Yep and before Street fighter 6 came out, a lot of people were like nah man this only happens with bad games... I was just like you just wait you just wait and see.
This video has so many fantastic lines “atleast you cant move faster while being green” “when project L comes out im going to have to make this video again and tell everyone that old games did infact have mixups”
@@littlemisseevee2309 No, it’s a real Demon at close to point blank and invul. It has shorter range than actual demon (as in he only travels like 2 feet) so can have startup if it’s slightly further.
In my day we had honorable footsie battles and all matches were Ryu mirror matches. There were two stages of the fight. First we threw fireballs at each other until one person slowly started winning the war and made the other person block one. We then engaged in honorable combat involving walking back and forth using c. mk and c. hk only. We then shook hands and enjoyed a fine snifter of brandy.
And in my day, whatever a game gives you, you use to win. So n actuallity you sucked at the game becausen all you knew was hadoken. You and your friends physically couldn't do jump ins, tatsus or shoryukens. How boring.
@e97erin Birdie's EX headbutt was unreactable in neuch, I don't remember if it was punishable but when you have VT ready, basically you just yolo it to close rounds. He was abusing that shit. I'm not saying Mena wasnt worth to win, he won cc twice, he is great, but dude talks nonsense whenever he loses.
"Imagine if DR cost 0 drive gauge you just hit forward forward with Makoto" lmao it's actually wild to go back and see how BALLISTIC her dash is. For reference the fastest forward dash in SF6 currently is 18 frames (Cammy). In Third Strike Makoto's forward dash is 11 frames
@@Shodan130 FGC the only community where you can give someone the most broken fucked up game ever and then they'll get mad at you for dialling it back because "the jank is part of the charm" and shit like that, I know I didn't grow up with them but fuck I don't think I could've handled shit like Old Sagat and Vega in ST, Yun and Chun in 3S, Vanilla Sagat, Seth, or Yun and Elena in 4. I'd be absolutely losing my mind as they unleash the most unhinged fucked up shit this side of X-Factor
Which crowd? Idk, for once I feel the crowd loves sf6 so much. Salty pros that make excuses and have actual scrub behaviour always make an excuse for why they lost and also add in there a little of "in previous so and so game I.....", which is not something anyone would even test them on cause "bruh, we now playin the new version bruh", and having won a championship is enough for them to say whatever bs they like For now the crowd loves sf6 is the takeaway. But I fear salt will rise with losses, and they will just parrot what they heard Menarded say...
@@pon3d120 Nobody is saying that, stop making shit up. lol SFV was trash and SF6 is trash too. Who the hell thinks SF6 is barebones, or did you f up your grammar? Because that just makes no sense whatsoever.
The funniest time that happened was when some big player ragequit Combobreaker because it was the “shittiest tournament” but when the TOs asked for feedback on how to improve he avoided responding lol.
And they'll kind of be right. Half of the scrubby shit in SF6 will have been tweaked to be less scrubby and people will have learned to deal with the rest.
@@brettdallman3885 Neither of those things are inherently scrubby. Generally, when someone says something is scrubby, they mean it's a lot easier to do than it is to counter. Stuff like that tends to be really obnoxious when a new game comes out, balance hasn't been adjusted and everyone is still learning.
This phenomenon is always so funny to me because it always happens and people act like Tokido wasn’t flying around the rafters with claw in sf2 and like Tominaga isn’t going full crackhead whiffing nine jump hps in a row before doing double dash kurakusa into ToD. Just missing those old street fightin’ footsies, hope they fix this in SF7.
Another thing is that the issues from those examples are present in the definitive versions of the respective games (ST, 3S, A3...), a product of successive refinements over 3-5 years (depending on the game). And the first versions of games are much worse, like SF2 WW, SFA1, SF3 NG, SF4 Vanilla... So besides the matter of the absurd og false statements, there's the matter that people bash a new game as if it needed to have the refinement level of that "definitive" version of the game he was playing earlier. They refuse to give the new game the "new game pass" and tolerate some issues that are natural for early versions will need time to be refined. (And in this case of "1 month old SF6", much less problematic issues than those of SF4 Vanilla, SF3 NG, etc)
People just have selective memory tbh. Tokido was notorious for picking cheap characters too, he’s just a scientist so he was a big part like vortex, other setups, etc... I still remember when people shat on xiao hai for picking top tiers. It’s almost like there’s money on the line or something. People still think daigo is a ryu player when he did the “evo moment 37” with Ken.
I think it’s a combination of bad memory but also the new kids ok the block who wasn’t around at that time. I mean, some of these kids wasn’t even born when 3 rd strike was out 🤣
Tokido is one of the funniest player for me, people consider him like pretty much a SF god, the game of honest footsies, and he plays the cheapest shit possible as much as he can.
To illustrate your point Sajam, after I finished this video, youtube recommended me a video of you, from 2 years ago " The Older games were BS too", which use the same Dandai clip. I seriously think we're in a timeloop sometimes in the FGC.
I'm glad that Mena made this tweet because I feel like this time the cycle can be undone,, cuz NO ONE is believing you when you say SFV is better than 6
Well, he did make a million $ playing SFV so he may be the only one who actually feels that way. Seeing through Rose-tinted glasses and all that, but I definitely get and agree with your point.
The FGC discourse talk has been stuck in a loop for years, huh. I thought we would move away from the "propping X game to make Y game look better" mentality at some point. You know you can judge a game or express your love for it on its own merits, right?
God I love that Damdai clip. It's such a perfect example of gaslighting yourself into a cognative disonance that lots of legacy Street Fighter players do.
It's just when a big fish in a small pond finds its way into the ocean. They might have been good when 300 people where showing up for tournaments but when it's popular and you get millions of people playing and they all start and ground zero, they can't compete at the highest level, so they make up some excuse
I see what you mean but consider this: He has a definitive answer to the problem - reversal DP - but he is unable to do. With unblockable OS in 4 you're basically at your opponent's mercy AFAIK.
@@kurtblacklake Your working yourself into the same delusion if you believe that Damdai was in any more control against Vega's Wall Dive Oki in ST when compared to some of the worst techniques in SF4. It's basically the same thing, degenerative setplay that circumvents neutral and removes large amounts of gameplay to a shallow execution test.
As someone who's been around for well over 20 years, i've been saying for a long time that Honest Footsies Games are largely a myth and most people don't even really want that. How do I know? In my early days we did have the closest thing to an Honest Footsies Game i've seen: Soul Calibur II. A game that gets praised to high heaven these days as the best in that series, and a game whose most broken exploit (being able to block while sidestepping) actually strengthened that kind of "fundamental" play. And you know how competitive players felt about it at the time? They *constantly* bitched about how defensive it was and how boring top-level play was! And as someone who was in the crowd for finals at both Evo 2003 & 04, i can tell you the crowd did not give a fuck about that game unless something wacky happened (e.g. Aris going wild with Voldo stances or Yoshimitsu winning a match with the suicide). Another example of this from the Capcom side of things was CvS2, specifically in the period before Roll Cancel was discovered. At that point the game was heavily centered around strong buttons, and a lot of the same discourse re: turtling happened there. Hell, Roll Cancel is usually crediting with *saving* that game in the US!
The disconnect that players have with this shit always blows me away like... we all played SF2, we all fought Claw and Boxer in that game. The footsies NEVER existed lmao
Sajam said it on the last one of these he did, but people feel "in control" in the older games because they're more familiar with all the options. They know all the lab tech and counters inside and out. Everybody feels just as lost jumping into their game as they do jumping into the newer games.
yeah, I think that deep down a lot of people just don't want to get out of their comfort zone and learn a bunch of new tech from scratch, which honestly is a fair reason to stick to their favorite game and just chill.
FGC specifics aside, it's crazy how many complaints about seemingly unrelated things boil down to "I worked hard to develop a skill that was valued by society and now because of arbitrary changes outside my control, it is no longer as valued."
@@ExeErdna SFV still has a bit of a playerbase on Steam which is quite funny, altho I think it's a shame SFIV never got re-released with rollback netcode, I'm not even a huge fan of SFIV, but I really think every SF game should get the rollback treatment to preserve the community around the older titles, atleast ST, Alpha and 3rd Strike are still easy to play online
@@boostedjizo4380 plus Makoto took actual skill, alot of it to do those things in the video, she definitely isn't a character you can pick up and play like that.
@@yoshitsune5691 lol why would she need it her vortex normals already skip nuetral as it is, she has one of the longest sweep ranges in the game an a screen long double kick.
Man, I'm fairly new to the FGC (been playing for the last year), but it's comforting to see that the FGC is just like EVERY other competitive gaming community out there. Complaining about a new patch/game (while praising the last patch/game!), whiplash-inducing levels of knee-jerk reactions, garbage hot-takes, and more! I love it that this happens at the highest levels of play too. It's just a salt-induced Option Select that I'm guilty of doing too whenever I take a bad L.
What we need is a Sajam "How to beat the Twitter random MU" and it's just stuff like that quote about just disengaging when you realize they aren't responding in good faith.
And never forget that according to the old tales, in the time of SSF2T, new game changing mechanics like Supers (the debut of Supers in SF) were badly seen by some high level players of the time like Tomo Ohira. That shows this kind of reaction to a new game from part of the community is truly natural and constant from the very beginning.
David Sirlin making the balanced beginner friendly fighting game that will be sure to get all the newcomers invested then adds the character designed to counterhit you for maximum damage by pressing a single button
I knew the vitriol about the new game and nostalgia about the old game was inevitable, but it's still wild to see people acting like they miss the Street Fighter with the "oops, we accidentally installed a rootkit on your PC" update and the "someone else fixed our netcode, so we had to break it again" update. SF6 has some weird glitches and some room for improvement, sure, but a least it manages to not be a dumpster fire before any match even starts.
@@gregrogowski4017 Stupid is a genereous way to put it, malicious is more accurate Management couldn't take the hit to their ego it seems, so they did the most Japanese thing. Petty sabotage after having your honor tranished
They are. If you see ppl use that term, they don’t know much fr. Ppl that do know their sh*t use the term “neutral.” And what you do in neutral changes from game to game. That’s like asking if a fighting game is “balanced.” There is no such thing as a “balanced” fighting game.
cant wait for the tekken 8 version of this video where people magically forget about leroy, fahk, geese, akuma, steve, dvj, julia, jin, lidia, and every other BS character at their strongest
except then it's justified. if i prefer ST or alpha 3. i can just go back and play it with rollback. if you want to play tag 1 or T3 online... good luck lmaoo
I've said this before, I like Mena, but he's a reactionary/reads player, and SF6 has raw DR which can be hard to react to when done randomly. Every new game is called scrubby by the pros who have their playstyle "nerfed" by a new game's mechanics. I'll just keep playing Blanka and throw out light ball to any green I see, lol.
the part at 9:05 reminds me during one interview in season 2 of SFV, Infiltration was criticising SFV and mentioned that he was planning to win the first Capcom Cup of SFV (which was few months ago iirc) then make those statements but got eliminated quite early so couldn't do that because it would be like crying after a lose
Every time I watch one of Sajam’s video’s, it’s like looking at the meme of the astronauts saying it’s always been this way. I just really enjoy these videos.
Calling sf6 scrubbier than sf5 is wild to me. Sf5 had like just 3 mechanics for the longest time. It was way easier to get the fundamentals. Sf6 literally has more things to think about. The stack is literally higher so I don't see how it is actually possible for it to be 'more scrubby than 5'. That isn't me saying sf5 is bad by the way. I actually like 5 but not more than 6 lol
@tonykirk8295 especially since you can go from Thanksgiving dinner to starving on the street in regards to Raw Drive Rush, depending on the character you select
I don't see how Drive Rush is scrubbier when SF5 has EX Zonk, SF4 has Green Hand and both have a bajillion other safe on block (or even plus lol) neutral skipping tools.
@@YourMasta It's not my conclusion/opinion. I was just saying what people who think SF6 is scrubby think. I was just properly representing the criticism, not agreeing with it.
I honestly think this might be a good process for the community to go through. there's a shitload of a new players who are going to see 'sf6 is scrubby' in twitch chat, youtube comments, and twitter tthreads, and it's good that they understand where it's coming from and that it's not accurate.
IDK about "good", but it is inevitable, as Sajam demonstrated with that Damdai clip with SFIV. I still remember that if you were an 09'er you were basically treated like a leper by the FGC boomers.
@@matrix3509 in sf4 I got shit on for playing with a xbox 360 controller and a keyboard. Now I'm just a strong cheater who needs to be nerfed for using the same exact tools.
@@aki42maybe you should drop that info again lol *XBOX 360* like that’s another way to spot the new ppl in FGC. They have no idea Xbox were *the* best experience for fighting games. It wasn’t until recently tournaments swapped to PlayStation. Cheers dude 👍🏻 real OG status. Did you get sh*t on by stick players?
@@OhNoJoshEdits Yeah it was "real og stick players". I actually had an xbox 360 but I only played fighting games on my pc so I wouldn't have to pay for online lol. Initially got inspired to play keyboard after playing vs a really strong chun player. Thought it was quite interesting that controllers were seen as objectively worse before but later became "strong". It seems the community doesn't care what you do as long as you don't win evo/cap cup with it.
I think an important skill to learn is how to translate the scrubquotes, both the ones you make and the ones others make. And also it's fine to clown and be the clown like it takes literal seconds to fart out the worst of yourself onto twitter.
10:30 Sajam should be charging a fee to people trying to work on their option selects. "I'm right but you're not listening, but in five years, you'll change your mind and I'll also be right."
I love how ive been following fighting games long enough that even seeing Sajam's talking points are starting to repeat cause yall never stop complaining about the same stupid stuff lmao
they could make a game that spent infinite money on a team of experts and wizards to somehow create the perfect ground based, fair, neutral centric experience of all time, and people would still complain its scrubby compared to the previous game they did well at
Or they'd complain it was dead and you could never get any matches. A similar thing happened from time to time with ccgs where people would complain the dominant games were too random and unbalanced and sometimes you didn't even get to play. Then someone would design something that lessened those issues (which were real if overstated), and then it turned out no one wanted to play it, because you never stole any wins from better players, and this meant you needed to be really motivated and stoic to push through the learning curve. And most people didn't actually want that, and the ones who did were still screwed because they wanted more people around to play against (and mostly beat).
Sajam’s insight and level-headedness has him like the dad-figure of the FGC, where salty players be throwing their tantrums while he waits patiently, and when they’re done he just says “You get it all out, son?” Of course, the world needs its Leffens and salty Menards, or else we’d have nothing to laugh at. But please, FGC, elevate this man’s presence with more commentary offers. He is actively curing the world of some of its internet-induced brain rot
Man I love you so much... when I saw this exploding and obviously THE SF6 PRO said it... everyone was jumping on the badnwagon and I was like "Oh hell no, here we go again..." but you not only teach us about Fighting Games, you teach us to not be jerks and scrubs while simply enjoying the games, thanks. Also I completely died and exploded laughing at 7:34 as a Guilty Gear Player enjoyer of XX, Xrd and Strive
What gets me about stuff like this is that people always make these vague allusions to some sort of idealised vision of what the old/previous games were like. Like, they might as well literally be saying what Sajam said at the beginning with the whole "every time we meet in neutral we take ten steps back" thing; it's equally accurate. It's fine if you like the previous games better. Everyone has their favourite version or iteration of a thing. But let's not pretend the stuff is/was something it really is not.
What bothers me is : Mena is a PHENOMENAL player, but given the chance, he'll play in the most "scrubby" way possible. He won Evo with Birdie by never blocking, kept bull horning in every situation when the move used the beat strikes and avoid throws. Kept throwing that unpunishable sweep twice, kept throwing random ex bullheads etc etc. He also won CEO with Blanca by never blocking. He's an amazing player, but always tend to abuse the cheap stuff (which is ok, it's part of the game, and it's a talent). But I don't understand, how out one anyone, he's the one saying this.
For more fun with busted old games: Alpha 2 - Rolento can do his back roll special to go run away and build meter. Once he has level one, if you stand up within sweep range you basically just die. Slap a trio of buttons to activate CC, Sweep, Super Jump Short Kick x Whatever. For reasons only Capcom can explain this does eleventy billion damage. Opponent can't block after the activation. Good times.
In my day we fetishized being kicked by traditional, respectable Chinese feet. There were none of these Korean e-girl biker feet like the ones corrupting today's youth!
1:33 didn’t know about this tournament and him getting 2nd place, had a gut feeling that he lost a match or something when he tweeted this out, what a fool
Sajam you should should just go ahead and put out your "Are one button inputs for scrubs?" video now so you have it ready for when Project-L is released.
It's crazy funny listening to people defend SFV now especially now when that game had like 0 options when it released. Imagine going back 6 some years back and looking at r mika vs Laura and going "yep, that's real footsies right there" when vshift never existed to save you from VTrigger robbery :)
I noticed that scrubby usually means something hits me and i cant anticipate or react whats going on but thats how any type of competition is especially combat sports
Gotta love how they try to change history by claiming the older game was better because they played the final version for years when everything was data mined and solved. People keep acting like SF4 was some perfect gem of a game when Vanilla Sagat was murdering everyone and everyone was crying about how much they hated fighting Rufus. This happens every time. The game isn’t even two months old, there’s still lots to figure out.
The clips are funny, however, if you do look back at EVO 2015 Grand Finals for USFIV, you'll see that the majority of the set is played at mid to long range with some close-range play / mixups. This is a contrast to 2022 SFV EVO Grand Finals, which was majority close-range with occasional mid to long range play. I think it's the former types of sets that people are longing for when they say these things, even if they know old SF games still had their fair share of BS.
The day the arcade version of street fighter the movie the game was released was the most important day of your gaming life, but for the arcade version of street fighter the movie the game, it was Tuesday
Ground based neutral and footsies is considered honest and good rather than just a game state... like... why THIS aspect the "holy grail"? If we play a grounded game and my character has a longer poke is it a "scrubby" character?
This is one example where scrubs who play a large variety of games across genres have a slight advantage. We have seen this same exact discourse in FPS games, MMOs, RPGs, puzzle games, rock throwing and hopscotch. It’s fine to like older games but there is always a certain familiar bias that bends discussions in ways that aren’t fair to any of the games or players involved.
Reminds me of something someone once said that stuck with me: "people don't want to go back to playing Goldeneye, they want to go back to the time in their life when they played Goldeneye" I, too, thought the word was so much better back before people started calling me out on having rose-colored glasses ;)
Honest to god SFV is the only SF game that I've played that I genuinely hate, I bitch about SF6's issues a lot but man it's the most invested I've felt in a fighting game in a LONG time
every 2 years sajam remakes the same video and its always a banger
Sajam has the perfect free content loop.
Sajam beating Hollywood at their own game.
Looking forward to the HD remaster next year too
Yep and before Street fighter 6 came out, a lot of people were like nah man this only happens with bad games... I was just like you just wait you just wait and see.
With how fighting games have been, Sajam will be getting big views every 6 months.
Alright fair enough, but the NEXT SF game will see a return to honest footsies and neutral, mark my words
Look, next SF won't have ANY Slurms Mackenzie, he WILL NOT be invited again, no green gusher juice allowed in the future, only honest footsies.
cope
nah bro, SF is dead, capcom killed it
@@Gabrolyes, one of the fast selling SF games released is dead.
@@AnhDonoi /s
*proceeds to plays the world's dirtyness Blanka*
dirtyness
@@shatteredteethofgod Yeah that Dirty
The dirt!😂
Nah that would be me
I thought, and said the exact same thing in my comments elsewhere. Bro one CEO off cheap Blanka tactics, gtfoh with that neutral/footsies excuse
3:45 footsies is when chun li hits you with her foot a lot
Now I know why people want to play footsies so bad 😳
If you enjoy playing against chun li in general you're 100% a masochist
So true bestie
What's it called when Juri does it, then?
@@malcovich_games Femdom.
This video has so many fantastic lines “atleast you cant move faster while being green” “when project L comes out im going to have to make this video again and tell everyone that old games did infact have mixups”
Dude you're playing Edmund Honda and doing fullscreen headbutt over and over. And they're like "Yeah. This is footsies mothefucker."
I am SO hype for all of the toxic bullshit that's going to spew out of League players mouth when they get double perfected by nothing but jab checks.
@@SaiKisaragiLTG in his element
@@cycy8699 There's gonna be so many new LTGs when Project L releases.
@@cycy8699 I hope we get a LTG and Tyler1 scrub showdown
Honest neutral is a myth. Even the game called “Footsies” has a damn raging demon.
wait it has rd?
@@littlemisseevee2309yeah once per match a player can do classical raging demon input
@@meathir4921 damn, never knew, is it interruptible?
@@littlemisseevee2309 no, its a raging demon
@@littlemisseevee2309 No, it’s a real Demon at close to point blank and invul. It has shorter range than actual demon (as in he only travels like 2 feet) so can have startup if it’s slightly further.
In my day we had honorable footsie battles and all matches were Ryu mirror matches. There were two stages of the fight. First we threw fireballs at each other until one person slowly started winning the war and made the other person block one.
We then engaged in honorable combat involving walking back and forth using c. mk and c. hk only. We then shook hands and enjoyed a fine snifter of brandy.
"fine fireball trap sir may I have another?"
But enough about Street Fighter 1…
lol
Godlike comment
And in my day, whatever a game gives you, you use to win. So n actuallity you sucked at the game becausen all you knew was hadoken. You and your friends physically couldn't do jump ins, tatsus or shoryukens. How boring.
"At least you can't move slightly faster while being green" 😂
My man Mena is playing Blanka too, the balls on this man
I see what you did there haha
💀💀💀💀 and dude talking about footsies
Bro 💀💀💀 someone gift that man some self awareness
Dude also won his first CC with Birdie, who had safe unreactable EX move into VT and unpunishable sweep if spaced correctly. Dude should just shut up.
@e97erin Birdie's EX headbutt was unreactable in neuch, I don't remember if it was punishable but when you have VT ready, basically you just yolo it to close rounds. He was abusing that shit. I'm not saying Mena wasnt worth to win, he won cc twice, he is great, but dude talks nonsense whenever he loses.
"Imagine if DR cost 0 drive gauge you just hit forward forward with Makoto" lmao it's actually wild to go back and see how BALLISTIC her dash is. For reference the fastest forward dash in SF6 currently is 18 frames (Cammy). In Third Strike Makoto's forward dash is 11 frames
people realising that 3s is trash. nature is healing
@@Shodan130 FGC the only community where you can give someone the most broken fucked up game ever and then they'll get mad at you for dialling it back because "the jank is part of the charm" and shit like that, I know I didn't grow up with them but fuck I don't think I could've handled shit like Old Sagat and Vega in ST, Yun and Chun in 3S, Vanilla Sagat, Seth, or Yun and Elena in 4. I'd be absolutely losing my mind as they unleash the most unhinged fucked up shit this side of X-Factor
Once again, the "new thing bad, old thing good" crowd shows their hypocrisy
Those people are the fucking worst and they exist in every gaming community.
But I dont think anyone is singing the old thing's praises this time around. More like not satisfied with new thing, old thing still bad.
Which crowd? Idk, for once I feel the crowd loves sf6 so much. Salty pros that make excuses and have actual scrub behaviour always make an excuse for why they lost and also add in there a little of "in previous so and so game I.....", which is not something anyone would even test them on cause "bruh, we now playin the new version bruh", and having won a championship is enough for them to say whatever bs they like
For now the crowd loves sf6 is the takeaway. But I fear salt will rise with losses, and they will just parrot what they heard Menarded say...
@@Hillthugsta You kidding? Tons of people are saying SFV was good in the final season and we shouldn't have moved on to a barebones new game.
@@pon3d120 Nobody is saying that, stop making shit up. lol SFV was trash and SF6 is trash too. Who the hell thinks SF6 is barebones, or did you f up your grammar? Because that just makes no sense whatsoever.
Going to social media while upset and under stress is always a true combo for making yourself look stupid.
The funniest time that happened was when some big player ragequit Combobreaker because it was the “shittiest tournament” but when the TOs asked for feedback on how to improve he avoided responding lol.
You are right, telling the truth on socials is never a good idea because scrubbies can feel offended.
It's a straight up FADC into a ridiculous statement 😂
This. I swear pros like Mena and Punk needs to fvck off from social media after they lost.
Or going to the commentator booth!
Time is a flat circle in the FGC. See you all in 8 years for SF7 when I see people say that 6 was a real fighting game
And they'll kind of be right. Half of the scrubby shit in SF6 will have been tweaked to be less scrubby and people will have learned to deal with the rest.
@@mosley3485 yeah that’s the thing. It’s scrubby because 1. It’s a new game with new mechanics, and 2. There’s a lot more new players.
@@brettdallman3885 Neither of those things are inherently scrubby.
Generally, when someone says something is scrubby, they mean it's a lot easier to do than it is to counter. Stuff like that tends to be really obnoxious when a new game comes out, balance hasn't been adjusted and everyone is still learning.
@mosley3485 So inherently new games are less scrubby than old games? Nice!
@@Talking_Ed You might want to try reading what I wrote again, chief.
No matter how many years pass, Tominaga's Makoto getting the Win Condition™ never gets old
Lucky boi~ lucky boi~
Chun-Li playing honest hackeysack while Rose is trying to play street fighter.
🤣🤣🤣
This phenomenon is always so funny to me because it always happens and people act like Tokido wasn’t flying around the rafters with claw in sf2 and like Tominaga isn’t going full crackhead whiffing nine jump hps in a row before doing double dash kurakusa into ToD. Just missing those old street fightin’ footsies, hope they fix this in SF7.
Another thing is that the issues from those examples are present in the definitive versions of the respective games (ST, 3S, A3...), a product of successive refinements over 3-5 years (depending on the game). And the first versions of games are much worse, like SF2 WW, SFA1, SF3 NG, SF4 Vanilla...
So besides the matter of the absurd og false statements, there's the matter that people bash a new game as if it needed to have the refinement level of that "definitive" version of the game he was playing earlier. They refuse to give the new game the "new game pass" and tolerate some issues that are natural for early versions will need time to be refined. (And in this case of "1 month old SF6", much less problematic issues than those of SF4 Vanilla, SF3 NG, etc)
People just have selective memory tbh.
Tokido was notorious for picking cheap characters too, he’s just a scientist so he was a big part like vortex, other setups, etc...
I still remember when people shat on xiao hai for picking top tiers. It’s almost like there’s money on the line or something.
People still think daigo is a ryu player when he did the “evo moment 37” with Ken.
I think it’s a combination of bad memory but also the new kids ok the block who wasn’t around at that time. I mean, some of these kids wasn’t even born when 3 rd strike was out 🤣
Tokido is one of the funniest player for me, people consider him like pretty much a SF god, the game of honest footsies, and he plays the cheapest shit possible as much as he can.
@@carlosaugusto9821 People forget how wild vanilla SF4 was
To illustrate your point Sajam, after I finished this video, youtube recommended me a video of you, from 2 years ago " The Older games were BS too", which use the same Dandai clip.
I seriously think we're in a timeloop sometimes in the FGC.
In 2017 people were saying GG Xrd Rev 2 and SFV would "save the FGC"
@@TheNobleFive People talked about Guilty Gear in 2017? I don't believe you.
@@leithaziz2716it's true the 3 loyal gg players were really hyped
@@TheNobleFiveI thought it's the reverse.
It's GG Xrd who save the FGC, and FighterZ not SFV. And also Granblue VS saves the FGC at that time?
Can't help but notice that Yun fella moving fast while being green, smh doesn't he know he's in an honest fighting game with footsies and parries?
parries and footsies don't co-exist dawg
@@Shodan130hm?
When my friends pass me the AUX cord
I put on this video... What a banger
I'm glad that Mena made this tweet because I feel like this time the cycle can be undone,, cuz NO ONE is believing you when you say SFV is better than 6
Well, he did make a million $ playing SFV so he may be the only one who actually feels that way. Seeing through Rose-tinted glasses and all that, but I definitely get and agree with your point.
@@JoeRahlmena didn't make anywhere near a million from winning his 2 capcups
@@millerwrightt when you exchange it for cost and what it's worth in the DR he was a multimillionaire.
@@JoeRahlHe didn't even play Rose smh
@@Talking_Ed Never said he did. Rose-tinted glasses is a saying. Reading comprehension? SMH
Man, I love the "new game bad, old game good" part of a new game release. This shit is always so funny to me.
It's as inevitable as death or taxes lol
The FGC discourse talk has been stuck in a loop for years, huh.
I thought we would move away from the "propping X game to make Y game look better" mentality at some point. You know you can judge a game or express your love for it on its own merits, right?
@leithaziz2716 human nature doesn't change
@@leithaziz2716As long as new people join the fgc, people will say this shit, until they too become wise.
idk sf5 is still shit
I'm from the future and Mena really hates Street Fighter 7. Said Alex makes him want to break his PS7.
As if Alex will ever be that good
First gotta remember to put any 3 characters in the game
Damn the PS6 had no SF? Tekken wins again.
@@Merlin_vf PS6 had MVC4.
@@steviewyldedoes it have injustice 3?
God I love that Damdai clip. It's such a perfect example of gaslighting yourself into a cognative disonance that lots of legacy Street Fighter players do.
he played like that sometimes too lol. old ryu's air tatsu is unblockable half the time if you hit it on wakeup and i watched him do that plenty.
It's just when a big fish in a small pond finds its way into the ocean. They might have been good when 300 people where showing up for tournaments but when it's popular and you get millions of people playing and they all start and ground zero, they can't compete at the highest level, so they make up some excuse
I see what you mean but consider this: He has a definitive answer to the problem - reversal DP - but he is unable to do. With unblockable OS in 4 you're basically at your opponent's mercy AFAIK.
Ok I get it but I believe none of the people in comment section can pull off that makoto combo
@@kurtblacklake Your working yourself into the same delusion if you believe that Damdai was in any more control against Vega's Wall Dive Oki in ST when compared to some of the worst techniques in SF4. It's basically the same thing, degenerative setplay that circumvents neutral and removes large amounts of gameplay to a shallow execution test.
As someone who's been around for well over 20 years, i've been saying for a long time that Honest Footsies Games are largely a myth and most people don't even really want that. How do I know?
In my early days we did have the closest thing to an Honest Footsies Game i've seen: Soul Calibur II. A game that gets praised to high heaven these days as the best in that series, and a game whose most broken exploit (being able to block while sidestepping) actually strengthened that kind of "fundamental" play. And you know how competitive players felt about it at the time? They *constantly* bitched about how defensive it was and how boring top-level play was! And as someone who was in the crowd for finals at both Evo 2003 & 04, i can tell you the crowd did not give a fuck about that game unless something wacky happened (e.g. Aris going wild with Voldo stances or Yoshimitsu winning a match with the suicide).
Another example of this from the Capcom side of things was CvS2, specifically in the period before Roll Cancel was discovered. At that point the game was heavily centered around strong buttons, and a lot of the same discourse re: turtling happened there. Hell, Roll Cancel is usually crediting with *saving* that game in the US!
Just a reminder to everyone that being a scrub is independent of skill level.
The disconnect that players have with this shit always blows me away like... we all played SF2, we all fought Claw and Boxer in that game. The footsies NEVER existed lmao
Lying to yourself is a hell of a drug. Denialism is a dangerous opioid
now imagine that super turbo with DI, matches would be like 5 seconds long,
@@EdgeO419they're already 5 seconds long
Lmao "ppl can move horizontally across the screen quickly, and I don't like that, they're green and shit."
Sajam said it on the last one of these he did, but people feel "in control" in the older games because they're more familiar with all the options. They know all the lab tech and counters inside and out. Everybody feels just as lost jumping into their game as they do jumping into the newer games.
yeah, I think that deep down a lot of people just don't want to get out of their comfort zone and learn a bunch of new tech from scratch, which honestly is a fair reason to stick to their favorite game and just chill.
FGC specifics aside, it's crazy how many complaints about seemingly unrelated things boil down to "I worked hard to develop a skill that was valued by society and now because of arbitrary changes outside my control, it is no longer as valued."
@@nickkiller-0710 Yet they can't do such when often times when a new game comes out they drop the old one like it never existed.
@@ExeErdna SFV still has a bit of a playerbase on Steam which is quite funny, altho I think it's a shame SFIV never got re-released with rollback netcode, I'm not even a huge fan of SFIV, but I really think every SF game should get the rollback treatment to preserve the community around the older titles, atleast ST, Alpha and 3rd Strike are still easy to play online
The FGC as a person would have the memory of a goldfish.
That's because the FGC see like every other videogame fan base is stupid
That's all competitive communities
Look, I get the point. But don't slander poor goldfishes like that. Their memory is pretty good actually
“Drive rush is ruining the game its too fast and skips neutral.”
Nobody tell them about Makoto players skipping neutral since 99’
Yeah neutral skips in other games are usually character specific. Everyone can skip neutral thanks to drive rush and drive impact.
@@boostedjizo4380imma be that guy, but actually some characters have shit a drive rush, like Manon has a short drive rush, compared to Dj or Juri.
@@boostedjizo4380 plus Makoto took actual skill, alot of it to do those things in the video, she definitely isn't a character you can pick up and play like that.
@@yoshitsune5691 lol why would she need it her vortex normals already skip nuetral as it is, she has one of the longest sweep ranges in the game an a screen long double kick.
@@EdgeO419 iunno bruh Makoto is the most unga character in 3S lol. She does her own thing and you just gotta fight for your life
Man, I'm fairly new to the FGC (been playing for the last year), but it's comforting to see that the FGC is just like EVERY other competitive gaming community out there.
Complaining about a new patch/game (while praising the last patch/game!), whiplash-inducing levels of knee-jerk reactions, garbage hot-takes, and more!
I love it that this happens at the highest levels of play too. It's just a salt-induced Option Select that I'm guilty of doing too whenever I take a bad L.
Its human nature
What we need is a Sajam "How to beat the Twitter random MU" and it's just stuff like that quote about just disengaging when you realize they aren't responding in good faith.
Mena just being salty because Du whooped him. Hold the L.
NucleDu is unstoppable! Wonder if he'll talk crap when he eventually loses
And never forget that according to the old tales, in the time of SSF2T, new game changing mechanics like Supers (the debut of Supers in SF) were badly seen by some high level players of the time like Tomo Ohira. That shows this kind of reaction to a new game from part of the community is truly natural and constant from the very beginning.
Gamers in nutshell for the last part
@@lucaswibisono1316 Gamers? This is just human nature.
As an Abigail main in V, I can confirm my new main Edmond Honda only has honest footsies.
"Don't worry about being cheap or honorable, just do what's necessary to win and you'll keep improving."
--David Sirlin
Thanks, David Sirlin! Now do game dev
Thank you for the advice, Chess 2 developer David Sirlin!
David Sirlin making the balanced beginner friendly fighting game that will be sure to get all the newcomers invested then adds the character designed to counterhit you for maximum damage by pressing a single button
@@invinciblelooniethank you! Someone who actually gets it
Saying he's having the same experience 4 players had with 5 was clever, it feels like a much more relatable and understandable take
Does it? It still looks like retardation to me.
When Alpha players played Third Strike.
“Tf is this parry sh*t! This ain’t Street Fighter!”
I knew the vitriol about the new game and nostalgia about the old game was inevitable, but it's still wild to see people acting like they miss the Street Fighter with the "oops, we accidentally installed a rootkit on your PC" update and the "someone else fixed our netcode, so we had to break it again" update. SF6 has some weird glitches and some room for improvement, sure, but a least it manages to not be a dumpster fire before any match even starts.
I forgot about the netcode fix. That was capcoms stupidest move ever
@@gregrogowski4017 Stupid is a genereous way to put it, malicious is more accurate
Management couldn't take the hit to their ego it seems, so they did the most Japanese thing.
Petty sabotage after having your honor tranished
Sajam......as a older person who been around fighting game all my life, thank you
When SF6 came out I thought, surely we won't have an "old game better new game for babies" for this one since it follows SF5. How wrong I was
I'm starting to think that footsies were nothing but a conspiracy
The only footsies are the kicks you don't block
They are. If you see ppl use that term, they don’t know much fr. Ppl that do know their sh*t use the term “neutral.” And what you do in neutral changes from game to game. That’s like asking if a fighting game is “balanced.” There is no such thing as a “balanced” fighting game.
This video is gold......pure fucking gold. The high levels of contradiction created and exposed.
the fighting game player arithmetic goes crazy
Pray for Sajam. My man gotta do this shit again 😂
He don’t want to. He _has_ to. Cuz it *never* fails. Every release. It’s the same “new game’s for scrubs“ banter.
I just want to strap Crossover down to a chair, Clockwork Orange style, and force him to watch 24 hours of Decapre footage.
cant wait for the tekken 8 version of this video where people magically forget about leroy, fahk, geese, akuma, steve, dvj, julia, jin, lidia, and every other BS character at their strongest
except then it's justified. if i prefer ST or alpha 3. i can just go back and play it with rollback. if you want to play tag 1 or T3 online... good luck lmaoo
This might be my favorite video on TH-cam. It's definitely top of the month.
If you can't blame your team, feeders, afkers, or dcs, the only option left is to blame the game itself.
I've said this before, I like Mena, but he's a reactionary/reads player, and SF6 has raw DR which can be hard to react to when done randomly. Every new game is called scrubby by the pros who have their playstyle "nerfed" by a new game's mechanics. I'll just keep playing Blanka and throw out light ball to any green I see, lol.
the part at 9:05 reminds me
during one interview in season 2 of SFV, Infiltration was criticising SFV and mentioned that he was planning to win the first Capcom Cup of SFV (which was few months ago iirc) then make those statements but got eliminated quite early so couldn't do that because it would be like crying after a lose
We add a “for real” to how honest a game is per each installment that comes after lol
Next thing you know, it becomes fr fr spam, just like how weebs doing it when Chainsaw Man was a thing
Every time I watch one of Sajam’s video’s, it’s like looking at the meme of the astronauts saying it’s always been this way. I just really enjoy these videos.
Calling sf6 scrubbier than sf5 is wild to me. Sf5 had like just 3 mechanics for the longest time. It was way easier to get the fundamentals. Sf6 literally has more things to think about. The stack is literally higher so I don't see how it is actually possible for it to be 'more scrubby than 5'. That isn't me saying sf5 is bad by the way. I actually like 5 but not more than 6 lol
I think the idea is that due to the new mechanics players can get far by abusing drive rush/DI instead of having good fundamentals
@tonykirk8295 especially since you can go from Thanksgiving dinner to starving on the street in regards to Raw Drive Rush, depending on the character you select
I don't see how Drive Rush is scrubbier when SF5 has EX Zonk, SF4 has Green Hand and both have a bajillion other safe on block (or even plus lol) neutral skipping tools.
@@tonykirk8295It blows my mind that you watched this video and came to that conclusion.
@@YourMasta It's not my conclusion/opinion. I was just saying what people who think SF6 is scrubby think. I was just properly representing the criticism, not agreeing with it.
God Lord, Sajam, you have me dying over here my man. Comedy fucking gold.
There is no honest Fighting game
Footsie is the only honest fighting game.
@@jmarx3943fam they've got raging demon 😂
@@captainharpoon I forgot all about that lol. You're right.
I honestly think this might be a good process for the community to go through. there's a shitload of a new players who are going to see 'sf6 is scrubby' in twitch chat, youtube comments, and twitter tthreads, and it's good that they understand where it's coming from and that it's not accurate.
IDK about "good", but it is inevitable, as Sajam demonstrated with that Damdai clip with SFIV. I still remember that if you were an 09'er you were basically treated like a leper by the FGC boomers.
@@matrix3509 in sf4 I got shit on for playing with a xbox 360 controller and a keyboard. Now I'm just a strong cheater who needs to be nerfed for using the same exact tools.
@@aki42maybe you should drop that info again lol *XBOX 360* like that’s another way to spot the new ppl in FGC. They have no idea Xbox were *the* best experience for fighting games. It wasn’t until recently tournaments swapped to PlayStation. Cheers dude 👍🏻 real OG status. Did you get sh*t on by stick players?
@@OhNoJoshEdits Yeah it was "real og stick players". I actually had an xbox 360 but I only played fighting games on my pc so I wouldn't have to pay for online lol. Initially got inspired to play keyboard after playing vs a really strong chun player. Thought it was quite interesting that controllers were seen as objectively worse before but later became "strong". It seems the community doesn't care what you do as long as you don't win evo/cap cup with it.
I think an important skill to learn is how to translate the scrubquotes, both the ones you make and the ones others make. And also it's fine to clown and be the clown like it takes literal seconds to fart out the worst of yourself onto twitter.
10:30 Sajam should be charging a fee to people trying to work on their option selects. "I'm right but you're not listening, but in five years, you'll change your mind and I'll also be right."
Actually every other SF was scrubby and SF6 is the only honest skillful one because I play it
Bro I just really enjoyed this video. Thank you Sajam :)
I love how ive been following fighting games long enough that even seeing Sajam's talking points are starting to repeat cause yall never stop complaining about the same stupid stuff lmao
they could make a game that spent infinite money on a team of experts and wizards to somehow create the perfect ground based, fair, neutral centric experience of all time, and people would still complain its scrubby compared to the previous game they did well at
wazzaaa
Or they'd complain it was dead and you could never get any matches.
A similar thing happened from time to time with ccgs where people would complain the dominant games were too random and unbalanced and sometimes you didn't even get to play. Then someone would design something that lessened those issues (which were real if overstated), and then it turned out no one wanted to play it, because you never stole any wins from better players, and this meant you needed to be really motivated and stoic to push through the learning curve. And most people didn't actually want that, and the ones who did were still screwed because they wanted more people around to play against (and mostly beat).
@@bug-deal waazaaa
Sajam’s insight and level-headedness has him like the dad-figure of the FGC, where salty players be throwing their tantrums while he waits patiently, and when they’re done he just says “You get it all out, son?”
Of course, the world needs its Leffens and salty Menards, or else we’d have nothing to laugh at.
But please, FGC, elevate this man’s presence with more commentary offers. He is actively curing the world of some of its internet-induced brain rot
Man I love you so much... when I saw this exploding and obviously THE SF6 PRO said it... everyone was jumping on the badnwagon and I was like "Oh hell no, here we go again..." but you not only teach us about Fighting Games, you teach us to not be jerks and scrubs while simply enjoying the games, thanks. Also I completely died and exploded laughing at 7:34 as a Guilty Gear Player enjoyer of XX, Xrd and Strive
What gets me about stuff like this is that people always make these vague allusions to some sort of idealised vision of what the old/previous games were like. Like, they might as well literally be saying what Sajam said at the beginning with the whole "every time we meet in neutral we take ten steps back" thing; it's equally accurate. It's fine if you like the previous games better. Everyone has their favourite version or iteration of a thing. But let's not pretend the stuff is/was something it really is not.
It took me two watches to realize Chun-Li picked up the juggle after Rose fell through the bottom of the screen and came back down through the top.
What bothers me is : Mena is a PHENOMENAL player, but given the chance, he'll play in the most "scrubby" way possible. He won Evo with Birdie by never blocking, kept bull horning in every situation when the move used the beat strikes and avoid throws. Kept throwing that unpunishable sweep twice, kept throwing random ex bullheads etc etc.
He also won CEO with Blanca by never blocking.
He's an amazing player, but always tend to abuse the cheap stuff (which is ok, it's part of the game, and it's a talent). But I don't understand, how out one anyone, he's the one saying this.
just you wait until LTG starts saying “this dude would never beat me in SFV”
That chun offscreen combo is like, hokuto no ken levels 🤣
BRUH! What I was thinking! Almost expected *FATAL K.O.*
For more fun with busted old games: Alpha 2 - Rolento can do his back roll special to go run away and build meter.
Once he has level one, if you stand up within sweep range you basically just die. Slap a trio of buttons to activate CC, Sweep, Super Jump Short Kick x Whatever. For reasons only Capcom can explain this does eleventy billion damage. Opponent can't block after the activation. Good times.
Not even halfway the vid and im dying of laughter already lol. Definitely honest street fighter on display at 2:20 onwards 😂
This is one of THE best vids ive ever seen in regards to dumbass twitter discourse.
“It’s chun li must be honest FOOTsies” sajam got sajokes
In my day we fetishized being kicked by traditional, respectable Chinese feet. There were none of these Korean e-girl biker feet like the ones corrupting today's youth!
1:33 didn’t know about this tournament and him getting 2nd place, had a gut feeling that he lost a match or something when he tweeted this out, what a fool
Sajam you should should just go ahead and put out your "Are one button inputs for scrubs?" video now so you have it ready for when Project-L is released.
If you dash AND glow green at the same time don't even think about talking to me
It's crazy funny listening to people defend SFV now especially now when that game had like 0 options when it released. Imagine going back 6 some years back and looking at r mika vs Laura and going "yep, that's real footsies right there" when vshift never existed to save you from VTrigger robbery :)
“The game is scrubby if the character that i’ve committed isn’t always winning”
I noticed that scrubby usually means something hits me and i cant anticipate or react whats going on but thats how any type of competition is especially combat sports
I couldn't be bold enough to be the guy that willingly gets out there and contributes to starting the SF cycle anew.
Gotta love how they try to change history by claiming the older game was better because they played the final version for years when everything was data mined and solved. People keep acting like SF4 was some perfect gem of a game when Vanilla Sagat was murdering everyone and everyone was crying about how much they hated fighting Rufus. This happens every time. The game isn’t even two months old, there’s still lots to figure out.
The clips are funny, however, if you do look back at EVO 2015 Grand Finals for USFIV, you'll see that the majority of the set is played at mid to long range with some close-range play / mixups. This is a contrast to 2022 SFV EVO Grand Finals, which was majority close-range with occasional mid to long range play. I think it's the former types of sets that people are longing for when they say these things, even if they know old SF games still had their fair share of BS.
we didn't get footsies until Juri happened
I'll see myself out now
*Slow clap begins
If I wasn't able to go on Twitter 24 hours after a loss, I'd never be able to go on Twitter again. All I do is lose.
E Honda has the highest win rate in nearly every level of ranked.
He'll get toned down and it's not uncommon for weirder characters to be online demons
4:45 I'd never seen this clip before now and now it is one of my most favorite things ever.
Dee Jay drive rushing into the trash is hilarious 😂
Lol, where was that?
@@ApricatorIt’s in the thumbnail.
@@Apricator the thumbnail
lol
@@EarthLordCJ Ah, cheers, completely missed the thumbnail
‘You must defeat Johnny Doughnuts to stand a chance’
Sajam has the take I have. If you lose, your twitter account is disabled for 24 hours. Same shit happens with Mena as with Punk and other people
Sajam, you're truly the best. This is content ahaha
Clearly the last honest street fighter game is the arcade version of Street Fighter the Movie the game.
The day the arcade version of street fighter the movie the game was released was the most important day of your gaming life, but for the arcade version of street fighter the movie the game, it was Tuesday
everyone's just slowly turning into low tier god
Ground based neutral and footsies is considered honest and good rather than just a game state... like... why THIS aspect the "holy grail"? If we play a grounded game and my character has a longer poke is it a "scrubby" character?
I just want fighting games to return to the honest neutral that we saw in Dive Kick.
This is one example where scrubs who play a large variety of games across genres have a slight advantage. We have seen this same exact discourse in FPS games, MMOs, RPGs, puzzle games, rock throwing and hopscotch. It’s fine to like older games but there is always a certain familiar bias that bends discussions in ways that aren’t fair to any of the games or players involved.
Reminds me of something someone once said that stuck with me: "people don't want to go back to playing Goldeneye, they want to go back to the time in their life when they played Goldeneye"
I, too, thought the word was so much better back before people started calling me out on having rose-colored glasses ;)
It should be required of every tournament player to tweet inmediatly after being eliminated, don't even let them get off the ring without tweeting.
FGC once again proving right the old adage of "those who don't learn from history".
Unless your JWong. Then it seems like everyone in the FGC learned to Daigo parry when he wasn’t looking.
Thank you for this video. It seems the cycle never ends with the FGC.
And no one can't end it unless they do it themselves
Honest to god SFV is the only SF game that I've played that I genuinely hate, I bitch about SF6's issues a lot but man it's the most invested I've felt in a fighting game in a LONG time
I agree I bought a ps4 to play 5 and I was disappointed immediately the worst sf game ever
It’s less about honesty, more about what is harder to accomplish for the reward you’re getting.