"Many are my names in many countries. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves, Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not."
Gandalf saying I go not could mean or be interpreted as he doesn't go there now but doesn't exclude the possibility he ventured before. He doesn't he never went there. And it's clear that he's a stranger with no name in the East as all other locations he was known by one of his many names. Remember the Two Towers was published in 1954 before the Tolkien's letters and Christopher editorial expanding the legendarium
In a recent interview the RoP showrunners referred to this earlier visit of Olorin - and how he had not been instructed to “not match power with power” yet.
@@ackerman_chrisif amazon made them yeah. Imaginr if peter jackson made them all whith the same energy and was true to the material to the very end. Toljien fans would be happy for eternity, literaly.
Since we're on the subject of proto-Istari, I'd love a full video on Melian the Maia one day. Ik she gets name-dropped a lot in the Doriath videos but she deserves her own bc she's awesome (both her and Sauron's magic for example leaked into the woods in Doriath's northern outskirts, causing them to become haunted. Plus she's Galadriel's teacher. Yeah she's really scary if she wants to lol)
Third this. She is one awesome being, and of great importance for Middle Earth even though she left after the first age, in many ways. One of which in being the ancestor of Aragorn (and Arwen).
In a time where different fandoms content creators are at war with one another, I am so happy that in my favorite universe we have someone like you. Hannon Le Melon!
It's not very often I learn something new about Middle-earth Lore as I have been studying the chronological history for 20 YEARS but wow. Your videos know how to grab all the detail and compile in a way that's easy to understand. Thank you for the new fresh perspective, and revived interest, in the VY. #FreeMorgoth
I was reading Unfinished Tales the past week and it came to my mind that this quote/passage : "Olórin (who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir) brought it with him out of the West. And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great..... And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’ ....And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth....' " Maybe i am totally confused as usual with my lore knowledge, but is that a slight indication about Olorin coming at the Second Age?It is interesting that the passage has Galadriel dwelling in the Greenwood. That does suggest that this might be in the Second Age, before she settled in Lórinand. Presumably this would be Olórin on a lesser mission, long before he was sent back to Middle-earth as one of the Istari. In the books there are no direct references to the presence of Gandalf during the Second Age, but this example help us understand that perhaps, for Mr. Tolkien, this character could have traveled to Middle-earth in that period too, or at least that it was a concrete possibility. We are talking about a dialogue that took place before Galadriel’s reception of Nenya, and which therefore must be placed in the Second Age. Many of Mr.Tolkien's books leave great room for interpretation and alternative solutions, and much more of his material is still unexplored by the public.
I think that Tolkien likes to hint that the Istari were around under some form and aware of what had happened, but at some point he decided that they would only "materialize" for the Third Age. Personally I don't really like the idea that the Istari would have been sent for different missions. They had one mission, and it was to help in the fight against Sauron. I think that Tolkien explored various narrative paths for the Istari, but at some point he clearly decided that they wouldn't have been really active before that. And it makes sense too. The Maiar are spirits, so the Istari weren't born for the Third Age, but they still existed. They possessed an understanding of the world that they have partially forgotten when they took physical form.
@@Ezullof I always find it interesting to speculate about how much the Istari remember from their time before a human body. Tolkien hints that they have vague memories (kind of like memories we have of when we were 3/4) of Valinor
That the mind of one man could render all of this never ceases to amaze me. Every layer you peel back reveals a layer beneath. There is little doubt that without proper context, anyone who found these histories in the far future would believe this to be our historical and mythological belief system today.
OMG! MATT! Thank you sooooo much! When I was watching Rings Of Power, I was trying to recall where I had read about The Guardians, with Melian as their leader, and I searched and searched (I am notoriously poor at finding good search words!), but could not locate the actual, primary sources-your timing is exquisite, because I was going out of my mind there! Hope you will talk about this in the Rings And Realms wrap up???
Second age Gandalf (it is quite possible). I quote: 1960 narrative shows a conversation between Galadriel and Gandalf in the Second Age. The Lord of the Rings - Appendix B - "The Tale of Years" - "The Second Age“ , “The Elessar",(1959-1960) a rough four page manuscript about the history of the elfstone that Galadriel gives to Aragorn. In this text we can see Gandalf (Olórin) interacting with Galadriel who lives in Greenwood. The reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood the Great is to the second age section of Appendix B in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings. This conception was later edited out with the 1965 second edition of The Lord of the Rings, but it establishes the context for "The Elessar", showing that this conversation with Gandalf was in the Second Age. And The Peoples of Middle-earth - Part 2, Chapter XIII, "Last Writings", 1972 essay mentions that it's very likely Gandalf had already been visiting Middle-earth. In the final year of Tolkien's life, in an essay discussing Glorfindel's reincarnation, Tolkien describes his relation to Gandalf, and mentions what Gandalf was doing in the Second Age. “That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing has yet been said of this.”
Olorin in the 2nd Age is NOT Gandalf. Tolkien is using Gandalf because that is who people know by name. Gandalf (Olorin embodied) was only in the 3rd Age.
If only Saruman remembered of his old days as well and his first mission (if those Maiar sent to the first Eldar are indeed the wizards), he would not have chosen to yield to Sauron. So, yes, it seems that they don't have the memories of their past when in Middle Earth. Interesting take on the sixth being Melian. ps : Cirdan is like a living library. Spanned all three ages of Middle Earth and the thought of remembering Gandalf without Gandalf remembering his struck me with awe as I watched your video. Another magical journey this video gave me. Thank you so much for your efforts. I would love to see you make a video on Forodwaith and the Lossoth, as well as on Almaren and the Great Lake.
I am loving these weekly videos delving deeper into various parts of Middle Earth’s histories, canon, etc. 🙌🏽 It is fitting to delve into Gandalf’s early history after RoP teasing the Stranger’s identity for two seasons before finally revealing what we already knew.
For me, the most mysterious moment in Gandalf's life is that very short time between being killed by the balrog and being resurrected as the White. Did he appear in Valinor and speak with the Valar? Did he debrief them and was briefed himself? Was he given a choice between staying and returning to Middle-earth? As the White, did he have any memories of what he saw and heard in the West?
@@Alcogod I agree that it probably was a blur (or thoughts that his humanized self couldn't process), but of course he remembered the main points: that he was now appointed as the White, and the core goal of his mission. It makes me think about the Blue wizards. Did they completely forget their mission? Or perhaps they retained too many memories of their grand Maiar selves, becoming overconfident in their powers, ripe for corruption by evil?
Gandalf did not go to Valinor. It was Ilúvatar who intervened and was responsible for deciding to restore much, if not all, of Gandalf's innate power to him and send him back to Middle-Earth as Gandalf the White.
@@Alcogod Tolkien changed his mind later and had the Blue Wizards go to Middle-Earth in the 2nd Age, where they had a lot of success in disrupting Sauron's plans for the Men of those lands, thus weakening Sauron's overall power although they didn't come close to stopping him.
A really interesting video, and I really like your theory about Círdan recognising Gandalf! I don't think that the Istari completely forgot their past (after all, Saruman had to have access to some of his prior knowledge learned from Aule to delve deep into the "ring technology"). It's probably more like that they only remembered faint impressions, like we remember childhood memories. This might have been not even a deliberate move made by the Valar, but perhaps it was a natural limitation of their mortal bodies - the memories of a timeless, essentially bodyless being probably can't fully manifest in such a limited vessel. Gandalf mentions at one point that he wishes to use a Palantír to see Eressea, Tirion and Valinor again - a sign of his longing for the Undying Lands (and perhaps his full true self). And perhaps this shows us how his memory works - he can remember what it was, but not how it was. I really hope that he was able to become himself once again after arriving in Aman. But his "life" as Gandalf/Mithrandir certainly also shaped him to some extent.
I see what you did here. Wonderful interpretation of Tolkien and a generous veil for Amazon to cower behind. Well, it worked. Great food for thought regarding Olorin's history.
In the context of Middle-earth, the name "Gandalf" comes from the Northmen of Rhovanion, a group of people who spoke languages related to the ancestors of the Rohirrim. Gandalf is a name derived from Old Norse in our world, but Tolkien often used such names for characters associated with the culture of the Northmen and Rohirrim, whose language resembles Old English and Old Norse in style. Within Middle-earth's lore, Gandalf's true name among the Maiar (the powerful spirits sent to Middle-earth) is Olórin, a name known in Valinor, where he originally came from. However, when he took on the guise of a wizard and traveled among Men and Elves, different peoples gave him different names. The Elves of Middle-earth call him Mithrandir, meaning "Grey Pilgrim" in Sindarin. The Dwarves called him Tharkûn. The Northmen (Rohirrim and their ancestors) knew him as Gandalf, a name that Tolkien adapted from Old Norse mythology. So, while Gandalf is a name from Norse mythology in our world, within Middle-earth it is attributed to the Northmen, who likely viewed him as a mysterious, powerful figure-much like a wandering sage or wizard.
Mairon, spying on the Valar for Melkor in Almaren and Valinor before being given the name Sauron, was said to have been the first one to discover the Elves in The Nature of Middle-earth. This means he was not only the first of the Ainur to lay eyes on the Children of Eru, but was also likely the one who spread Melkor's whispers among them before the arrival of Oromë. He was manipulating the Elves, like he would again much later in Eriador, even long before they had first made the Great Journey to Aman.
All of the unknowns you just mentioned are why I’m totally fine with the stranger being Gandalf. There is a ton of lore yes, but there are probably even more gaps and unknowns that they can weave into the lore. Nothing is being taken away from Tolkien or his great work by expanding on it. Just like all the fan fiction extended universe Star Wars books don’t take away from what Lucas did
Great video as usual! I was wondering if you could do a video about the seen and the unseen world in Tolkien’s mythology since is a topic very open for debate and little is know about it. Thank you so much!
I'm wondering how they'll work Gandalf into the story in season 3 of RoP. So far his story is completely disconnected. The connection with Cirdan could be interesting
I wasn't aware of his first mission, I'm reading through Nature of Middle Earth atm, though it's a harder read cause of all the math and such 😅 but very interesting nonetheless!
I've read there is some unfinished tales or perhaps letters (yet to cross reference) that Tolkein toyed with the idea of sending Gandalf earlier. Ultimately ROP needs to be adaptable for both book and casual fans. It's because of ROP I've now watched so many of your videos, read some of the similarian, bought the Christopher Tolkien complications of the history of middle earth and have fully re fell in love with Middle Earth all over again. The beauty of it all is there are so many appendices and additions.
Interesting to see that Cuivíenen was in the general area where Sauron would build Baradur (but perhaps further east), and that the lake where the elves awoke was turned into Mordor. Never knew that. Looks to me like someone was a bit jealous.
What you said about the 5 Wizards having only few and dim memories of their first mission to Middle Earth in the Elder Days is interesting. It makes sense for the Valar to do that to them - since the Wizards in the 3rd Age might be greatly frustrated if they clearly remembered the greater power given to them long ago in the Elder Days. Even as it was, Saruman clearly grew frustrated about having much less power than Sauron - and that was why he coveted the One Ring. That was enough to corrupt him and turn him to evil.
Rings of Power story be like, Dark Wizard: You- found your name? I still need to find mine. Stranger: I really wish I could help. Sorry, man. Dark Wizard: Wait, what did you say?
I love the idea that Melian could have been sent as a Wizard if Thingol hadn't fallen in love with her. How differently would the 1st and 3rd age have played out. You should do a video on that.
What a wonderful story imagine if someone made a dhow about this stuff it would br awesome. Guess your the only one telling the tale really enjoyed it.
Edit: I wrote this comment before I got to the end of the video haha Unless i'm mistaken it's speculated that Cirdan was amongst the first awoken elves in middle earth iirc? I wonder if that's why he trusted Gandalf and gave him narya all those thousands of years later when the Istari returned to middle earth. Did Cirdan remember Gandalf, or at least perceive him as one of the original guides sent by the Valar when the elves awoke?
In Lord Of The Rings Online there is a story line speaking of Gandalf and Glorfindel's being friends and close before the ring was cut from from Saurons hand
This brings up another very interesting question: as immortal beings, do the elves (and the Istari) remember things in a way that Men can't quite grasp? Or do they forget, really? We do have a hint that maybe memory is slippery for Gandalf in the mortal sense, when we're in Moria and he says "I have no memory of this place." That could mean he forgot - or it could mean that he never came by those specific halls when he visited Khazadum. But I submit that most people tend to file away memories that don't need to be referenced often. We already know that folks have short term memory, and a kind of "working memory" for keeping track of this week/last month (relatively recent events and information). It makes perfect sense that elves too would have such distinctions in their minds. But how fascinating might it be if, for the elves, that distinction is MUCH more intentional than it is for Men? What if Gandalf does recall that very first mission - but rarely accesses that memory, leaving it "on the shelf" in his general day-to-day living? Very little of that information would be of help for him in his mission during the Third Age, after all. With Glorfindel - well, perhaps he does recall those days in Valinor, but again what use in making a stir about it? The elves are masters of subtlety and wise in the ways of speaking without voices: it's entirely plausible that the two met in Middle-Earth and merely nodded to each other, and that was enough to reaffirm the old friendship. Or maybe they just kept it very private, took a moment to greet each other warmly, and never mentioned it afterwards. Recall how reserved MOST of the peoples of Middle-Earth are (which I'm given to understand is also common to the British, culturally, at least in Tolkein's generation). Totally makes sense that even with strong memories of his friend, Gandalf wouldn't have mentioned it overtly. As for Cirdan - absolutely he recognized the spirit of the being who had helped his people. But Cirdan is exceedingly good about keeping his mouth shut. He really seems to be that sort of person who sees MUCH more than he lets on, and holds secrets upon secrets, not in the way a dragon hoards gold but rather in the way that a library holds books. Should someone actually need that knowledge, he might divulge it, but you'd have to ask - you'd better have a VERY GOOD REASON for asking, too. Though I don't think Cirdan would ever shout at someone for such questions. He's seen so much, he's witnessed ages come and go, and I think of all the elves he's the one most in control of pretty much every situation that comes his way. Maybe some of that is also that he rarely leaves his city, but I think a lot of it is simply a quiet competence and steadfast nature that allows him to just... handle whatever needs to be handled. Always felt like Cirdan and Glorfindel were the two characters I'd feel safest with in Middle Earth. I mean, I'd be comfortable around any of the hobbits, but I'd feel like the one that needs to do more of the protecting, you know? Whereas every time I read about that last ship to Valinor I cry a little because I'd sure like to think there's a haven *I* could run to at the end of everything.
Hey, love ur vids man. I have a video suggestion which I think could be really interesting. What if the other races of middle earth had rings of power. Eg orcs, dragons and ents. Thanks!
Ok, so what if the mission he has in RoP will result in his demise and return to the west. He will later return in a new form in the 3rd age as we all know and not really remember his mission in the 2nd age. 😅
I think it’d be super epic for Círdan to have remembered/ recognized Gandalf from his previous mission to Middle Earth. A bit like the scene in the Two Towers where the three hunters recognize Gandalf but he’s yet different. While Gandalf half remembers at the moment, expressing his return in his new mission. I wonder if Sauron had yet fallen and joined Morgoth at the point of the Maiar’s mission to Middle Earth. And if he hadn’t yet fallen, why he wasn’t part of the mission.
THANK YOU for your accurate pronunciation of the names of people and places of Middle Earth. I get so tired of AI narrators butchering the phonetics that Tolkien labored so hard to bring into existence as fully formed and functional languages. We would have no Middle Earth if it were not for the fact that he created these languages first and then sought to create a world where they would live and breathe.
Really Cool Nerd of! It doesn't happen to often but just sometimes I get tidbits of info about the lore of lotr I didn't know about that I really care for, and this was really such a moment. I did not know GrandElf! had gone to Middle-earth prior to TA. I think it's vaguely hinted that the istari might be travelling to ME sometimes, in Lost tales. When Gandalf shows up to the council that sends away the istari, it says that he had been on a journey. I mean. When ur in the blessed lands, where could you go x'cept for ME!? Maybe the blessed lands are greater than I imagine but it seem kinda small. Also, great connection between Olorin-Cuivienen-Cirdan-Grey Havens-Gandalf. This is my headcannon that Cirdan regognized the spirit of Gandalf, if not the face.
what do you think the chance is that we'll ever get to witness some of these *oldest* stories and lore come to the big screen (aka Amazon or HBO or whatever). I think it would be so compelling and enjoyable.
Percieved - to become aware or conscious of/to realise or understand. The use of the word perceived would imply that Cirdan did indeed recognise Gandalf for who he truely was, possibly/probably the reason Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf (in oppose to one of the other Istari; such as their leader Saruman.
Sometimes I wish Olórin was one of Ulmo's servants. It seems so fitting the the valar who helped the free peoples the most in the First age was the master of the maiar, who helped the free peoples the most in the Third ages.
Fascinating stuff! I wonder, though, about Cirdan recognising Gandalf as Olorin. If this was so, why did he not remember the other four Istari, who also were sent to protect the elves while the Valar plotted war against Melkor? Also, Morgoth was named Morgoth by the Noldor (I believe it was Fëanor himself who gave Melkor this name). Prior to the Darkening of Valinor and the wars of Beleriand, he was only Melkor. Thus, during the Days of Bliss, he was Melkor. Yet you refer to him as Morgoth.
Masterful connection of Cirdan, Olorin and Nenya at the end! 👏🏻👏🏻🥲
"Many are my names in many countries. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves, Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not."
Where can i find this quote?
@@SapoFerreiro The Window on the West, The Two Towers
@@SapoFerreiro It's ion The Two Towers when Faramir is talking to Frodo about Gandalf.
To the east he's grand elf, didn't you watch the show?
Gandalf saying I go not could mean or be interpreted as he doesn't go there now but doesn't exclude the possibility he ventured before. He doesn't he never went there. And it's clear that he's a stranger with no name in the East as all other locations he was known by one of his many names. Remember the Two Towers was published in 1954 before the Tolkien's letters and Christopher editorial expanding the legendarium
Nice timing of the release of this video, setting the record straight as it were.
In a recent interview the RoP showrunners referred to this earlier visit of Olorin - and how he had not been instructed to “not match power with power” yet.
The richness of Tolkien's writing is endless.
You're on fire this week, spoiling us with so many videos. Thank you so much!
The man is locked in
May we all kindle hearts in a world that has gone chill. Thanks Matt. Your work will surely be remembered in the legends of middle earth.
It is unbelivable how big is Tolkien’s world, it could be covered by 50 films and still wouldn’t be enough
And 47 of them would probably be sh*t lol 😅
@@ackerman_chrisBut many of us will still watch because even a sh*t version of Tolkien's work is epic!
@@ackerman_chrisif amazon made them yeah. Imaginr if peter jackson made them all whith the same energy and was true to the material to the very end. Toljien fans would be happy for eternity, literaly.
@@andishyti7664 I'm being a bit optimistic but, oh yeah. We'd have another Game of Thrones level of success on our hands for surrrrree 🥲
Since we're on the subject of proto-Istari, I'd love a full video on Melian the Maia one day. Ik she gets name-dropped a lot in the Doriath videos but she deserves her own bc she's awesome (both her and Sauron's magic for example leaked into the woods in Doriath's northern outskirts, causing them to become haunted. Plus she's Galadriel's teacher. Yeah she's really scary if she wants to lol)
Second this
Third this. She is one awesome being, and of great importance for Middle Earth even though she left after the first age, in many ways. One of which in being the ancestor of Aragorn (and Arwen).
Gandalf lore drops are always appreciated ❤
I see that our boy here is doing the "lets get the ROP lore actually right" video rotation... It is APPRECIATED
In a time where different fandoms content creators are at war with one another, I am so happy that in my favorite universe we have someone like you. Hannon Le Melon!
It's not very often I learn something new about Middle-earth Lore as I have been studying the chronological history for 20 YEARS but wow. Your videos know how to grab all the detail and compile in a way that's easy to understand. Thank you for the new fresh perspective, and revived interest, in the VY. #FreeMorgoth
Thanks, Matt. This is the best and most concise description of the missions of the Istari that I have heard yet. Keep up the good work!
NOTH: I still cannot believe how AWESOME you continue to tell the tales of Middle Earth!!!🖤
Genius of you to drop this after the reveal. Well done brother! Love what you do.
I was reading Unfinished Tales the past week and it came to my mind that this quote/passage : "Olórin (who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir) brought it with him out of the West. And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great..... And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’ ....And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth....' "
Maybe i am totally confused as usual with my lore knowledge, but is that a slight indication about Olorin coming at the Second Age?It is interesting that the passage has Galadriel dwelling in the Greenwood. That does suggest that this might be in the Second Age, before she settled in Lórinand. Presumably this would be Olórin on a lesser mission, long before he was sent back to Middle-earth as one of the Istari.
In the books there are no direct references to the presence of Gandalf during the Second Age, but this example help us understand that perhaps, for Mr. Tolkien, this character could have traveled to Middle-earth in that period too, or at least that it was a concrete possibility. We are talking about a dialogue that took place before Galadriel’s reception of Nenya, and which therefore must be placed in the Second Age. Many of Mr.Tolkien's books leave great room for interpretation and alternative solutions, and much more of his material is still unexplored by the public.
@@MaroLitraTV interesting! Tolkien rewrote things and there is often more than one version of what happened
I think that Tolkien likes to hint that the Istari were around under some form and aware of what had happened, but at some point he decided that they would only "materialize" for the Third Age.
Personally I don't really like the idea that the Istari would have been sent for different missions. They had one mission, and it was to help in the fight against Sauron. I think that Tolkien explored various narrative paths for the Istari, but at some point he clearly decided that they wouldn't have been really active before that.
And it makes sense too. The Maiar are spirits, so the Istari weren't born for the Third Age, but they still existed. They possessed an understanding of the world that they have partially forgotten when they took physical form.
@@Ezullof I always find it interesting to speculate about how much the Istari remember from their time before a human body.
Tolkien hints that they have vague memories (kind of like memories we have of when we were 3/4) of Valinor
That the mind of one man could render all of this never ceases to amaze me. Every layer you peel back reveals a layer beneath. There is little doubt that without proper context, anyone who found these histories in the far future would believe this to be our historical and mythological belief system today.
OMG! MATT! Thank you sooooo much! When I was watching Rings Of Power, I was trying to recall where I had read about The Guardians, with Melian as their leader, and I searched and searched (I am notoriously poor at finding good search words!), but could not locate the actual, primary sources-your timing is exquisite, because I was going out of my mind there! Hope you will talk about this in the Rings And Realms wrap up???
Second age Gandalf (it is quite possible). I quote:
1960 narrative shows a conversation between Galadriel and Gandalf in the Second Age. The Lord of the Rings - Appendix B - "The Tale of Years" - "The Second Age“ , “The Elessar",(1959-1960) a rough four page manuscript about the history of the elfstone that Galadriel gives to Aragorn. In this text we can see Gandalf (Olórin) interacting with Galadriel who lives in Greenwood. The reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood the Great is to the second age section of Appendix B in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings. This conception was later edited out with the 1965 second edition of The Lord of the Rings, but it establishes the context for "The Elessar", showing that this conversation with Gandalf was in the Second Age.
And The Peoples of Middle-earth - Part 2, Chapter XIII, "Last Writings", 1972 essay mentions that it's very likely Gandalf had already been visiting Middle-earth. In the final year of Tolkien's life, in an essay discussing Glorfindel's reincarnation, Tolkien describes his relation to Gandalf, and mentions what Gandalf was doing in the Second Age. “That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing has yet been said of this.”
Olorin in the 2nd Age is NOT Gandalf. Tolkien is using Gandalf because that is who people know by name. Gandalf (Olorin embodied) was only in the 3rd Age.
If only Saruman remembered of his old days as well and his first mission (if those Maiar sent to the first Eldar are indeed the wizards), he would not have chosen to yield to Sauron. So, yes, it seems that they don't have the memories of their past when in Middle Earth. Interesting take on the sixth being Melian. ps : Cirdan is like a living library. Spanned all three ages of Middle Earth and the thought of remembering Gandalf without Gandalf remembering his struck me with awe as I watched your video. Another magical journey this video gave me. Thank you so much for your efforts.
I would love to see you make a video on Forodwaith and the Lossoth, as well as on Almaren and the Great Lake.
I am loving these weekly videos delving deeper into various parts of Middle Earth’s histories, canon, etc. 🙌🏽 It is fitting to delve into Gandalf’s early history after RoP teasing the Stranger’s identity for two seasons before finally revealing what we already knew.
This videos never fail to warm my heart. Thank you
this video was amazing, my tolkien knowledge grows
For me, the most mysterious moment in Gandalf's life is that very short time between being killed by the balrog and being resurrected as the White. Did he appear in Valinor and speak with the Valar? Did he debrief them and was briefed himself? Was he given a choice between staying and returning to Middle-earth? As the White, did he have any memories of what he saw and heard in the West?
@@Alcogod I agree that it probably was a blur (or thoughts that his humanized self couldn't process), but of course he remembered the main points: that he was now appointed as the White, and the core goal of his mission.
It makes me think about the Blue wizards. Did they completely forget their mission? Or perhaps they retained too many memories of their grand Maiar selves, becoming overconfident in their powers, ripe for corruption by evil?
@@Alcogod That does seem to be the premise in Rings of Power.
Gandalf did not go to Valinor. It was Ilúvatar who intervened and was responsible for deciding to restore much, if not all, of Gandalf's innate power to him and send him back to Middle-Earth as Gandalf the White.
@@Alcogod Tolkien changed his mind later and had the Blue Wizards go to Middle-Earth in the 2nd Age, where they had a lot of success in disrupting Sauron's plans for the Men of those lands, thus weakening Sauron's overall power although they didn't come close to stopping him.
@@istari0 "Send him back" from where? :)
Great explanation of Gandalf's first mission to Middle Earth. I came across this passage in the Simarillion and the Unfinished Tales many years ago.
A really interesting video, and I really like your theory about Círdan recognising Gandalf!
I don't think that the Istari completely forgot their past (after all, Saruman had to have access to some of his prior knowledge learned from Aule to delve deep into the "ring technology"). It's probably more like that they only remembered faint impressions, like we remember childhood memories. This might have been not even a deliberate move made by the Valar, but perhaps it was a natural limitation of their mortal bodies - the memories of a timeless, essentially bodyless being probably can't fully manifest in such a limited vessel.
Gandalf mentions at one point that he wishes to use a Palantír to see Eressea, Tirion and Valinor again - a sign of his longing for the Undying Lands (and perhaps his full true self). And perhaps this shows us how his memory works - he can remember what it was, but not how it was. I really hope that he was able to become himself once again after arriving in Aman. But his "life" as Gandalf/Mithrandir certainly also shaped him to some extent.
9:52 I find this picture of Círdan so funny 😂 it makes me laugh every single time
You get these videos out with such perfect timing!
Awesome, as always. I was not aware of that first mission.
Thank you
Cirdan knew Mithradir, that was why he gave him his ring. Galadriel knew that Mithrandir was Olorin. Elrond didn’t know, but he suspected something.
Awesome research and presentation, as usual! :D
That was amazingly well put together. It's nice to see some get the lore correct :)
Ahhh my husband just introduced you to me and I can't stop consuming! I love your channel! Thank you for what you do!
Thank you so much! Welcome to the channel! :)
Truly interesting stuff! I had no idea about the identity of those who came over to protect the first born. Thanks for this very old story.
THANK YOU DEBBIE!!!!
I see what you did here. Wonderful interpretation of Tolkien and a generous veil for Amazon to cower behind. Well, it worked. Great food for thought regarding Olorin's history.
In the context of Middle-earth, the name "Gandalf" comes from the Northmen of Rhovanion, a group of people who spoke languages related to the ancestors of the Rohirrim. Gandalf is a name derived from Old Norse in our world, but Tolkien often used such names for characters associated with the culture of the Northmen and Rohirrim, whose language resembles Old English and Old Norse in style.
Within Middle-earth's lore, Gandalf's true name among the Maiar (the powerful spirits sent to Middle-earth) is Olórin, a name known in Valinor, where he originally came from. However, when he took on the guise of a wizard and traveled among Men and Elves, different peoples gave him different names.
The Elves of Middle-earth call him Mithrandir, meaning "Grey Pilgrim" in Sindarin.
The Dwarves called him Tharkûn.
The Northmen (Rohirrim and their ancestors) knew him as Gandalf, a name that Tolkien adapted from Old Norse mythology.
So, while Gandalf is a name from Norse mythology in our world, within Middle-earth it is attributed to the Northmen, who likely viewed him as a mysterious, powerful figure-much like a wandering sage or wizard.
Mairon, spying on the Valar for Melkor in Almaren and Valinor before being given the name Sauron, was said to have been the first one to discover the Elves in The Nature of Middle-earth. This means he was not only the first of the Ainur to lay eyes on the Children of Eru, but was also likely the one who spread Melkor's whispers among them before the arrival of Oromë. He was manipulating the Elves, like he would again much later in Eriador, even long before they had first made the Great Journey to Aman.
Thanks for all your hard work.
Hello Nerd of the Rings. Thank you for all of your work. I enjoy all the content 🤙
yesss ever since Nature of middle earth I've been waiting for you to cover this topic
Gandalf is one of the greatest characters of all time
that drawing of Cirdan at 9:5 is gorgeous! 😀
All of the unknowns you just mentioned are why I’m totally fine with the stranger being Gandalf. There is a ton of lore yes, but there are probably even more gaps and unknowns that they can weave into the lore. Nothing is being taken away from Tolkien or his great work by expanding on it. Just like all the fan fiction extended universe Star Wars books don’t take away from what Lucas did
Rop is fanfic crap,it has nothing to do with spirit of Tolkien work…
Great video as usual! I was wondering if you could do a video about the seen and the unseen world in Tolkien’s mythology since is a topic very open for debate and little is know about it.
Thank you so much!
I'm wondering how they'll work Gandalf into the story in season 3 of RoP. So far his story is completely disconnected. The connection with Cirdan could be interesting
I wasn't aware of his first mission, I'm reading through Nature of Middle Earth atm, though it's a harder read cause of all the math and such 😅 but very interesting nonetheless!
Such a great video. Well explained.
I've read there is some unfinished tales or perhaps letters (yet to cross reference) that Tolkein toyed with the idea of sending Gandalf earlier. Ultimately ROP needs to be adaptable for both book and casual fans. It's because of ROP I've now watched so many of your videos, read some of the similarian, bought the Christopher Tolkien complications of the history of middle earth and have fully re fell in love with Middle Earth all over again. The beauty of it all is there are so many appendices and additions.
Wow, somehow didn't know about this. Very cool! Thanks for another great vid.
Love this story, thank you greatly Matt 😊
Interesting to see that Cuivíenen was in the general area where Sauron would build Baradur (but perhaps further east), and that the lake where the elves awoke was turned into Mordor. Never knew that.
Looks to me like someone was a bit jealous.
My day always gets better when you upload new video :D
I don't know who needs to hear this, but Gandalf loves you.
But is it on that Gandalf is in rings of power?
Thank you. Needed that today.
Amen 🙏
Believe in the Gandalf that believes in you. ❤
WWGD
I enjoyed this one very much. Thanks!
What you said about the 5 Wizards having only few and dim memories of their first mission to Middle Earth in the Elder Days is interesting. It makes sense for the Valar to do that to them - since the Wizards in the 3rd Age might be greatly frustrated if they clearly remembered the greater power given to them long ago in the Elder Days.
Even as it was, Saruman clearly grew frustrated about having much less power than Sauron - and that was why he coveted the One Ring. That was enough to corrupt him and turn him to evil.
What a beautiful character.
Another great video. ♥️♥️
I thought Grandelf usually arrives by meteor, forgets everything on arrival, even how to speak and is usually really confused about everything...
I was looking for this comment! 😂
Rings of Power story be like,
Dark Wizard: You- found your name? I still need to find mine.
Stranger: I really wish I could help. Sorry, man.
Dark Wizard: Wait, what did you say?
That was a good joke ! ROFL!
I love the idea that Melian could have been sent as a Wizard if Thingol hadn't fallen in love with her. How differently would the 1st and 3rd age have played out. You should do a video on that.
What a wonderful story imagine if someone made a dhow about this stuff it would br awesome. Guess your the only one telling the tale really enjoyed it.
Edit: I wrote this comment before I got to the end of the video haha
Unless i'm mistaken it's speculated that Cirdan was amongst the first awoken elves in middle earth iirc? I wonder if that's why he trusted Gandalf and gave him narya all those thousands of years later when the Istari returned to middle earth. Did Cirdan remember Gandalf, or at least perceive him as one of the original guides sent by the Valar when the elves awoke?
I think the appendices explain why.
In Lord Of The Rings Online there is a story line speaking of Gandalf and Glorfindel's being friends and close before the ring was cut from from Saurons hand
Thanks!
Great video!
This brings up another very interesting question: as immortal beings, do the elves (and the Istari) remember things in a way that Men can't quite grasp? Or do they forget, really?
We do have a hint that maybe memory is slippery for Gandalf in the mortal sense, when we're in Moria and he says "I have no memory of this place." That could mean he forgot - or it could mean that he never came by those specific halls when he visited Khazadum.
But I submit that most people tend to file away memories that don't need to be referenced often. We already know that folks have short term memory, and a kind of "working memory" for keeping track of this week/last month (relatively recent events and information). It makes perfect sense that elves too would have such distinctions in their minds. But how fascinating might it be if, for the elves, that distinction is MUCH more intentional than it is for Men?
What if Gandalf does recall that very first mission - but rarely accesses that memory, leaving it "on the shelf" in his general day-to-day living? Very little of that information would be of help for him in his mission during the Third Age, after all. With Glorfindel - well, perhaps he does recall those days in Valinor, but again what use in making a stir about it? The elves are masters of subtlety and wise in the ways of speaking without voices: it's entirely plausible that the two met in Middle-Earth and merely nodded to each other, and that was enough to reaffirm the old friendship. Or maybe they just kept it very private, took a moment to greet each other warmly, and never mentioned it afterwards. Recall how reserved MOST of the peoples of Middle-Earth are (which I'm given to understand is also common to the British, culturally, at least in Tolkein's generation). Totally makes sense that even with strong memories of his friend, Gandalf wouldn't have mentioned it overtly.
As for Cirdan - absolutely he recognized the spirit of the being who had helped his people. But Cirdan is exceedingly good about keeping his mouth shut. He really seems to be that sort of person who sees MUCH more than he lets on, and holds secrets upon secrets, not in the way a dragon hoards gold but rather in the way that a library holds books. Should someone actually need that knowledge, he might divulge it, but you'd have to ask - you'd better have a VERY GOOD REASON for asking, too. Though I don't think Cirdan would ever shout at someone for such questions. He's seen so much, he's witnessed ages come and go, and I think of all the elves he's the one most in control of pretty much every situation that comes his way. Maybe some of that is also that he rarely leaves his city, but I think a lot of it is simply a quiet competence and steadfast nature that allows him to just... handle whatever needs to be handled. Always felt like Cirdan and Glorfindel were the two characters I'd feel safest with in Middle Earth. I mean, I'd be comfortable around any of the hobbits, but I'd feel like the one that needs to do more of the protecting, you know? Whereas every time I read about that last ship to Valinor I cry a little because I'd sure like to think there's a haven *I* could run to at the end of everything.
Gandalf's character is the best one in all of fiction!!!
“I am Gandalf! And Gandalf means…ME!” 😎
Gandalf? Gandalf? Ah yes, elderly chap. Big grey beard, pointy hat.
Thank you Nerd. I like your voice..😮
Hey, love ur vids man. I have a video suggestion which I think could be really interesting. What if the other races of middle earth had rings of power. Eg orcs, dragons and ents. Thanks!
8 for the elder ents, wise and withdrawn. 5 for the orc generals, savage and vile. 2 for the great fire drakes, enormous and terrifying.
This was a great palate cleanser after “The Stranger”.
I would love to read a conversation between Melian and Olorin.
Brilliant video. Thank you.
Ok, so what if the mission he has in RoP will result in his demise and return to the west. He will later return in a new form in the 3rd age as we all know and not really remember his mission in the 2nd age. 😅
I think it’d be super epic for Círdan to have remembered/ recognized Gandalf from his previous mission to Middle Earth. A bit like the scene in the Two Towers where the three hunters recognize Gandalf but he’s yet different. While Gandalf half remembers at the moment, expressing his return in his new mission.
I wonder if Sauron had yet fallen and joined Morgoth at the point of the Maiar’s mission to Middle Earth. And if he hadn’t yet fallen, why he wasn’t part of the mission.
Yet another personal video after the latest Rings of Power episode. Educational but still funny XD
Never change Nerd, never change
Still have not recovered from the stranger being gandalf 🤦♂️
I love it.
For me, the pain is still too near
Duh, who'd you think it would be? I was surprised that the evil wizard was supposed to be one of the blue guys. I thought they came later.
TBH, we didn't get a full origin to how Gandalf came to be in the second age. Season 2 delivered this very well.
Same, bud, same
The fact this came out after season 2 finale!
Getting blasted to Middle Earth and having to find out who you are every time would be a pain in the @ss imo. lol
I love your videos. Period.
8:50 likewise i wonder if glorfindel might have recognized olorin, perhaps in the same way cirdan might have
As always, love your videos :) The general positivity and good will here is so appreciated. Have a great day!
You forgot to mention that time when he found his name because a few hobbits gave it to him. Grand-Elf, Gandalf. Oh and "He is a Rhun man" for Saruman
THANK YOU for your accurate pronunciation of the names of people and places of Middle Earth. I get so tired of AI narrators butchering the phonetics that Tolkien labored so hard to bring into existence as fully formed and functional languages. We would have no Middle Earth if it were not for the fact that he created these languages first and then sought to create a world where they would live and breathe.
A nice epilogue scene to the final season of The Rings of Power could be Gandalf arriving at the Grey Havens and Cirdan giving him Narya.
Really Cool Nerd of! It doesn't happen to often but just sometimes I get tidbits of info about the lore of lotr I didn't know about that I really care for, and this was really such a moment. I did not know GrandElf! had gone to Middle-earth prior to TA. I think it's vaguely hinted that the istari might be travelling to ME sometimes, in Lost tales. When Gandalf shows up to the council that sends away the istari, it says that he had been on a journey. I mean. When ur in the blessed lands, where could you go x'cept for ME!? Maybe the blessed lands are greater than I imagine but it seem kinda small.
Also, great connection between Olorin-Cuivienen-Cirdan-Grey Havens-Gandalf. This is my headcannon that Cirdan regognized the spirit of Gandalf, if not the face.
Awesome as always
Seeding a hopeful season 3/4 character pairing I see
Could not help but notice that the image of Olorin (5’5”) is the face of Franz Liszt 😂
You should do a theory on "What if Melian stayed in Middle Earth?"
I had always thought that Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel knew who he was, but it´s unclear that anybody else did.
I think Celeborn knew as well and likely Glorfindel.
@@istari0 yes, I think that´s fair.
Thank you for this. My wound is still new. Siara enno.
Thats awesome! So Gandalf was indeed in Middle-Earth before the Third Age ❤
Many names.
@@atlasfeynman1039like Grand-elf and stranger?
But not during the 2nd Age. He didn't return until the 3rd Age.
Yes in the Years of the Trees, but in his true being as Olorin. Not in the guise of Gandalf the Istari.
@@Alex-s-m2p A rose by any other name smells as sweet.
Excellent
what do you think the chance is that we'll ever get to witness some of these *oldest* stories and lore come to the big screen (aka Amazon or HBO or whatever). I think it would be so compelling and enjoyable.
Percieved - to become aware or conscious of/to realise or understand. The use of the word perceived would imply that Cirdan did indeed recognise Gandalf for who he truely was, possibly/probably the reason Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf (in oppose to one of the other Istari; such as their leader Saruman.
Sometimes I wish Olórin was one of Ulmo's servants. It seems so fitting the the valar who helped the free peoples the most in the First age was the master of the maiar, who helped the free peoples the most in the Third ages.
Fascinating stuff!
I wonder, though, about Cirdan recognising Gandalf as Olorin. If this was so, why did he not remember the other four Istari, who also were sent to protect the elves while the Valar plotted war against Melkor?
Also, Morgoth was named Morgoth by the Noldor (I believe it was Fëanor himself who gave Melkor this name). Prior to the Darkening of Valinor and the wars of Beleriand, he was only Melkor.
Thus, during the Days of Bliss, he was Melkor. Yet you refer to him as Morgoth.
Matt have you ever made a video with your favorite editions of all the books related to the Middle earth?