EarthBound's Most Controversial World Record Speedrun
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2021
- Earthbound's fastest speedruns could be disqualified, here's why.
DISCLAIMER: In no way is this video made to portray any cheating or dishonesty. All runners shown did NOT cheat in their runs.
Edit: The runner in question is still running to this day and got a sub 45 with approved methods!
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#EarthBound #Speedrun #WorldRecord - เกม
UPDATED 11/02/2021:
Thanks for watching! The turbo rule was amended to disallow “macros” on controllers, but regular rapidfire/turbo functions are still allowed. Remember that no runners mentioned knowingly broke any rules, or were considered to be cheating.
Be sure to give Octopuscal a sub! He's an amazing runner! He also recently got another mid 44 minute time without the mentioned controller!
th-cam.com/channels/EepdDIGxjz7P7nKGNUCUTg.html
Yeah, allowing macros would've been BS
Edit: Thanks for the update. This was an interesting and somewhat interactive video.
Well. I guess he can always host the runs with the controller. It'd be nice to see it possibly become it's own category someday. RE3 community for example, agreed to allow a script that lessens already stressfull, run killing RNG. While thats different. I think it just goes to show, that if enough people agree? No method is really off the table until it's decided.
While I cannot say I am for them, despite using them for disability issues myself. I also cannot exclude them, as macros fall under the same classification as "tool assisted" runs. While I agree with them in amending the rules to disallow macros, at the same time the logic doesn't make much sense as again, tool assisted exists and DOES use several means including macros. If anything what would have made the most sense would be to have them placed in a strictly tool assisted any% vs. ommiting it entirely. Either way as of your upload at least, he still ahs the fastest run regardless.
Thanks for the good video.
Of course, I thought I might be disqualified, so I asked the question on Discord beforehand. But no one answered, so I used it. Also, 45:12 was on the leaderboard, so I figured it was allowed.
Personally, I don't mind being banned. But I wanted everyone to answer up front.
I would imagine if the runs got disqualified, there would be no ban since there was no malicious intent behind using the Konami controller.
I’m not a mod, but regardless of the controller I would say that you earned that 44, and I know you could do it again!
Thank you for your hard work in pushing the time down.
@@DoctorSwellman I'd like to hope that there won't be a ban! A run being removed or being put into a new category because it caused a rule to be created or changed is definitely not the same as knowingly cheating.
Pretty black and white. Only turbo is allowed. Removal from leaderboard is enough of a punishment though. Banning is just overkill for something the runner wasn't maliciously hiding from the community. Banning should be reserved for runners that are knowingly and purposely deceiving the community with unfair advantages.
Why wouldn’t they just add the time he made up from the extra inputs over an ascipad run? I feel like that would be akin to leveling the playing field and just tell him the exploit isn’t allowed anymore
@@jackclifton5434 It's not so much about the time as it is the possibly of human error as well, something that can happen in any speedrun. Macro buttons eliminate that since all you need to do from there is get in position, and have the macro button do the rest of the work.
I always love it when these speedrun documentaries are being serious in their topics and then someone's online name gets mentioned "he was using a new route created by Loli Illya"
Reminds me of one of Summoning Salt's videos on the history of SMB speedrunning. It was a pretty serious video until of the runners "420blazeit" got mentioned. That caught me so off-guard lol.
This was a historic find by BonerGuzzler69
I don't mind the colorful characters of history, it's when these speedrun docs explain at the start of every video what the goal of speedrunning is that jars me
Best one was the Japanese runner he mentioned (but didn’t have a vid playing for) was Shivering Erotic Banana
"This is a serious allegation that must be examined for legallity. If he cannot prove his run's legitimacy, FartD3vourer97 risks losing everything he worked so hard to acheive!"
*Fade to black. Melancholic music rises*
a special programmable controller seems like it would fall into TAS territory, as persistent precise timings like that would be much, much more difficult to do in a speedrun
Yeah I mean you are literally being assisted by a tool.
I gotta say that the macros able to be executed by that controller definitely make me think it should be banned or a separate category altogether
Personally as much as it sucks I think it either has to be disqualified or made into a separate category. The solution I see is similar to the emulator one, meaning make a list of approved controllers (like there are approved emulators for other games)
I like this approach. Gets rid of a lot of the "what ifs" and "well its not *specifically* banned.... so it might be ok?" scenarios.
@@JgHaverty I don't get why this is even a thing nowadays...can't be so hard to ASK if something is okay to use before you do so.
The excuse of "well no one stated it in the rules" does not work. I rarely see rules stating that TAS tools are forbidden...do we have to put that stuff in the rules of every game now? I would argue we should trust the minimal amount of intelligence to be there in every human being speedrunning.
@@neros_soren It's often easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. As for TAS, that's always a separate category, lol, and thus doesn't need to be stated.
I do 100% agree with the OP though. It either needs to be it's own category, and then gauge interest to see if it's worth keeping around, or just disqualify any runs that use it. Turbo is one thing, but programmable macro buttons is it's own thing.
@@neros_soren read the top comment on this video. Apperentyl, octopuscal asked beforehand and did not get a response. Now, we can argue if discord is the right place to ask for an official ruling, but it goes to show that it needs a process.
@@LucianDevine A TAS and TAS tools are two beast...I can do a non TAS run with tools provided and used in a TAS... why do people try to wise-arse factual statements?
Also...TAS is not a category, it's a way to do runs...
And your statement neither engaged with my point nor does it have anything to do with it, except for the wise-arsing part.
I never heard of this Konami controller before.
But being able to reprogram buttons is something that indeed can bring discussions with it along the way.
I know that a lot of NES speedruns have the rule to only program one action per button (and turbo is also almost never allowed).
I am curious how the EB community is going to handle this situation.
, if the Konami Controller is officially licensed by Nintendo, i'd say it should be counted as a legal device.
@@woobgamer5210But Nintendo isn’t the person overseeing these speedrunning communities.
When there's a lot of contention over something like this, I find the best resolution is to just make a new category
I think the real problem with using a macro controller is that it would open the floodgates for further arguments for macro use, whereas a turbo controller can only mash. It's unfortunate that this runner got caught up in all this, and I hope whatever the resolution on this ended up being, it didn't cause many issues.
bruh that controllers turning it into a tas
I wonder if there's a good tool to measure turbo frequency. Not everyone can get their hands on an asciiPad and it'd be neat to confirm whether third-party controllers have an unfair advantage. I'm entirely certain my horrible Turbo Touch doesn't.
LOL I havent seen one of those in a long time. Im sure theres a response tester somewhere; and I feel 10hz is probably specific to allow for most controllers? I couldnt say for sure, and its probably a hard thing to "prove" anyway.
I feel like a better term than "programmable button" would be "macro" or "turbo macro", as I feel like that's a more common term, although I am certainly not an unbiased observer
Loving this kind of content Doc, please keep it up!
I believe this should disqualify the controller AND the runs, as a programmable button sequence is, as you said in the video, not a Turbo button.
if the Konami Controller is officially licensed by Nintendo, i'd say it should be counted as a legal device.
@@woobgamer5210 The device should be legal the programing tas should not. Ie., use the controller without programing it? Sure. You are right Woob.
I still feel like being able to use turbo is even cheating.
Allowing turbo for text mashing is understandable for text-heavy games like RPGs.
Programmable inputs/macros are debatable depending on the game, but I think using them would generally be either put into a new category or completely disallowed.
I disagree with turbo for anything. Play the game, go fast, and beat it. It has to be all you.
@@foreignuser_ I usually agree in a general sense, but when there's a lot of text and all you can do about it is mash through it, then I don't see the harm in allowing everyone to use turbo for text mashing, as long as it's only used for text mashing.
@@jruler93 i'm not saying you're not reasonable and i have no skin in the game other than being a fan of speedrunning. thanks for the response and your thoughts.
my philosophy is that some games are just not going to be great choices for speedrunning and i would rather let those willing to do it on regular hardware do so.
if it's not fun to mash through text for someone, maybe there's a door open for you check out another game!
either way, love the stories and achievements speedrunners accomplish all the same.
I mean to me it’s like your running a marathon, yeah it can be mundane but just cause it’s repetitive (like running a marathon) doesn’t mean you should use some device to let you coast along that marathon, like giving a runner a skateboard or something.
The rule you brought up would be the perfect way to fix this whole mess, having a limit of button presses per sec, in order to have most turbo controllers be on the same footing.
otherwise that specific controller would surge in popularity, and thus price and decrease in availability to boot, making it impossible to compete with such time saves throughout.
The mere fact that he dug up a new controller should validate his run. Shit is analogue!
now that i finaly also watched this video here is my butter for the bread: wonderful video as always. loving the cuts with the script and the informations with it. and about the controller. octo did a fantastic job for sure, but wasnt turbo-controllers only allowed or was it "controllers with automatic inputs". cause the command controller as the name already suggests is not a turbo controller and was never market as one. at least thats my butter for the bread. keep it up ^^
Personally I think it should just be grandfathered in if they decide to reject the controller. Take out the time saved by it as accurately as possible. It wasn't intentional but it was in a grey area
The answer is kindo of simple, this should be a new category and maybe, it will make room to improvement.
I think that for me it is one of the most difficult speedruns that I have seen
Neat analysis! Thanks for uploading!
now to remove the music from the game and make it speedrun viable... :Smilers:
it's like partial tool assistance to have a set of button inputs ready at any time. not good for a regular run.
Also, I don't think something should count as an EarthBound speedrun until people have completed a Groffian journey to understand the true nature of the self.
I had one of those ASCIIPads growing up, didn't even want it for the turbo...it was just cheaper than the Nintendo controller lol
I think some important distinctions need to be made here. 1) Octopuscal did not maliciously try to hide the fact he used the controller. He was up front and honest about it from the get go. 2) he was using an officially licensed product that had hardware manipulations, not unakin to turbo controllers as well. 3) this was a "new" thing brought up that has no precedent before it 4) the allowance of turbo controllers does beget a "slippery slope" fallacy effect. If one controller is allowed, why not another "mod type" controller?
The very clear distinction should be made -> any % standard, and any % modded controller (of any type) with the restrictions implemented SPECIFICALLY. If macro controllers are disallowed, then so be it, but make it a clearly defined event and standard.
Calling for bans and dq's is preposterous. Hes not a cheating speedrunner using TAS or frame editing to cheat his runs; he used a bizarro controller that no one really thought to use before. An officially licensed product as well...
Thanks for the comment. Most of this was addressed in the video, and the term “cheating” was specifically not used because that’s not what it was.
The calling for bans or restrictions were for the controller and not the runner himself. He asked about it in the discord and no response was given at the time from the moderator team, so he went with it.
The runs being disqualified would have been from the use of the controller, which brings me to the next subject that was talked about. The controller was a command controller that basically used a macro function that could play back multiple inputs each frame, which is not simply a turbo function
Octopuscal has since obtained another sub 45 any% run with an approved controller, and the moderator team made the decision to add that restriction to the EB boards. This video was only made to bring light to an obscure situation, and create a frame of reference for other speed communities in case situations like this pop up for them.
While I appreciate the effort you made to inform myself and others of these things, it’s already been made clear in the video and description that no cheating occurred, and it was not made to tarnish octopuscal’s reputation in speedrunning
@@DoctorSwellman i was trying to address my perceived notions of players calling for a "ban". I misinterpreted one person in particular, but the comment wasnt intended for "you". I did watch the video and youre obviously more informed than most about it. I was clarifying for those that felt it was "cheating" and hes somehow a malicious runner. And to be fair, you really didn't clarify if that it was blown over as a controller issue only. Lot of cheaters getting outted for speedruns lately; and subsequently a lot of witch hunting going on. I wanted it specifically clear it wasnt "cheating", as your video doesnt make that statement directly.
Well most boards only allow OG hardware, so I'm not certain as to how much weight the "officially licensed" part of hardware would have in the balance. The reason turbo functionality (keyword here: functionality) was allowed was for QoL improvements, so that people wouldn't just mash their fingers to oblivion. However, a specific functionality that falls outside of OG hardware specs, and that was not greenlit (ie: programmable button sequences) used in conjunction with turbo made it way faster than it should've been.
It's the combination of a feature that has been greenlit by the community (ie: turbo) with one that was not, and never will be (ie: macros / programmable button sequences), that caused this huge boost in turbo performance.
Octo not hiding their methodology doesn't make their attempt any more or less legit; in fact it has no bearing on its legitimacy or lack thereof, depending on how you look at it. It would only have had an impact on Octo's character if they would've lied about it, which they did not. So it wouldn't make them a cheater per se. However, that bears no weight as to whether or not the run should be considered valid. To me, it shouldn't within the current set of rules, as allowing turbo functionality doesn't mean allowing all functionalities of every turbo controller out there, even those that fall out of scope from turbo. It means allowing turbo functionality in addition to what OG hardware can do; nothing else.
Again, the problem here doesn't lie with turbo nor the controller itself, but rather with an out-of-scope feature that said third-party controller possesses. Said controller being licensed or not holds no weight in this.
Guess everyone trying to attempt runs on a serious level needs to hunt down one these rare konami macro controllers :D
Hmmm.
I always come down on the accessible side of things. Allowing to use turbos to cut down on cramping and repetitive injury is a fantastic choice when possible.
So my next question is: how accessible is this controller? Is it easy to emulate from the player's end? (It's just a macro, so it's easy enough from a programmer's perspective).
In some of my speedrun communities, there has been talks about implementing a particular hacked form of a game, or particular helper scripts, as "speedrun official", but none of the games I run have ever accepted such solutions out of a notion of purity, and the uncertainty of not changing anything. (I don't run any 'mature' speedrunning games where the engine is very closely understood).
Because this button combo allows for MUCH faster text, IF it *can* be human doable, then I would be worried about the race to destroy one's hands that could result if the controller was banned.
If it's not human doable, then the worst is that future runs with fast text are always going to be tainted by the suspicion of cheating that seems like it would be hard to prove.
In either case a single approved macro script/solution and allowing the controller but *only* for this purpose seems like it would be the most future-proof route, if it's easy enough and secure enough.
If it's not easy enough, or opens possible doors into other exploits, then banning the controller.
So there's a lot of leeway for judgment here either way, even just looking at accessibility!
Well, the rules now state "Programmable controllers are not allowed.", so I guess I know how the mods ruled in the end :)
It deserves to be in a separate category.
should go in the TAS category, since that's what pre-programmed frame perfect inputs are.
Well, it's not quite the same as TAS, since you would still have to do some manual positioning before the macro would work as intended. So I think it should either be it's own category if there is enough interest, or just disqualified.
Tool assist is tool assist. The controller is performing inputs at a humanly impossible rate.
@@Trelior But there is no need for it in TAS since everything is perfectly done frame by frame, thus taking out the need for the controller.
@@LucianDevine You realize that TAS literally just means "Tool-assisted speedrun" right? A tool's assistance is a tool assistance, whether you're manipulating the game frame by frame or using a utility that gives an unfair advantage.
Turbo, in and of itself, is considered a tool. That's why it's banned in the vast majority of categories.
Does using turbo buttons count as TAS then? I already know your answer, why don't you explain it to other speed run communities?
People have some specific concepts that come to mind when they think TAS, and it isn't a speed run where ANY tools are used
Edit:fucking lmao turbo is allowed in this run. Are ALL of them TAS then? Should they be moved into the TAS category and compete against real TAS or is your understanding and opinion flawed?
Macro commands seem like a pretty distinct line from regular turbo, but if you’re allowed to use two turbo controllers at the same time I think you could probably replicate the strategy that record had by running the turbo at half the frame rate of the game
Believe it or not ASCII is pronounced ass-key
i love my ass key
Personally I think either ban macros and DQ the runs or make it a separate category (any% w/ macros) and move the runs there
The name of the game for all competitions ought to be accessibility. If everyone knows about a particular tech, then it ought to be allowed, unless it requires the community states otherwise.
If everyone has access to this control or a simulator of this controller, then it probably ought to stand.
I don't see a controller which enables a few button presses to be mapped into an array for execution being similar to a TAS where hundreds of inputs may be mapped into a specific sequence and executed in any way the TAS'er desires.
I absolutely love earthbound and still play it on my original snes. I've never tried a speed run, but I just might for fun
I don’t run Earthbound nor do I know anything about the history of the run or the rules the community has in place. But as far as I can tell, if they’re using an original copy of the game, running it on original hardware and using peripherals in the way they were programmed to work, I don’t see a problem. The vast majority of runners wouldn’t be in WR record contention regardless of how they played the game, so talk of banning a certain peripheral only serves the top runners… typically the same runners who moderate the rules of a speedrun category. Is that a conflict of interest? I don’t know. What I do know is that innovation like this draws attention to the hobby as a whole and the smaller niche of the individual run. I fail to see how that’s a bad thing. Punishing innovation bc certain runners don’t have easy access to the new method stifles creativity and ostracizes runners who dare to try new things and push limits. Again, I know nothing about EB speedrunning. My opinion primarily concerns the hobby as a whole, with this example being the jumping off point.
On the other hand, by your rules, it could be argued that a game genie is allowed.
Personally, I think ANY non-standard EQUIPMENT should shift the run into a separate category, since at that point you are competing to see who can afford to find the most obscure (and therefore expensive) but helpful addons/peripherals.
In this case, even if turbo pads are accepted, there is a BIG difference between telling a button to just repeat as fast as it can vs a program saying hit keys in a certain order.
If anything, this should go in the TAS category, as this should DEFINITELY be considered tool assisted... And there is a reason that a TAS category is created for speedrunning, it is just never going to be fair to put a human up against a computer in such things.
@@Vertraic But Turbo be programming a controller to mash a button or a series of buttons, so in my eyes either than ban turbo or keep the run
This is the way. As Taylor pointed out, if it can be done on originald hardware and approved peripherals, its all good. RE: Game Genie Easy, its in the rules to not use GG, ProActionReplay or similar methods to inject or edit game code. If the mods decide to ban altogether Turbo controllers, go ahead. But by selectively picking one or the other it could easily be seen as an attempt to shape the leaderboards.
"But as far as I can tell, if they’re using an original copy of the game, running it on original hardware and using peripherals in the way they were programmed to work, I don’t see a problem." -This
@@Vertraic Yes, it is definitely Tool Assisted
If they're going to allow turbo, I think they should look at things like this case-by-case. If the commands were used to do important tricks like the stairs or RNG manip, then I think it would be questionable, but if it's just for the sake of mashing, then you could argue that the macro is just a better turbo.
Weird, I remember programmable macro controllers on the N64, but I never had a SNES one
Not sure if I am too late to mention this, or if another did: Maybe you all can make speed-running categories for specific licensed hardware, such as one for that Konami controller and others. Then a category for using two controllers. That’s my two cents lol.
0:12 Hol up is that RT
Plot Twist: He's trying to intentionally get the Konami Commander controller banned because people might think it's too close to being a real time version of TAS equipment.
Oh a speedruning martyr. Like the guy who made a very blatantly spliced Celeste run for the purpose of forcing proof standards to improve
If anything asterisk them. Take away the official WR title if you must but allow them to stay listed for referance
He didnt break any rules more then he interpreted them in unintended ways.
This definitely breaks the rule, but if the runner did it in good faith and the community thinks they should stay in the community, I think they should adjust the runs time as if they were using a normal turbo button. Since this only affects text speed, theoretically they can just figure out how long the text boxes take with a normal turbo button, and apply that time to the run instead of the reduced text box speed. That way the actual gameplay of the run determines their time.
I'm vary much in the camp of.. Turbo and macro controllers shouldn't be used.
I would argue using them would fall under TAS , Tool Assisted Speedrun because you are using outside equipment to assist you.
But that's just me.
I think any% should be just that. Any% no matter the option. Let people break games to the code, that makes them so much fun to watch and support.
When in doubt, make a new category
I just noticed you cropped the leaderboard at the start as to not include my time in this category.
This is a formal request to redo the video to fix that or I will be writing a letter to my speedrunning lawyer. He works for Nintendo.
well, they allowed turbo controllers and a turbo controller is what he used.
Turbo controllers typically don't have programmable button sequence functionalities. Herein lies the difference. And it's a major one.
I mean its clearly not a "turbo" function, but ....
If this is allowed what is stopping me from creating y own custom controller and programming a tas onto it?
This is more of a Tool Assisted run at this point
Be it all honest, my personal opionion is that the three runs should be moved to another category, and allowed there, I'd like to see what the community comes up when abusing macros (I'm aware mods have already disallowed, but my opinion is still the same :) )
I'm not incredibly well schooled when it comes to speed running tech, but In my mind using the functions on that controller sound more akin to using a TASbot and not a turbo controller
i knew it, i knew it was gonna be turbo
Not sure why this was even a debate and how the speedrunner(s) themselves didn't know 100% that the Konami controller should not be allowed..
It's literally no different than a player who plays on a pc emulator and if they programed a macro on their gaming keyboard, so they can do multiple button combos/presses with a single keyboard button press.
Even they would cry foul if a emulator player was allowed to submit their record to the leaderboards and they were open about using keyboard macros... So the audacity that this person would think it would be okay just because it's a console controller.
I mean the rules didn't say anything about NOT being able to use one either so...... xD
Silliness aside I can see how that's like kinda encroaching TAS-esque territory, so it's certainly up for a ton of discussion, I'd imagine!
Well now it's time for me to buy yet another obscure SNES controller :P
I think that this should probably just be spun off into its own category, with the only hazard of that being creating another category. I think this looks just like automating or working around a long period of the game, and that is pretty much what speedrunning is about.
any% runs are not glitchless runs so controller input glitches are totaly fine. for the rest there are glitchless runs
lol...controversy - i am sure we all change button commands on fifa/cod/ff7/tekken/etc ... i thought it part of the games "controller settings:L"
but would turbo be programming a controller to mash a button or a series of buttons.
i get that its controversial, but they will need to define what a turbo is
and word it carefully other wise they are just splitting hairs
I would argue that what the he did was setting up a simple macro command and not just a turbo input. I believe that the EarthBound speed running community will need to clarify their rules about turbo, macros and other potential automated aids because they seam to give a significant advantage. If they want to allow macros with no restrictions so would i argue that TAS could be allowed since that is "just" a really complicated macro but they would violate the spirit of the competition IMO.
What ever comes to pass so do i hope that the player Octopuscal is not penalized since he seams to have been forthcoming about what he was doing and it is seams to not have been done with malicious intent.
I always prefer the approach of being permissible with the details being made widely available. To me, the distinction here is no different than the distinction between turbo and non-turbo, it's a third facet that can be included in the time.
For some, speedrunning is about getting the fastest times by any means necessary (to paraphrase). Typically this means by exploiting glitches, but using nonstandard hardware seems just as valid to me as exploiting a glitch; anything short of modifying the game's source code or using a device to alter the game's memory registers, as if to operate in a nonstandard way, should be fair game. With that said, I'll always favor glitchless as a category run with only standard controllers.
So Tool Assisted Speedruns would be the dominating thing on every board?
What if I just record every input... and replace the bad ones at a later date to improve my time with this new run?
Not wanting to smartass, but hardware modification and advantage giving hardware is, if not stated otherwise, banned from literally any speedrun.
Exactly because of things like macros. Otherwise non accurate emulation would be the norm, too.
Turbo generally is something different, because the games allowing them, are generally long RPG's, which runs literally ruin your hand without it.
Just watch and make TAS'S if that's what you want. You know, Tool Asisted Speedruns.
So you're saying I could overclock my SNES and dominate all leaderboards? I mean, you did say "by any means necessary", even if it was paraphrasing.
Oh, not what you meant? Not surprised, those are what we call nuances, and they are far more important than you think.
If people are allowed to create/execute "tech" by altering the readable surface of a CD (this was for a SpongeBob game, I think?) or by baking their famicoms/carts (Dragon Quest 3, I think?) then I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed, especially if other alternate controllers are already allowed.
There should definitely be an original hardware and no external exploit category and a free-for-all category
Ooooh, oooh, I still have my ASCII controller! (It's....in dire need of repairs. But still, HERE COMES AN EB WR, BAYBEE!)
....
Oh right, I'm kinda crap at the game. Okay, well, MAYBE I'll PB....?
way late on this but tbh it feels like it kinda falls under tas to some extend at that point using macros
I had a record faster than the world record for beating mortal kombat 2 on the snes at one point years ago just due to a turbo function. The special moves that activated when you held down and then released a button would contsantly be used right around 60 presses per second or so. I remember 30 was not enough. The aci pad full self auto is faster than the press auto as well. Mileenias sais, jax's ground pound, and lu kangs bicycle kick would endlessly trigger. So, I just held low kick with lui kang and his bicycle kick would just go on forever and would retrigger on the first frame it could even after an opponent block knocked me off. Once one hit, it was impossible to escape as it would retrigger before they would recover. The first world record times posted at each difficulty I had already beaten by then.
5:02 From that logic using a keyboard when running on emulator should be banned too, since you can reprogram the buttons to different keys. I know I'm probably part of the minority here, but I feel that if you are that determined to get the time save, you can buy the controller, not ban a run that didn't violate any of the rules.
Yeah, I mean...having a key repeating a macro is not something totally different from using a keyboard, binding your buttons to one key each...(s
This is the exact reason, why most rules even state, that buttons have to be bound to one key each...and ONLY one key.
But this goes even further than just re-mapping, this controller can do a frame perfect/pixel perfect tricks if they have setups.
@@neros_soren I understand that it is taking it a step further, but personally I am more interested in seeing how far the game can be pushed to its limits without breaking the category rules, whether it uses a controversial, but faster method or not. Quite honestly I am opposed to using a turbo controller in the first place as I consider button mashing a skill that should be rewarded to who can do it the fastest.
@@galaxymilky298 So...on hand hand you are saying "hey, as long as it doesn't break the rule, use every method possible" and on the other "I am against turbo to begin with".
Idk man, I would argue that you are not an RPG runner, and I would even argue against you being a speedrunner.
There's always nuance in ruling. One game might break by something, while on an other it helps in enjoying a run without ruining your body and injuring yourself.
Plus, you compared a macro controller to a keyboard...at least you are quick on changing the topic, eh?
@@neros_soren I compared changing the key a button is assigned to on a keyboard as assigning a button to another button on a controller. and admittedly you are right with the argument that you only it assigned to 1 key on a keyboard and multiple on the gamepad. You also seem to have made an assumption from my last comment, as I'm more opposed to allowing turbo in the games rules, however if it is allowed I see no problem with using the mentioned controller, since like in my original comment I mentioned that if the time save was important enough to them they could buy it. And for the record if you click my channel name, you will see that I actually do run an RPG.
@@galaxymilky298 I did not assume, I made an assessment. It's unbelievable how people on the internet do not understand the difference. Especially because in that exact sentence, I literally pointed out, that you are at odds with yourself with the two statements I paraphrased.
And since you are running an RPG, you should know why turbo is a thing for games. Which rarely is for convenience nor for it being faster, it's usually either:
a) because the JP rules are adapted
or
b) The run is long and has so much text, that running it for a long period is dangerous to your health (FF9 being the big one here)
Now for two more points.
1) "if it is allowed" is something different than "if it's not forbidden", latter means people are unaware of it. Which is the case here, the community was unaware of that controller, so no one had the discussion of it being a valid and "legal" option. Stating that it should be allowed, because there was no rule against it, is simply not how this works. Speedrun rules chance regularly, based on new findings or controversies.
2) You still ignore the fact, that modified or modified equal hardware is, as a general statement, forbidden in the speedrunning scene. Which is why it is always stated in the rules if it IS allowed. (some games allowing for reducing the original SNES controllers D-Pad pivot to be lowered, which is a modification, but also one that happens by simply using the controller anyways). By your logic, modding controller, and macro controller are allowed in every game that does not prohibit them in their rules. Now every community would need to put a new rule in, that prohibits it outright, because people don't manage to think for themselves.
I might just be too long part of this, but back when this whole shebang was not mainstream, no one had to point out that a macro programmable controller is not valid to speedrun. Now we have a discussion about it's use, because there was no explicit rule against the use of a niche JP only controller.
The runner in question could've asked the community BEFOREHAND if it's use is okay, would minimize the drama coming from it. Because now the question is not about if the controller is a valid option, the question also became if their runs are valid still.
imo hes clear. if it wasnt stated in rules then its good
It’s just the worlds worst TAS
I have nothing against tool-assisted speedruns, but this absolutely is a tool-assisted speedrun. As long as the records make that clear, then there's no issue.
Assey pad.
TURBO!!!!
If you can't use any sort of similar programmable automation on emulators, that controller should not be allowed to be used. Period. That's a clear-cut DQ to me within the current ruleset.
when you make a deal with the devil and allow turbo, you reap what you sow
Turbofire controllers aren't rare.
But when we start talking about obscure and rare japan only controllers that most people aren't going to be able to get their hands on as a requirement to beat a time because someone else used said controller, it pretty much disqualifies itself.
To say nothing of the fact that a programmable controller clearly does things outside of human ability, which really puts it closer to a tool assisted run at that point.
I gotta go with DQ. That's a tool, assisting the speedrun. I think there's a term for those.
Kind of a bad argument since you can say the exact same thing about using turbo... and turbo is allowed.
@@danlorett2184 you could argue the controller is a tool. You could also argue that i am a tool
I'd like to point out what you said in your video, the turbo was allowed for greater accessibility for the speedrun. If these aren't disqualified now every top speedrunner has to hunt down a specific controller to be competitive (although you could make the same argument for the turbo controller). Hardware can already be a huge pain in the ass to acquire for older games, and I think allowing a specific programmable controller would make that aspect even worse.
I really like this video, it brings up a controversial subject without condemning anyone.
One is money the other is limitations of people. The first can be argued for any equipment, the second is governed by law and social norms.
Either make it, it's own category.. or people will have to start buying konami controllers(seeing as people are using turbo controllers to run any% now) Why remove a new strat and DQ the new WR when nothing really was harmed.
in my opinion, it should be that is the controller is readily accessible (which i doubt) then the functions on it are fair game.
then again, my opinions are so incredibly WACK that i have no clue
Neat
I would definitely consider konami command contoller style programmed button sequences to be categorically different from mere turbo, and in some regards perhaps encroaching on TAS territory.
No hard feelings against a runner that brought this to the fore, though I do think particular runs in questions being DQed without any other penalty makes sense.
Not sure how allowing a turbo controller makes it more accessible, if anything it makes it less accessible to speed run the game since unless you have that controller you’re at an automatic disadvantage. Seems really dumb to allow those in speed runs.
Turbo controllers are allowed not programable controls. Done deal ban his runs.
Okey.
I think it's good.
Turbo =/= Macros
I see that you are a guy gas pronouncer as well!
I think the solution should be a mod that skips all text boxes other than menus and then ban turbo.
People don't watch speedruns for how fast text can scroll, and speedrunners don't want to wait for text either. If the difference between two speedruns is how fast their controller can mash through textboxes, then those textboxes just shouldn't be counted in the first place.
Poggers
I think it would have to be proven that his programmable controller provided benefits beyond just button mashing
Not a fan of this much hardware user aid. If this is allowed, a programmable button, why not add a serial port to your controller ( sounds fancyer than it actually is) and stream a full TAS as the "button program". I know this is nonsense, but in a way, there is little distinction in sending 3 presses with 1 button, or 1000s with that same button.
Game should be played with hardware as original as possible. Glitches etc are fine, as long they are performer by a human with the intended hardware.
I feel like, the record can't get any lower, let's change the rules. That's not how this works imho.
Honestly I think Turbo should be allowed in all games as long as it doesn't inherently break the game. While its possible to mash in a way that is responsible it could be very easy for someone who doesn't know how to mash safely (i.e. a kid) to hurt themselves in a way that can have lasting impact. Getting hurt for something you do for fun for a dumb reason is dumb lol.
many speedrunners who have to mash very often end up with severe wrist problems which can disable them for months-life. i agree with allowing turbo controllers
I thought this video was going to be about abusing copy protection, somehow. It's not.
Anyway… I don't think "turbo" functions should be allowed in hardcore speedrunning. Or, alternately, it should only be allowed to be as fast as the player. For example, I can do about 12 presses-per-second, consistently, so that would be my limit.
Basically, if it can't be done by a human, it shouldn't be allowed in a speedrun. That's my thoughts.
*Edit:* Oh! Or just make seperate leaderboards for Turbo / Script players. That seems fair to me.
I would think it just becomes a TAS right?
He used proper hardware and no outside tools. He used a fancy, OFFICIAL controller for turbos, which is within the rules. He simply found a loophole. His records should stand, and he should be commended for finding another way to speed up something like button mashing beyond simple turbo controllers.
the programmable controller would definitely push it towards being more like a TAS, but i don't really know if it should be disqualified or not
Turbo = tas
I don't understand the discussion honestly.
To me, having a programmable button on a controller making you able to mash text away in a desired fashion counts as a purchaseable unfair advantage over someone who doesnt have one for whatever reason.
Speedrunning is also about inclusiveness. Anyone can do it if they choose to do it. Making the barrier of entry arbritary because you NEED this specific controller to compete with the top ladder is ridicolous to me.