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The Old Game Was BS Too, Don't Believe the Hype
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2021
- streamed May 10, 2021
• In ST...damdai never f...
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#FGC #Sajam #StreetFighter #GuiltyGear #MortalKombat
![[UNCUT] เพื่อไทยดันอุ๊งอิ๊งนั่งนายกฯ หลังเศรษฐาถูกถอดถอน | คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ | 15 ส.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SpprmDJ6QEE/mqdefault.jpg)
I used to be with "it", but then they changed what "it" was. Now what I'm with isn't "it" anymore and what's "it" is weird and scary!!
IT'LL HAPPEN TO YOU!!
I knew I would see this somewhere
Omg lmfao. Needed this.
Also, I could swear this has to be a reference of some kind.
@@theWIIISEguy Simpsons quote.
@@Omla33 Thanks.
No way man!!! We're gonna keep dive-kicking *FOREVER!!!* FOREVER...Forever...forever......
Biggest mistake of my childhood was blindly listening to what the grown ups said on the internet, just because they were older than me.
Boy, I was grown ups in the internet, and I was full of shit
I think your biggest mistake was putting spider man and monokuma in the same picture.
@@ekkusu9493 ya know... Your right
Spiderman plus sonic obsession just might be the plateau of autism, shooooooo.
@@TB-eb3vm goddammit those are my two favorite things
"The damage is too high in the new games" Super turbo throws would like to know your location...
And God help you if it's a mashing throw.
world warrior everything would like to know your location lol
Super turbo in general. Akuma HP DP doing 90%.
Is that game where you would get stunned after getting hit by two fireballs also?
@@null-wq5cp Not sure if that's true, but SF2 from WW to ST (possibly even Ultra SF2) has a number of random factors.
The damage is not totally random, but there is a degree of potential variance for that and stun among other things: sonichurricane.com/articles/sf2randomness.html
Remember friends, there is exactly ONE good Fighting game that has ever been made. Sonic the Fighters.
shrek super slam wants a word with you
Nah bro, Sonic Battle on the GBA is the best fighting game of all time
dont you mean Yie Ar Kung Fu
False. The correct answer is Dong Dong Never Die.
Nah, Clayfighter is the real GOAT, no question asked
Clearly games only get worse over time and we should all go back and play fair and honest Pong.
Pong is for scrubs. Real fighting game veterans have been playing tennis for two since it came out in 1958
Nice n awnisst
I once got wake up DPed on Pong
Legend says that pong was the alpha build of lethal league
You're such a casual, you need to play mechanical fire control director for battleships '44
Respect your elders...unless they said Super Turbo was an honest game
Or Mvc2
@@sebastianswan7975 Wait, does anyone say that?
All old Capcom fg's
@@doolioart3314 Yes. It was honest back in the day, because it was the first of its kind and we all sucked ass
@@doolioart3314 yes. People even say MVC2 had good music. Nostalgia is a stronger drug than cocaine
Daily reminder that in Guilty Gear: The Missing Link Sol Badguy had a combo into his instant kill. In that game instant kills ended the match and could be preformed on any round. Not the round, the entire best of 3 match.
And ggml is still fun regardless
Find old forum posts about Xrd Sign. You can find complaints that look identical to complaints about Strive lol. “Xrd has no neutral, it’s killed guilty gear, X2 was better and perfectly balanced, etc”
The ground based footsies gg is known for
I thought the skill floor was complained about in strive
xrd is simplified compared to xx, but its also mostly streamlined and still feels a lot like xx, strive changed a lot more fundamental things than xrd did, but who knows maybe the next guilty gear will have people say that strive was the best and the new is the bad one
@@dj_koen1265 I thought to myself "no way people will say SF6 is killing Street Fighter and SFV was the perfect game that required real skill" and yet like a month after SF6 launched I read posts exactly like that. GG5 will have no neutral and be the death of Guilty Gear and Strive will be retconned into peak GG. Every time a new fighting game comes out, it's old thing good, new thing bad.
lmao I've never seen that Damdai interview before but as soon as he said he never feels helpless in ST and doesn't have to deal with nonsense mixups, I could immediately tell what it was leading up to
Funny thing is, there's a another character that can do endless vortex like that, but with grabs.
@@James-pb8xu Most characters can escape throw loops
Damdai fucked up his reversal uppercuts. He didn't lose because the mixup was too cheap
@@arturoliu1219 Not exactly sure how special inputs in ST work, but wouldn't the sideswitching parts of the mixup cause his input to instead become 421 when he is crossed over, instead of the proper 623 he needs to DP? Then he'd need to react to the mixup *and* input DP before he gets hit.
Haha... I was like "oh it's gonna be Claw dive loops, right?"
Getting the shading on my rose-tinted glasses re-done every few years isn't free. You bet your ass I'm gonna talk about it
u should probably just buy new glasses
I remember when being called an 09'ner was the biggest of insults. Now people act as if SF4 was some godly gift to fighting games
It was tho
Considering it sorta revived the FGC, kinda. It's not perfect, but it's important.
@@captainmalice it's a bitf a half lie though. More mainstream relevance. If anything, less ips,indies,, and innovation are less happening than the 2000s. KOF,Melty, 3dFGs, emulation, and Guilty Gear was always there and SFIV's online was bad. So a lot of it was never expanding past SF.
#Captain Malice, I don’t think that was the point of the comment.
Thats because it was. A lot of us love fighting games for its technical and difficulty aspects. In a lot of ways, SF4 is God tier. SF4 was a hell of a lot harder than SF5. SF4 had frame one links for bread and butter combos for fucks sake. Even with the shortcuts added for specials, SF4 is probably going to go down as an extremely challenging game to master, while still being 'alright' for the casual player. Much, much harder than SF5's face bashing aggro fest it was before they FINALLY gave players a decent defensive option.
Now when you look at SF5, except for the V-Shift patch, you're going to find the reverse. SF5 is an incredible experience to the casual FGCer, but no where near as good for the high end competitive players.
I think the issue here is that when SF5 rotates out and SF6 comes in, everyones going to remember the V-Shift patch, and Saj is going to be "right", but only for a very small portion of SF5's lifespan. In reality, SF5 really did suck major donkey ass, and SF4 was a hell of a lot better for a hell of a lot longer than SF5 is going to be.
in regards to sf4: "the set ups were dumb, it was baby game, it was too easy"
sf5 comes out
"sf4 was the pinnacle of fighting games. the goat of fighting games. so technical. so difficult."
hhhhmmmmmm i couldve sworn a certain sparrow said something along those lines when he compared sf4 and sf5
Sf6 comes out : "sfV is the best street fighter, this new street fighter is shit"
streetfighter players confirmed to be cod players.
Ltg is a exception, dude complains about everything
I wonder if these are actually the same people though. Like, the people that hated SF4 don't really have much of a reason to still shit on SF4 because basically no one talks about it anymore, so the only people who do remain to talk about it are the people that enjoyed it.
Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if its the same people. People are wack.
@@coolcool5181 I think there has to be an overlap, a lot of people just go with the flow of "new bad", due to how comfortable they are with the old. Then they reluctantly try the new thing because it's current and there's decent player base and twitch streams and tournaments etc, then they get used to it, then years pass and the cycle repeats with the new title.
Of course, a lot of people are just doing this once, with one title, usually their baptism in fire one, because of rose-tinted glasses.
Sometimes it's inevitable, it's similar to music. Metallica changes style - people feel betrayed. I absolutely hated ST when it came out and it wasn't a blind hate either, I could argue my stance for hours if needed lol
Whenever I see the word "honest" in the context of describing a fighting game or character that isn't used in a joking manner, I just instinctively roll my eyes
"Honest" usually means "I don't lose to it".
Thats sounds like someone's ego talking lol.
Filia from Skullgirls is an honest character. In her dialogue. :P
God I can't believe I used to be like this because I followed the SFV hate train and went with whatever agreed with that point. So happy that I'm not an oldhead anymore
It is still important to consider that games change and that the quality of life improvements and character additions are a huge deal besides people getting more used to the systems.
The most interesting train in Street Fighter is actually for the SF3 series since it seemed to get a ton of love off the back of Moment 37 (almost exclusively for 3rd Strike) and while people say that it was bad, there isn't much documentation besides the roster not having many SF2 classic characters (which Alpha, EX and Vs games did) and how Capcom fighting games were doing worse at the time but the best port at the time was on the Dreamcast.
A lot of people like to blame it for killing the series but there isn't a lot of discussion of merits from the time. It was a huge flip from fireballs being strong in ST, so I get that some people weren't too into it.
@@thelastgogeta truth
@@thelastgogeta to piggy back on the SF3 Example, Tekken, Virtua fighter and other 3D fighters were dominating at the time, and since 3rd strike did not have a home release till like 4 years after it's release, it didn't really got much interest back then.
Except SFV was a joke and only because it's an evo main stage game forced competitors to play to make their money.
2 + years it was nothing but a glorified/stripped down tourney build. The game wasn't finished until years after launch. Busted ass CC, shitty online. Etc.
SFV can't end fast enough.
It's not bad being an oldhead, it's bad just stubbornly pushing in a direction due to habit or repulsion to new approaches. You can be a wise oldhead, for example!
This is like LTG talking about how sfiv is better than V but he also hated that game back in the day saying 3s was better
The ST clip is evergreen for fighting game discourse lol
ST has so much stupid dumb shit. Like every character has a crazy OS or mixup. Claw has the clip shown, Boxer has this anti air that goes into a tick throw. Honda has negative edge Oicho mixups. T. Hawk has some fucked up OS in the corner. Those are the ones I remember but I am not good at ST and it's fucked up.
Oichio os and T.hawk Os aren’t even mixups, those are just inescapable loops lol. Lets not forget bullshit like a single jumpin potentially stunning and killing you too
ST was not a game meant for Human consumption
What they truly mean is easy to understand: "I just don't like the newer game".
And that's fine by me, but they should be a little bit more honest sometimes...
Some people just need to write a paragraph to justify their opinion instead of just saying "I don't like it"
@@RogueCheepSheep It's fine if they write their paragraphs as long as they are fair and honest with what they say.
If they come with bullshit they need to be called out for it.
Half the time they secretly like it
definitely easier to understand, but gotta admit, it's harder to win in older games. it's like they forgot to add room for making little mistakes.
Man, it drove me crazy seeing like that one millisecond where everyone went from "I'm only playing SF4 because people are playing SF4" to "I wish people were still playing SF4." It was like I suddenly woke up in the Berenstein universe.
Berenstain.
All of them want new games, they just don’t want those games to come out
they want the old games again
@@PakuTheMagnificent WITH MUH ROLLBACK LETS GOOO
sorry I just had to say it. I dont mind rollback honestly. Problem is... my internet connection is so shit lol.
More like building upon a base rather than ripping out the foundation each generation
Everyone knows the best SF was SF1. It had awesome footsies and doing specials wasn't free like the games that came after, you had to spend the time to get good and it was amazing. 😋
Perfect game since there aren't any filler characters like Chun-Li (costume bait) or Sagat (doesn't deserve to be playable after what he did to me). The story is simple and to the point, before the shotos don't wear shoes retcon.
New games are scrubby because we are literally learning how to play them. Every game will seem deeper after there's 10+ years of knowledge and playing it at a higher level.
We also have in-depth TH-cam videos, Discord groups, and even programs that tell us exactly how plus or minus moves are. The learning curve is much lower than it used to be because we get information fed to with within the first week of the games release.
When I clicked this video, the first thing that popped into my head was "Super Turbo has randomized damage values".
I love old fighters a *lot* and Super Turbo is cool. Grew up with tons of different games and still play them. Still, can't deny the truth.
When I first heard of randomised damage and stun values in ST, I almost had a fit. I had been convinced that Smash was the only thing with random elements but even that series allows you to control almost all of it (tripping in Brawl aside 😂).
I really want to know the motivation behind it since it can't have been an accident. Odds are that other games have elements like this that people aren't talking about too even if it doesn't mean that the game isn't worth playing, it is worth knowing.
@@thelastgogeta Well, if you think about it, there probably wasn't much of an emphasis on super-competitive play, or fairness, at the time. Randomness could serve to make the game unpredictable. Nowadays, an announcer in a tournament will be able to say "this will definitely kill" but the uncertainty due to small damage variation was probably seen as an exciting idea at the time. It would cause tension because even a pro would be legitimately unsure if a move might kill or not.
There may have also been small glitches due to things like frame skip that could cause random values to sometimes occur. For example, Superfreeze in SF2 is inconsistent, so Ryu has a combo that only works half the time.
sonichurricane.com/articles/sf2randomness.html
Oh yeah, the age of the game is entirely relevant here. The average enthusiast would not have the ability to dissect a console game to that degree, let alone an arcade board, and fighting game design was in relative infancy. Modern games have tons of analytics built in, while in the 90s the community didn't even have *third party* external tools to pick it apart to the level we can now. This was probably seen by the developers as an interesting mechanic to keep matches fresh or something, if I had to guess!
I highly doubt there are abundant, if any, mechanics hidden from modern titles. Fighting games are no longer a wild west and players are more equipped than ever to pick apart every last piece of programming in old and new titles alike.
@@jimbo5266 Gosh, I forgot about 512 Guard and 512 Special... I totally get where they were coming from in concept since we still have a mix of deliberate cases of exciting unpredictability with Crush Counters and V Triggers (Ultras were similar) and accidental things like a SFV combo which only works on one side (I assume it was fixed and have to apologise for not having a source to hand, it is probably lost in my watch history or playlists).
Still there are some things that seem more like the developers being cheeky than anything.
Thanks for reminding me about the Sonic Hurricane website, I've got to archive some things just in case.
As a wee young boy playing Blanka at the time, you didn't have to tell me twice. I'm gonna electricity no matter what was happening; especially if they got close.
if anything the new games aren't bs enough. If a game doesn't have a mixup that has me looking like I just smelled the wettest of farts I become sad
You know the smell of the game, I see.
This isn't weird, but sometimes it gets pretty blatant. This just shows that people rarely make a mental pause before assessing certain things, because even a fifth of a second pause would allow a person to realize that their mantra isn't true.
7:25 "you guys wont know wats dealing with an elphelt" testament, zappa, op potemkin and a aba main smiling in the distance
Please grab a bunch of clips, it would be sooooo worth it.
3S got the same treatment. "No neutral, no footsies, too random, can't throw fireballs, parry too strong can't even attack. Now it has attained a deific status. I remember when I didn't like SF4, I just didn't play it and kept playing what I did like.
This can be applied to SO MANY gaming communities. People just need to find what they like and enjoy it. Like why can't you just enjoy what you like and not compare?
Sajam should put all of these videos in a playlist lmao
Reminds me of people complaining about Strive lacking "the grounded neutral footsies everybody loved GG for".
I thought all of that was satire
@@weedmantrudeau5783
I thought so too, until I actually had a discussion with someone who basically thought the same thing, albeit with much better wording.
Still, could be one of those "long time Guilty Gear fans" who never played the game
Yah I remember learning +r during the beta, it's like 50/50 air ground depending on character and mu. I can see it being footsies based because if you when neutral you often take the round, as for honest nah. 🤣
I perfected grounded footsies in xrd, my air tatami gaeshis were impeccable.
Ive never spent more than 2 seconds on the ground in GG unless i was playing slayer
Any game I lose at is BS. That is the rule.
Shit really really went downhill when they introduced these new "arcade cabinets" The real shit was "tennis for two" fighting game PEAK. You scrubs that weren't there in 1958 wouldn't understand
Agreed, but don't sleep on Spacewar. That game was the real shit.
I think with the Damdai thing, at least in his grandad game he knows what’s happening. Even though it’s BS he knows the tech. In the new fangled kids game his old man mind is just blown and he has no idea what’s going on.
I think this is on point. ST is basically completely figured out. There are no real secrets, and we know why things are happening. There are very few to no surprises.
Thats what Sajam says in the video 4:56
That thread about +R not having a busted character like Elphelt is so wrong, every character is busted in their own way in +R
I play ABA. Moroha Mode existing at all is way more fucked up than anything Elphelt does
@kaleidoslug7777 who needs a health bar when you have Morohau?
Sajam is right, but its a bit frustrating when legit discussion (and criticism) about games and design gets categorized like this becuase so much of the conversation is crap. But to be fair, it seems like the good discussions are hard to find. Comparing a new game's direction and changes to the old version and discussing how that may change the series is interesting, and an informed discussion can probably help people in the way they think about a particular set of mechanics/design.
I had lots of good discussions about sf4 and sfv with people, usually it's not hard to "sense" if the person legitimately has arguments and wants an exchange or they're just spewing some mantra-filled stuff because they are emotionally driven.
This is why twittershit should be ignored.
There is plenty of room for legitimate dialogue, the issue is that it rarely exists. Also once somebody makes an excellent point, it gets repeated in lazy/untrue ways over and over for forever until it's not even really applicable.
Emotionally driven and attached people can be scary sometimes...
@@SupermanSajam yeah exactly, although it has been helpful to listen to better players than myself explain things I felt, but couldn't find the words to say. Idk about other people, but its pretty easy to tell when fg players are spouting bs lol.
Dude Justin Wong doesn’t mash he just puts the exact button inputs that he wants every single time.
I've lost the count of people that obviously never played Thirds Strike claiming it is perfection incarnate.
It is a fantastic game, for sure, but you have to make the effort to not devolve into Chun mirrors, because she's super BUSTED in that one.
As much as I love 3rd strike, 3rd strike easily resolves into Yun and Chun LI party, with a bit of Ken.
No one plays Ryu competitively in 3rd Strike?
@@lucaswibisono1316 Not really. It's an uphill battle for him most of the time.
@@zegim vanao does, but vanao is busted himself.
Who is here from the future, having watched the Sajam's MenaRD tweet video?😂
I'm 36 and I can't remember any fighting game I played where you couldn't mash to beat the hell out of someone
Especially since sf2 came out and everyone started dipping their toes in the (arguably) new genre and there was bunch of experimentation and balance was absolutely bonkers in 90% of games. Like, play Shogun Warriors for five minutes and tell me there's one normal thing about that game lol
"Back in my day there were no bullshit characters because there was only one character, and there were no bullshit moves because the characters didn't have moves. Stare Fighter 2: Hyper Gazing will never be topped."
that Vega setup is one of those unholy things from classic ST
I believe they also call this the Zelda Cycle, where Zelda games are for whatever reason looked back at either favorably or negatively in a predictable fashion based on how long ago the game released.
"The damage wasn't that high"
*LAUGHS IN SF2 WW*
This is an epic topic for a video! I'm also glad that you used Super Turbo as an example! Look, the SF2 series/Super Turbo is my absolute favorite game, and quite possibly my favorite video game ever made. It's the game that I am the most knowledgeable about. That being said, I can admit that there are some things in the game that are incredibly cheap or frustrating (Vega's wall dives, Balrog's headbutt loops, Honda's Ochio loops, fighting Honda without a projectile, playing as Honda against a character with a projectile), and can be really frustrating to play against. I also feel that a lot of the things that people complain about in newer fighting games that were present in Super Turbo, and in other older games. In the end, I feel that all fighting games have their B.S. moments, and it's up to the individual player as to what they find acceptable enough or overly frustrating.
The thing that pisses me off is that for the amount of people that praise the old old games, a huge percentage of them don't even attempt to go back n play the game they "like". FC2, PCSX2 and NullDC are literally right there IT AIN'T THAT HARD NO MORE! It's like anime fans "playing" Guilty Gear at this point istg.
Yeah, people LOVE to bring up older games as the gold standard. More times than not, they're more fucked up than the recent game.
@@Handlerhandlerhand To piggyback, I think lots of people get rose tinted glasses with older games because of the state they were in at the time, with fighting games for instance, lots of people may say that the older titles were more simple than the newer ones because they were ignorant to the tech that the older titles had when they were playing the game.
I always enjoyed sfv but thought it sucked because I read some random comments saying it sucks.
Turns out the game doesn't suck and almost every pro player out there prefers sfv over sf4.
This is accurate, except in the case of Garou.
Nothing screams footsies more than half the cast having 0-frame supers
Haoh... Shokoken!
Ngl J.D. into 0-frame super won so many matches for me.
"Mashing doesn't work in old games"
*LAUGHS IN MVC1-2*
Yeah I've seen people talking about MKX of all games like this and it boggles my mind. People really forgot how fucked up that game was lol
Tekken 7 has been around so long that people say seasons 1 and 2 were great and 3 and 4 are trash
Tekken 7 S4 is way too bloated. And the funny thing is, that the more moves you give to a character they more similar they become to each other. Because the more moves you add the closer they get to being a jack of all trades. So not only do you need to learn more moves, but character themselves becomes less interesting and less unique. That is what I like about Guilty Gear design, is that by having only a few moves you can create character that are very different from each other. It is kinda amazing that they managed to balance out +R as good as they did, considering how different the cast is.
After that Damdai interview you should have showed him explaining O. T Hawk inescapable option selects from a safe jump.
Haha... that is only "fair" because 1) Everyone has busted stuff, 2) the execution needed is so high even the best players can't get it all the time... placing O Hawk at like only a C tier pick IF you are cracked.
Alternate title: "things were better back in the day" and other dumb things people say
Now see back in my day we had to negative edge tiger knee on the just frame to get a DP, all roads were uphill both ways and there was no rollback instant rematching. You kids and your modern antics wouldn't last an afternoon
well well well
the cycle repeats
I love ST II, but that throw range + tons of insane stuff mean they will always be wild. KOF always made true hit strings block the whole string. Boot up kof 94, block a jab, then mash jab and you will block the rest of their string.
I'm really digging the beard growing out, looks slick.
5:43 If anything, mashing on defense was better in the old games because they didn't have buffer, so you couldn't just do frame perfect frame traps and setups consistently
The end translation : The old game is how I'm familiar with playing. Because I have to change up, and change is scary, I perfer my old game.
There was a hot moment in early Marvel 3 where the prevailing thought was damage was TOO LOW and the damage needed to be increased in options to keep up with Marvel 2 damage. Everything is Rose Colored Glasses
You remember grand finals at Evo that year though? The whole tournament people were timing out.
It wasn't really cause the damage was too low (though I think they cranked it up in UMVC3 or something), people just didn't know what they were doing and surprise, that makes the game kinda boring to watch
Core-A said that when it comes to Street Fighter, there is no clear way to tell what the game series is really about. And because of that, I think when people say stuff like "The older games were better" They say that they like how the game operates, rather than just flat out saying that one is better than the other due to arbitrary reasons. As a more Footsie-based, and neutral heavy player, SF3 series is my goddamn jam, so of course I'd be inclined to believe that SF3 is the best, because its my personal recommendation of a fighting game. Plus its the 2nd most popular game to Palmod, only being beat out by Jojos.
My first fighter was sf4. I was only around during the AE2012 days and dipped out a little before ultra come out.
I didn't really follow the fgc outside of watching Evo and some capcom pro tour stuff until Sajam started popping up in my recommends. So, seeing as I was out of the loop for some years, coming back and seeing all these people giving sf4 neck has been pretty wild to say the least.
"I dont have to deal with ibuki mixups or zeth mixups" sAYS THE GUY PLAYING THE GAME WITH THE JANKIEST THROWS EVER
That part made me laugh too
The "Y'know" right after the Damdai getting shenaniganned by Vega was 2gud. Frame perfect comedic timing.
crazy that the same video has to be made every few years.
Very accurate, when I was younger playing SF2 in the arcade I would mash twin lariat with zangief, most ordinary people had no idea what to do about it. Mashing was very common back then. As for older games having broken shit, they definitely do, just look at mvc2 on r cvs2 those 2 games had mad busted shit, infinites, unblockables on tag, unreactable mix and insane damage. I'm old as hell but not blind by nostalgia.
I feel like I'm doing this backwards.
I always look back with "You know... Wow, Metaknight/Bayonetta/Aquaman/Aquaman again/Azwel/etc. were fucked up. That last game had some horseshit. Glad I won't have to deal with it anymore." as I move onto the new bullshit.
Part of the benefit of being a casual fighting game fan is you always have fun. For all these dorks complaining about Strive, I'm just sitting here like "Dang all these characters are cool. All this music is great. Look at these crazy stages. This is awesome." I had fun in GGX, GGXX, GGXrd, and I'm gonna have a great time in Strive.
Expectations not being met will make this happen over and over
The only thing I can really say the older games definitively do better is single player content, and even that entirely depends on what game we're talking about. Hidden characters, mini games, secret unlocks, boss characters, that's the one thing I want back most of all.
“Old games don’t have the bs that new games have”
Me playing JoJo HFTF: yeah ok
10 power bar, Hol Horse (with Hangman assist or maybe Boingo) being stupidly OP, Kakyoin trap loop etc
Any other things to add on the list?
@@lucaswibisono1316 the existence of pet shop, dio doing 80% with good execution, vanilla ice and neo kak instant overheads, tandems, then you got the low tiers just playing a video game
What about Joseph? Especially his playable young version?
I heard he's broken af.
@@lucaswibisono1316 he’s not amazing, his supers kinda suck, and he doesn’t have anything inherently busted, but he’s a functional Rushdown character.
@@kwiiwie4977 also what do you mean by "then you got the low tiers just playing a video game"?
Do they end up being too gimmicky or something more simple like how bad their frames, supers and others are? I only played Jotaro and Avdol for the most part so I dont know much.
The truth is all videogames are bad. We tricked you. It was all an elaborate ruse.
the only honest fighter is pong - characters were balanced, stages didn't matter, and no one had any comeback mechanics
People be like: "bruh, the damage in tekken 7 is so high, I miss old tekken". As if tekken 5, tekken 6, TEKKEN TAG 2 didn't exist. In tekken 5 you could die from one wall combo lmao
Tekken 3 damage was sky high. Lei's 3,3 kick only could take half of your health bar
Tekken 2 and 5's Devil + Devil Jin Laser Beams is satan incarnate 🤣
In T5 one taunt setup from Bryan would delete you life bar
In T6 characters like Lars and Bruce would do unbelievable comebacks quite easily due to how messed up the scaling was on Rage.
This discussion is basically what in happening in MK_REO's channel with all the old clips he's uploading. People are talking a lot of shit about MK11, and forgetting how bad MK9 and MKX were.
This mentality isn't even exclusive to fighting games. Franchises like Pokemon and Zelda have it happen all the time where a recent game is hated by the hardcore fanbase and then when the next game comes out it's loved. The first street fighter I played was 4 and I remember looking up stuff online and seeing people call it casualized crap. Now 5 is out it's praised as the greatest fighting game to ever grace the earth. And that's not going into how people didn't like 3S in general when it came out and it's held as the peak of the series nowadays.
I can't believe Sajam is calling all these classics BS. How dare he
i think this is partially a matter of acceptance. in an old game with no patches and an established meta, a lot of times they aren't really attached to a fantastical idea of how the game Should be played. Some people might say something like "3s is bad because its imba" but others will only see 4 characteres on the character select screen anyways. They're more likely to have internalized all the game's characteristics. They wont see these things as 'good' or 'bad', it's just the way the game works.
It can be much more frustrating to be ignorant or in denial of the way a game works than to play a game full of nonsense. I do think there's other reasons people might like old games more, besides just nostalgia, pastoral fantasy, or scenility, but that's a different topic.
i remember when sf4 came out and people called it super jab fighter 4.
on a side note the only game where the entire fanbase knows and likes the game for being a mixup mashing mess is Soulcalibur 2.
God I fucking love SC2, one stray GI could turn into a 15 second game of hot potato and I loved it
Coming from Xrd to playing Plus R, I can appreciate what aspects those games have and don't have as the game goes on. As a newer player I'm looking forward to newer games cause at the very least I have an idea of what makes a game appealing for one reason or another. Reason I don't like SF5 than SF4 as someone who doesn't play much SF is not because it's not like SF4, but just some of the fundamental aspects of SF (ex: invul wake up dp) that undermind their appeal to the people that love them. For GG I can appreciate both GGs as a fan by how the games still have good character metas and options you can do in the respective games. Only reason I don't like playing Xrd as much not because of bad netcode,I just hate danger time. Cause unlike other comeback mechanics (X-factor, BBTag resonance, etc) you at least know when, where, and why you use them. Danger time feels like Daisuke decided going on stage and banging a gong in front of the match yelling "get your damage for half price" because he can do it whenever he feels like it.
Great video!
I've been getting tired of hearing "the old games were better" arguments over and over again. I think it's not so damaging when it comes to big communities like Street Fighter or Tekken but this mentality can destroy a small community like King of Fighters, especially in Europe where I'm from. I've seen in first hand.
In the beginning people were actually quite excited for KOFXIV and we had some nice local tournaments in my area. However, as time went on, less people played the game and switched to other KOF titles like 11, 13 and 2002. I even had people wanting to play KOFXIV but they just couldn't because most of the OG players just told them to play the "better" games. I am aware that KOFXIV has its flaws (not only graphics wise) but it's still an enjoyable game and it broke my heart to see people dismissing it just cause the older players couldn't get out of their comfort zone and relearn a new game.
I just used KOFXIV as an example but I saw that also for SCVI and other lesser known games. I hope we'll see less of that mentality for the upcoming games.
Long time Kof fan I played Kof 13 since 2011 and when Kof 14 came out I refused to believe the hype that Kof 02 UM is better and people should play that game over Kof 14 it's just that 14 in terms of gameplay is more polished.
the fighting game equivalent of: "the youth is stupid, lazy and has no taste in music".
These new games take no skill.
The internet makes you gullible and misinforms you.
Newspapers make you antisocial and hurt your posture.
Writing things down? You'll dull if you don't have to memorize.
Grammar? Me throw shit if hate.
RRRUAAARGH!
Old lies, by old minds, for old minds. Degrading the new, excusing themselves from learning.
That part about an old game you havent played being your favorite game is real shit. Shout outs to the Last Blade 2.
This what i call "misremembering" about the past. Im the person who looks at games carefully before judging them
I agree that every fighting game has crazy strong options or "bullshit" in it, BUT I would not call them bad. I'm sure you don't really mean "yeah, they're poor quality games" or whatnot, but the language used does matter. Now I do tend to prefer older games, but I don't really pose it in a way of "oh, my game is way more honest" or whatnot. I love all the games I play because they have crazy strong stuff and are super fast. Some newer games for me personally just feel a bit boring by comparison.
I've heard people say that SFV is 'all about frame data' and that in ST 'you could steal turns' in a way you couldn't in SFV and man, man. Just because you didn't HAVE the frame data in front of you doesn't mean people didn't understand what being negative was and when things were real or not.
At best, these people are arguing that modern games are patched too often or are overdesigned in response to feedback (an interesting idea since we can't play old versions, but change is due just from adding characters)...
On frame data, Japanese communities sometimes had the frame data from guide books though I'm working on tracking down an example since the earlier books I've found with frame data are for Third Strike.
I've spotted these in Japanese and English and will be highly amused if I can prove Tekken was selling frame data in another sense earlier, it won't be a shock since guide books are an industry for a reason with codes included for games in Japan and that's when they are subtle.
@@thelastgogeta I definitely remember Gamest mooks that had data on individual moves, but I don't remember if they had frame data--it's been a long time since I had any of those.
@Bahn_Mi: SFV's Beta was a lot more "free" with cancelling frames, jugglable in their hit-states, and generally a lot more offense-friendly - almost like a light version of SFA3 than what it is now. But when the focus shifted to e-Sports and "Capcom Cup," the comboability and cancellability of many moves - especially medium neutrals - got really closed up and "standardized" into a narrow window, if it existed at all. Core cast members are brutally capped by this - for instance, Sakura no longer has cancellable mediums at all - where the newer cast is developed more with that freedom intact, which is why you see so much G and Menat in play. Those two are very much similar to how the beta played compared to much of the cast now.
Melee is a weird case, it definitely has some BS in it, enough to get me to not want to deal with it anymore, I really like Ultimate but I still think Melee is better than what came after it in almost every way. It's all about what sort of BS you're willing to put up with at the end of the day.
I live for the melee bullshit. Like sajam said, with these older games without balance patches you have no choice but to accept that that's the game, no choice but to learn and adapt or stop improving. There's truly an endless skill ceiling, you'll never run out of things to learn
God damn I love melee
Totally agree. And it applies to Tekken too. Every now and then you get these dinosaurs that say T3 or Tag 1 were the pinnacle of Tekken just because they grew up with them, but then you play these games and see the properties and the frames of the moves and they're so hilariously broken in so many ways and characters are comically unbalanced.
It's perfectly fine to like the old games, just don't try to say there wasn't BS in them.
t3 is actually the best tekken though
Mashing is worse in modern games. If you mashed out a dp in third strike for example, there is much more pushback in that game so it would be pretty inconsistent to punish and there is no buffer making it harder to get a combo, these two combined make it so you most often get a crouching forward, if that. Meanwhile in sf6, the pushback is much smaller, there is a buffer window, and you get punish countered too.
It's all about finding whatever makes you hype to watch and play... there isn't a wrong answer. I've tried old and new games, and for me my preference are things like ST and Vampire Savior. I'm always down to try something new though, and I've had fun with most things I've tried. I just like the music, art styles, and character design of the older games more than the newer ones, I love the difficult inputs (even something that looks simple is hype if it is hard to pull off), and I love how fast and brutal they are... you make the wrong move and you can lose the match.
"old game good, new game bad" Oh yeah the Halo and Pokemon community alright
ok but those ones are factually correct
@@animeprofilepicture8855 If people saying Gen 1 is more balanced/has better mon designs than Gen 4/5/6 etc. then you need your nostalgia glasses.
It's literally no different to these guys with fighting games.
@@BansheeHallow Eh, I don't think most of the "old game good" crowd are talking about gen 1 (which I genuinely love, but is definitely a broken mess). I mostly see gen 3 get heaped with the "old game good" praise (and tend to find it has shorter queues on showdown than gen 1), which is relatively diverse and low-damage by modern standards (but like, I'm not hating on modern gens, I just don't have time to learn them). It's weird to talk about any of these games as "balanced" or not, because literally none of them are, the balance is entirely the result of relatively heavy community rulings.
More of the pokemon community takes issue with post gen 5 games. The gen 1 crowd is not the same group and is pretty much getting L's from the rest, it's practically the one thing they can both agree on.
I'd rather deal with 3 elphelts tag team than Testament
be fucking careful what you wish for holy shit
I'm surprised you didn't dive deeper into HOW the BS is different. If you look at how many interactions it took with the ST Vega mixup to kill vs SFV VT comebacks, it's vastly different because of two things, the amount of interactions to kill/chances and how common said BS is in that game.
In ST only Vega and Honda really have that kind of mixup, in games like SFV it's incredibly common to have an explosive VT and with moves that are either not punishable or safe AND also have a high reward. If Damdai blocked a wall dive, he would have gotten out of the situation as well but he was stubborn in trying to reversal.
Saw a post where a smash player was dissing on other smash players with some meme like, “smasher: ya, i play other fighting games” then a bunch of pics of modern fighting games (mk11, dbfz, bbtag, etc.)and the dude was like 16. It just carried such “homeless man calling another man broke” energy that I just laughed to myself about it 😅
Lmao, I saw that, he says it like he probably doesn’t get washed in those games
Hey I just want a new darkstalkers
I love everything about Vampire Savior. I really do!
....but Vampire HUNTER is still my favorite!!! Is that wrong? 🤔
Same!
sajam transcending? fgc culture. ty for the good work and creating a fair discussion
Chun LI has a mashing kick special move
FGC Twitter and Reddit these past few days with Strive
there are some objective differences in design still though, like how many old games did not have input buffering in the way it exists now
Garou had buffering, i think SamSho V Special had buffering