The point of using lower ISOs to get cleaner shadows is not to then lift them in post... If you're going to do that, its functionally the same as just shooting at a higher iso. The point is if you have a scene that has lots of darkness that doesn't have highlights you need to worry about retaining, you increase light hitting the sensor as much as you can, and drop the ISO as low as you can to get your good exposure, which reduces the noise signal level relative to the signal of your image, cleaning up the shadows. If you've given the camera as much light as you can, and you can still shoot at ISO 1250 (lowest ISO setting for the higher sensitivity circuit of the sensor) without clipping anything, then you should shoot at 1250 for the cleanest results. When you bring that image down in post to match ISO 400 exposure, you should see cleaner shadows.
Maybe in the case ISO 1250 but if I had to choose between 400 and 800, I'd go for 400 and raise the shadows a bit... 🤷🏻♂️ Edit: I'll pin your comment because ISO is complicated. 😅
@JorisHermans you could also shoot 800 and lower the highlights a bit and you'd have the same image. The sensor only has two sensitivity modes. It doesn't matter what ISO you're set to between 100-1000, the sensor sees exactly the same image, the iso setting is merely an exposure offset applied in post, you won't gain or lose any additional information until you go into the second sensitivity circuit from 1250.
@DiodeFilms Then why is the ISO 800 image a lot noisier than ISO 400? For example: Lens wide open, ISO 800 doesn't look great. If I just underexpose a tad and switch to ISO 400 and then lift the shadows or the whole exposure a bit to match ISO 800, the image looks a lot cleaner.
But it doesn't matter that's it's the same noise. What matters is that it's multiplied by two, right? More noise at ISO800. So, ISO400 with slightly raised shadows/exposure in post looks cleaner than if it was shot in ISO800. That's why I said that sometimes underexposing a bit and then raising the shadows in post might give you a cleaner/better result because slightly raising the exposure in post does not double the noise, right? And if, at a lower ISO, you get more info in the shadows, then it's easier to raise the exposure in post. Or am I seeing that wrong?
This is probably the best explanation of some of the more complex technicalities of modern ISO. Terms, such as, "dual-gain ISO" versus "2 native ISO" are very difficult to understand, let alone explain. This was super informative and digestible. I've been following your channel since the pandemic. It's incredible to watch you progress through all this. I'm learning with you! I don't think Gerald Undone could have explained this in such an easy-to-follow way. You rock!!!
You should also be careful with the term Dual Gain ISO, because it can be confused with Dual Gain Output quite easily. Which is probably the reason why most manufacturers use the term Dual Native ISO (as BMD does in the Pyxis Manual for instance) or Dual Base ISO as is commonly used by Sony.
Unfortunately this kind of misconception is not at all rare. In Beginners and seasoned DoPs alike. Which is why it is always a good idea to read the manual. The Pyxis Manual states: Dual Native ISO Your Blackmagic PYXIS 6K has a dual native ISO of 400 and 3,200, which means that the sensor is optimized for shooting in both low light conditions, as well as bright daylight. Adjust the ISO for the varying lighting conditions, and the dual native ISO feature will operate in the background to make sure your footage is clean and has minimal noise at low and high ISO settings. When the ISO setting is between 100 and 1,000 the native ISO of 400 is used as a reference point. The ISO range between 1,250 and 25,600 uses the native ISO of 3,200 as a reference. If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens' iris so that you can select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results.
I learned that the best iso values to use are 400 and 1250. That’s what I use and it’s also what provides the best color rendition. If I can’t get what I need with those, then my lighting is off.
Just got my BM micro studio g2, a few weeks ago... First real camera and learned this right away... Sometimes it's better to not think you know stuff 😅
Thank you sir! I used ISO 100 i bright sunlight with a VND filter and the footage was extremely beautiful! Also ISO 5000 is the most even in DR, but everyone knows it's not the better or cleaner ISO. Thank you for proving that ISO 1250 has always been the best second gain ISO to shoot in.
Also we use focus peaking to see the noise... i will also add no one seems to use the shutter angle in combo with iso... this makes a huge difference. (maybe sometime shoot at 29.97)☺ The point is people now have this ability to use all these things to achieve great image quality so have a play to find what works... Thanks
Hats off to black magic for providing that chart. I wish all brands would do this for their cameras as it is a great visual representation of each ISO. Many thanks for this video!
Oh this makes a lot of sense now! So if you’re shooting in low light and you want more detail and less noise in the shadows it makes more sense to go for 1250 as opposed to 3200 which is simply the recommended value based strictly on **EVEN** highlight and lowlight Noise Ratio. Got it!!! This video is important! Thanks for sharing!!
In theory you could also monitor in 3200 but expose for 1250, while protecting your highlights as best you can. The result should be the same, wenn shooting BRAW.
Also calling it „even noise ratio between highlight and lowlight“ is worded in a very confusing manner. The „native“ ISO usually has the optimal distribution of stops (latitude) above and below middle grey, according to the manufacturer. Noise should not appear in your highlights as they are more or less by definition furthest away from your noise floor.
Amazingly informative. I never ran into issues though because my EVA1 dual native ISO bases (800, 2500) are also the starting point for each of the two gain sensors.
Yes but i rarely use it unless i can exclude any highlights from the shot. It’s so easy to clip the bright regions in iso 1250… Same for iso 1000, it’s for a very specific type of shot, a lot of highlights and not a lot of contrast, the dark portion of the frame will be very noisy
I just add some more lights and shoot at 400 for really clean images then lower the ISO or exposure as needed in post to make the scenes darker. But I guess for run and gun scenarios one does not have time to play around with lights, but there are many camera more suited for that type of environment. I would not pick these Blackmagic cameras for that kind of work.
Nice video and explanation, that was something that i always check on my cameras, the cleanest ISOs and when they do the jump from "low native ISO" to "high native ISO", for example right now im currently working with a nikon Z8 and in rec.709 the jump is in ISO 500, and in log rec.2020 the jump is in ISO 4000, but nikon as other companies doesnt put this in the specification on the manual, so i learned to verify always with the cap on the lenses, activate the focus assist and check how the focus assist "blinks" in diferent ISOs, but this about that a "worse" ISO is better for highlights for example was something that i never thought, but again, the companies dont put those charts on the f*** manual.
The PYXIS looks like an awesome camera. I've been shooting on a C70 for 4 years and I'm still learning how the DGO sensor works. And now I've picked up a Canon R5C and it's got Dual Base ISO and I understand it's totally different than a Dual Gain Output but I've got to do more research so I know the best ways to use it in different lighting situations. But I really liked the way you explained how the sensor in the PYXIS works. 🙏
Using the term dual gain sensor for the Pyxis‘ sensor is unnecessarily confusing. The manual states „Dual Native ISO“. As far as I understand it the difference is, while both sensor designs technically have two independent readout circuits, Dual Native ISO let‘s you choose or with regards to BMDs cameras chooses for you which circuit is used. Dual Gain Output Sensors on the other hand use both circuits at the same time, therefore extending Dynamic Range. Like a stacked exposure in photography, but real time.
I would love to say thank you so much for explaining clearly. I wanted to know exactly what it was. Thank you so much.. I have always been curious about why Sony camera video footage is so clean compared to BMPCC.
Even taking all this into account, the Pyxis along with the BMCC 6k is noisy as hell. Also thank you for the chart you just clarified something. ISO 400 (+0db) is essentially ISO 100 for all other cameras with a standard picture profile. Log profiles then raise the ISO 100 exposure by 2, 2,5 or even up to 3 stops to map out the shadows properly to the LOG curve, but the sensor is essentially driven at that ISO. This is why going below the minimum ISO level reduces the Dynamic range by shifting the entire dynamic range below "IRE 0". But I digress. Here's direct comparison to Sony Slog3 and Panasonic Vlog. This camera's performance seems to me to match the Sony a6700 in noise performance and dynamic range. ISO 400 (+0db) = ISO 800 for Slog3 & ISO 640 for VLOG ISO 800 (+6db) = ISO 1600 for Slog3 & ISO 1250 for VLOG ISO 1250 (+10db) = ISO 2500 for Slog3 & ISO 1600 for VLOG ISO 1600 (+12db) = ISO 3200 for Slog3 & ISO 2000 for VLOG ISO 3200 (+18db) = ISO 6400 for Slog3 & ISO 4000 for VLOG ISO 6400(+24db) = ISO 12800 for Slog3 & ISO 8000 for VLOG
Wow. I didn't know this. Thank you for the explanation. I was just wondering between iso 100 and 1250 what would be better in a low light situation without any highlights. Iso 100 has 9.8 stops below vs 7.9 at iso 1250.
1250 because it has higher gain versus noise level being at the higher gain circuit. 100 has incredibly low gain so you would have to up the gain so much in post which introduces a lot of noise. Unless you actually want the scene to be pitch black which you probably don't. However I shoot mostly at 400 in low light but I make sure to use a lot of lighting when doing so. Only rarely do I shoot at 1250 if in a hurry or for whatever reason not able to light the scene properly. These cameras are not made to be shot in darkness, you have to light properly and then lower the gain in post if you want it to look darker. I shoot it brighter at 400 then lower the ISO in DaVinci as needed in post.
Great explanation. The thing is all sensors work this way. BMD always releases their dynamic range charts with any camera release, but I suspect a lot of ppl don't pay much attention to them. This was also an issue with Pocket 4K, 6K and 6K Pro shooters too. Honestly, I think BMD could do a better job at explaining the DR dichotomy better to customers other than just releasing a chart that most people have no idea what it means. So, basically, BMD cams (like many others) have a set amount of dynamic range. Each ISO value (or gain) adjusts the ratio of range between shadows and highlights. Plan and adjust accordingly. You'll probably have to carry that stupid chart with you until you've memorized it. 😂 Hmmm, me thinks BMD should put that chart on a screen in their OS so it's always reference ready. 🤔🤔🤔🤔
The most important thing I learned about cinematography is that high iso values are for outdoors with strong light for the best dynamic range and low iso values are for indoors with artificial light for a clean image. Always use indoor lights. Filming in total darkness is not cinematography. So mabe iso 3200 is for daylight and iso 400 is for darker interiors.
@@AndersonLasso You should check your Manual (English pages 54 and following ISO). It explains Dual Native ISO and also contains a Dynamic Range Chart for the Pocket 6K/Pro. Differences in Latitude below middle grey seem to be negligible (0.1 Stop).
What you experienced in the camera is common knowledge that you don't see with camera with autobase selection because hybrid for exemple take the all iso from the first set of gain, and switch to the second at the second native iso. The two gain are two iso structure that work like in photo, the lowest iso of each has the less noise. Don't know why tho you never came accross that, for exemple canon shows on certain images how work the triple iso base so for the C400/C80 the 3 base are 800/3200/12800 and from each selected base iso the iso with the less noise is 100/400/1600
Hi. Very nicely explained. Although I always used 1250 ISO in the second range (because it was the clearest) but I didn’t know that 3200 is about same latitude of highlights and shadows. Thanks I will steal it and put it into my next video about PYXIS 😂, cheers!
All manufacturers do this. A sensor is an electrical system and is only clean at 0db but most sensors are at 0db between 320 and 400iso equivalent. Everything else is marketing.
Absolutely fantastic info!! I have pondered the noise levels on numerous occasions whilst shooting on gigs. Often giving up on low light scenarios and opting my Panasonic s5iix in .. which I also love btw... But this gives me a broader understanding of how I can use the iso settings for the scenarios.. amazing and thank fuck it wasn't just me 😂😂😂😂
Many of us have been telling me for years to shoot at ISO 1250😂 So many people could’ve understood would you are explaining here. The only difference from what I did, was continue to shoot at ISO 400 because it’s was good enough with plenty of light. I will start using ISO 100, but I stopped shooting ISO 3200 very soon after o determined was undoubtedly more nosey.
Salut Joris, could you explain me why on the Y-Axis is "0" not a fixed value. I mean, why the range of Stop Above and Stop Below are moving down relative of a 0 ? Thanks man, BTW you are trop fort :)
Well, I think that line is the exposure for middle grey. So, so if at ISO 400 you expose for middle grey, the line is at 0. If you switch to ISO 800, the line moves down which means that your middle grey which was exposed perfectly at ISO 400, is now overexposed by 1 stop (dotted line). (Edit, so, if you want the same exposure for middle grey at ISO800, you'd have to underexpose by one stop.)
Yeah but you will clip the highlights much more easily at these two ISO's that's why 400 is recommended. It's the sweet spot between noise level and latitude.
Quick question: does this matter when shooting in raw? Yes you can change the iso in post, but does it affect how the files behave when the sliders are shifted. ?
It should mainly help with exposure. You could technically shoot in 3200 while exposing for 1250. Monitoring in 1250 would lead most people to increase their exposure by at least one stop which in turn should keep your relevant data above the noisefloor and thereby increase noise performance.
This is still a huge chuck of user info that needed to be highlighted in the black magic quick start, manual and maybe the CEO’s video presentation when he introduces new Black magic gear on the BMD site.. Just saying ….to avoid unnecessary confusion
@@JorisHermans to be fair you can find the dynamic range chart and an explanation of Dual Native ISO on their website as well as in their manuals. The only problem I see is them calling it Dual Gain ISO on the website and Dual Native ISO in the Manual.
Copy paste BMD Website „Dual Gain ISO for Exceptional Low Light Performance In digital film ISO is a measurement of the image sensor’s sensitivity to light. This means the higher the ISO number the more sensitivity to light so it’s possible to shoot using natural light even at night! The Pocket Cinema Cameras feature dual gain ISO up to 25,600, which means they're optimized to minimize grain or noise in images, while maintaining the full dynamic range of the sensor. The native ISO of 400 is ideal for scenes with on-set lighting. The secondary high base ISO of 3200 is perfect when shooting in dimly lit environments. The gain is set automatically as you adjust the ISO setting, so it's easy to capture great images when you don’t have time to set up lights.“
Copy paste from the manual: „Dual Native ISO Your Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera has a dual native ISO of 400 and 3,200, which means that the sensor is optimized for shooting in both low light conditions, as well as bright daylight. Adjust the ISO for the varying lighting conditions, and the dual native ISO feature will operate in the background to make sure your footage is clean and has minimal noise at low and high ISO settings. When the ISO setting is between 100 and 1,000 the native ISO of 400 is used as a reference point. The ISO range between 1,250 and 25,600 uses the native ISO of 3,200 as a reference. If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens' iris so that you can select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results. These charts show the relationship between the ISO selection and dynamic range allocation.“
A Nice Explanation Joris! You really Explained it the right way! I love your videos, as they are so funny and also imformative. BTW: About a week ago I sent you an email, from me - Jibreel ( using my dad's account ) sent you an email hoping for feedback pls?
Yeah it won't necessarily look better since it's very easy to clip highlights at 1250. It all depends on what you're shooting. I shoot most anything at 400 and add lights as needed.
They have been doing it this way this the Pocket 4K.🤷♂️ On the Venice you can select your Base ISO manually and choose your „recording“ ISO afterwards. They even allow you to shoot identical ISOs let‘s say ISO 1000 at each Base ISO, yielding different noise performance and Latitude above and below middle grey. Maybe Blackmagic thought this was was easier.
@@JorisHermanscan you explain via text to him? Others might find the extra explanation helpful. Great video btw. This is the best video I've seen on this topic
This is a cinema camera period so until Arri and Red do it we can’t hold our breath. It makes plenty of sense but for a solo run and fun shooter not so much, I guess. Depends on what you shoot, right? With the money you save maybe buy the DJI Focus Pro. My only problem with the camera was the monitor but now that BMB and Portkeys have released USB-C monitors that control the camera I’m good with the Pyxis aside from it not doing 120fps in 4K 😡 😤
@@JorisHermans as does Blackmagic Design. They are all over the place. On the Website they call it Dual Gain ISO and name ISO 400 as the „native“ ISO and ISO 3200 as „the secondary base ISO“. The info is there though.🤷♂️ I personally prefer not using the term Dual Gain ISO because it can be confused with Dual Gain Output to easily
their horrible customer service and warranties keeps me far away from those cams. i have 2 dead ursas cinema 4ks that they refused to fix for same issue in less then 2 months of getting service done. they always say failed sensor when their cameras start failing with short sensor life hours. plenty of other people reporting same issue
@@bob8619 I dunno, but I'm guessing the training wheels, those being autofocus and ibis. Seems that is the common complaints, so many people can't be bothered putting in the time to learn how to focus a lens these days or hold their camera still or use a tripod or monopod. Or light a scene or basically anything you normally do when filming. They just wanna run and gun at ISO 12800 with autofocus engaged and throw a factory lut on it in post.
It's because people don't realize that cameras made for cinema are not meant for videography (and vice versa). Cinema is always manual and not assisted
@@bob8619 if that’s your thing that’s your thing broooooos and I agree with what you’re saying but don’t tell right you are going to shoot a movie with wanna be arri right now, when you know you going outside to shoot content for girl friend running around! Quick turnaround projects that were the market is that’s it get with the times fast turn around who said I don’t know how to manual focus or all that other nonsense, you guys brought up lighting etc! GET with the times all the influencers on TH-cam are they shooting a movie they all went out and shoot forest and leaves lol Get outta here and be Facts! All these influencers you follow all of them using LiDAR lol stop being hypocritical
![EVERYONE is WRONG About the Blackmagic PYXIS 6K! [Review]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QgVw4oq8Wj8/mqdefault.jpg)
The point of using lower ISOs to get cleaner shadows is not to then lift them in post... If you're going to do that, its functionally the same as just shooting at a higher iso. The point is if you have a scene that has lots of darkness that doesn't have highlights you need to worry about retaining, you increase light hitting the sensor as much as you can, and drop the ISO as low as you can to get your good exposure, which reduces the noise signal level relative to the signal of your image, cleaning up the shadows.
If you've given the camera as much light as you can, and you can still shoot at ISO 1250 (lowest ISO setting for the higher sensitivity circuit of the sensor) without clipping anything, then you should shoot at 1250 for the cleanest results. When you bring that image down in post to match ISO 400 exposure, you should see cleaner shadows.
Maybe in the case ISO 1250 but if I had to choose between 400 and 800, I'd go for 400 and raise the shadows a bit... 🤷🏻♂️ Edit: I'll pin your comment because ISO is complicated. 😅
@JorisHermans you could also shoot 800 and lower the highlights a bit and you'd have the same image. The sensor only has two sensitivity modes. It doesn't matter what ISO you're set to between 100-1000, the sensor sees exactly the same image, the iso setting is merely an exposure offset applied in post, you won't gain or lose any additional information until you go into the second sensitivity circuit from 1250.
@DiodeFilms Then why is the ISO 800 image a lot noisier than ISO 400? For example: Lens wide open, ISO 800 doesn't look great. If I just underexpose a tad and switch to ISO 400 and then lift the shadows or the whole exposure a bit to match ISO 800, the image looks a lot cleaner.
@@JorisHermans because 800 is the 400 signal multiplied by 2, so the noise is also doubled, but it's the same noise that's in 400.
But it doesn't matter that's it's the same noise. What matters is that it's multiplied by two, right? More noise at ISO800. So, ISO400 with slightly raised shadows/exposure in post looks cleaner than if it was shot in ISO800. That's why I said that sometimes underexposing a bit and then raising the shadows in post might give you a cleaner/better result because slightly raising the exposure in post does not double the noise, right? And if, at a lower ISO, you get more info in the shadows, then it's easier to raise the exposure in post. Or am I seeing that wrong?
This is probably the best explanation of some of the more complex technicalities of modern ISO. Terms, such as, "dual-gain ISO" versus "2 native ISO" are very difficult to understand, let alone explain. This was super informative and digestible. I've been following your channel since the pandemic. It's incredible to watch you progress through all this. I'm learning with you! I don't think Gerald Undone could have explained this in such an easy-to-follow way. You rock!!!
You should also be careful with the term Dual Gain ISO, because it can be confused with Dual Gain Output quite easily. Which is probably the reason why most manufacturers use the term Dual Native ISO (as BMD does in the Pyxis Manual for instance) or Dual Base ISO as is commonly used by Sony.
On the 6k OG have been using ISO 400 for daylight and 1250 for night time. Been getting the best quality, my Pyxis just arrived! Can’t wait to try it.
You don’t realize how important this video was! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Unfortunately this kind of misconception is not at all rare. In Beginners and seasoned DoPs alike. Which is why it is always a good idea to read the manual.
The Pyxis Manual states:
Dual Native ISO
Your Blackmagic PYXIS 6K has a dual native ISO of 400 and 3,200, which means that the sensor is optimized for shooting in both low light conditions, as well as bright daylight.
Adjust the ISO for the varying lighting conditions, and the dual native ISO feature will operate in the background to make sure your footage is clean and has minimal noise at low and high ISO settings.
When the ISO setting is between 100 and 1,000 the native ISO of 400 is used as a reference point. The ISO range between 1,250 and 25,600 uses the native ISO of 3,200 as a reference. If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens' iris so that you can select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results.
Great explanation, you just gained a follower. Gonna add this video to my ever increasing "Pyxis 101" playlist
I learned that the best iso values to use are 400 and 1250. That’s what I use and it’s also what provides the best color rendition. If I can’t get what I need with those, then my lighting is off.
Lifesaver!!! Amazing video! Thanks again man you just saved me more headaches.
Finally, I can understand this now. I’ve been confused with this for years, really thanks dude!
You're not alone... 💯
So glad you talked about this! There's been so much about only 400 or 3200. Always great to learn more about sensor capabilities as a DP
Knew this since BMPCC4k but glad you're sharing the wisdom :P I think all blackmagic cameras are like this (the ones with iso 400 and 3200 "native")
Thanks for clarifying this. And you clarify this topic so honestly. I have not heard anyone else explain this and it's been a big oversight. Wow
Just got my BM micro studio g2, a few weeks ago... First real camera and learned this right away... Sometimes it's better to not think you know stuff 😅
Thank you sir! I used ISO 100 i bright sunlight with a VND filter and the footage was extremely beautiful! Also ISO 5000 is the most even in DR, but everyone knows it's not the better or cleaner ISO. Thank you for proving that ISO 1250 has always been the best second gain ISO to shoot in.
For those who (like me) don't read manuals 😅 Hope it helps! 🙏🏻🔥
This is a fantastic explanation! I've been shooting on the full-frame BMCC and have noticed 1000 or 1250 to be more usable than 3200. Thank you again!
Also we use focus peaking to see the noise... i will also add no one seems to use the shutter angle in combo with iso... this makes a huge difference. (maybe sometime shoot at 29.97)☺
The point is people now have this ability to use all these things to achieve great image quality so have a play to find what works... Thanks
Hats off to black magic for providing that chart. I wish all brands would do this for their cameras as it is a great visual representation of each ISO. Many thanks for this video!
Where's the chart?
Oh this makes a lot of sense now! So if you’re shooting in low light and you want more detail and less noise in the shadows it makes more sense to go for 1250 as opposed to 3200 which is simply the recommended value based strictly on **EVEN** highlight and lowlight Noise Ratio. Got it!!! This video is important! Thanks for sharing!!
In theory you could also monitor in 3200 but expose for 1250, while protecting your highlights as best you can. The result should be the same, wenn shooting BRAW.
Also calling it „even noise ratio between highlight and lowlight“ is worded in a very confusing manner. The „native“ ISO usually has the optimal distribution of stops (latitude) above and below middle grey, according to the manufacturer.
Noise should not appear in your highlights as they are more or less by definition furthest away from your noise floor.
This is a great explanation. its an important distinction and I now understand it.
Amazingly informative. I never ran into issues though because my EVA1 dual native ISO bases (800, 2500) are also the starting point for each of the two gain sensors.
Very well explained both cameras are amzing
💯💥
@@JorisHermansAny plans of giving away a camera which you feel would be helpful for film makers.
ISO 1250 is the cleanest for low light shoot. Even if you shoot at 3200, it is better you change to 1250 when colouring in Davinci Resolve.
Yes but i rarely use it unless i can exclude any highlights from the shot. It’s so easy to clip the bright regions in iso 1250…
Same for iso 1000, it’s for a very specific type of shot, a lot of highlights and not a lot of contrast, the dark portion of the frame will be very noisy
I just add some more lights and shoot at 400 for really clean images then lower the ISO or exposure as needed in post to make the scenes darker. But I guess for run and gun scenarios one does not have time to play around with lights, but there are many camera more suited for that type of environment. I would not pick these Blackmagic cameras for that kind of work.
Nice video and explanation, that was something that i always check on my cameras, the cleanest ISOs and when they do the jump from "low native ISO" to "high native ISO", for example right now im currently working with a nikon Z8 and in rec.709 the jump is in ISO 500, and in log rec.2020 the jump is in ISO 4000, but nikon as other companies doesnt put this in the specification on the manual, so i learned to verify always with the cap on the lenses, activate the focus assist and check how the focus assist "blinks" in diferent ISOs, but this about that a "worse" ISO is better for highlights for example was something that i never thought, but again, the companies dont put those charts on the f*** manual.
I was excited that BM said they are looking into adding AF. Although for what I need I think a C80 or hybrid would be better. Ex 6K G2 owner.
WOW a must watch video!
The PYXIS looks like an awesome camera. I've been shooting on a C70 for 4 years and I'm still learning how the DGO sensor works. And now I've picked up a Canon R5C and it's got Dual Base ISO and I understand it's totally different than a Dual Gain Output but I've got to do more research so I know the best ways to use it in different lighting situations. But I really liked the way you explained how the sensor in the PYXIS works. 🙏
Using the term dual gain sensor for the Pyxis‘ sensor is unnecessarily confusing. The manual states „Dual Native ISO“. As far as I understand it the difference is, while both sensor designs technically have two independent readout circuits, Dual Native ISO let‘s you choose or with regards to BMDs cameras chooses for you which circuit is used. Dual Gain Output Sensors on the other hand use both circuits at the same time, therefore extending Dynamic Range. Like a stacked exposure in photography, but real time.
I would love to say thank you so much for explaining clearly. I wanted to know exactly what it was. Thank you so much.. I have always been curious about why Sony camera video footage is so clean compared to BMPCC.
Great video! The information was needed.
Thanks for the value
Awesome video! Super helpful 🤩
thanks for this mate!
Great video!
Great explanation
Excellent video. 👍👍👍👍
Even taking all this into account, the Pyxis along with the BMCC 6k is noisy as hell.
Also thank you for the chart you just clarified something.
ISO 400 (+0db) is essentially ISO 100 for all other cameras with a standard picture profile. Log profiles then raise the ISO 100 exposure by 2, 2,5 or even up to 3 stops to map out the shadows properly to the LOG curve, but the sensor is essentially driven at that ISO. This is why going below the minimum ISO level reduces the Dynamic range by shifting the entire dynamic range below "IRE 0". But I digress. Here's direct comparison to Sony Slog3 and Panasonic Vlog. This camera's performance seems to me to match the Sony a6700 in noise performance and dynamic range.
ISO 400 (+0db) = ISO 800 for Slog3 & ISO 640 for VLOG
ISO 800 (+6db) = ISO 1600 for Slog3 & ISO 1250 for VLOG
ISO 1250 (+10db) = ISO 2500 for Slog3 & ISO 1600 for VLOG
ISO 1600 (+12db) = ISO 3200 for Slog3 & ISO 2000 for VLOG
ISO 3200 (+18db) = ISO 6400 for Slog3 & ISO 4000 for VLOG
ISO 6400(+24db) = ISO 12800 for Slog3 & ISO 8000 for VLOG
Like always... great video!
Great information! Thanks
Wow. I didn't know this. Thank you for the explanation. I was just wondering between iso 100 and 1250 what would be better in a low light situation without any highlights. Iso 100 has 9.8 stops below vs 7.9 at iso 1250.
1250 because it has higher gain versus noise level being at the higher gain circuit. 100 has incredibly low gain so you would have to up the gain so much in post which introduces a lot of noise. Unless you actually want the scene to be pitch black which you probably don't. However I shoot mostly at 400 in low light but I make sure to use a lot of lighting when doing so. Only rarely do I shoot at 1250 if in a hurry or for whatever reason not able to light the scene properly. These cameras are not made to be shot in darkness, you have to light properly and then lower the gain in post if you want it to look darker. I shoot it brighter at 400 then lower the ISO in DaVinci as needed in post.
Great explanation.
The thing is all sensors work this way. BMD always releases their dynamic range charts with any camera release, but I suspect a lot of ppl don't pay much attention to them. This was also an issue with Pocket 4K, 6K and 6K Pro shooters too.
Honestly, I think BMD could do a better job at explaining the DR dichotomy better to customers other than just releasing a chart that most people have no idea what it means.
So, basically, BMD cams (like many others) have a set amount of dynamic range. Each ISO value (or gain) adjusts the ratio of range between shadows and highlights. Plan and adjust accordingly.
You'll probably have to carry that stupid chart with you until you've memorized it. 😂
Hmmm, me thinks BMD should put that chart on a screen in their OS so it's always reference ready. 🤔🤔🤔🤔
The most important thing I learned about cinematography is that high iso values are for outdoors with strong light for the best dynamic range and low iso values are for indoors with artificial light for a clean image. Always use indoor lights. Filming in total darkness is not cinematography. So mabe iso 3200 is for daylight and iso 400 is for darker interiors.
Thank you for this!
🤯🤯🤯 mind blown!! What I always wondered why my 3200 is more noisier than 400 🙃.
Great video! As you said, I always try to prefer 3200 ISO in the upper cycle but could never get into it. Now I know why, thanks a lot 😊🤩
this is the first time that this low light stuff makes sense, thank you!!! one question! is the same for BMCC 6k pro no FF?
Yeah, I think so but the actual numbers/stops per ISO might be different.
@@JorisHermans thanks
@@AndersonLasso You should check your Manual (English pages 54 and following ISO). It explains Dual Native ISO and also contains a Dynamic Range Chart for the Pocket 6K/Pro. Differences in Latitude below middle grey seem to be negligible (0.1 Stop).
love this
nice video thanks brother
Great vid. Is there a website where I can view this chart for other cameras and camera manufacturers?
What you experienced in the camera is common knowledge that you don't see with camera with autobase selection because hybrid for exemple take the all iso from the first set of gain, and switch to the second at the second native iso.
The two gain are two iso structure that work like in photo, the lowest iso of each has the less noise.
Don't know why tho you never came accross that, for exemple canon shows on certain images how work the triple iso base so for the C400/C80 the 3 base are 800/3200/12800 and from each selected base iso the iso with the less noise is 100/400/1600
nice info!
Hi. Very nicely explained. Although I always used 1250 ISO in the second range (because it was the clearest) but I didn’t know that 3200 is about same latitude of highlights and shadows. Thanks I will steal it and put it into my next video about PYXIS 😂, cheers!
All manufacturers do this. A sensor is an electrical system and is only clean at 0db but most sensors are at 0db between 320 and 400iso equivalent. Everything else is marketing.
Absolutely fantastic info!! I have pondered the noise levels on numerous occasions whilst shooting on gigs. Often giving up on low light scenarios and opting my Panasonic s5iix in .. which I also love btw... But this gives me a broader understanding of how I can use the iso settings for the scenarios.. amazing and thank fuck it wasn't just me 😂😂😂😂
How did you stabilize your footage when using Sigma 28-70mm? Is the lens focus by wire or linear focus? If focus by wire, how do you focus?
Many of us have been telling me for years to shoot at ISO 1250😂 So many people could’ve understood would you are explaining here.
The only difference from what I did, was continue to shoot at ISO 400 because it’s was good enough with plenty of light.
I will start using ISO 100, but I stopped shooting ISO 3200 very soon after o determined was undoubtedly more nosey.
Salut Joris, could you explain me why on the Y-Axis is "0" not a fixed value.
I mean, why the range of Stop Above and Stop Below are moving down relative of a 0 ?
Thanks man, BTW you are trop fort :)
Well, I think that line is the exposure for middle grey. So, so if at ISO 400 you expose for middle grey, the line is at 0. If you switch to ISO 800, the line moves down which means that your middle grey which was exposed perfectly at ISO 400, is now overexposed by 1 stop (dotted line). (Edit, so, if you want the same exposure for middle grey at ISO800, you'd have to underexpose by one stop.)
What's the dynamic range of the camera?
Anyone knows how this translates into an FX30/FX3 and how can I get a dual gain sensor chart like this for those cameras?
You will get the cleanest ISOs at 100 and 1250. This is where the noise is the cleanest.
Yeah but you will clip the highlights much more easily at these two ISO's that's why 400 is recommended. It's the sweet spot between noise level and latitude.
Quick question: does this matter when shooting in raw? Yes you can change the iso in post, but does it affect how the files behave when the sliders are shifted. ?
It should mainly help with exposure. You could technically shoot in 3200 while exposing for 1250. Monitoring in 1250 would lead most people to increase their exposure by at least one stop which in turn should keep your relevant data above the noisefloor and thereby increase noise performance.
@ thank you
This is still a huge chuck of user info that needed to be highlighted in the black magic quick start, manual and maybe the CEO’s video presentation when he introduces new Black magic gear on the BMD site..
Just saying ….to avoid unnecessary confusion
I agree 💯
@@JorisHermans to be fair you can find the dynamic range chart and an explanation of Dual Native ISO on their website as well as in their manuals. The only problem I see is them calling it Dual Gain ISO on the website and Dual Native ISO in the Manual.
Maybe they should start doing Camera tutorials as well especially Software tutorials though.🤔
Copy paste BMD Website
„Dual Gain ISO for Exceptional Low Light Performance
In digital film ISO is a measurement of the image sensor’s sensitivity to light. This means the higher the ISO number the more sensitivity to light so it’s possible to shoot using natural light even at night! The Pocket Cinema Cameras feature dual gain ISO up to 25,600, which means they're optimized to minimize grain or noise in images, while maintaining the full dynamic range of the sensor. The native ISO of 400 is ideal for scenes with on-set lighting. The secondary high base ISO of 3200 is perfect when shooting in dimly lit environments. The gain is set automatically as you adjust the ISO setting, so it's easy to capture great images when you don’t have time to set up lights.“
Copy paste from the manual:
„Dual Native ISO
Your Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera has a dual native ISO of 400 and 3,200, which means that the sensor is optimized for shooting in both low light conditions, as well as bright daylight.
Adjust the ISO for the varying lighting conditions, and the dual native ISO feature will operate in the background to make sure your footage is clean and has minimal noise at low and high ISO settings.
When the ISO setting is between 100 and 1,000 the native ISO of 400 is used as a reference point. The ISO range between 1,250 and 25,600 uses the native ISO of 3,200 as a reference. If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens' iris so that you can select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results.
These charts show the relationship between the ISO selection and dynamic range allocation.“
A Nice Explanation Joris! You really Explained it the right way! I love your videos, as they are so funny and also imformative.
BTW: About a week ago I sent you an email, from me - Jibreel ( using my dad's account ) sent you an email hoping for feedback pls?
And the iso1250 looks better than 3200 "native" as u said?
ISO is not to get light going to the sensor. It´s just to get more detail in highlight or shadows.
Not „better“ just less noisy.
Yeah it won't necessarily look better since it's very easy to clip highlights at 1250. It all depends on what you're shooting. I shoot most anything at 400 and add lights as needed.
Great video. Sounds like a mistake and covered it with a confusing explanation. 2nd base iso should be cleaner than the value just before it 100%.
They have been doing it this way this the Pocket 4K.🤷♂️
On the Venice you can select your Base ISO manually and choose your „recording“ ISO afterwards. They even allow you to shoot identical ISOs let‘s say ISO 1000 at each Base ISO, yielding different noise performance and Latitude above and below middle grey. Maybe Blackmagic thought this was was easier.
Are you filming yourself with Sony A7s3 or Canon M50?
A7S3
So if i understood, the Iso400 is better in lowlight than the 3200?😂
You didn't understand...
@@JorisHermanscan you explain via text to him? Others might find the extra explanation helpful. Great video btw. This is the best video I've seen on this topic
Does the bmpcc 6k g2 has the same dual native iso?
Same ISO range, yes. Marginally less latitude below middle grey.
No autofocus in 2024 makes no sense.
This is a cinema camera period so until Arri and Red do it we can’t hold our breath.
It makes plenty of sense but for a solo run and fun shooter not so much, I guess. Depends on what you shoot, right?
With the money you save maybe buy the DJI Focus Pro.
My only problem with the camera was the monitor but now that BMB and Portkeys have released USB-C monitors that control the camera I’m good with the Pyxis aside from it not doing 120fps in 4K 😡 😤
bmpc 6k better, lol
This is well known since the first pocket 4k came out. Good info for those who just bought their first BM camera.
Well, apparently, it's not well known at all since most people use dual native iso and dual gain iso interchangeably 🤷🏻♂️
@@JorisHermans as does Blackmagic Design. They are all over the place. On the Website they call it Dual Gain ISO and name ISO 400 as the „native“ ISO and ISO 3200 as „the secondary base ISO“.
The info is there though.🤷♂️
I personally prefer not using the term Dual Gain ISO because it can be confused with Dual Gain Output to easily
their horrible customer service and warranties keeps me far away from those cams. i have 2 dead ursas cinema 4ks that they refused to fix for same issue in less then 2 months of getting service done. they always say failed sensor when their cameras start failing with short sensor life hours. plenty of other people reporting same issue
Too much compromise! Yeah great cost but who buys standard when they can afford automatic
What are the compromises?
@@bob8619 I dunno, but I'm guessing the training wheels, those being autofocus and ibis. Seems that is the common complaints, so many people can't be bothered putting in the time to learn how to focus a lens these days or hold their camera still or use a tripod or monopod. Or light a scene or basically anything you normally do when filming. They just wanna run and gun at ISO 12800 with autofocus engaged and throw a factory lut on it in post.
It's because people don't realize that cameras made for cinema are not meant for videography (and vice versa). Cinema is always manual and not assisted
@@bob8619 if that’s your thing that’s your thing broooooos and I agree with what you’re saying but don’t tell right you are going to shoot a movie with wanna be arri right now, when you know you going outside to shoot content for girl friend running around! Quick turnaround projects that were the market is that’s it get with the times fast turn around who said I don’t know how to manual focus or all that other nonsense, you guys brought up lighting etc! GET with the times all the influencers on TH-cam are they shooting a movie they all went out and shoot forest and leaves lol Get outta here and be Facts! All these influencers you follow all of them using LiDAR lol stop being hypocritical
@@mrdamiansingh You replied to the wrong guy bozo
No IBIS. No internal ND. Pass.
You must be a videographer 😂
@@hhankx Yeah, LOL. Let's see how many cinematographers are picking the Pyxis over an ARRI, or even an FX6 (internal NDs), or even an FX3 (with IBIS).
@@Shurehlm anyone who has the money to buy arri wont pick pyxis or even fx6 wtf man.
Yeah no eyepiece and instagram filters too. Why even bother
Cinema cam means = No IBIS
Internal ND is subjective, ALWAYS, subjective, for example, I'm more of a ND in matte box person, I trust them more
Great INFO, thanks!