I don't like the metal case idea. There is enough power supply's and more or less isolated cables laying around, or even laying the adapter on top of circuit boards. No need for another thing that conducts!
So it seems Microchip are basically just rebranding Atmel ATSAM Cortex-M based microcontrollers as PIC32C. Which, naturally, has a completely different architecture and peripheral set from PIC32 because they're really ATSAM chips despite the name.
I'm so glad I have not gotten into ARM yet and will be avoiding both Atmel and Microshit, clearly microchip bought atmel to take over their ranges and quietly ditch their own crap.
Make it from a pair of titanium hemispheres with a clear-coated copper center band, with lasered logos (for style, obviously), and a pair of polycarbonate trim rings, each with their own set of 8 RGB LEDs (that's 16 total, btw). They should change the PC port to an Apple Lightning port (it's the posh port!), and they should _absolutely_ stick with the RJ-45 connector for the programmer port, because it is _obviously_ the most convenient and useful thing _EVER_ (still don't bother to include a breakout board though, LOL). Last thing... Rather than _just_ unscrewing the hemispheres, It needs to be a puzzle box. #TheImportantStuff
With a couple of transparent 10" plastic needles poking out, so they have flashy features for using Blinkenlights. And these needles have to sit in there loose, so you can pull them out an knit a jersey with them while you wait for the programmer to chooch. ^^) Warranty void if any of them break or get lost, of course.
Here we go again Microchip, Richard Head from the marketing department at work here for sure. I completely agree with Mike. I'm a long term microchip designer, stop the marketing BS and make a well engineered product for engineers to use, lose the stupid packaging, give us seperate clearly labelled indicators and please print the pinout on the case. Stop being complete tools and make good and complete tools for us to use. Thanks Mike, full respect.
The spring loaded lug which retains a USB mini is in the socket, so the soldered-to-the-pcb socket is only rated for 500 mate cycles. The springs which retain a micro USB are on the cable, so the socket is rated for 10,000 mate cycles. The mini is mostly considered deprecated for new designs because of this. Interestingly the B connector has the same problem. The micro is actually the best choice for long term reliability if your going to be plugging and unplugging often (it was designed for the smart phone market).
Yea stickers are fine... costs almost nothing although I do understand the rant about the overly engineered case though. A waste when your customers don't care at all about that stuff.
I've been a subscriber to Mike's channel for a long time -- and it's a very small internet so it's funny how many familiar faces you see in unlikely places eh? ;-)
The most important feature for me is that the case comes in fun colors like salsa red and mandarin orange. It would also be cool if you could put on different color cases maybe pink jewels or make it into the shape of emoticons. Another great feature is stickers that I can stick on my car window or laptop so people know I am technically savvy.
I couldn't agree more. I'll take function over form any day of the week as long as it's not my day off. I think you're right about the USB connector too. The larger type B connectors are far more robust and as much abuse as some of those take it's the better choice.
ExStatic Bass : The problem with full size type B connectors is that you can quite easily force them in upside down, probably ruining the device due to 5V going where it should't. Try it, and you'll see.
I wonder if they put any thought on usability of that crappy rgb interface - colourblind people will have a hell of a time compared to the ICD3 that had separate indicators
Round shape: Why!? Worse use of panel space, and also less clear indication on where the connectors are. You will probably have to pick it up and look at the side to figure out where each connector is many times, before you learn it by heart. Whereas on a rectangular device it would be immediately obvious because the sides look different. Metal case: Possibly sturdier, possibly less EMI emitted, slides around less on the table. Can't fault them much for it, even though it's not really necessary either. That second part of the case is so unnecessary though. They could for example probably have printed that part of the case black using the same process they used for the logo, if they really needed to have that part black. Stickers: Don't mind'em. I put them on the back of my laptop screen, as do other people I know. LEDs: I've tried to come up with a defense for those "sexy" LEDs and this is the best I've got: They may have a bigger and more omnidirectional emission area than 3/5 mm LED. Especially if you're looking at the device from a distance and from a shallow angle, it might appear more clearly. A regular LED would instead emit most it light in a tiny spot upward. But then it would be beneficial to have a thicker line to increase the total area. RJ45 for the programming connection: I think what they're going for is a connector rated for repeated insertion/removal, which would be fair enough. I might have preferred an alternative connector as well, such as an IDC header, just to have something more "hackable". And yes, gimme the frickin' pinout! USB mini B: I don't know, I never really liked USB B big size, because the connector is a bit loosey-goosey. Might be fine, but doesn't sit well with me. USB mini has little plastic alignment pins which might take some stress off the solder joints. Micro USB doesn't most of the time, although there are USB micro connectors you can get that do have pins (as part of the shell) that do mate with a hole in the PCB. High speed programming: That's nice, but why won't they let you set the clock speed directly? Even my USBASP that I bought for $1.50 shipped from China does that. (Very different product, I'm aware.) I don't know how PICs work, but on AVRs, the maximum programming clock speed depends on the clock frequency. You may want to actually optimize the programming clock speed for the specific clock frequency your device is using. This seems like a bit of an omission, especially considering you can set the pull up/down resistor values in great detail. And lastly: 18:56 This is one of the few times mHz is used correctly, ie not as a misspelling of MHz!
That's $260 at Digikey, and they can fuck right off. Not only do we have to tolerate the beancounters taking away every last cent from the electronics, but then they give twice that to the kids with the crayons. I just hope the Atmel stuff will stay around for a while.
"Maintain active connection to hardware tool" WOW that's a great tip, THANKS! PIC32MZ DA not supported as of yet + bugs in ICD4 + bugs in PIC32MZ DA + bugs in HARMONY = MICROCHIP:) Thanks for all your videos, I always enjoy them...a lot!!!:)
Operational bugs, prioritization of flashy graphics over functionality, and odd design decisions? I am glad to see the Microchip programming tools are catching up to their Harmony design principles.
Stupid case, stupid stickers. Microchip please listen to Mike. We would like meaningful leds with labels and pinout on the case please. And good ol' .1" output not this RJ interface rubbish or at least a supplied converter.
Right, rather than flashing colors and printing a guide to what each color means, why not just have a simple LED for each mode. Cheaper and easier to use.
Yes, since you're now confusing me having to know what the colour of each led is, and which way my OCD4 is pointing, why not whilst making fancy etchmark on the top, add DEVICE and HOST to your scribbles,and a nice red is x and blue is y, etc, etc... you know... the USABILITY stuff? ffs! Then you'll even have space on the bottom for a nice pinout for the RJ45 connector! :-O That is, of course, if you want to stay fancy, and not go to the ultimate usability factor... one LED per mode... then you'll also be disability friendly! duh!
My ICD2 is still alive long after its usefulness has ended. It was built well enough for the hundreds of boards I've used it to program. Conversely, the Real ICE I used for most of my debugging and which costs much more than the ICD is built into a standard black plastic box.
I just got my ICD4, some 2.5 years after Mike's video and mine is built quite a bit differently. The only metal parts in mine are the base and the gray, brushed plate on top. There is no separate metal ring for the sides and black metal piece on the top anymore - it's now a single plastic molding for the sides and the black top part. I don't know whether the price has since dropped or you're just paying the same for a bit less so no comments on that. I also don't know at what point the changes have been introduced and whether it was for a cost-cutting or other reasons. For what it's worth, to me the Mike's one does seem to have some prototype'y qualities; nuts and bolts sticking out and all.
It would be nice to see how stable the connection is! I work on power electronics and the ICD3 loses synchronisation and dies all the time. If a contactor 10 m away switches it dies. I switched to TI Delfino line + XDS100v3 and I had no problems. A guy in the university lab told me that the only time they had problems with TI was when they made enough EMI to also kill the usb mouses, but for the ICD 3 to die all you need to do is close the door angerly :D
I've been struggling to debug a motor drive system I've designed based on a PIC, whenever the ICD3 is connected it dies whenever the motor stops, guessing it's the same EMI sensitivity problem
I like getting stickers with my products, no matter how ridiculous. I never use them nor would I want to, but for some reason I kinda like it. Maybe that's just me. Plus it's like a few cents max, so the stickers really aren't dragging any production value down.
I like the new case design not because of its wanky design, but because of the weight (as you've mentioned, it slides a lot less in the desk) and mostly because it feels a lot more substantial and would theoretically last a longer time than the plastic one, but that's surely more of a psychological thing than reality.
The ICD4 seems way too heavy: The flimsy mini-USB cable and 5-pin programming cable aren't pulling heavily on that thing (compare e.g. with the Saleae Logic with 16 pairs of signal input and a shielded USB3.0 cable) so the weight is not an advantage. Also, when I'm doing development at work, I have my programming interfaces lay right on / near my PCBs so that the programming cables can be short. Having something made out of non-conducting plastic lowers the risk of shorts.
Round? Puck? It doesn't fit well in storage, on the desk, or anywhere. It's been this shape since ICD2. Why? Speed: still MPLAB X compile/program/debug cycle is horrendously slow compared to MPLAB 8. Why? Stickers are clearly for OWON handheld scope carrying briefcase to take on site. Why? Definitely a nice load of marketing designer wankery wank nonsense, style over substance. Maybe Microchip have hired Juicero's industrial designers for some over-design goodness. Nothing to disagree with in this vid, my thoughts are reflected.
For the LEDs, can you configure them to pulse to your music, or have them do different colors to represent the health status of a videogame character while you are gaming?
We have around 6 of the ICD3s at work, and some days it's hard to know where the programming issue lies. It's an absolute pain in the ass, coupled with the MP Lab X memory leaks and the debugging PIC32MZ bug ('failed to program' if you hit the debugger again which hasn't been fixed for almost a year now), makes for colourful words to be said daily.
They got most of the engineers while said engineers were in school. So some of it might be loyalty, some of it might be comfort zone. But their tools are now so over priced we cannot afford the tools. The STM32 tools are 1/10th of the price (and falling) so why bother with Microchip
They should have used an ethernet connection to the computer, and have an optional wireless module so that you could just plug power cable in the icd4 and use it, or have room for 4 AA batteries or some lithium battery and an on/off button
it could be anything wireless, for example bluetooth something. Have some kind of usb stick type of thing that normally stays in a slot in your ICD.. when you want to use it, pull out the usb stick thing (dongle) from ICD and stick into one of your usb ports and bam, drivers automatically loaded and connection made to your icd. When you're done, pull the stick from the computer and plug it back in your ICD... or just leave it in the back of your pc. or with regular wireless, have a button like the classic WPS on the icd... push the button and it auto detects your network and you're done. When you want to, you just turn on the ICD (either from battery or dc power) and you have the connection created automatically without extra cable. The USB connection is fine and i can see it would be convenient as it gives both power and decent fast transfer speeds and would make real time debugging easy. but if you wouldn't have to worry about the mini usb breaking or carrying extra usb cables with you... would be convenient. As for ethernet you wouldn't need switches or routers, a lot of modern motherboards have two ethernet cards, or a developer/programmer could easily buy a second ethernet card for a few dollars and shove it in the pc. The only issue would be with laptops that don't have ethernet ports anymore (but most have wireless or bluetooth)
You could make it that it detects if there is a DHCP on the network and if there isn't, it will turn itself into a DHCP. But honestly, I think USB makes more sense. By that I mean full size USB B
I've been programming PICs for some 20 odd years now, I own several of their earlier programmers Picstart, PM2/3, ICD2/3, Pickit 2/3 etc and i have to say i completely agree with Mike on all points. As for the stickers, the only useful ones are the ones we all have to write out ourselves with the pinouts on them and stick them to the case for easy future reference. Apparently we now need LED colour reference stickers too! I've never been a fan of the round design it makes it look like a toy I.M.O. Square/Rectangular works just fine.
I'm using a < $2 PIC, with my own firmware and host software and can program and verify the complete 256/3K code and boot section of a PIC32MX170 in about 4.1 seconds from go to woe. I wonder how much the stickers cost. :)
Thank you for this very useful review. What can you tell about ICD4 now, in 2019? Is it still slower than ICD3 in some cases? Should I go for ICD3 or ICD4 for PIC18 and PIC32MM?
Would you not be angry when a previously decent item was taken over by marketing wank and ruined in the next iteration? Say this scenario, your favorite electronic item, it's broken now, and you have to buy the next one up. But it's rubbish and only looks good...
I bought the Pickit 4, and the very thing I look for is the pinout and I also have to go and find it online. They should just put a copy of the quick start guide inside that large box they supply with the product. Surely that must be easier than creating an aesthetically pleasing case for the main product.
What I like is that excepting the micro usb is berry tuff, i compare whit my old pickit 3 that suddenly is stop working from nothing. What I’m not understanding is that, are you using TCP IP protocol communication for communicating whit an pin debugger so you can be able to communicate and programing multiple microchip at the same time whit an a ethernet switch, or are they using the hardware for Rj45 just to transmit directly the data like normal wires?
Two universal laws... nothing travels faster than the speed of light and form always follows FUNCTION :) I feel your pain. Thank you for the video. Cheers!
I think a nice 3D printed, rectangular replacement enclosure is in order, suitably adorned with one of those handy stickers.. And the original metal enclosure - an ash-tray for Christmas for one of my Apple loving friends ;-)
I came into PIC programming using a Real ICE. This has handled all the PIC processors I have thrown at it, it's in a square case so I've never used anything else. What is the difference between the Real ICE and a ICD3?
I get they want flash and branding but most of the things I have the cases were lost years ago. The ttl/uart board that I incased in clear shrink tube only got a "case" because thats what was laying around. If it flashes my routers thats all I care about. Nice video, I appreciate the time you took to do a review.
Do I detect a whiff of annoyance about those fripperies, at the cost of functionality and labelling? Too right! Please let us know about your mileage, a few months down the road. Thanks Mike.
They do seem to live in their own little world, in which ARM doesn't exist. CrossWorks + ST-LinkV2 + STM32 is so much faster to program and debug, it's like they were developed during different centuries. On other planets. Some PICs do have compelling advantages; 5V operation and the superbly versatile CTMU are particularly useful to me. For everything else, it's STM32 all the way.
So there are some edge cases to use their parts still then. Still their time would have been better spent designing JTAG or SWD debug hardware into their higher end parts and contributing support for it to OpenOCD.
I'm with AndyC772, some of the PICs have very unique peripherals like the CTMU, which is an analog time integrator and can asynchronously measure events to under a ns resolution. I like STM32s, but if I need glitch free cycle accurate timing, I'm not sure any of the ARMs can deliver equivalent functionality as some of the older 8-bit designs.
I was thinking more of the MIPS based stuff to be honest. Anyhow as long as there are reasons to still use their stuff fair enough. I think there will come a day when they have to offer ARM cortex parts with their peripherals like Renesas has done with some of their parts that replace SuperH lines.
What are the benefits of the ICD over the Pickit that makes it 4-5 times the price? Have the bugs been fixed now? How does this compare to the new Pickit 4?
Seems to me the case and stickers are things that will appeal to uni students buying their first set of tools. If you're Microchip getting students onboard early is probably a big goal.
Probably the same reason they include the otherwise useless "test" board - so a student can take it out of the box, plug it in and "have a go" with the software etc.
I'd be happy to save 50€ and buy a devtool with a cheap plastic enclosure. What's your opinion on the overall speed of MPLAB X? On my PC at work, it's so painfully slow that the ICD3 times out occasionally. I spend more time waiting and restarting MPLAB than writing actual code.
I like the wieght the metal case has. My dinky plastic jlink has to be screwed onto my desk to keep the relatively heavy usb cables pulling my DUT onto the floor.
maybe very carefully remove the case without marring it and SEND IT BACK for a rebate, so they can put it on another unit where someone wants that case. They need to make a DEVELOPER EDITION or this developer tool oO. The sad thing is, if you look at this from the viewpoint of someone who does like fancy elegant apple style cases.... then its a very stupid 1990s looking case. They can't even do bullshit right.
I do like the heavier weight of the ICD4, stops it from sliding around but a weight at the bottom does just the same thing without all the pain in the ass manufacturing cost
I've used a succession of CCS ICD-U40, ICD-U64, PicKit3 and currently ICD3 and the ICD3 works for me. At the point ICD3 no longer works it might be time to be considering which microcontroller to target.... unless ICD4 were super cheap.... we'll see.
couple of thoughts.. 1)micro usb is supposed to be stronger/last longer. i have yet to have a problem with the connector on multiple phones (problem is always the crappy cable). Over the years i broke many mini usb cables and connectors, also those a couple of pickit 3. Micro USB "clicks", it doesn't detatch itself with little force, it's easie to have a cable always attached and remove on the "A" side Also, today you tend to have many micro usb cables laying around 2)Do you like the new style? I do.. i have many microchip demo boards and programmers from various era, i really like their latest design (plain, matte colours) 3)I'd like to get one in the future, we have PK2s, a ICD2 and many PK3s.. never felt the ICD3 was a good investment.. but for now i'll have to wait that they add dspics with codeguard. they sai it's in the works..
As long as it doesn't constantly keep changing the firmware every time I plug the bloody thing in like the ICD3 I'm happy. I just don't understand why the ICD3 has to spend so much timer buggering about! I think it's quite sexy and what's wrong with a bit of a wank now and again. What's the cost ?
That's a big advantage for me as I work with a variety of PICs. It is sometimes painful to Wait for it to upgrade. I think it would also upgrade when moving from one computer to another as used to move my one around. Thanks Regards Chris
I hate this RJ11 connector on my ICD3. And this RJ45 connector on the ICD4 doesn't seem to be a better solution. Why can't they put a Wago quick connector or a screw connector instead... silly.
"Because it's uglier than the RJ45 (doesn't go with the sleek round aluminum and stylish lightbar). Also market recognition is important. We need to distinguish ourselfs." is what MC would say.
"Maintain active connection to hardware tool" I don't believe it! It's always annoyed me how MPLAB X had to connect to the device every time while MPLAB 8 did not - who knew this was made into an option that was default as OFF! Grrrrr Microchip!!
Well on my desk that sucker would short out something on the first day. We work on bare pcb-s you know... I don`t need an other factor to kill the hardware. Plastic is to isolate...
Have the pic chips dropped in price any yet. I want to learn but I have really low end 8s. I know you have to start somewhere but as a hobbyist I find myself learning the basics of stuff then stopping dure to kick of one resource or another. I've taken to buying text books now like in university only without the dread
With you 100% Mike. 'Wankery' sums it up very well. I have such trouble with ICD3 and MPLABX (power limits, endpoint fails, having to restart app etc. etc.) that I thought I'd research whether ICD4 would help. Seems pretty clear that Microchip are just a joke and it's time to look into uC makers who prioritise reliability and ease of use. Thanks for the video.
I suspect marketing is trying to aim the ICD4 at students and hobbyists. It's pretty clever the way the top can be screwed off so a youngster can appreciate the engineering that's gone into it.
For me the state of the art programmer is AVR dragon. Let me tell you why. - Small form factor, about a 1/2 the size of that icd 4 - Normal connectors, just a 0.1" pin header isp connector (and other headers for JTAG and HVSP). Apart from that a small onboard power supply and a foorptrint to fit a ZIF so you can quickly whack a chip and test it. - The pinouts are printed on the PCB itself (although in the bottom side :/ ) - No led wankery (just a single 2-color diode) - Stylish "case", which is just a crimson paper box with a gold dragon motive printed, Zero additional cost! I dont particularlyt like the white round plastic cases/chassis whick look like medical equipment end of rant ;)
i know someone who would love the new case ... he keeps his desk modern and very clean and hates how ugly programmers are But out of all the engineers i know he is the ONLY one who keeps a neat desk ...
I'll take function over form any day of the week. But here's what I think the reasoning for that case might have been: 1. The vast majority of purchases will be businesses. 2. The majority of individuals who want a cheaper tool will buy the PICKIT. 3. In the world of businesses, it matters to Managers and other types what the dev tools look like. And a modern lab environment with sexy tools is a boon for them; they take their customers on a tour of the lab, and they sell the design experience of the Engineering group. Sexy lab = competent design group = happy customers. 4. It helps for Microchip if the sexy stuff has their name splashed across it. Personally, I'd happily pay £40 less and have an educational edition of the ICD4 which is just in a plastic case like my ICD3. But they won't release one because: 1. Engineers are frugal beings by their nature. The sexy lab is a Management objective. The Engineers will buy what works and what is cost effective. So now nobody is buying the sexy ICD4 and it won't stand out anymore in the sexy lab. The most annoying thing about the case from what I can see is that after all that over-engineered LED strip, you can't tell what the heck is what. Why isn't it labelled? At least with the individual LEDs you can tell which function applies to which illumination. All I see here is a "glowing thing". How am I supposed to know what it means? Finally I share your frustration about the lack of pinout labelling. That even bugs me on the PICKIT. Sometimes I can't remember which way around PGC and PGD is and I have to look it up. Annoying!
Micro USB is actually more robust than Mini USB with about double the number of insertion cycles, and at this point is probably more ubiquitous than Mini USB. I'd still rather have a proper Type B connector though.
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"No pinout! Put the bloody pinouts of the connector on the unit..." Mike sounded like Dave Jones but in a more gentlemanly accent.
hahahhahah, exactly!
The "wankery" part as well. And at 9:50 I could almost hear he saying "that's all she wrote"
I don't like the metal case idea.
There is enough power supply's and more or less isolated cables laying around, or even laying the adapter on top of circuit boards. No need for another thing that conducts!
Atmel processor in a Microchip programmer!
I know they own Atmel now, but that's hilarious!
Noooooo, being an Atmel fanboy. Tragic.
Apparently (from the user guide) it's a PIC32C, they've just not got around to changing the label yet
So it seems Microchip are basically just rebranding Atmel ATSAM Cortex-M based microcontrollers as PIC32C. Which, naturally, has a completely different architecture and peripheral set from PIC32 because they're really ATSAM chips despite the name.
oh here you are Dave! :) I thought you'd be in on this one.
I'm so glad I have not gotten into ARM yet and will be avoiding both Atmel and Microshit, clearly microchip bought atmel to take over their ranges and quietly ditch their own crap.
They should put the next one in a spherical case.
Make it from a pair of titanium hemispheres with a clear-coated copper center band, with lasered logos (for style, obviously), and a pair of polycarbonate trim rings, each with their own set of 8 RGB LEDs (that's 16 total, btw). They should change the PC port to an Apple Lightning port (it's the posh port!), and they should _absolutely_ stick with the RJ-45 connector for the programmer port, because it is _obviously_ the most convenient and useful thing _EVER_ (still don't bother to include a breakout board though, LOL). Last thing... Rather than _just_ unscrewing the hemispheres, It needs to be a puzzle box. #TheImportantStuff
Don't give them ideas
@richfiles Hahahaha, just brilliant ;-)
With a couple of transparent 10" plastic needles poking out, so they have flashy features for using Blinkenlights. And these needles have to sit in there loose, so you can pull them out an knit a jersey with them while you wait for the programmer to chooch. ^^)
Warranty void if any of them break or get lost, of course.
Did anyone remember 'The gamesphere '?
Here we go again Microchip, Richard Head from the marketing department at work here for sure. I completely agree with Mike.
I'm a long term microchip designer, stop the marketing BS and make a well engineered product for engineers to use, lose the stupid packaging, give us seperate clearly labelled indicators and please print the pinout on the case.
Stop being complete tools and make good and complete tools for us to use.
Thanks Mike, full respect.
The spring loaded lug which retains a USB mini is in the socket, so the soldered-to-the-pcb socket is only rated for 500 mate cycles. The springs which retain a micro USB are on the cable, so the socket is rated for 10,000 mate cycles. The mini is mostly considered deprecated for new designs because of this. Interestingly the B connector has the same problem. The micro is actually the best choice for long term reliability if your going to be plugging and unplugging often (it was designed for the smart phone market).
but in practice we all broken at least one usb micro, not so true for mini
I like stickers.
you can't be interested by this uncle
What is doing my weird uncle in my geek uncle`s vidjeo ???
Yea stickers are fine... costs almost nothing although I do understand the rant about the overly engineered case though. A waste when your customers don't care at all about that stuff.
AvE working hard today, eh?
yeah, and he doesnt like the puck. get him!
"Just stop it!" -- never a truer word spoken.
Fancy seeing you here!
I've been a subscriber to Mike's channel for a long time -- and it's a very small internet so it's funny how many familiar faces you see in unlikely places eh? ;-)
Hehe , guess so.
There is also Ave and EEvblog here.
Quite the mashup
1. Develop competent 10 bucks PCB.
2. Design 90 bucks RGB and aluminium alloy madness around it.
3. Profit.
4. (Bonus) Stickers!
How long has the ICD3 been around for? Seems like a decade or something.
Since 2008.
The most important feature for me is that the case comes in fun colors like salsa red and mandarin orange. It would also be cool if you could put on different color cases maybe pink jewels or make it into the shape of emoticons. Another great feature is stickers that I can stick on my car window or laptop so people know I am technically savvy.
I couldn't agree more. I'll take function over form any day of the week as long as it's not my day off. I think you're right about the USB connector too. The larger type B connectors are far more robust and as much abuse as some of those take it's the better choice.
ExStatic Bass : The problem with full size type B connectors is that you can quite easily force them in upside down, probably ruining the device due to 5V going where it should't. Try it, and you'll see.
I wonder if they put any thought on usability of that crappy rgb interface - colourblind people will have a hell of a time compared to the ICD3 that had separate indicators
Round shape: Why!? Worse use of panel space, and also less clear indication on where the connectors are. You will probably have to pick it up and look at the side to figure out where each connector is many times, before you learn it by heart. Whereas on a rectangular device it would be immediately obvious because the sides look different.
Metal case: Possibly sturdier, possibly less EMI emitted, slides around less on the table. Can't fault them much for it, even though it's not really necessary either. That second part of the case is so unnecessary though. They could for example probably have printed that part of the case black using the same process they used for the logo, if they really needed to have that part black.
Stickers: Don't mind'em. I put them on the back of my laptop screen, as do other people I know.
LEDs: I've tried to come up with a defense for those "sexy" LEDs and this is the best I've got: They may have a bigger and more omnidirectional emission area than 3/5 mm LED. Especially if you're looking at the device from a distance and from a shallow angle, it might appear more clearly. A regular LED would instead emit most it light in a tiny spot upward. But then it would be beneficial to have a thicker line to increase the total area.
RJ45 for the programming connection: I think what they're going for is a connector rated for repeated insertion/removal, which would be fair enough. I might have preferred an alternative connector as well, such as an IDC header, just to have something more "hackable". And yes, gimme the frickin' pinout!
USB mini B: I don't know, I never really liked USB B big size, because the connector is a bit loosey-goosey. Might be fine, but doesn't sit well with me. USB mini has little plastic alignment pins which might take some stress off the solder joints. Micro USB doesn't most of the time, although there are USB micro connectors you can get that do have pins (as part of the shell) that do mate with a hole in the PCB.
High speed programming: That's nice, but why won't they let you set the clock speed directly? Even my USBASP that I bought for $1.50 shipped from China does that. (Very different product, I'm aware.) I don't know how PICs work, but on AVRs, the maximum programming clock speed depends on the clock frequency. You may want to actually optimize the programming clock speed for the specific clock frequency your device is using. This seems like a bit of an omission, especially considering you can set the pull up/down resistor values in great detail.
And lastly: 18:56 This is one of the few times mHz is used correctly, ie not as a misspelling of MHz!
Of course the silly thing is that with the round PCB, they could put some RJ11-header breakouts in the panel waste for free.
mikeselectricstuff Btw, is that RJ45 backward pin compatible with the old RJ11 pinout when inserted as shown in the video?
Yes
That's $260 at Digikey, and they can fuck right off.
Not only do we have to tolerate the beancounters taking away every last cent from the electronics, but then they give twice that to the kids with the crayons.
I just hope the Atmel stuff will stay around for a while.
"Maintain active connection to hardware tool" WOW that's a great tip, THANKS!
PIC32MZ DA not supported as of yet + bugs in ICD4 + bugs in PIC32MZ DA + bugs in HARMONY = MICROCHIP:)
Thanks for all your videos, I always enjoy them...a lot!!!:)
Yeah but who actually uses Harmony? I avoid that bloat if at all possible.
Yaknow!! I was just think about you yesterday. Thinking "huh mikeselectricstuff hasn't posted in a while" glad to see another vid!
Operational bugs, prioritization of flashy graphics over functionality, and odd design decisions? I am glad to see the Microchip programming tools are catching up to their Harmony design principles.
Oh wow. Crimping a ribbon cable into RJ45 plugs. Now there's an idea I need to remember. Clever.
So, what do you really think of the case?
Ding ding, *round ONE*
it's tragic
Stupid case, stupid stickers. Microchip please listen to Mike. We would like meaningful leds with labels and pinout on the case please. And good ol' .1" output not this RJ interface rubbish or at least a supplied converter.
Right, rather than flashing colors and printing a guide to what each color means, why not just have a simple LED for each mode. Cheaper and easier to use.
Yes, since you're now confusing me having to know what the colour of each led is, and which way my OCD4 is pointing, why not whilst making fancy etchmark on the top, add DEVICE and HOST to your scribbles,and a nice red is x and blue is y, etc, etc... you know... the USABILITY stuff? ffs! Then you'll even have space on the bottom for a nice pinout for the RJ45 connector! :-O That is, of course, if you want to stay fancy, and not go to the ultimate usability factor... one LED per mode... then you'll also be disability friendly! duh!
My ICD2 is still alive long after its usefulness has ended. It was built well enough for the hundreds of boards I've used it to program. Conversely, the Real ICE I used for most of my debugging and which costs much more than the ICD is built into a standard black plastic box.
I just got my ICD4, some 2.5 years after Mike's video and mine is built quite a bit differently. The only metal parts in mine are the base and the gray, brushed plate on top. There is no separate metal ring for the sides and black metal piece on the top anymore - it's now a single plastic molding for the sides and the black top part. I don't know whether the price has since dropped or you're just paying the same for a bit less so no comments on that. I also don't know at what point the changes have been introduced and whether it was for a cost-cutting or other reasons. For what it's worth, to me the Mike's one does seem to have some prototype'y qualities; nuts and bolts sticking out and all.
It would be nice to see how stable the connection is!
I work on power electronics and the ICD3 loses synchronisation and dies all the time. If a contactor 10 m away switches it dies. I switched to TI Delfino line + XDS100v3 and I had no problems.
A guy in the university lab told me that the only time they had problems with TI was when they made enough EMI to also kill the usb mouses, but for the ICD 3 to die all you need to do is close the door angerly :D
I've been struggling to debug a motor drive system I've designed based on a PIC, whenever the ICD3 is connected it dies whenever the motor stops, guessing it's the same EMI sensitivity problem
I like getting stickers with my products, no matter how ridiculous. I never use them nor would I want to, but for some reason I kinda like it. Maybe that's just me. Plus it's like a few cents max, so the stickers really aren't dragging any production value down.
I like the new case design not because of its wanky design, but because of the weight (as you've mentioned, it slides a lot less in the desk) and mostly because it feels a lot more substantial and would theoretically last a longer time than the plastic one, but that's surely more of a psychological thing than reality.
does it make coffee and write code for you? seems like an insane amount of hardware to get a bit of code in and out of an MCU
Thank god my ICD2 does everything I need. And it still has the 6/5 pin header!
The ICD4 seems way too heavy: The flimsy mini-USB cable and 5-pin programming cable aren't pulling heavily on that thing (compare e.g. with the Saleae Logic with 16 pairs of signal input and a shielded USB3.0 cable) so the weight is not an advantage.
Also, when I'm doing development at work, I have my programming interfaces lay right on / near my PCBs so that the programming cables can be short. Having something made out of non-conducting plastic lowers the risk of shorts.
Mike's new episode of You know what really grinds my gears?
Round? Puck? It doesn't fit well in storage, on the desk, or anywhere. It's been this shape since ICD2. Why?
Speed: still MPLAB X compile/program/debug cycle is horrendously slow compared to MPLAB 8. Why?
Stickers are clearly for OWON handheld scope carrying briefcase to take on site. Why?
Definitely a nice load of marketing designer wankery wank nonsense, style over substance.
Maybe Microchip have hired Juicero's industrial designers for some over-design goodness.
Nothing to disagree with in this vid, my thoughts are reflected.
I feel better about still using v8.70 now. :)
For the LEDs, can you configure them to pulse to your music, or have them do different colors to represent the health status of a videogame character while you are gaming?
Alexa, flash the firmware!
Programatór I wonder if it still has the crappy firmware download when switching device families.
No - according to the manual, this is no longer necessary
Same shape right enough
We have around 6 of the ICD3s at work, and some days it's hard to know where the programming issue lies. It's an absolute pain in the ass, coupled with the MP Lab X memory leaks and the debugging PIC32MZ bug ('failed to program' if you hit the debugger again which hasn't been fixed for almost a year now), makes for colourful words to be said daily.
i am surprised that Microchip still exists after lots of fails in marketing and designing.
They got most of the engineers while said engineers were in school. So some of it might be loyalty, some of it might be comfort zone.
But their tools are now so over priced we cannot afford the tools. The STM32 tools are 1/10th of the price (and falling) so why bother with Microchip
Metal case likely reduces potential EMI. Might even protect it from EMP.
Sharp hole for LEDs can be used for cutting potatoes.
Would you consider making a video to show your workflow? Software, hardware, process, etc
I have a video recorded of a complete PCB layout but needs a lot more adding & a lot of editing.
Would really appreciate seeing that, Mike.
They should have used an ethernet connection to the computer, and have an optional wireless module so that you could just plug power cable in the icd4 and use it, or have room for 4 AA batteries or some lithium battery and an on/off button
Yay. More Internet of Things. Then your microprocessor programmer can become part of a botnet too!
so instead of plugging in a USB cable and you are good to got, you want to add a few ethernet cables, a router and a powersupply?
it could be anything wireless, for example bluetooth something. Have some kind of usb stick type of thing that normally stays in a slot in your ICD.. when you want to use it, pull out the usb stick thing (dongle) from ICD and stick into one of your usb ports and bam, drivers automatically loaded and connection made to your icd. When you're done, pull the stick from the computer and plug it back in your ICD... or just leave it in the back of your pc.
or with regular wireless, have a button like the classic WPS on the icd... push the button and it auto detects your network and you're done. When you want to, you just turn on the ICD (either from battery or dc power) and you have the connection created automatically without extra cable.
The USB connection is fine and i can see it would be convenient as it gives both power and decent fast transfer speeds and would make real time debugging easy. but if you wouldn't have to worry about the mini usb breaking or carrying extra usb cables with you... would be convenient.
As for ethernet you wouldn't need switches or routers, a lot of modern motherboards have two ethernet cards, or a developer/programmer could easily buy a second ethernet card for a few dollars and shove it in the pc. The only issue would be with laptops that don't have ethernet ports anymore (but most have wireless or bluetooth)
You could make it that it detects if there is a DHCP on the network and if there isn't, it will turn itself into a DHCP. But honestly, I think USB makes more sense. By that I mean full size USB B
I have a lot more micro/mini cables laying around because that is what everything uses now, a full size I'd have to go digging to find
Not sure i seen a proper Mike Rant before, I have to admit to liking it :)
Thanks - Greetings from Poland
I like the metal case idea.
I've been programming PICs for some 20 odd years now, I own several of their earlier programmers Picstart, PM2/3, ICD2/3, Pickit 2/3 etc and i have to say i completely agree with Mike on all points. As for the stickers, the only useful ones are the ones we all have to write out ourselves with the pinouts on them and stick them to the case for easy future reference. Apparently we now need LED colour reference stickers too! I've never been a fan of the round design it makes it look like a toy I.M.O. Square/Rectangular works just fine.
I'm using a < $2 PIC, with my own firmware and host software and can program and verify the complete 256/3K code and boot section of a PIC32MX170 in about 4.1 seconds from go to woe. I wonder how much the stickers cost. :)
Thank you for this very useful review.
What can you tell about ICD4 now, in 2019? Is it still slower than ICD3 in some cases? Should I go for ICD3 or ICD4 for PIC18 and PIC32MM?
Good to see you back mike
Based on this review, I will not be purchasing the ICD4. Thanks for the review Mike! Saved me a bundle of cash
Mike Ya Legend!
Great vid as always, but we need more of them, now!!!
You seemed angry while making this video!
Would you not be angry when a previously decent item was taken over by marketing wank and ruined in the next iteration? Say this scenario, your favorite electronic item, it's broken now, and you have to buy the next one up. But it's rubbish and only looks good...
I bought the Pickit 4, and the very thing I look for is the pinout and I also have to go and find it online. They should just put a copy of the quick start guide inside that large box they supply with the product. Surely that must be easier than creating an aesthetically pleasing case for the main product.
Best ICD 4 video on youtube
What I like is that excepting the micro usb is berry tuff, i compare whit my old pickit 3 that suddenly is stop working from nothing.
What I’m not understanding is that, are you using TCP IP protocol communication for communicating whit an pin debugger so you can be able to communicate and programing multiple microchip at the same time whit an a ethernet switch, or are they using the hardware for Rj45 just to transmit directly the data like normal wires?
Great video review Mike! Thanks for sharing it!
Two universal laws... nothing travels faster than the speed of light and form always follows FUNCTION :) I feel your pain. Thank you for the video. Cheers!
I think a nice 3D printed, rectangular replacement enclosure is in order, suitably adorned with one of those handy stickers.. And the original metal enclosure - an ash-tray for Christmas for one of my Apple loving friends ;-)
I came into PIC programming using a Real ICE. This has handled all the PIC processors I have thrown at it, it's in a square case so I've never used anything else. What is the difference between the Real ICE and a ICD3?
I get they want flash and branding but most of the things I have the cases were lost years ago.
The ttl/uart board that I incased in clear shrink tube only got a "case" because thats what was laying around. If it flashes my routers thats all I care about.
Nice video, I appreciate the time you took to do a review.
Do I detect a whiff of annoyance about those fripperies, at the cost of functionality and labelling? Too right! Please let us know about your mileage, a few months down the road. Thanks Mike.
Is there any real reason to use microchips higher end parts over any vendors Cortex-M? parts that are fully debuggable with a
They do seem to live in their own little world, in which ARM doesn't exist.
CrossWorks + ST-LinkV2 + STM32 is so much faster to program and debug, it's like they were developed during different centuries. On other planets.
Some PICs do have compelling advantages; 5V operation and the superbly versatile CTMU are particularly useful to me. For everything else, it's STM32 all the way.
So there are some edge cases to use their parts still then.
Still their time would have been better spent designing JTAG or SWD debug hardware into their higher end parts and contributing support for it to OpenOCD.
I'm with AndyC772, some of the PICs have very unique peripherals like the CTMU, which is an analog time integrator and can asynchronously measure events to under a ns resolution. I like STM32s, but if I need glitch free cycle accurate timing, I'm not sure any of the ARMs can deliver equivalent functionality as some of the older 8-bit designs.
I was thinking more of the MIPS based stuff to be honest. Anyhow as long as there are reasons to still use their stuff fair enough. I think there will come a day when they have to offer ARM cortex parts with their peripherals like Renesas has done with some of their parts that replace SuperH lines.
$50 for a programmer? I use a $3 JTAG SWD dongle the size of a flashdrive to program and debug my ARM micros and it works great.
What are the benefits of the ICD over the Pickit that makes it 4-5 times the price? Have the bugs been fixed now? How does this compare to the new Pickit 4?
Seems to me the case and stickers are things that will appeal to uni students buying their first set of tools. If you're Microchip getting students onboard early is probably a big goal.
Probably the same reason they include the otherwise useless "test" board - so a student can take it out of the box, plug it in and "have a go" with the software etc.
I'd be happy to save 50€ and buy a devtool with a cheap plastic enclosure. What's your opinion on the overall speed of MPLAB X? On my PC at work, it's so painfully slow that the ICD3 times out occasionally. I spend more time waiting and restarting MPLAB than writing actual code.
I've been using MPLABX more than 8 recently, not noticed any more crashiness issues with X than 8. Neither perfect but neither terrible either.
I like the wieght the metal case has. My dinky plastic jlink has to be screwed onto my desk to keep the relatively heavy usb cables pulling my DUT onto the floor.
tim turner , how about a cheaper, smaller, lighter, non-conducting plastic case, plus optional housebrick with Velcro™©® & stickers ?
Hell, they could even save extra cost by using generic _hook & loop fasteners_ instead of Velcro™©®
maybe very carefully remove the case without marring it and SEND IT BACK for a rebate, so they can put it on another unit where someone wants that case. They need to make a DEVELOPER EDITION or this developer tool oO.
The sad thing is, if you look at this from the viewpoint of someone who does like fancy elegant apple style cases.... then its a very stupid 1990s looking case. They can't even do bullshit right.
confuseatronica I'm sure the developer edition would somehow cost more.
I do like the heavier weight of the ICD4, stops it from sliding around
but a weight at the bottom does just the same thing without all the pain in the ass manufacturing cost
I've used a succession of CCS ICD-U40, ICD-U64, PicKit3 and currently ICD3 and the ICD3 works for me. At the point ICD3 no longer works it might be time to be considering which microcontroller to target.... unless ICD4 were super cheap.... we'll see.
The Juicero of programmers.
Looks like somebody got a new CAD tool!
couple of thoughts..
1)micro usb is supposed to be stronger/last longer. i have yet to have a problem with the connector on multiple phones (problem is always the crappy cable). Over the years i broke many mini usb cables and connectors, also those a couple of pickit 3. Micro USB "clicks", it doesn't detatch itself with little force, it's easie to have a cable always attached and remove on the "A" side
Also, today you tend to have many micro usb cables laying around
2)Do you like the new style? I do.. i have many microchip demo boards and programmers from various era, i really like their latest design (plain, matte colours)
3)I'd like to get one in the future, we have PK2s, a ICD2 and many PK3s.. never felt the ICD3 was a good investment.. but for now i'll have to wait that they add dspics with codeguard. they sai it's in the works..
"Pure designer wankery" 😂
Personally, I love the metal case.
Mini USB is actually half the insertions of the micro USB, and is all around a far inferior connector.
They are probably just doing it to re-use the same crappy red leads they supply with a pickit 3
that true on paper, personal experience show otherwise, usb mini was the last structurally sound usb connector
As long as it doesn't constantly keep changing the firmware every time I plug the bloody thing in like the ICD3 I'm happy. I just don't understand why the ICD3 has to spend so much timer buggering about! I think it's quite sexy and what's wrong with a bit of a wank now and again. What's the cost ?
One stated advantage of the 4 is it does not need to change firmware when changing devices. Forgot to mention that.
That's a big advantage for me as I work with a variety of PICs. It is sometimes painful to Wait for it to upgrade. I think it would also upgrade when moving from one computer to another as used to move my one around. Thanks Regards Chris
What's the main reason for going to a Pro Mate instead of e.g. a PICKit/ICD?
the esp12 modules has its pinout on the back, printed with silkscreen, for when you deadbug it. Not sure why else it would be on the back..
I hate this RJ11 connector on my ICD3. And this RJ45 connector on the ICD4 doesn't seem to be a better solution. Why can't they put a Wago quick connector or a screw connector instead... silly.
"Because it's uglier than the RJ45 (doesn't go with the sleek round aluminum and stylish lightbar). Also market recognition is important. We need to distinguish ourselfs." is what MC would say.
"Maintain active connection to hardware tool"
I don't believe it! It's always annoyed me how MPLAB X had to connect to the device every time while MPLAB 8 did not - who knew this was made into an option that was default as OFF! Grrrrr Microchip!!
I've always hated the round case and the RJ11 connector.
Why are RGB LEDs obnoxiously infecting everything? And why can I never turn them off?
yes that case is ott and yes having the pinout on the back or the side would be usefull
Well on my desk that sucker would short out something on the first day. We work on bare pcb-s you know... I don`t need an other factor to kill the hardware. Plastic is to isolate...
Have the pic chips dropped in price any yet. I want to learn but I have really low end 8s. I know you have to start somewhere but as a hobbyist I find myself learning the basics of stuff then stopping dure to kick of one resource or another. I've taken to buying text books now like in university only without the dread
Looks to me as if the Keil ARM is Cortex debuggers are a little ahead in some of the points you mentioned Mike, but they are so overly expensive.
I'm curious as to what the FPGA is used for.
With you 100% Mike. 'Wankery' sums it up very well. I have such trouble with ICD3 and MPLABX (power limits, endpoint fails, having to restart app etc. etc.) that I thought I'd research whether ICD4 would help. Seems pretty clear that Microchip are just a joke and it's time to look into uC makers who prioritise reliability and ease of use. Thanks for the video.
1. The new heavy case could be used as paper weight. 2. If something goes wrong, it would hold up to being thrown at something or someone.
I suspect marketing is trying to aim the ICD4 at students and hobbyists. It's pretty clever the way the top can be screwed off so a youngster can appreciate the engineering that's gone into it.
Mike your right flashy packaging doesn't make the product any better.
... *or* any worse. Some people just like the lazy pleasure of grumbling over meaningless nothings.
The old LED were much clearer. Looks like they are going for a market that's more motivated by fashion than engineering.
The "RGB God" strike again dear Mike, like in all others electronics fields markets!
Thanks for the review, nice to see you again!
0/
Microchip is the Apple of the MCU industry.
They're HIGHLY, HIGHLY successful then.
For me the state of the art programmer is AVR dragon. Let me tell you why.
- Small form factor, about a 1/2 the size of that icd 4
- Normal connectors, just a 0.1" pin header isp connector (and other headers for JTAG and HVSP). Apart from that a small onboard power supply and a foorptrint to fit a ZIF so you can quickly whack a chip and test it.
- The pinouts are printed on the PCB itself (although in the bottom side :/ )
- No led wankery (just a single 2-color diode)
- Stylish "case", which is just a crimson paper box with a gold dragon motive printed, Zero additional cost! I dont particularlyt like the white round plastic cases/chassis whick look like medical equipment
end of rant ;)
Love how this video has more views then all videos uploaded by Microchip Technology in the past month combined. Keep up the good work.
I hate the circle, I wish they would fix all the bugs in MPlabx.
8:37 looks like you spilled some superglue on your left index finger, it always happens to me when I try to poke open the tube with a screwdriver.
i know someone who would love the new case ... he keeps his desk modern and very clean and hates how ugly programmers are
But out of all the engineers i know he is the ONLY one who keeps a neat desk ...
I'll take function over form any day of the week.
But here's what I think the reasoning for that case might have been:
1. The vast majority of purchases will be businesses.
2. The majority of individuals who want a cheaper tool will buy the PICKIT.
3. In the world of businesses, it matters to Managers and other types what the dev tools look like. And a modern lab environment with sexy tools is a boon for them; they take their customers on a tour of the lab, and they sell the design experience of the Engineering group. Sexy lab = competent design group = happy customers.
4. It helps for Microchip if the sexy stuff has their name splashed across it.
Personally, I'd happily pay £40 less and have an educational edition of the ICD4 which is just in a plastic case like my ICD3. But they won't release one because:
1. Engineers are frugal beings by their nature. The sexy lab is a Management objective. The Engineers will buy what works and what is cost effective. So now nobody is buying the sexy ICD4 and it won't stand out anymore in the sexy lab.
The most annoying thing about the case from what I can see is that after all that over-engineered LED strip, you can't tell what the heck is what. Why isn't it labelled? At least with the individual LEDs you can tell which function applies to which illumination. All I see here is a "glowing thing". How am I supposed to know what it means?
Finally I share your frustration about the lack of pinout labelling. That even bugs me on the PICKIT. Sometimes I can't remember which way around PGC and PGD is and I have to look it up. Annoying!
Micro USB is actually more robust than Mini USB with about double the number of insertion cycles, and at this point is probably more ubiquitous than Mini USB. I'd still rather have a proper Type B connector though.
Does ICD4 support Power/Energy Profiling?
"Pure Designer Wankery", love it! 7:38
I feel better about not jumping on the ic4. I bouth the IC3 a few weeks ago and was pissed when the IC4 came out.