@@ryankelly7070support players are usually whining about how you're impossible to keep alive, yet convinced you're not being healed. but funny streamer say support always good so easy if I lose u fault 🦍🦍🐵🐵
Even though I’m a support player, immortal backlines are one of the most infuriating things in the game. Everyone’s agency falls off a cliff unless one of the immortal supports makes an irredeemable mistake. The specific one that drives me crazy is Kiri LW, between the 2 of them there are 4 “no death” buttons they can press at any moment even if they, or someone on their team, does everything wrong.
How are you getting 3 no death buttons. I only count 3 between the 2 in grip, suzu, and tp. Petal is still extremely punishable. I wouldn't call it a no death button anymore then any other movement ability.
@bradmiles1984 petal platform requires specific heroes/situations to punish. Petal platform plus dash starts the passive healing in a lot of situations. Plus tree. So tp, grip, suzu, platform and dash, plus potentially tree, plus potentially kiri ult which makes all the cooldowns go down faster. Supports actually supporting each other is almost impossible to fight.
Bro LW...the sensation of almost securing a kill on someone who overextended and deserved to be punished just to suddenly gettting a pat in the shoulder because a support has a "fix mistakes" ability is infuriating
Yes on kiri no on lw lmao , lw is such ass he's so big and easy to hit I very very rarely see him on ladder. Maybe my experience is just different to everyone else
In today's news: Overwatch support player makes a presentation on 2 > 1. All their fellow support players on Reddit and Twitter applauded their mathematical genius.
@@LaughingBox2not only that, but he said it was stronger than ALL of the support cooldowns 😭 it’s insane how braindead some people are that they think biotic field is stronger than suzu, immortality field, life grip, regen burst, sleep, anti nade, etc.
And interestingly, he also arrived to the same conclusion as Sam but from a different perspective. Spilo's point being more on the fundamental approach of "support will not make you climb by default, but if you genuinely have a better skillset than your rank, support will allow you to boost higher off of that skill disparity than any of the other roles" - which in turn means more support players end up climbing relative to dps and tank players' skillsets of similar ranks.
I think some supports get just pampered. I started mostly playing Zen back in the dive meta back before brig got released and it was not easy, but with a lot of the heroes that got released including Moira, Brig, Bap, Kiriko and Lifeweaver, it's almost impossible to punish their mistakes, be it bad positioning, bad target priority or misusing abilities. The big issue coming from this is that a lot of supports are just SO god damn survivable while having the most impactful abilities, that lack any form of skill expression, especially tp and suzu, lifegrip and dash and bap's 3 healthbars. Adding onto that the heavy reliance of tanks for healing and DPS to get kills set up by their Supports and you got a recipe for disaster, where you either have the better supports or lose. We need to give Supports abilities with skill expression and a need to make a decision between using it offensively or defensively while most importantly not being able to shut down ultimates for free.
Ana is one of the very few characters in the support role that actually require skill and the guy in the video looks like a low-mid diamond player at best and he’s t500 which he shouldn’t be. Support players will continue to cry saying their role is weak and as a support player I just want to tell them to shut up already. Being “valuable” on support is literally, don’t die and heal the team, every other role has to hope their supports know what the fuck is going on but their brains are so damn small and they just straight up don’t understand basic mechanics most of the time and it’s insane
So basically we need more supports like Ana, where the abilities have defensive and offensive uses while the hero also has a clear weakeness that can be used by the enemy. Yet for some reason Ana is under critisism while not having any of these issues like Kiri or Bap. I just don't get it.
@@InvaderD0cmy only real issue is, from a tank standpoint, I absolutely despise beating the shit out of the enemy tank only for the enemy Ana to press a single E key and invalidate it all, while also canceling any incoming healing for me. By pressing one key on their keyboard, they have both invalidated my work while also managing to put me on the back foot... She's no where near as egregious as almost the entire rest of the support cast, but she still has some issues that tilt the game in a negative way.
If nade could only apply one at a time based on who it hit first I think it would be much better That or 6v6 again so another tank could help mitigate shit
@@InvaderD0c anas abilities control the meta. heroes are balanced around anas nade, sleep and nano. even if shes one of the few supports to actually use skill her existence making or breaking it for a lot of heroes is just unfun
I think the more easy-to-understand phrasing is this: Support have the easiest time overriding or negating an otherwise objective skill gap seen on the other roles in a match. If you're an avg support and have an avg tank, even if the enemy tank is superior to yours, and the enemy supports are equal to you, you're still getting equal value even though objectively on paper you should be losing that fight - because you as an average support can negate more skill gap potential among the other roles. This does go both ways, which is the point that value negation on support is easier than any other role, and value gain is also easier. If you are, objectively, the best player in your lobby - then your biggest potential to win that match is if you're on support. Effective value consistency from skill gap is where the focus should be. A support skill gap will be much more consistent in securing you positive winrate, than a skill gap on tank or on dps. And that's why it's easier to rank up on support IF you are a better-than-average player relative to your rank. Aka IF you deserve to rank up relative to the other players within your role at your current rank, then Support is going to be the easiest one to do this from. And because support baseline value is so easy, it's relatively difficult to derank or be the reason your team is getting gapped. This means support players tend to just float relative to their overall team performance, whereas tank and dps tend to float relative to their overall supports' performance (when everyone is objectively equally skilled). TLDR; IF you're actually better than your rank, objectively - then Support is the easiest role to climb with. If you're actually worse than your rank, objectively - then Support is the easiest role to maintain SR with. That's why so many supports end up boosting to high ranks and then just floating around for a long time, because their base means of obtaining value is so easy compared to other ranks, so they don't have to be equal to other supports to get the same baseline value that still exceeds what the other roles can do with superior skill application.
The hard reality of the “math debate” is that support mains are worse overall Overwatch players that players of their same rank, so when dps and tank mains go to offrole they end up climbing higher on support because they have better game understanding than support players
The reality of that is, support isn't boosted because it's overpowered, it's boosted because bad players play support. Plat 3 and below supports are probably all worse than high silver dps.
There's not really a meaningful distinction between support kits being overpowered and support players being bad. I think they refer to the same issue. Bad players will be more apt to choose support as their preferred role because it's easier to get value. Why is it easier to get value? Because the support kits are bloated and overpowered. Each one causes the other circularly. In fact, I believe the support kits being overpowered is what is keeping support players less skilled. There's less pressure on them to improve. It's really a shame. In the end, I think the only thing worth discussing is the overpowered kits, because it's the only thing the OW devs can directly modify.
Its comical that he gives opinions on ana's nade while showing gameplay of him completely wasting it, just yeeting it away AS AN ILIARI WAS ABOUT TO SHOOT THE SUN TO HIS FACE 16:00. And overall, just throwing it randomly at walls and floors throughout the video, disregarding both teammates, enemies, and his survival. Out of all the nonsensical, biased, cherry-picked arguments, talking about the ana nade was one exclusion he could have made... ...but no, lets continue to talk out of our ass. This guy's video are proof of how the crutches supp gives players impact their understanding of the game. Its proof supp CAN (not 100% of the time luckily) gaslight players into thinking they're good while blinding them of their mistakes, chaining them forever in this delusional mental state, where every issue teammates bring up to them is false, and everyone is hating on them. Pretty pitiful
Remember, supports are only in the game so that DPS players can have fun with no accountability. I agree that support abilities are overpowered in some ways, but they have to be to make up for the fact that no one wants to play a role that is only there to enable other players to have fun. It needs to be a team deathmatch style FPS for the majority of players to be satisfied. Team based/objective based games don't suit the majority of players who just want to kill, respawn, repeat with no care for anyone else.
i think anaterasu kinda has a point: if the enemy supports have the same kit as you, then you still have to play better than them and make use of your broken kit better than they do. because power is relative, and while as support you're more impactful as a dps player, you're not more impactful than the other support players (with exception, which I'll shortly go into). that said, the real question is: how hard is it to become the better support player? i think there's a fair argument to be made that dps and tank tend to appeal to very hardcore competitive players while support appeals to more casual players (not always, but sometimes). being an easier role is part of that; it's scary to go play dps and get widow diffed for 20 minutes, but if you pick support you can still contribute even if you're not playing well at that moment. this is evident in queue times; support queues are super long, which indicates there are more people (probably more casual players) queuing support. it's similar to the early ow2 boosting problem. when there's a lot of new people playing the game, they're not going to be as skilled and they're going to fill up the lower ranks of the game, artificially boosting the hardcore players who already have a baseline understanding of overwatch. if you're a hardcore overwatch player, you're going to climb above the masses of people playing lower impact support heroes like moira by just picking kiriko or bap and playing with basic ow2 fundamentals. easy support kits do not directly make it easier to climb on a long-term scale (you will eventually stabilize to the rank you "deserve"), but i think there's something to be said about the state of support being simultaneously appealing to a large mass of casual players while also being easy to carry on by just picking the right hero.
Yes but you ignore the fact that throughout the game you are not usually interacting with the enemy supports but rather the enemy dps and tank who you are literally designed to deny their ability to do their job. And because of this you have everything you need to never lose
@t_dappa I'm not ignoring that supports interact with dps and tanks at all. i play mostly dps and i fully understand the feeling of having to punch through 2 immortalities/pulls and having your supports complain dps diff while they do jack shit on lucio or mercy. but it's also up to the enemy supports to similarly deny your dps and tank value. if BOTH teams supports are abusing their kits, then at a certain point one of them still has to lose. a powerful role that has a large impact on the game makes it easier to carry, but at the end of the day you can only carry up to your relative skill level, which is separate from the issue of boosting (which is when you're getting value past your relative skill level). you can argue that if you play support better than x% of support players then you will consistently win games and climb to your "deserved rank" faster than dps and tank which often feel cosmetic, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to be producing value at the xth%tile for supports to reach that rank. that said, i agree that it's easier to climb on support because many support players don't maximize their value by playing weaker/more. if every support player was good at their job then the ranked grind would be just as competitive as dps and tank grinds, but id say there are so many people who play support and don't go the strong carries like kiri and bap, or who do play them but don't know how to use their abilties at all. because of that, having even a basic understanding of ow fundamentals (which id argue tank and dps roles force you to learn faster) puts you way ahead of the majority of the playerbase. and THAT'S why support is easy to climb with (when other roles are strong you don't see as much "boosting"). i think role queue ranked is kinda weird because you have different ranks and distributions for different roles, which reflects your relative skill to people in that role and not the entire overwatch community. i think it's 100% reasonable to say that a gm kiri player is not the same caliber as a gm genji player, as they're basically playing different games with different playerbases. support is arguably the easiest one to place high in because of it having a large population and a lot of more casual players. and part of that is because they have mechanically forgiving kits, but that's the key middle step to explain why the role is boosted, but it's not as simple as just "it's the carry role". because even among the carries there's going to be people who are better and worse at carrying. this got kinda ranty but im just trying to get across that i agree support is broken, a carry role, and the easiest to grind to a high ranked percentile. but i think the reasons why that's true are more nuanced than just "you can carry". because while amaterasu's points are flawed and i think samito is right (and I'm sure that instinctively he knows why he's right), the way the points are broken down in this video do not fully explain his reasoning and i want people to be able to discuss support balance with full nuance.
@@t_dappa you didn't understood his point. He is saying that is balanced. Balanced as a whole. Tank is balanced? and always will be balanced, even thought it has 40000 hp and 2000 damage or 1 hp -5 damage, as both teams will have the same god/waste of air. The problem is that it wont have balanced interactions with the rest of the players. a super duper tank would instakill everyone and the fights just will be tank vs tank with everyone dead. If tank is super ultra weak then it plays wont matter and it will be a 4v4. and that would be unfun for everyone.
I am dps player but for the last 6 month i have been playing support because : 1- its easy compared to other role 2-fun to play 3-i can carry with high dmg and high healing and immortality Am wrong?
I'm with you. I prefer Tank and DPS but Tank is just about getting slapped around and DPS feels like Supports undo a lot of good plays by just existing. I want to have fun and Support's so busted that I have a good time and win games.
@@bellsprout7748I've been playing more tank lately cause I have a new friend coming into the game and tank is able to carry the games the easiest. I stomp most games on tank with 1 person on my team who's never played an FPS before overwatch. Tank players are honestly just bad and dumb. Is it hard to play tank? Yes, but does it feel bad? Not really. It feels bad when you have 4 brain dead team mates but other than the rare games where EVERYONE is legit terrible it's still pretty easy to carry and climb as tank. I'm a support main since OW1 and have like 90% wr on my tanks this season maining Reinhardt, DVA and Ramm
I think you're phrasing your point wrong. "Support is the easiest to rank up on" is not what you really mean. What you REALLY mean is "When considering your individual skill level, your rank on support will be higher than other roles due to support being easier to use your skill with." or maybe "your support rank, when played an equal amount as the other roles, will be highest due to more efficient individual player skill use because of game balance."
Samito is right. I mained brig since I started playing. I’m gold in support, but low bronze in dps this season. I don’t even play tank because it sucks.
Also worth noting that when Samito says “Supports can contribute the most to the game at the lowest amount of skill” - true, but the same is still true as we get higher up, which is way way more important when considering rank factor. If same skill level players can do more on support, then their support rank will be higher than say their DPS rank, as their similar skill level can contribute even more to the game.
Playing at mid gm level I see a lot of support players being gm in only supports but when I look at the tanks and dps they are gm in every role. It’s funny because when supports get nerfed they complain the most. They complain to devs to make the game easier for them. It’s very annoying that on dps or tank you can’t get kills because of burst healing and imorts and get out of jail free abilities. They made supports so hard to dive just because they didn’t have to skill to position or hit their shots correctly. They say that they need to defend themselves when really it’s up to your team to keep you alive. Now you just out heal or tp away. On dps I have to try so hard to secure a kill cuz everyone just gets healed to full in an instant. Or I have to try and get a kill before the imort comes out. It’s so obvious that the sup abilities are so easy to use and get value. It’s crazy they don’t see it.
I actually like his Sojourn with Mercy pocket example. And yes I do think the Mercy player IS boosting the Sojourn player. But that is not because the Mercy player is good at the game and so skilled, but rather because they pick a hero that can get insane value by standing behind a wall and holding a single button. The Sojourn player is the one that has to work hard mechanically, think about what angle to play, who to shoot etc. And the reason he can play more aggressive and one shot so easily is the Mercy player chilling behind the corner holding one of 2 button, can often resurrect the Sojourn player if he did a mistake or got diffed, and flies away if anything goes wrong. And before anyone calls me a salty dps player, I barely play Overwatch anymore and my most played role is support.
I love the way Sam states his arguments, always clear and concise, no confusion on what he's trying to get across, and he uses plain and simple logic, the goat fr
I mean that's to be expected with specialist characters, I quit playing Mercy cause I felt like I wasn't playing the same game as everyone else and felt I wasn't working on my general overwatch fundamentals.
My sister is a master support player on moira and mercy and she completely lacks game sense. Doesnt even know advanced movement tech as mercy, doesnt understand team comp, doesnt understand which dps is good or bad vs which dps, doesnt understand different tank playstyles, doesnt understand supports should look to deal damage and deny enemy players. She doesnt understand a lot more of the things i mentioned, yet she is a master support player. I love her but its truth.
When I play monkey, I can jump on dps heroes if they’re out of position and have a good chance of taking them out, especially if I place bubble correctly. When I hop on to a support that’s out of position, ik the chances of me getting the kill is so low because they’re gonna have an ability to bail them out. Maybe even two abilities 😭 (I’m a M1 Support)
I’ll rephrase this too. When u play monkey and dive a dps you will most likely get the kill. If you play monkey and dive a supoort, you will most likely get killed 😂
Yes, I have noticed that a lot of support players have an extremely uncanny proficiency in their ability to dps. Like, they are alarmingly good at dealing damage despite being a low rank. You're not worried about the DPS on the enemy team unless they are Hanzo or Ashe. You're worried about the Kiriko, Ana or Baptiste. Because they can do damage and heal at the same time. And some of the damage they can do is on par or absolutely superior to any damage a DPS hero can do. Like you think about that and then realize mercy's rez has a 30s CD and it takes a soul 14 seconds to despawn in OT and you just start to hate this game because of how weenie hut jrs it is. Like you're not even supposed to be able to play DPS unless you are an aimbot or a pro player. id literally rather be playing cod getting aim assisted off the map by some kid on an xbox than putting up with this, that's how bad it is. And I'm an OG overwatch tracer player that still fought the good fight when they added brig in season 10.
hot take but instead of making support feel like other roles, we should make other roles feel like support. every role should feel like it brings huge value and you can play any character.
eh, my experience was I couldn't climb as support, despite playing my heart out and making a bunch of clutch shots and saves as ana couldn't get out of gold. But then I started playing soldier/Mei instead and could finally climb to plat.
To anyone that some how doubts that dps is the hardest role. Play tracer only no swaps regardless of match up for an hour or so each play session. Once you get past the black pill realization that there are some character in this game that get absolutely no value id you can't mechanically excecute to a certain threshold . I do hope you perseverve through the learning pains and discover the joys of learning a hero that rewards you for understanding the game wholistically. Now once you've warmed up your APM for the day on tracer. you can go and get yourself a new peak on support with ez.
As a tracer main with 500+ hours on her that i have basically forced her into every single comp, i can say it is like playing on hard mode...especially because theres dps that also have low skill requirements, you basically have to mechanically diff them, with the difference that unlike supports, they can get punished for getting greedy.
@Kat-xp8zn Tracer requiring more output than most if not all dps is a problem that from expirence seem to hurt way more towards the skill floor of the game, but it's definitely worth it in the end. Cause Tracer doesn't just rely on mechanics. You need a wholistic understanding of the game to do anything on tracer. Playing tracer doesn't just tax your understanding of advance concepts like tracking, Target priority, cooldown usage etc. It also tested your knowledge on aspects of the game that most don't even consider. Such as how your character hitbox looks at any given time. Since this is a first person shooter game very few people conceptualize the games tate outside of what they can see in their crosshairs. But tracer players have to micromanage how much of their character model the enemy can see at any given time at all times. I'm not even like a tracer player or a dps player. I'm more of a no aim, all brains Winston type, so it's painfully obvious to see how much game sense is needed to play tracer. Personally I think every meta rank player can learn a lot from forcing themselves into playing tracer. As a tank main myself once I play a few quickly games on tracer. Once I go back on tank, despite playing a character dva with her huge as hitbox, I'm smoving like I have ultra instincts. Turns out you can do a lot with your WASD keys lol and Tracer's good for teaching that
As a Lucio one trick I will say support is the easiest role to play and rank up, even Lucio the support with the least value is still easier to play and rank up than some dps and tanks and yes 5v5 and role passives are some of the causes of this, the only support that was affected in a negative way by 5v5 and role passives was Lucio every other support just got easier to play.
@@wandregisel6385 Even tho zen can be more oppressive now and has a better defense the lack of one tank allows more heroes to dive so that's probably it, but, still in a 1v1 scenario zen is way better now than before.
@@JumpsOw eh, he's better in 1v1s perhaps (though it should be said in OW1 you could duel a tank if they messed up), but other than that he's worse. And the heroes who want to force that 1v1 against Zen are typically favoured anyway
@@JumpsOwgetting dived isn’t really the problem with zen rn you can outplay and anticipate a dive the problem is if you’re getting any value with zen the enemy team goes sombra and she does so much dps now that you can’t outplay it with zen as long as the sombra has 2 hands(only way you live is if a support is babysitting you)
The king of nuance is back to farm something he doesn't actually care about. Dismisses every take he doesn't agree with and never once acknowledges that Supports have juiced kits since they have multiple responsibilities. You're saying supports being the easiest role doesn't mean it's easy, but then say all supports are boosted. Yessss. I'm here for the minute-to-minute contradictions! My man can't disprove anything I say, but he'll tell me "You're wrong" and feel good.
Stop acting as if mechanical skill is all that matters. Why do I have to bait cooldowns and moves in fighting games and other shooters but you cry about doing the same? If I had the time I'd make a compilation of you contradicting yourself because it's exhausting.
Dafran's test was also criticized for the lack of sample size and for ignoring how popular the DPS role was in OW1. A lot of DPS players lead with their egos in ways that support players aren't known to do, but we're not ready to take a nuanced look at any of this. Everyone is a moron except for Samito and he can't even make a logical argument without lazy over generalizations and absolute language. You said it's not a math issue but you're talking about value, which can be measured mathematically. Don't talk about win rates if you don't want to talk about math.
its crazy the only example he can use against dps is sojourn. He keeps on talking about sojourn when she is way too overpowered and the rest of the dps roster are not even close to her level. That in itself proves that this guy knows what hes talking about
The guy that same is watching is the best example of Plat chat I've ever seen. And with those takes I wonder if he even made it up to Plat before he got boosted
I grinded every role to AT LEAST master on both OW1 and 2. I could have ranked up on support with one hand. It's BY FAR the easiest. Supports could make an infinite number of videos about how it's not the easiest, it'll never convince me that it's even close. DPS/Tank difficulty comes down to game knowledge over « raw aim » I'd say. Paraphrasing a lot obviously, but it's just to say that those 2 roles aren't difficult in the same way hence why even as a tank main it's pretty hard to definitely say Tank is THE hardest role. In my opinion it is, but I can understand why one could think it's DPS. But there's absolutely no fucking way that Support is the most difficult role to play in Overwatch 2. Even in Overwatch 1 it was by far the easiest role. You really have to play nothing but support to think that way.
Honestly, as a LW one trick with more than 180 hours on him (and used to play support back in season 3 of OW2), I so agree. I had a game 2 days ago where my other support ran Mercy. She had 18 deaths in a 20 minute game. She didn't even damage boost much and tried to heal bot but only ended up having 4k heals. Her movement was also garbage. (I'm Diamond in support and plat 1 on tank, been stuck on plat most of OW2 and just hit Masters this season to fall down back to high diamond. Currently in Diamond 1. Maybe a bit boosted but like, I don't duo much and mostly a solo player)
Argument: Someone can counter Anti-Nade by playing well Conclusion: So it doesn't need the skill to use Bro, is exactly because the opponent can counter a badly used Anti-Nade that you have to be good to use effectively. You see, to supports if the ability doesn't give you immediate and uncontestable value by the simple act of using it means that the ability is bad, low skill, and dumb. It doesn't make sense (and it doesn't need to) that he is in the 'us vs them' mentality and he is protecting his side.
I feel like it’s very polarizing. A great example is Lucio. If people just picked Lucio and stayed on heal bot. They would do better than most others. It’s so simple that people can’t comprehend. Then there is a tier above that where ur speed boosting as a group in advantage state. Or speeding out to disengage when in disadvantage state. But for this you need everyone to be kinda on the same wavelength. So therefore he can be (hard throwing useless, boosted heal bot, 3rd dps, or gigabrain) in that order. And even if you explain it, simpletons won’t understand you need to read everyone’s mind.
As a support main, I do find most games hard to win because I would like to help with damage, I sometimes am forced to heal-bot because my teammates positioning or the lack of using natural cover causes them to take all the damage in the server. I could nade and shove my Ana rifle up their backsides and still can't out heal the damage they're taking cause my Hog won't step to left behind a corner. This happens a lot in the metal ranks.
Weird bc I be skyrocketing in dps when you just win the 1v1s. Support I have to constantly check all corners, maintain my ability usage, and be close but far enough from my team to get peel and assist my team. Tank is self explanatory in ow 2 if we’re gonna talk about that
You get peel? I wish I was playing in your games. I’m stuck getting dove by everyone on the enemy team while my teammates are emoting/ picking their noses. A tank that doesn’t know how to do tank things (well besides taking obscene amounts of damage and then blame support for not healing while active finding every angle to make healing them more difficult or just plain impossible.) and dps that have no situational awareness.
I started playing Open Queue whenever I get more than 1 friend to play because we can just run Zarya, a situational tank and a Zen We have like a 80-90% win rate and got both my friends into high gold from low silver in one night going 10-1 It’s just the ACTUAL game in that format. You actually do OVERWATCH things; swapping on the fly, ult management, long team fights where everyone is having fun and not frantically trying to survive Just play open queue fellas; tank the player numbers of role queue until they realize nobody wants to play it; because it ISNT OVERWATCH
When we say a role is "easier to rank up on", what we mean is "there's less distinction between good players and bad players on win-rate, making it easier for bad players in that role to rank up, and harder for good players to rank up." This is implied in the original statement, because it makes no sense to complain about a role being easy to rank up on for good players, because the purpose of ranks is to push good players to higher ranks. So you are totally right that it's the "same question." I don't know why support players are taking it so literally, when it's pretty obvious what the intent of the question is. The issue is supports have enough guaranteed value for players with mid-level skill and understanding to reach top ranks. Also "easy" in this context refers to what you deserve based on your skill. Theoretically you could be a mediocre players who doesn't ever improve, so even if you "grind" and "work hard", you don't automatically deserve a higher rank. Support players may get that confused, and say "Well I worked really hard to get my rank so it wasn't easy for me." That's just not what we mean by easy.
I genuinely think we need to rethink the value of the ranked system classifications Like OW ogs remember literal ELO hell from back in the day; and I really don’t think much has changed…and to an extent the support disparity contributes to the other roles ranking not really mean anything I haven’t touched support since I ranked, ended up in plat 4 or something. But when I play support I just swap to the hero that will let me take over the game; because there’s something that works to limit nearly every comp. Oh, they have a lot of hp? Zen discord. Oh, they are going hard dive? Brig it is! Oh, they have a pharmacy? I’ll just go Ana and pick the open mercy… You can limit the game variance by picking the correct hero to negate what you’re seeing; no other role can do that. Basically all this boils down to me saying that your rank in the other roles is just dependent on the support match. Add on top the typical multiplayer game variance of dogwater teammates, no comms, one tricking in a game designed swapping when you’re not a gaming god, etc. and *literally* your rank it ends up being almost completely out of your hands unless you simply are way better mechanically. The second you go in Open Queue it’s a whole new world, where everyone ive faced is playing GOATS hybrid comps (or have 2 dps and get rolled lol) so then everyone’s contributions *actually* matter.
Isn't the reason why Brig has such a high winrate the fact that she is just used for counterpicking? If the enemy comp is favorable for Brig than pepole will pick her to gain an advantage. If the eneny comp isn't favorable for Brig than pepole won't pick her at all.
Fair enough. I got my ana to GM5/M1 but struggling to get my soldier and zarya past Diamond 4. It is definitely easier to carry by making the right decisions in support, whereas making the right decisions is required to just win in the other two roles (vs carrying).
Even as a Support player, I'm tired of the balance team constantly trying to baby the role by making everything easier to do with less stress and input. Even one of the reasons behind the new healing passive that Tanks and DPS will get is to help ease the stress of healing the team. That mindset is what caused immortality abilities like Suzu, Lamp, and Lifegrip to exist. - Three of the heroes who don't require good aim to function are in the Support role (Moira, Brig, and Mercy) - Kiriko and Bap are some of the best duelists in the game thanks to the fact they have so many get-out-of-jail cards. Kiri's hitbox is also small to make it harder for you to hit her and the size of her projectiles is massive to make it easier for her to hit you. - When Ana was released, her burst heal felt earned because you had to aim and land your shots. All OW2 Supports so far (Kiriko, LW, and Illari) can have their heal methods summed up as "I look in your direction, hold a button and you get burst heals." Not to mention Illari's automatic value pylon. I would like for them to stop trying to make the role easier to play and let your plays feel earned instead of "I pressed a button and I get instant value/save a teammate." Ana is one of the most popular heroes in the game and she's not easiest Support.
The dev team basically said they wanted to make more Mercy-style support heroes last year and sadly, this is the result. It makes me sad because I picked up Ana thanks to ML7 but now, I'm gonna wonder how stupid easy the Space Ranger is gonna be when they come out.
The babying of the support role is because support players like it. People with no fps experience can't play tank because they won't be able to handle the hell that is thrown at tanks. And they can't play dps because landing shots in overwatch is extremely difficult. Support is an easy entry role to get started on where you won't die constantly for having no situational awareness.
@@litfuse8729 first off, watch your tone with me, because I ain't Samito, love... second, I wasn't saying anything bad, I was just saying in general...
@@vexthepichu226 first of all you’re fucking nobody so don’t tell me what to do Secondly, if you weren’t visually impaired you coulda seen that I was talking about winrate and not pickrate. And I’m right, both Torb and Sym do in fact have 55% winrate no matter the rank
Im not sure why you even debate this argument, I guess for views, cuz this argument is non existent, no matter what anyone say’s it is obvious that the support role is the easiest role to rank up on. Now, sure a player could be goated in every single role, that is fine, but a lot of people are only good as support because they mechanically are less talented, but positioning and strategically they may have the upper hand
At the beginning of this season I was m5 on tank and dps and m4 on support I decided to grind to gm5 on all roles It ended up taking 800 games in total I did it in dps first with 80 wins Then I started on support and it the first 60 wins I got to m1 Then I went 5-11 and then for 7 CONSECUTIVE CARDS I went 5-5. Each time going down 10%. Then I went 5-12. I dropped down to masters 5 (lower than I'd started with way more experience playing support now). I got sick of it so I started to play tank and got to gm in 40 wins. Now I'm stuck doing support again, everytime I would go 5-2 I would then go 5-8. I was COMPLETELY hardstuck with no idea how to improve so I decided to dps bap. Which got my winrate up but only my rank a little. When I got the next losers queue and went back down to m4 I nearly gave up. So I decided to 5 stack with my friends who are all around gm strength and I got to gm super easily after that. As arrogant as this sounds, I was a gm support level player before I started the push. Otherwise i wouldn't have solo queued to m1 so quickly. But support for sure has the LEAST impact in the game because it's value comes from forgiving cooldowns. It's easy to use a support cooldown well but it's not easy to use a cooldown to kill someone on dps. My experience from the games I'm playing, is that whichever team has the biggest dps gap loses and you'll be very lucky if ur tank or support can fill the gap. Which is why I think I had more success with dps bap than playing support properly. TLDR is: I personally think support has the least impact because it doesn't win you fights, it just keeps the fight going.
Yeah, everyone's rank got boosted. I used to feel great about being GM/Top 500, but after a while in OW2, I just don't feel that much satisfaction from it.
It’s crazy how Blizzard did role queue, 5v5, and now this upcoming season 9 balance patch that gives everyone the support passive and 250hp is the default, all because they refused to admit their mistakes and rework or vault Brig. Like it’s obvious that aside from making OW2 look like a new game and them theoretically “fixing” tank (lmao), a big reason for 5v5 was they wanted to keep these BS support designs with absurd levels of AOE healing and immortalities and didn’t want to admit their designs were trash so they moved to a TDM style format so stacking these abilities would be less prevalent and broken. Well look at that, Brig has a ~55% in all roles, looks like inspire is still carrying games. Can they just admit they jacked up the game and revert stuff for once? And I’m not talking about minor things like the Mei freeze, although that’s a start. It’s just so depressing we go through all these years of pain just to get a game that’s a shell of its former self to solve and issue that doesn’t even get solved. Classic Blizzard.
Why are you bringing up Brig like she’s overpowered now? She’s good in niche cases now which has been dive. You don’t see Brig against a brawl or poke comp since she gets little value which is proven since she has a low pick rate because again, she’s a niche pick, you’re not default picking her unless it’s a dive meta or you’re a OTP. S9 is literally the first time in OW2 that they’re actually doing changes that makes sense for 5v5. Less healing and more health for the entire cast means that supports have to actually do their job instead of being able to do literally everything and be good at everything.
@@weebtrash3376Did you watch the video? 55% winrate at every rank. Bronze players who don’t even know inspire is an ability are net winning more games than any other support. She’s not even close to the biggest problem in support rn either. My comment is pointing out how she still is a sleeper pick with these stats even when they changed the entire format to mitigate the strengths of inspire and the evidence is that they failed. I agree with you that this S9 patch is them finally making drastic changes they should have when OW2 launched instead of just OW1 with a missing player and worse gameplay. However, I’d withhold your excitement til we play, more class passives like the DPS one is likely going to make DPS gameplay about focusing the tank, tanking will be worse because you’re even more important to focus and everyone has more hp to survive even better, and I don’t even want support to “focus on their job.” Good support players have always been DPS heroes with healing and enabling abilities (aside from Mercy), except back in the day on Lucio/Zen/Ana you actually had to be good at the game. It sounds like you think the game will be better if the larger health pools force supports to heal longer so they can’t just go be better DPS, but frankly that sounds boring. Also, with everyone having a version or the support passive now, good luck being able to have a healbot playstyle when everyone including your Rein is flanking. All that is to say, yeah Brig actually is broken still but not as a meta mainstay, as a sleeper pick. It’s why Ana/Kiri have low winrates because people default to those picks so and then also will swap to them when already losing. As for S9, be wary. I’m excited to try the changes because it’s at least different than this garbage version of OW we have now, but I can easily see this becoming a degenerate meta all over again because they keep making the same mistakes.
Are supports a problem? Yes. 1000%. absolutely. Are tanks the reason supports are a problem. Again. Yes. Absolutely. No amount of healing can fix stupid, so the dev's solution was to give support players literal immortality instead. We wouldn't be in this mess if most of the tank player-base had more than a singular functioning braincell. Am I glad we're here? Hell no. Id give anything for supports to have actual skill expression, but when every other game is a rein charging into a 1v5 and wondering why he's not getting healed I understand why it is the way it is. The devs wont address the fundamental issues of the immortality abilities until tank players can prove they don't need them to stay alive more than a fraction of a second. We. Cannot. **Heal**. Stupid.
i totally agree with samito here, especially the value to effort ratio. personally support is stressful to play for me which makes it harder than dps but i realize that’s not normal
The role difficulties go like this, and if you don’t agree, your wrong. Hardest to easiest to rank up: 1.DPS 2.TANK 3.SUPPORT DPS Is the role that required you to be an all around player, you need to have everything tank has, and support has, while at the same time being mechanically good.
the hardest role to rank up on is probably tank tbh but i think the hardest role to play in general is dps. And my logic on this is because dps has been the least impactful role, outside of a few heroes, for a while so its very easy to provide minimum value on that role and still rank up relatively consistently. DPS player are the best players in the game though and have the easiest time flexing to other roles
I'm a support main but i like watching these vids for moments like this one 33:00 I'm a new ow player who almost instantly picked kiriko cuz i noticed she doesn't need to care about her positioning and just tp (well amongst other other reasons like being a weeb so picking a japanese character yay) But i think it helped me focus on other things to learn like abilities and point and counters and all(idk if there are games similar to ow in that sense but the only thing i could translate from previous games i played was a little bit of movement and aim and even projectile was a new concept for me to learn)
The thing is too, when someone says, "Support skills don't translate to other roles", it's not a slight against the players. It's the ones who greenlight these characters to be used that screw over those support players. Only aim intensive characters like Zenyatta actually have transferrable ability in terms of aim and need for proper positioning. Why learn proper placement skills when you have Kiri teleport or a Bap drone ready to save you from any mistake? Because you don't die, you don't learn. Losing is what makes you learn. Failure is what makes people improve.
The only argument I guess that you could make is that, Since support is the most high impact role, then it is easier to see when one or both supports mess up. Not saying I agree with this sentiment, as I agree that support is overtuned and certain characters need nerfs (immortality abilities) but it’s something to think about.
Well a lot of supports' value is inherit, so its significantly harder to mess up. Support is the only role that can consistently heal not only themselves, but also teammates. They can deal similar damage to dps. They have a much easier time living because of their powerful cds, and living is the most valuable thing you can do. The problem is they're just as deadly as dps, can stop others from dying, and are nigh immortal themselves. The room for error is so much larger for supports that "messing up" has a whole new definition for them. Bad positioning, poor cd usage, lack of awareness, or off timing are all punishable mistakes on their own for tank and dps. A support needs to do multiple of these at once to get punished.
Bro I'm not gonna deny the support role is problematic and out of hand right now but the amount of anti intellectual arguments here is hurting my head. "The math doesn't matter..." It does if we're talking specifically about ranking up in a game that uses literal in-game stats to calculate rank lol. If you want to make the argument support is the most broken role or the most powerful in a vacuum, sure. But your SR is calculated based on your performance, both in terms of wins and in-game stats to a degree, relative to other players of your role. How powerful a role is can be very different from difficulty in ranking up because it depends on what your competition is like. Also making the claim supports do more damage than DPS at 21:29 is wild...yeah the role is now doing more damage than it used to and it's bs it can pump these kind of numbers while healing. But look at the stats...the DPS and Tank roles on average do way more damage than Support across all ranks. You will see games here and there with a support that out performs on damage but come on bro it is not doing more damage on average than the DPS and Tanks. There are problems with the role that need to be addressed but these kind of arguments just seem disingenuous to me and more based on emotion than anything logical. Like you don't have to straight up lie to get your point across...we get it supports are problematic lol but not to the degree you're playing it off as. People in OW need to try some actual unbalanced games for perspective...I swear this community has some of the worst mental of any competitive gaming community I've ever seen.
Rein was a giga chad when it was 6v6. Rein / Zarya was a thing for a reason, because he got Zarya by his side. Now it's 5v5, it's unbalanced and miserable. Playing tank in OW2 is just taking pleasure in suffering.
The walk off mic drop moment is pure Sam. I feel his pain. Supports who want to rule the entire game claim that it's fair because the other team has support? The thing I noticed was he alluded to the Series 9 changes, but I can't wait to see what he thinks about them once people have played with them a few weeks. I'm pretty sure that they're bad for the game, but there are going to be ways they are bad I haven't even thought of yet.
Ana nade used to be a skill reliant cool down but as soon as they added the healing passive you could just chunk nade without almost every worrying about using it on yourself
He's right because the other team has two supports you have the chance to provide just as much impact. Everything you're saying can be applied to the enemy supports.
The whole point of this video is supports taking agency more than other roles. It's not about their team and my team. Supports on both teams take agency while other roles don't but require more skills.
I've never seen someone be so close to the truth without realizing it. If the only thing preventing supports from taking over games are the enemy support... THAT MEANS SUPPORTS HAVE THE MOST IMPACT ON THE GAME AND ARE EASIER TO CLIMB ON. DPS have to worry about diffing the enemy DPS, then pray to all things holy that they have the better supports. Tanks have to gap the enemy tank, then cross their fingers they got the better supports. Supports can make up for a DPS or tank diff... by just playing support. There's less variables to account for, less mistakes you can be punished for, and less reliance on the matchmaking lottery. I was mid gold on every role a few seasons ago. Completely hardstuck. Bad aim, bad awareness, l poor cooldown usage. I hard locked Brig for 20 games and got to Diamond 3.
It probably just depends. Support obviously has the biggest effect on the outcome of a game. So if you’re good, you disproportionately affect the game, so you’ll climb easier than if you’re good and on dps. But if you suck, you disproportionately affect the game in a negative way, so it might be harder to climb bc you can’t get carried as easily lol
Spilo just made the same vid and the thing is u can’t rly be boosted if ur role has the most impact. So support is the easiest to rank up on only if you are good. Ofc there are exceptions like moira bring especially in the lower ranks.
You can. Lemme explain. If your role main function is to mitigate enemy pressure you automatically have a strong near deserved presence in the game. Now if the effort you're putting in to mitigate pressure is none existent then your role is easy, it's the whole "low risk, high reward" idea. It's why pharah mercy and sojourn mercy can be hyper aggressive since if you shoot them mercy doesn't lose any value from committing with blue beam and swapping if they take chip damage. If all supports maximum potential scaled with the amount of effort needed to achieve said potential wasn't so low then supports would be balanced. If you're getting more value for pressing 2 buttons over someone who just committed nearly all their resources it just might mean your character is naturally stronger.
@@gawizard4980 well both the teams have supports so imo they equal out the automatic presence. I wouldn’t say that mitigating pressure is as easy as u seem to point out but i get the idea u r saying cuz just pressing 2 buttons or 1 button to just heal does kinda do it but that usually doesn’t make u good. Making every character scale for the amount effort is what im for, but I wouldn’t say this is what blizzard is going to do ( they prob wont make make changes to mercy or moira, like core design). But there are same kind of things in other roles too like rein and winston dont have to aim but need to have great game knowledge so they scale differently. Mercy does lose value sometimes just pocketing 1 guy cuz that means she isn’t helping the others in her team and makes the tank, other sup and dps vulnerable. That’s why it might be better to play tracer into a phara mercy than some hitscan
When I first saw how Moira worked as a new player I assumed her fade was on like a 30 second cooldown or something to make up for her auto aim and low skill kit. Like an introductory newb character to ease you into the game. I saw it was on an ultra short cooldown and was like WTF. I can just turbo climb with this. And I did. A bronze player boosted myself to Diamond with Moira.
I’m a DPS player, i have been playing overwatch since the first year of release and every single time I hit a career peak in role queue it was always on support. I hit diamond first on support, I got higher on support than Dps in masters and support was the first role I got to gm1 in ow2. The Skillset I learned from playing Dps so much definitely helped but the amount of impact I could make on support was such a night and day difference that most games I was chilling.
I knew nothing about Overwatch, and watched a few vids of this guy, I sorta thought he made sense but even as someone who had never touched the game some of that logic was just *WILD.*
The "nade is no skill because molga lose to it" reminded me of a league of legend game i did where i played trundle vs a riven and when i killed her she started crying and said " i had first blood, 800g over you and ignite and you won by walking toward me. Nice fun character". Somehow she completely forgot that she took 2 tower shot and that the only reason i killed her.
Support hero's can do damage and heal. Generally yes. But Soldier 76 excists, so there is 1 dps that can heal others. Then there is Mei that can heal herself, tracer's recall can fully heal her, and so on. You probably know all the abilities better than me. The point is, your statement is too general, and does not apply to ALL situations. On the other hand you have a support like Zenyetta who cannot heal themselves. Yes Zen is easy to play in terms of healing output. But his positioning is the hardest because if you make a mistake, you probably wont get out in time, especially on lower ranks where team mates are slower to help you out. I also dont find it generally true that support dies last. Especially in lower ranks, where the phrase ''kill the support'' is very common. Because the lack the aim and damage output to kill anybody that is being pocketed by a mercy. So you kill the mercy instead. Yes your unranked to GM is always easiest on support, because you are a great player. That doesn't mean support is easy for players that are just starting out. And honestly anecdotally most of my ovewatch friends have higher dps and tanks rank than support. And Im a gold support myself. What I mostly think is that most players have a very biased opinion of the game purely based on their own rank (or skill level) and experience. And its very hard for a GM players to put himself in the shoes of a silver player, and have an accurate opinion of what is going on in silver games, and vice versa. So what I think we need to do, is to stop making these sweeping generalizations about certain roles and characters. Because I would bet that there are factual differences in how they are played in different ranks. And most of all: What is difficult and what is easy is VERY subjective. People have natural talents, some of their strong sides might favor a certain role in the game. Anyways Samito, I think you should stop being so fucking obsessed about it. Honestly who cares if other people find support hard to play, while you think its easy? Does it really matter? And honestly fuck you for assuming anyone who doesnt share you opinion is dumb, and doesn't know shit about the game. It's a game, not a science. Get off your high horse....
Dude with this guys logic the whole game is always balanced cause enemy team also has 1tank 2dps 2supp and can pick same heroes to play so it evens out. His takes are just insane..."I played mauga and moira and ranked up to top500 to ana nade requires no skill" LIKE WHAT DID U JUST SAY MY GUY? That got me rolling ngl..
my man samito grinding the free content machine (support players), lovin the videos so far
fr I havent fucked with overwatch for a couple years but i will never get tired of whiny support mains getting roasted lol
@@ryankelly7070support players are usually whining about how you're impossible to keep alive, yet convinced you're not being healed. but funny streamer say support always good so easy if I lose u fault 🦍🦍🐵🐵
@@xcelestialdemon8245 i think youre dissing me but honestly i have no idea youre trying to say
@xcelestialdemon8245 Here have a snickers, your angrier without it.
@@ryankelly7070 dont worry hes just saying he loves you
Even though I’m a support player, immortal backlines are one of the most infuriating things in the game. Everyone’s agency falls off a cliff unless one of the immortal supports makes an irredeemable mistake.
The specific one that drives me crazy is Kiri LW, between the 2 of them there are 4 “no death” buttons they can press at any moment even if they, or someone on their team, does everything wrong.
How are you getting 3 no death buttons. I only count 3 between the 2 in grip, suzu, and tp. Petal is still extremely punishable. I wouldn't call it a no death button anymore then any other movement ability.
@bradmiles1984 petal platform requires specific heroes/situations to punish. Petal platform plus dash starts the passive healing in a lot of situations. Plus tree. So tp, grip, suzu, platform and dash, plus potentially tree, plus potentially kiri ult which makes all the cooldowns go down faster.
Supports actually supporting each other is almost impossible to fight.
Bro LW...the sensation of almost securing a kill on someone who overextended and deserved to be punished just to suddenly gettting a pat in the shoulder because a support has a "fix mistakes" ability is infuriating
@@Kat-xp8zn That's why invulns shouldn't exist in the game.
Yes on kiri no on lw lmao , lw is such ass he's so big and easy to hit I very very rarely see him on ladder. Maybe my experience is just different to everyone else
Wild that homie literally made a point saying that in a 2v1 the 2 will more than likely win.
It's what happens when they reduce everything to math.
Yup, was laughing my ass off with that one
Needs to be patched.
Poor support players are in disadvantage when fighting against UNFAIR AND TOXIC ganksquads!!
In today's news: Overwatch support player makes a presentation on 2 > 1. All their fellow support players on Reddit and Twitter applauded their mathematical genius.
Amaterasu: Support isn't easier.
Also Amaterasu: Anti-nade requires the Enemy to be skilled not you.
The way he was talking about his Top 500 Moira then proceeded to run off the map ...
Bro I actually thought he was Retarded 🤣
This guy is the most boosted player in the game, the support guy he’s watching.
Dude fr how is he top 500 bro is terrible lmfao and clearly has no fucking idea what's going on in the game
He's diamond at most. His ass is boosted
@@Vastspartan There was a video where he said soldier's biotic field is stronger than suzu lmao
@@LaughingBox2not only that, but he said it was stronger than ALL of the support cooldowns 😭 it’s insane how braindead some people are that they think biotic field is stronger than suzu, immortality field, life grip, regen burst, sleep, anti nade, etc.
hes rage baiting and samito is falling for it
Spilo talked about this today. A conversation in SBV podcast about this would be nice
BVS Overwatch 👍
spilo actually has a considered argument though, instead of 45 mins of hyper reactive yammering
And interestingly, he also arrived to the same conclusion as Sam but from a different perspective. Spilo's point being more on the fundamental approach of "support will not make you climb by default, but if you genuinely have a better skillset than your rank, support will allow you to boost higher off of that skill disparity than any of the other roles" - which in turn means more support players end up climbing relative to dps and tank players' skillsets of similar ranks.
Svb is a chump
I think some supports get just pampered. I started mostly playing Zen back in the dive meta back before brig got released and it was not easy, but with a lot of the heroes that got released including Moira, Brig, Bap, Kiriko and Lifeweaver, it's almost impossible to punish their mistakes, be it bad positioning, bad target priority or misusing abilities. The big issue coming from this is that a lot of supports are just SO god damn survivable while having the most impactful abilities, that lack any form of skill expression, especially tp and suzu, lifegrip and dash and bap's 3 healthbars. Adding onto that the heavy reliance of tanks for healing and DPS to get kills set up by their Supports and you got a recipe for disaster, where you either have the better supports or lose.
We need to give Supports abilities with skill expression and a need to make a decision between using it offensively or defensively while most importantly not being able to shut down ultimates for free.
Ana is one of the very few characters in the support role that actually require skill and the guy in the video looks like a low-mid diamond player at best and he’s t500 which he shouldn’t be. Support players will continue to cry saying their role is weak and as a support player I just want to tell them to shut up already. Being “valuable” on support is literally, don’t die and heal the team, every other role has to hope their supports know what the fuck is going on but their brains are so damn small and they just straight up don’t understand basic mechanics most of the time and it’s insane
So basically we need more supports like Ana, where the abilities have defensive and offensive uses while the hero also has a clear weakeness that can be used by the enemy. Yet for some reason Ana is under critisism while not having any of these issues like Kiri or Bap. I just don't get it.
@@InvaderD0cmy only real issue is, from a tank standpoint, I absolutely despise beating the shit out of the enemy tank only for the enemy Ana to press a single E key and invalidate it all, while also canceling any incoming healing for me. By pressing one key on their keyboard, they have both invalidated my work while also managing to put me on the back foot...
She's no where near as egregious as almost the entire rest of the support cast, but she still has some issues that tilt the game in a negative way.
If nade could only apply one at a time based on who it hit first I think it would be much better
That or 6v6 again so another tank could help mitigate shit
@@InvaderD0c anas abilities control the meta. heroes are balanced around anas nade, sleep and nano. even if shes one of the few supports to actually use skill her existence making or breaking it for a lot of heroes is just unfun
I think the more easy-to-understand phrasing is this: Support have the easiest time overriding or negating an otherwise objective skill gap seen on the other roles in a match.
If you're an avg support and have an avg tank, even if the enemy tank is superior to yours, and the enemy supports are equal to you, you're still getting equal value even though objectively on paper you should be losing that fight - because you as an average support can negate more skill gap potential among the other roles.
This does go both ways, which is the point that value negation on support is easier than any other role, and value gain is also easier.
If you are, objectively, the best player in your lobby - then your biggest potential to win that match is if you're on support.
Effective value consistency from skill gap is where the focus should be. A support skill gap will be much more consistent in securing you positive winrate, than a skill gap on tank or on dps. And that's why it's easier to rank up on support IF you are a better-than-average player relative to your rank. Aka IF you deserve to rank up relative to the other players within your role at your current rank, then Support is going to be the easiest one to do this from.
And because support baseline value is so easy, it's relatively difficult to derank or be the reason your team is getting gapped. This means support players tend to just float relative to their overall team performance, whereas tank and dps tend to float relative to their overall supports' performance (when everyone is objectively equally skilled).
TLDR;
IF you're actually better than your rank, objectively - then Support is the easiest role to climb with.
If you're actually worse than your rank, objectively - then Support is the easiest role to maintain SR with.
That's why so many supports end up boosting to high ranks and then just floating around for a long time, because their base means of obtaining value is so easy compared to other ranks, so they don't have to be equal to other supports to get the same baseline value that still exceeds what the other roles can do with superior skill application.
The hard reality of the “math debate” is that support mains are worse overall Overwatch players that players of their same rank, so when dps and tank mains go to offrole they end up climbing higher on support because they have better game understanding than support players
I've spoken to many support only players and this is absolutely true, they dont even understand basic mechanics like taking off angles.
The reality of that is, support isn't boosted because it's overpowered, it's boosted because bad players play support. Plat 3 and below supports are probably all worse than high silver dps.
it might even go 10 fold on mercy, it’s like they don’t know they are even playing ow.
There's not really a meaningful distinction between support kits being overpowered and support players being bad. I think they refer to the same issue. Bad players will be more apt to choose support as their preferred role because it's easier to get value. Why is it easier to get value? Because the support kits are bloated and overpowered. Each one causes the other circularly. In fact, I believe the support kits being overpowered is what is keeping support players less skilled. There's less pressure on them to improve. It's really a shame. In the end, I think the only thing worth discussing is the overpowered kits, because it's the only thing the OW devs can directly modify.
Thats so true. The worst thing that a support main can do is only play supports.
Its comical that he gives opinions on ana's nade while showing gameplay of him completely wasting it, just yeeting it away AS AN ILIARI WAS ABOUT TO SHOOT THE SUN TO HIS FACE 16:00.
And overall, just throwing it randomly at walls and floors throughout the video, disregarding both teammates, enemies, and his survival.
Out of all the nonsensical, biased, cherry-picked arguments, talking about the ana nade was one exclusion he could have made...
...but no, lets continue to talk out of our ass.
This guy's video are proof of how the crutches supp gives players impact their understanding of the game.
Its proof supp CAN (not 100% of the time luckily) gaslight players into thinking they're good while blinding them of their mistakes, chaining them forever in this delusional mental state, where every issue teammates bring up to them is false, and everyone is hating on them.
Pretty pitiful
Remember, supports are only in the game so that DPS players can have fun with no accountability.
I agree that support abilities are overpowered in some ways, but they have to be to make up for the fact that no one wants to play a role that is only there to enable other players to have fun. It needs to be a team deathmatch style FPS for the majority of players to be satisfied. Team based/objective based games don't suit the majority of players who just want to kill, respawn, repeat with no care for anyone else.
Support player alert
@@Bennerwoo???
@@matthewbrears2129bro why are you like this, its time to get real and get help
That guy should teach filibustering
The fact that Lifeweaver has not one but TWO cooldowns that completely negate Graviton Surge is the perfect example of OW2’s support problem
i think anaterasu kinda has a point: if the enemy supports have the same kit as you, then you still have to play better than them and make use of your broken kit better than they do. because power is relative, and while as support you're more impactful as a dps player, you're not more impactful than the other support players (with exception, which I'll shortly go into).
that said, the real question is: how hard is it to become the better support player? i think there's a fair argument to be made that dps and tank tend to appeal to very hardcore competitive players while support appeals to more casual players (not always, but sometimes). being an easier role is part of that; it's scary to go play dps and get widow diffed for 20 minutes, but if you pick support you can still contribute even if you're not playing well at that moment. this is evident in queue times; support queues are super long, which indicates there are more people (probably more casual players) queuing support.
it's similar to the early ow2 boosting problem. when there's a lot of new people playing the game, they're not going to be as skilled and they're going to fill up the lower ranks of the game, artificially boosting the hardcore players who already have a baseline understanding of overwatch. if you're a hardcore overwatch player, you're going to climb above the masses of people playing lower impact support heroes like moira by just picking kiriko or bap and playing with basic ow2 fundamentals.
easy support kits do not directly make it easier to climb on a long-term scale (you will eventually stabilize to the rank you "deserve"), but i think there's something to be said about the state of support being simultaneously appealing to a large mass of casual players while also being easy to carry on by just picking the right hero.
Yes but you ignore the fact that throughout the game you are not usually interacting with the enemy supports but rather the enemy dps and tank who you are literally designed to deny their ability to do their job. And because of this you have everything you need to never lose
@t_dappa I'm not ignoring that supports interact with dps and tanks at all. i play mostly dps and i fully understand the feeling of having to punch through 2 immortalities/pulls and having your supports complain dps diff while they do jack shit on lucio or mercy. but it's also up to the enemy supports to similarly deny your dps and tank value. if BOTH teams supports are abusing their kits, then at a certain point one of them still has to lose. a powerful role that has a large impact on the game makes it easier to carry, but at the end of the day you can only carry up to your relative skill level, which is separate from the issue of boosting (which is when you're getting value past your relative skill level). you can argue that if you play support better than x% of support players then you will consistently win games and climb to your "deserved rank" faster than dps and tank which often feel cosmetic, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to be producing value at the xth%tile for supports to reach that rank.
that said, i agree that it's easier to climb on support because many support players don't maximize their value by playing weaker/more. if every support player was good at their job then the ranked grind would be just as competitive as dps and tank grinds, but id say there are so many people who play support and don't go the strong carries like kiri and bap, or who do play them but don't know how to use their abilties at all. because of that, having even a basic understanding of ow fundamentals (which id argue tank and dps roles force you to learn faster) puts you way ahead of the majority of the playerbase. and THAT'S why support is easy to climb with (when other roles are strong you don't see as much "boosting").
i think role queue ranked is kinda weird because you have different ranks and distributions for different roles, which reflects your relative skill to people in that role and not the entire overwatch community. i think it's 100% reasonable to say that a gm kiri player is not the same caliber as a gm genji player, as they're basically playing different games with different playerbases. support is arguably the easiest one to place high in because of it having a large population and a lot of more casual players. and part of that is because they have mechanically forgiving kits, but that's the key middle step to explain why the role is boosted, but it's not as simple as just "it's the carry role". because even among the carries there's going to be people who are better and worse at carrying.
this got kinda ranty but im just trying to get across that i agree support is broken, a carry role, and the easiest to grind to a high ranked percentile. but i think the reasons why that's true are more nuanced than just "you can carry". because while amaterasu's points are flawed and i think samito is right (and I'm sure that instinctively he knows why he's right), the way the points are broken down in this video do not fully explain his reasoning and i want people to be able to discuss support balance with full nuance.
@@t_dappa you didn't understood his point.
He is saying that is balanced. Balanced as a whole.
Tank is balanced? and always will be balanced, even thought it has 40000 hp and 2000 damage or 1 hp -5 damage, as both teams will have the same god/waste of air.
The problem is that it wont have balanced interactions with the rest of the players. a super duper tank would instakill everyone and the fights just will be tank vs tank with everyone dead.
If tank is super ultra weak then it plays wont matter and it will be a 4v4. and that would be unfun for everyone.
Samito has dropped nothing but bangers the past 2 months
Clearly Samito has never seen my Lucio gameplay when talking about how often supports die.
I am dps player but for the last 6 month i have been playing support because :
1- its easy compared to other role
2-fun to play
3-i can carry with high dmg and high healing and immortality
Am wrong?
But most players will cry on samito because their feeling more important than the fact 😂
So, you're still playing dps? Lmao everything's a dps now.
I'm with you. I prefer Tank and DPS but Tank is just about getting slapped around and DPS feels like Supports undo a lot of good plays by just existing. I want to have fun and Support's so busted that I have a good time and win games.
@@bellsprout7748I've been playing more tank lately cause I have a new friend coming into the game and tank is able to carry the games the easiest. I stomp most games on tank with 1 person on my team who's never played an FPS before overwatch. Tank players are honestly just bad and dumb. Is it hard to play tank? Yes, but does it feel bad? Not really. It feels bad when you have 4 brain dead team mates but other than the rare games where EVERYONE is legit terrible it's still pretty easy to carry and climb as tank. I'm a support main since OW1 and have like 90% wr on my tanks this season maining Reinhardt, DVA and Ramm
Support = DPS Plus@@altfemboy3109
I think you're phrasing your point wrong. "Support is the easiest to rank up on" is not what you really mean.
What you REALLY mean is "When considering your individual skill level, your rank on support will be higher than other roles due to support being easier to use your skill with."
or maybe "your support rank, when played an equal amount as the other roles, will be highest due to more efficient individual player skill use because of game balance."
“Support isn’t broken or boosted! The enemy team has supports too, so it’s BaLaNcEd..”
Fr like tf is this guy on lol bro thought he was cooking.
When my supports miss their cooldowns while their support is hitting everything and abusing their hero what's next?
@@thisaintbrandon “but what if my team is bad? should I just lose?” Yeah. Of course.
Its also hard for them to make up for stupid decisions from their damage allies@@thisaintbrandon
Don’t worry the only role is support now
highkey learned from this, didnt really think how disciplined you have to be playing comp on overwatch
just starting to play overwatch i understand what your saying here, and also this guy just sounds stupid
Samito is right. I mained brig since I started playing. I’m gold in support, but low bronze in dps this season. I don’t even play tank because it sucks.
Also worth noting that when Samito says “Supports can contribute the most to the game at the lowest amount of skill” - true, but the same is still true as we get higher up, which is way way more important when considering rank factor. If same skill level players can do more on support, then their support rank will be higher than say their DPS rank, as their similar skill level can contribute even more to the game.
By that same token it's going to harder for them as dps to rank up because it comes down to not having scrubs as support.
Playing at mid gm level I see a lot of support players being gm in only supports but when I look at the tanks and dps they are gm in every role. It’s funny because when supports get nerfed they complain the most. They complain to devs to make the game easier for them. It’s very annoying that on dps or tank you can’t get kills because of burst healing and imorts and get out of jail free abilities. They made supports so hard to dive just because they didn’t have to skill to position or hit their shots correctly. They say that they need to defend themselves when really it’s up to your team to keep you alive. Now you just out heal or tp away. On dps I have to try so hard to secure a kill cuz everyone just gets healed to full in an instant. Or I have to try and get a kill before the imort comes out. It’s so obvious that the sup abilities are so easy to use and get value. It’s crazy they don’t see it.
the commentator is actually gold hahah "ana nade takes no skill" lool
I actually like his Sojourn with Mercy pocket example.
And yes I do think the Mercy player IS boosting the Sojourn player.
But that is not because the Mercy player is good at the game and so skilled, but rather because they pick a hero that can get insane value by standing behind a wall and holding a single button.
The Sojourn player is the one that has to work hard mechanically, think about what angle to play, who to shoot etc.
And the reason he can play more aggressive and one shot so easily is the Mercy player chilling behind the corner holding one of 2 button, can often resurrect the Sojourn player if he did a mistake or got diffed, and flies away if anything goes wrong.
And before anyone calls me a salty dps player, I barely play Overwatch anymore and my most played role is support.
"Any DPS receiving support outplays the support"...yes, because that's a 2V1...🤦🏾♂️🙄😭🤣
samito attacking the hornets nest lol
The hornets r stupid asf in this case lol
@@jesse5253 not as stupid as you the video is rage bait
5:12 WHAT IS HE AIMING AT LMFAOOOO
I just noticed, Im gold and i have better aim than him 💀
not at the enemy team obviously xd
Yeah that wall is in for a world of hurt
I love the way Sam states his arguments, always clear and concise, no confusion on what he's trying to get across, and he uses plain and simple logic, the goat fr
the quake clip had me laughing so fucking hard, bro just sitting there maddogging the ana
I know a Mercy main who's GM5 on support, pretty much only playing Mercy. She's silver on both dps and tank.
I mean that's to be expected with specialist characters, I quit playing Mercy cause I felt like I wasn't playing the same game as everyone else and felt I wasn't working on my general overwatch fundamentals.
No its cause mercy gameplay requires 2 (sometimes 3)buttons she is brain dead easy lol@@TheRealSorav
BOOSTED
Fr as most mercy players are@@Apocalypse754
My sister is a master support player on moira and mercy and she completely lacks game sense. Doesnt even know advanced movement tech as mercy, doesnt understand team comp, doesnt understand which dps is good or bad vs which dps, doesnt understand different tank playstyles, doesnt understand supports should look to deal damage and deny enemy players. She doesnt understand a lot more of the things i mentioned, yet she is a master support player. I love her but its truth.
When I play monkey, I can jump on dps heroes if they’re out of position and have a good chance of taking them out, especially if I place bubble correctly. When I hop on to a support that’s out of position, ik the chances of me getting the kill is so low because they’re gonna have an ability to bail them out. Maybe even two abilities 😭 (I’m a M1 Support)
I’ll rephrase this too. When u play monkey and dive a dps you will most likely get the kill. If you play monkey and dive a supoort, you will most likely get killed 😂
10% of faking the agreement
90% absolutely shitting on him
I dont think that's healthy in a monologue 😂
Yes, I have noticed that a lot of support players have an extremely uncanny proficiency in their ability to dps. Like, they are alarmingly good at dealing damage despite being a low rank. You're not worried about the DPS on the enemy team unless they are Hanzo or Ashe. You're worried about the Kiriko, Ana or Baptiste. Because they can do damage and heal at the same time. And some of the damage they can do is on par or absolutely superior to any damage a DPS hero can do.
Like you think about that and then realize mercy's rez has a 30s CD and it takes a soul 14 seconds to despawn in OT and you just start to hate this game because of how weenie hut jrs it is. Like you're not even supposed to be able to play DPS unless you are an aimbot or a pro player.
id literally rather be playing cod getting aim assisted off the map by some kid on an xbox than putting up with this, that's how bad it is. And I'm an OG overwatch tracer player that still fought the good fight when they added brig in season 10.
Spilo Vs. Samito would feel like the debate of the century.
hot take but instead of making support feel like other roles, we should make other roles feel like support. every role should feel like it brings huge value and you can play any character.
Happy Monday, angy OW2 vibes
eh, my experience was I couldn't climb as support, despite playing my heart out and making a bunch of clutch shots and saves as ana couldn't get out of gold. But then I started playing soldier/Mei instead and could finally climb to plat.
Sam’s reaction at 12:00 was priceless 😂
To anyone that some how doubts that dps is the hardest role. Play tracer only no swaps regardless of match up for an hour or so each play session.
Once you get past the black pill realization that there are some character in this game that get absolutely no value id you can't mechanically excecute to a certain threshold .
I do hope you perseverve through the learning pains and discover the joys of learning a hero that rewards you for understanding the game wholistically.
Now once you've warmed up your APM for the day on tracer. you can go and get yourself a new peak on support with ez.
As a tracer main with 500+ hours on her that i have basically forced her into every single comp, i can say it is like playing on hard mode...especially because theres dps that also have low skill requirements, you basically have to mechanically diff them, with the difference that unlike supports, they can get punished for getting greedy.
@Kat-xp8zn Tracer requiring more output than most if not all dps is a problem that from expirence seem to hurt way more towards the skill floor of the game, but it's definitely worth it in the end. Cause Tracer doesn't just rely on mechanics. You need a wholistic understanding of the game to do anything on tracer. Playing tracer doesn't just tax your understanding of advance concepts like tracking, Target priority, cooldown usage etc. It also tested your knowledge on aspects of the game that most don't even consider.
Such as how your character hitbox looks at any given time. Since this is a first person shooter game very few people conceptualize the games tate outside of what they can see in their crosshairs. But tracer players have to micromanage how much of their character model the enemy can see at any given time at all times.
I'm not even like a tracer player or a dps player. I'm more of a no aim, all brains Winston type, so it's painfully obvious to see how much game sense is needed to play tracer.
Personally I think every meta rank player can learn a lot from forcing themselves into playing tracer. As a tank main myself once I play a few quickly games on tracer. Once I go back on tank, despite playing a character dva with her huge as hitbox, I'm smoving like I have ultra instincts. Turns out you can do a lot with your WASD keys lol and Tracer's good for teaching that
@@bm4604 I already know all of this, but thanks
but why limit yourself to only one hero? thats like me saying "only play zen and you will see how hard support is" thats just a dumb argument
@@amyglynn6827zen is easy. Every support is easy
As a Lucio one trick I will say support is the easiest role to play and rank up, even Lucio the support with the least value is still easier to play and rank up than some dps and tanks and yes 5v5 and role passives are some of the causes of this, the only support that was affected in a negative way by 5v5 and role passives was Lucio every other support just got easier to play.
As a Zen player, I don't think he's gotten easier. I find myself forced to swap off Zen WAY more often than I did in OW1
@@wandregisel6385 Even tho zen can be more oppressive now and has a better defense the lack of one tank allows more heroes to dive so that's probably it, but, still in a 1v1 scenario zen is way better now than before.
@@JumpsOw eh, he's better in 1v1s perhaps (though it should be said in OW1 you could duel a tank if they messed up), but other than that he's worse. And the heroes who want to force that 1v1 against Zen are typically favoured anyway
@@JumpsOwgetting dived isn’t really the problem with zen rn you can outplay and anticipate a dive the problem is if you’re getting any value with zen the enemy team goes sombra and she does so much dps now that you can’t outplay it with zen as long as the sombra has 2 hands(only way you live is if a support is babysitting you)
@@wandregisel6385 Dude I miss 1v1ing tanks in ow1 I used to spawn camp even Hogs, now I can't do anything.
The king of nuance is back to farm something he doesn't actually care about. Dismisses every take he doesn't agree with and never once acknowledges that Supports have juiced kits since they have multiple responsibilities.
You're saying supports being the easiest role doesn't mean it's easy, but then say all supports are boosted.
Yessss. I'm here for the minute-to-minute contradictions! My man can't disprove anything I say, but he'll tell me "You're wrong" and feel good.
Stop acting as if mechanical skill is all that matters. Why do I have to bait cooldowns and moves in fighting games and other shooters but you cry about doing the same? If I had the time I'd make a compilation of you contradicting yourself because it's exhausting.
Sam is autistic dont bother
Dafran's test was also criticized for the lack of sample size and for ignoring how popular the DPS role was in OW1.
A lot of DPS players lead with their egos in ways that support players aren't known to do, but we're not ready to take a nuanced look at any of this. Everyone is a moron except for Samito and he can't even make a logical argument without lazy over generalizations and absolute language.
You said it's not a math issue but you're talking about value, which can be measured mathematically. Don't talk about win rates if you don't want to talk about math.
This yapping is incredulous bro. You sure you know what that word bait means?
@@gawizard4980 you mean the thing that made you comment?
its crazy the only example he can use against dps is sojourn. He keeps on talking about sojourn when she is way too overpowered and the rest of the dps roster are not even close to her level. That in itself proves that this guy knows what hes talking about
The guy that same is watching is the best example of Plat chat I've ever seen.
And with those takes I wonder if he even made it up to Plat before he got boosted
I grinded every role to AT LEAST master on both OW1 and 2. I could have ranked up on support with one hand. It's BY FAR the easiest. Supports could make an infinite number of videos about how it's not the easiest, it'll never convince me that it's even close.
DPS/Tank difficulty comes down to game knowledge over « raw aim » I'd say. Paraphrasing a lot obviously, but it's just to say that those 2 roles aren't difficult in the same way hence why even as a tank main it's pretty hard to definitely say Tank is THE hardest role. In my opinion it is, but I can understand why one could think it's DPS.
But there's absolutely no fucking way that Support is the most difficult role to play in Overwatch 2. Even in Overwatch 1 it was by far the easiest role. You really have to play nothing but support to think that way.
Honestly, as a LW one trick with more than 180 hours on him (and used to play support back in season 3 of OW2), I so agree. I had a game 2 days ago where my other support ran Mercy. She had 18 deaths in a 20 minute game. She didn't even damage boost much and tried to heal bot but only ended up having 4k heals. Her movement was also garbage. (I'm Diamond in support and plat 1 on tank, been stuck on plat most of OW2 and just hit Masters this season to fall down back to high diamond. Currently in Diamond 1. Maybe a bit boosted but like, I don't duo much and mostly a solo player)
We need Spilo, Samito, and SVB to have the Is Support Boosted? Debate asap
Argument: Someone can counter Anti-Nade by playing well
Conclusion: So it doesn't need the skill to use
Bro, is exactly because the opponent can counter a badly used Anti-Nade that you have to be good to use effectively. You see, to supports if the ability doesn't give you immediate and uncontestable value by the simple act of using it means that the ability is bad, low skill, and dumb. It doesn't make sense (and it doesn't need to) that he is in the 'us vs them' mentality and he is protecting his side.
I feel like it’s very polarizing. A great example is Lucio. If people just picked Lucio and stayed on heal bot. They would do better than most others. It’s so simple that people can’t comprehend. Then there is a tier above that where ur speed boosting as a group in advantage state. Or speeding out to disengage when in disadvantage state. But for this you need everyone to be kinda on the same wavelength. So therefore he can be (hard throwing useless, boosted heal bot, 3rd dps, or gigabrain) in that order.
And even if you explain it, simpletons won’t understand you need to read everyone’s mind.
As a support main, I do find most games hard to win because I would like to help with damage, I sometimes am forced to heal-bot because my teammates positioning or the lack of using natural cover causes them to take all the damage in the server. I could nade and shove my Ana rifle up their backsides and still can't out heal the damage they're taking cause my Hog won't step to left behind a corner. This happens a lot in the metal ranks.
It happens in Master too lmao. They truely believe you can outheal 5 guys focusing them like if supps were jesus on steroids
🤣
ill admit to being 12iq if it makes the game better
A true hero
@@kirim001 im not the hero OW deserves, but the one it needs right now. Or at least Batman quotes give me the strength to keep going idk
Weird bc I be skyrocketing in dps when you just win the 1v1s. Support I have to constantly check all corners, maintain my ability usage, and be close but far enough from my team to get peel and assist my team. Tank is self explanatory in ow 2 if we’re gonna talk about that
What rank? And only Ana really applies to the staying far from the team
You get peel? I wish I was playing in your games. I’m stuck getting dove by everyone on the enemy team while my teammates are emoting/ picking their noses. A tank that doesn’t know how to do tank things (well besides taking obscene amounts of damage and then blame support for not healing while active finding every angle to make healing them more difficult or just plain impossible.) and dps that have no situational awareness.
I started playing Open Queue whenever I get more than 1 friend to play because we can just run Zarya, a situational tank and a Zen
We have like a 80-90% win rate and got both my friends into high gold from low silver in one night going 10-1
It’s just the ACTUAL game in that format. You actually do OVERWATCH things; swapping on the fly, ult management, long team fights where everyone is having fun and not frantically trying to survive
Just play open queue fellas; tank the player numbers of role queue until they realize nobody wants to play it; because it ISNT OVERWATCH
27:15 damn i remember when i started playing and support was the role where you actually needed the gigabrain
When we say a role is "easier to rank up on", what we mean is "there's less distinction between good players and bad players on win-rate, making it easier for bad players in that role to rank up, and harder for good players to rank up." This is implied in the original statement, because it makes no sense to complain about a role being easy to rank up on for good players, because the purpose of ranks is to push good players to higher ranks. So you are totally right that it's the "same question." I don't know why support players are taking it so literally, when it's pretty obvious what the intent of the question is. The issue is supports have enough guaranteed value for players with mid-level skill and understanding to reach top ranks. Also "easy" in this context refers to what you deserve based on your skill. Theoretically you could be a mediocre players who doesn't ever improve, so even if you "grind" and "work hard", you don't automatically deserve a higher rank. Support players may get that confused, and say "Well I worked really hard to get my rank so it wasn't easy for me." That's just not what we mean by easy.
I genuinely think we need to rethink the value of the ranked system classifications
Like OW ogs remember literal ELO hell from back in the day; and I really don’t think much has changed…and to an extent the support disparity contributes to the other roles ranking not really mean anything
I haven’t touched support since I ranked, ended up in plat 4 or something. But when I play support I just swap to the hero that will let me take over the game; because there’s something that works to limit nearly every comp. Oh, they have a lot of hp? Zen discord. Oh, they are going hard dive? Brig it is! Oh, they have a pharmacy? I’ll just go Ana and pick the open mercy…
You can limit the game variance by picking the correct hero to negate what you’re seeing; no other role can do that.
Basically all this boils down to me saying that your rank in the other roles is just dependent on the support match. Add on top the typical multiplayer game variance of dogwater teammates, no comms, one tricking in a game designed swapping when you’re not a gaming god, etc. and *literally* your rank it ends up being almost completely out of your hands unless you simply are way better mechanically.
The second you go in Open Queue it’s a whole new world, where everyone ive faced is playing GOATS hybrid comps (or have 2 dps and get rolled lol) so then everyone’s contributions *actually* matter.
LMAOOO this title with this thumbnail is just amazing gotta love Sam
Isn't the reason why Brig has such a high winrate the fact that she is just used for counterpicking?
If the enemy comp is favorable for Brig than pepole will pick her to gain an advantage.
If the eneny comp isn't favorable for Brig than pepole won't pick her at all.
Bronze and Lower ranks are not counterpicking with brig.
Fair enough. I got my ana to GM5/M1 but struggling to get my soldier and zarya past Diamond 4. It is definitely easier to carry by making the right decisions in support, whereas making the right decisions is required to just win in the other two roles (vs carrying).
Even as a Support player, I'm tired of the balance team constantly trying to baby the role by making everything easier to do with less stress and input. Even one of the reasons behind the new healing passive that Tanks and DPS will get is to help ease the stress of healing the team. That mindset is what caused immortality abilities like Suzu, Lamp, and Lifegrip to exist.
- Three of the heroes who don't require good aim to function are in the Support role (Moira, Brig, and Mercy)
- Kiriko and Bap are some of the best duelists in the game thanks to the fact they have so many get-out-of-jail cards. Kiri's hitbox is also small to make it harder for you to hit her and the size of her projectiles is massive to make it easier for her to hit you.
- When Ana was released, her burst heal felt earned because you had to aim and land your shots. All OW2 Supports so far (Kiriko, LW, and Illari) can have their heal methods summed up as "I look in your direction, hold a button and you get burst heals." Not to mention Illari's automatic value pylon.
I would like for them to stop trying to make the role easier to play and let your plays feel earned instead of "I pressed a button and I get instant value/save a teammate." Ana is one of the most popular heroes in the game and she's not easiest Support.
You missed LW you need to aim as much as moira to heal.
Im with u but the brig slander my baby, but other than that i fully agree
@@cuppy1199 I like Brig too, but I had to mention her since it's part of the point I'm making.
The dev team basically said they wanted to make more Mercy-style support heroes last year and sadly, this is the result. It makes me sad because I picked up Ana thanks to ML7 but now, I'm gonna wonder how stupid easy the Space Ranger is gonna be when they come out.
The babying of the support role is because support players like it. People with no fps experience can't play tank because they won't be able to handle the hell that is thrown at tanks. And they can't play dps because landing shots in overwatch is extremely difficult.
Support is an easy entry role to get started on where you won't die constantly for having no situational awareness.
It literally takes 1 minute to check and see that Symmetra and Torb both have 55% winrate across all ranks
Pickrate is different than winrate
@@vexthepichu226 yeah no shit, but how is this relevant to my comment?
@@vexthepichu226 yeah no shit, but how is this relevant to my comment?
@@litfuse8729
first off, watch your tone with me, because I ain't Samito, love...
second, I wasn't saying anything bad, I was just saying in general...
@@vexthepichu226 first of all you’re fucking nobody so don’t tell me what to do
Secondly, if you weren’t visually impaired you coulda seen that I was talking about winrate and not pickrate. And I’m right, both Torb and Sym do in fact have 55% winrate no matter the rank
It's been so interesting listening to both sides. I follow both creators and enjoy both takes.
Im not sure why you even debate this argument, I guess for views, cuz this argument is non existent, no matter what anyone say’s it is obvious that the support role is the easiest role to rank up on. Now, sure a player could be goated in every single role, that is fine, but a lot of people are only good as support because they mechanically are less talented, but positioning and strategically they may have the upper hand
At the beginning of this season I was m5 on tank and dps and m4 on support
I decided to grind to gm5 on all roles
It ended up taking 800 games in total
I did it in dps first with 80 wins
Then I started on support and it the first 60 wins I got to m1
Then I went 5-11 and then for 7 CONSECUTIVE CARDS I went 5-5. Each time going down 10%. Then I went 5-12. I dropped down to masters 5 (lower than I'd started with way more experience playing support now). I got sick of it so I started to play tank and got to gm in 40 wins. Now I'm stuck doing support again, everytime I would go 5-2 I would then go 5-8. I was COMPLETELY hardstuck with no idea how to improve so I decided to dps bap. Which got my winrate up but only my rank a little. When I got the next losers queue and went back down to m4 I nearly gave up. So I decided to 5 stack with my friends who are all around gm strength and I got to gm super easily after that.
As arrogant as this sounds, I was a gm support level player before I started the push. Otherwise i wouldn't have solo queued to m1 so quickly. But support for sure has the LEAST impact in the game because it's value comes from forgiving cooldowns. It's easy to use a support cooldown well but it's not easy to use a cooldown to kill someone on dps. My experience from the games I'm playing, is that whichever team has the biggest dps gap loses and you'll be very lucky if ur tank or support can fill the gap. Which is why I think I had more success with dps bap than playing support properly.
TLDR is: I personally think support has the least impact because it doesn't win you fights, it just keeps the fight going.
That guy is the perfect example of having information doesn't mean you know how to interpret it.
this just makes me think that being top 500 or gm in this game is a joke and it cannot be taken seriously
Yeah, everyone's rank got boosted. I used to feel great about being GM/Top 500, but after a while in OW2, I just don't feel that much satisfaction from it.
It’s crazy how Blizzard did role queue, 5v5, and now this upcoming season 9 balance patch that gives everyone the support passive and 250hp is the default, all because they refused to admit their mistakes and rework or vault Brig. Like it’s obvious that aside from making OW2 look like a new game and them theoretically “fixing” tank (lmao), a big reason for 5v5 was they wanted to keep these BS support designs with absurd levels of AOE healing and immortalities and didn’t want to admit their designs were trash so they moved to a TDM style format so stacking these abilities would be less prevalent and broken. Well look at that, Brig has a ~55% in all roles, looks like inspire is still carrying games. Can they just admit they jacked up the game and revert stuff for once? And I’m not talking about minor things like the Mei freeze, although that’s a start. It’s just so depressing we go through all these years of pain just to get a game that’s a shell of its former self to solve and issue that doesn’t even get solved. Classic Blizzard.
Same I wished I truly quit when it was 6v6 so I can have fond memories
Why are you bringing up Brig like she’s overpowered now? She’s good in niche cases now which has been dive. You don’t see Brig against a brawl or poke comp since she gets little value which is proven since she has a low pick rate because again, she’s a niche pick, you’re not default picking her unless it’s a dive meta or you’re a OTP. S9 is literally the first time in OW2 that they’re actually doing changes that makes sense for 5v5. Less healing and more health for the entire cast means that supports have to actually do their job instead of being able to do literally everything and be good at everything.
@@weebtrash3376Did you watch the video? 55% winrate at every rank. Bronze players who don’t even know inspire is an ability are net winning more games than any other support. She’s not even close to the biggest problem in support rn either. My comment is pointing out how she still is a sleeper pick with these stats even when they changed the entire format to mitigate the strengths of inspire and the evidence is that they failed. I agree with you that this S9 patch is them finally making drastic changes they should have when OW2 launched instead of just OW1 with a missing player and worse gameplay. However, I’d withhold your excitement til we play, more class passives like the DPS one is likely going to make DPS gameplay about focusing the tank, tanking will be worse because you’re even more important to focus and everyone has more hp to survive even better, and I don’t even want support to “focus on their job.” Good support players have always been DPS heroes with healing and enabling abilities (aside from Mercy), except back in the day on Lucio/Zen/Ana you actually had to be good at the game. It sounds like you think the game will be better if the larger health pools force supports to heal longer so they can’t just go be better DPS, but frankly that sounds boring. Also, with everyone having a version or the support passive now, good luck being able to have a healbot playstyle when everyone including your Rein is flanking.
All that is to say, yeah Brig actually is broken still but not as a meta mainstay, as a sleeper pick. It’s why Ana/Kiri have low winrates because people default to those picks so and then also will swap to them when already losing. As for S9, be wary. I’m excited to try the changes because it’s at least different than this garbage version of OW we have now, but I can easily see this becoming a degenerate meta all over again because they keep making the same mistakes.
@@GraphiteBlimp27nah you aint even gotta say all that. All you had to say was Brig was the reason we got role queue. And it all fell from there
Are supports a problem? Yes. 1000%. absolutely.
Are tanks the reason supports are a problem. Again. Yes. Absolutely.
No amount of healing can fix stupid, so the dev's solution was to give support players literal immortality instead.
We wouldn't be in this mess if most of the tank player-base had more than a singular functioning braincell.
Am I glad we're here? Hell no. Id give anything for supports to have actual skill expression, but when every other game is a rein charging into a 1v5 and wondering why he's not getting healed I understand why it is the way it is.
The devs wont address the fundamental issues of the immortality abilities until tank players can prove they don't need them to stay alive more than a fraction of a second. We. Cannot. **Heal**. Stupid.
i totally agree with samito here, especially the value to effort ratio. personally support is stressful to play for me which makes it harder than dps but i realize that’s not normal
The role difficulties go like this, and if you don’t agree, your wrong.
Hardest to easiest to rank up:
1.DPS
2.TANK
3.SUPPORT
DPS Is the role that required you to be an all around player, you need to have everything tank has, and support has, while at the same time being mechanically good.
the hardest role to rank up on is probably tank tbh but i think the hardest role to play in general is dps. And my logic on this is because dps has been the least impactful role, outside of a few heroes, for a while so its very easy to provide minimum value on that role and still rank up relatively consistently. DPS player are the best players in the game though and have the easiest time flexing to other roles
@@minami_janai its not impactful depending on how well you play, thats why its the hardest
"if you don’t agree, your wrong" damn then you are really limited. Tank is by far the hardest role and always have been dude. YOU are wrong
Tank does nothing but get shot at and get a few kills here and there@@zhongliimpact6220
I'm a support main but i like watching these vids for moments like this one 33:00
I'm a new ow player who almost instantly picked kiriko cuz i noticed she doesn't need to care about her positioning and just tp (well amongst other other reasons like being a weeb so picking a japanese character yay)
But i think it helped me focus on other things to learn like abilities and point and counters and all(idk if there are games similar to ow in that sense but the only thing i could translate from previous games i played was a little bit of movement and aim and even projectile was a new concept for me to learn)
The thing is too, when someone says, "Support skills don't translate to other roles", it's not a slight against the players. It's the ones who greenlight these characters to be used that screw over those support players. Only aim intensive characters like Zenyatta actually have transferrable ability in terms of aim and need for proper positioning. Why learn proper placement skills when you have Kiri teleport or a Bap drone ready to save you from any mistake? Because you don't die, you don't learn. Losing is what makes you learn. Failure is what makes people improve.
The only argument I guess that you could make is that, Since support is the most high impact role, then it is easier to see when one or both supports mess up. Not saying I agree with this sentiment, as I agree that support is overtuned and certain characters need nerfs (immortality abilities) but it’s something to think about.
Well a lot of supports' value is inherit, so its significantly harder to mess up. Support is the only role that can consistently heal not only themselves, but also teammates. They can deal similar damage to dps. They have a much easier time living because of their powerful cds, and living is the most valuable thing you can do. The problem is they're just as deadly as dps, can stop others from dying, and are nigh immortal themselves. The room for error is so much larger for supports that "messing up" has a whole new definition for them. Bad positioning, poor cd usage, lack of awareness, or off timing are all punishable mistakes on their own for tank and dps. A support needs to do multiple of these at once to get punished.
17:05 I can't believe this is the conclusion he came to 😭 I had the exact same facial expression as Samito here, what the hell...
I play silver support myself, what the fuck is that guy talking about 😂 "sorry bro your maths doesn't add up and it spells disaster for you"
Bro I'm not gonna deny the support role is problematic and out of hand right now but the amount of anti intellectual arguments here is hurting my head. "The math doesn't matter..." It does if we're talking specifically about ranking up in a game that uses literal in-game stats to calculate rank lol. If you want to make the argument support is the most broken role or the most powerful in a vacuum, sure. But your SR is calculated based on your performance, both in terms of wins and in-game stats to a degree, relative to other players of your role. How powerful a role is can be very different from difficulty in ranking up because it depends on what your competition is like. Also making the claim supports do more damage than DPS at 21:29 is wild...yeah the role is now doing more damage than it used to and it's bs it can pump these kind of numbers while healing. But look at the stats...the DPS and Tank roles on average do way more damage than Support across all ranks. You will see games here and there with a support that out performs on damage but come on bro it is not doing more damage on average than the DPS and Tanks. There are problems with the role that need to be addressed but these kind of arguments just seem disingenuous to me and more based on emotion than anything logical. Like you don't have to straight up lie to get your point across...we get it supports are problematic lol but not to the degree you're playing it off as. People in OW need to try some actual unbalanced games for perspective...I swear this community has some of the worst mental of any competitive gaming community I've ever seen.
Reinhardt really needs some help man bro went from giga chad to throw pick.
Hot take I think rein shouldn't have a head hit box. Just no crit option lol
Rein was a giga chad when it was 6v6. Rein / Zarya was a thing for a reason, because he got Zarya by his side. Now it's 5v5, it's unbalanced and miserable. Playing tank in OW2 is just taking pleasure in suffering.
The walk off mic drop moment is pure Sam. I feel his pain. Supports who want to rule the entire game claim that it's fair because the other team has support?
The thing I noticed was he alluded to the Series 9 changes, but I can't wait to see what he thinks about them once people have played with them a few weeks. I'm pretty sure that they're bad for the game, but there are going to be ways they are bad I haven't even thought of yet.
Ana nade used to be a skill reliant cool down but as soon as they added the healing passive you could just chunk nade without almost every worrying about using it on yourself
He's right because the other team has two supports you have the chance to provide just as much impact.
Everything you're saying can be applied to the enemy supports.
The whole point of this video is supports taking agency more than other roles. It's not about their team and my team. Supports on both teams take agency while other roles don't but require more skills.
I've never seen someone be so close to the truth without realizing it. If the only thing preventing supports from taking over games are the enemy support... THAT MEANS SUPPORTS HAVE THE MOST IMPACT ON THE GAME AND ARE EASIER TO CLIMB ON.
DPS have to worry about diffing the enemy DPS, then pray to all things holy that they have the better supports.
Tanks have to gap the enemy tank, then cross their fingers they got the better supports.
Supports can make up for a DPS or tank diff... by just playing support. There's less variables to account for, less mistakes you can be punished for, and less reliance on the matchmaking lottery.
I was mid gold on every role a few seasons ago. Completely hardstuck. Bad aim, bad awareness, l poor cooldown usage. I hard locked Brig for 20 games and got to Diamond 3.
Get this guy amiterasu on the SVB group up podcast, what a goat
this guy is trolling right ? He cant be seriously saying random gibberish and telling himself that he's actually dismantling proven facts
It probably just depends. Support obviously has the biggest effect on the outcome of a game.
So if you’re good, you disproportionately affect the game, so you’ll climb easier than if you’re good and on dps.
But if you suck, you disproportionately affect the game in a negative way, so it might be harder to climb bc you can’t get carried as easily lol
I've always considered myself a support player but I'm in full agreement with Sam here.
Spilo just made the same vid and the thing is u can’t rly be boosted if ur role has the most impact. So support is the easiest to rank up on only if you are good. Ofc there are exceptions like moira bring especially in the lower ranks.
You can. Lemme explain. If your role main function is to mitigate enemy pressure you automatically have a strong near deserved presence in the game. Now if the effort you're putting in to mitigate pressure is none existent then your role is easy, it's the whole "low risk, high reward" idea. It's why pharah mercy and sojourn mercy can be hyper aggressive since if you shoot them mercy doesn't lose any value from committing with blue beam and swapping if they take chip damage.
If all supports maximum potential scaled with the amount of effort needed to achieve said potential wasn't so low then supports would be balanced. If you're getting more value for pressing 2 buttons over someone who just committed nearly all their resources it just might mean your character is naturally stronger.
@@gawizard4980 well both the teams have supports so imo they equal out the automatic presence. I wouldn’t say that mitigating pressure is as easy as u seem to point out but i get the idea u r saying cuz just pressing 2 buttons or 1 button to just heal does kinda do it but that usually doesn’t make u good. Making every character scale for the amount effort is what im for, but I wouldn’t say this is what blizzard is going to do ( they prob wont make make changes to mercy or moira, like core design). But there are same kind of things in other roles too like rein and winston dont have to aim but need to have great game knowledge so they scale differently. Mercy does lose value sometimes just pocketing 1 guy cuz that means she isn’t helping the others in her team and makes the tank, other sup and dps vulnerable. That’s why it might be better to play tracer into a phara mercy than some hitscan
When I first saw how Moira worked as a new player I assumed her fade was on like a 30 second cooldown or something to make up for her auto aim and low skill kit. Like an introductory newb character to ease you into the game. I saw it was on an ultra short cooldown and was like WTF. I can just turbo climb with this. And I did. A bronze player boosted myself to Diamond with Moira.
whoa guys chill brig isnt broken shes....
5:00 he convinced me guys. Since 2 people always lose while playing support, that makes it not the easiest role. Great logic
A broken char cant carry you if you are absolutely bad. its called diffing the other players, ever heard of skill difference? lol
Biotic grenade is henceforth Auntie nade...you heard it here first.
Bro this amaterasu guy made my brain literally rot... in ow1 my highest role was tank... in ow2 my highest role is support.... coincidence?!?! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Maybe you just got better
Samito get a new personality trait other than hating on Supports challenge (IMPOSSIBLE) (GONE WRONG)
I’m a DPS player, i have been playing overwatch since the first year of release and every single time I hit a career peak in role queue it was always on support. I hit diamond first on support, I got higher on support than Dps in masters and support was the first role I got to gm1 in ow2. The Skillset I learned from playing Dps so much definitely helped but the amount of impact I could make on support was such a night and day difference that most games I was chilling.
"dps is the least impactful role so that means that every dps is boosted"
wtf??????? How thick one should be?
I knew nothing about Overwatch, and watched a few vids of this guy, I sorta thought he made sense but even as someone who had never touched the game some of that logic was just *WILD.*
The "nade is no skill because molga lose to it" reminded me of a league of legend game i did where i played trundle vs a riven and when i killed her she started crying and said " i had first blood, 800g over you and ignite and you won by walking toward me. Nice fun character". Somehow she completely forgot that she took 2 tower shot and that the only reason i killed her.
Support hero's can do damage and heal. Generally yes. But Soldier 76 excists, so there is 1 dps that can heal others. Then there is Mei that can heal herself, tracer's recall can fully heal her, and so on. You probably know all the abilities better than me. The point is, your statement is too general, and does not apply to ALL situations. On the other hand you have a support like Zenyetta who cannot heal themselves. Yes Zen is easy to play in terms of healing output. But his positioning is the hardest because if you make a mistake, you probably wont get out in time, especially on lower ranks where team mates are slower to help you out.
I also dont find it generally true that support dies last. Especially in lower ranks, where the phrase ''kill the support'' is very common. Because the lack the aim and damage output to kill anybody that is being pocketed by a mercy. So you kill the mercy instead.
Yes your unranked to GM is always easiest on support, because you are a great player. That doesn't mean support is easy for players that are just starting out. And honestly anecdotally most of my ovewatch friends have higher dps and tanks rank than support. And Im a gold support myself. What I mostly think is that most players have a very biased opinion of the game purely based on their own rank (or skill level) and experience. And its very hard for a GM players to put himself in the shoes of a silver player, and have an accurate opinion of what is going on in silver games, and vice versa.
So what I think we need to do, is to stop making these sweeping generalizations about certain roles and characters. Because I would bet that there are factual differences in how they are played in different ranks. And most of all: What is difficult and what is easy is VERY subjective. People have natural talents, some of their strong sides might favor a certain role in the game.
Anyways Samito, I think you should stop being so fucking obsessed about it. Honestly who cares if other people find support hard to play, while you think its easy? Does it really matter? And honestly fuck you for assuming anyone who doesnt share you opinion is dumb, and doesn't know shit about the game. It's a game, not a science. Get off your high horse....
Dude with this guys logic the whole game is always balanced cause enemy team also has 1tank 2dps 2supp and can pick same heroes to play so it evens out. His takes are just insane..."I played mauga and moira and ranked up to top500 to ana nade requires no skill" LIKE WHAT DID U JUST SAY MY GUY? That got me rolling ngl..
Funny how spilo posted a video today showing why this is the current game sentiment.
It really bothers me how this guy keeps shooting full health allies that aren't under fire. like WHY?!