As a LONG time Maggie owner, I know how poor they sound when new, and how long they take to break in/loosen up. I would have thought YOU would know this too! So, I'm amazed that you did your measurements, with the intention of altering the crossover values, BEFORE they were completely run in!!! The bad looking initial frquency sweep you took, should have been a warning sign to you that things were not right. A brand new Maggie, or ANY new speaker, should NEVER be measured, for any comparative reason, least of all if you're going to seriously alter/modify anything within it!
You are 100% correct! It was my thought exactly even before he spoke about opening the boxes. I was thinking, I bet he didnt break them in, and sure enough he then went on to talk about measuring them right after setup. Ill tell you a related story.... I purchased LRS from an authorized dealer. I absolutely loved them and got them dialed in with subs. They were my first Maggies and it was only a month or so before I decided I had to move up the line. I wanted to hear the .7s and the 1.7s. I called the dealer and they said they had .7s ready to go and had a brand new pair of 1.7s in the box they would setup. I said great and booked an appointment the next day. They rushed and setup the 1.7s as quickly as they could, but when I arrived they were still "breaking them in." I was quite shocked actually. They were using some audio track (not music) that absolutely punished the new 1.7s where you could hear the panels slapping as they reached max excursion. I would never have dared to push my Maggies that hard, but I found out this was their way to speed up the break in process. However, when I listed to the .7s and the 1.7s, the .7s were better than my dialed LRS. The 1.7s that only had a few hours of extreme break in sounded like absolute crap. THis made my decision really tough. On listening alone, the 1.7s were crap but the ..7s were not a huge jump over the LRS with subs. There was a Saleperson there who was super knowledgeable (he actually has a very popular audio youtube channel now) who I asked for advice. I had told him earlier the 1.7s sounded like crap and he totally agreed. I told him I am leaning towards purchasing the 1.7s just on faith and the assumption that they are the better speaker but need a longer break in. He didnt try to sway me either way, but he responded that in his opinion the 1.7 was the better speaker. I rolled the dice and went with the 1.7s (they ordered me a new pair and I used my LRS in the meantime.) When I finally received the 1.7s they were absolutely amazing, but did take a long break in. I cant remember how long but I think it was in the range of 100-200 hours. To this day, they are definitely my favorite pair of Magnepans. Long story short, designing a crossover on measurements taken before adequeate break in means they will sound like crap once they are broken in. Good Luck! I would never let anyone rip apart my brand new Maggies btw. Use them for a few months and see where they are at before ripping them apart. LOL
Every upgrade video I watch makes me glad I don't have to do any of that stuff. X-statiks with upgrades, just burn them in and then think about what music you want to hear next. Nice and easy. It was a fun build, now I know more about speaker construction and direct to consumer marketing savings.
I tried to go the Xstatic route, last year, but endless backorder plus I know it would take 6 - 8 months to build with life's other comitments. Been enjoying my Maggie 1.7i s with servo sub. Upgraded stands and hope to upgrade to GR xovers at some point.
@@bryfar6178 Danny has a x-over for the 1.7, but I don't know how different the 1.7i is. I also have the Maggie 1.7i and a pair of CSS Criton 1 TD-X. The CSS speakers do some things better than the big panels. Same room, same gear. Amazing that a $1300 kit can best a $3000 pair of speakers.
@@Old_Sailor85 $3k wouldve been out of my range. Fortuneately I paid $1.3k. Got them 1 yr old pre burned in. I agree theyre not great hard rock speakers. Ripping lead guitars and scream vocals can be edgy,, but amazing for mid to soft rock, jazz, synth, etc. But after a couple beers it all sounds good. Lol.
@@bryfar6178 The Maggies are great with classical music if you like that sort of thing (which I do). I like all kinds of music from Bluegrass to Zydeco with lots of late 60s and 70s blues-based rock mixed in.
I think more speaker manufacturers should make speakers with external crossovers. That way you can buy them with stock or upgraded crossovers. Without having to disassemble them to access the crossovers. Possibly damaging something in the process.
Yeah, that's especially true with more truly "high-end" speakers like these ones! (External crossovers aren't really any significant advantage on cheaper speakers, like most "entry level" ones under say $200-300 or so, however, external, (and therefore much easier upgradeable), crossovers available for or already designed for the higher-end brands and models of speakers, especially once you get into the $2000-$3000 and up price ranges, would be VERY beneficial, especially since buyers of high-end speakers are also more appreciative of designs that actually bring out the very BEST sound quality in whatever gear they invest in, especially their speakers, which are of course the MOST significant and important part of any audio system towards getting the very BEST sound that you can get out of said system.
I have had a soft spot for panel speakers since the early 80's, owned the Typani IVa's, 3.6 & 20.7's, the Maggie crossovers have always been a real shortcoming so I would highly recommend considering this crossover upgrade if you're serious about Maggie's. And if you really want to take it to the extreme, active bi-amping or tri-amping is magical when done right. Short of the extreme expense & complexity, this looks like a really nice piece at a very reasonable price, two thumbs up Danny.
Every project you take on requires new challenges and with that comes a new skill set of knowledge to add into the DR and GR-Research “library”. That all contributes a great deal to the interest your dedicated followers demonstrate with each new presentation published here. Keep up the awesome content. I/we can’t seem to get enough of it.
GREAT STUFF DANNY! If (I hope not) my Mundorf modded 20.1s croak, the 3.7i and your mods are going to replace them (given I already have line source dipole subs). As usual, I look forward to your videos more than any other channel I am subscribed to 👍🏻
He claims the electronics and drive units will need 200 hours of “ burn in “ before they sound how they should then proceeds to design a crossover for a speaker he says is only half burnt in and will sonically change . So how does he know the crossovers will then be correct ? Be careful there’s a lot of snake oil being sold
After watching this video it reminded me to install the tube connectors I purchased sometime ago. I had upgraded the capacitors on my 1.6qr prior to having them factory refreshed a couple years ago. I was expecting an improvement from the tube connectors, but wow! Tighter and more resolution. Good stuff. The speaker cables made a big difference.
This is actually when this channel is at its best. Thanks- interesting topic. I'm curious though, did you listen before modifications? I would be interested in your comparative before/after assessment.
Especially from his comments about having unboxed them to the bench and then any lack of any burn in and later corrections because of it make me think he did not.
I found that Maggies sound best when you eliminate the speaker level XO all together and implement the XO at the line level. In this case you would be tri-amping. Phil Marchand (Marchand Electronics) will custom make you a Passive Line Level Crossover (PLLXO) with the specs you desire. I am running a set of Tympani 1D's this way and the results are amazing.
Unless he is setting up the speakers in front of a microphone and watching the measured responses as he designs then the crossovers then it will not work with this speaker or any other Magnepan model. The Magnepans are very unconventional and will not work with textbook slopes designed from electrical parameters.
@@Zenk61 I kind of agree with what Danny said about these speakers, above, in that they ARE very unique and different than anything else on the market, therefore making them considerably more challenging to notably improve than your "typical", everyday dynamic speaker, however, since I have an open mind, (AND IF I was actually rich enough to afford these speakers in the first place, lol), I would really love to hear and compare the differences between the improved/redesigned passive crossover that Danny designed here, with one that Phil would design for these speakers in the line level, (along with top notch tri-amplification of course), (which is of course a considerably more expensive way to listen to these, or ANY speaker for that matter, but that is another topic entirely), but anyway, then comparing those two different methods of design improvement, to see which method actually improves the overall sound quality of these speakers the MOST, and then be able to go with that... I have heard some great things done with LL X-overs and bi or tri amping, IF it's implemented correctly, taking into consideration all of the individual driver's parameters and comfortable frequency response ranges, but that method is ALSO a very good way to totally screw up the sound from a speaker system and make it sound even worse than it did originally if it's done without any consideration of a speaker's driver's individual characteristics, so LL X-overs have to be implented properly or else they're NOT worth doing, especially considering that it ALSO costs WAY more in amplification doing it that way! Regardless, it looks like Danny's re-designed crossovers shown here are definitely a relatively inexpensive AND considerable improvement in these speakers. The overall value for the money invested is definitely there, you can't deny that!
I had Advent model 1, AR3a's, Polk Audio SDA. I still have KEF reference series, dynaudio special 25, I mix through ATC45a pro monitors and I own a pair of stock 3.7i's that I bought shortly before seeing this video. I love Danny's videos and I have no doubt that swapping out the Crossovers would make a big difference over the crappy parts and wires and connectors and magnetic stuff they have in there. I bought these speakers because I originally bought the lrs on a whim and fell in love with the sound. When I first got these I was wondering if I had made a mistake but after hours of playing everything opened up and I I am really happy with the speakers. I don't sense the overlap of the drivers when I listen to them. I would like to see Danny do this same process with mine now that they're broken in and measure those because my speakers sound nothing like they did when I received them. I wonder if Danny has done any 3.7i upgrades since this video? Picturing myself renting a van and driving my speakers down to Texas
Just want to say . Danny you have my deepest respect for youre knowledge and wisdom. And how to deal with different speakers. And take time to explain for people like me. You dont just help people with their speakers, you take time to educate people. And on top of that you sell kits at its price point plays better than everything in simillar or even much over its price. But the absolute greatest thing is that you are willing to educate and share youre wisdom. And its a wonderful gift both to old "hifi nerds" like me. But also for new generations. To discover this wonderful field of hifi and diy. We all hifi enthusiasts have an obligation to pass over what really good sound is. That music listening is something more than Spotify, mp3s, thru poor listenibg gears. Thus without has to be high end stuff, we must introduce music listening to the new generations. And create an interest for something better. And a great and wonderful hobby and interest that for me also is something i want to give further to the next generation. You Danny are an wonderful ambassador for make this happen. Both for us who want to spend a lot. But also for those newly introduced to this wonderful world of hifi at an entry level and diy. So just wanted to spread some truth and love from Stockholm Sweden. Please excuse my bad school English. Sincerity/ Jonny
Great job, Years ago I started a mod project on a pair of older 3.5, you right the cross over was awful, I stiffened the panel with a number of braces, base much better impact, then I suffered some life setbacks I never finish them. I always felt the Maggie’s I had potential to be a much better speaker. My speaker at the time was a pair of Vandersteen 5 ‘s a good speaker, But I wanted height and more of a wall of sound, maybe I’ll get back to that project. That was a lot of work my friend
Very interested in these for mains. Thank you for the vid. Maybe they will have a GR version? Where they will provide the whole solution with your solution
I know I am replying to my own comment. I saw the thumbnail and was reminded of the 8k price. These are some of the most regaurded speakers for realistic sound? certainly for decades have been referenced and used in high end. I would love to hear a pair with the external cross over. 8k+1k maybe they drop the price w/o the cross over the factory...
Thank you for your insights into peformance characteristics of Magnapan speakers, and big panel speakers in general. Priceless. It's now crystal clear why those big panels never image with pin point specificity, and what their inherent limitations are.
....never image with pinpoint accuracy....? Such a broad statement in narrow in thinking. I beg to differ, I've got no problem pinpointing the vocalist from the violin from the drum set, etc., etc. As with any speaker, take the time for proper placement and some easy room enhancements and you'll get the "pin point" placement you want. My 3.7i's are proof - in my room / setup anyway.
As a long time Maggie owner and now owning 3.7i I would like to see them come from the factory with better stands and connectors( at least as an option). Lots of open baffle speakers now give the owner opportunity to play with crossovers using factory supplied upgraded parts. Many have external and quite accessible boards or boxes that are well marked to make changing XO parts easy and predictable. I really enjoy my Maggie’s but the company seems indifferent to the speaker’s shortcomings and requests by its dealers and customers in these regards. Thanks for the video and product Danny, hoping someone puts up a video showing more detail of the process.
OCD Mikey totally breaks out the tweeter.. ( that will work with your network ) Thanks for these videos , trying to do this by scrolling though forums was a big task ( in the past ) All this stuff EVERYTHING is MADE in USA
Wow, this channel is amazing. I just watched your other video about comparing a $350 speaker to a $4,000 speaker. I can't believe the components in each speaker were worth less than $10 each!!! That is an outrage... But I have two principle comments I'd like to ask if I may. Firstly, you've probably addressed this elsewhere, but would it be possible to have a recording of some music with the speakers, with before and after comparisons? I know as audiophiles that might sound like sacrilege. But channels like Sound Sommelier (high end hi fi store in Italy) do it, and obviously not listening quality sound, you can hear there are a lot more details brought out with that level of equipment. You can hear how crossover levels etc. give so much better definition to the sound. Secondly is quite a bit more challenging. I would be interested to know about the more expensive gear, what's in them and are things like the B&W Nautilus speakers really worth $60k? Can you reproduce that sound quality on a cheaper speaker for less money (even if upgrades to those speakers might cost several thousand dollars)? Sorry for my ignorance if these are dumb questions. Thanks
We have been working on the recording before and after music from them. I think we have it down now. Uploading them to a TH-cam file (compressed) just doesn't work out very well. They will have to be downloadable files that you can compare to really hear the differences. Some of those super expensive models step up the quality of the internals and some do not. More money doesn't mean higher quality all of the time, but sometimes it does.
would be nice to see what they look like inside. i doubt maggie would warranty as they don't know how the new x over was built etc but its a novel idea. my god tho they are inefficient and low impedance both! great video as always!!!
Hi Danny, Thanks for taking all the time and effort to make this video for all of us. Although everyone seems to be very tight-lipped about the differences between the 3.7 and 3.7i, I have a sneaking suspicion that the difference between the two is in the crossover, and the panels are identical - which would mean that your crossover would probably be even more of an improvement in the 3.7 than the 3.7i. In your conversations with Magnepan, have you learned anything that would make you think that the crossover would work in both models?
Like this clip. Some here say "measurements aren't the whole story" no it is an important part of it. All are important, no one aspect can prevail as only one. What I like is not necessarily what someone else will like, and that is fine. Congratulation to Dany on this level of investigation, measurements, calculations, tests, and trials, until he reaches proper speaker response parameters. So either MAGNEPAN engages Dany as an external consultant or has a word with someone behind all this disastrous finding about how the speaker is made by the manufacturer, for a price that is paid for that.
Also pay attention to the back of Magnepan. I've put two big wooden screens in a faint V shape behind my Magnepans about 4 feet away, the sound is incredible now, got a soundstage so big I don't want anything else, and that with a pair of SMGB Maggies.
@@FOH3663 Two panels were sawn of 120 by 50 centimeters, glued together at an angle of 140 degrees, the Magnepans are actually in a kind of giant horn. In my space they play to their fullest with the panels at the intersection, about 80 centimeters perpendicular behind the dipole.
@@bikall1 Yes, from the Netherlands, I have experimented a lot with the speakers, but this is a big improvement, the bass is also more beautiful, while there is no fusion of the sound in a negative sense
If people don't research it, it's well known, flat panel speakers are designed to be listened to from a specific listening window with a very specific speaker in room positioning. If you want big room filling even sound, get something else.
Roger Sanders has said that the electrostatic panels sound good only in the sweet spot, but then again conventional speakers sound good in no spot lol.
Been waiting for this one - - my order is already in - - thanks for the work Danny and thanks to the guy that sent them to you. As a side note, in the old days I did major work on my MGIIIa's including complete new crossovers with everything hard wired, not exaggerating, awesome results - - I'm expecting a similar story with Danny's crossovers. And yeah, hey, although I was warned by my dealer, when I first got this pair of 3.7i's I thought they were terrible - - what a change as they break in. I think they need 500 hours and they get even better from there, hard to believe there's so much difference but that's been my experience.
Yes, but in those days the crossovers were external to begin with, I rebuilt them with bypassed high end caps, high end wire and such, everything done with "Wonder" solder and everything as short as I could get (short signal path) - I would mention that the wire Danny was referring to, the one that runs to the top of the tweeter was (don't know what's in the 3.7i's) a high end "litz" type wire so I left that particular wire alone - was running Tara Labs top of the line speaker cables that I hard wired to both the crossovers and directly off the board of the power amp, killed me to screw with those expensive cables but I never looked back - still have those MGIIIa's kicking around, they were mounted (clamped) floor to ceiling (this was way before the "myestands" and all that) and naturally the "socks" and frames were long gone by the time I was satisfied I took them as far as I could - - I know that's probably more than you were looking for but I figured I give ya the whole rundown - haven't done much except to bypass the fuses in the 3.7i's, and by that I mean going behind the panel and actually bypassing them, - did one at a time, AB'ing, unmistakable improvement - I did get a set of "Magnarisers" but I haven't messed with those yet - - nice touching base with you Tex, later, Skip ( :
@@hifi2169 I appreciate your report Hi-Fi, I'm hoping and assuming that I'll feel the same as you after the upgrade - every so often I'd check Danny's site to see if he's offering a kit for the 3.7i's yet - so yeah, of course I've been hoping someone would get a pair to him. From my little corner of the world I really appreciate what you did. Anyway, again, only this time personally, I thank you.
@@jamesoconnor5903 Shame on me James - the age old excuse of being stupid busy - figured I get to them during the winter months but I didn't - gotta be honest, I'm not unhappy with what I'm getting for sound now so my motivation to get going on the work is a bit lacking - - I will definitely get it done at some point - I've picked some nice wood and pretty much have a game plan in place - - I'm intending on leaving the stock crossovers in in place - in case I want to do some AB'ing, I'm slightly apprehensive of Danny changing the slopes but for sure I'm going to do it - I'd be happy to gain some clarity & detail in the upper registers which I've gotta think I'm going to get that with the caps from his kit alone, let alone the inductors - I'd bet that you watched the video and I can attest that everything Dan sent is high end compared to the stock stuff - - anyway, sorry I can't report more - I'll try to remember you and comment back after I'm done, truth is, beside my business, I'm active in 2 other hobbies that are basically summertime activities so currently I'm straight out (ha, of course, like everyone else this time of year!) - thanks James - - Skip
I have a smaller 2 way mg model, and I removed the entire xover, added 2 amps and an electronic crossover to do the job. Mgs' xover comes with a little hole in the mids (a little bit recessed) and an inflated bass to seem that it has more bass than they have.
Great video Danny would love to see you do one on the lrs plus which is their starting tier speaker which more people can afford curious to see how they spec and what you would do to them to make them better God bless have a great day
I reckon you should get the ELAC BS41-BK bookshelf speaker, now priced at an amazing $87 at Amazon! If you cold improve the crossover components, posts and maybe put in some No-Rez, you would have an amazing speaker for the price. People would be happy to spend money to improve performance of what is already a good speaker.
So, making an $8000 speaker ~$9100 instead, but making them sound and perform at least twice as good, probably even more, I would say is VERY well worth it, because if you can already afford to invest in these speakers, then spending just over 10% more to make them actually sound as awesome and amazing as you're initially thinking they're going to, is definitely a step I would take with these, IF I could actually afford them in the first place! Danny, with how much better they perform and sound with your newly designed crossovers for these, (and for (relatively) not too much more than they already cost either), I wouldn't be surprised if Magnepan actually collabs with and pays you to make these crossovers a permanent design change for these speakers from the factory when bought new, straight out of the box! (At least they should seriously consider doing something like that with you if they really want these speakers to be the absolute BEST that they can be!)
I wish manufacturers would take a video like this and say for the same price we'll wire the drivers to three different binding posts in a 2.5 or 3 way design and you may use Danny's crossovers. A 4 way would be 4 binding posts, etc... Then all crossovers could be external.
You know what engineers say about fuse selection. Always select your components to protect the fuse. And at that price point, it might be worth building the worlds most complex crossover. You know, one to three notch filters on each driver to tame those peaks. /jk Great work on that off axis response. That is true magic right there.
For some interesting comments on x over design there is some insight presented on the cheap audio man’s interview around the design of the new source point 10 Mofi. Thoughts around flat response and which dips and rises in response might be desirable. Not meant as a comment on what Danny is doing but further insight by a designer.
I'm one of those "Maggie Guys" and I appreciate the detail and work that you put into this. That was very cool. I'd love to hear the changes. I personally have an older version of these speakers, the 3.5r, so I'm not sure the same modifications would help. I'm also reallllly happy with how they sound now, so I'm not sure I'd take the risk. But at some point, I'll probably need to tinker, as the wires start delaminating, I'll be tearing it apart anyway. Now, I know how much you like your tube connectors, but I can't say I do. I don't mean to be rude, but they look bad. I'm sure you have strong feelings about how they sound, and maybe they do sound better, but they look cheap and ugly. I would rather have a really nice set of binding posts that support different types of connections. Is there a kit that offers nicer binding posts? I can always order them separately.
Those tube connectors are the way they are for a reason. It is all about sound quality and performance, and nothing is better. This video explains it: th-cam.com/video/gInqJGvMT_8/w-d-xo.html
@@dannyrichie9743 I get the concept, and appreciate those that strive for every improvement. I'm just not there yet. I'm not a 5% improver, I need at least 10% or more to care enough. And don't get me wrong, I love your videos and tweaks and I've learned a ton, so many thanks!
I find them quite aesthetically pleasing... the minimalistic physics of it, ie., connection made with each conductor essentially end to end, shrouded in a copper tube. The signal transfer encounters minimal perturbation of the magnetic field. I find THAT appealing. I get it, you make a good point,... the classic look of a great input plate, with robust, well executed binding posts. Cool stuff like that is the big side hustle of being an audio enthusiast, the gear. I don't own any tube connectors, as both my rigs are active.
@@aweidenhammer I had an owner and designer at a well known company (not going to mention their name) that looked at the tube connectors and really liked them, but told me that he could not use them. Customers that buy at his price points expect "audio jewelry". I am sure he was right.
@@dannyrichie9743 I know to a purist, "audio jewelry" seems silly. But as a designer myself, there is real truth to it. We don't want ugly things in our home. We want well designed things. There are many audio devices that may be the greatest sounding in the world, but I would never give a home to. McIntosh amps are, I'm sorry to say, ugly as sin. They could be miles better than anything else, and I wouldn't choose it. Likewise, Chord. Those things look like they were built by cartoon wizards. Just silliness that I can't pay anything but cartoon money for. So, yeah, there's a balance that need be paid attention to.
Interestingly the Magnepan site does not mention Warranty anywhere. But when I bought my 1.7i's some time ago it stated that the tweeters were not warrantied!
It would be interesting to measure a set of Apogee Acoustics speakers of similar size (Duetta Signature or Diva) and see how they compare. Having compared the two in listening tests, I can understand why Magnepan were afraid enough to decide to sue them practically into the ground.
These were on my list but the idea of negotiating with Magnepan on such a major redesign pretty much kills my interest. I really appreciate the video for illuminating the situation.
They do sound great with the original XO's, so I'd keep that in mind. If you want to upgrade them that's great, but it doesn't mean that the speakers sound bad to begin with -- stock, they pretty much trounce anything in their price range on acoustical music.
I have these speakers (bought them new) and love them. I wish I could just have someone do all this for me rather than spending the time (which I don’t have) and hassle trying it myself. I heard a couple of people saying Magnepan does some mods as well.
Much better than the original but not perfect yet. to get it perfect, you probably need up to 15 filter parts. on my 2 way, I had to use 12 parts in total! if I had spent so much time sending a speaker, I would have demanded a little better
It’s always been pretty much acknowledged that the Maggies excel in the drivers but the crossover and wiring connections have always been a bit suspect. I wish you would get together with magna pan and develop an upgrade with your external crossover and magnepan providing the input connectors on the back of the speaker as you describe without any internal crossover. It would be great to be able to buy the entire package from one vendor. In any event well done and much appreciated
*everyone watching needs to understand that Mags are not ordinary speakers, these have a magical sound, "when setup properly. Moving these 1 inch in your room will make a significant difference in 3D imaging therefore changing the crossover when it's measured in a room that is not going to be played at and not only that but not knowing at what toe in these will be perfect at for the room of the user, although the desired outcome is logical the frequency response of the owner might be awful* if you hear the sound that's coming from the speakers and not behind it then don't toe them in at all
And taking measurements from speakers straight from the box, no break in. No wonder the reading looked bad. I wonder what that reading would be in a month or two without any upgrade. Would it even need an upgrade in two months. It would be nice to see someone upgrade Danny's speakers with better parts and improve his speaker measurements. Everyone in these comments doesn't seem to consider all speakers are made to a price point. If that was not so and they were only built to the best that was humanly possible, only 20 people in the world would own a speaker.
Of axis Much better !! good job. i really have no clue why they try to let them play all together. they need to use the drivers for what they are made for bass is for bass mid for mid tweet for top end. and yes that means more expensive and complicated crossover, else the bass is not gone yet before the mids plays along and the mid not gone before the tweeter starts.. its just dumb
Hi, first of all, very interesting and very well done. However, I have to admit that I have been owning Maggies since early 90th, current model is a 3.7. They were a nice upgrade to the my >20 year old 3.3r. Anyway, what I was a bit surprised about whas the frequency response you showed. I did that all myself at my seating position and at least here my 3.7 si quite linear, starting at 30Hz up to over 20MHz, falling slowy over from 30Hz-20KHz of about 5-7db. There is only a very slight peek around 500Hz, IMO just some room resonance. Only modification I did on that older version of the 3.7 is to have new "feet" attached. The amp is a JR625 ;-) and yes, they need power. Regarding the fuses I can only admit that they already saved my Maggies lives as by the time they were attached to a JR Continuum and my boy simply turned volume to max the fuses blew away... Guess distortions where just to high - whatever. With the 625 at highest output there is no such flaws - anyway. Coming back to my point. Guess it would be good if you could attach some pictures on how you measured the speakers. From my end I would say that to near is not a good idea but I would also not have a much different approach in mind. I am used to measuring mine always in room and at listening position..... Thanks again for putting such efforts in measuring and tweaking.... Greatings from Germany, Torsten
Thanks for watching. I measured them from various distances to see what the differences were. Not only was the original response a problem but the parts quality (lack there of) was also a problem.
Danny's measurements may be picking up the fact the new speakers had not yet been broken in. Sure the components are not premium quality as it's built to a price. But those would be the same components as in your panels. Perhaps that shows you the importance of breakin and room placement are having a greater impact on measurement than components.
It could, but the way to do it and get the most gain isn't to divide the panel up into different amps. It would be to filter the lows off of it and send the bottom end to some servo subs.
Wow You Did it a gain A AJ HomeRun I have a chance to by 3.7i with the sub & stands I still have my Krell Ksa150 Bat VK32se preamp Thiel 3.6 At 70 yo old USMC Veteran This is a big $ buy for me getting cold on pulling the trig its my last HoRa i woul def buy you amazing crossovers what can you advise please
the $1100 cost for the new xovers may sound like a lot of money unless it's expressed as a percentage of the new price of the speakers. the suggestion of approaching the factory to save the effort and physical integrity of the speakers, eliminating the need to de-staple and re-staple the grill cloths to allow the external xover box is the intelligent approach. a cooperative venture to improve all of Magnepan's speakers would be a considerartion for Magnepan, profitable for both companies. ...hifitommy
Hi Danny. How did you account for the reflections coming from the rear of the speaker? If they were not placed the correct distance from the wall, throwing the timing off for the sound coming from the rear of the speaker, this could have accounted for your measurements. Placed in a regular room setting, they may not work as well after these changes. Did you account for all of these factors? Thank you for the video.
Danny, I am going to get the Maggie 1.7i. Have you already done a mod for that? If not, would it be better fir me to send them to you after I’ve played them in, or direct from the factory?
Since the mid-range panel plays up to 10kHz I can't help wonder how it would work if you let it play to almost that high and then use the tweeter as an ultra high frequency driver. It's just an idea but maybe you didn't have to use the notch filter at 7kHz then?
I don't see why companies like Magnipan don't purchase a license from Danny, bump the price up a thousand dollars, and call it the Magnepan 3.7i Danny Richie modified. Kinda like a Callaway twin-turbo Corvette.
I prefer to use a DEQX and triamp my MG 3.6's. Works a treat. I also added a second DEQX and a pair of GR Research - Rhythmik open baffle servo subs below 50 Hz.
The rize down low, is because it is measured to close :( + the typical 500Hz Hump on all maggies. because the drivers are crossed to high. since it is open baffle IT need to ryze under 300hz when measured up close. at distance it will lose that rise. the crossover work on those is pretty bad. i dont know if they ever calculate the wavelength to see where it should be crossed at least. like.... that mid should cover 300-400hz and up crossed low enough again to the tweeter. now why they did not ? my guess output. this way you have most output and most simple filter. since the bass panel has a rising response you should cross them really low so acoustically it will end up much higher. this means huge coils.. or multiple coils and caps if steeper filter was used. lets not forget there is not much room for multiple coils and caps to get the filter that they deserved. when measured so close it should roll off from down to high freq. so a weird slope, but if you measured it after at 2 meter. it would be almost flat
If these came straight from the manufacturer, they had no break in period. I wonder what the measurements would have been if the Maggies were played for a couple hundred hours.
I was mistaken. The customer had these for a while, and they were burned in. The way he re-boxed and packed them it looked like they just left the factory.
Ok, at first the bass was very punchy, then, as bass started to smooth out, the mid range was very pronounced Vocals seem to be the main attraction. Now that the crossovers are more than likely 100% burned in, (it always takes longer than you think)everything has really smoothed out. -Done.
Are you kidding me? The 3.7i’s were going to be my forever speakers. Now, I can’t imagine spending all that money for the speakers themselves and then some to get them to sound good. Sad. Thanks for taking on this project and for the very detailed video.
I can not imagine Magnepan giving warranty on this mod, if done by the consumer. What is needed, is a collaboration between Megnepan and GR research. Also, the way the crossover connects to the three drivers, leaves too much room to connect the woofer-out signal to the tweeter. At the very least you should have six different colors of tube connectors and wiring, to make it a bit more idiot proof and contemplate warranty. Other than that, this is a great upgrade. Is the $1100,- for one or two speakers? And do you get the cross over enclosure with it?
@@davestevens4193 I agree but with the enclosure and all I was expecting it to cost more. It could be that the enclosures are not included and that you have to McGyver something your self.
I really find it hard to accept that one method can be used to measure all speakers accurately. These PMS was designed with a listening distance and position in mind, a position where the OEM expects premium performance with all the time arrivals are expected.
We had one of them sent in. They did measure poorly, but it was nearly impossible to remove the drivers to work on them. So there was no way of making a simple upgrade that the customers could implement.
Hello Danny, I read an old Audiocircle forum post where you performed or recommended mods for the SMGa. I have SMGa that I bought new in 1990, and would LOVE your upgrade kit/parts if possible. Should I just email you through the website?
As a LONG time Maggie owner, I know how poor they sound when new, and how long they take to break in/loosen up. I would have thought YOU would know this too! So, I'm amazed that you did your measurements, with the intention of altering the crossover values, BEFORE they were completely run in!!! The bad looking initial frquency sweep you took, should have been a warning sign to you that things were not right. A brand new Maggie, or ANY new speaker, should NEVER be measured, for any comparative reason, least of all if you're going to seriously alter/modify anything within it!
That doesn't have anything to do with how poor the crossover design was.. nor how that translated into off axis response
You are 100% correct! It was my thought exactly even before he spoke about opening the boxes. I was thinking, I bet he didnt break them in, and sure enough he then went on to talk about measuring them right after setup. Ill tell you a related story.... I purchased LRS from an authorized dealer. I absolutely loved them and got them dialed in with subs. They were my first Maggies and it was only a month or so before I decided I had to move up the line. I wanted to hear the .7s and the 1.7s. I called the dealer and they said they had .7s ready to go and had a brand new pair of 1.7s in the box they would setup. I said great and booked an appointment the next day. They rushed and setup the 1.7s as quickly as they could, but when I arrived they were still "breaking them in." I was quite shocked actually. They were using some audio track (not music) that absolutely punished the new 1.7s where you could hear the panels slapping as they reached max excursion. I would never have dared to push my Maggies that hard, but I found out this was their way to speed up the break in process.
However, when I listed to the .7s and the 1.7s, the .7s were better than my dialed LRS. The 1.7s that only had a few hours of extreme break in sounded like absolute crap. THis made my decision really tough. On listening alone, the 1.7s were crap but the ..7s were not a huge jump over the LRS with subs. There was a Saleperson there who was super knowledgeable (he actually has a very popular audio youtube channel now) who I asked for advice. I had told him earlier the 1.7s sounded like crap and he totally agreed. I told him I am leaning towards purchasing the 1.7s just on faith and the assumption that they are the better speaker but need a longer break in. He didnt try to sway me either way, but he responded that in his opinion the 1.7 was the better speaker. I rolled the dice and went with the 1.7s (they ordered me a new pair and I used my LRS in the meantime.)
When I finally received the 1.7s they were absolutely amazing, but did take a long break in. I cant remember how long but I think it was in the range of 100-200 hours. To this day, they are definitely my favorite pair of Magnepans.
Long story short, designing a crossover on measurements taken before adequeate break in means they will sound like crap once they are broken in. Good Luck! I would never let anyone rip apart my brand new Maggies btw. Use them for a few months and see where they are at before ripping them apart. LOL
Every upgrade video I watch makes me glad I don't have to do any of that stuff. X-statiks with upgrades, just burn them in and then think about what music you want to hear next. Nice and easy. It was a fun build, now I know more about speaker construction and direct to consumer marketing savings.
Hehe. I hear ya. Value proposition isn’t bad at all.
I tried to go the Xstatic route, last year, but endless backorder plus I know it would take 6 - 8 months to build with life's other comitments. Been enjoying my Maggie 1.7i s with servo sub. Upgraded stands and hope to upgrade to GR xovers at some point.
@@bryfar6178 Danny has a x-over for the 1.7, but I don't know how different the 1.7i is. I also have the Maggie 1.7i and a pair of CSS Criton 1 TD-X. The CSS speakers do some things better than the big panels. Same room, same gear. Amazing that a $1300 kit can best a $3000 pair of speakers.
@@Old_Sailor85 $3k wouldve been out of my range. Fortuneately I paid $1.3k. Got them 1 yr old pre burned in. I agree theyre not great hard rock speakers. Ripping lead guitars and scream vocals can be edgy,, but amazing for mid to soft rock, jazz, synth, etc. But after a couple beers it all sounds good. Lol.
@@bryfar6178 The Maggies are great with classical music if you like that sort of thing (which I do). I like all kinds of music from Bluegrass to Zydeco with lots of late 60s and 70s blues-based rock mixed in.
I think more speaker manufacturers should make speakers with external crossovers. That way you can buy them with stock or upgraded crossovers. Without having to disassemble them to access the crossovers. Possibly damaging something in the process.
Yeah, that's especially true with more truly "high-end" speakers like these ones! (External crossovers aren't really any significant advantage on cheaper speakers, like most "entry level" ones under say $200-300 or so, however, external, (and therefore much easier upgradeable), crossovers available for or already designed for the higher-end brands and models of speakers, especially once you get into the $2000-$3000 and up price ranges, would be VERY beneficial, especially since buyers of high-end speakers are also more appreciative of designs that actually bring out the very BEST sound quality in whatever gear they invest in, especially their speakers, which are of course the MOST significant and important part of any audio system towards getting the very BEST sound that you can get out of said system.
@Dave Reite Good thing we have GR Research
@Dave Reite Why can't he do both?
I really agree with you here
Or just offer powered speakers so no one has to monkey around with this.
I have had a soft spot for panel speakers since the early 80's, owned the Typani IVa's, 3.6 & 20.7's, the Maggie crossovers have always been a real shortcoming so I would highly recommend considering this crossover upgrade if you're serious about Maggie's. And if you really want to take it to the extreme, active bi-amping or tri-amping is magical when done right. Short of the extreme expense & complexity, this looks like a really nice piece at a very reasonable price, two thumbs up Danny.
Excellent rebuild, looking forward to your next video.
Every project you take on requires new challenges and with that comes a new skill set of knowledge to add into the DR and GR-Research “library”. That all contributes a great deal to the interest your dedicated followers demonstrate with each new presentation published here. Keep up the awesome content. I/we can’t seem to get enough of it.
Another great job sir !!! What I love about your channel is your transparency, integrity, & your audio knowledge. Thank you, TMP from N.J.
GREAT STUFF DANNY! If (I hope not) my Mundorf modded 20.1s croak, the 3.7i and your mods are going to replace them (given I already have line source dipole subs). As usual, I look forward to your videos more than any other channel I am subscribed to 👍🏻
He claims the electronics and drive units will need 200 hours of “ burn in “ before they sound how they should then proceeds to design a crossover for a speaker he says is only half burnt in and will sonically change . So how does he know the crossovers will then be correct ? Be careful there’s a lot of snake oil being sold
I am really glad you did this Danny.
Magnepans are popular and interesting so it is pleasing to see your view and work
Great stuff Danny! (as always)
Danny, love the hat and rabbit illustration on the YT episode cover! You crack me up man! Keep up the good work and honesty!
I was as surprised to see it as the rest of you. Ron creates those and does a great job with them.
Great video. I'm always impressed with what you do. 👍
Best best best Magnepan breakdown and measurements analysis. Thank you… owner of 4 Magnepan speakers.
Thank you Danny excellent video.
Excellent video! Thanks from a former owner of the Maggie 20.0 & 20.1s.
wow, very impressive video and a sizeable amount of work performed.
Great stuff ..Always enjoyable
Excellent video Danny. Thanks for doing it.
After watching this video it reminded me to install the tube connectors I purchased sometime ago. I had upgraded the capacitors on my 1.6qr prior to having them factory refreshed a couple years ago. I was expecting an improvement from the tube connectors, but wow! Tighter and more resolution. Good stuff. The speaker cables made a big difference.
Hi I have a pair of 1.6 qr too which I love can u tell me more about the mods u have made to yours please.....thanks Jon.
Nice work Danny!
This is actually when this channel is at its best. Thanks- interesting topic.
I'm curious though, did you listen before modifications?
I would be interested in your comparative before/after assessment.
Especially from his comments about having unboxed them to the bench and then any lack of any burn in and later corrections because of it make me think he did not.
Outstanding Dan!! You all are amazing.
Awesome video!
I found that Maggies sound best when you eliminate the speaker level XO all together and implement the XO at the line level. In this case you would be tri-amping. Phil Marchand (Marchand Electronics) will custom make you a Passive Line Level Crossover (PLLXO) with the specs you desire. I am running a set of Tympani 1D's this way and the results are amazing.
Unless he is setting up the speakers in front of a microphone and watching the measured responses as he designs then the crossovers then it will not work with this speaker or any other Magnepan model. The Magnepans are very unconventional and will not work with textbook slopes designed from electrical parameters.
Danny… or anyone else for that matter, is welcome to come hear the results for yourself. I think you will find it is worth your time.
@@Zenk61 I kind of agree with what Danny said about these speakers, above, in that they ARE very unique and different than anything else on the market, therefore making them considerably more challenging to notably improve than your "typical", everyday dynamic speaker, however, since I have an open mind, (AND IF I was actually rich enough to afford these speakers in the first place, lol), I would really love to hear and compare the differences between the improved/redesigned passive crossover that Danny designed here, with one that Phil would design for these speakers in the line level, (along with top notch tri-amplification of course), (which is of course a considerably more expensive way to listen to these, or ANY speaker for that matter, but that is another topic entirely), but anyway, then comparing those two different methods of design improvement, to see which method actually improves the overall sound quality of these speakers the MOST, and then be able to go with that...
I have heard some great things done with LL X-overs and bi or tri amping, IF it's implemented correctly, taking into consideration all of the individual driver's parameters and comfortable frequency response ranges, but that method is ALSO a very good way to totally screw up the sound from a speaker system and make it sound even worse than it did originally if it's done without any consideration of a speaker's driver's individual characteristics, so LL X-overs have to be implented properly or else they're NOT worth doing, especially considering that it ALSO costs WAY more in amplification doing it that way!
Regardless, it looks like Danny's re-designed crossovers shown here are definitely a relatively inexpensive AND considerable improvement in these speakers. The overall value for the money invested is definitely there, you can't deny that!
Whoa!! 6 amps plus custom xovers... I guess $$$ is no object.
Correction 3 amps. Still big $, but if you can do it, knock yourself out!
One of the most impressive things about Maggie's is the lack of coloration in the midbass, so acoustic instruments sound extremely realistic
+ vocals, especially female!
I had Advent model 1, AR3a's, Polk Audio SDA. I still have KEF reference series, dynaudio special 25, I mix through ATC45a pro monitors and I own a pair of stock 3.7i's that I bought shortly before seeing this video. I love Danny's videos and I have no doubt that swapping out the Crossovers would make a big difference over the crappy parts and wires and connectors and magnetic stuff they have in there. I bought these speakers because I originally bought the lrs on a whim and fell in love with the sound. When I first got these I was wondering if I had made a mistake but after hours of playing everything opened up and I I am really happy with the speakers. I don't sense the overlap of the drivers when I listen to them. I would like to see Danny do this same process with mine now that they're broken in and measure those because my speakers sound nothing like they did when I received them. I wonder if Danny has done any 3.7i upgrades since this video? Picturing myself renting a van and driving my speakers down to Texas
Love your videos man ❣️wish you could share some opinion on high end focal speakers
if someone wants to send us one, we'll take a look at them!
Just want to say .
Danny you have my deepest respect for youre knowledge and wisdom. And how to deal with different speakers.
And take time to explain for people like me. You dont just help people with their speakers, you take time to educate people.
And on top of that you sell kits at its price point plays better than everything in simillar or even much over its price.
But the absolute greatest thing is that you are willing to educate and share youre wisdom.
And its a wonderful gift both to old "hifi nerds" like me.
But also for new generations. To discover this wonderful field of hifi and diy.
We all hifi enthusiasts have an obligation to pass over what really good sound is.
That music listening is something more than Spotify, mp3s, thru poor listenibg gears.
Thus without has to be high end stuff, we must introduce music listening to the new generations. And create an interest for something better. And a great and wonderful hobby and interest that for me also is something i want to give further to the next generation.
You Danny are an wonderful ambassador for make this happen.
Both for us who want to spend a lot. But also for those newly introduced to this wonderful world of hifi at an entry level and diy.
So just wanted to spread some truth and love from Stockholm Sweden.
Please excuse my bad school English.
Sincerity/ Jonny
Thank you.
Great job, Years ago I started a mod project on a pair of older 3.5, you right the cross over was awful, I stiffened the panel with a number of braces, base much better impact, then I suffered some life setbacks I never finish them. I always felt the Maggie’s I had potential to be a much better speaker. My speaker at the time was a pair of Vandersteen 5 ‘s a good speaker, But I wanted height and more of a wall of sound, maybe I’ll get back to that project. That was a lot of work my friend
Very interested in these for mains. Thank you for the vid. Maybe they will have a GR version? Where they will provide the whole solution with your solution
I know I am replying to my own comment. I saw the thumbnail and was reminded of the 8k price. These are some of the most regaurded speakers for realistic sound? certainly for decades have been referenced and used in high end. I would love to hear a pair with the external cross over. 8k+1k maybe they drop the price w/o the cross over the factory...
Thank you for your insights into peformance characteristics of Magnapan speakers, and big panel speakers in general. Priceless. It's now crystal clear why those big panels never image with pin point specificity, and what their inherent limitations are.
....never image with pinpoint accuracy....? Such a broad statement in narrow in thinking. I beg to differ, I've got no problem pinpointing the vocalist from the violin from the drum set, etc., etc. As with any speaker, take the time for proper placement and some easy room enhancements and you'll get the "pin point" placement you want. My 3.7i's are proof - in my room / setup anyway.
As a long time Maggie owner and now owning 3.7i I would like to see them come from the factory with better stands and connectors( at least as an option). Lots of open baffle speakers now give the owner opportunity to play with crossovers using factory supplied upgraded parts. Many have external and quite accessible boards or boxes that are well marked to make changing XO parts easy and predictable. I really enjoy my Maggie’s but the company seems indifferent to the speaker’s shortcomings and requests by its dealers and customers in these regards. Thanks for the video and product Danny, hoping someone puts up a video showing more detail of the process.
OCD Mikey totally breaks out the tweeter.. ( that will work with your network ) Thanks for these videos , trying to do this by scrolling though forums was a big task ( in the past ) All this stuff EVERYTHING is MADE in USA
Wow, this channel is amazing. I just watched your other video about comparing a $350 speaker to a $4,000 speaker. I can't believe the components in each speaker were worth less than $10 each!!! That is an outrage...
But I have two principle comments I'd like to ask if I may. Firstly, you've probably addressed this elsewhere, but would it be possible to have a recording of some music with the speakers, with before and after comparisons? I know as audiophiles that might sound like sacrilege. But channels like Sound Sommelier (high end hi fi store in Italy) do it, and obviously not listening quality sound, you can hear there are a lot more details brought out with that level of equipment. You can hear how crossover levels etc. give so much better definition to the sound.
Secondly is quite a bit more challenging. I would be interested to know about the more expensive gear, what's in them and are things like the B&W Nautilus speakers really worth $60k? Can you reproduce that sound quality on a cheaper speaker for less money (even if upgrades to those speakers might cost several thousand dollars)?
Sorry for my ignorance if these are dumb questions. Thanks
We have been working on the recording before and after music from them. I think we have it down now. Uploading them to a TH-cam file (compressed) just doesn't work out very well. They will have to be downloadable files that you can compare to really hear the differences.
Some of those super expensive models step up the quality of the internals and some do not. More money doesn't mean higher quality all of the time, but sometimes it does.
would be nice to see what they look like inside. i doubt maggie would warranty as they don't know how the new x over was built etc but its a novel idea. my god tho they are inefficient and low impedance both! great video as always!!!
Hi Danny,
Thanks for taking all the time and effort to make this video for all of us. Although everyone seems to be very tight-lipped about the differences between the 3.7 and 3.7i, I have a sneaking suspicion that the difference between the two is in the crossover, and the panels are identical - which would mean that your crossover would probably be even more of an improvement in the 3.7 than the 3.7i. In your conversations with Magnepan, have you learned anything that would make you think that the crossover would work in both models?
What a gigantic JOB ! WOW!!!
This speaker is a great candidate for a Hypex three channel plate amp with built in DSP crossover. A very economical way to upgrade them.
This is the real deal. Fantastic.
Like this clip. Some here say "measurements aren't the whole story" no it is an important part of it. All are important, no one aspect can prevail as only one. What I like is not necessarily what someone else will like, and that is fine. Congratulation to Dany on this level of investigation, measurements, calculations, tests, and trials, until he reaches proper speaker response parameters. So either MAGNEPAN engages Dany as an external consultant or has a word with someone behind all this disastrous finding about how the speaker is made by the manufacturer, for a price that is paid for that.
Also pay attention to the back of Magnepan. I've put two big wooden screens in a faint V shape behind my Magnepans about 4 feet away, the sound is incredible now, got a soundstage so big I don't want anything else, and that with a pair of SMGB Maggies.
are you also dutch?. i got the LRS (modded by GR) like to discuss this
How tall are the V panels and which way is the V oriented?
@@FOH3663 Two panels were sawn of 120 by 50 centimeters, glued together at an angle of 140 degrees, the Magnepans are actually in a kind of giant horn. In my space they play to their fullest with the panels at the intersection, about 80 centimeters perpendicular behind the dipole.
@@bikall1 Yes, from the Netherlands, I have experimented a lot with the speakers, but this is a big improvement, the bass is also more beautiful, while there is no fusion of the sound in a negative sense
@@bikall1 How do you like the mod? I have the LRSs as well.
That's a lot of work done there.
If people don't research it, it's well known, flat panel speakers are designed to be listened to from a specific listening window with a very specific speaker in room positioning. If you want big room filling even sound, get something else.
Roger Sanders has said that the electrostatic panels sound good only in the sweet spot, but then again conventional speakers sound good in no spot lol.
Been waiting for this one - - my order is already in - - thanks for the work Danny and thanks to the guy that sent them to you. As a side note, in the old days I did major work on my MGIIIa's including complete new crossovers with everything hard wired, not exaggerating, awesome results - - I'm expecting a similar story with Danny's crossovers. And yeah, hey, although I was warned by my dealer, when I first got this pair of 3.7i's I thought they were terrible - - what a change as they break in. I think they need 500 hours and they get even better from there, hard to believe there's so much difference but that's been my experience.
Nice, external crossover?
Yes, but in those days the crossovers were external to begin with, I rebuilt them with bypassed high end caps, high end wire and such, everything done with "Wonder" solder and everything as short as I could get (short signal path) - I would mention that the wire Danny was referring to, the one that runs to the top of the tweeter was (don't know what's in the 3.7i's) a high end "litz" type wire so I left that particular wire alone - was running Tara Labs top of the line speaker cables that I hard wired to both the crossovers and directly off the board of the power amp, killed me to screw with those expensive cables but I never looked back - still have those MGIIIa's kicking around, they were mounted (clamped) floor to ceiling (this was way before the "myestands" and all that) and naturally the "socks" and frames were long gone by the time I was satisfied I took them as far as I could - - I know that's probably more than you were looking for but I figured I give ya the whole rundown - haven't done much except to bypass the fuses in the 3.7i's, and by that I mean going behind the panel and actually bypassing them, - did one at a time, AB'ing, unmistakable improvement - I did get a set of "Magnarisers" but I haven't messed with those yet - - nice touching base with you Tex, later, Skip ( :
@@hifi2169 I appreciate your report Hi-Fi, I'm hoping and assuming that I'll feel the same as you after the upgrade - every so often I'd check Danny's site to see if he's offering a kit for the 3.7i's yet - so yeah, of course I've been hoping someone would get a pair to him. From my little corner of the world I really appreciate what you did. Anyway, again, only this time personally, I thank you.
How did the new crossovers work out? You happy? I'm thinking of doing this upgrade as well.
@@jamesoconnor5903 Shame on me James - the age old excuse of being stupid busy - figured I get to them during the winter months but I didn't - gotta be honest, I'm not unhappy with what I'm getting for sound now so my motivation to get going on the work is a bit lacking - - I will definitely get it done at some point - I've picked some nice wood and pretty much have a game plan in place - - I'm intending on leaving the stock crossovers in in place - in case I want to do some AB'ing, I'm slightly apprehensive of Danny changing the slopes but for sure I'm going to do it - I'd be happy to gain some clarity & detail in the upper registers which I've gotta think I'm going to get that with the caps from his kit alone, let alone the inductors - I'd bet that you watched the video and I can attest that everything Dan sent is high end compared to the stock stuff - - anyway, sorry I can't report more - I'll try to remember you and comment back after I'm done, truth is, beside my business, I'm active in 2 other hobbies that are basically summertime activities so currently I'm straight out (ha, of course, like everyone else this time of year!) - thanks James - - Skip
I have a smaller 2 way mg model, and I removed the entire xover, added 2 amps and an electronic crossover to do the job. Mgs' xover comes with a little hole in the mids (a little bit recessed) and an inflated bass to seem that it has more bass than they have.
Great video Danny would love to see you do one on the lrs plus which is their starting tier speaker which more people can afford curious to see how they spec and what you would do to them to make them better God bless have a great day
Here you go.
Now for the Martin Logans!!
I reckon you should get the ELAC BS41-BK bookshelf speaker, now priced at an amazing $87 at Amazon! If you cold improve the crossover components, posts and maybe put in some No-Rez, you would have an amazing speaker for the price. People would be happy to spend money to improve performance of what is already a good speaker.
I bough the Dynaudio Special 40 upgrade from Danny and wow, what a revelation. He knows what he's doing.
any response from M'pan themselves? Cool video.
So, making an $8000 speaker ~$9100 instead, but making them sound and perform at least twice as good, probably even more, I would say is VERY well worth it, because if you can already afford to invest in these speakers, then spending just over 10% more to make them actually sound as awesome and amazing as you're initially thinking they're going to, is definitely a step I would take with these, IF I could actually afford them in the first place!
Danny, with how much better they perform and sound with your newly designed crossovers for these, (and for (relatively) not too much more than they already cost either), I wouldn't be surprised if Magnepan actually collabs with and pays you to make these crossovers a permanent design change for these speakers from the factory when bought new, straight out of the box! (At least they should seriously consider doing something like that with you if they really want these speakers to be the absolute BEST that they can be!)
I wish manufacturers would take a video like this and say for the same price we'll wire the drivers to three different binding posts in a 2.5 or 3 way design and you may use Danny's crossovers. A 4 way would be 4 binding posts, etc... Then all crossovers could be external.
Great work it would be nice if you and Wendall could do a collaboration where he sells Maggies with your crossover boards installed.
You know what engineers say about fuse selection. Always select your components to protect the fuse.
And at that price point, it might be worth building the worlds most complex crossover. You know, one to three notch filters on each driver to tame those peaks. /jk
Great work on that off axis response. That is true magic right there.
Danny the magician for sure!
EPIC job!
For some interesting comments on x over design there is some insight presented on the cheap audio man’s interview around the design of the new source point 10 Mofi. Thoughts around flat response and which dips and rises in response might be desirable. Not meant as a comment on what Danny is doing but further insight by a designer.
The new 'Dannypans' 😁😁
Even when doing gated its best to drag panels outside due to how the rearwave affects the measured response ..!
Any rear wave output is gated away and not present in the measure responses.
Watching this video, I appreciate the frequency response I get from my old $250 pair speakers...lol
I'm one of those "Maggie Guys" and I appreciate the detail and work that you put into this. That was very cool. I'd love to hear the changes. I personally have an older version of these speakers, the 3.5r, so I'm not sure the same modifications would help. I'm also reallllly happy with how they sound now, so I'm not sure I'd take the risk. But at some point, I'll probably need to tinker, as the wires start delaminating, I'll be tearing it apart anyway.
Now, I know how much you like your tube connectors, but I can't say I do. I don't mean to be rude, but they look bad. I'm sure you have strong feelings about how they sound, and maybe they do sound better, but they look cheap and ugly. I would rather have a really nice set of binding posts that support different types of connections. Is there a kit that offers nicer binding posts? I can always order them separately.
Those tube connectors are the way they are for a reason. It is all about sound quality and performance, and nothing is better. This video explains it: th-cam.com/video/gInqJGvMT_8/w-d-xo.html
@@dannyrichie9743 I get the concept, and appreciate those that strive for every improvement. I'm just not there yet. I'm not a 5% improver, I need at least 10% or more to care enough. And don't get me wrong, I love your videos and tweaks and I've learned a ton, so many thanks!
I find them quite aesthetically pleasing... the minimalistic physics of it, ie., connection made with each conductor essentially end to end, shrouded in a copper tube.
The signal transfer encounters minimal perturbation of the magnetic field.
I find THAT appealing.
I get it, you make a good point,... the classic look of a great input plate, with robust, well executed binding posts.
Cool stuff like that is the big side hustle of being an audio enthusiast, the gear.
I don't own any tube connectors, as both my rigs are active.
@@aweidenhammer I had an owner and designer at a well known company (not going to mention their name) that looked at the tube connectors and really liked them, but told me that he could not use them. Customers that buy at his price points expect "audio jewelry". I am sure he was right.
@@dannyrichie9743 I know to a purist, "audio jewelry" seems silly. But as a designer myself, there is real truth to it. We don't want ugly things in our home. We want well designed things. There are many audio devices that may be the greatest sounding in the world, but I would never give a home to. McIntosh amps are, I'm sorry to say, ugly as sin. They could be miles better than anything else, and I wouldn't choose it. Likewise, Chord. Those things look like they were built by cartoon wizards. Just silliness that I can't pay anything but cartoon money for. So, yeah, there's a balance that need be paid attention to.
Interestingly the Magnepan site does not mention Warranty anywhere. But when I bought my 1.7i's some time ago it stated that the tweeters were not warrantied!
There's no way they are going to warrenty that.
It would be interesting to measure a set of Apogee Acoustics speakers of similar size (Duetta Signature or Diva) and see how they compare. Having compared the two in listening tests, I can understand why Magnepan were afraid enough to decide to sue them practically into the ground.
These were on my list but the idea of negotiating with Magnepan on such a major redesign pretty much kills my interest. I really appreciate the video for illuminating the situation.
They do sound great with the original XO's, so I'd keep that in mind. If you want to upgrade them that's great, but it doesn't mean that the speakers sound bad to begin with -- stock, they pretty much trounce anything in their price range on acoustical music.
I have these speakers (bought them new) and love them. I wish I could just have someone do all this for me rather than spending the time (which I don’t have) and hassle trying it myself. I heard a couple of people saying Magnepan does some mods as well.
Much better than the original but not perfect yet. to get it perfect, you probably need up to 15 filter parts.
on my 2 way, I had to use 12 parts in total!
if I had spent so much time sending a speaker, I would have demanded a little better
Hi have u done any work with the magnepan 1.6r at all as regards x over improvements .....loved this episode ....thank you .
Just the standard 1.6.
It’s always been pretty much acknowledged that the Maggies excel in the drivers but the crossover and wiring connections have always been a bit suspect. I wish you would get together with magna pan and develop an upgrade with your external crossover and magnepan providing the input connectors on the back of the speaker as you describe without any internal crossover. It would be great to be able to buy the entire package from one vendor. In any event well done and much appreciated
*everyone watching needs to understand that Mags are not ordinary speakers, these have a magical sound, "when setup properly. Moving these 1 inch in your room will make a significant difference in 3D imaging therefore changing the crossover when it's measured in a room that is not going to be played at and not only that but not knowing at what toe in these will be perfect at for the room of the user, although the desired outcome is logical the frequency response of the owner might be awful* if you hear the sound that's coming from the speakers and not behind it then don't toe them in at all
And taking measurements from speakers straight from the box, no break in. No wonder the reading looked bad. I wonder what that reading would be in a month or two without any upgrade. Would it even need an upgrade in two months.
It would be nice to see someone upgrade Danny's speakers with better parts and improve his speaker measurements. Everyone in these comments doesn't seem to consider all speakers are made to a price point. If that was not so and they were only built to the best that was humanly possible, only 20 people in the world would own a speaker.
Of axis Much better !! good job. i really have no clue why they try to let them play all together. they need to use the drivers for what they are made for bass is for bass mid for mid tweet for top end. and yes that means more expensive and complicated crossover, else the bass is not gone yet before the mids plays along and the mid not gone before the tweeter starts.. its just dumb
Hi, first of all, very interesting and very well done. However, I have to admit that I have been owning Maggies since early 90th, current model is a 3.7. They were a nice upgrade to the my >20 year old 3.3r. Anyway, what I was a bit surprised about whas the frequency response you showed. I did that all myself at my seating position and at least here my 3.7 si quite linear, starting at 30Hz up to over 20MHz, falling slowy over from 30Hz-20KHz of about 5-7db. There is only a very slight peek around 500Hz, IMO just some room resonance. Only modification I did on that older version of the 3.7 is to have new "feet" attached. The amp is a JR625 ;-) and yes, they need power. Regarding the fuses I can only admit that they already saved my Maggies lives as by the time they were attached to a JR Continuum and my boy simply turned volume to max the fuses blew away... Guess distortions where just to high - whatever. With the 625 at highest output there is no such flaws - anyway.
Coming back to my point. Guess it would be good if you could attach some pictures on how you measured the speakers. From my end I would say that to near is not a good idea but I would also not have a much different approach in mind. I am used to measuring mine always in room and at listening position.....
Thanks again for putting such efforts in measuring and tweaking.... Greatings from Germany, Torsten
Thanks for watching. I measured them from various distances to see what the differences were. Not only was the original response a problem but the parts quality (lack there of) was also a problem.
Danny's measurements may be picking up the fact the new speakers had not yet been broken in. Sure the components are not premium quality as it's built to a price. But those would be the same components as in your panels. Perhaps that shows you the importance of breakin and room placement are having a greater impact on measurement than components.
Have them and love them! Guess it's upgrade time...
They say you need to get Maggie’s in the exact right place to sound right and it takes a lot of work. Now it starting to make sense why.
These speakers are so wild in terms of physics 😂 gotta love ‘em… until I get my X statics
Well done. Can the new crossover bi amp?
It could, but the way to do it and get the most gain isn't to divide the panel up into different amps. It would be to filter the lows off of it and send the bottom end to some servo subs.
Wow You Did it a gain A AJ HomeRun I have a chance to by 3.7i with the sub & stands I still have my Krell Ksa150 Bat VK32se preamp Thiel 3.6 At 70 yo old USMC Veteran This is a big $ buy for me getting cold on pulling the trig its my last HoRa i woul def buy you amazing crossovers what can you advise please
You can order them online from our site.
That big treble peak layed across all material played through these ... seems awful to imagine.
the $1100 cost for the new xovers may sound like a lot of money unless it's expressed as a percentage of the new price of the speakers. the suggestion of approaching the factory to save the effort and physical integrity of the speakers, eliminating the need to de-staple and re-staple the grill cloths to allow the external xover box is the intelligent approach. a cooperative venture to improve all of Magnepan's speakers would be a considerartion for Magnepan, profitable for both companies.
...hifitommy
The X package is the only upgrade I would consider even at $4k more. At least engineers look at it before deciding what to stuff in there
That's funny.
Hi Danny. How did you account for the reflections coming from the rear of the speaker? If they were not placed the correct distance from the wall, throwing the timing off for the sound coming from the rear of the speaker, this could have accounted for your measurements. Placed in a regular room setting, they may not work as well after these changes. Did you account for all of these factors? Thank you for the video.
I use a gated time window for the measurements. So there is no rear wave or wall reflections in the measurements.
Yeah, but how many sheets of norez? 🤣
Wow.... Tech support too!?
Danny, I am going to get the Maggie 1.7i. Have you already done a mod for that? If not, would it be better fir me to send them to you after I’ve played them in, or direct from the factory?
An upgrade for that model is available on our website.
Since the mid-range panel plays up to 10kHz I can't help wonder how it would work if you let it play to almost that high and then use the tweeter as an ultra high frequency driver. It's just an idea but maybe you didn't have to use the notch filter at 7kHz then?
Then as soon as you move left or right the time arrival differences cancel out the response.
I don't see why companies like Magnipan don't purchase a license from Danny, bump the price up a thousand dollars, and call it the Magnepan 3.7i Danny Richie modified. Kinda like a Callaway twin-turbo Corvette.
Are the 3.6r the same panels ,tweeter than the 3.7r?
I prefer to use a DEQX and triamp my MG 3.6's. Works a treat. I also added a second DEQX and a pair of GR Research - Rhythmik open baffle servo subs below 50 Hz.
The rize down low, is because it is measured to close :( + the typical 500Hz Hump on all maggies. because the drivers are crossed to high. since it is open baffle IT need to ryze under 300hz when measured up close. at distance it will lose that rise.
the crossover work on those is pretty bad. i dont know if they ever calculate the wavelength to see where it should be crossed at least. like.... that mid should cover 300-400hz and up crossed low enough again to the tweeter. now why they did not ? my guess output. this way you have most output and most simple filter. since the bass panel has a rising response you should cross them really low so acoustically it will end up much higher. this means huge coils.. or multiple coils and caps if steeper filter was used. lets not forget there is not much room for multiple coils and caps to get the filter that they deserved.
when measured so close it should roll off from down to high freq. so a weird slope, but if you measured it after at 2 meter. it would be almost flat
I measured them at various distances to confirm the response.
If these came straight from the manufacturer, they had no break in period. I wonder what the measurements would have been if the Maggies were played for a couple hundred hours.
I was mistaken. The customer had these for a while, and they were burned in. The way he re-boxed and packed them it looked like they just left the factory.
@@dannyrichie9743 i would pin that at the top.
Tell us what happens in a crossover network as it burns in.
Ok, at first the bass was very punchy, then, as bass started to smooth out, the mid range was very pronounced Vocals seem to be the main attraction. Now that the crossovers are more than likely 100% burned in, (it always takes longer than you think)everything has really smoothed out.
-Done.
Has Danny done a show on why steel parts are so awful in the signal path?
All steel parts hold residual charges and become magnetic once electricity passes through them and this degrades and muffles the sound.
Any word from Magnepan regarding if they’re willing to sell the 3.7i’s without a crossover and with GR Research’s tube connectors installed?
Ask them. They might.
I checked with Magnepan. They won’t sell speakers without their crossovers installed.
@@irawong I'll check into it.
Are you kidding me? The 3.7i’s were going to be my forever speakers. Now, I can’t imagine spending all that money for the speakers themselves and then some to get them to sound good. Sad.
Thanks for taking on this project and for the very detailed video.
They sound great without the mod, so I wouldn't worry on that count. The mod will just make them sound better.
I can not imagine Magnepan giving warranty on this mod, if done by the consumer. What is needed, is a collaboration between Megnepan and GR research. Also, the way the crossover connects to the three drivers, leaves too much room to connect the woofer-out signal to the tweeter. At the very least you should have six different colors of tube connectors and wiring, to make it a bit more idiot proof and contemplate warranty.
Other than that, this is a great upgrade. Is the $1100,- for one or two speakers? And do you get the cross over enclosure with it?
He always prices for a pair.
@@davestevens4193 I agree but with the enclosure and all I was expecting it to cost more. It could be that the enclosures are not included and that you have to McGyver something your self.
I really find it hard to accept that one method can be used to measure all speakers accurately. These PMS was designed with a listening distance and position in mind, a position where the OEM expects premium performance with all the time arrivals are expected.
84db effecient AND 3-4 ohms. What a bear to drive
Evaluating a Maggie with less than 300 hrs on it is a mistake.
Really shouldn't do critical listening till the panels have 500 hrs.
I want an upgrade kit for the triangle br03s please
We had one of them sent in. They did measure poorly, but it was nearly impossible to remove the drivers to work on them. So there was no way of making a simple upgrade that the customers could implement.
Gonna need a big block of cheese for this one 🧀
Hello Danny, I read an old Audiocircle forum post where you performed or recommended mods for the SMGa. I have SMGa that I bought new in 1990, and would LOVE your upgrade kit/parts if possible. Should I just email you through the website?
We did an upgrade on the MMG.
@@dannyrichie9743 If you get around to the SMGa, just take my money!