Just got my 12.3 FSD beta, it is mind-blowing, first time took me to work no intervention no hesitations unprotected left hand turns, right turns on red allowed in florida. Just perfect
Not having cameras around/behind the front lights to better see cross-traffic and having more time to react years after it became evident that Chuck Lefts and blind corners are VERY COMMON is a strange oversight holding back FSD. I understand that 12.3 is a champ at most literal and figurative corner cases, but Chuck is right: there's a fundamental physical limitation of what the car can see no matter the code, and dangerously sticking out the nose to barely see and escape fast moving cross-traffic is setting up FSD for disaster. That's exactly the area where there has not been a step change in passenger comfort, and that's exactly where the system should be triple redundant, but it cannot see what it cannot see with current camera setup. Adding just two up front would not significantly overwhelm HW3/4 nor would need a major FSD rewrite.
Don't understand why Tesla doesn't realise this and change the position. Put the camera in the mirror housing. I think they are so focused on not have something protude on the car design. They are putting that ahead of optimal function
Nice to listen to Chuck explain the camera constraints. Perfect job. Creeping is so inefficient and frustrating that the car stops more than once at stop signs. Chuck explains it spot on.
He's wrong about parallax: a moving object or a moving camera have the same effect. So, one side camera moving, or an object in motion, allow for parallax. Also, roads are not designed for people leaning forward in their seats. Many intersections aren't even designed for cars, specially in Europe. What people do now, in very tight intersections (worse case scenarios), is "show" the car front and start creeping while waiting for some input (either a car horn or lights signal if dark). Other drivers KNOW, when they see a car front, that the other driver can't see them. They either slow down if they can to allow for the creep to happen safely, or honk/flash the horn/lights to inform the driver he should stop. So, the main feature I would add is a microphone. And since a speaker can be used as microphone, i guess the outer speaker in Teslas may already be used to retrieve some info for this. As someone living in Europe, with roads adapted since 800 years ago from old roman horse pathways or other pre-car and pre-carriage eras, I would say no city is 100% ready for cars, and people have to do some shenanigans to make it work (lean forward, open the window to hear better, honk, etc) BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY people have to be a bit more sensible & understand priority/"right of way" is a right, NOT an obligation. So, stepping on the accelerator towards people on purpose just because they have the right of way is just plain stupid & should be criminalized. Happens to me all the time, and i'm not a robot...
It has to stop by law. Once at the line, and once at the "creep limit". Humans do that too, just not fully stopping. And v12 is far better at this too, even the full stop is barely noticeable (at least on video).
@@ptviwatcher I have to agree with you, people do accomodate other drivers 'creeping out' on blind corners all the time, as they expect other drivers to accomodate them. I'm in UK and many, many of our local 'back lanes' (drivable alleys between rows of houses) are completely blind at the end. No amount of neck craning can help as there are often 7 foot high solid brick walls with 90 degree corders obstructing the view on both sides. One has to creep forward slowly and show the nose of the car to get out. The car will have to do this, and copy the behaviour of us humans. Having cameras even mounted on the fenders won't 100% solve this, as many of these junctions are completely square on to the oncoming traffic (no buffer of a pathway).
I just received the 12.3 update and have had our Model 3 for 6 years. Wow ! This new version allowed us to complete a 15 mile urban journey both ways with NO interventions. Version 12.3 felt like a human was driving the car, it’s hard to describe but the trip was far less mechanical to the extent that several times the car actually hit some of the lane dots, just like a human.
Yup, no hype. I just started driving v12.3, and have gone 16 urban miles with just 1 intervention, which was a real edge case. Before, it would be roughly 1 intervention every 1-2 city miles, so easily a 10X improvement. It feels even better because it drives so smoothly and human-like. One thing that reviewers don't mention is that v12.3 basically drives like a grandma - very slow creeping and driving at slow speeds, which is a little annoying but feels very safe and predictable. Then, once up to speed, it's normal and great. Unfortunately, I think what Chuck says at 5:40 is really important. I wish Tesla/Elon clearly addressed it.
@@tomwojcik7896 , yea, agree, I’m 71 but I must admit 12.3 drives pretty conservatively, pretty much at speed limits, which in California it’s rare to drive so correctly.
What's the change/deviation? aren't the only cameras that can see cross traffic still on the B-pillar, though? Tesla engineers must have thought about and tested these scenarios, but I haven't heard anyone from Tesla address it.
Got 12.3 last night and it’s been amazing! Finally fsd is taking round about a properly. Not jumping into side lanes on country roads, not randomly signaling, and not phantom braking (yet)
Chuck is 100% correct on the camera location. Having half the car sticking out in the intersection to see cross-traffic misses too many opportunities to do it right.
@@shdmd2118 The center console camera cannot see far enough to the left and right to see oncoming traffic. The wide angle camera frustum is literally restricted by the housing.
I still find that all of the discussions around self driving and debate about whether FSD is level 2 or 3 or higher, seem to come from the perspective, that a qualified driver is always available in the drivers seat to take over if needed. That mentality is therefore assuming the person available to takeover is: an experienced licenced driver, not a child, not elderly, not vision impaired, fully insured for driving that car, wide awake, not drunk, etc, etc. For self driving software to truly add proper value to a vehicle and owner, it has to not need a fully qualified driver to always be sitting in the car watching it and helping it out of a bind. Otherwise it is absolutely forever just a 'driver assistance' tool.
Great conversation! Hearing chucks comments was super helpful. Someone passionate and experienced with FSD and trained in a similar field voicing concerns about the system is very much welcomed!
Totally agree with what chuck is saying about the cameras on the B pillars. I don’t understand why they have not just added cameras on the outside of each headlight and make the point left and right. I believe that’s the easiest solution. Besides a super wide view bumper camera
12.3 is the first version my wife doesn't hate. It's no longer jerky, no longer swerves randomly and no longe brakes harshly for no reason. It still has some issues, especially the speed issue, that need to be fixed before she'll use it, but at least when I enable it she is ok with it.
I could see Tesla having to actually retrofit all HW3 or prior hardware to higher def cameras for those that have FSD still on older vehicles yet. Likely why FSD transfer is now available for free with purchase
Downloaded 12.3 to car yesterday morning and it is vastly better. Using auto speed this morning it sped up from 45 in a 45 mph zone to 56 to get past a semi to make an upcoming right turn. Lots of behavior changes in this version with zero interventions.
The solution to 6:30 is to do a right turn and navigate a different way rather than trying to do the few bad left turns where the B pillar position is not good enough. Once angled for the right turn, the left side camera will be sufficient.
Was in the passenger seat in the interior of BC and it was my turn to sleep while wife was driving. But I wasn't asleep as I noticed the car drifting across the center line. I looked over and my wife was asleep.
9:30 if i was given 3 minutes to determine the exact distance and speed of oncomming vehicles with a 60 foot run. I would accelerate into the empty space with 2 inches to spare. Humans are not computers. .03 seconds to FSD is 6 seconds to us. You say that you can't use the speed limit as a guide to how fast oncomming traffic is? When is the last time you saw a car doing 200mph down your street? The speed limit is 60. Anyone going faster than 80 will be at fault in any accident. No human can ever safely take your Chuck Cook turn.
So what's going to be better for the neuronet training? Drive without FSD as excellent driving human with Fsd on Shadow mood or use FSD with disengagement for training?
I think the b-pillar placement isn’t ideal for unprotected left turns but FSD should do what I do and turn right and then u-turn or find a safer route.
Agreed. The one crazy situation Chuck got into with pickup eventually doing U-turn illustrates that unprotected left is pushing the limits of safety too far.
Chuck I agree with you about nonoptimal location of cameras. Maybe a reasonable execution would be to incorporate a camera in each headlight. Minimal additional cabling and cost.
I'm just excited as the rest to have FSD lisenced ASAP, Tesla has the obvious lead & will happen when it does. We need the best product and we have the most Data, so it's just a matter of time. Tesla will be the clear winner. The coil spring is winding tighter every day & when it unleashes, WATCH OUT !!!
I have said before that a great way to radically improve 'car' visibility is to place two cameras at extreme front of vehicle. Left cam looks right and right cam looks left so that best look-around obstructions works best.
I got 12.3 yesterday! It drives great! All the false braking and almost all the steering wheel jerk is gone. My biggest issue is that it doesn't obey the speed limit setting I set even when I've turned off the auto speed setting. It goes the speed it wants too. The second issue is that they took away just driving in TACC and having the option of double pumping the stalk and thus going to FSD. If FSD is turned on then that's all you get. Until I can take my hands off the wheel entirely, I would like to have TACC available. However I can see that they want to force drivers into using FSD as they need the data. FSD is still too cautious in some places than a human would be but is probably actually safer because of that.
Chucks comments on the limitations of the B pillar camera make sense. But what about the camera further forward by the wheel? Why is that not sufficient? Is it because it is too near the ground?
I really like this heuristic layer idea I have made several comments on other channels that I believed rules based and neural net based architectures should be on either side of the comparator chips so that the result would be a right brain left brain architecture as in humans. I really love the camera optics analysis that is wonderful thank you for this
Is the main concern is the B pillar not being able to see the Cross traffic could they just be a tweak retrofit option for the Hardware under the wing mirrors to have a new camera configuration with a perpendicular camera added to its existing backward facing camera then uses could just get this extra two camera swap out retrofit kit And that would solve chucks based assumption around Cross traffic and reliability?
The B pillar camera is angled forward (and down). It not like it sees only straight out exactly perpendicular with the B pillar. It sees forward also. Did the new M 3 B pillar camera angle change?
One thing I miss from my Chevy Bolt is the birdseye view for parking & slow driving. My Tesla isn’t bad for parking but the birdseye view is soooo much better. Also weird no camera on front bumper which seems an obvious place for one.
Chuck's comments about getting used to the driving patterns of humans and automation reminds me of my first experience with autopilot. The slight ping-ponging in the lane-keeping bothered me. It was so distracted by it because it was not at all like a normal person in my experience. But as time went on I started to feel comfortable and actually feel now like that lane position correction reminds me that the algorithm is working and adjusting . A very interesting conversation.
re-camera placement - Tesla can do unprotected left turns now to get the data for training and amount of disengagements, and if it sees that in some situations ULT are not safe, they can take a right turn. In most locations, turning right would angle the B-pillar camera in an angle that it won't be 'in the road' and as far as paralex - there are quite a few people with single functional eye that drive on daily basis - so that's not a real problem. As Robotaxi, Tesla can select safer/easier routes - but supervised, they can take more risk to get more data...
it seems that the cameras mounted in the front fenders could be replaced with cameras with the appropriate lenses to look sideways and still look back. this will allow upgrade with just camera replacement and not any additional channels. (fish eye or the like)
Great talk! 23:00 The network is trained to perform well on specific goals. You can use different input data while retaining the same goals and compare the difference between the two. As long as the goals remain the same, we are free to run different data sets - testing on the network should perform better - and they should be able tonpredict what changes can be made to produce the greatest improvements. That's the role of the data engineer. Feed the training engine a better diet kf data so the network will test better next time. A different team is changing the network so it makes better conclusionsnwith fewer inputs - but the same final tests are used. A third team is adding new tests and refining existing tests. That has to be how it works. Gawd - I would love to be a data engineer there.
Great chat, great to hear Chuck’s interesting thoughts about FSD, that perhaps the next vehicle platform will be the only car that can be truly autonomous. In UK, an unprotected right hand turn near me, like Chuck says visually with the current suite of cameras there is no way you could put your life in that cars hands. It would be more luck than judgment if you made it across the junction.
I always wondered why they haven't put cameras in the side marker lights in the front and back of the car to help with blind spots whether pulling out or backing out of a parking spot.
Parallax can be achieved for moving objects by using successive photos. As someone with a single eye (so no stereographic vision), when i do move, i an getting the 3D
Great video Farzad. I wanted to share with you an idea, that to try to make this car a better driver by having it experience every edge case is gonna be an impossible task and I also believe the wrong approach. I teach martial arts, and imagine if you train to fight, you would have to deal with the thousands of martial arts out there and their different styles and approach to things. But, the best approach is to know the core of what your game play is. For us it's simple, attack the center, protect the center and go with the force. The details of which aren't important, but these principles work for me and can deal with every situation. Thus, when it comes to driving you don't need to experience every thing on the planet. Again, I believe an impossible task, but you simple need to teach what good driving is. That means as simple as getting from point A to B, without hitting anyone or anything and staying relatively within the rules of the road to make it happen. At the end of the day, that is the goal If you and as human beings experience is never ending, just like edge cases will be the same thing. You want to input the knowledge of knowing what's good, and not teaching it, avoid this, this is bad, etc, because focus becomes reality. Anyway, that's a brief look at how I think Tesla needs to approach this.
I got my update over the weekend, and in Atlanta, 30327/30342/30305 zip codes its been way, way better I have driven 119 miles without any interventions, really smooth our streets are well marked and performs great so far!!!
Each capability that the car has or gets (highway, city streets, roundabouts, reverse, summon, banish) seems to each be on their own S curves with their own regressions at times. The overall capability of the car seems to be a combination of all the other S curves and their regressions creating it's own S curve or capability as compared to previous capability.
Hi guys, love my Tesla 2022 model Y (out of warranty due to mileage). However, The right camara needs to be replace along the wire for $600. I wonder what is your opinion on materials quality. Also, the car is in service for the last 3 days and service adviser explain that the replacement of the wire is tedious.... Question? how much useful FSD can it be if the system stop working with any obstruction (heavy rain, snow, heavy fog or dirt) in any of the cameras.....
Cameras should be located as far forward as possible, so creep is virtually eliminated. It’s obvious, basic physics. What’s the problem ? Pulling out into traffic from a T-junction 22:13 with hedges/parked cars etc. is too dangerous here in the UK with the current camera locations. You must have this issue in the US too.
32:17 @CYBRLFT is a rideshare driver (I think Lyft) who uses FSD and uploads videos. More often than not, he will have it engaged for most of the ride before he informs the passenger. This usually comes about naturally as a consequence of the conversation. The vast majority have no idea FSD is engaged and many have never even heard of it. He has many full rides with no interventions or disengagements over many FSD iterations. He recently got V12.3 and he’s raving at how much better it is!
They mentioned in the end "meatspace GPT" and how tesla does video predictions. can anyone point me to another resource on this? i had not hears of this
Wow, I see why chuck cook is so widely respected! I think now my 2019 model 3 will not make me any money as a robotaxi. Oh well…. I still feel so lucky to drive such an amazing car.
How much (if any) time laps does FSD have? When I drive I remember the last few seconds of what I have seen, and can say I just saw that there, so I know it’s still there (or it’s still clear) so I can proceed with this maneuver. Does FSD have that kind of information when it’s deciding what to do? Also, I have past drive memory. I remember that yesterday, and every day for the past month, the traffic is always this way, therefore, I can make this maneuver (AKA mussel memory).
I can say a lot of good things about 12.3, but I want to bring up my biggest pet peeve. It still sets the speed by reading TRUCK speed signs erroneously. Also, an new issue with this version is that when it sees an “Ahead 15” Route sign, it sets the speed to 15! This is a route sign! It seems to be only route signs for 15 with the word “Ahead” on top.
As to only level 3 on the older cars because of hardware restrictions, compare that with Microsoft saying you can only run Windows 11 if you only have recent PC hardware?
Wonder if Tesla can tap into other Tesla car cameras to gain more perspectives. Might solve for the blind areas or camera limitations by utilizing the entire network of cameras via all the other Teslas on the road?
18:05 Hans - just as u (mu) could simulate - FSD does too - that’s how neural net training goes, amigo. FSD doesn’t have to depend on real world interventions or accidents to improve its response I noticed you say the same thing now twice in different videos - there’s definitely something there for you to understand more.
Interesting thought, the problems where FSD is struggling in certain areas isn’t entirely a failure of FSD but its highlighting areas of poor design that should be improved. Infrastructure design is just as important as the software for this to work.
13:10, there should be no problem with new front fender cameras with two cameras and it should be a 300$ upgrade when Tesla is ready to admit B-piller is not optimal.
9:29 Imagine car makers put a drone out in front of customer vehicles.... This could be done fairly cheap, and secure and scan with lidar and FLIR before the vehicle gets to the area the drone is in ahead of it..
That is the craziest idea I've ever heard. Imagine a busy road in a city on really windy day. I see drones crashing into cars, buildings and people. How big does the battery on the drone have to be for a long commute?
There may be many other supplements that can be made around the vehicle and FSD. Each non Tesla could have a broadcast device of current location, direction, speed, and model of vehicle of said width and length. Intersections could have 360 degree cameras providing information to all vehicles approaching or within the intersection. The smart car may not be have to do it all by itself. A network of communicating devices could well solve many challenges.
Hi Chuck, I love your FSD test drive. All the Tesla has to do is to creep forward 1 foot to have the vision of the driver, may be at most two feet. I do not know why Tesla FSD has to creep so much in V11. I just got V12, cannot comment much on V12.
So basically FSD will never be FSD on current fleet because of where the cameras are unless they retrofit replacement wing mirrors with cameras (disabling existing b pillar). That will be way cheaper than the HUGE class action they have coming.
I think that the cameras for real FSD will have to be placed further forward. Unfortunately it will be difficult to make those cameras aesthetically pleasing. Let’s face it, the side view mirrors used to be placed on the front fenders. This is actually the best location to cover your blind spot. It was Detroit that moved them to the door for aesthetic reasons.
Have a Tesla with FSD. No idea how they are going to solve problems of obscured cameras (including weather), intersection visibility, prediction of vehicles not actively visible but obviously present, non road driving, and a few others. Seems a long way from level 3 much less beyond. Currently useless for much beyond steady state highway driving. Agree on the camera location discussion for turns. Seems more cameras are needed and maybe not just in the visible spectrum.
Chuck has got great points However.. I still believe that Tesla can restrict the ODD(Operational Design Domain) to eliminate Unprotected Left (Not FF UPLs) turns from the ODD to make robotaxi a reality.
Just got my 12.3 FSD beta, it is mind-blowing, first time took me to work no intervention no hesitations unprotected left hand turns, right turns on red allowed in florida. Just perfect
Chuck Cook makes so much sense about the position of the cameras!
Not having cameras around/behind the front lights to better see cross-traffic and having more time to react years after it became evident that Chuck Lefts and blind corners are VERY COMMON is a strange oversight holding back FSD. I understand that 12.3 is a champ at most literal and figurative corner cases, but Chuck is right: there's a fundamental physical limitation of what the car can see no matter the code, and dangerously sticking out the nose to barely see and escape fast moving cross-traffic is setting up FSD for disaster. That's exactly the area where there has not been a step change in passenger comfort, and that's exactly where the system should be triple redundant, but it cannot see what it cannot see with current camera setup. Adding just two up front would not significantly overwhelm HW3/4 nor would need a major FSD rewrite.
Don't understand why Tesla doesn't realise this and change the position. Put the camera in the mirror housing. I think they are so focused on not have something protude on the car design. They are putting that ahead of optimal function
@@TeNgaere For the self-driving taxi they will probably go pure function over form.
Agreed and why non sensor parking has been a mess also. Problem likely keeping front camera clear, hence Cybertruck has cleaner
Nope. The setup isn’t perfect but will do the job! Listen to Elon carefully!
Chuck certainly brings a lot to the conversation - good stuff.
Nice to listen to Chuck explain the camera constraints. Perfect job. Creeping is so inefficient and frustrating that the car stops more than once at stop signs. Chuck explains it spot on.
He's wrong about parallax: a moving object or a moving camera have the same effect. So, one side camera moving, or an object in motion, allow for parallax. Also, roads are not designed for people leaning forward in their seats. Many intersections aren't even designed for cars, specially in Europe. What people do now, in very tight intersections (worse case scenarios), is "show" the car front and start creeping while waiting for some input (either a car horn or lights signal if dark). Other drivers KNOW, when they see a car front, that the other driver can't see them. They either slow down if they can to allow for the creep to happen safely, or honk/flash the horn/lights to inform the driver he should stop. So, the main feature I would add is a microphone. And since a speaker can be used as microphone, i guess the outer speaker in Teslas may already be used to retrieve some info for this.
As someone living in Europe, with roads adapted since 800 years ago from old roman horse pathways or other pre-car and pre-carriage eras, I would say no city is 100% ready for cars, and people have to do some shenanigans to make it work (lean forward, open the window to hear better, honk, etc) BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY people have to be a bit more sensible & understand priority/"right of way" is a right, NOT an obligation. So, stepping on the accelerator towards people on purpose just because they have the right of way is just plain stupid & should be criminalized. Happens to me all the time, and i'm not a robot...
It has to stop by law. Once at the line, and once at the "creep limit". Humans do that too, just not fully stopping.
And v12 is far better at this too, even the full stop is barely noticeable (at least on video).
Level four and level five could just take a right when it’s an unprotected left
@@ptviwatcher I have to agree with you, people do accomodate other drivers 'creeping out' on blind corners all the time, as they expect other drivers to accomodate them. I'm in UK and many, many of our local 'back lanes' (drivable alleys between rows of houses) are completely blind at the end. No amount of neck craning can help as there are often 7 foot high solid brick walls with 90 degree corders obstructing the view on both sides. One has to creep forward slowly and show the nose of the car to get out. The car will have to do this, and copy the behaviour of us humans. Having cameras even mounted on the fenders won't 100% solve this, as many of these junctions are completely square on to the oncoming traffic (no buffer of a pathway).
@andrasbiro3007 law is stop once at a stop sign.
I just received the 12.3 update and have had our Model 3 for 6 years. Wow ! This new version allowed us to complete a 15 mile urban journey both ways with NO interventions. Version 12.3 felt like a human was driving the car, it’s hard to describe but the trip was far less mechanical to the extent that several times the car actually hit some of the lane dots, just like a human.
Yup, no hype. I just started driving v12.3, and have gone 16 urban miles with just 1 intervention, which was a real edge case. Before, it would be roughly 1 intervention every 1-2 city miles, so easily a 10X improvement. It feels even better because it drives so smoothly and human-like. One thing that reviewers don't mention is that v12.3 basically drives like a grandma - very slow creeping and driving at slow speeds, which is a little annoying but feels very safe and predictable. Then, once up to speed, it's normal and great.
Unfortunately, I think what Chuck says at 5:40 is really important. I wish Tesla/Elon clearly addressed it.
@@tomwojcik7896 , yea, agree, I’m 71 but I must admit 12.3 drives pretty conservatively, pretty much at speed limits, which in California it’s rare to drive so correctly.
The true test will be if the car can drop me off at the airport, drive itself home and then come pick me up when I return.
@@roxter299roxter7 That would be a game changer if it can put the coins in the short stay parking barrier lol
Chuck is such a gem in this community.
Deviation of the plane of view on side repeaters in a forward direction from hw3 to hw4 speaks directly to Chucks comments.
What's the change/deviation? aren't the only cameras that can see cross traffic still on the B-pillar, though?
Tesla engineers must have thought about and tested these scenarios, but I haven't heard anyone from Tesla address it.
Got 12.3 last night and it’s been amazing! Finally fsd is taking round about a properly. Not jumping into side lanes on country roads, not randomly signaling, and not phantom braking (yet)
Chuck is 100% correct on the camera location. Having half the car sticking out in the intersection to see cross-traffic misses too many opportunities to do it right.
The center console camera is used for left and right turns
Seems to me that the Waymo's are out there with right angle front fender cameras. C'mon Tesla!!
@@shdmd2118 The center console camera cannot see far enough to the left and right to see oncoming traffic. The wide angle camera frustum is literally restricted by the housing.
The Chuckster is in the house! AWESOME conversation here!
I still find that all of the discussions around self driving and debate about whether FSD is level 2 or 3 or higher, seem to come from the perspective, that a qualified driver is always available in the drivers seat to take over if needed. That mentality is therefore assuming the person available to takeover is: an experienced licenced driver, not a child, not elderly, not vision impaired, fully insured for driving that car, wide awake, not drunk, etc, etc.
For self driving software to truly add proper value to a vehicle and owner, it has to not need a fully qualified driver to always be sitting in the car watching it and helping it out of a bind. Otherwise it is absolutely forever just a 'driver assistance' tool.
I wonder if they could remote control the cars for 1/10,000,000 scenarios and still allow it to easily scale
Great conversation!
Hearing chucks comments was super helpful. Someone passionate and experienced with FSD and trained in a similar field voicing concerns about the system is very much welcomed!
Totally agree with what chuck is saying about the cameras on the B pillars.
I don’t understand why they have not just added cameras on the outside of each headlight and make the point left and right. I believe that’s the easiest solution. Besides a super wide view bumper camera
One of the best discussions regarding FSD to which I've listened. Chuck really has a high level of understanding. Thanks for doing this video.
12.3 is the first version my wife doesn't hate. It's no longer jerky, no longer swerves randomly and no longe brakes harshly for no reason. It still has some issues, especially the speed issue, that need to be fixed before she'll use it, but at least when I enable it she is ok with it.
I could see Tesla having to actually retrofit all HW3 or prior hardware to higher def cameras for those that have FSD still on older vehicles yet. Likely why FSD transfer is now available for free with purchase
Downloaded 12.3 to car yesterday morning and it is vastly better. Using auto speed this morning it sped up from 45 in a 45 mph zone to 56 to get past a semi to make an upcoming right turn. Lots of behavior changes in this version with zero interventions.
Agree with Chuck 👍🏼 very eloquently explained his position
The solution to 6:30 is to do a right turn and navigate a different way rather than trying to do the few bad left turns where the B pillar position is not good enough. Once angled for the right turn, the left side camera will be sufficient.
Was in the passenger seat in the interior of BC and it was my turn to sleep while wife was driving. But I wasn't asleep as I noticed the car drifting across the center line. I looked over and my wife was asleep.
9:30 if i was given 3 minutes to determine the exact distance and speed of oncomming vehicles with a 60 foot run. I would accelerate into the empty space with 2 inches to spare. Humans are not computers. .03 seconds to FSD is 6 seconds to us. You say that you can't use the speed limit as a guide to how fast oncomming traffic is? When is the last time you saw a car doing 200mph down your street? The speed limit is 60. Anyone going faster than 80 will be at fault in any accident. No human can ever safely take your Chuck Cook turn.
Great interview with Chuck and Hans, ty once again.
Outstanding interview and great insight into the technical limitations of the current configuration. Thanks Farzad!
Great show Farzad. All 3 of you were dropping some excellent info and thoughts. Very informative. Good, lively and comfortable feeling dialogue. 👊
Best discussion on FSD I’ve heard. The technical user perspective is excellent.
Great conversation guys. Farzad this was a banger discussion.
10:57 Be careful what you say Chuck, you will now see a video on TH-cam with a duct taped head in the B pillar position 😂😂😂
😂😂
So what's going to be better for the neuronet training? Drive without FSD as excellent driving human with Fsd on Shadow mood or use FSD with disengagement for training?
Has anyone considered repositioning the side pillar cameras themselves, moving them forward. 😮
Excellent Captain Cook....
I think the b-pillar placement isn’t ideal for unprotected left turns but FSD should do what I do and turn right and then u-turn or find a safer route.
Agreed. The one crazy situation Chuck got into with pickup eventually doing U-turn illustrates that unprotected left is pushing the limits of safety too far.
Chuck it’s not just the b pillar the wide camera lens in the front also is checking for cross traffic
Chuck I agree with you about nonoptimal location of cameras. Maybe a reasonable execution would be to incorporate a camera in each headlight. Minimal additional cabling and cost.
9:00, I agree I have always wondered how BMW drivers can actually drive their hood is 30-50cm longer than a Model 3 hood it is insanely unsafe!
14:05 FSD Highway L3? NO WAY! So long as it's still V11 that runs headlong into groins when unsure whether to go lt or rt.
Got 12.3 and I am so impressed. A quantum improvement over the old 11. I now believe full self driving is very close.
I'm just excited as the rest to have FSD lisenced ASAP, Tesla has the obvious lead & will happen when it does. We need the best product and we have the most Data, so it's just a matter of time. Tesla will be the clear winner. The coil spring is winding tighter every day & when it unleashes, WATCH OUT !!!
I have said before that a great way to radically improve 'car' visibility is to place two cameras at extreme front of vehicle. Left cam looks right and right cam looks left so that best look-around obstructions works best.
I got 12.3 yesterday! It drives great! All the false braking and almost all the steering wheel jerk is gone. My biggest issue is that it doesn't obey the speed limit setting I set even when I've turned off the auto speed setting. It goes the speed it wants too.
The second issue is that they took away just driving in TACC and having the option of double pumping the stalk and thus going to FSD. If FSD is turned on then that's all you get. Until I can take my hands off the wheel entirely, I would like to have TACC available. However I can see that they want to force drivers into using FSD as they need the data.
FSD is still too cautious in some places than a human would be but is probably actually safer because of that.
Chucks comments on the limitations of the B pillar camera make sense. But what about the camera further forward by the wheel? Why is that not sufficient? Is it because it is too near the ground?
30:25 I have over 40,000 miles driven on FSD it wasn't until version 11.49 that I truly felt like I could let go. I can't imagine version 12
Great FSD conversation Farzad! 😯👍
I really like this heuristic layer idea I have made several comments on other channels that I believed rules based and neural net based architectures should be on either side of the comparator chips so that the result would be a right brain left brain architecture as in humans. I really love the camera optics analysis that is wonderful thank you for this
Is the main concern is the B pillar not being able to see the Cross traffic could they just be a tweak retrofit option for the Hardware under the wing mirrors to have a new camera configuration with a perpendicular camera added to its existing backward facing camera then uses could just get this extra two camera swap out retrofit kit And that would solve chucks based assumption around Cross traffic and reliability?
The B pillar camera is angled forward (and down). It not like it sees only straight out exactly perpendicular with the B pillar. It sees forward also. Did the new M 3 B pillar camera angle change?
One thing I miss from my Chevy Bolt is the birdseye view for parking & slow driving. My Tesla isn’t bad for parking but the birdseye view is soooo much better. Also weird no camera on front bumper which seems an obvious place for one.
@Farzad your Idea at 32:50 is a great one, I think you should try it as an Uber driver and film people's reactions
Chuck's comments about getting used to the driving patterns of humans and automation reminds me of my first experience with autopilot. The slight ping-ponging in the lane-keeping bothered me. It was so distracted by it because it was not at all like a normal person in my experience. But as time went on I started to feel comfortable and actually feel now like that lane position correction reminds me that the algorithm is working and adjusting . A very interesting conversation.
I didnt know you were gonna be a father Farzad! Youll be a great dad!
End to end on high ways will be so cool to watch
Fantastic convo. Thx!
re-camera placement - Tesla can do unprotected left turns now to get the data for training and amount of disengagements, and if it sees that in some situations ULT are not safe, they can take a right turn. In most locations, turning right would angle the B-pillar camera in an angle that it won't be 'in the road' and as far as paralex - there are quite a few people with single functional eye that drive on daily basis - so that's not a real problem. As Robotaxi, Tesla can select safer/easier routes - but supervised, they can take more risk to get more data...
it seems that the cameras mounted in the front fenders could be replaced with cameras with the appropriate lenses to look sideways and still look back. this will allow upgrade with just camera replacement and not any additional channels. (fish eye or the like)
Great talk!
23:00
The network is trained to perform well on specific goals.
You can use different input data while retaining the same goals and compare the difference between the two.
As long as the goals remain the same, we are free to run different data sets - testing on the network should perform better - and they should be able tonpredict what changes can be made to produce the greatest improvements.
That's the role of the data engineer. Feed the training engine a better diet kf data so the network will test better next time.
A different team is changing the network so it makes better conclusionsnwith fewer inputs - but the same final tests are used.
A third team is adding new tests and refining existing tests.
That has to be how it works.
Gawd - I would love to be a data engineer there.
Great chat, great to hear Chuck’s interesting thoughts about FSD, that perhaps the next vehicle platform will be the only car that can be truly autonomous. In UK, an unprotected right hand turn near me, like Chuck says visually with the current suite of cameras there is no way you could put your life in that cars hands. It would be more luck than judgment if you made it across the junction.
I always wondered why they haven't put cameras in the side marker lights in the front and back of the car to help with blind spots whether pulling out or backing out of a parking spot.
What about sound? How important is it for the car to hear what's going on around it?
Parallax can be achieved for moving objects by using successive photos. As someone with a single eye (so no stereographic vision), when i do move, i an getting the 3D
I think Chuck always wanted to be a test pilot. 😉
Great video Farzad. I wanted to share with you an idea, that to try to make this car a better driver by having it experience every edge case is gonna be an impossible task and I also believe the wrong approach. I teach martial arts, and imagine if you train to fight, you would have to deal with the thousands of martial arts out there and their different styles and approach to things. But, the best approach is to know the core of what your game play is. For us it's simple, attack the center, protect the center and go with the force. The details of which aren't important, but these principles work for me and can deal with every situation. Thus, when it comes to driving you don't need to experience every thing on the planet. Again, I believe an impossible task, but you simple need to teach what good driving is. That means as simple as getting from point A to B, without hitting anyone or anything and staying relatively within the rules of the road to make it happen. At the end of the day, that is the goal If you and as human beings experience is never ending, just like edge cases will be the same thing. You want to input the knowledge of knowing what's good, and not teaching it, avoid this, this is bad, etc, because focus becomes reality. Anyway, that's a brief look at how I think Tesla needs to approach this.
I think Tesla uses the wide angle forward facing camera to assist with the left or right incoming cars.
Creaping is one of the safest thing I've started doing in the last few years
I got my update over the weekend, and in Atlanta, 30327/30342/30305 zip codes its been way, way better I have driven 119 miles without any interventions, really smooth our streets are well marked and performs great so far!!!
Each capability that the car has or gets (highway, city streets, roundabouts, reverse, summon, banish) seems to each be on their own S curves with their own regressions at times. The overall capability of the car seems to be a combination of all the other S curves and their regressions creating it's own S curve or capability as compared to previous capability.
Hi guys, love my Tesla 2022 model Y (out of warranty due to mileage). However, The right camara needs to be replace along the wire for $600. I wonder what is your opinion on materials quality. Also, the car is in service for the last 3 days and service adviser explain that the replacement of the wire is tedious.... Question? how much useful FSD can it be if the system stop working with any obstruction (heavy rain, snow, heavy fog or dirt) in any of the cameras.....
Cameera should be located on the A pillar.
Cameras should be located as far forward as possible, so creep is virtually eliminated. It’s obvious, basic physics. What’s the problem ? Pulling out into traffic from a T-junction 22:13 with hedges/parked cars etc. is too dangerous here in the UK with the current camera locations. You must have this issue in the US too.
32:17 @CYBRLFT is a rideshare driver (I think Lyft) who uses FSD and uploads videos. More often than not, he will have it engaged for most of the ride before he informs the passenger. This usually comes about naturally as a consequence of the conversation. The vast majority have no idea FSD is engaged and many have never even heard of it.
He has many full rides with no interventions or disengagements over many FSD iterations. He recently got V12.3 and he’s raving at how much better it is!
I agree with Chuck and have been saying this for a while. FSD, mind numbingly good. Good enough to remove the driver? Not a chance.
They mentioned in the end "meatspace GPT" and how tesla does video predictions. can anyone point me to another resource on this? i had not hears of this
Wow, I see why chuck cook is so widely respected! I think now my 2019 model 3 will not make me any money as a robotaxi. Oh well…. I still feel so lucky to drive such an amazing car.
How much (if any) time laps does FSD have? When I drive I remember the last few seconds of what I have seen, and can say I just saw that there, so I know it’s still there (or it’s still clear) so I can proceed with this maneuver. Does FSD have that kind of information when it’s deciding what to do? Also, I have past drive memory. I remember that yesterday, and every day for the past month, the traffic is always this way, therefore, I can make this maneuver (AKA mussel memory).
I can say a lot of good things about 12.3, but I want to bring up my biggest pet peeve. It still sets the speed by reading TRUCK speed signs erroneously. Also, an new issue with this version is that when it sees an “Ahead 15” Route sign, it sets the speed to 15! This is a route sign! It seems to be only route signs for 15 with the word “Ahead” on top.
So what do us one year neophytes do, pay now & get fsd when?
How does one iterate on a end to end architecture?
As to only level 3 on the older cars because of hardware restrictions, compare that with Microsoft saying you can only run Windows 11 if you only have recent PC hardware?
Wonder if Tesla can tap into other Tesla car cameras to gain more perspectives. Might solve for the blind areas or camera limitations by utilizing the entire network of cameras via all the other Teslas on the road?
That ending hit 🤣
18:05 Hans - just as u (mu) could simulate - FSD does too - that’s how neural net training goes, amigo. FSD doesn’t have to depend on real world interventions or accidents to improve its response
I noticed you say the same thing now twice in different videos - there’s definitely something there for you to understand more.
A dual camera retrofit for the camera behind the front wheels would be a potentially “cheap” fix to address the creep issue
Maravilha de entrevista muito esclarecedor conhecimento e vida nos liberta
I really hope for a HW5 retrofit for HW3. Should be possible with the wiring in the car to have much higher MP cameras and a better FSD Computer.
Interesting thought, the problems where FSD is struggling in certain areas isn’t entirely a failure of FSD but its highlighting areas of poor design that should be improved.
Infrastructure design is just as important as the software for this to work.
Question.... does Chuck think it could be considered Lv 5 on highways only?
Farzad , I live in goergetown Texas and I have FSD as well , we should do a collab where we drive behind each other with two teslas on FSD.
To solve Level 5, add a second lens to the fender cameras facing laterally forward. Easy retro-fix.
Agreed. This would be the simplest solution if a change is needed.
Tesla really needs to add A-pillar or better still front bumper cameras (with washers) asap.
13:10, there should be no problem with new front fender cameras with two cameras and it should be a 300$ upgrade when Tesla is ready to admit B-piller is not optimal.
9:29 Imagine car makers put a drone out in front of customer vehicles.... This could be done fairly cheap, and secure and scan with lidar and FLIR before the vehicle gets to the area the drone is in ahead of it..
That is the craziest idea I've ever heard. Imagine a busy road in a city on really windy day. I see drones crashing into cars, buildings and people. How big does the battery on the drone have to be for a long commute?
How about a man with a red flag? ....
Downloading now, getting a Starbucks and hitting the road shortly
really good discussion
There may be many other supplements that can be made around the vehicle and FSD. Each non Tesla could have a broadcast device of current location, direction, speed, and model of vehicle of said width and length. Intersections could have 360 degree cameras providing information to all vehicles approaching or within the intersection. The smart car may not be have to do it all by itself. A network of communicating devices could well solve many challenges.
Hi Chuck, I love your FSD test drive. All the Tesla has to do is to creep forward 1 foot to have the vision of the driver, may be at most two feet. I do not know why Tesla FSD has to creep so much in V11. I just got V12, cannot comment much on V12.
So basically FSD will never be FSD on current fleet because of where the cameras are unless they retrofit replacement wing mirrors with cameras (disabling existing b pillar). That will be way cheaper than the HUGE class action they have coming.
Bro,
Chuck, being a Navy pilot, ... I want him flying my next flight!
Cheers, Eric
The parallax comment is wrong. The parallax effect is used to determine short distances not long ones like chuck thinks
I think that the cameras for real FSD will have to be placed further forward. Unfortunately it will be difficult to make those cameras aesthetically pleasing. Let’s face it, the side view mirrors used to be placed on the front fenders. This is actually the best location to cover your blind spot. It was Detroit that moved them to the door for aesthetic reasons.
Chuck random blinkers are still an annoying issue w 12.3.
Have a Tesla with FSD. No idea how they are going to solve problems of obscured cameras (including weather), intersection visibility, prediction of vehicles not actively visible but obviously present, non road driving, and a few others. Seems a long way from level 3 much less beyond. Currently useless for much beyond steady state highway driving.
Agree on the camera location discussion for turns. Seems more cameras are needed and maybe not just in the visible spectrum.
Chuck has got great points
However..
I still believe that Tesla can restrict the ODD(Operational Design Domain) to eliminate Unprotected Left (Not FF UPLs) turns from the ODD to make robotaxi a reality.