. Have a pair of Old School Pioneers that needs new cabinets. Tweeter (dome), mid (dome) and 10” woofer centred on the baffle. If I move T+M closer to the side, will I get in trouble then? Pioneer made a smaller speaker (volume ) with the exact same drivers and crossover design and parts, where the tweeter and mid was mounted side to side.
@@rikardekvall3433 yes the crossover would need to be changed But if you sent Danny one of your finished speakers he could come up with a crossover design that would blow the factory Pioneer one out of the water
@@JR-ho5qm Love to, but I live in Europe and it ain’t worth the shipping cost. I rather buy another kit from GR. NX-Studios…….mmmmm
Something im confused at the moment with, audio wisdom calls for as narrow baffle as physically possible to minimise defraction.Two of the top two open baffle speakers at present seems to be Qualio and Linkwitz, the first uses a wide acrylic baffle, the second uses a narrow baffle closely mirroring the edge of the drivers. Both soumd outstanding but i feel the Qualio with wide baffle sounds slightly superior, i suppose the manner in which the drivers are mounted affects the end result as does the difference in drivers as the Q has a ribbon or amt tweeter and the L has traditional dome tweeter. Food for thought !
I bought a pair of TCM3 speakers from Randy McCarter at Omni Sound in Dallas back in the 90s. They are two way towers with Toby woofers and Vifa tweeters. The tweeters have a ~8x10x1" thick wool batting mat mounted around them to control refraction. I wonder if any open baffle speakers with really wide baffles would benefit from your No-Res material? PS- Randy's TCM3 speakers are still my favorite speakers, though your open baffle designs are really tempting!
I saw the acrylic baffle you mentioned on Facebook. To my surprise most of the comments thought it was a great idea 😂.
That tells us most people in that group don't know what they're doing.
Looks like they are having a good time and are very creative. Hopefully they will see this video and make improvements. At least they are experimenting.
@@rockroll9513I'll agree with that. I've definitely had my fair share of fun not so practical experiments.
How would you handle large wide-band single drivers if you want to run them open baffle? Asymmetric wings?
Yes, asymmetrical wings are ideal for that.
Hi Danny, great vid. It got me wonderin', the short distance between driver front & rear waves on the side with no side-baffle will limit LF extension. Is the asymmetry a problem? Would angled side-baffles on both sides of the front baffle improve driver LF extension without introducing box colorations? If so, which angle is optimum? Are angled side-baffles a mini horn?
The short side wings are not a problem.
Wings are a definite must.
As much as can be done in the physical
Please desribe how the sound changes when people mount the speaker on the back of the baffle vs flush although I know the drivers frequencies are still translated to the baffle in either case and if you were to use sound deading materials whether it be the baffle material itself or an add on like stick on sound absortion mat, how that could affect the baffles performance. Thank you for all you do!
Amendment to my earlier question. I know bose 301 speakers have then cabinets. I was interested in is it upgradable. The Acoustic Wave, the same information. Thanks
Are the open baffle wings which extend out the back, should they be on the inside or the outside of the of stereo setup ???
We typically use the long wing on the inside.
What if you put a 120° horn on each side of the baffle?
We need more on open baffle speakers ...😬😑😶🌫️ And mine is one of the big baffle ones but I'm in love with it I'm not to bothered about hq sound I'm trying to get it I'm listening to a speaker from the 50 60s that the sound I like is had hi end speaker before but the 60s sounds is for me all the eay😊
Any thoughts about Arendal speakers?
Actually, I just heard their top model over at Ron's. The tweeter had good resolution down low, but lacked air and space. All of the spatial ques were pretty flat. They sounded to me like they had cheap caps on them. The bass was solid and I heard no noise from the cabinets. The vocals sounded like they had a rising response that made female vocals hard to listen to. Male vocals were not as bad. They sounded like they had a peak near 1kHz that I was not liking. Maybe there was a resonance there or something. They were nails on a chalk board in that region.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you for your experience. I have a Copland cta405 tube amp and play vinyl on my Lenco L75, so they might not be for my taste. I'm OK for now with my Epos ES11s. I'm thinking about Spendor or similar. But eventually a good deal will surface.
@@Kulumuli Have a look at our DIY kits.
Any chance that you will issue the Wedge as a kit or sell the front baffle?
We are going to reexamine that model with the LGK 2.0 drivers.
Great!@@dannyrichie9743
My 2016 Acura ILX came with an open baffle 8” subwoofer mounted on the rear deck. What are your thoughts on that? Should I build a box around it? Haha
The box is the trunk bro 😂
@@Starch1b2c3d4a- unless he’s driving around with the trunk lid open all the time 😂
Can't you put some padding on the baffle to trap the reflections?
It will control some upper range ripples, but the lower ranges still come straight off of it and will still sound the same.
I'm wondering. Yes decent signal wire counts. Don't cross on top of power cables. Keep them not touching. Just like Cat-5, don't lay them on top of a florescent light. Though that braiding helps with signal bandwidth. Not strong E.M. interference.
Don't have to spend thousands of dollars to have decent cables. From the AC outlet to the internal speaker wire. That journey is important. Good Head unit or dac, good streaming, I'll won't use WiFi or Bluetooth, good preamp, good amp, good speaker wire, good speakers.
I'm ranting. What I would like to know if there is a formula or guide on the baffle size. From the edge of speaker to the edge of the baffle. I've built some open baffle. Yes front loading your bass speakers helps. I've been using a circle ⭕. For my latest projects. So they kinda look like a snow man. Sound waves are circular from the source. More or less. That changing the distance from edge to edge, even just two inches more, you can hear it. Bass, to me needs more distance then the mid bass, mids, and highs.
Maybe I'm stupid. But, no one is in my rooms listening to them. They measured good.
Personal preference.
Hello from canada! A thought for you..back in dark ages my high school gym had two vertical array speakers...horizontal dispersion minimal vertical...then in my design build life a lot of old school boxes ss well as horn arrays in theatres. Now suddenly my old scool heresy and cerwin vegas are replaced by very expensive vertical arrays and the large group of rock performers systems have changed to vertical arrays for the same reason as my old high school. Big bands can use less equipment but get better coverage. Interesting convergence of tech...what do you think...teally enjoy your tech assessments and builds.
Wouldn’t SBIR from the front wall be worse with open baffle?
Danny, please stop teasing. 🙏🏻😂 When can we get kits for the LGK open baffle speakers? Pretty please! 🙏🏻 Those look incredible! 🤤 Please tell us you are releasing them soon.
We are working on some all new LGK models that are really special. So just hang on.
U baffles of such depth give rise to quarter wavelength standing waves.
Only if you play them up too high. As frequency increases you can to go from a U shape to an L shape.
GR-Research lightning strikes again! Just super!
I thought that speaker on the desk with you was the NX Center.
One of the big problems with the open baffle not having a stiff baffle that it doesn't vibrate. I have the Spatial Audio Lab X-5 which is very good sounding speakers. The I bought the X-4. That was a big mistake. Both the wood and the metal backing are 1/2 the thickness of the X-5. Any base sound causes the baffle and speakers to vibrate and sounds horrible. The side wings can help strengthen the baffle.
Always fantastic!
Great show Danny. Going to send a link to a friend of mine. Made sense all the way through.
In the case of fullrange drivers on OB aren't reflection issues mitigated by beaming?
Not at all.
I haven't had the chance to listen good OB speakers but I listened to MBL 126 omni-directional speakers in a HI-FI show. It was so different and interesting! I noticed right away that something weird is going on when I entered that particular listening room.
Never thought about side wings in OB design, thanks for the suggestion! Thanks for the great info, really appreciate you inspiring the speaker building community. I was also thinking about combining OB speakers with strategically placed absorption material like no-res and what that does to the diffractions and reflections, both on the speaker case/baffle as well as surrounding it.
My speakers are open baffle. The tweeter is mounted top center with considerable baffle area around it. Would an absorption material around the driver covering the baffle be of help?
Only in some frequency ranges.
I'm 65 abit old school. I am curious what your instruments thing of Bose ? ( 301, Acoustic Wave)( not Acoustic mas or wave radio)
10:00 I have 5" open drivers with a crossover filter on them to mitigate that 1 khz peak (in my speakers with a woofer). I did a sweep on them and 250 hz was loud and clear from the open driver. I use them with a boxed woofer and it crosses over at about 300 hz. That's a wide band that is handled by the 5" open driver. The more med range you can get into the open driver (compared to the woofer) the cleaner the med range sounds. Med range from a woofer sucks! That's my opinion.
Good stuff as always Danny 🙂
What is that new speaker just to the left of your shoulder there?
Looks really cool 🤩
The one on the table is an older model.
Please do a video on that small OB speaker
That baby OB speaker needs to be added to your sales roster pronto.
Would match great with subs.
We are relooking at that one using the LGK 2.0 drivers.
Talk about surface reflection and he has the distance all the same from the sides to the top , big no no speaker design 101
Danny,
I been anxiously waiting for your great videos.
Why are these smaller black open baffle 3” one not on your website?
I need to know the price and specs please. Is it still being sold? Also Would it run well with Cambridge Audio AXA35?
We did that one with the LGK 1.0 drivers. When those were sold out then that model was done. We might revisit doing it again with the LGK 2.0 drivers.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks. I am looking for a small bookshelf with open baffle transparency and some fast bass-punch down to 80 to 60 hz.
I am saving up for your next version Danny 🙌
All your vids peak my interest ! ( Thanx ) - Would like Your thoughts on the Golden Ratio - when it comes to the design of a speaker
Flat Earth Society...... Proudly supporting members around the Globe.
Measurement people: prove it
GR research: you're delusional if you don't blindly trust me bro
Ha, we are actually the opposite. Please don't take my word for it. Listen for yourself.
@@dannyrichie9743 I've never heard a difference in any cables I've tested unless they were defective or complete crap like phone wire etc. I've never seen anyone else that could distinguish one cable from another in an A/B blind test and I've never seen measurements telling of any real difference, but yet people like me are the flat earthers...? I like all your other stuff but your stance on cables is unprofessional and on the level of "Trust me bro". Sure you can't do better than that?
@@Krikstar123 99 times out of 100 when people can't tell a difference it is due to the quality level of the system that they are listening on. I have also picked the differences in speaker cables blindly and on camera. It is not that hard and easy to demonstrate.
@@dannyrichie9743 Sounds interesting! Would love to see that :-) Have never found or seen anyone that could. Will you make a video on the subject one day? Could also be interesting to know more about why it can't be measured (as far as I know)
@@Krikstar123 Jay recorded the whole process and added it to his TH-cam channel.
Experience matters.
Another great discussion about speakers, I was just thinking the next step would be to have baffles that actually move Around on the side, or in the back to affect sound waves physically, and I’m just spacing out on this… Lol ……HMMMM
Speaker cables... yes. Power cables? I'm stumped by the fact people state that internal and external speaker wire should be contiguous etc.... yet then are fine having a $450 super power cord connected to a $5 GPO and house full of $0.15 / m copper 3 core and everything it entails.
I don't see it reducing any of the issues in the power system.
Power cables can make a significant difference in some applications and subtle differences in others.
NICE thank you been awhile since the last time i tuned in, beard looks good!
Do love a good open baffle
So why did KLH model 5 build their speakers with the tweeters and mids in the center of the cabinets? Would it have been better if they moved them to a side?
I don't really know much about acoustics and I assume they behave differently to microwaves but what about having the sides open and having a cone like back, it should be possible to calculate a cone that lets the different bass frequencies bounce whilst not canceling out? If anyone has a good explanation why it would or would not work I would appreciate the read
Something like:
| \
| /
That causes a megaphone effect that increases pressure and causes resonances.
Thanks for the info
GR- Do you answer comments? I like your videos a lot and I have a question that perhaps you can help me with. I just picked up an older enormous center channel speaker, a Paradigm CC-390. It's 40 in long, 15 in deep and weighs 70 lb. It's a three-way design and utilizes four 6.5 in woofers yet for some reason it's only rated down to 75 Hz. Here are the actual specifications;
The CC-390v5's listening-window response measures +2.07/-3.17 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/-15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.10/-2.89 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The -3-dB point is at 82 Hz, and the -6-dB point is at 67 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 3.92 ohms at 587 Hz and a phase angle of -63.22 degrees at 91 Hz. 44Hz (DIN).
My question is; Why would such a large center be designed with such a limited low end frequency response? This seems extremely unusual to me and very unexpected.
Center channels often utilize a sealed box to minimize gains from close proximity to walls, or cabinets that are are mounted in or on.
the reflective surface area is the same, the resonance frequency will change but the surface area available to produce reflections is exactly the same. doh.
I'm just wondering if an open baffle speaker has left and right. I mean does the long side wing always be on the same side regardless of the left and right speaker position?
The long wing works best in the middle.
You are king of open baffle development ♥️♥️♥️
Daniel, over a 20 mile wide lake how much bend or curve should there be?
Based on the earth diameter there is a mathematical formula to show how much
of the opposite shoreline should be "hidden"
(eight in / ml squared)
Ever stand on the shore of one of the great lakes and notice that you can't see the land on the other side? I have.
@@dannyrichie9743 Here's an example.
From a peak in Scotland at 3,000 ft Mont Blanc and other European mountains were photographed.
Using math and/or autocad Mont Blanc should be around 50 miles below the 'kerv'
Through testing using lasers and mirror flashes lakes and all bodies of water measure -------
In fact on a 20 Mile lake with a camera 3 ft from the surface the opposite shore should be 213 ft below a physical horizon based on the sphere math
What we do have is an optical horizon but not a physical one.
Find a flat warehouse floor of at least several hundred yards in length, put a camera on it with the lens close to the floor surface.
You will find that the bottom of objects disappear once they are several hundreds of yards out.
@@dannyrichie9743 Here's an example.
From a peak in Scotland at 3,000 ft, Mont Blanc and other European mountains were photographed at 700 plus miles away.
Using actual geometry and verified on autocad, Mont Blanc should be around 50 miles below line of sight.... !!!
Through testing using lasers and mirror reflections of sunlight lakes and all bodies of water measure ____________
What we have is an optical horizon but not a physical one.
Find a warehouse floor of at least several hundred yards in length, put a camera on it with the lens close to the floor surface.
You will find that the bottom of objects disappear once they are several hundreds of yards out.
In fact on a 20 Mile lake with a camera 3 ft from the surface the opposite shore should be 213 ft below the (her eye zone) based on geometry and math
When is GR doing an open baffle speaker? It would be such an easy thing to build… Come on, Danny!
We currently offer four different open baffle models.
@@dannyrichie9743 with no speakers in a box?
@@Starch1b2c3d4a With at least one open baffle element to full open baffle top to bottom.
@@dannyrichie9743 Well show them off. Your website pics of it are lacking
Is that a LGK open baffle prototype?
It is an old model.
You don't realize that some people can't hear the difference. To me the biggest is clean power
Well, it is as always a question of personal taste and personal preference: Forward, powerful, close and engageing presence and or a distant, weak, deep soundstage.
Hello Danny, don't let you making crazy or something like that. "Just buy them a sheep and ask them to make a sweater of it"?. They don't know what they asking.
I like your video's very much.
Am a carpenter and my teacher was a church organ builder.
I wish you succes of what you are doing.
If someone can actually demonstrate to me the science of power cables ACTUALLY making a difference to the sound and it isn't just there being something wrong with one of the cables, I might believe it even if it's a measurable but not noticable difference. Like I was able to demonstrate to myself the actual science of signal interconnect leads sounding different by playing around with cable of vastly different capacitance, resistance, and inductance, changing the natural RC/RL filtering characteristics of the interconnect. This produced wildly different sound simply by changing the RCA analogue leads
Thanks 🙏 😊
Great video Danny 👍, but black on black is very hard to see. A brighter background would be more aesthetic
I just lost one of my Carver Amazing Platinum speakers to a catastrophic amp meltdown. Heartbroken doesn’t describe it as I loved the sound. Box speakers just can’t compete. I’m planning to give the Caladans a try as soon as I pay the repair bill off for the Sunfire that went nuclear. 🤦♂️
Danny, I thought Flat is Good! 🤭😁😉
lmao how dare you Mars is a rectangle and chocolate seen through a telescope you just see a distorted end so it looks round lol
Great Video!
So engineers are flat earthers too?
Calling someone a flat earther refers to someone that holds to a belief and refuses to look at or do any real science.
Voxativ made a speaker with a wide baffle. It wasn't open baffle, maybe someone saw that and misunderstood? 😂
Just after I watched this video TH-cam suggested I watch "Alpha Labs - Explaining the HUGE Cable Test! More than 70 Cables!"
I'd give a direct link but I noticed that when I put a link in a comment (even if it is another TH-cam video) my comment magically disappears.
Wait, really? Testing: th-cam.com/video/dQw4w9WgXcQ/w-d-xo.html
Confirmed, disappears for me too. (Says '1 reply' here but can't expand to see my prior reply). Probably anti-spam.
Perhaps people could just do v=dQw4w9WgXcQ , and then people would get the point and know what to do.
I think a few month ago on one of the small speakers you were discussing I made a comment about it being an open baffle 😁
Nice to see the little "wedgie" taking shape..