In another news: You're still not diamond or master?? Just get that character and you will be master in no time! It's so easy! Skills? Read? Reaction? Nonsense! According to twitter specialists you just need to spam drive rush!
I remember a long time ago Sajam said "people are complaining about X character, I wonder which tournament someone won with X character recently." Nice to see time is a flat circle.
fr fr I also noticed this weird issue where if I press buttons I sometimes don't win?? also why can people do things to counter my plan?? big issues need patch naow
Yea he definitely is lol and don’t get me wrong I love punk as well I watch his channel a lot but he’s bipolar I swear lol. He’s got a new opinion about what needs to be changed every week and he tends to overreact and say bold things on Twitter about the game at times
It's true, but he does it on purpose. It's free attention and notoriety, which means more people checking his socials, sharing his takes, and ultimately giving him some form of monetary gain(whether it be Twitch subscriptions, donations or invites to events with nice payouts). It's a classic way to make bank and people fall for it... forever.
Kind of ties into people's natural tendency to attribute their own successes to their own efforts vs. attributing other people's success to luck/non-effort (internal vs. external locus of control). A key lesson for personal growth in general is realising this "bias" and focusing on what areas you as an individual need to improve on. Why I love your channel!
When you were covering Strive and talking about how the FGC just repeats the same talking points every few years I just took your word for it because it was my first game. Seeing it firsthand is something else though. Godspeed to you for not just giving up on them for how many times you've have to repeat points.
Breaking news: Historic top 20 all time Street Fighter player beats historic top 20 Street Fighter player with a character that exists inside of a video game.
Capcom should do a thing where they put a little crown on a character in the select screen. It does nothing, it's just there. 70% of the time it's on Ken on JP. The other times it's on a completely random character. Move it around every one or two weeks.
That's actually a hilarious social experiment; it's totally random and not based on any actual real-time data, but we watch it and see how it affects character usage. Having it on Ken and JP 70% of the time is all it would take to make people subconsciously believe it means something.
"Mankind knew they cannot change society. So instead of reflecting on themselves, they blame the beasts." That quote ages like fine wine by the day whenever an "xx is broken" gets tweeted out.
I feel people complaining on Twitter hoping to influence the developers decisions are smoking something strong. I imagine it's vastly more likely the devs use data they collect that doesn't involving reading whining (i.e. tournament results and online results (The latter being a great source of data))
This reminds me I recently saw a guy who made it his lifes purpose online to try and get people to boycott Alan Wake 2 because it didn't get a physical release, meanwhile like 85%+ of all game sales are digital now lmao
I hope so but I remember when panda won the Tekken twt and got nerfed afterwards. Even though it's like the worst character in the game. The cycle continues
It's salt, pure salt. Every aspect of the game has been complained about: perfect parry, drive rush, throw loops, various characters, and what not. I'm honestly hoping the devs use social media information weighted at like 10% of their decision making.
I mean, it worked with 4 and 5 and xrd and strive and Tekken 7 and dbz fighter and etc... It's about time Capcom stops and lets the game breathe for a good year
@@StreyX Meanwhile, my issues are the same as they've been since launch. Ken and JP really are extremely strong and in an advantageous position most of the time, which also means you're more likely to come across them. Still the case. Also, DR screen freeze still makes my jumps not come out sometimes, regardless of whether or not the input is technically being "eaten." Never said any part of the drive system needs a nerf. I like DR. DI is sufficiently high-risk. Parries are also pretty high-risk, and Perfect Parries are hard to do consistently. Game's pretty balanced, but a couple characters are a little too blessed and a couple tweaks could be done to improve it.
i just wanna say as a relatively casual player who goes to tournaments now and then, when a game gets patched too often i just lose interest. i come from smash primarily (specifically, Brawl back like a decade ago) and trying to get into some games has just been trying to figure stuff out and then it gets changed in a month. i'm really enjoying the slow pace of SF6 cuz it's let me actually learn what characters can do.
I started playing competitive with Smash Ultimate and then I completely gave up on Smash for Street Fighter 6 and I feel like my skill is rewarded a lot better in it. The DLC characters were really overpowered in Ultimate so I was wishing for some patches to elevate the base roster to the same level. I was really hoping they would treat it as the Ultimate Smash game and try to balance things more at the end, but it was the opposite. It feels like the game was designed to destroy the competitive community. I am a lot more cautious about what DLC could do in Street Fighter more than balance patches because of this. If DLC started being crazy and quietly shifting the balance of power, then it would really discourage me. Thankfully, there are no signs of that happening right now.
I know shortly after release they said there wouldn't be any balance patches for the first year. Do they intend to stick with that balance patch schedule after this upcoming patch?
we don't know at present, i imagine with whatever announcement we get (probably at capcom cup) for season 2 would be the place to mention. @@Sevatar_VIIIth
To be fair, for a game that has yet to be seriously patched, SF6 is incredibly well balanced. Yeah, there are characters that need some love and others needing to be reeled in, but not one character stands out too much.
I really thought so as well. In this industry where games need patches and changes constantly, a fighting game with all these variables and dlc coming out with _no balance patches_ is just a new concept to me xD
See what happens when the dev team decides to delay the game longer instead of rush to meet a release date? It's nice to see some still have pride in their work.
I distinctly remember there being less complaints about arcade edition yun in 4, a character intentionally designed to be a tier above everyone else than there currently is about the top tiers in 6, despite them in the grand scheme of fighting game balance being a SMIDGE better than everyone else.
That's because the environment is completely different though. Majority of FGC discourse(like most hobbiest discourse) was located in forums or small local communities, and the actual "knowledge" surrounding fighting games was extremely hit-or-miss, especially when hiding tech for competition was common and easy. And now fighting games are more popular than ever, the internet has converged into everyone existing on the same social media platforms at once, and a lot of the "knowledge" is more accessible than it's ever been. Which means not only are there more eyes(and mouths), but their doing it on websites designed to reward toxicity.
@@demidevilqueenAdditionally to all that, the community really became more immature and entitled. Their behavior is affected first of all by the new reality of frequent internet patching, that wasn't the standard practice in SF4. Secondly it's the actual realization that their words might have some influence on the community by reinforcing some discourse. And that ultimately might influence the company, that is more aware of what is going on the community exactly through social media. It's not about single individual posts, but the collective effect of the discourse, that becomes a reference in the community and basically for the company as feedback. A good example is this actual video (a Sajam staple already) that references a sum of opinions of both true influencers and unknown people, giving a good idea of what's the community is thinking and talking about in a general way. It becomes a good reference point for researchers.
NRS has really turned me off frequent patching. I can understand people being upset SF6 isn't getting a patch for ages, but they at least balanced the game so well to begin with that a patch really isn't necessary.
Remember when fuudo was one of the best street fighter players in sf4 and 5 putting both his respective characters for each game, fei long and r. mika, on the map competitively? I dont, this motherfuckers CARRIED BY DEE JAY!!!!
As someone who grinds this videogame pretty regularly I really feel like complaining about any specific character's strength and focusing on what feels "unfair" just poisons your enjoyment of the game. I feel like the most selfish thing you can do for yourself is to not focus on reasons another character is better instead of how you can adapt. But I also see the value in actually hypothetically affecting some change with a game patch, which can make the game feel more enjoyable.
From what I've seen from different kinds of competitive scenes, it's that balanced risk/reward is antithetical to the competitive mindset of seeking low risk/high reward play. So any naive developer who wants to create a "fair and balanced" game runs the risk of creating low risk/low reward gameplay in a doomed attempt to satiate the competitive players, when high risk/high reward gameplay is what is actually _fun_ to play. That's what killed the Halo 3 multi-player, that's what killed multiple fighting games scenes, it's just a constant theme. Good designers make high reward gameplay riskier, so for example if a character's moveset is "OP" you design a character designed to be a counterpick to them, or a mechanic that allows for a mindless approach to be countered. The way to balance the fireball isn't by making them weaker, it's by making jump in attacks. You balance jump in attacks by making anti-airs. You balance anti-airs by making them easily punishable if they whiff. None of this means actually making characters weaker or moves have less range.
Theoretically, I guess people may voice their opinions to get things changed just like they wish they could change the government. The problem is that there is no voting process and no guarantee that anyone outside of the top is being heard. Everyone is working with an immature perspective. Some may be using it for personal gain, but others may think that a popular opinion is their vote to improving the game.
@fluidthought42 While I get the overall idea of buffs being better than nerfs, if you only buff you can eventually end up in a situation where the next buff you have to make is to increase the default amount of rounds you need to win a set because your in a highly volatile game and it's super easy to snowball.
@@simplyeyeronic1443 As in a per match snowballing or a per interaction snowballing? Because I'm not sure a per match snowballing is possible in SF6 without abundant one touches, and per interaction the balancing factor would be difficulty of maintaining the combo and being adequately punishable with correct counterplay. But that's just a general problem with bad balancing, and one that SF6 nicely mitigates with mechanics like its parries. I do find it interesting how Capcom experimented with resource management though. We have around 5 characters that have stock based moves but the approach with Jamie is different from the approach with Manon which is different than Blanka. Hope this experimentation helps them find their balance.
I like Strive, but Arcsys "balance" is mystifying. It's disheartening to leave the game for over a year, come back and find that characters like Nago, HC and Ram are still dominant and my boy Faust is still trash.
@@ironclad6471 the difference between tiers in Strive is pretty small; especially on current patch you can be an absolute menace with Faust if you learn to control neutral with him and some of his tech, though I think he was actually more menacing a few patches ago
It's kinda funny, I've been part of the "Nerf Johnny Squad" but only in the sense that I assumed the discourse is in good faith. I genuinely think Johnny could use 1-2 frames of block advantage removed from his normals... but that's it. And honestly, if NRS never touches Johnny it'd be fine... he's really strong but not busted (like Sindel/Jax apparently lmao). But I see other people's suggestions, and they sound absolutely wild. And looking at it from the perspective of "I don't wanna learn nerf him" makes a lot of sense now ahahaha... If that's where we're at, fuck it leave Johnny alone then. I'd rather he be untouched than nerfed into the ground.
My exact perspective. People don't want to learn how to fight against Cage, so they'd rather cry for nerfs. Fuck that, leave him be - buff the lower tiers only.
"you never even want to settle with a character and sit down and grind to get good at them you just play whoever is good this patch" was the mindset that made me quit overwatch, getting flamed for playing anything other than the top two tanks that month felt like shit
I attribute some of this to the way we write headlines about fighting games. "Zangief wins CPT qualifier" is a much snappier headline than "Veteran grappler player Snake Eyez wins CPT Qualifier with Zangief". When news comes out about a low-tier having an impressive showing, it's never about the player. When Mena won with Blanka, the headlines were about Blanka. It's only natural. Snake has been playing Zangief since before a lot of us were playing fighting games. He's one of the most experienced grappler players in the world. But people on twitter see "Zangief wins tournament" and that's all that really registers to them. It becomes "x character is broken" instead of "if you put in the work, even x character has tools that are really strong."
The process behind this type of discourse is that each Twitter user will save twenty different drafts, each one complaining about a different cast members. Once grand finals of a large tournament rolls around, they will hone in on the two tweets corresponding to the characters being played on the screen. This sets up for a frame perfect OS when the last K.O. flashes on the screen to post the correct Tweet in regards to which character wins.
I think there are so many ken players that people are figuring out how to counterplay against him. Pretty simple. The balancing is actually pretty decent in this game.
Coming from games that patch way too often and inevitably create a never ending cascade of balance issues, I love the way Capcom is handling SF6 balance. Get it pretty right first time, then wait. The way we've seen some characters on the up lately reminds me of StarCraft Brood War, when Bisu pioneered strats that flipped Zerg vs Protoss from being Zerg favoured to Protoss favoured. They called him the Revolutionist. Slow, careful balance changes are 100% better for a game and for players. If Chess came out today week 2 people call for Castling to be nerfed and say Knights are too awkard to use.
Broodwar is a prime example of how an unchanged game can still have drastic shifts in the meta when players figure out shit. Of course, RTS games are more complex than fighting games but the same can hold true in fighters as well.
@@no_nameyouknow yeah, every time someone claims a one year old game is solved, im just like. "do you really think your game is so many orders of magnitude simpler than old games that have gone a decade without a patch?". (honestly my hot take is that games as a general rule just, shouldnt have balance patches)
It's much harder to accurately tell what a player is doing well than to complain about the things that seem unfair. I'd be interested to see more breakdowns from you on pro play discussing what different pros bring to the match irrespective of the character picked.
As a zangief player, i assure you, i simply LOVE the once a year cycle. CAUSE I CAN ACTUALLY LEARN AND GET BETTER AT THE GAME, MATCHUPS, AND MY CHARACTER, I LOVE THE GRIND OF IMPROVEMENT AND ADAPTATION, GROWTH IS THE APPEAL OF THESE GAMES FOR ME!
I like the idea of a patch every 6 months. I'm not sure I'd be happy with more frequent than that. But seriously.... I want more costumes for the main cast. We should get one every new character added. Every. Single. One. I'm drowning in Battle hub trash. Gimme costumes NOW
The topics change, but complaints about any characters that exist in a fighting game can all coexist. Complaining about one does not necessarily invalidate or ignore the complaints about the others.
That is why I wish people in fighting games were more aware and better at teaching. Most people will not even try to answer reasonable basic questions when they are obviously more knowledgeable. Peers should understand that people have different struggles and especially at lower levels that can make characters that are supposed to be weak feel like the best in the game. To me, it feels like Jamie and Ryu are the toughest to fight, but I have gotten a bit better against Ryu. Zangief is probably there too because it feels like the only reason I win is because my opponent was playing very badly.
Sf 6 seems like it’s doing okay to pretty good. But stale meta’s are a real thing. As long as the top 10’s of tournaments aren’t 3/4 one character it seems viable
I don't think the game has a stale meta, and if it did, I'd rather have stale meta built by the players rather then an artificial one build by the devs
I say the current meta is pretty good despite some characters has better result than the others. Here are the characters than won this year (offline & online) CPT: 3 Ken, 2 Luke, 2 Dee Jay, 1 Zangief, 1 Rashid, 1 Chun Li, 1 JP, and 1 Guile. And here are the characters that got 2nd place at (offline & online) CPT: 3 Luke, 2 JP, 2 Ken, 1 Dhalsim, 1 Manon, 1 Ryu, 1 Blanka, and 1 Guile. We still have 9 premier online CPT and 1 offline LCQ before Capcom Cup X.
Is this referring to Strive's meta? Because I know a lot of people aren't happy that the top tiers have stayed mostly the same throughout the game's life cycle
Honey wake up, it's been 2 years since sajam talked about patches in fighting games, time to put some sense into the fgc head again. I'm guessing the next video will be about "fighting games aren't inherently more difficult, have you looked at a moba?"
Patching to appease the community is a fool's quest and I really wish more devs learned to just sit with a balance patch for a few months rather than snap respond. Competitive games like League and Overwatch always have to learn this and it's frustrating because it's such an unforced error!
The example I always give is Melee. The game has been out since 2001, and the only "patch" it got was the PAL version which we dont even use anymore. Donkey Kong for that whole time has been seen as a low to mid tier and not viable as a solo main. And within the past year, a documentary has been made on the new surge of DK players that have been putting in work, and Junebug recently got 13th at one of the biggest tournaments of the year using solo DK. (DK's greatest tournament run ever) Especially in a game with strong universal mechanics like SF6, I think its a very good idea to let the meta develop before making drastic changes.
I’m always perplexed by the phenomenon, since it’s always exactly the same in every single game. Although it is worse in some games, and I think SF6 is balanced pretty well compared to most.
Also last thing. I think capcom is making the right decision to not parch the game for a while so they can gather as much data as possible before making any decisions. I think when the patch does come out its gonna be a good one and even if there are nerfs it shouldn't make the nerfed characters unplayable.
Not at all - just try to put everyone on the same "tier". No character should be S and A tier, while others are C and D. Just balance the game. Harder to do than say, but it would be great if this was the goal.
@@Arctanis-vt3hl Right, because that isn't the entire point of balancing a fighter to begin with (/s). I seriously doubt devs start with a plan like "okay, this character will be top-tier, and this one is on the bottom." Other than Dan, the point is to make everything as balanced as possible; tier lists are an unavoidable thing because perfect balance is impossible when not all characters are identical.
@@Arctanis-vt3hlIt’s not just hard, it’s impossible. Tiers will always exist, no matter how balanced a game is. That’s just the nature of asymmetrical competitive game design. The real goal is to make a fun game, then try to make that gap as small as possible with which SF6 does extremely well.
As far as patching goes, I think twice a year is the sweet spot personally. Once a year feels like too little and could stick the game in a bad spot for too long, while even at 3 times per year I start to feel like it may be too much (enough so that I'd prefer once a year to it if they won't do twice). This aside from emergency patches to fix legitimately broken things, like launch Rashid's level 2, of course. Those you always do as needed.
The focus on the character is actively infuriating. People say “dude Ken won the tournament”. Ken didn’t fucking win the tournament, the person playing Ken won the tournament. People are ignoring the player behind the character so much that, if you didn’t know about the tournament, you wouldn’t know that Fuudo just won a tournament. All you’d know is that Deejay “won” a tournament. It feels disrespectful to the time and work the players put in to win these tournaments by reducing their skill and win to their character only. Player skill is so important in fighting games but if you just looked at twitter you’d think character was the most importing thing.
I love the current patch schedule of sf6. Im really new to fighting games, and having a year to learn my character has really helped me learn. If i had to relearn mechanics every few weeks i think my progress would bot be as fast. I feel like theres a element of that in all levels as well. Really strong players building actual mastery over their characters, being able to really dig into the minutiae of their characters and play them better than would be possible if you hve to rebuild muscle memory more frequently. I think we see more character diversity than if there were frequent adjustments. Like Sajam spoke about in his MKX example.
Best part of having patches like sf6 is doing is instead of every patch being like “oh we made this characters stand lp 1 frame slower , thats it” instead we will probably be getting big changes which is really exciting almost like it’s own event
I kind of like less frequent patches. I think it makes me a better player. I’m a Kimberly main, I think we can all agree she’s solidly mid tier. Not very strong, but not the worst either. To me learning her now is only going to make me better if she ever gets a buff and help me cope if she gets nerfed.
Fr. You actually get to focus on the intricacies and what makes the game shine. Instead of wondering what frame/property a move is and if it’s still the same from last patch.
I like the long times between patches. As you say, I like that it means the community works on strategies. I remember with UMVC3, Wesker was seen as a problem on release, but with time and practice, he dropped hard. A reactionary patch wasn’t required.
Your post makes it seem like Wesker went from the best character in the game to a very bad one. It was never that Wesker was magically figured out. He was still an incredibly good character that was one of the best anchors in the game. It's that cheaper characters like Virgil were fleshed out. It wasn't an issue of answers to Wesker. It was an issue of more overwhelming overpowering characters. Tourneys still had teams full of Weskers and none full of Hsien Kos. Using Marvel in this discussion is a poor example.
This is very much a western culture thing, it's really the egos. I've explained to different people many times that Japan's tier lists are heavily influenced by the players in their pool, and the west treats it the complete opposite way.
Deejay and juri are my favorite characters. The only reason I don't play deejay more is because I can't charge like a normal person lol. I'll kill my down back if I play charge characters too long
Sajam just described the entire league of legends community: complain about the "broken character" of the patch, not do anything to learn how to play against it, wait for the next patch to "solve" the problem for them. Repeat when next patch drops.
This reminds me of how Brandon (aka Home Made Waffles) will describe the flow of the Melee character meta as different characters' stocks going up or down. In 2019 Captain Falcon's stock was on the rise, with three in the top ten, and Wizzy even winning a major with Falcon for the first time in more than ten years. Nowadays, Sheik's stock is on the rise, with Jmook RTCing everyone, and Leffen developing a secondary Shiek for the Marth matchup, and a number of Shiek rising stars. The meta game moves ever onwards, people find and develop new tech, new strats, etc all the time. There's also been a Donkey Kong renaissance moving him up to mid-tier, with some of them even flirting with getting top 8 at majors, unthinkable a few years ago. Not to mention Amsa and Axe carrying Yoshi and Pikachu to the point that they've broken into high tier. Still hasn't been patched since 2002, and we don't even play on that patch (PAL) due to to the America-centric nature of Melee, so effectively no patch since 2001. That patch can drink even in America. EDIT: That's not to say there aren't changes that I think Melee would benefit from. As a community we like the Frozen Stadium, and I 100% support that. I'd also like Whispy to stop, the Fly Guys removed, get rid of the RNG on Fountain, Battlefield's ledges fixed, etc... you know: QOL changes.
This is very interesting. I came from FPS games, mainly overwatch, and over there we have constant issue of people not trying to think and relying on developers to nerf strongest characters or buff 'weak' character just because people think they're too strong/weak. and then people learn how to play that "weak" character and with new buffs it actually insanely powerful, while in what seemed like a weak state, was actually balanced and fair. So i'm surprised and glad that Fighting games not patched often and people have time to figure out solutions by themselves. i think it's a lot better. unless character has exploits devs missed.
Ken players have been acting up, but the real downplaying criminals are Juri players. The literal second that JP and Ken became cemented top 2 they skipped off into the sunset with their teleport drive rush, +2 on block forward-advancing medium punch, and forward throw that instantly corners you. Not even top 10 they try to tell me
Nah, Juri main here, and she's definitely around 6th-8th, only probably beaten out by Ken, JP, Luke, Dee Jay and Cammy. A couple others are debatable, and I can understand people arguing her place compared to Dee Jay and Cammy among others.
Crazy how people like big bird will rate a character like Rashid at A+ and then immediately tweet "damn did we underestimate rashid" as soon as someone wins a tournament with that character 😂😂 balance is good if players will constantly try to reconsider character tier lists on a weekly basis almost 😂
The frequent patching of games like League is a blessing and a curse. If a character is super busted and unfun to play against, it’s very likely that you only gotta wait 2 weeks for that to change. On the other hand, if a character that you like suddenly becomes busted then you’re suddenly getting hated out if the game by both the community and the in-game systems. It really sucks sometimes
Every game with balancing faces this issue, not just fighting gams. Anything that beats people or wins tourneys or even just does well is considered too good and people want it nerfed to the floor and beyond. What they fail to realize is that once that character gets nerfed, the good players move on to someone else and then whoever they play is suddenly the problem. Reactive nerfing inherently cannot work because rather than learning how to be better at solving the problem, you just push it aside and keep demanding it be done for you until it does but then a new issue comes up and its the same cycle all over again.
Just coming off of League of Legends worlds, it's always interesting to see which characters are considered the best at the start of the tournament vs what counterplay gets developed mid tournament. It's something you don't normally get to see with the 2 week patch cycle league has, but see all the time in fighting games due to them generally patching less.
I don't have issues with characters in SF6 mostly i just think the systems are too strong and favor already strong characters to make them even stronger.
Wouldn't Sajam's criticims about frequent patches not apply if the strategy was to buff weaker characters and leave the strong ones as they are? Zangief suddenly becoming twice as powerful on paper doesn't drastically change how he is playing his chosen characters. It means adjusting his match-up knowledge against Zangief specifically, but it doesn't force him to change who his current main character is, and his general strategy when playing should also remain the same.
I understand that Classic Zangief isn't popular, but I can't look at Modern Gief and wish a buff for them. Perhaps Capcom can create different balances for different control schemes?
In terms of the patch I think you hit the nail on the head, the current version of SF6 is one of the best first drafts for a fighting game I've seen. That's why I genuinely think there should be little to no nerfs in the balance patch next year. Like I hate fighting say Ken and Cammy but do they need nerfs? Nah, everyone below them and the other top tiers just need a few buffs. They really just have to bring everyone up to the level of being a "Street Fighter 6 Character" like the top 7 or 8 characters in the roster.
Even in non-competitive games like Diablo 4 or Path of Exile, this “lobbying and complaining” problem is there as well. It’s just toxic and ruins the entire community, be it on Twitter or Reddit or Forums. When approached, people will bring up they are only offering “constructive criticism “ or their rights as a “paying customer”. Patch/balance begging / unsolicited feedback is a plague in the fan communities and it is made even worse when the developers actually listens and makes patches. Like you said, people will just turn their attention to begging/bullying the devs rather than enjoying the game. Even players who have been just playing without complaining are now very worried that the devs suddenly knee jerk patches and ruins their hard work. I am up for frequent bug fixes, but definitely not balance patches. The latter will just cause a downward spiral of overloaded devs and angry fans.
I kinda like how capcom is just letting people fully discover the game and how all the characters play before they make any huge balance changes. I think they said they wouldn’t until after all the season 1 characters are released so after akuma who is the last early next year. Because it’s not always good to overreact to community feedback and rush to make changes right away. I mean look how much the community’s opinions have changed about certain characters over the past couple of months. I understand a lot of pros are kinda getting restless and want them to shake things up and change some stuff but again I don’t think it’s a good idea to overreact to everyone’s feedback. Also can we acknowledge how Sajam is the most level headed dude in the FGC next to max
We had a new character in Rashid a week or 2 before EVO and people went crazy how Rashid would run rampant. What happened? There was 1 Rashid in top 64 (Momochi in 13th) and nobody really cared.
This kind of discourse is so much stronger and commonplace in the NRS community, people over there just refuse to accept the concept that player strength matters more than their character. I've tried to get into MK1 because the game is fun but I just feel so alienated by insanely toxic environment surrounding it. SF FGC definitely has its moments and it's important to call them out but also it could be so much worse.
9:10 I remember this happening when they first buffed drone on Gold Lewis and everybody was losing their shit, and then they were saying stuff like “it’s crazy that drone can do xyz! Why did they buff him like this??” When in reality drone always did that and Sajam said that they were just telling the world that they had no idea how to fight Gold Lewis lmao
When you learn the frame data of an OP smash attack in Melee, you have that knowledge forever. The game will never be patched. No lessons go to waste, and there's less reason to complain about balance. Chess hasn't been patched in a long time. This is why I wish someone would be a fighting game with no patches.
I still play Ken (stuck in D4) and I love the character. Not just him but the roster is legit fun all together, anyone can play these characters that they’re complaining about.
Sf6 convinced me that the more balanced your game is, the more infantile, sad, unhinged the """discourse""" over balance is The community just keeps vindicating the dev's decision to patch the game once a year
smash ultimate has had literal bottom-eight characters (in a cast of 82) in the top-eight at major tournaments, and people are still crying for balance patches. i thought it was just smash players but apparently not.
giving credit to good players won't give me an out when a low-tier main does good against me with someone I should have a good matchup against, when I haven't studied said matchup or even attempted to exploit the weaknesses that make said character weak.
I think in general this is just something online culture propagates? Kinda an obvious statement, but while watching this video I was kinda just reminded of how my scene functions. Every single time someone complains about a character, everybody from my region that happens to hear it is like "yea yea yea the character is crazy, one of the reasons I think Y is so good with them is because he's put so many hours on this game or that game or this thing or that thing." It's like acceptance of the salt as it is, and then immediately gassing up the person who won. So even the people who are getting rocked have to take a beat and like, accept that. I think it's a way healthier community to be in simply because so few of them are glued on twitter like that. Like was I complaining about Rashid when my buddy was beating the hell out of me last week? Yes. Did I also immediately say "yea X is so so so good at placing his crMK I feel like the button is so strong when I'm playing against X's Rashid"? Yes. I feel like the takeaway is maybe don't be so mean to ur friends when ur losing.
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Breaking: Pro Player does well with their chosen character. More at 11.
In another news: You're still not diamond or master?? Just get that character and you will be master in no time! It's so easy! Skills? Read? Reaction? Nonsense! According to twitter specialists you just need to spam drive rush!
@@AzelasFromHyruleyou had us in the first half ngl
I remember a long time ago Sajam said "people are complaining about X character, I wonder which tournament someone won with X character recently." Nice to see time is a flat circle.
In other words, Sajam has a pet theory on how things work, so he cherry picks some random tourny to "confirm" his theory.
"What is that Nietzsche?! Shut the fk up."
😂 Rust
It is absolutely unhinged that one of the best SF4 and SF5 players is also one of the best SF6 players!!! Who could have seen this coming?!
And how does he keep picking characters that just so happen to deserve nerfs!?!!!???
How could Harada do this!?
You're killng me dude
@@EarthLordCJDaiskue needs to fix this NOW so that I WIN!
I mean so it’s balanced
So I've come across this game breaking bug where when DeeJay hits me, I take damage. I hope Capcom fixes this in the next patch.
This comment needs to be nerfed😂
fr fr I also noticed this weird issue where if I press buttons I sometimes don't win?? also why can people do things to counter my plan?? big issues need patch naow
😂
Smh This bug didn't exist in SF4 it's so sad to see a company regress like this
I'm looking forward to Project L purely because the FGC will have to engage with a playerbase that complains more than they do.
Gonna be some amazing scrub quotes
No league player is gonna play PL.
No one likes CC and hitstun is absolute ass on the receiving end as CCs go.
@@seokkyunhong8812 I'm a league player and I'm gonna play project L
No League player is going to be GOOD at PL. Everyone is going to play it because it's a League fighting game@@seokkyunhong8812
@@seokkyunhong8812 Stop being weird and let people play what the like. In fact, go play what you like.
This proves Capcom's approach to patches is the right one, since people every month complain about a different character, without constant patches.
Predictions for future complaints/boogey monsters ahead of time: Chun-Li, modern Cammy, Akuma
@@Amalingoh believe me, people will complain about any new character before they’re even released.
@@Mx_Sneezylike rashid when he was released before EVO. People were convinced he was gonna sf5 his way to top 8, but that definitely didnt happen.
Remember when people said Manon was gonna be scary because her target combo pulls you into grab range? Game came out and now she's what, bottom 7?
@@MystyrNileshe's good it just .... she 's got to play so much more neutral than most, I feel, and that is just nerve-wracking
Tbh I love Punk's play and talent, one of my all-time faves, but he's a major instigator of this ridiculousness.
Facts pros needs a day off after an L to avoid salty tweets 😂 that or people stop taking salty tweets seriously
Punk has the IRL IQ of a potato
Yea he definitely is lol and don’t get me wrong I love punk as well I watch his channel a lot but he’s bipolar I swear lol. He’s got a new opinion about what needs to be changed every week and he tends to overreact and say bold things on Twitter about the game at times
Sometimes I'm impressed with how much Punk has matured... and sometimes I'm just like "Ahh yes there's the shithead I know."
It's true, but he does it on purpose. It's free attention and notoriety, which means more people checking his socials, sharing his takes, and ultimately giving him some form of monetary gain(whether it be Twitch subscriptions, donations or invites to events with nice payouts).
It's a classic way to make bank and people fall for it... forever.
Kind of ties into people's natural tendency to attribute their own successes to their own efforts vs. attributing other people's success to luck/non-effort (internal vs. external locus of control).
A key lesson for personal growth in general is realising this "bias" and focusing on what areas you as an individual need to improve on. Why I love your channel!
If sf6 actually had as many problems as people make it out to be as of recent, i would have dropped sf6 and not mk1.
Truth
No patches and every new week there is a new tech that makes characters just seem really different, unlike mk1 one tournament = nerfs
When you were covering Strive and talking about how the FGC just repeats the same talking points every few years I just took your word for it because it was my first game. Seeing it firsthand is something else though.
Godspeed to you for not just giving up on them for how many times you've have to repeat points.
I can't believe Fuudo is really good. Insane, truly.
Breaking news: Historic top 20 all time Street Fighter player beats historic top 20 Street Fighter player with a character that exists inside of a video game.
Remember in SFV - Fuudo was the only Mika who didn't play like an idiot... but everyone else did.
I feel like Sajam could go “yea everyone 2+2 does in-fact equal 4” and people would still be mad
Capcom should do a thing where they put a little crown on a character in the select screen. It does nothing, it's just there.
70% of the time it's on Ken on JP. The other times it's on a completely random character. Move it around every one or two weeks.
That's actually a hilarious social experiment; it's totally random and not based on any actual real-time data, but we watch it and see how it affects character usage. Having it on Ken and JP 70% of the time is all it would take to make people subconsciously believe it means something.
Sajam being right about everything yet again.
Common Sage-jam W.
"Mankind knew they cannot change society. So instead of reflecting on themselves, they blame the beasts." That quote ages like fine wine by the day whenever an "xx is broken" gets tweeted out.
I feel people complaining on Twitter hoping to influence the developers decisions are smoking something strong. I imagine it's vastly more likely the devs use data they collect that doesn't involving reading whining (i.e. tournament results and online results (The latter being a great source of data))
This reminds me I recently saw a guy who made it his lifes purpose online to try and get people to boycott Alan Wake 2 because it didn't get a physical release, meanwhile like 85%+ of all game sales are digital now lmao
I hope so but I remember when panda won the Tekken twt and got nerfed afterwards. Even though it's like the worst character in the game. The cycle continues
It's salt, pure salt. Every aspect of the game has been complained about: perfect parry, drive rush, throw loops, various characters, and what not. I'm honestly hoping the devs use social media information weighted at like 10% of their decision making.
I mean, it worked with 4 and 5 and xrd and strive and Tekken 7 and dbz fighter and etc... It's about time Capcom stops and lets the game breathe for a good year
@@StreyX Meanwhile, my issues are the same as they've been since launch. Ken and JP really are extremely strong and in an advantageous position most of the time, which also means you're more likely to come across them. Still the case. Also, DR screen freeze still makes my jumps not come out sometimes, regardless of whether or not the input is technically being "eaten." Never said any part of the drive system needs a nerf. I like DR. DI is sufficiently high-risk. Parries are also pretty high-risk, and Perfect Parries are hard to do consistently. Game's pretty balanced, but a couple characters are a little too blessed and a couple tweaks could be done to improve it.
i just wanna say as a relatively casual player who goes to tournaments now and then, when a game gets patched too often i just lose interest. i come from smash primarily (specifically, Brawl back like a decade ago) and trying to get into some games has just been trying to figure stuff out and then it gets changed in a month. i'm really enjoying the slow pace of SF6 cuz it's let me actually learn what characters can do.
I started playing competitive with Smash Ultimate and then I completely gave up on Smash for Street Fighter 6 and I feel like my skill is rewarded a lot better in it. The DLC characters were really overpowered in Ultimate so I was wishing for some patches to elevate the base roster to the same level. I was really hoping they would treat it as the Ultimate Smash game and try to balance things more at the end, but it was the opposite. It feels like the game was designed to destroy the competitive community. I am a lot more cautious about what DLC could do in Street Fighter more than balance patches because of this. If DLC started being crazy and quietly shifting the balance of power, then it would really discourage me. Thankfully, there are no signs of that happening right now.
I know shortly after release they said there wouldn't be any balance patches for the first year. Do they intend to stick with that balance patch schedule after this upcoming patch?
we don't know at present, i imagine with whatever announcement we get (probably at capcom cup) for season 2 would be the place to mention. @@Sevatar_VIIIth
To be fair, for a game that has yet to be seriously patched, SF6 is incredibly well balanced. Yeah, there are characters that need some love and others needing to be reeled in, but not one character stands out too much.
I really thought so as well. In this industry where games need patches and changes constantly, a fighting game with all these variables and dlc coming out with _no balance patches_ is just a new concept to me xD
See what happens when the dev team decides to delay the game longer instead of rush to meet a release date? It's nice to see some still have pride in their work.
I distinctly remember there being less complaints about arcade edition yun in 4, a character intentionally designed to be a tier above everyone else than there currently is about the top tiers in 6, despite them in the grand scheme of fighting game balance being a SMIDGE better than everyone else.
That's because the environment is completely different though. Majority of FGC discourse(like most hobbiest discourse) was located in forums or small local communities, and the actual "knowledge" surrounding fighting games was extremely hit-or-miss, especially when hiding tech for competition was common and easy.
And now fighting games are more popular than ever, the internet has converged into everyone existing on the same social media platforms at once, and a lot of the "knowledge" is more accessible than it's ever been. Which means not only are there more eyes(and mouths), but their doing it on websites designed to reward toxicity.
If only these people were around when Yun came out, and if you played ranked he was the only character you fought for months. Good times
@@demidevilqueenAdditionally to all that, the community really became more immature and entitled. Their behavior is affected first of all by the new reality of frequent internet patching, that wasn't the standard practice in SF4.
Secondly it's the actual realization that their words might have some influence on the community by reinforcing some discourse. And that ultimately might influence the company, that is more aware of what is going on the community exactly through social media. It's not about single individual posts, but the collective effect of the discourse, that becomes a reference in the community and basically for the company as feedback.
A good example is this actual video (a Sajam staple already) that references a sum of opinions of both true influencers and unknown people, giving a good idea of what's the community is thinking and talking about in a general way. It becomes a good reference point for researchers.
NRS has really turned me off frequent patching. I can understand people being upset SF6 isn't getting a patch for ages, but they at least balanced the game so well to begin with that a patch really isn't necessary.
You can lead a player to Twitter but you can’t make them think
SF6 is super fun to watch at a high level
Remember when fuudo was one of the best street fighter players in sf4 and 5 putting both his respective characters for each game, fei long and r. mika, on the map competitively?
I dont, this motherfuckers CARRIED BY DEE JAY!!!!
As someone who grinds this videogame pretty regularly I really feel like complaining about any specific character's strength and focusing on what feels "unfair" just poisons your enjoyment of the game. I feel like the most selfish thing you can do for yourself is to not focus on reasons another character is better instead of how you can adapt. But I also see the value in actually hypothetically affecting some change with a game patch, which can make the game feel more enjoyable.
From what I've seen from different kinds of competitive scenes, it's that balanced risk/reward is antithetical to the competitive mindset of seeking low risk/high reward play. So any naive developer who wants to create a "fair and balanced" game runs the risk of creating low risk/low reward gameplay in a doomed attempt to satiate the competitive players, when high risk/high reward gameplay is what is actually _fun_ to play. That's what killed the Halo 3 multi-player, that's what killed multiple fighting games scenes, it's just a constant theme. Good designers make high reward gameplay riskier, so for example if a character's moveset is "OP" you design a character designed to be a counterpick to them, or a mechanic that allows for a mindless approach to be countered.
The way to balance the fireball isn't by making them weaker, it's by making jump in attacks. You balance jump in attacks by making anti-airs. You balance anti-airs by making them easily punishable if they whiff. None of this means actually making characters weaker or moves have less range.
Theoretically, I guess people may voice their opinions to get things changed just like they wish they could change the government. The problem is that there is no voting process and no guarantee that anyone outside of the top is being heard. Everyone is working with an immature perspective. Some may be using it for personal gain, but others may think that a popular opinion is their vote to improving the game.
@fluidthought42
While I get the overall idea of buffs being better than nerfs, if you only buff you can eventually end up in a situation where the next buff you have to make is to increase the default amount of rounds you need to win a set because your in a highly volatile game and it's super easy to snowball.
@@simplyeyeronic1443
As in a per match snowballing or a per interaction snowballing? Because I'm not sure a per match snowballing is possible in SF6 without abundant one touches, and per interaction the balancing factor would be difficulty of maintaining the combo and being adequately punishable with correct counterplay. But that's just a general problem with bad balancing, and one that SF6 nicely mitigates with mechanics like its parries.
I do find it interesting how Capcom experimented with resource management though. We have around 5 characters that have stock based moves but the approach with Jamie is different from the approach with Manon which is different than Blanka. Hope this experimentation helps them find their balance.
I personally want JP to get buffed every patch. I don't play him but I'm a fan of the pain he causes
That Guilty Gear style patch
Nago got a buff when he was the best character in Strive lmao
I like Strive, but Arcsys "balance" is mystifying. It's disheartening to leave the game for over a year, come back and find that characters like Nago, HC and Ram are still dominant and my boy Faust is still trash.
@@ironclad6471 the difference between tiers in Strive is pretty small; especially on current patch you can be an absolute menace with Faust if you learn to control neutral with him and some of his tech, though I think he was actually more menacing a few patches ago
@@Vulgar_Worlockthis only applies to anything that's below top tier, the top tiers are very oppressive but still beatable thankfully.
It's kinda funny, I've been part of the "Nerf Johnny Squad" but only in the sense that I assumed the discourse is in good faith. I genuinely think Johnny could use 1-2 frames of block advantage removed from his normals... but that's it. And honestly, if NRS never touches Johnny it'd be fine... he's really strong but not busted (like Sindel/Jax apparently lmao).
But I see other people's suggestions, and they sound absolutely wild. And looking at it from the perspective of "I don't wanna learn nerf him" makes a lot of sense now ahahaha...
If that's where we're at, fuck it leave Johnny alone then. I'd rather he be untouched than nerfed into the ground.
My exact perspective.
People don't want to learn how to fight against Cage, so they'd rather cry for nerfs.
Fuck that, leave him be - buff the lower tiers only.
"you never even want to settle with a character and sit down and grind to get good at them you just play whoever is good this patch" was the mindset that made me quit overwatch, getting flamed for playing anything other than the top two tanks that month felt like shit
I attribute some of this to the way we write headlines about fighting games. "Zangief wins CPT qualifier" is a much snappier headline than "Veteran grappler player Snake Eyez wins CPT Qualifier with Zangief". When news comes out about a low-tier having an impressive showing, it's never about the player. When Mena won with Blanka, the headlines were about Blanka. It's only natural. Snake has been playing Zangief since before a lot of us were playing fighting games. He's one of the most experienced grappler players in the world. But people on twitter see "Zangief wins tournament" and that's all that really registers to them. It becomes "x character is broken" instead of "if you put in the work, even x character has tools that are really strong."
The process behind this type of discourse is that each Twitter user will save twenty different drafts, each one complaining about a different cast members. Once grand finals of a large tournament rolls around, they will hone in on the two tweets corresponding to the characters being played on the screen. This sets up for a frame perfect OS when the last K.O. flashes on the screen to post the correct Tweet in regards to which character wins.
I think there are so many ken players that people are figuring out how to counterplay against him. Pretty simple. The balancing is actually pretty decent in this game.
It's down right amazing, Ehonda and OD animsia not with standing
It's not balanced. No character should have that much attention. The fact that you have to lab just to find a solution is pretty telling IMO.
@@Arctanis-vt3hlBro labbing to get an answer is a core part of any videogame i get your frustration but that's a terrible argument
@@Arctanis-vt3hlwhat lol
Some characters need some love and others need some nerf still, risk X reward is very skewed sometimes
18:19 Brother, SAME. Even though I think costume 3 will be very overpriced, def want it more than a balance patch rn
Coming from games that patch way too often and inevitably create a never ending cascade of balance issues, I love the way Capcom is handling SF6 balance. Get it pretty right first time, then wait. The way we've seen some characters on the up lately reminds me of StarCraft Brood War, when Bisu pioneered strats that flipped Zerg vs Protoss from being Zerg favoured to Protoss favoured. They called him the Revolutionist.
Slow, careful balance changes are 100% better for a game and for players. If Chess came out today week 2 people call for Castling to be nerfed and say Knights are too awkard to use.
Broodwar is a prime example of how an unchanged game can still have drastic shifts in the meta when players figure out shit. Of course, RTS games are more complex than fighting games but the same can hold true in fighters as well.
@@no_nameyouknow yeah, every time someone claims a one year old game is solved, im just like. "do you really think your game is so many orders of magnitude simpler than old games that have gone a decade without a patch?".
(honestly my hot take is that games as a general rule just, shouldnt have balance patches)
It's much harder to accurately tell what a player is doing well than to complain about the things that seem unfair. I'd be interested to see more breakdowns from you on pro play discussing what different pros bring to the match irrespective of the character picked.
As a zangief player, i assure you, i simply LOVE the once a year cycle.
CAUSE I CAN ACTUALLY LEARN AND GET BETTER AT THE GAME, MATCHUPS, AND MY CHARACTER, I LOVE THE GRIND OF IMPROVEMENT AND ADAPTATION, GROWTH IS THE APPEAL OF THESE GAMES FOR ME!
I agree, even though I'm only Silver 5 star with Gief lol
@@marlinmurrell620 YOU WILL GET THERE MY FRIEND, THROUGH HARD WORK AND THE POWER OF MUSCLE!
The only thing these wins show is that SF6 is pretty well balanced and these pros are incredibly sick.
nerfing Rain like that is crazy. Sonic was literally the only one playing him lmao
I like the idea of a patch every 6 months. I'm not sure I'd be happy with more frequent than that. But seriously.... I want more costumes for the main cast. We should get one every new character added. Every. Single. One.
I'm drowning in Battle hub trash. Gimme costumes NOW
The topics change, but complaints about any characters that exist in a fighting game can all coexist. Complaining about one does not necessarily invalidate or ignore the complaints about the others.
That is why I wish people in fighting games were more aware and better at teaching. Most people will not even try to answer reasonable basic questions when they are obviously more knowledgeable. Peers should understand that people have different struggles and especially at lower levels that can make characters that are supposed to be weak feel like the best in the game. To me, it feels like Jamie and Ryu are the toughest to fight, but I have gotten a bit better against Ryu. Zangief is probably there too because it feels like the only reason I win is because my opponent was playing very badly.
Sf 6 seems like it’s doing okay to pretty good. But stale meta’s are a real thing. As long as the top 10’s of tournaments aren’t 3/4 one character it seems viable
I don't think the game has a stale meta, and if it did, I'd rather have stale meta built by the players rather then an artificial one build by the devs
I say the current meta is pretty good despite some characters has better result than the others. Here are the characters than won this year (offline & online) CPT: 3 Ken, 2 Luke, 2 Dee Jay, 1 Zangief, 1 Rashid, 1 Chun Li, 1 JP, and 1 Guile. And here are the characters that got 2nd place at (offline & online) CPT: 3 Luke, 2 JP, 2 Ken, 1 Dhalsim, 1 Manon, 1 Ryu, 1 Blanka, and 1 Guile. We still have 9 premier online CPT and 1 offline LCQ before Capcom Cup X.
Is this referring to Strive's meta? Because I know a lot of people aren't happy that the top tiers have stayed mostly the same throughout the game's life cycle
Love watching this right after Chris Wong beats everyone up again lol. That guy is so ridiculously good.
Honey wake up, it's been 2 years since sajam talked about patches in fighting games, time to put some sense into the fgc head again.
I'm guessing the next video will be about "fighting games aren't inherently more difficult, have you looked at a moba?"
Agreed on costume 3. I’d grind this game out for hours everyday if Zangief had a chicken costume
Patching to appease the community is a fool's quest and I really wish more devs learned to just sit with a balance patch for a few months rather than snap respond. Competitive games like League and Overwatch always have to learn this and it's frustrating because it's such an unforced error!
The example I always give is Melee. The game has been out since 2001, and the only "patch" it got was the PAL version which we dont even use anymore.
Donkey Kong for that whole time has been seen as a low to mid tier and not viable as a solo main.
And within the past year, a documentary has been made on the new surge of DK players that have been putting in work, and Junebug recently got 13th at one of the biggest tournaments of the year using solo DK. (DK's greatest tournament run ever)
Especially in a game with strong universal mechanics like SF6, I think its a very good idea to let the meta develop before making drastic changes.
You know what? Capcom should just never release a balance patch until Twitter unleashes a riot against every single member of the cast.
Capcom is basically saying "You're gonna eat tour vegetables (learn your matchups) and you're gonna like it!"
I’m always perplexed by the phenomenon, since it’s always exactly the same in every single game. Although it is worse in some games, and I think SF6 is balanced pretty well compared to most.
Also last thing. I think capcom is making the right decision to not parch the game for a while so they can gather as much data as possible before making any decisions. I think when the patch does come out its gonna be a good one and even if there are nerfs it shouldn't make the nerfed characters unplayable.
Not at all - just try to put everyone on the same "tier". No character should be S and A tier, while others are C and D. Just balance the game. Harder to do than say, but it would be great if this was the goal.
@@Arctanis-vt3hldang, we found the smartest guy in the comments 🥴
@@Arctanis-vt3hl Right, because that isn't the entire point of balancing a fighter to begin with (/s). I seriously doubt devs start with a plan like "okay, this character will be top-tier, and this one is on the bottom." Other than Dan, the point is to make everything as balanced as possible; tier lists are an unavoidable thing because perfect balance is impossible when not all characters are identical.
@@Arctanis-vt3hlIt’s not just hard, it’s impossible. Tiers will always exist, no matter how balanced a game is. That’s just the nature of asymmetrical competitive game design. The real goal is to make a fun game, then try to make that gap as small as possible with which SF6 does extremely well.
so early to this video that I'm not patched yet.
Twitter/X has the most number of beaches and I'm living in a tropical country
"everybody is crybaby on twitter ab-" full stop perfect sentence
As far as patching goes, I think twice a year is the sweet spot personally. Once a year feels like too little and could stick the game in a bad spot for too long, while even at 3 times per year I start to feel like it may be too much (enough so that I'd prefer once a year to it if they won't do twice).
This aside from emergency patches to fix legitimately broken things, like launch Rashid's level 2, of course. Those you always do as needed.
one must imagine sajam happy
The focus on the character is actively infuriating. People say “dude Ken won the tournament”. Ken didn’t fucking win the tournament, the person playing Ken won the tournament. People are ignoring the player behind the character so much that, if you didn’t know about the tournament, you wouldn’t know that Fuudo just won a tournament. All you’d know is that Deejay “won” a tournament. It feels disrespectful to the time and work the players put in to win these tournaments by reducing their skill and win to their character only. Player skill is so important in fighting games but if you just looked at twitter you’d think character was the most importing thing.
I love the current patch schedule of sf6. Im really new to fighting games, and having a year to learn my character has really helped me learn. If i had to relearn mechanics every few weeks i think my progress would bot be as fast.
I feel like theres a element of that in all levels as well. Really strong players building actual mastery over their characters, being able to really dig into the minutiae of their characters and play them better than would be possible if you hve to rebuild muscle memory more frequently. I think we see more character diversity than if there were frequent adjustments. Like Sajam spoke about in his MKX example.
Best part of having patches like sf6 is doing is instead of every patch being like “oh we made this characters stand lp 1 frame slower , thats it” instead we will probably be getting big changes which is really exciting almost like it’s own event
I kind of like less frequent patches. I think it makes me a better player. I’m a Kimberly main, I think we can all agree she’s solidly mid tier. Not very strong, but not the worst either. To me learning her now is only going to make me better if she ever gets a buff and help me cope if she gets nerfed.
Just wait until Kim wins a big tournament in impressive fashion. She is gonna be so broken then. /s
Fr. You actually get to focus on the intricacies and what makes the game shine. Instead of wondering what frame/property a move is and if it’s still the same from last patch.
I like the long times between patches. As you say, I like that it means the community works on strategies. I remember with UMVC3, Wesker was seen as a problem on release, but with time and practice, he dropped hard. A reactionary patch wasn’t required.
Your post makes it seem like Wesker went from the best character in the game to a very bad one.
It was never that Wesker was magically figured out.
He was still an incredibly good character that was one of the best anchors in the game.
It's that cheaper characters like Virgil were fleshed out.
It wasn't an issue of answers to Wesker.
It was an issue of more overwhelming overpowering characters.
Tourneys still had teams full of Weskers and none full of Hsien Kos.
Using Marvel in this discussion is a poor example.
Fair enough. I just remembered him being used a lot less in tornaments later on.
Maybe I remembered wrong :).
I think we shouldn’t be looking at gameplay of the best players in the world to realize some characters require less effort at normal levels.
This is very much a western culture thing, it's really the egos. I've explained to different people many times that Japan's tier lists are heavily influenced by the players in their pool, and the west treats it the complete opposite way.
The grass (or drive rush) is always greener on the other side
Dude people are soooo tribal when it comes to this shit it’s insane
Deejay and juri are my favorite characters. The only reason I don't play deejay more is because I can't charge like a normal person lol. I'll kill my down back if I play charge characters too long
Sajam just described the entire league of legends community: complain about the "broken character" of the patch, not do anything to learn how to play against it, wait for the next patch to "solve" the problem for them. Repeat when next patch drops.
This reminds me of how Brandon (aka Home Made Waffles) will describe the flow of the Melee character meta as different characters' stocks going up or down. In 2019 Captain Falcon's stock was on the rise, with three in the top ten, and Wizzy even winning a major with Falcon for the first time in more than ten years. Nowadays, Sheik's stock is on the rise, with Jmook RTCing everyone, and Leffen developing a secondary Shiek for the Marth matchup, and a number of Shiek rising stars. The meta game moves ever onwards, people find and develop new tech, new strats, etc all the time. There's also been a Donkey Kong renaissance moving him up to mid-tier, with some of them even flirting with getting top 8 at majors, unthinkable a few years ago. Not to mention Amsa and Axe carrying Yoshi and Pikachu to the point that they've broken into high tier. Still hasn't been patched since 2002, and we don't even play on that patch (PAL) due to to the America-centric nature of Melee, so effectively no patch since 2001. That patch can drink even in America.
EDIT: That's not to say there aren't changes that I think Melee would benefit from. As a community we like the Frozen Stadium, and I 100% support that. I'd also like Whispy to stop, the Fly Guys removed, get rid of the RNG on Fountain, Battlefield's ledges fixed, etc... you know: QOL changes.
This is very interesting. I came from FPS games, mainly overwatch, and over there we have constant issue of people not trying to think and relying on developers to nerf strongest characters or buff 'weak' character just because people think they're too strong/weak. and then people learn how to play that "weak" character and with new buffs it actually insanely powerful, while in what seemed like a weak state, was actually balanced and fair.
So i'm surprised and glad that Fighting games not patched often and people have time to figure out solutions by themselves. i think it's a lot better. unless character has exploits devs missed.
“Everybody is a crybaby on Twitter…”
You can stop it right there, no more is necessary.
Ah, it must be the right time of year for this Sajam video again.
Capcom needs to buff Jamie and give him a laser canon
How big? Arm mounted? Over the shoulder bazooka style? Or like small country sized sattelite laser
Ken players have been acting up, but the real downplaying criminals are Juri players. The literal second that JP and Ken became cemented top 2 they skipped off into the sunset with their teleport drive rush, +2 on block forward-advancing medium punch, and forward throw that instantly corners you. Not even top 10 they try to tell me
Nah, Juri main here, and she's definitely around 6th-8th, only probably beaten out by Ken, JP, Luke, Dee Jay and Cammy. A couple others are debatable, and I can understand people arguing her place compared to Dee Jay and Cammy among others.
Crazy how people like big bird will rate a character like Rashid at A+ and then immediately tweet "damn did we underestimate rashid" as soon as someone wins a tournament with that character 😂😂 balance is good if players will constantly try to reconsider character tier lists on a weekly basis almost 😂
I wonder which top tier we are going to hate next. I heard it's Luke. Can't wait.
The frequent patching of games like League is a blessing and a curse. If a character is super busted and unfun to play against, it’s very likely that you only gotta wait 2 weeks for that to change. On the other hand, if a character that you like suddenly becomes busted then you’re suddenly getting hated out if the game by both the community and the in-game systems. It really sucks sometimes
I mean you didn't have to go and say something so true
The biggest complaint seems to be that there arent enough pervert costumes to play dress up which, as a community, is such a hilarious self report
Sajam is the anti scrub mentality the FGC (and all esports) needs
Every game with balancing faces this issue, not just fighting gams. Anything that beats people or wins tourneys or even just does well is considered too good and people want it nerfed to the floor and beyond. What they fail to realize is that once that character gets nerfed, the good players move on to someone else and then whoever they play is suddenly the problem. Reactive nerfing inherently cannot work because rather than learning how to be better at solving the problem, you just push it aside and keep demanding it be done for you until it does but then a new issue comes up and its the same cycle all over again.
Just coming off of League of Legends worlds, it's always interesting to see which characters are considered the best at the start of the tournament vs what counterplay gets developed mid tournament. It's something you don't normally get to see with the 2 week patch cycle league has, but see all the time in fighting games due to them generally patching less.
I don't have issues with characters in SF6 mostly i just think the systems are too strong and favor already strong characters to make them even stronger.
Wouldn't Sajam's criticims about frequent patches not apply if the strategy was to buff weaker characters and leave the strong ones as they are? Zangief suddenly becoming twice as powerful on paper doesn't drastically change how he is playing his chosen characters. It means adjusting his match-up knowledge against Zangief specifically, but it doesn't force him to change who his current main character is, and his general strategy when playing should also remain the same.
I understand that Classic Zangief isn't popular, but I can't look at Modern Gief and wish a buff for them. Perhaps Capcom can create different balances for different control schemes?
@@fluidthought42modern gief isnt that great
"Power creep"
@@EXFrostI don't play but one button grapplers sound terrifying And a pain
@@ironshinobi9384 its not
In terms of the patch I think you hit the nail on the head, the current version of SF6 is one of the best first drafts for a fighting game I've seen. That's why I genuinely think there should be little to no nerfs in the balance patch next year. Like I hate fighting say Ken and Cammy but do they need nerfs? Nah, everyone below them and the other top tiers just need a few buffs. They really just have to bring everyone up to the level of being a "Street Fighter 6 Character" like the top 7 or 8 characters in the roster.
Funniest thing about this video is Sajam’s hair refusing to stay out of his face.
Coming here after watching the "Luke is better than Ken" video angrybird put out.
Even in non-competitive games like Diablo 4 or Path of Exile, this “lobbying and complaining” problem is there as well.
It’s just toxic and ruins the entire community, be it on Twitter or Reddit or Forums.
When approached, people will bring up they are only offering “constructive criticism “ or their rights as a “paying customer”.
Patch/balance begging / unsolicited feedback is a plague in the fan communities and it is made even worse when the developers actually listens and makes patches.
Like you said, people will just turn their attention to begging/bullying the devs rather than enjoying the game.
Even players who have been just playing without complaining are now very worried that the devs suddenly knee jerk patches and ruins their hard work.
I am up for frequent bug fixes, but definitely not balance patches. The latter will just cause a downward spiral of overloaded devs and angry fans.
I kinda like how capcom is just letting people fully discover the game and how all the characters play before they make any huge balance changes. I think they said they wouldn’t until after all the season 1 characters are released so after akuma who is the last early next year. Because it’s not always good to overreact to community feedback and rush to make changes right away. I mean look how much the community’s opinions have changed about certain characters over the past couple of months. I understand a lot of pros are kinda getting restless and want them to shake things up and change some stuff but again I don’t think it’s a good idea to overreact to everyone’s feedback. Also can we acknowledge how Sajam is the most level headed dude in the FGC next to max
ok all this aside, that fuudo clip is sick as hell. what an absolute god
We had a new character in Rashid a week or 2 before EVO and people went crazy how Rashid would run rampant. What happened? There was 1 Rashid in top 64 (Momochi in 13th) and nobody really cared.
Witnessing online discourse about any video game makes me feel like an NPC in a Persona game - I'm just left wondering what's real or not.
If they buffed low tiers mildly and kept most everything else in place I’d be happy
This kind of discourse is so much stronger and commonplace in the NRS community, people over there just refuse to accept the concept that player strength matters more than their character. I've tried to get into MK1 because the game is fun but I just feel so alienated by insanely toxic environment surrounding it.
SF FGC definitely has its moments and it's important to call them out but also it could be so much worse.
I been rocking percieved low tiers for ages. It’s a rewarding challenge to overcome high tier characters. Let me have that joy.
rain getting nerfed makes me so bummed they didn't even let the characters develop
9:10 I remember this happening when they first buffed drone on Gold Lewis and everybody was losing their shit, and then they were saying stuff like “it’s crazy that drone can do xyz! Why did they buff him like this??” When in reality drone always did that and Sajam said that they were just telling the world that they had no idea how to fight Gold Lewis lmao
When you learn the frame data of an OP smash attack in Melee, you have that knowledge forever. The game will never be patched. No lessons go to waste, and there's less reason to complain about balance.
Chess hasn't been patched in a long time. This is why I wish someone would be a fighting game with no patches.
I still play Ken (stuck in D4) and I love the character. Not just him but the roster is legit fun all together, anyone can play these characters that they’re complaining about.
Sf6 convinced me that the more balanced your game is, the more infantile, sad, unhinged the """discourse""" over balance is
The community just keeps vindicating the dev's decision to patch the game once a year
smash ultimate has had literal bottom-eight characters (in a cast of 82) in the top-eight at major tournaments, and people are still crying for balance patches. i thought it was just smash players but apparently not.
giving credit to good players won't give me an out when a low-tier main does good against me with someone I should have a good matchup against, when I haven't studied said matchup or even attempted to exploit the weaknesses that make said character weak.
I think in general this is just something online culture propagates? Kinda an obvious statement, but while watching this video I was kinda just reminded of how my scene functions.
Every single time someone complains about a character, everybody from my region that happens to hear it is like "yea yea yea the character is crazy, one of the reasons I think Y is so good with them is because he's put so many hours on this game or that game or this thing or that thing."
It's like acceptance of the salt as it is, and then immediately gassing up the person who won.
So even the people who are getting rocked have to take a beat and like, accept that.
I think it's a way healthier community to be in simply because so few of them are glued on twitter like that. Like was I complaining about Rashid when my buddy was beating the hell out of me last week? Yes. Did I also immediately say "yea X is so so so good at placing his crMK I feel like the button is so strong when I'm playing against X's Rashid"? Yes. I feel like the takeaway is maybe don't be so mean to ur friends when ur losing.