Mormon Church Refuses To Acknowledge Racism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มี.ค. 2012
- The Mormon Church may have changed it racist policy, but have they ever really admitted to and apologized for its sin?
14 Fundamentals of Following the Prophet
www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fo...
Washington Post article quoting Professor Randy Bott
www.washingtonpost.com/politic...
Mormon Church's first response to Bott's statements.
www.mormonnewsroom.org/article...
Brigham Young's statements
First Brigham Young quote: Journal of Discourses Volume 7 pages 290-291 (October 9, 1859)
Second Brigham Young quote: Journal of Discourses Volume 10 page 110 (March 8, 1863)
latterdaymainstreet.com/2008/0...
Mormon Church's second response to Bott's statements.
www.mormonnewsroom.org/article...
Salt Lake Tribune quoting "By Common Consent"
www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/536...
By Common Consent blog
bycommonconsent.com/2012/02/29...
Mormonite Musings blog
mormonitemusings.wordpress.com...
BYU Students Plan Protest after Uproar over Professor's Remarks
trevorantley.com/2012/03/01/by...
Church sign maker
www.says-it.com/churchsigns/
Most churches don't apologize for their sins.
Fantastic Video! Keep up the great work!
Really insightful video Keith.
Great stuff, Keith! One of the things that caused me to reject the LDS "gospel" when it was first presented to me in 1970 by my then-future father-in-law was the "curse of Cain" and the church's racist policies (by the way, my father-in-law loved to use the N-word quite frequently!).
Also, after my daughter married an African-America in 1994, she was socially ostracized by everyone in her local ward. She has not been back to the church!
Keep up the good work. See you in Manti in June!
@EvidenceMinistries The process of consensus in the LDS Church is for the apostles and prophet to pray about an issue discuss and answer as the spirit tells them one by one unanimously in a consensus. Thus if there is an error one or more may see it so no ambiguity could be had or missing thought is had. But as with any one with a strong opinion"like Jonah, not willing to budge an official policy was not had on blacks and the priesthood until 1978 after they died.
In the strictest, most literal sense not everyone received the blessings of the Priesthood, but the LDS Church was global at that time and finally big enough to support large congregations abroad. There were practical and spiritual reasons to opening up the Priesthood to all worthy males.
They could not have been called "Christian" before the term even existed, but they were believers.
What does compassion have to do with lies and false doctrines? You don't use your heart to determine Gods truth.
@SpeckCipher I have no idea what you just said.
I appreciate your work
Thanks!
As early as 1859 (perhaps even earlier), Mormon prophets said the day would eventually come when blacks would receive the priesthood. Brigham Young said, "When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." Wilford Woodruff and David O. McKay are also on record for saying similar things.
I agree with your take on the past racism in the past and the church's refusal to properly acklowedge it. It was the rock that started the landslide that lead to my disaffection from the church.
While the Hinckley quote is the closest that they will ever get to apologizing, it is the doctrine of the current church. It is an area where the church has improved itself. Perhaps instead of attempting to trap the church when it moves forward, we should applaud it and encourage more progress.
Pointing out their double standard will only madden them.
For fun, look up "All Are Alike unto God" by Bruce R. McConkie and "Facts about the LDS Church, Blacks & the Priesthood that Cause Some to Struggle" by John P. Dehlin. These will help shed a little light on the reasoning and circumstances of this issue at the time, but the important questions (why and how) won't be answered. I suppose that's where faith needs to come in.
In Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie (unofficially) answered your question: "The negroes are not equal with other races when the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, based on His eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate."
In other words, the policy came from God.
Quick question for EvidenceMinistries: How is Matthew 10:5-6 not a racist passage? Christ specifically withheld his Apostles from the Gentiles and Samaritans.
Over one hundred years of racism dealt out by the LDS and how many of their so-called prophets did not correct the issue while it was being inflicted on the LDS who were black?
I don't know how you got that idea. In 1986 he became the Anglican Primate of South Africa, the spiritual leader of black and white Anglicans. In part from the pressure he brought to bear, Apartheid fell only in 1990. As early as 1972 he held important posts in the so-called white church no black man had ever held before.
(... continued) These former Christians knew exactly what they were supposed to be do and what not to do. They needed a firm call to repentance and a reminder that they wouldn't get a second chance to repent after they die. When I brought up the spirit world, I intended to explain that righteous people of other races and nations who weren't given the chance to accept the gospel of Christ would be given that fair chance after they die. I submit that this also applies to black Mormons before 1978.
I know CURRENT Mormons who think withholding the priesthood is racist.
@SpeckCipher What is it about the statement, "I'm not asking you to apologize." that you do not understand? Here let me try again. I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.I'm not asking you to apologize.
God tempts us to call his bluff. I mean tests us to call his bluff. Some follow his commandments while others cry about it being unfair. Poor Esau.
And you are on your own.
@cheetah168 Again, the "out of context" card is played but not showing HOW this alleged "Hack" took it out of context. Can you please inform us how Brigham Young's statement was taken out of context?
Also, nobody goes to the kingdoms of glory until after the final judgment day. Until then, everybody is waiting in the spirit world, either in a state of paradise or prison. They're given a chance to accept the gospel there, while the living can perform necessary ordinances for salvation for them by proxy (like baptism). While many, many people were unable to enjoy all the blessings of the gospel in this life for various reasons, they will all have the chance to accept them in the next life.
@cheetah168 Are you saying the quotes from Brigham Young are not incendiary?
@SpeckCipher Great Grandfathers, bad analogy. Better one: Does Thomas S. Monson, Bishop From 1950-55, owe an apology to any black member of his ward, community,or world, an apology for being in a position of leadership, supporting and enforcing a racial policy standard set by the church for 28 years? If a black man came to him as a bishop, he would have said, "No priesthood for you, Sorry, you can't baptize your own son, your black. don't worry, I'll get a white and delightsome guy to do it."
Oh oh I know. This smells of new light. ;) Keith where do you get all your cool tshirts?
So... if you dislike this video, does that mean you support racism?
@21crosscheck21 Thanks! Feel free to pass it along.
Basically, I just want to say that I've never considered the withholding of the priesthood to be racist, nor have I met any black Mormons who believed so, either. The Church always intended to extend all blessings to all members when the time was appropriate, which it did.
@aaronshaf2006 Thanks! Feel free to pass it along.
@EvidenceMinistries So As I said "Those that misled the Mormon Church died, or left the Mormon church" there is no need to apologize for those that are currently leading are not guilty of the crime you accuse them of.
Shall I repent of the sin I've never committed or will you hate me for refusing to entertain and confirm your delusion. Why would they be guilty of something they didn't do? Why should they apologies for a crime they didn't commit?
I love Alma 34, and it does not contradict what I said or what was written in D&C 138. Everybody is given a fair and equal chance to hear the gospel, either in this one or the one to come. If you knowingly reject it in this life, then it will not be well with you.
And now I take my leave, seeing as this thread has gotten out of hand. A year ago in these comments I referenced some good articles on racism in the LDS Church. If you're still interested in that.
@jayhawk88z When asked “if the spirits of Negroes were neutral in heaven,” Brigham Young answers, “No, they were not, there were no neutral [spirits] in heaven at the time of the rebellion, all took sides…. All spirits are pure that came from the presence of God. (Journal History, 25 December 1869, citing Wilford Woodruff’s journal.)
@EvidenceMinistries The rest of the LDS Church had not part in it save for whether or not they would sustain the 12 in this action. Most did some did not and they not following the council were racist because of the folklore brought in by other "Christians" at the early start. They are those that need to repent, not the ones who already have.
So I say again, why should the innocent apologize for a crime they didn't commit?
@CelestialMinds
"But my point has great merit."
If what you say here is true, then you should make a video and debate that subject there.
This video points out the racism of the LDS. I could understand why mormons would not want to discuss their racist doctrine.
@EvidenceMinistries The remarks were not incindiary when he said them in 1800s. As I have already posted, at the right time, when the world was able to accept the new revelation, meaning SOCIETY and the Mormons would not be villified or ostracized or beaten or driven from their homes as they were in Missouri and Illinois for their abolitionist stance, they did not ordain blacks to the priesthood (although they originally did). So, when the time was right, the Lord gave revelation to allow all t
If you didn't want to argue, then why did you even bother to post something that as you put it, is " trivial and not really worthy of an argument?" I don't understand that.
In South Africa Tutu was representing Blacks. He was not appointed as a leader of or put in charge of Whites.
That is not a relevant comparison.
@EvidenceMinistries Brigham young was a prophet but like Jonah had his own personal prejudices, but did the job God wanted him to do, and when people from other faiths bring similar traditions in the unofficial policy formed even though at the beginning blacks were given the priesthood. Looking more into Young's doings he actively freed slaves and did said more things that were not racist at all. so I kinda wonder if what you said he said, he said.
@SpeckCipher It is interesting you hold this position. I have seen Pope John Paul II apologize to the Jewish people for not doing more to protect the Jews during he holocaust. Japan recently apologized for the atrocities to the Chinese during the 1930s. Yet LD$, Inc. can't come to the table and apologize for past leaders positions and teachings. Why is that? Is that the LD$ Inc. policy? Wait for the "guilty" to die and demand the free pass?
@SpeckCipher I am not asking you to apologize. I am asking you to pressure your leaders to apologize for misleading the Mormon Church into racism.
So how does that change the fact that your "prophets" who claim to be led by God were carried away into racism for more than 100 years? If you believe Baptists are part of the great apostasy, then wouldn't you expect that kind of behavior? Why would a "prophet of God" be guilty of the same sin as an apostate? That is just more condemnation on your Church.
OK, OK, you dragged me back, only because I find it ludicrous for someone to try to tear down Mormonism with the Book of Mormon.
First point: I said nothing of post-mortal repentance, but post-mortal acceptance. There's a big difference. We are all held accountable for our thoughts, works and deeds performed in this life according to the amount of truth and light we receive.
Second point: Alma 34 is specifically directed at former members of the church who had fallen away. (Continued ...)
@camtep2you Is that speculation or doctrine?
@SpeckCipher How do you justify telling some one to apologies for something they did not do?
He let himself be put in a position to be discriminatory. He became an apostle (term used loosely) thus, endorsing the priesthood ban on blacks.
So what if he lived in Utah. I would propose the ban/racial attitude of LD$ Inc. during the civil war was the reason that slaves did not look for refuge among the "Saints", The Underground Railroad did not end in Salt lake for a reason.
@jal84084 It was written in the mid 1800s. What context would you like to put it in post 1969? Brigham Young did not incite anyone to persecute blacks and did not call them "less than human" or any of the other things that many people of that era were saying and doing to blacks. Members of the Church were not allowed to be slave owners. When slave owners brought their slaves to Utah, they were encouraged to Free Them - these slave owners were not members of the Mormon Church.
Wow. A reply nine months later! I had given up on defending my faith on TH-cam, as it really seemed pointless (is anyone going to change their opinion based on a TH-cam comment?). But I'm bored and can't sleep now, so what the heck. --- I think there is a large misunderstanding of racism and discrimination nowadays, even within the LDS Church. Using rather broad definitions, you could argue the Church is racist, sexist, bigoted, discriminatory and exclusive. Same with the Bible.
A curse is just a form of words that people say about their enemies. Since magic doesn't work, it doesn't have any effect. So what is your point?
@EvidenceMinistries You never answered my question. If BY *did* say what I said he said, would you condemn him as a racist?
This is how I see it. No matter if it was a racist thing or not there were not many members outside of Utah and there were not many non whites in Utah. They were kind of blind to it. Say thing happen with the Missouri Extermination Order. It was on the books until 1970's. Why? There was just no reason to change it. Yet it is the LDS that get flack for their adherence that people see as racism.
I've answered the question and you don't get it. The heart and evidence free spiritualism will lead a person to believe that God contradicts himself; that polygamy and blood atoning a murderer is necessary to pay for sin.
You can't feel the spirit? Congratulations for staying on your meds.
@yourelameface Because is not to be taken away overnight and that is also a test to you and me, love one another no matter what "color" or how pretty you or them are.
@EvidenceMinistries No, just a contemporary Christian.
@SpeckCipher If BY *did* say what I said he said, would you condemn him as a racist?
@EvidenceMinistries And Ham had married a woman from the seed of Cain, so we see that God allowed the seed of Cain to be still upon the earth but prevent them from holding the Holy Priesthood Genesis 9:20-27
Hebrews 11:1
@CelestialMinds *sigh* You just can't do it can you? You completely avoid the subject of Mormonism by bringing up other religious texts, Rick Santorum, and Newt Gingrich. WOW! It never ceases to amaze me at what lengths Mormons will go to avoid the real issue that their religion is racist.
You've been warned a number of times and I have been gracious in allowing you to continue this off topic rant. I am open to discussing the content of this video or any of my other videos with you, but nothing else. Either stick to the topic of Mormon racism here or be blocked. My guess is that you will once again reply off topic and take getting blocked as some twisted badge of accomplishment. It's not that hard. Stick to the topic and stay. That is what I prefer. Your choice.
@r8rfanizme Talk is cheep, action is not. To charge the innocent with fees they did not incur is unjust. Hatred should never be inherited nor should sorrow or pain.
So to answer your question, if the guilty are dead why should the innocent be charged?
If your great grandpa did wrong to my great grandma how do you owe me an apology? They aren't us, you didn't do it to me, why should I be upset with you and ask for reapportions for something you didn't do?
the Hittites were cursed!
@SpeckCipher Here is what I hear you saying.
1 Brigham Young cannot be a prophet because he led the people astray into racism.
2 Prophets are so weak that they subject themselves to the stubbornness of the Mormon people because they cannot get them to do anything unless there is a consensus among the people.
Compare them to the prophets in the Old Testament. I am not asking you to apologize for anyone other than yourself. YOU need to go to your leaders and hold them accountable.
Here's a new clip that talks about belief. watch "Thinking About Mormonism, by Brett Kunkle"
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: Your feelings cannot be trusted. Jesus had a very negative passion when he said that false teachers were vipers and children of Satan. Speaking poorly about another church? Mormonism is a counterfeit that must be confronted. We have been commanded to do so.
@SpeckCipher Again. I am not asking you to apologize. I am asking you to pressure your leaders to apologize for misleading the Mormon Church into racism. According to your church, it is part of the repentance process. If they cannot admit that it was racism, your leaders have NEVER REPENTED of it. This would included the ones who are still alive.
@CelestialMinds Sure. Change the subject. Stick to the issue of the racist doctrine of the Mormon Church. aren't they suppose to be led by prophets?
@jonnygotz2343 Being a Levite isn't a matter of race. If God was not racist, then who is responsible for the racism in Mormonism?
From the conference pulpit, "I believe was Hinkley" stated that ancient manuscript and archaeolgical evidence is not necessary for an lds members faith. He said our faith, our salvation rests upon a 14 year old boy who restored the church. Not Jesus. Jesus is not sufficient for salvation and eternal life. The savior of Mormonism is the church.
It seems like you are every other child asks this question... yet at the same time believe it is true with the birth of the Savior. Isaiah 9:6
I can see the land of Israel and it's people. 2 Cumorahs & laman are dubious names. I'm trite because I would shelve Jrs. buried treasure & Moroni in the fiction section and fulfilled prophecy on the historical shelf? A devining rod is not the Word of God. Josephs rod and priesthood were props. Both were used to support his desire for power and women. Counter is calling "fiction-fact" as well as obedience to law & ordinance to merit grace. Trying to purchase grace is not good news
"Either you can provide evidence of talking donkeys and men living in fish or the scripture simply cannot be true (according to your premise)"?
That is a straw man and it never was my premise. Biblical evidence? Yes. The Old and New Ts. point straight to Jesus Christ who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me". He also said, "if you try to climb up another way, "through myths and secret handshakes" you are a thief and a robber" Are you a thief?
When you can show that racist protestants claimed to be prophets of God speaking racism in His name, then you might have a point. Until then, you are guilty of the Tu Quoque fallacy. Look it up.
@r8rfanizme And now that the actions are different, the hypothetical situation is no longer nor to my knowledge ever was, and he does not hold to what was thought previous why should he apologize. You do realize he did live in Utah and even to day there are very few black people living there. I've never seen an Asian until after I graduated high school only because of my location then.
How do you justify telling some one to apologies for something they did not do?
@EvidenceMinistries God was not a racist, but did tell the israelites not to mix with the Hittites because of their race! Does that make him racist! Or to say if your from the Tribe of Levi, you can work in the temple, but the rest of the Jews couldnt?
So what part of god is a racist if we believe it to be from god? I hope not just based on brigham's comments. Cause god has had preferences to people before.
Africans did not embrace Christianity until the mid to late 1800's, and then the majority of Africans and African Americans did not embrace the Mormon church as a Christian church until the mid 70's. But these things are trivial and not really worthy of an argument, unless your a person with an argumentative spirit...Paul wrote to the Galatians: By their fruits you will know them... Rings true even today
are you an Ex mormon ? If so, after leaving the church, do you still believe in God, and when I say God I mean the expectation that you are more than just a physical body and when it rans out of energy and die you still exist on some other plane of existence in this universe ?
but it's not only the priesthood the blacks couldn't particpate... the temple too... no blacks were allowed the blessings of the temple... it's like saying you're not worthy for salvation because you're black.. WHERE DID B.YOUNG got the idea for God's sake ???
1 Blacks were originally allowed the priesthood and ordained but external beliefs came into LDS faith with converts, even Brigham Young, causing racism among other things.
2 People are stubborn and the distinction that it's actually of God through consensus so there is no question of validity. 3 See 2 4See 1
Why should I apologize for some one else? I ain't them; I didn't do it to you or anyone. Why charge me?
But they were not CURSED.
Do you mean they hold the priesthood from a baby-drowning mythological sky demon, or from a pedophile confidence trickster? I never get that straight.
@EvidenceMinistries Racism is a "new word" that is usually associated with "hate crimes". Mormons have never been racist in the sense you wish to purport them to be. Mormons have been kind and tolerant and loving towards ALL people of all creeds, cultures, nationality, skin color, language, whatever you wish to put forward.
I would like to know when YOUR church first began having a black pastor in a white congregation?
The prejudism that you call racism ran deep among all people for centuries
Racism is a horrible sin. It is hating the image of God.
@CelestialMinds Your "point" consists of two logical fallacies called "red herring" and "tu quoque." I will not allow you to distract people from the point of THIS video. Stick to the subject or have your comments deleted. Last Chance. Isn't the LDS Church supposed to be led by prophets? If so, how could they lead the Church astray into racism for more than 100 years?
@EastGateShut I get them from Kerrusso.
Making an observation about your lack of familiarity of the Tu Quoque fallacy is not a slight on your intelligence. I did assume you were LDS though as too many Mormons use your same line of argumentation. If I'm intolerant, then move along, just consider this. The word intolerance means that one must disagree with something. If my disagreeing with others outside of my world view makes me intolerant, then doesn't you disagreeing with me also make YOU intolerant?
@SpeckCipher There is nothing wrong to hold LD$ Inc. accountable." Holding them accountable is promoting hatred?
Lets make a comparison: Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, but people who spread his hatred are guilty by association. Same with Monson, he is guilty of upholding, supporting and defending the beliefs of LD$ Inc. should he apologize, or say as the defendants in the Nuremberg trials stated, Ï was just following orders.
@cheetah168 But until 1978, God was a racist, right?
@EvidenceMinistries IS DOCTRINE AND READ AND GOD NEEDS NOT TO APOLOGIZE FOR WHAT HE TELLS HIS PROPHETS TO SAY OR DO
Racists would have had their false and pernicious beliefs challenged. To speak about an actual religion (still false but not a mere confidence trick), the Pope should have appointed all black Bishops in the american south at that time. Look at the effect Tutu had in South Africa.
@cheetah168 Aren't you glad God removed the racist doctrine?
that's why you see men & women of all races marrying blacks & other peoples of the middle eastern cultures whom are "non white"
@EvidenceMinistries Those that misled the Mormon Church died, or left the Mormon church.
I say a third time, why should the innocent apologize for a crime they didn't commit?
You seem to be one who would encourage self hatred of a black quarter native American German Jew with ancestry of northern and southern states to hate them-self for something others did or had with each other without rime or reason to personal self worth or sanity. Dude, the war is over. Learn to love one another.
My logic is sound. You probably didn't even know what a Tu Quoque fallacy was until I told you to look it up. I don't have to be a mind reader to prove that you are deflecting and not addressing the content of the video. Where in your last few comments have you said ANYTHING about Mormon racism? Stick the the subject. Brigham Young was a racist and your Church has named their University after a racist. Are you proud of that?
So blind faith works for you? The heart and feelings are deceptive. Feelings have led many to believe that god is superman. Feelings have deceived people to commit adultery and practice polygamy
@CelestialMinds If you were as formidable of an opponent in matters of common sense and logic as you say you are, then you would have recognized your own logical fallacies before I had to point them out to you. Common sense dictates that if you are warned for making off topic comments and you want to remain in the conversation, then you stick to the subject instead of trying to blame me for the rules. But, this was your choice and I will honor it. You've been blocked.
By today's political correct standards, yes, early LDS leaders were racist and sexist and otherwise bigoted. But Moses was racist, too, and even Jesus Christ said and did some things that technically speaking are racist. But just as Christ withheld the gospel from certain people during his Earthly ministry, the Lord withheld certain blessings from certain people for a time. It wasn't forever. Why? Who knows? Perhaps it goes back to ancient curses and prophecies. God's ways are not man's ways.
Your intention was to divert attention from the problem of Mormon racism to Christian racism. That by definition is a Tu Quoque fallacy and therefore I cannot embrace its validity. Like I said, when you can show that racist protestants claimed to be prophets of God speaking racism in His name, then you might have a point. Stick to the issue of Mormon racism.