I used to think i basically knew LOTR but watching this channel and it's analysis of the expanded/unfinished works, add tons of depth and understanding. I've gained a much deeper respect for his work since
i like the idea of Cirdan seeing Gandalf arrive in middle Earth and thinking to himself "Olorin my old friend, i will honour you as you have honoured us in the past" and then giving his ring of power to Gandalf. No great foresight just an elf remembering his friensd.
Old friends, very likely, although I think there was a whole lot more to it than merely that... Especially with Cirdan the Shipwright being renown for his long foresight and wisdom as well, and also residing in the Grey Havens no doubt having a more direct and closer connection with the Eldar and Ainur still dwelling back in Valinor and thus being privy to a shared degree of their additional wisdom, especially that of Mandos, by virtue of his location at the very western-most docks with ships travelling to (and maybe sometimes fro) the Blessed Realm. How much folly could potentially arise from a friend merely giving another friend such an incredibly powerful gift out only personal fealty, but how much good could it bring about by knowing it was being given to someone truly worthy to wield it, and who most certainly would come to need it, and gifted by someone not careless but incredibly pensive and prescient as Cirdan, who, it bears to also keep in mind, had ALREADY been wearing Narya for an entire age, no doubt having enhanced his powers of true-sight and foretelling as well as his tenuous but no-doubt present "psychic-link" (so to speak) to the Valar residing across the Sea of Belagaer.
@@krain.8245 Based on what was stated in this video, it's possible that a young Cirdan met Olorin when the Maiar first visited Middle Earth with Orome. Many millenia later, Cirdan is one of the few remaining elves who remembered their first interaction with the Maiar, and so he saw past Gandalf's human form and recognized him as Olorin, despite never having been to Valinor
@@krain.8245 Cirdan did not reach Valinor until the last ship set sail. Cirdan was, by the time of the Lord of the Rings, the oldest elf in Middle Earth, having set off with Elwe from the original homeland of the elves to Valinor, and stopped to find the lost Elwe, turned Thingol, when his King was lost. This caused him to miss the trip to Valinor multiple times, and so he was left on Middle-Earth. He was then cautioned by the valar Ulmo that he would be needed on Middel-Earth, and so he stayed put. He didn't get to Valinor until several ages later, after the destruction of the 2 trees, War of Wrath, rise and fall of Sauron, and eventually taking the last ship with Celeborn some time after King Elessar's (Aragorn's) death in the Fourth Age.
I remember reading in the Silmarillion that Olorin (Gandalf) liked to hang out in the gardens of Nienna in Valinor, and that he learned much from her. I like to see a connection there: Nienna taught Olorin about grief and pity, and Olorin in turn advised the children of Iluvatar, as well as Bilbo and Frodo. As we know, the pity of Bilbo and Frodo allowed the Ring to be destroyed. Nienna's pity triumphed in the end.
It’s interesting, you see glimpses of immense power from Gandalf, but he seldom really does anything more than talk to the right people at the right time. And seeing the potential for dominance with Saruman when he got off the leash. Placing the emissaries under strict rules of engagement makes a lot of sense.
I think you are underselling Gandalf's personal achievements. He personally opened the hidden doors of Moria, killed a Balrog (!), healed the king of Rohan from Saruman's spells, contested the might of the Nazgul on Weathertop, repelled the Nazgul on the Pelennor in rescuing Faramir and his troops, added to the destructive power of the flood of Bruinen, and broke the power of Saruman. That is a lot of things he did, other than talking.
@@dandiehm8414 Yes but I’m not sure he was that confident that he could do it. We see it. I’m not sure that he did. Or that Frodo would be able to succeed.
@@dandiehm8414 All of these are indeed great things, but Gandalf of all people understood that nothing else would matter if the One Ring was not destroyed and Sauron emerged victorious.
@@Lennis01 That was not the point I was making. I was responding to the Original poster who said " but he seldom really does anything more than talk to the right people at the right time" He did MUCH more than just talk.
@@dandiehm8414 Technically, Frodo solved and thus opened the hidden doors of Moria, Gandalf was merely the translator who answered Frodo's question of what "Friend" means in Elvish ("Mellon") which is actually chalking up another point to precisely what @Belligerent_Herald was trying to say, "talk to the right people at the right time" ;)
I think this also leans into the idea that Gandalf was initially hesitant and afraid of returning. Perhaps he didn't want to project a show of force as they had before. It could also be that, without that direct power, he felt like he would be weaker than Sauron. Interesting stuff!
Weaker than Sauron? Allow me to direct your thoughts to a passage often overlooked. Upon the return of Gandalf, there's a brief interaction between (I think) Aragorn and Gandalf, which ends with the acknowledgement "I am Gandalf the white, but black is mightier still..." He says this, I believe, because he's acknowledging that Sauron is indeed much more mighty than he, Olorin is. And while Gandalf might be wiser, he knows that Sauron is mightier. Much in the same way as Melkor was the mightiest of the Valar...
Yep. Going back into battle locked in elderly mortal form with a small percentage of your power and memories is far different then going back at full strength. Truly an Unconventional Warfare mission.
@@Raz.C Gandalf the White isn't as powerful as the unrestricted Olorin was. Indeed he is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, but not on the same level as he was as Olorin
@@igorlopes7589 Here's the thing, though... A common theme running through the annals of Middle Earth, is that things are at their best when they are still new. The mightiest of the Elves were those who either awoke at Cuiviennen, or who were only a few generations removed. Feanor is a great case-study. He was the greatest in skill of mind and of arms. His sons were lesser, but still accounted among the mightiest. His grandsons were of negligible might, when compared with the Calaquendi (since they were all Moriquendi, having been born and raised in Beleriand). Nevertheless, they still outclassed all the Avari. It was the same, only more salient, with the Edain and Numenoreans. Hador and Hurin, Tuor and Turin... They were the absolute pinnacle of Humanity. They resisted adversity such as no other humans had known and yet they still thrived!! And when the Valar granted an extended life span to the Numenoreans, it was the first generation that lived longest, with each subsequent generation being 'lesser' than those before it. There are still exceptions, here and there, such as Aragorn, whose deeds, wisdom and might exceeded all of his forebearers up to and including Elendil. Or Faramir, who- as Tolkien writes- "by some trick of the bloodlines, the blood of the Westernesse ran almost true in his veins." For the most part, though, the general trend of all living things in Middle Earth is towards decay. It is very rare for an individual to overcome this entropic trend. I suspect that due to his constant practice and adaptation, Sauron became mightier with the passage of time, while Gandalf did not. When Gandalf faced the Balrog for the first time, not knowing what it was, as it was on the other side of a door, he tells Aragorn "I have never faced such a challenge! It nearly broke me!" And this wasn't a life-and-death struggle, but rather a struggle over the status of a door; Open or closed. Sauron, on the other hand had faced innumerable such challenges. Some during the First Age, some in the Second and some also in the Third age of the world. THIS is why I believe that Sauron was at his best and striving to always be better. Gandalf was undoubtedly the wiser, having dedicated most of his time in Lorien (Valinor) to understanding things. However, even if he might have once been mightier than Sauron, he never practiced his skill in might of arms and so it decayed. That's why a Balrog was able to kill him. Furthermore, his mandate wasn't to lead men (and elves and dwarves, etc), but rather to inspire them... Anyway, for all those reasons (as well as the ones I forgot to include), I'm inclined to maintain my position. I still believe that Sauron was mightier than Gandalf. I've yet to hear any evidence that would make me think otherwise. Again, as Gandalf himself said "I am Gandalf the White, now. And White is mightier than Grey, but Black is mightier still!"
@@Raz.C I am not trying to claim Gandalf the White is stronger than Sauron. I was just talking that Olorin was more powerful than Gandalf the White, because Olorin wasn't restricted. Also, the Numenoreans only started to live less than the previous generations once they started to turn against the Valar in their hearts
Oh thank you, Robert-I appreciate your elucidation of The Guardians, and I too like the idea that Melian already knew Thingol before enchanting him, and that Cirdan knew Gandalf from before. It is a lovely thought.
I like the idea I've seen elsewhere that the Istari returned to Valinor after their first task but it went so unbelievably awfully that they were like, "Just wipe our memories, Manwë, that absolutely sucked"
Manwë puts down his rule book and looks up, scowling. "Fine, you can try again," he says, "but I'm nerfing you all this time. You don't remember anything and almost all your power is locked away and can only be accessed through a stick. No, not any stick, it has to be a special stick. You know what, for that quip I'm gonna make you all old men. Also, you get new names."
@@StarkRG Looool ye. Even Ged from Earthsea could just make a staff from a blade of grass. Poor Gandalf has that one specific staff for each version of himself (Grey/White) and that's it.
These videos have been an absolute godsend since I started listening to the Silmarillion. Helping me make sense of what has to be one of the deepest rabbit holes I’ve ever stumbled into. Thank you!
This may be the first Middle-Earth video I’ve listened from you and I really appreciate all the nuance that’s picked up here, there’s no singular meaning or outcome in Tolkien’s work and it’s all explained in full. I normally listen to the Game of Thrones videos but I will plunge into the Middle-Earth videos as well!
There's a fascinating parallel, here. In _The_ _Prince_ Niccolò Machiavelli divides rulers into "Lions" and "Foxes". Lions rule by force and power, while foxes rule by cunning and persuasion. It's interesting how Tolkien demonstrates that the Maiar coming as "Lions" doesn't get the desired result out of the elves, so he switches them to "Fox" advisors in the form of old men to accomplish their task. I wonder if Tolkien read Machiavelli?
I’d like to say that the only one to actually have the most good done in LOTR was Gandalf, who acted the most like a Lion of the group when they came back, everyone else failed in their missions in one way or the other. But he also was the most diplomatic as well, he cared about the little and small, along with the mighty, he was very balanced and wise in his judgement.
This has revolutionized my understanding of LOTR. Thank you! I had a faint memory of Olorin visiting middle earth really early on but forgot the context and source, and Melian hanging with the Eldar at Cuiviennan blew my mind. This also brought a new perspective on the controversy over ROP bringing in all the Istari to ME earlier than expected, even if it’s different than as written.
The lore of Middle-Earth can be so beautiful. Though I have not read the various books and engaged with the world in so long I am always drawn back to it's lore and am reminded why it entranced me so many years ago. Thank you for the video.
This is fascinating. I'd always read that passage about the Valar wishing to amend their past errors was referring to the destruction of Beleriand, but this is fascinating new context for it!
I seriously thought that the reason The Wizards were nerfed was because of the mistake of the Valar and Maiar attacking Morgoth at the end of First Age because their power was so great it destroyed Beleriand and sunk it to the sea.
That's definitely part of the reason. It's all got to do with how non-interventionist the Ainur are, because the few times they do try to help out the Eldar, only Ulmo succeeds with little collateral damage while the rest of them blow shit up and make some of the survivors grow distrustful. Even Melian, who found a good balance between actively interfering and letting the elves make their own decisions, was unheeded many many times. Basically if you're a Vala or a Maia there'll always be someone who doubts you lol
Wow. For me this answers every lingering question I've had about LOTR since I was a kid, some 30 years ago. Crazy we can still learn more. Thanks for that IDG.
A fascinating bit that lends much to what were otherwise a few niggling doubts I had had (Cirdan's choice to give Narya to Gandalf/Olorin, for example). Thank you for digging this up!
Excellent video, how cool to see the art we commissioned for the Lord of the ring game that we podcast about displayed so prominently in your thumbnail!! Ralph is a wonderful artist
Great story. Like you said, it fills in a lot of gaps. I always feel sorry for Radagst the Brown though. He did help Gandalf in his mission, but is seldom labeled a "success" when it comes to the mission of the Istari. Whatever happened to him after the fall of Sauron? I suspect he stayed in Middle Earth with his beloved animals. Maybe that can be one of your next episodes. 🤔
I'm pretty sure Robert said in another video that, after calling on the Eagles, Radagast leaves the narrative entirely. The last we ever hear of him was "Our Elven hunters found his home, but could not track him." I think Radagast essentially lost sight of his Greater Purpose, devoting himself to the plants and animals of Middle Earth, losing the yearning for Aman, and just...faded, the same way the Elves who remained in Middle Earth did, "Doomed to forget and be forgotten," in Galadriel's words.
@@thomashauguel6811 All I'm aware of is that Tolkien said at one point that Gandalf was the only Wizard who completed his mission and returned home. I'm pretty sure Robert also remarked on that. Can't remember what he said about it, though.
You have this great story telling voice (a big reason I love your channel). So you can imagine how much I LOLed when you so casually explained how all the wizards just simply forgot about their first mission.
Could you argue that gandalf the white was a change in tactic also. His return as a more General and combat focused figure was a harkening to the first mission.
Gandalf went home, drank 3 liters of coffee, returned to Middle Earth more buzzed than a forest of angry bees, and finished the mission in 3 weeks with more energy than he had for the entire 2,000 years or so that he'd been in Middle Earth already.
I have the Nature Of Middle Earth book. Wow is it detailed! The various accounts of time according to the Valar, Elves and Mortal Men. How many years an Elf has lived in comparison to their age etc. This book was quite an undertaking for sure.
Long story short, the first Maiar expedition acted like pushy, intimidating jerks and it pissed off the elves causing problems. The Valar took notes and told them to return but "Be nice this time!" 🧙♂️
@@cebolaameaca nice. I've been watching maybe a year or two now. One of those very special channels that basically post nothing but incredibly high quality stuff.
I feel like there are some parallels here to Q in Star Trek TNG. When Q appears and forces his power on the crew, he is met with largely resistance and opposition. However, his most important intervention - introducing the Federation to the Borg - is mainly hands off. Aside from transporting the Enterprise in the first place, Q is absent most of the encounter. It’s only when Picard accepts his hubristic notion, of being able to meet any challenge when it comes, that he sends the ship back. Even the act of pushing and pulling the Enterprise could be analogous to Gandalf’s manipulation of the Dwarves to deal with Smaug; he pushes the Dwarves (& Bilbo) into an adventure driven a lot by their own choices. Only once at the Lonely Mountain do the Dwarves seriously start to consider the question of how to deal with the dragon. Bard’s lethal arrow shot comes from covert information first gathered by Bilbo - this echoes Worf’s observation that where blunt strength cannot succeed, one must use guile. I doubt there is a direct link between the acts of Gandalf and the Q/Borg storyline, but it was one of the first things that came to mind.
The two Blue Wizards were sent to Middle Earth in the Second Age, to the East to stir up rebellion against Sauron. Saruman, Gandalf & Rhadagast came to Middle Earth in the Third Age! The two Blue Wizards also went again to Middle Earth, the East again, but earlier again than the other 3! During the War of the Valar against Morgoth to protect the Elves, yes, those Maia who became the Istari went as part of the host of the Valar. In their full splendor!
The Blue Wizard arrived at the same time as did the other 3. There is no evidence that the Istari existed in Middle Earth before 1000 of The Third Age.
Perhaps the earlier mission of the Blue Wizards was a trial run of sorts? The Valar dipping their toe in to see if success was even possible with such diminished forms, or something?
@@bluesbest1 Man, who knows at this point ? You have the canon...but then is the canon actually the canon when every note Tolkien ever wrote that didn't make it into canon is being published in different ominbus are maybe or maybe not conscidered canon ?
@@thecollector6746 You'd think that Death of the Author would apply to an author that's literally dead, and yet we're still getting changes to canon by the author's hand 50 years later. Of course, because it's Tolkien, a lot of us accept it anyway because he's just that good an author.
I knew about their earlier mission from The Nature of Middle-earth but hadn't thought about the implications of it - Melian and Thingol becoming smitten with each other, why Gandalf had a love for the Elves, the reason Cirdan recognized Gandalf when he arrived in the Third Age. Great insights!
I love hearing you break down the stories and facts and non-facts. In fact you could write fanfiction and even if you didn't tell it was yours I'd keep listening and probably wouldn't notice. These videos calm me down and put perspective into play to my thoughts.
Allons-Y Alonzo! Nous allons à la montagne. nous n'oublierons pas, nous ne vous pardonnerons pas. Vous êtes sans nom, sans visage et sans forme ! Retourne dans le vide d'où tu es sorti! Flottez sur une rivière pour toujours et à jamais jusqu'à ce que vous soyez dissous dans les ténèbres pour l'éternité.
Great episode. One small nit pic. My interpretation is that fate (aka eru) brought Thingol and Melian together, not her machinations. She was "trapped" as well as he.
I'm sure that the "errors of old" refer to the Valar messing things up by intervening with their full powers. But it's fun to interpret this in other ways.
Wow. I didn't know of an earlier mission that that Astari had been sent on by the Valar. Very good and thoughtful and nicely done video!! Thanks so much for this!
I had gathered from things mentioned in the LOTR, the appendices of the LOTR, and somethings said in “The Silmarillion” that the Istari had been there before. There's something Gandalf said that made it sound as though he had been in Middle Earth since the Second Age. The timeline in the appendices I thought indicated that Sauron’s first attempt to conquer Middle Earth ended the Second Age and that the Third Age began with Sauron’s first defeat. Maybe I misinterpreted things.
Thank you indeed for this excellent walkthrough! I seldom find something about Tolkien on TH-cam that I didn't know or had forgotten, and I relish the opportunity when I do. This is really deep lore, would perhaps be fit for us to cast into song!
Bravo! on many of these recent analyses. I haven't always agreed with all of the analyses on this channel - really only a couple of the older ones - these latest have been excellent summaries and very interesting and thought provoking. Thank you for these.
Gandalf is like that one NPC who never dies , knows everything about every mission , saves you more than you can remember and makes you feel like a side character but still get hyped every time he shows up . Cause you know it's going to be a blast.
Very interesting. I vaguely remembered that line about sending the Istari to amend past mistakes, but I'd always thought it mostly referred to the Valar directly intervening at the end of the War of Wrath (which wrecked half a continent), or their attempts to protect the elves from Morgoth by bringing them all to Valinor. I didn't know about the additional Tolkein material, but that definitely adds some more depth to what I'd originally thought the story contained. The theme of the Istari's mission was clearly always "help the people of Middle-Earth help themselves", rather than trying to compel them to it by force or through over-awing them. It makes sense that there would be some additional details as to how the Valar had tried the other approach before and seen it fail.
The revelation that the future Istari had gone to Middle-Earth in the 1st Age to protect the Elves along with Melian was one of the most fascinating parts of "The Nature of Middle-Earth." However, I don't know that in the end the Elves had that much of a choice about leaving Middle-Earth. Those who chose to remain would eventually fade to weak, disembodied spirits. Middle-Earth was not intended to be their final home.
I love me some Carl Hostetter. He's so kind to those with questions and full of good humility. Very smart. Very thorough. Plus, he works at NASA. Unless he's retired. That's as close to Varda, Elentari, as one gets these days.
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In deep geek has been on a crazy run of great content lately especially LOTR stuff
It's a great channel my friend
I used to think i basically knew LOTR but watching this channel and it's analysis of the expanded/unfinished works, add tons of depth and understanding. I've gained a much deeper respect for his work since
Agreed!
Agreed but just to be that guy, I've seen a couple reuploads mixed in as well, pipeweed for example
@JojenReed I think he mentioned that some of the older videos are getting reworked along with the travelers' guides.
i like the idea of Cirdan seeing Gandalf arrive in middle Earth and thinking to himself "Olorin my old friend, i will honour you as you have honoured us in the past" and then giving his ring of power to Gandalf. No great foresight just an elf remembering his friensd.
very cool take in it
Old friends, very likely, although I think there was a whole lot more to it than merely that...
Especially with Cirdan the Shipwright being renown for his long foresight and wisdom as well, and also residing in the Grey Havens no doubt having a more direct and closer connection with the Eldar and Ainur still dwelling back in Valinor and thus being privy to a shared degree of their additional wisdom, especially that of Mandos, by virtue of his location at the very western-most docks with ships travelling to (and maybe sometimes fro) the Blessed Realm. How much folly could potentially arise from a friend merely giving another friend such an incredibly powerful gift out only personal fealty, but how much good could it bring about by knowing it was being given to someone truly worthy to wield it, and who most certainly would come to need it, and gifted by someone not careless but incredibly pensive and prescient as Cirdan, who, it bears to also keep in mind, had ALREADY been wearing Narya for an entire age, no doubt having enhanced his powers of true-sight and foretelling as well as his tenuous but no-doubt present "psychic-link" (so to speak) to the Valar residing across the Sea of Belagaer.
Wasn't Cirdan not from Valinor? I believe he had never reached Aman and settled in the middle earth as among the Sindar.
@@krain.8245 Based on what was stated in this video, it's possible that a young Cirdan met Olorin when the Maiar first visited Middle Earth with Orome. Many millenia later, Cirdan is one of the few remaining elves who remembered their first interaction with the Maiar, and so he saw past Gandalf's human form and recognized him as Olorin, despite never having been to Valinor
@@krain.8245 Cirdan did not reach Valinor until the last ship set sail. Cirdan was, by the time of the Lord of the Rings, the oldest elf in Middle Earth, having set off with Elwe from the original homeland of the elves to Valinor, and stopped to find the lost Elwe, turned Thingol, when his King was lost. This caused him to miss the trip to Valinor multiple times, and so he was left on Middle-Earth. He was then cautioned by the valar Ulmo that he would be needed on Middel-Earth, and so he stayed put. He didn't get to Valinor until several ages later, after the destruction of the 2 trees, War of Wrath, rise and fall of Sauron, and eventually taking the last ship with Celeborn some time after King Elessar's (Aragorn's) death in the Fourth Age.
This is the obscure lore im here for
The more obscure, the better. The deeper we get into Tolkien's lore, the more we're impressed by Tolkien's mind.
It's not obscure, you are just a filthy movie casual!
I remember reading in the Silmarillion that Olorin (Gandalf) liked to hang out in the gardens of Nienna in Valinor, and that he learned much from her. I like to see a connection there: Nienna taught Olorin about grief and pity, and Olorin in turn advised the children of Iluvatar, as well as Bilbo and Frodo. As we know, the pity of Bilbo and Frodo allowed the Ring to be destroyed. Nienna's pity triumphed in the end.
It’s interesting, you see glimpses of immense power from Gandalf, but he seldom really does anything more than talk to the right people at the right time. And seeing the potential for dominance with Saruman when he got off the leash. Placing the emissaries under strict rules of engagement makes a lot of sense.
I think you are underselling Gandalf's personal achievements. He personally opened the hidden doors of Moria, killed a Balrog (!), healed the king of Rohan from Saruman's spells, contested the might of the Nazgul on Weathertop, repelled the Nazgul on the Pelennor in rescuing Faramir and his troops, added to the destructive power of the flood of Bruinen, and broke the power of Saruman. That is a lot of things he did, other than talking.
@@dandiehm8414
Yes but I’m not sure he was that confident that he could do it.
We see it. I’m not sure that he did. Or that Frodo would be able to succeed.
@@dandiehm8414 All of these are indeed great things, but Gandalf of all people understood that nothing else would matter if the One Ring was not destroyed and Sauron emerged victorious.
@@Lennis01 That was not the point I was making. I was responding to the Original poster who said " but he seldom really does anything more than talk to the right people at the right time" He did MUCH more than just talk.
@@dandiehm8414 Technically, Frodo solved and thus opened the hidden doors of Moria, Gandalf was merely the translator who answered Frodo's question of what "Friend" means in Elvish ("Mellon") which is actually chalking up another point to precisely what @Belligerent_Herald was trying to say, "talk to the right people at the right time" ;)
Woah, this blew my mind! Melian was the 6th member of the Istari and possibly their original leader? Amazing!
I think this also leans into the idea that Gandalf was initially hesitant and afraid of returning. Perhaps he didn't want to project a show of force as they had before. It could also be that, without that direct power, he felt like he would be weaker than Sauron. Interesting stuff!
Weaker than Sauron? Allow me to direct your thoughts to a passage often overlooked.
Upon the return of Gandalf, there's a brief interaction between (I think) Aragorn and Gandalf, which ends with the acknowledgement "I am Gandalf the white, but black is mightier still..."
He says this, I believe, because he's acknowledging that Sauron is indeed much more mighty than he, Olorin is. And while Gandalf might be wiser, he knows that Sauron is mightier. Much in the same way as Melkor was the mightiest of the Valar...
Yep. Going back into battle locked in elderly mortal form with a small percentage of your power and memories is far different then going back at full strength. Truly an Unconventional Warfare mission.
@@Raz.C Gandalf the White isn't as powerful as the unrestricted Olorin was. Indeed he is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, but not on the same level as he was as Olorin
@@igorlopes7589
Here's the thing, though...
A common theme running through the annals of Middle Earth, is that things are at their best when they are still new. The mightiest of the Elves were those who either awoke at Cuiviennen, or who were only a few generations removed. Feanor is a great case-study. He was the greatest in skill of mind and of arms. His sons were lesser, but still accounted among the mightiest. His grandsons were of negligible might, when compared with the Calaquendi (since they were all Moriquendi, having been born and raised in Beleriand). Nevertheless, they still outclassed all the Avari.
It was the same, only more salient, with the Edain and Numenoreans. Hador and Hurin, Tuor and Turin... They were the absolute pinnacle of Humanity. They resisted adversity such as no other humans had known and yet they still thrived!! And when the Valar granted an extended life span to the Numenoreans, it was the first generation that lived longest, with each subsequent generation being 'lesser' than those before it.
There are still exceptions, here and there, such as Aragorn, whose deeds, wisdom and might exceeded all of his forebearers up to and including Elendil. Or Faramir, who- as Tolkien writes- "by some trick of the bloodlines, the blood of the Westernesse ran almost true in his veins."
For the most part, though, the general trend of all living things in Middle Earth is towards decay. It is very rare for an individual to overcome this entropic trend. I suspect that due to his constant practice and adaptation, Sauron became mightier with the passage of time, while Gandalf did not. When Gandalf faced the Balrog for the first time, not knowing what it was, as it was on the other side of a door, he tells Aragorn "I have never faced such a challenge! It nearly broke me!" And this wasn't a life-and-death struggle, but rather a struggle over the status of a door; Open or closed. Sauron, on the other hand had faced innumerable such challenges. Some during the First Age, some in the Second and some also in the Third age of the world. THIS is why I believe that Sauron was at his best and striving to always be better. Gandalf was undoubtedly the wiser, having dedicated most of his time in Lorien (Valinor) to understanding things. However, even if he might have once been mightier than Sauron, he never practiced his skill in might of arms and so it decayed. That's why a Balrog was able to kill him. Furthermore, his mandate wasn't to lead men (and elves and dwarves, etc), but rather to inspire them...
Anyway, for all those reasons (as well as the ones I forgot to include), I'm inclined to maintain my position. I still believe that Sauron was mightier than Gandalf. I've yet to hear any evidence that would make me think otherwise. Again, as Gandalf himself said "I am Gandalf the White, now. And White is mightier than Grey, but Black is mightier still!"
@@Raz.C I am not trying to claim Gandalf the White is stronger than Sauron. I was just talking that Olorin was more powerful than Gandalf the White, because Olorin wasn't restricted. Also, the Numenoreans only started to live less than the previous generations once they started to turn against the Valar in their hearts
Oh thank you, Robert-I appreciate your elucidation of The Guardians, and I too like the idea that Melian already knew Thingol before enchanting him, and that Cirdan knew Gandalf from before. It is a lovely thought.
Beautiful take on Círdan remembering Gandalf. Fantastic video, thank you!
I always interpreted that line about past mistakes being about how they destroyed the continent by getting involved in the 1st Age.
This
I like the idea I've seen elsewhere that the Istari returned to Valinor after their first task but it went so unbelievably awfully that they were like, "Just wipe our memories, Manwë, that absolutely sucked"
Manwë puts down his rule book and looks up, scowling. "Fine, you can try again," he says, "but I'm nerfing you all this time. You don't remember anything and almost all your power is locked away and can only be accessed through a stick. No, not any stick, it has to be a special stick. You know what, for that quip I'm gonna make you all old men. Also, you get new names."
@@StarkRGI look forward to your comedy parody series 😂
@@StarkRG Looool ye.
Even Ged from Earthsea could just make a staff from a blade of grass.
Poor Gandalf has that one specific staff for each version of himself (Grey/White) and that's it.
These videos have been an absolute godsend since I started listening to the Silmarillion. Helping me make sense of what has to be one of the deepest rabbit holes I’ve ever stumbled into. Thank you!
Dude this blew my mind. I mean I read the nature of middle earth, but I never connected the dots like this.
If I see your tag line, I always watch and listen. Thank you so much for being true to Tolkien.
This may be the first Middle-Earth video I’ve listened from you and I really appreciate all the nuance that’s picked up here, there’s no singular meaning or outcome in Tolkien’s work and it’s all explained in full. I normally listen to the Game of Thrones videos but I will plunge into the Middle-Earth videos as well!
11:49 this line with Sir Ians/Gandalfs face beaming from the screen gave me serious warm fuzzies.
'Yeek, Yeek' said Little Fuzzy! From H.Beam Piper's 'Fuzzy book's.
There's a fascinating parallel, here. In _The_ _Prince_ Niccolò Machiavelli divides rulers into "Lions" and "Foxes". Lions rule by force and power, while foxes rule by cunning and persuasion. It's interesting how Tolkien demonstrates that the Maiar coming as "Lions" doesn't get the desired result out of the elves, so he switches them to "Fox" advisors in the form of old men to accomplish their task. I wonder if Tolkien read Machiavelli?
Machiavelli read Tolkien 😂
I’d like to say that the only one to actually have the most good done in LOTR was Gandalf, who acted the most like a Lion of the group when they came back, everyone else failed in their missions in one way or the other. But he also was the most diplomatic as well, he cared about the little and small, along with the mighty, he was very balanced and wise in his judgement.
@@TheUltimegaMannot exactly, as the grey gandalf refused to have a power base unlike saruman and radagast
Beautifully done! Thank you! A Tolkien fan for over half a century, and you showed me something new and true!
This has revolutionized my understanding of LOTR. Thank you!
I had a faint memory of Olorin visiting middle earth really early on but forgot the context and source, and Melian hanging with the Eldar at Cuiviennan blew my mind.
This also brought a new perspective on the controversy over ROP bringing in all the Istari to ME earlier than expected, even if it’s different than as written.
The lore of Middle-Earth can be so beautiful. Though I have not read the various books and engaged with the world in so long I am always drawn back to it's lore and am reminded why it entranced me so many years ago. Thank you for the video.
Every video is a masterclass in content and presentation ... best Tolkien channel on YT!
Wow! This would explain so many elements in the lore. Thank you, Robert!
This is fascinating. I'd always read that passage about the Valar wishing to amend their past errors was referring to the destruction of Beleriand, but this is fascinating new context for it!
I seriously thought that the reason The Wizards were nerfed was because of the mistake of the Valar and Maiar attacking Morgoth at the end of First Age because their power was so great it destroyed Beleriand and sunk it to the sea.
That's definitely part of the reason. It's all got to do with how non-interventionist the Ainur are, because the few times they do try to help out the Eldar, only Ulmo succeeds with little collateral damage while the rest of them blow shit up and make some of the survivors grow distrustful. Even Melian, who found a good balance between actively interfering and letting the elves make their own decisions, was unheeded many many times. Basically if you're a Vala or a Maia there'll always be someone who doubts you lol
Wow. For me this answers every lingering question I've had about LOTR since I was a kid, some 30 years ago. Crazy we can still learn more.
Thanks for that IDG.
Amazing for it to be over a century since Tolkien started writing this stuff down and we are still getting new lore!
As that same Old Enemy has risen yet again from the East
A fascinating bit that lends much to what were otherwise a few niggling doubts I had had (Cirdan's choice to give Narya to Gandalf/Olorin, for example). Thank you for digging this up!
love the artwork at 5:40 ... it is now my head canon that one of the blue wizards was Willie Nelson
Saruman's compulsion to leave is so strong and is true form that it lasted through generations.
Excellent video, how cool to see the art we commissioned for the Lord of the ring game that we podcast about displayed so prominently in your thumbnail!! Ralph is a wonderful artist
Great story. Like you said, it fills in a lot of gaps.
I always feel sorry for Radagst the Brown though. He did help Gandalf in his mission, but is seldom labeled a "success" when it comes to the mission of the Istari. Whatever happened to him after the fall of Sauron? I suspect he stayed in Middle Earth with his beloved animals.
Maybe that can be one of your next episodes. 🤔
I'm pretty sure Robert said in another video that, after calling on the Eagles, Radagast leaves the narrative entirely. The last we ever hear of him was "Our Elven hunters found his home, but could not track him."
I think Radagast essentially lost sight of his Greater Purpose, devoting himself to the plants and animals of Middle Earth, losing the yearning for Aman, and just...faded, the same way the Elves who remained in Middle Earth did, "Doomed to forget and be forgotten," in Galadriel's words.
@@bluesbest1 Most likely, but I wonder if there was any further mention of him in Tolkien's letters. 🤔
@@thomashauguel6811 All I'm aware of is that Tolkien said at one point that Gandalf was the only Wizard who completed his mission and returned home. I'm pretty sure Robert also remarked on that. Can't remember what he said about it, though.
Thanks again for your insightful content - I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge of this beautiful world and all it's characters!
This is absolutely fantastic! Thank you.
That is something I actually didn't know. Thank you!
Great video and well researched! Fascinating to ponder!
You have this great story telling voice (a big reason I love your channel). So you can imagine how much I LOLed when you so casually explained how all the wizards just simply forgot about their first mission.
Great video! As always, I appreciate you for making these videos. Cheers!
Could you argue that gandalf the white was a change in tactic also. His return as a more General and combat focused figure was a harkening to the first mission.
Gandalf went home, drank 3 liters of coffee, returned to Middle Earth more buzzed than a forest of angry bees, and finished the mission in 3 weeks with more energy than he had for the entire 2,000 years or so that he'd been in Middle Earth already.
@@bluesbest1he also changed clothes as in Equilibrium, from dark to white.
A completely new story to me. Amazing! Loved it!
I have the Nature Of Middle Earth book. Wow is it detailed! The various accounts of time according to the Valar, Elves and Mortal Men. How many years an Elf has lived in comparison to their age etc. This book was quite an undertaking for sure.
Absolutely beautifully assembled and delivered. Thank you for your work. I thoroughly enjoy it.
Long story short, the first Maiar expedition acted like pushy, intimidating jerks and it pissed off the elves causing problems. The Valar took notes and told them to return but "Be nice this time!" 🧙♂️
Robert, you can't upload a video with such a compelling title and not expect me to drop everything to click it
And how about those gorgeous thumbnails? This channel's are so tasteful and compelling
@@ThommyofThenn I've been a fan for a long time. Absolutely my favorite TH-cam channel
@@cebolaameaca nice. I've been watching maybe a year or two now. One of those very special channels that basically post nothing but incredibly high quality stuff.
@@cebolaameaca My favourite fantasy channel for a good number of years now too! John never disappoints with both substance and style.
The audacity
I feel like there are some parallels here to Q in Star Trek TNG. When Q appears and forces his power on the crew, he is met with largely resistance and opposition. However, his most important intervention - introducing the Federation to the Borg - is mainly hands off. Aside from transporting the Enterprise in the first place, Q is absent most of the encounter. It’s only when Picard accepts his hubristic notion, of being able to meet any challenge when it comes, that he sends the ship back. Even the act of pushing and pulling the Enterprise could be analogous to Gandalf’s manipulation of the Dwarves to deal with Smaug; he pushes the Dwarves (& Bilbo) into an adventure driven a lot by their own choices. Only once at the Lonely Mountain do the Dwarves seriously start to consider the question of how to deal with the dragon. Bard’s lethal arrow shot comes from covert information first gathered by Bilbo - this echoes Worf’s observation that where blunt strength cannot succeed, one must use guile. I doubt there is a direct link between the acts of Gandalf and the Q/Borg storyline, but it was one of the first things that came to mind.
The two Blue Wizards were sent to Middle Earth in the Second Age, to the East to stir up rebellion against Sauron. Saruman, Gandalf & Rhadagast came to Middle Earth in the Third Age! The two Blue Wizards also went again to Middle Earth, the East again, but earlier again than the other 3!
During the War of the Valar against Morgoth to protect the Elves, yes, those Maia who became the Istari went as part of the host of the Valar. In their full splendor!
The Blue Wizard arrived at the same time as did the other 3. There is no evidence that the Istari existed in Middle Earth before 1000 of The Third Age.
Perhaps the earlier mission of the Blue Wizards was a trial run of sorts? The Valar dipping their toe in to see if success was even possible with such diminished forms, or something?
@@bluesbest1 Man, who knows at this point ? You have the canon...but then is the canon actually the canon when every note Tolkien ever wrote that didn't make it into canon is being published in different ominbus are maybe or maybe not conscidered canon ?
@@thecollector6746 You'd think that Death of the Author would apply to an author that's literally dead, and yet we're still getting changes to canon by the author's hand 50 years later.
Of course, because it's Tolkien, a lot of us accept it anyway because he's just that good an author.
@@thecollector6746 except for Tolkien changing his mind and detailing that?
This was lovely, wholesome, and surprisingly satisfying. Thank you.
I knew about their earlier mission from The Nature of Middle-earth but hadn't thought about the implications of it - Melian and Thingol becoming smitten with each other, why Gandalf had a love for the Elves, the reason Cirdan recognized Gandalf when he arrived in the Third Age. Great insights!
Oh fascinating. So Melian was the original leader of the Istari.
Very good info. First time I’d heard details about the earlier mission, but it fits so nicely
I love hearing you break down the stories and facts and non-facts. In fact you could write fanfiction and even if you didn't tell it was yours I'd keep listening and probably wouldn't notice.
These videos calm me down and put perspective into play to my thoughts.
This is among the best synopses of the Tolkien Legendarium I have ever seen or heard. Thank you so much for your content.
Brilliant - that makes so much sense.
excellent video. this narrative not only "fits", to me it makes things seem very complete.
Wow. This was great, thank you Robert
One of your most beautiful videos yet. Bravo!
So now I gots ta read my copy of The Nature of Middle Earth that's been sitting on my shelf for a year. Thank you for the video!
Please consider doing longer form lore videos! I'd love a good 45 min video to fall asleep to 🙏
In Deep Geek Audio Book of Lord of the Rings.
Tolkien sleep videos YES
This video truly had me in deep geek!
Ça là, c’était une capsule très intéressante 😮😊
Merci pour cet information….
Je m’attendais pas à savoir/apprendre tout ça là, mais … merci!😊
Allons-Y Alonzo! Nous allons à la montagne. nous n'oublierons pas, nous ne vous pardonnerons pas.
Vous êtes sans nom, sans visage et sans forme ! Retourne dans le vide d'où tu es sorti!
Flottez sur une rivière pour toujours et à jamais jusqu'à ce que vous soyez dissous dans les ténèbres pour l'éternité.
In Deep Geek is really cranking out fantastic content. Love your stuff, so happy with how much you produce
Absolutely amazing commentary! As deep as it gets.
Great episode. One small nit pic. My interpretation is that fate (aka eru) brought Thingol and Melian together, not her machinations. She was "trapped" as well as he.
Unbelievable! I didn't know any of this! Amazing content as always!
This was a truly fascinating video. I think you could spend a lifetime studying Middle Earth and still not reach the bottom of it.
I'm sure that the "errors of old" refer to the Valar messing things up by intervening with their full powers. But it's fun to interpret this in other ways.
Great videos, absolutely love your explanations of LOTR.
Wow. I didn't know of an earlier mission that that Astari had been sent on by the Valar.
Very good and thoughtful and nicely done video!!
Thanks so much for this!
Thank you for showing me this.
Its mindboogling to me, that after such a long time you stilm produce such relevant and good designed content regarding LOTR, i absolutely love it!
I had gathered from things mentioned in the LOTR, the appendices of the LOTR, and somethings said in “The Silmarillion” that the Istari had been there before. There's something Gandalf said that made it sound as though he had been in Middle Earth since the Second Age. The timeline in the appendices I thought indicated that Sauron’s first attempt to conquer Middle Earth ended the Second Age and that the Third Age began with Sauron’s first defeat. Maybe I misinterpreted things.
Thank you indeed for this excellent walkthrough! I seldom find something about Tolkien on TH-cam that I didn't know or had forgotten, and I relish the opportunity when I do. This is really deep lore, would perhaps be fit for us to cast into song!
That was a great video! You keep bringing up surprising topic!
Well done as ever.
Do you see what you've done here? .All the comments and thoughtful conversations. What a rad community you've built! Congrats Man
Very well put together, amazing job.
That final summation puts an amazing and deep denouement on the final chapter of the Lord of the Rings. Wow.
Another fantastic video. Thank you.
Awesome video Robert, thank you.
Bravo! on many of these recent analyses. I haven't always agreed with all of the analyses on this channel - really only a couple of the older ones - these latest have been excellent summaries and very interesting and thought provoking. Thank you for these.
Another LOTR upload !!
We thank you Robert !!
Your videos on this and world of ice and fire are phenomenal!’n
I was scrolling and read the thumbnail as "Gandalf's forgotten first mission to the middle-east".
Thank you! 🙂
Excellent video. I wasn't aware of this.
The artwork is beautiful.
What a beautifull painting!
Great stuff. I'd love to see one of these on Angmar.
Always phenomenal content
I'm sure you hear this often, but you're a Superb Storyteller. Great video.
Love this channel, best explanations and interpretations
Amazing video, in every respect. Well done!
Gandalf is like that one NPC who never dies , knows everything about every mission , saves you more than you can remember and makes you feel like a side character but still get hyped every time he shows up . Cause you know it's going to be a blast.
Manwe: So guys we need volunteers to go stop Sauron
Melian: I'll go!
Manwe: ... anyone ... else?
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
I'm confused by this. Melian never went to stop Sauron.
@dandiehm8414 I read OP’s comment as joking that they didn’t let Melian go because they didn’t want her seducing another hot piece of elf
Great video as usual.
I appreciate this deeper lore.
Very interesting. I vaguely remembered that line about sending the Istari to amend past mistakes, but I'd always thought it mostly referred to the Valar directly intervening at the end of the War of Wrath (which wrecked half a continent), or their attempts to protect the elves from Morgoth by bringing them all to Valinor. I didn't know about the additional Tolkein material, but that definitely adds some more depth to what I'd originally thought the story contained. The theme of the Istari's mission was clearly always "help the people of Middle-Earth help themselves", rather than trying to compel them to it by force or through over-awing them. It makes sense that there would be some additional details as to how the Valar had tried the other approach before and seen it fail.
Great video, I am quite familiar with all these topics but you weave a good tale out of the legendarium.
The revelation that the future Istari had gone to Middle-Earth in the 1st Age to protect the Elves along with Melian was one of the most fascinating parts of "The Nature of Middle-Earth." However, I don't know that in the end the Elves had that much of a choice about leaving Middle-Earth. Those who chose to remain would eventually fade to weak, disembodied spirits. Middle-Earth was not intended to be their final home.
Just as the great lands are not the final home of men.
wait the idea that Cirdan remembered Gandalf when he returned but Gandalf doesn't is such a bittersweet idea I want to cry
I love me some Carl Hostetter. He's so kind to those with questions and full of good humility. Very smart. Very thorough. Plus, he works at NASA. Unless he's retired. That's as close to Varda, Elentari, as one gets these days.
Never knew this stuff! Guess we’re always discovering new parts of the legendarium, huh?
Not really. Much if this was in the Silmarillion which has been out for a couple decades. Unfinished Tales was recent, but still a few years old.
@@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt The Silmarillion came out in 1977 - almost 50 years ago. Unfinished Tales came out in 1980, so, not really recent.