When To Use Schluter Ditra For Tile
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ส.ค. 2024
- Learn the reason to use the Schluter Ditra underlayment product for tiled floors.
The "decoupling" feature of Ditra is really useful in certain situations, such as a cracked concrete subfloor. We'll get up close with this product and show you how it works. - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
I wish I had come across this informational tutorial a month ago. It would have saved me $$, time, frustration, and tears. Never let someone tell you need a product installation when you don't and most importantly make sure the knucklehead doing the work knows WTF they're doing.
Oh, I'm sorry. It's funny, when I work with my clients I try to explain as much detail as I can and include them in the process. Most of them appreciate that and I think it helps build confidence in the project. Sounds like you got the opposite kind of contractor!
Excellent description on the Schluter DITRA product. Thank you Sir!
This video is great. Thank you so much for taking the time in being so thorough. I am going to be doing a DIY tile project, and you have helped me tremendously.
Hey how did you diy tile project go? Can I see some results ?
thank you for posting. nice job with explanation of the "why"
I used a notched trowel 3.5 for sticking the ditra to ply. Always phone manufacturers for advice when using tiles to ditra. They know best and have tested things.
Great explanation, thank you.
Awesome video, thanks for the info
Very informative. Thank you.
Good explanation.
Great job 👏 of explaining
awesome video
I have been using and installing Schluter products for about 18 years. I will NEVER use anything else. Schluter actually has their own mortars as well as their own trowels to use with the Ditra and Kerdi. Schluter will offer incredible trainings for installers. Trainings are 2 days and they, pay for your hotel, breakfast, lunch and dinner!!! NOTHING that this company does is second rate.
Thomas NorthCastle German gear is always made vell.
Interesting video buddy...
Finally someone that understands uncoupling. Thanks!
great video
GREAT PRESENTATION
Thanks man!
VERY definitive & clarifying about Ditra's use over concrete, but what about tile's movement over panels or other substrates.....most of which are liable to settling and shifting.....?
+emil dekoven Ditra can be used over almost anything, including plywood. My personal preference is to use other materials in many cases, though. For plywood substrate I typically use hardibacker brand cement board because it's easier and quicker to put down.
It seems like Ditra is used more than necessary.
If you can afford it then go for it, no problems. If I'm not mistaken according to Schluter Ditra is technically not a rated crack isolation membrane though it can perform as such. For minimal cracking cheaper CIM membranes(liquid or sheet material) are equally suitable and affordable. This is definitely good for newer concrete slabs that haven't had time to reach a structural equilibrium due to shrinkage/settlement. Great for slabs with a lot of cracks as well though no guarantees in that case.
Actually, the entire point of Ditra is as an uncoupling mat to isolate substrate movement and cracks from the tile above. Schluter states: "DITRA provides uncoupling through its open rib structure, which allows for in-plane movement that effectively neutralizes the differential movement stresses between the substrate and the tile, thus eliminating the major cause of cracking and delaminating of the tiled surface."
ALL Floors Move. Plywood subfloors move too, and not at the same rate or direction as the adjacent walls. Humidity also swells and (the lack thereof) contracts wood floors. Another benefit of the Ditra is that is waterproofs the floor, especially when combined with Kerdi band.
So, use Ditra on ALL floors on the interior of the home.
FYI, This particular product is not engineered for outdoor use however they have another product
Thank you for such a well made video. is using schluter ditra on OSB subfloor recommended or necessary ? I have a kitchen area 12 ft wide and 20 ft long joists 1 1/2'' X 9'' 16'' OC and it is stripped down to the OSB subfloor. I intend to tile it with 12''X24'' porcelain tiles. my original plan was to cover the 5/8'' OSB subfloor with 3/4'' external grade plywood and secure the plywood to the OSB with flooring screws then install the tiles directly onto the plywood with modified thinset designed for plywood application and to avoid using backerboard or schluter ditra to reduce costs
+badboy3985 Ugh. Not a fan of OSB in any application, especially floors. Ideally you should have two layers of 3/4 plywood for your structural base, so I like your proposal to install a layer of 3/4 plywood on top of your OSB subfloor. Stagger the seams between the two layers. Then, you should absolutely use either 1/4 Hardibacker (I'm recommending that brand specifically) screwed down to the plywood or the Ditra if you prefer. Hardibacker would add only $300 to the cost. With the larger tiles you are asking for trouble to simply thinset down to the plywood. That just isn't done anymore because the tile may not stay adhered in the long term and because cracks can develop. Large tiles also mean that you need to check that the floor is straight or flat, even if it isn't level. The Hardibacker or Ditra gives you a chance to correct out-of-flatness if needed. Larger tiles that span a hump or a dip in the floor are likely to crack or have a "lip" on the edge of the tile when installed. Check out some of my other videos on tiling for more tips...
Hi, Great video!
Lokking for a bit of advice, just lifted ceramic tiles with intention of laying new. Plumber mentioned the cracked floor and asked whether some tiles had cracked which they had. House is approx 20yrs old.
You mentioned finding it awkward to use at the end of the video. Is it suitable for a DIYer? I've tiled before but not laid a membrane between floor and tile. We're considering using Luxury Vinyl Flooring but the click version which seems easiest to lay doesn't have grout lines which look nicer. Thanks for any help.
There's are lots of reasons for tile cracks and much depends on the substrate involved. This Ditra product is designed to alleviate certain types of movement that contribute to cracks, but not all. If you have a wood floor with lots of deflection due to undersized joists, for example, nothing will solve that issue except stronger framing. Working with Ditra can be accomplished by a DIY, but you must pay attention to detail and understand that there is extra time involved. If you are looking for a quick fix, this is not the product for you. You still need to make sure the framing or the slab is in good shape, without too much deflection or undulation. You need to be careful about thinset type and mix ratio, You need to leave time between steps for set-up. You need need to be extra careful about tile lippage and thinset spread. The devil is in the details, so do your homework and read the instructions in the package.
Thanks for the explanation, I have 900 sf of tile I need to install on 2nd floor, The framing is 4x12 x 16 long 4' OC with 1" plywood subfloor, Will Ditra work here or do I need to add hardibacker or both or even more plywood subfloor
Is this a timber frame home? Four foot centers are not typical with modern framing! It would be difficult for me to judge without seeing the room in person, but with four foot centers the floor is likely to have quite a bit of deflection regardless of the joist size or subfloor thickness. You can put a laser level in between the joists and do some stepping around the laser to see if the dot bounces on the walls. Or, you may be able to even feel the deflection as you walk. If so, I would recommend another layer of 3/4 plywood screwed down to the subfloor with staggered joints. That assumes you can make the extra height work in any adjoining room or hallway. The Ditra product is not primarily intended to help with deflection, but it does provide some help in that regard so I would use it. A smaller tile will result in more grout lines, which can also help provide more places for movement without cracking tile. However, you need to be realistic. It may just be that tile is a bad idea and something like a wood floor is a better option. In the kitchen I'm working on right now that is the case. After doing the demo I was not pleased with the deflection and waviness in the floor, so the homeowner agreed to forego tile and go with a wood floor instead.
Very informative, thanks! For concrete installs, what do you think of paint-on products such as RedGuard or Hydroban?
Not really fan of these paint on products. I'll use Schluter products for tile over concrete or for a tiled shower floor. Otherwise, I use hardibacker cement backerboard and I haven't seen the need for painting on any product over that.
thanks for good explanation of schluter ditra! I want to tile in my basement where i have concrete floor with few cracks like on your video. Does schluter also work as moisture vapor barrier?
It's not marketed for that purpose, but since it's plastic I would assume it does offer some protection as a moisture barrier. The sides don't overlap, but that's minimal exposure.
I used it for my basement in front of the wet bar. That was six years ago. So far it's great. No grout cracks. It's completely solid.
Marcin Wilusz ditra can be used as a moisture barrier because it is waterproof. you need to apply ditra tape to the seams in order to male it completely waterproof. it is marketed as a vapor moisture barrier, and it is made of polypropylene. Not for shower floors but good for normal usage areas where some moisture would be present. at least, thats what they said at the schluter workshop this week!
great video. What underlay do you suggest to go underneath washroom porcelain tiles?
Your choice will really depend on what subfloor you have. For residential use typically you'll have a subfloor of 3/4 plywood or diagonal boards in older houses. (See my video about underlayment and subfloors). Then I'll add a second layer of plywood for strength. Finally, I most often use hardibacker 1/4" backerboard over the plywood before tiling. However, if you have a concrete slab as a subfloor then this Schluter product is the ticket. The Schluter can also be used on top of plywood, but I just prefer the cement backerboard for that application. Take a look at some of my other bathroom videos and you'll get a sense of how it's done.
I have a basement in a high humidity part of the country, would you recommend that I apply this subfloor directly onto the basement slab? I have been looking around and I see many guys suggesting the use of a plastic dimpled product over the slab, install subloor and tile on-top of that. That seems like an overkill to me, if I will b tiling some areas. I would like to hear your opinion. Thanks
The Ditra product is meant as a "decoupler" to separate the concrete or other substrate from the tile so as to avoid cracks. If you are concerned about flooding, or moisture, or water vapor migration through the slab, that is a different issue. Ideally those problems are solved through other means, such as improved exterior drainage, downspout control, french drains, sump pumps, ventilation, etc.
Hey nice video! When would you use ditra vs those other products? Im guessing you mean something like redguard?
I'm remodeling my kitchen and unsure if I need ditra or can just use redguard.
For your kitchen are you tiling the backsplash and/or floor? For either of those instances you really don't need any waterproofing products before tiling. Ditra might be used on the floor if you are concerned about movement, such as when tiling over a slab. Don't confuse Ditra, which is a decoupling mat, with Schluter's Kerdi waterproofing membrane. Two different things. Ditra can also be made waterproof, they say, but that's not the main point.
Can this be used if for instance a water line would break and flood the area or a sump pump would back up or quit working. The underlayment will get wet and this will not work as water will get trapped?
When this product is installed all of the voids in the waffle pattern are filled with thinset mortar. So, there really isn't any place for water to become trapped, although obviously it isn't desirable for any tile installation to be flooded with water constantly.
Could you use ditra over the hardibacker? To protect from movement and such
+Ice Fishing Ditra can go over almost anything, but if you were tiling a floor and you had the option of using hardibacker, the Ditra would likely not be necessary. If you were worried about cracks on a plywood floor, though, you could put the Ditra right over the plywood and skip the cement board.
I would like to know if it is possible to lay wood tile over wood tile, I was told that it can be done
You may not like my answer! In certain areas of construction there are practices which, though they may be common, are ill-advised. Flooring and roofing are two areas which come to mind. I often see roofers install a second layer of shingles over an original layer. It can be done, but the result looks bad and also shortens the lifespan of the new shingles considerably. Better to remove the first layer and do it right. In flooring I see layers of various flooring types over one another, including wood, tile, vinyl and more. It's a bad idea. You end up with ugly raised edges at doorways, base moldings or cabinets buried in the layers of flooring, and the long term performance of the flooring compromised due to flex or lateral movement. For me, a job worth doing is worth doing right. So, I remove existing floor finishes before adding another. It looks better and performs longer. I think layers of flooring are obvious to the eye and I think it cheapens a house. Yes, you will find somebody who will install one layer over another, but I won't do it under any circumstances.
Can you use this on a plywood wall before tile? And do you need to use a special uncoupling thinset? Thanks
Ditra is really intended for floors. Could you use it on a vertical surface? I wouldn't recommend it. Getting it to adhere well and stay in place until dry would be a nightmare, and it would have limited utility anyway. I'm not even sure how well it would work at all, since all the weight would be on only one side of the waffle pattern. Instead, apply 1/4 inch backerboard to the plywood, or remove the plywood and use 1/2 inch backerboard. I prefer Hardibacker over other brands.
Hi. I want to re-tile my kitchen and bathroom floor. I believe it's concrete underneath. What I REALLY want is to avoid my tiles cracking. they will be 6x24 ceramic tiles. What is the best product (substrate) to use? Do you recommend this or an alternative if I can't find this? Thanks
First, confirm what is underneath it all. You'll want to remove all of the existing finish flooring, including the tile and any underlayment to get to clean concrete or whatever is underneath. If the existing tile is adhered directly to the concrete then you'll have a lot of chipping and maybe grinding to do. Assuming it is a concrete subfloor then the Ditra shown in the video is an excellent choice for underlayment. It will protect against cracking due to lateral movement of the the concrete underneath or minor cracking in the concrete. However, you still need to get the subfloor straight and flat (if not level) so that the tiles are completely supported. This is especially important for long or large tiles. Otherwise, the tile could also crack. If the floor is badly out of flat, you can use a leveling compound to help, which is put down before the Ditra. If the floor is pretty flat but has a few minor dipsy-doo-daas, you can usually make that up with the thinset under the tile. Make certain you trowel the notches in the thinset all in the same direction so air can escape and you get good tile contact. If your subfloor is not concrete, let me know what you find and I'll give you other tips.
thanks so much. :)
Do I have to level the concrete sub-floor before I put this underlay down? or does this underlay substitute for that?
Sorry, leveling is a separate issue. If you have some very minor waviness or something like that you might be able to go a little heavy on the thinset in some areas, but for actual leveling you'll need a second step.
Just use a leveling system such as
SpinDoctor Tile Leveling.
Can this be used on 2nd floor balcony with no roof as waterproofing before the tile? of is it better to EDPM membrane?
This is not intended as any kind of roofing. It can be used outdoors in certain circumstances, but it's not appropriate as a roofing material.
Can you recommend a product for me...I’m converting my garage (concrete floor) into a playroom. I planned on putting foam tiles on the floor, but I’m sure I’ll need something underneath for moisture and such, right? Please help, thanks🙏🏼
Well, has moisture or water intrusion been a problem yet? You can test for moisture by taping a section of plastic to the slab and sealing all around the edges. Leave it for a few days and see if any moisture is trapped underneath. Insulation may be more critical, depending on your geographic area. Slabs stay cool and can be uncomfortable as a play area. There are lots of options, including putting down rigid foam with sleepers before your finish floor, or using some of the commercially available floor panels such as Dricore subfloor. The best idea will really depend on your particular circumstances and the details of your room. If this is just a quick and dirty budget-job to give the kids somewhere to make a mess, you might just paint the concrete to help seal it and then lay down indoor-outdoor carpeting or the rubber tiles you mentioned.
enduringcharm Most Thanks!🙏🏼💕
Thanks for this informative video. My big question is this: Can you tile "over" an outdoor concrete slab that has expansion joints about 3/4" wide without replicating the expansion joint in the tile installation using Ditra? The slabs were poured long ago and surround a circular pool, and I'd like to have the tile continuous without expansion joints, can that be done using the Ditra? I'd appreciate anybody answering this question, Thanks.
I live and work in the Northeast, so our climate essentially precludes outdoor tile installations. It just instn't done here and I have no experience with it. Schluter does have exterior solutions, which I've linked below. Any concrete slab in any climate at any age is subject to movement, though, so I'd proceed with caution.
www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Exterior-Systems/Drainage-Membranes/c/ES-DM
Thanks so much for your expedient reply, I live in Rockland Co., N.Y. and I kind of already assumed that doing it the way I asked wouldn't last long at all. The earth/ground is always moving and a friend wanted to know how he could do what he wanted to do which is lay the tile continuously. I told him that the expansion joints at intervals surrounding the pool were important and he can't either fill them with sand and can't cover them over with his tile because they will fail most likely this time next year around winter.
I suggested he leave a 3/8+ gap, splitting the difference on each side of the E.J. and bevel the cut end of the Porcelain tile to eliminate the sharp edge. I actually told him if it were my home I would just power wash the concrete which is in great shape but for a couple of fracture cracks and fill those with some Phenoseal caulk then just paint it with some good grade textured paint. But I also thought about the smooth surface porcelain tile being a slip hazard when wet too.
He has decided to install the tile (it's what his customer want's and the tile is already bought) with the gaps over the expansion joint and I'm going to help him.
I still wouldn't have done this, but as the saying goes, "The customer's always right and Give them what they want" and do the best we can.
Thanks again.
Oh, jeez! I'm in Jersey so our climates are identical. I wouldn't get involved tiling over an old slab, period. With a very high quality porcelain tile (PEI rating of 5) and extensive preparation of substrate it is possible to put down exterior tile in our area, but it's expensive to do it properly and I've only seen it done in commercial applications. Take a look at that Schluter link I sent. Your description sounds like a disaster waiting to happen!
Good morning and Thanks again for your comment.
I know you are right and we both are on the same page with this, I would Never do what he is intending to and will try to talk him out of it today. There is just too many negative variables to make this worthwhile and the fact that the tile isn't even textured but smooth porcelain, not even a natural looking stone or granite makes this something that shouldn't even be used around a pool unless you wanted an ice skating rink. I wouldn't sign my name to this, so I'm Not.
Thanks again.
Or you could just use schluter expansion joint....
I have slab on grade but put a floating subfloor in other rooms with laminate flooring. I need to raise my bathroom floor to meet the new subfloor. Can I put down 3/4” plywood to raise it and use this as the underlaminate? Seems like a better option than using thin plywood and adding hardibacker on top.
Well, much depends on how much height you need to add. I'm assuming you are putting down tile in the bathroom, so include that height as well as either backerboard (1/4" or 1/2 ") or something like Schluter Ditra. When you put plywood or any wood directly on a slab there is the potential for future moisture causing rot or decay. A barrier of some sort between the wood and the concrete is a good idea. Even better, if the height happens to work out you might be able to install 1/2" hardibacker over the concrete using thinset then use Schluter Ditra over that. Then you'd avoid using wood altogether and be safe from moisture issues.
enduringcharm thanks for the reply. Sorry I was very tired while writing that. I had planned on putting a moisture barrier down and then using the plywood and hardibacker overtop of the plywood. This seems like a better option to use thicker plywood with the moisture barrier and Ditra on top. I don’t think 1/2” hardibacker alone will bring it up high enough to meet my laminate flooring.
If 1/2" hardi isn't enough height, then plywood is an option.
Now how would you go about removing this underlayment? Would u have to run new wires. Floors is beingh re done it already has this system.
I've often thought about this problem in general--many of the modern methods of construction leave the next guy doing a remodel with a real mess. Scraping up schluter ditra is just one of the those tedious tasks that has to be done. If it's adhered to concrete there are various garden scrapers which may help, or you can use a power scraper. If it's adhered to plywood you may be able to cut the plywood into squares and pull it up that way. You mentioned wires, which may mean you have the heated floors. It's all got to come up and you start over for a remodel.
It is my own contention as an installer that if a crack is to expand and contract frequently and/or significantly, nothing, including DITRA, will prevent a crack from transferring through. The tile doesn’t care if it’s mortared to plastic or directly to substrate, enough movement will end in same results. Each little square is still adhered to the tile as well as the substrate below. For mild hairline cracks in concrete (which are super common), I have had 10 year results, no cracks, by just using flex bond mortar (up to 1/16 of flex). Cheaper, easier, and doesn’t add the additional 3/16 or so of height to the floor. That being said I have also tiled right over stress cracks with typical versabond or similar, and no cracks as well.
Of course if the cracking is severe it should be repaired or the underlying issue resolved first. I think you may miss the way Ditra functions, though. Yes, the underside is adhered to the (potentially) cracked substrate. The tile is adhered to the mortar on top, though, not to the Ditra itself. Since the waffle pattern is keyed with a dovetail type of shape, the mortar on top can actually become completely loose from the Ditra and still secure the tile. In this way, the plastic waffle pattern can absorb substantial movement but still keep the tile from cracking or coming loose. The top layer of tile and mortar stays where it was put down, the cracked underlayment may move, and the Ditra waffle pattern can distort to absorb the difference between the two layers.
Sounds good on paper, maybe I just don’t like change lol. nonetheless your video is very informative and I appreciate the response
Ha! Yes, change is not always fun. To be clear, though, I don't use Ditra on every installation because it is a bit of a PIA. When conditions allow I much prefer 1/4 hardibacker and done. But, when the substrate looks dodgy ditra can provide an extra bit of security.
good video, but one thing that you didn't say is that when attaching ditra (pronounced DEETRA) to plywood or osb its very important to use a quality polymer modified thinset. But you must use the unmodified to attach the tiles to the Ditra, and you also use the unmodified thinset when attaching Ditra to concrete.
Richard Miller I mentioned the issue at 5:56. and you are right--different substrates require different thinset. Their booklet sold with the rolls goes into great detail on this matter.
+Richard Miller
laticrete 253 is my modified of choice. GOOOOOOOD STUFF!!!!!!!!!!
I talked to the Shluter reps who are now telling me that it's OK to use the ALL-SET modified under Ditra/over concrete. Same warranty.
Jesse Parris Yeah, they made their own chemical compound they say behaves the same as either traditional modified & unmodified formulas. Very cool, a little more expensive, but what a time saver!! Makes their already very durable and efficient brand even that much more more efficient. When you have one less thing to worry about, the job will go that much faster. Especially not a worry when you know it’s a product from a brand that will live up to all it claims to be.
We recently bought a home which has a mudroom with a concrete slab. At one time someone installed a laminate floor directly on top of the concrete slab. Later someone installed a carpet on top of that laminate floor. The issue is that during the wet months water seeps up through the concrete slab and absorbs into the rug. I don't know the extent of the cracks but our plan is to rip both layers of flooring out and install tile instead. Would schluter-ditra be a good choice for this application or should I use DRIcore OSB Sheathing? If we wanted heated floors, could we use the ditra heat system in place of either of these or would we need to use a combination of them? I just want to make sure we wont have issues with cracked tile or tiles coming loose due to the cracks in the slab or water coming up through the concrete slab. TIA!
Well, remember that it isn't polite to shoot the messenger! I have concerns about your situation based on your description. You shouldn't have water coming up through the slab at all and if it's a regular occurrence each year then something isn't right. In a crawlspace or full basement sometimes the water table itself can be high enough that water can intrude, and some combination of drainage and sump pumps usually do the trick. If you truly have a slab on grade, though, it would have to be a REALLY high water table to intrude! Like, a swamp! My guess is that you may have something else going on, such as non-working gutters, poorly placed downspouts, or a grading issue. In other words, it's more likely that some form of surface water is getting in through your slab rather than ground water. Either way, you really want to spend the time and money to solve that problem before you worry about the finish flooring inside. If you don't, the slab will eventually move on you, bigger cracks could appear, the perimeter footings could erode, etc.
As for tiling after you fix the water issue, the Schluter system could be a good choice. It will help isolate small movement in the slab which I presume is already somewhat compromised. But, if you still have water coming in regularly, the pressure of the water underneath as well as the moisture itself will destroy your tile installation. I have used those DRIcore panels (or something like it) before, but they are no panacea. They can be difficult to install and keep flat and they are really intended for carpet or some resilient flooring. Plus, the floor height will be raised enough to be a problem with adjoining rooms. They are removable, which is one plus. All in all, if you want tile, I would suggest finding a pro to diagnose and fix your water problem first. Otherwise you'll be shooting yourself in the foot.
Thanks for the reply. I know we have at least one downspout that needs relocating near the mudroom concrete slab. Previously you can see that the downspout use to go into the concrete step outside of the mudroom and then down and out onto the driveway through a pipe. Not ideal since in the winter it just freezes and turns to black ice but still better then the current situation since someone replaced the gutters and downspouts so now this downspout just goes straight down onto the concrete step. My guess is that that is probably where the water is making it's way back up into the concrete slab. This is our second years living in this house but only the first time we've noticed this issue. It's also only around the perimeter of the mudroom. The middle of the mudroom is bone dry. Hopefully we caught it before things are too bad. We planned on relocating that downspout anyway when we reside our house this summer and get new gutters and downspouts. In which case we may opt to relocate the water into a dry well or just leach it out somewhere in our side yard.
Ideally downspouts are connected to an underground pipe system that leads to daylight. Otherwise, have extensions put on and make sure the grading is well sloped away from the house. Water is insidious and I've seen significant damage occur due to what started as small maintenance items with gutters.
enduringcharm may I please get some help. New home owner and I’m having a similar issue only I don’t know what the problem is. My carpet in my bedroom was becoming saturated with water, pulled it out and found a damp concrete slab. Do you have an email I can send more details and pictures. Thank you for your help.
@@snowinghappiness There's probably nothing I can diagnose from a distance. Water intrusion problems can be related to ground water table, to surface water, to roofing issues, plumbing or heating issues, etc. I FREQUENTLY find that water problems attributed to one kind of issue are actually related to a different one. It's best to find a local expert, such as a general contractor, a remodeler, or somebody with broad experience in all phases of construction, to take a look.
great video. Joe Pesci, is that you?!
does the slab have to be completely residue free? old tile glue residue?
Eh, it depends. If the glue is minimal and well-adhered it might be fine. If there is lots of it and it's scaly I would try to remove it first.
Im planning to use this product on my kitchen subfloor. I am installing cement tiles which are very brittle, the house is also over 100 years old. So I want to use this product as I cant exactly trust the old subfloor to not move on me and crack the cement tiles.
One question I do have is I have seen in some houses im in that they will do a smooth layer of thinset over the ditra board to first fill all those honeycombs so to speak , let that dry, THEN do the notched trowel and tile install.
This seems a more reliable method as opposed to filling the combs and immediately applying notched thinset on top before it dries. DO you agree? Thank you
I am not an expert, but I don't see any benefit to letting it dry. IMO, it is probably going to create a stronger bond with all of it drying at the same time. Not sure what you mean about trusting your subfloor, but this product is mostly for supporting lateral movements. If your floor is not strong/thick enough, it probably is not going prevent tiles from popping over time. If the house only has the original subfloor, chances are it WILL NEED 3/4 plywood and possibly additional support.
That's good advice, and I agree!
The Ditra product is meant for decoupling to prevent cracks from lateral expansion and contraction or other movement. If you have a bouncy floor or one that deflects with foot traffic, etc., then you have a different problem. The floor must still be stiff in order to support tile, and large format tile, especially, demands a limit to deflection. So, first fix your deflection issue if you have one, with the use of plywood, sistered joists or beams. If you feel you may have lateral movement as well, Ditra can be helpful. Personally, I like to fill the waffle pattern on top as I lay tile, not before. However, the thinset underneath the Ditra I do in advance and let set up before I tile.
do you just put it over the cracks or cover the whole floor?
+NightHawk This would cover the entire floor and act as a "decoupler" for what's underneath. Even though the Ditra mat is adhered to the floor and the tile is adhered to the mat, there is flexibility in the mat itself which allows for some movement.
Can you just put it over the crack or do you have to use it for the entire floor? i suppose there might be a raised layer of tile but... ditra is kind of expensive lol.
No, it has to be used over the entire floor.
Can I install Ditra over the bathroom OSB subfloor? Or do I need to cover the subfloor first with plywood?
Ditra can be installed over OSB or plywood, however, this still assumes you have adequate strength there. Your floor should have two layers BEFORE the Ditra, which are the subfloor and underlayment. If you just have a single layer over the joists of OSB then you need to add the underlayment first. See this: th-cam.com/video/rmrLxfaGXyQ/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for your video. I'm having tile floors install with plywood subflooring. Would you recommend using this product? Or is it best used over concrete?
It will work over almost anything but my personal preference for plywood is to use 1/4 inch hardibacker. The Ditra requires extra work and extra mortar, so I generally don't use it unless there is a good reason. It should also be noted that tile floors with Ditra do sound different when you walk on them versus something like hardibacker cement board. I prefer the solid feel of the hardibacker if I have the choice. I use Ditra when I know I may have an issue with cracks or movement.
1/4” hardie board and flex bond mortar
What if you need to finish your project later and you have access mortar in your ditra. Will it be OK to come back and put new mortar over the excess??
Yes, you can add mortar on top of what is there. Some people even fill all the waffle pattern first, let it cure, and then come back to tile.
I'm going to try to do tile in my bathroom that has wood subflooring. would you recommend this for that opposed to the hardie backer?
Do you mean plywood subflooring or do you mean actual diagonal wood boards? For plywood I prefer to use 1/4 inch hardibacker. if you have diagonal wood boards I would replace them with plywood.
enduringcharm I meant plywood. Thanks!
how would u feel about using Harie backer instead on that cracked floor?
+greg l Hardiebacker (or any other brand of cement board) would not provide any flexibility to resist further cracking. If the cracks in the concrete had already stabilized you could actually tile right over the concrete. However, it's almost impossible to know if there will be more movement so the Schluter product gives a measure of insurance. Cement board adhered to the concrete floor with thinset will just break apart if two sections of the floor move apart. Certain thinset formulations may allow a very slight movement under the cement board, but not enough to make a dramatic difference. The Schluter Ditra, by contrast, will allow fairly substantial movement underneath because the plastic keyways decouple the tile on top from the floor underneath.
it is similar to a timber frame home, The height is not a problem. Yes I agree 4. OC is not typical. This is a A Frame Mountain home built in the 60s.
Okay, I see. Well, as I said, check the deflection and see where you are.
Shouldn't an S1 or S2 adhesive prevent the tile crack?
Isn't the flexibility of it exactly for this kind of situation?
Thank you
There are thinset mortars designed to allow some movement or flex. However, the Ditra should, in theory, give greater protection. It will allow both lateral movement and some vertical movement, such as when a concrete floor cracks and settles or when a plywood floor deflects under load. To my knowledge there have been no independent scientific tests to determine maximum movement of these products in realtion to each other, so we are at the mercy of the marketing departments. The Ditra is an uncoupling mat, meaning that even if it breaks loose from the underlayment in areas, it should continue to hold the tile flat and unbroken. It also offers potential side benefits such as waterproofing or electric radiant heat. Personally, I use Ditra when I'm faced with a concrete slab that looks suspect or when I need electric radiant heat. For plywood floors I use 1/4 inch hardibacker and a flexible modified thinset.
@@enduringcharm thank you for you explanation.
The benefit is obvious on "wooden" floors but I at this point don't see the cost-benefit justification in concrete floors.
I'm writing from Europe and here plywood or OSB is 1 in 1000
Thanks again for the explanation.
Cheers
Does this help in thermal insulation too??
That's not the intention of the product but it's possible it may also provide a thermal break when installed over a concrete slab, for example.
Why cant I use Versabond it has NEVER failed me on any phase I use it Bonds to Everything awesomely as I understand its a moisture cure time issue between membrane and tile I want to lay it with versabond to the substraight since ive already floated floar with versabond my question is do I have to use their product or is in fact Versabond ok to use it is a Superior product and bonds to everything and isn't cheap so please respond this membrane is new to my methods but I want my customer supplying it HAPPY :):) T.Y.
DONNIEWATKINS I can't really speak for the manufacturer, but my understanding is that a modified thinset (like versabond) does not work well with the Ditra product because it needs to dry more quickly for the polymers to give strength to the thinset. Since tile and the plastic Ditra product basically trap moisture from the freshly installed thinset, a modified thinset will not set-up properly. An Unmodified thinset, by contrast, does not need to dry quickly and actually gains strength from being moist over a longer period. That's why Schluter recommends an unmodified thinset. Versabond is a good product, but it likely won't cure properly when using Ditra. These folks put a lot of R&D dollars into their product, so I would be inclined to take them at their word. My advice would be to use an unmodified thinset with the Ditra, or else go another route (like 1/4" hardibacker) with your Versabond.
Awesome thanks
Schluter has changed their position on this, now they say it is ok to use a modified thinset on top of ditra as long as its their product.
Now I'm all confused on what I should do based on the comments and your video. I'm remodeling a half bathroom in a 1985 home built on concrete slab. The concrete is pristine. No cracks at all. Should I just tile straight onto the concrete or still use ditra?
You can tile directly onto the concrete if you wish. The point of the Ditra is to decouple the tile from that slab so that if you ever do get cracks or movement, the Ditra will help prevent those cracks from telegraphing through to the tile. You have to evaluate the possibility of cracks or movement of the slab in the future. Another factor is the thickness of the Ditra, which may or may not be an issue with the floor of the adjoining room. If you are uncertain of future movement and flooring height is not an issue, then go ahead and use the Ditra.
@@enduringcharm thank you. I am just proceeding with the ditra. It's a small area and cost me $50 to get a 8 feet sheet of it. I'm really just using this remodel as a way to get my feet wet with getting into the diy realm.
When you put down the Ditra keep a couple boxes of tile or some other heavy objects handy. Since Ditra comes in a roll, the edges tends to curl up when you first put it down. Use the tile boxes to weigh down the edges until the thinset cures.
arent you supposed to use a modified poly. thinset?
It depends on the substrate. Over plywood you'll use a modified thinset, over concrete you'll use an unmodified thinset. Schluter also recently introduced it's own brand of thinset, including one (expensive) type that can be used in any situation.
What about expansion and contraction of the polymer material? I'm talking about horizontally since that is the direction where the most material is oriented.
The Shluter Ditra product is manufactured from High Density Polyetheline plastic (HDPE) which has an expansion coefficient of about 67 - 10^6 in/in F.
Regular thinset mortar has an average expansion coefficent of 5.78 - 10^6 in/in F.
Therefore the Schluter Ditra product theoretically expands approximately 11.59 times more than the thinset mortar given any environmental temperature condition.
Wouldn't longitudinal expansion and contraction cause unnecessary shear to the thin set mortar over time thus resulting in un-coupling?
You are focusing on one aspect (expansion coefficient) rather than the entire system. The reason the Ditra product works as a decoupler is due to the waffle pattern. Maybe you haven't seen Ditra in person and maybe my video didn't show it well enough, but not only is there a waffle pattern but each square is "keyed" so that the edges are at an angle. When you fill the square with thinset the keyed edges lock the thinset permanently into place after curing. So, the tile will be adhered to the thinset and the thinset is keyed into the waffle pattern. Next, remember that there is air space between the edges of each square. So, as expansion and contraction takes place the overall pattern provides an area for movement to happen. Finally, underneath the Ditra is a fibrous material which adheres the Ditra to the substrate with thinset but will also allow some movement. Overall, then, the decoupling system works by adhering the Ditra to the substrate, adhering the tile to the thinset on top, but allowing all kinds of movement within the waffle pattern of the Ditra mat. Your concern about expansion might be well founded if we were applying a solid plastic to a solid thinset layer, but that isn't the case. The waffle pattern is designed to absorb that movement as well as movement of the substrate below. If all that sounds fanciful, the product has a long history of success and in my personal experience it works well.
i am doing porcelin tile in living room, family room, dinign room and kitchen. SOME areas in the living and family room has crack on the concrete slab. can i use this membrane ONLY on those crack areas OR i have to pay lot$$$$ to cover ALL THE AREAS? (including none cracked areas?)
No, the system is designed to cover an entire area, not just one section. Possibly you could end at a doorway, but if you are tiling over a slab foundation I would recommend this product over all areas. I believe there may be competing products which accomplish the same function, but I'm not sure they are that much less expensive. Schluter is the market leader for a reason.
do you have any recommendation if i want to tile over concrete slab with some cracks? is there any other way to accomplish this without covering entire room?? perhaps any other methods or producs?
There are other "decoupling" products but they are all in a similar price range. Patching the cracks or sealing them is pointless since the issue isn't the crack itself but the fact that there is some movement in the overall slab. You can tile over the cracks and hope the movement is over, but that is likely a fools errand and a pretty big waste of money when the tile cracks. The $600-800 for the Ditra will seem cheap compared to the ruined tile. Or, you can skip the tile and use a different finish floor. Perhaps a floating engineered wood floor or just plain carpet would be a more economical choice.
Can I use that over tile for an outdoor travertine patio ?
Exterior tile is a whole big can of worms and more than I can cover in a reply here. You need to think about weather and climate in your area, tile type, as well as the base. Schluter products can be used in exterior installations but there are important details to understand and installing anything over existing tile would be a mistake. I wouldn't do that indoors, never mind outdoors.
@@enduringcharm Thanks for your knowledge and understanding . And willingness to share. Why wouldn't you recommend putting travertine over tile ?
Tiling again over existing tile is an invitation for poor adhesion, cracking, unevenness, and a thicker floor (or patio) than is necessary. Yes, people get away with it, but you are asking for problems. If you go to the Schluter website you can drill down to the area for exterior applications, and there are other ways of doing it beside the Schluter system. I'm on the east coast in a colder zone and exterior tile is rarely done here, except occasionally in commercial settings. It might be more common where you live.
Schluter reccomends MODIFIED thinset when you install Ditra over plywood or OSB substrates. Unmodified thinset used in that installation can lead to system failure.
itdock The booklet included with the product explains the use of thinset in different scenarios. To install the Ditra onto plywood substrate they recommend modified thinset. To install it onto concrete substrate they recommend unmodified. But, when installing the tile onto the Ditra, they recommend unmodified thinset for almost all types of tile.
Should I use over mud bed ?
Skip the mud bed, that old method is no longer used. See this: th-cam.com/video/n_aGYpdZYLM/w-d-xo.html
and see this: th-cam.com/video/Q0UpPtRW_uM/w-d-xo.html
IS IT GOOD FOR OUTDOOR WALKWAY IN OREGON ?
Ditra can be used in exterior applications, although careful consideration must be made for water runoff management and freeze/thaw issues. I have zero experience with exterior tile installation, so I won't pretend to give advice. You can learn what Schluter says about this issue in this booklet, though: s3.amazonaws.com/scclegacy/media/ditra-handbook_eng.pdf
THANK YOU :-)
Can I just use this membrane to install tile over varnished standard tongue and groove oak floors with plywood subfloor? I am trying to avoid removing the 3/4" oak floor but without the added thickness of the cement board tile backing.
The short answer is no. First, any tile installation over wood joists and plywood should have two layers of plywood for stiffness. So, hopefully your first layer is 3/4 plywood and your second layer ideally should also be 3/4 plywood. Then you would install either 1/4 inch cement backerboard and then tile, or something like this Schluter Ditra and tile. Now, in a remodeling situation you may not be able to use 3/4 plywood on the second layer or else you'll have an issue with differing floor heights between rooms, so you might compromise and make the second layer 5/8 or even 1/2 inch. Your oak flooring adds no stiffness to the floor to speak of, and this Ditra is not magic. I would not recommend tiling over strip flooring in any circumstance. I think you'll find that taking up the strip flooring is not all that difficult once you get a few pieces started. any job worth doing is worth doing right!
@@enduringcharm Sounds great, Thanks!
WHAT THIN-SET TO USE TO INSTALL SCHLUTER DITRA ON OUTDOOR PORCH CONCRETE WITH CRACKS? MODIFIED OR UNMODIFIED THIN-SET? WHAT THINSET FOR INTALLING TILES ON THE DITRA, MODIFIED OR UNMODIFIED?
TOM
Over concrete use an UNmodified thinset.
Thanks for you replay. Are you sure unmodified will be strong enought to hold on to porch concrete in Canadian winter weather? Do you have experiance, have you done outdoor project with Ditra over concrete? Did it work or they toke you to court for screwing up the job cause tiles started poping up after 1 or few winters? Waiting for you thoughts. Thx
Tom
I'm just telling you what Schluter recommends. Personally I would think twice before creating an outdoor tile installation in a cold-season area. You need to be concerned with frost-proof tile and grout, with drainage, with salt exposure, and with seasonal movement. If your porch already has cracks, you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. In outdoor settings I prefer materials which can move with seasonal change without damage.
So you saying that Schluter recommends to use unmodified thin-set for outdoor installation on concrete? Yes or No? Sorry im not trying to be an ass, just making sure that this is what they recommend so i get warranties etc. Is Schluter Ditra good product for this type of tiles installation on concrete porch?
So to finallize, Schluter recommends for tile installation on concrete outdoor to use the unmodified thin-set and use polymer modified tinset on top of Ditra to install the tiles on top of Ditra ? Yes or No?
You said "In outdoor settings I prefer materials which can move with seasonal change without damage." BE MORE specific what materials?
Thx
P.S i used to installed Ditra in open space mid-rise condo ground open concept hallways and i used Centura Unmodified Master Set, under and on top of ditra in Canada Toronto , 4 years ago, and didnt hear any problems from the owner. Here is the link for the thin-set skynetisp.ca:81/photo/#!Albums/album_5363686c757465722d4b455244492d53484f5745522d4b4954/photo_5363686c757465722d4b455244492d53484f5745522d4b4954_3934322e6a7067
I prefer wood, brick, pavers, stone, etc. in an outdoor environment, which can take a beating and take movement without significant problem. But, if you want the tile look, Ditra is a quality product. You can find their own exterior installation instructions here:
s3.amazonaws.com/scclegacy/media/ditra-handbook_eng.pdf?v=201507140600
does it provide insulation?
Well, that's certainly not the point of it. Possibly it does offer some small insulation value, but I wouldn't use it for that reason.
Excellent video! My issue with this product is the price. My tile is $1,69 sq ft., this product is $2.63 a sq ft.
Yeah, you are preaching to the choir! I agree that there are quite a few products which are expensive for what they are. However, you are using an inexpensive tile. The middle ground of tile pricing is around $4.00-8.00 a square foot in my area.
What happens if you install the membranes upside down? Any ideas?
The bottom or underside has a fuzziness to it, which is what allows it to stick to the underlayment. The top does not have that and instead relies on the dovetail "keys" of each square to keep the tiles stuck in place while still allowing movement. I don't know why you'd want to install it upside down, but it wouldn't work and you'd eventually end up with broken, loose tile.
@@enduringcharm it was accidental. Suppose ill just rip it up and start again. Thanks for your quick reply.
Oh, geez. Well, that sucks. However, it will probably fail. I suppose, depending on the room, you could risk it and see how far you get. If it's a bathroom, though, you'll have a vanity and toilet sitting on top of it and the edge of a tub along side it. Not fun to replace after the fact. If it's a entrance or hallway you could see how long it lasts and then replace it when it starts to fail.
Why is it that my old tile over 1/2 plywood underlay over 5/8 subfloor was fine for twenty years and not ok now?
Today, as well as yesteryear, the ideal subfloor was 3/4 plywood over appropriately sized joists on 16 inch centers. That much has been true for many decades, despite the 5/8 plywood which was sometimes used on builder-special houses. Depending on the era, I find different things over the subfloor. In the 80s and 90s, for example, it was often just 1/4 inch luan or sometimes 1/2 inch ply. In the 60s and 70s it's often a "mud" job. In any case, all of these strategies had long term issues, which is why we do things differently today. You may have been fortunate in your home, but I've taken apart 60 or 70 baths and I can tell you that cracked tiles, delaminated tiles, missing tiles, rotted underlayment or subfloor, and similar problems are commonplace. In instances where tile was put on top of concrete slabs, I often find that cracks in the slab telegraph right through to the tile, which is why this Schluter Ditra was developed.
So, the ideal strategy today is 3/4 subfloor, and an underlayment of 3/4 ply if possible or 5/8 or 1/2 if necessary for height issues. Then we use either a 1/4 inch cement board (I prefer hardibacker) or something like this Ditra product. That's because the cement board is mechanically fastened to the plywood and the tile and thinset stick much better long term to the cement board. Personally, I use hardibacker over plywood and Ditra over concrete. I'll also use Ditra when there is electric radiant heat or some other unique circumstance. But, when it's my reputation on the line I'm not going to put tile over plywood. I've ripped up too many nightmares in my time.
Would you use this over regular concrete board in a normal climate controlled interior room? Doesn’t seem necessary but doing a job and they sold this to the customer.
If you are talking about a kitchen or bath with two layers of plywood (underlayment and subfloor) then you would use EITHER 1/4 inch backer board OR the Ditra over the second layer of plywood. There would be no point in using both. That would be like putting butter AND margarine on your bagel. It makes no sense.
@@enduringcharm sorry. I should’ve clarified. Meant “instead of” when I said over. Talk to text mistake but you answered perfect. Thanks. Problem now is exterior door is too low on a sticky tile floor. And it’s down GOOD. Would the allset Adhere the tile to that properly? I have no choice other than recommending vinyl floating floor or complete tear up but she doesn’t want that type of work of bill.
I'm not sure I follow the door problem. Is it that the exterior door is installed at too low of a level where the door would not be able to open because it would hit the new tile? The only way to fix that would be to raise the door, since you can't cut down the bottom of the door. If you are asking about laying ceramic or porcelain tile over an existing layer of vinyl tile, you could potentially install 1/4" hardibacker or Ditra over the vinyl and then tile on that. However, you are then trusting that there is enough stiffness in the assembly for tiling and you won't get cracks or loose grout. Personally, I don't take that risk. If a client wants tile, it has to include a solid substrate that I can be sure about. If the budget isn't there for that, then you have to decide which is more important: your reputation or temporarily pleasing a client with unrealistic expectations. Sometimes the best thing you can do for your business and your future is to say "no."
anyone know how thick the schluter ditra product is? in height?
It's very thin--in the neighborhood of 1/8 inch--but when you add the mortar underneath the thickness increases. I plan on 1/4 inch to be safe.
Schluter really should have made a video like this. Anyone know how thick the adhesive should be under the Schluter and what type, flexible or normal?
The thinset type used to adhere the ditra to the substrate depends on the substrate material. For example, plywood requires a modified thinset but concrete requires an unmodified thinset. Or, Schluter now sells a thinset that can be used in any circumstance.
Thank you so much for the info.
Thanks for the video waffle head😊
The customer had that installed on 3/4 plywood on deck that serves as a roof to his garage. I saw the install. The installer used the tape and sealer at joints. The crap leaked like all get out into the garage.
Well, I imagine it would leak since it is not intended for that kind of application! And, anyone ignorant enough to try and use Schluter ditra as a roofing material likely wouldn't know how to install it correctly either. The ditra product isn't even meant to be waterproof when installed indoors--that's the schluter membrane's purpose.
There was tile installed on top of the Schluter as well. I don't know much about the product. trying to find an answer for my customer.
First, you may be confusing two Schluter products--the "kerdi" membrane and the "ditra" decoupling mat. The Kerdi is meant for waterproofing showers and bathrooms. The decoupling mat is meant for protecting tile from cracking when installed over substrates with movement. Neither one, however, should be used as a roofing material! Personally, I wouldn't tile over any flat roof, but if it had to be done the roof should first be fitted with a standard roofing material. Perhaps a rubber roof if this is a flat roofed garage. Then you can figure out a way to create a tiled surface, which would likely be in conjunction with a deck over the roof. There's a lot of engineering and planning which would take place to make all that work.
Thank you for your input very much appreciated. I know what I saw. Rolls of waffle looking orange plastic and installer used a red sealer on the joints. And it failed. I concur with your thought. Much thought should have gone into this job before installing the wrong materials. The installer grouted with grout all tile gaps also. Some tile buckled up do to nowhere to expand to. The tile is confined by the sill plate to the walls. When the sun is out, you can cook a steak on the tiles. Thanks again for your reply - Bob.
Okay, well that waffle pattern is the Ditra product and it isn't meant to be waterproof even indoors! What is more, it's a plastic that will expand and contract by design, so the hot sun on a roof likely expanded it past it's design parameters. Whoever did that must by a rank amateur, because even a cursory look on the web would show him he's using the wrong product.
I thought this was for showers etc, I worry that the bond that holds the mat to the back of the orange plastic separate as a chain is only strong as the weakest link. Also just floating a vinyl product over the crack so the tile has it as its anti crack product. Can't see paying so much for this product for the whole house tile job when one crack needs to be fixed. One would have different levels if one just did the crack build up. Just my thoughts. I am no tile guy just a DYI
The Kerdi membrane is used in shower and bath areas for waterproofing, the Ditra on the floor. Fixing or anticipating a crack or movement in a concrete floor isn't always possible. This product is insurance against any movement in the substrate from migrating to the tiles. It does work well.
@@enduringcharm well worth the money!!!!
can you only use it on the crack and not the rest of the floor?
It is an underlayment which covers the entire floor and is used in place of alternatives such as cement backerboard. The point of decoupling is that current or future cracks or movement is minimized at the tile.
@@enduringcharm my plan is but I dont know if its a good idea. tile over tile in concrete floor but there is a line of crack tiles that the floor crack. my question is. if I remove the cracked tiles only and lay this orange thing I can remember the name would that help not to crack again?
It's not a good idea. In fact, it's a terrible idea! Listen, it's a lot cheaper to do it right the first time than to do it twice after learning a hard lesson. Tiling over existing tile is a hack job that will come back to haunt you. You need to take up all of the existing tile, which may come up easier than you think. I have a review video of the harbor freight demo hammer which might help. If the tile is over a slab, then get up all the tile and chip away any loose or excess thinset. Vacuum and scrub the area clean, then repair any large cracks in the slab. Once fully prepped you can install the Schluter Ditra over the slab and let it cure. Then you'll be ready for tiling.
@@enduringcharm i hear you. your right, I rather work once and not twice. thank you so much for helping me with my decision. 👍
Sounds like the guy before he had a snickers bar 😀
Schluter says use MODIFIED thinset to set the membrane to the floor and UNMODIFIED to set tile to membrane, actually.
Your belief is inaccurate. This continues to be a source of confusion, which is why Schluter created their ALLSET product which can be used in any situation. Whether you use use modified or unmodified thinset to install this Ditra product, or their shower tray product, DEPENDS ON THE SUBSTRATE. If you are installing over PLYWOOD for example, you would use MODIFIED thinset. If you are installing over CONCRETE you would use UNMODIFIED thinset. There are other examples too. Their installation instructions included with the package are clear, but you have to read the whole thing.
Watch the disc that comes with the drain kit/ shower kit it explains the difference.
MODIFIED- If used underneath the product air can't reach it to cure the thin set because modified needs air to properly cure. if you decide to use polymer/acrylic product it will take forever or will not bond or cure properly and voids the warranty.
NON-MODIFIED- If used underneath the product will cure, it DOES NOT need air because its curing process is a chemical reaction (like concrete) and DOES NOT need air. Every pro knows this, its in the specs. Read the specs, watch the orientation.
Yes, Schluter has very specific recommendations for the type of thinset used, which is explained in the paper booklet included with the Ditra product. However, the choice does depend on the substrate being used. There are instances when a latex modified thinset mortar should be used under the ditra and an unmodified thinset on top of the ditra for setting the tile. For example, Ditra over plywood requires latex modified thinset for the plywood-ditra bond layer and unmodified for the ditra-tile bond layer. Yet, Ditra over concrete requires unmodified for both layers. The booklet spells it out in some detail.
Yes u are correct but the modified thin set has to cure on its own before installing the ditra with Non modified.
It triples the amount of thinset you will use and doubles your time. Select it only if needed.
I agree--it is more work and more materials. In most situations I continue to use 1/4" cement backerboard on floors. This is for situations where movement or substrate cracks may be an issue.
I would imagine the ditra has a thermal value as well.
Unmodified thinset on concrete.
Modified on wood/ply.
My boss hastes this stuff. He says it's all marketing . Lol
It's tough getting old. Sometimes we want to hang on to what we know rather than embrace something new. Sometimes we actually do know better and the old ways are superior. In this case, the Ditra is a product that does have utility in certain situations, so your boss should probably recognize that. On the other hand, it isn't something that must be used in EVERY situation, so a little healthy skepticism is fine.
Did I miss the answer on when to use? 8 mins of what the product does but not when to use in compared to other products like backer board.
The exact moment is at 1:35!
According to Schluter you are supposed to use Modified thinset to attach the Ditra to the floor, then unmodified to attach tiles to the ditra. I am doing this now and that's exactly what the book that came with my ditra mat states...
Actually, that's potentially incorrect. It depends on what the substrate is made of. If your substrate is plywood, then, yes, you'll use a modified thinset. However, if your substrate is concrete you will use an unmodified thinset. Their installation handbook is pretty good, but you need to read the whole thing and make certain you are using the instructions for your particular circumstance.
NewShockerGuy The ONLY reason why you would use Modified thinset when using Ditra is when you are installing directly over wood. Unmodified is used in all other installation situations.
I use laticrete strata mat. Ditra is way over priced.
I've not heard of that product, nor seen it at any of my local tile shops. We have some Laticrete products, but not that one. When I looked it up online it was about 50 cents cheaper per square foot, or $25 in a 50 square foot room. Cheaper, yes, but I wouldn't say dramatically so. Looks like it goes down about the same way as Ditra.
.50 sq ft would be nearly $1000 for my entire new house. I'll take it.
I just tried out both the ditra and strata mat and I liked both but I loved the Prova flex.
So the tile is floating on the plastic. Worst part is this product is more expensive than the flooring going over it.
It is expensive.
You are the only person who could fully explain this product. I couldnt for the life of me figure out why a sheet of corrugated plastic would strengthen a floor.
Its cheaper than demolishing and re doing your tile the right way
The best product out there by far! Well worth the money!!!!
Eh.....just throw down some 30# felt paper. Aren't you using twice as much mortar than usual with this stuff?
Ha! Well, felt paper wouldn't do anything to decouple a cracked slab from tile. Ditra does require more thinset, although that cost is trivial compared to the additional labor. In most instances I still prefer to use 1/4" backerboard under the tile, but if the substrate is sketchy or if I'm anticipating movement in the structure, then Ditra is a great solution. It works as advertised and I've used it in situations where nothing else would do.
I was all
Happy until it says dirta absorbes horizontal movement ,but vertical movement may still be a problem 😩😤😐
The product is designed to absorb or decouple movement due to cracks in concrete or significant wood movement. If you have upheaval vertically, you probably have a bigger problem than just tile!
There are millions of examples of tiling floor for centuries without these on any surface that still haven’t cracked. This in itself can cause other problems. Just another product that the industry is pushing. If your workmanship is done well you don’t need any of this. Look around in nicely built old buildings all over the world. They are there for 100’s of years. Stay away from complicating your life
That's a nice theory, but those ancient buildings were also built very differently. The Ditra product is designed to solve problems with modern buildings. As a remodeler I don't have control over what was built before I got there. If I'm doing a bath or kitchen in a townhouse or condo the slab floor may already be cracked due to slapdash construction originally. The same goes for basement or commercial buildings where the slab has settled or was not supported well originally. In order to tile over what is there, a decoupling mat like Ditra is necessary in order to avoid cracked tiles in the future. Good workmanship now means that you do use products like this to ensure longevity.
This stuff is not necessary plenty of cheaper alternatives that get the job done
If you need an isolation membrane there are a couple of other brands out there, however, none of them are inexpensive.
enduringcharm in the union we used weed barrier as a membrane over cracks and it worked it is very in expensive I have been doing tile for 37 years and I have never had a problem with cracked tiles
That's a new one on me. However, an isolation membrane isn't meant to strengthen the underlayment in the way that mesh or paper tape strengthens a wallboard joint. Instead, the isolation membrane is designed to decouple the tile from the underlayment so that they can move (in small amounts, of course) independently. The keyed waffle pattern allows tile to remain adhered to the membrane, but unaffected if the slab or whatever else underneath moves from cracks or other issues. Other brands work the same way. It's actually not that much more expensive than quality cement backerboard which is replaces.
its over priced
That's one reason I typically use cement backerboard instead. However, when circumstances demand decoupling to prevent cracks it is an option.
You don't know how to pronounce it & you're gonna explain how to use it? That got a laugh out of me. 🙄
Yeah, well, nobody seems to agree on how to pronounce it! The official company name has an umlaut over the U, so it does have a peculiar vowel sound that 'Muricans find difficult. I do, however, know how to put the stuff down in a bath!