I feel like the need for a "Movement special" is a bit tacked on. All of the other qualifications feed into the very core of how spacies play and therefore the archetype definition. But "Movement special" is so vague that things that might fall into it can have radically different effects on playstyle. Anything thay lumps ZSS backflip and Kragg Armor Ball into the same category is probably not a terribly useful category. Feels like just having 1 2 3 and 5 would be more descriptive.
At most, the "movement special" may be something that contributes to a larger point: just to spitball, maybe something about how spaces play neutral. Like, some character's "movement special" is what unlocks or contributes the ability to shmoove the way you expect a spacie to, while others have it built into their character's properties, and whether or not they have a specific move for it doesn't matter.
@@TheAmberFang Fox/falco shmovement has nothing to do with their side B tho, at least outside of between stock peacocking or training mode drills, which I would argue do not contribute to the function of an archetype. Its low endlag moves, fast fall speed, and being able to jump out of shine.
It's also important to note that the difference in Archetypes between FGC and Plat Fighters is kind of based on an Endgoal Vs Tools available. Because the endgoal is different (Depleting a life bar Vs. Knocking someone offstage) you get "Archetypes" in Smash that have tools that dont translate/exist onto the FGC. For every Shoto, Grappler, Rushdown, Zoner in the FGC... you can't really translate those onto Plat fighters? Take for example Donkey Kong in Smash 4. He had a Combo throw that works at both 0% and kill %. He was the closest to a grappler you could get... but guess what? Grapplers are defined in the FGC for having Looooong life bars that let them survive punishment, and while its true that DK has the weight to survive onto pretty high %.... his poor exploitable recovery often meant that you could kill him at super early percents!!! because of the endgoal of smash is to throw them offstage, racking damage isnt a necessity when you can just footstool him off his double jump and watch as he dies at "Full health" offstage because his Up B doesnt actually help him survive. There's a video by Ramses Esports that goes into a much more easily defineable archetype list at w8pK8WeNvIA He argues that names like "Spacie" are more of a way to describe tools available on a character, but that actual archetypes to define endgoals in platform fighters are much simpler based on threat range: Zoner, Trapper, Waller, Opportunist, Brawler, Zone-breaker Good video btw. Very informative :)
I just found you from joining rivals with the demo, but you are really becoming the top video creator when it comes to platform fighters. Having someone that analyzes the genre as a whole not just a specific game furthers the identity of the genre.
Fun fact: Ultra Fishbunjin is a Fishbun that has traveled space and got swollen out of sheer willpower and determination. Whether he was born in space or was born on earth and simply ascended is unknown. But by all accounts, he is a Space Animal 1000%
2:39 I'm going to attempt a definition rn before he actually says it and see how close I am. 1. Fast reflector with a hitbox 2. Projectile for damage and stage control, but that doesn't kill or ledge trap 3. Exploitable recovery, usually with an angleable charge and low weight stat 4. High movement stats and relative fastfaller 5. High damage output via combos and fast fast/oppressive framedata 6. Mostly "brawler hiboxes" without massive disjoints In summary: relative glass cannons, with a hybrid rushdown playstyle and shine = spacie
I think Ninjas (Sheik, Greninja, Ranno, etc) and Swordies (Marth, Clairen, Roy, Ike, Zhurong, etc) are two of the most common, but there's definitely a bunch. I've been trying to think of a name for the Puff/Metaknight/Wrastor/Kirby/Masked Ruby archetype for a bit now.
@@Gabriel64468 thats fair, althought i think you can bend the concept of shine a little without it not counting. A teleport like shine move sounds insanely cool for instance.
The one thing I think you should consider adding is how spacies are their high vertical speed. Something about their gravity allows them to move up and down very very quickly. For Fox, it's simply the high gravity. For PM Lucas, it's interrupting the double jump midway. Which does allow them to become "combo food", but it allows so much more for their moveset too.
I'm a spacie main and to me it's a bit more simple: - good advantage (especially combos) - bad disadvantage (trash recovery, combo food, lighter weight usually) - fast faller And yes, that makes Falcon a spacie. I have a problem with your "shine has to start combos" criteria because it would mean that e.g. Falco in Ultimate is not a spacie, haha.
While watching this, I was thinking about Fight of Animals: Arena. This game is barely a platform fighter, yet it comes quite close to having space animals. No-one in this game is particularly easy to combo, but everyone has a very bad and exploitable vertical recovery, and a universal burst movement option in dashing. 3 characters in this game have standard projectiles, and out of those 3, magic squirrel is the one with the most explicitly combo-focussed special: his down special. This move cannot exactly be jump cancelled, but can be cancelled into dash which can be interrupted with a jump quite quickly.
Really solid video! although I think that when figuring out what makes a spacie a spacie ultimately, the main focus should be on the ideas behind their playstyle, not just the specific tools they have. like how a "shoto" is generally defined by having a well rounded playstype with no major strengths or weaknesses...which THEN manifests by good normals, a straightforward gamepla, well rounded specials, and a fireball. Spacies all seem to be about controlling the tempo of a match by having aggresive, freedom offense and pressure...in exchange for exploitability when the tables turn on them. basically a subset of glass canons in a way!
The weird part about stardust valkyries is that Ayrie, the character with the most obvious space animal laser and side b in that game, isn’t particularly easy to combo, and has a weirdly versatile recovery because her up b creates a platform which travels diagonally upwards, and grants her free movement from it.
I thi k El tigre counts. Because to be real. We've had sgoto without a projectile. Shaun from sf3 and nobody. Is saying his isn't a sgoto. Despite the shot archetype being so vague the only real factors are the 3 main moves. Dragon punch, tatsu, fireball. So El tigre lacking a projectile is the least of my concerns. It's just a space animals that can't foece arpoaches with projectiles making him a sort of. Rush down, or brawler spacie. Not able to camp even if slightly so he do everything a spacie do. But forwarding every interactions himself.
There's a fun parallel with shotos in traditional fighters where the definition is a bit more narrow than other archetypes, most games have a character that fits the mold, and there are also plenty of weird edge cases and characters that are sort of shoto-adjacent Like, the general definition of the shoto archetype is: - purely motion input-based character without charge moves (unless it's a simple input game like Fantasy Strike or Pocket Rumble) - basic projectile - anti-air move that can pull double duty as a reversal (usually meterless in games where characters actually get to have meterless reversals) - forward-moving attack with some sort of evasive property - relatively basic normals geared towards a mid-range playstyle And you have plenty of edge cases and pseudo-shotos - Sagat in Street Fighter is very obviously supposed to parallel Ryu in terms of his moveset - he is Ryu's original rival after all. However he's also much more specialized towards zoning - Tiger Knee is more of an anti-air than a move you use to get in while putting out a hitbox, he's able to chuck his fireballs faster and while mixing up the height on them, his normals are generally longer, etc. - Poison in SFV specifically has a very shoto-adjacent gameplan, just replacing the projectile with a long-range strike - King of Fighters has a *ton* of characters that feel like pseudo-shotos. Kyo sometimes has a rekka instead of a fireball. Terry's main invincible anti-air is a charge move. Joe Higashi's main anti-air usually travels more forward. Andy Bogard and Ryo Sakazaki don't have a proper meterless fireball in some games. K' has a fireball but it's as a follow-up to another move
I feel like you can argue lucas has special based movement because of all the weird momentum stuff that happens with mag. out of all the pseudo spacies you mentioned he is by far the closest to being a spacie
In unmodded vanilla _Ultimate_ but not in other _Smash_ games, fall speed and gravity values are homogenized for moves with vertical knockback, which actually makes spacies in that game generally less vulnerable to combos involving moves with vertical knockback (e.g. up aerial ladders, up tilt combos etc.) relative to the roster, and when combined with their typically low weight, nullifies most of their otherwise unusually high vulnerability to combos. They're still highly vulnerable to horizontal combos (e.g. Minecraft Steve's jab/forward tilt combo), however.
I'm slightly biased but I'd love to see a swordie breakdown. I made one myself a while back but strictly in the context of SSBU, so I'd love to see an expanded look at the archetype. Also would really like to see a heavy archetype breakdown. Something that I think makes it super intriguing is how its defined more by character parameters rather than moveset. Bowser, DK, Charizard, Kragg, Loxodont, Plankton, Jason, these are off the top of my head and I can't think of a single moveset similarity that unifies them all. It makes the archetype pretty diverse, imo. Loved the video, excited for more!
I've been trying to think about how to include Brawlhalla in this series, and it's honestly really difficult since that game is SO different with how items work.
@@atWisely I think grapplers would probably be the easiest - with Tezca in mind, but the recent hammer boots(?) legend might also work I also think swordies might be good for BH since most attacks are disjoints
Why does the additional movement option have to be a special? I feel like by just widening that to "an additional movement option that isn't available to most of the cast" we can easily include PM Lucas. DACUS might be controversial, since every character technically has it even if it doesn't do anything for most of them, but DJC has to count. There is also the tether - sure that is unavailable for onstage play, but realistically Illusion for Melee Falco and Fox are also pure recovery tools - well and for styling occassionally. Thinking about it that way I am honestly sceptical if a secondary movement tool even is that vital to Spacies. Maybe rephrasing it entirely into "Two alternative recovery types" makes more sense.
I didn't want it to be a universal game option like DACUS because then it opens up a huge number of other edge cases, but I could definitely see tweaking this to be "alternative recovery option" down the road as more characters get added, for sure
good video! I feel like to me all it really takes to be a spacie is having a shine, having a high apm requirement (being the kind of character who really needs to shmove in their neutral and punish), and being a glass canon in some way (usually recovery). This definition would include the earthies from pm, and everyone included here afaik. also interesting to think about this regarding hdr. theyve given a lotta characters shines of some kind, which ones count as spacies? dark pit? king k rool? sora a 3rd of the time? mii gunner if you give him the right down b?
PM Lucas may not have a movement special that uses special input, but he does have airdodge into zair/tether. That’s like a pseudo movement tool special. It moves him pretty far at max range, he’s intangible for airdodge portion, it’s an alternate way to grab the stage, and it has a hitbox that can be used to close distance & confirm pk freeze or link other combos. Id still call him a pseudo space animal, but he’s realllllllly close to the real deal.
@@johnleecooper8520 yeah if he’s at full drift and does a freeze into b-reversed magnet glide it gives him a nice burst of distance, it’s pretty exposed but you could call it a movement special, it gives him a gimmicky but usable mixup.
interesting to think of HDR dark pit as a spacie. i think the only thing keeping him out is maybe his recovery + multiple jumps, but i think it's probably exploitable enough to count. or maybe i'm just excited because i find that character fun as fuck
I don't think spacies are an archetype. Being a fastfaller is a great strength in exchange for getting tech chased which is closer to an archetype Plat fighter devs are giving us what they THINK we want when copy-pasting Star Fox characters, but us spacie players literally only care about who has the shine
The game "Stardust Valkyries" would've been a good one to look at. Every character in that game has a shine so you'd have that aspect already controlled for as you check for the other attributes.
For jump cancellables in ult, even though it's not nearly the same Wolf can jump cancel his shine on hit and somewhat combo out of it but very unreliably (Falco can't and for Fox I'm not sure).
Now make a spacie with a good recovery a projectile to run in behind and combo throws and you've got a character with no weakness... Oh wait no you've got zetterburn
Great video! Really helped to categorize what is normally an archetype you normally base only on "feels". I would love to see an archetype video on platform fighters takes on grapplers, since I feel like that doesn't get defined very well besides by maybe Donkey Kong in Smash and Urdah in Rushdown Revolt.
I'm glad we're including the pseudo-spacie label, since it gives a term for character who aren't technically spacie but definitely play like Fox. I would personally add Pika/Pichu and Joker to this category.
lucas does have magnet pull as a "movement side b", but it kinda got nerfed to oblivion in 3.5 so thats honestly fair lol. ill still main that character till i die. fire vid
Awesome video! I especially like your emphasis on projectiles as an essential component since it takes the spacie archetype away from "pure rushdown" territory. I was recently thinking about who the "shoto" of platfighters is, and spacies, especially of the zetter/wolf variety, seem like a solid pick. I'd be interested in hearing what you think of the floatier archetypes like multi-jump characters (Jigglypuff, Meta Knight, Wrastor) or float characters (Peach, Pomme. PM Ganon). I'd also ask about "free flight" characters if Elliana wasn't literally the only example I could think of.
In the vein of Elliana PM Mew Two float probably counts. But theres so few examples that I hesitate to call it an archetype. Float Characters maybe is more of an archetype and Elli and M2 could be called variations on the theme.
I've always proposed a "cheater" archetype that encompasses characters like ult rob and steve, where they're just extremely good at several different things that would normally define an archetype on their own like zoning or tods or good boxing. I think this is the only way to reconcile smash's general disregard for the concept of archetypes and generally anticompetitive design
I would love a dive into what exactly it means to be a 'setplay character' The examples of characters that fit into this group always seem wildly different from each other to me
Setplay is a term for characters who set up some kind of element that needs to be played around. Often, this is some kind of projectile, but it could also be a movement tool or threatening trap. A really good example of this would be Bridget from Guilty Gear, who sets up yoyos that can be used for tricky movement, mixups, and as an automatic followup. For examples from Platform Fighters, think characters like Snake with his grenades and mine, or Orcane with his puddles.
I still remember a poll on here that was voting on the best recovery in Melee and I had people arguing with me that Fox has a better recovery than Peach or Puff and I felt like I was going insane.
Where do you think mii brawler fits in? Brawler has fastfaller parameters and shares many normals with Fox, as well as with Mario, or has visibly similar moves. Shot Put is a projectile option; Burning Drop Kick, Suplex, and of course Feint Jump all constitute movement specials. I think what keeps him on the fringes of the archetype are his (dependent on moveset) highly versatile recovery and his lack of JC special - but in Ultimate, Fox can't JC shine either!
This is an amazing video overall and honestly I hope to see it at a million+ views some day. I love all of your content and hope to see Rivals 2 thrive for years to come. Thank you for your contributions to keeping the community thriving!
Is La Reina (at least as she exists on workshop) a space animal? Hear me out. Projectile: Chair. Movement special: Side-b and down-b (with chair) Combo food: Heavyweight The last two points are a bit more contentious, though. Exploitable Recovery is a bit hard to say. Hitting her opponent or using her chair can turn her mediocre side-b>wall jump>up-b into a much more free form and interesting recovery, but those aren't consistent options. She needs to either have her chair positioned for it or pull it out mid-air in order to use it for recovery, the former of which requires setup and can be denied by the opponent hitting the chair and the latter of which is slow and telegraphed, and of course she can't use her opponent to get her resources back and recover unless her opponent slips up and gets grabbed. The shine is probably where she's most likely disqualified, but her chair can very much fill that role in some ways when drawn back with neutral special. Its hitbox comes out fairly early, and if your opponent is on top of it, it is a nasty combo starter. I think La Reina at least qualifies as a pseudo-spacie.
I love this video! Hopefully itll help lit to rest the discussion on what a space animal is. ....HOWEVER! I would like to bring up PM Lucas one more time, and heres why: in movement tool, you say thay it could be a divebomb, illusion, or... A burst to kill move While *technically* not character specific, Lucas has the farthest reaching DACUS in the game and he zooms across the stage! If that isnt a burst to kill movement tool, i dont know what is!
Personally, I think that with 8 out of 11 actual Spacies (9 if you count 64 Fox), not being considered "Spacies" under this definition its bound to lead to unnecessary confusion. I think a term like "Foxlike" would be better. On the surface it has a similar issue in that 3/5 Foxes wouldnt be "Foxlikes" but Foxlike isnt an existing term used to describe characters so there wouldnt be a situation where two phrases are used to mean two different things. I know that not all Spacies are inhernetly based on Fox, I dunno how valid it is but some people say Zetterburn is more of like Wolf or a Spacie Combo than just a Fox clone, but since the idea of Melee Fox is the root of inspiration for most of these characters I still think it makes more sense. Spacie has gotten so much traction it's probably too late but thats just my opinion.
What would you consider Powdered Toast Man in Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl as then. He’s got shine, projectiles, is combo food, and has an exploitable recovery. If you want to get nitty and gritty you can say dash attack cancels can be some sort of special movement. Would you consider him Hybrid cuz he’s a heavy hitter, or would you consider him pseudo-spacy dash attack cancels don’t have the right connotation to be a movement special.
Discussed this with a friend and gave it more thought. I don't know all the characters you listed real well, but gonna go out on a limb and say Rushdown is a notable part of their gameplan. Spacie probably works more scientifically as a sub-category of that archetype IMO. If you're Rushdown but lack a Shine and a projectile, chances are you're likely not be a Spacie. If you have all 5 (or at least 4) of those attributes, but are mainly a Keep-Away character like Sephiroth, it wouldn't sit right to call you a Spacie. What do you think?
I like the young link playstyle in ultimate, not sure what I'd classify it as, maybe rush down zoner? Would love to know more about that and if something fitting that niche might be coming from Rivals 1.
Space animal: Reflector/type of "shine", blaster, charge recovery that sends you in a direction, fireball/blaster It's like shoto = Shoryu, tatsu, fireball Of course, variations of these moves, etc. But that's what they're known for.
i dont think fish is very close to a fox/falco/wolf in my head characteristically tho he does have wolf's shine. his recovery is ewxplotable yes but space animals recoveries to me are more about the mixups you can do with them since they have shine stall, sideb with shorten and upb angles, where fishybunjin just has dumbell stall and upb. the punish game is explosive more akin to falcon as you said in the video but fishybunjin just does not have the consistent quick movement that as a space animal has since most of his burst movement is locked behind his sideb.
The important part of the Jump Cancel isnt really the jump, its that it takes you from an animation to a fully actionable state. Loxo def is not a spacie.
But, this characters still a shotos XD shotos are characters intermedium with decent normals, decent neutral with at least 1 movement special, projectile and a decent anti air, they are shotos in what a a platform fighter are
CommanderVideo was snubbed... 😢 But like actually, CV from Fraymakers feels like an evolution of the spacie archetype since he gets a rainbow trail when hitting the opponent, allowing him to jump cancel *any* of his specials one time, needing to hit his opponent again to get it back. He even has his "shine" and movement tool special on the same move, side special. All of this works together to make his combo game all about using movement to keep your advantage and strong combo game, while also having the archetypical extremely exploitable recovery
People used to joke about this all the time, though if we were to undergo this definition... would Ridley technically be a Spacie? Aside from LITERALLY being a animal (or monster) from space, he does possess some of traits presented here. - Projectile? He's got one. - Combo Food? Check. - Committal Recovery? Despite being able to fly, he's pretty exposed These next two are big maybes, depending how much you're whiling to leave open: - Shine? Ehhhhh.... the closest equivalent is his Nair. A move that shares some of Shine's combo functions, gimping ability and heavy reliance on since it's arguably his best move. (Not sure on this one) - Movement Tool Special? Again, massive stretch. He is a fast runner with a Side-B and Up-B (and I guess Dair if you really wanna count it) that *can* be used as a burst options... but they're often very commit and not very... burst option-y. (I'd personally say, no) Depending who you ask, you could make a case for Ridley as a Pseudo-Spacie. One that just takes plenty of DNA from the Heavyweight and Swordie archetypes. Though if you're willing to be that generous, you could overlap a say... Glasscannon Shoto as a Spacie... (Which actually doesn't sound too far off in a way. lol) What do you think?
@@MrGameguyC Sephiroth's Nair is relatively slow, but even giving him that, his massive end lag gives him a significantly worse combo game than most spacies. Outside of that, however, Sephiroth's Up-special, counter, and projectiles comfortably put him in the running for the title of Space Animal (Or at least grant him honorary status)
@@thatonegaminglatias4345Will say that a keep-away design doesn't really fit the spirit of a Spacie in the eyes of many. I go into more detail in another comment.
@@MrGameguyC Exactly. Sephiroth has many of the tools of a spacie, but his gameplay ends up entirely different (due to his normals) - therefore he is not a space animal. Comparing Sephiroth and Fox seems to be like comparing Guile and Ryu, both of whom have rather similar tools (Invincible Anti-Air, Fireball) but play and control very differently
great video! my main note would be that the movement special feels like an unnecessary criterion. Additionally I would argue that fox and Falco's side b is almost useless as a movement tool and instead is almost purely a recovery tool, and as such could be argued to not fit this criterion themselves. also frankly I would say that any criterion that excludes pm Lucas is probably one that is overly limiting. he feels more like a spacie than damn near anyone else. one additional criterion that I think might be reasonable to include is "good frame data." I feel like having fast moves to be able to throw out in neutral is important to a character feeling like a spacie
@@atWisely yes sorry spacie! I was hoping you were gonna go into his movrset more at the end haha. And yes stardust valk is being made by a single developer atm, I’m not sure how many of the characters would be considered a spacie though.
Would smash ultimate pichu be a pseudo space animal? He definitely isn't a real one due to lacking a shine but he falls fast, has a projectile, has many movement tools and has an exploitable recovery as his up-b has no hitbox coupled with his ledge grab box and hurt box while grabbing the ledge making him VERY easy to two frame Perhaps he'd be too hard to combo due to his small stature
Loving all the content you've been putting out recently! Can't wait to see the future vids once the game gets more characters and develops a deeper meta.
I wish I could understand your words, but your beard is just so amazing…I lose track of everything else! Na. I am not into platform fighters anymore but your content is fire!
The funny thing about zetterburn's shine is that it doesn't even reflect projectiles, it juat does what you expect a shine to do combo-wise.
0:42 The swordie archetype video is gonna be 10 seconds long
what do you mean idk what the swordie is
"Swordies are characters that use a sword"
@@DylanMatthewTurner ult Roy is NOT a swordie
@@DylanMatthewTurneryou forgot the main thing, the most important characteristic of a swordie, attacks are stronger at the tip of the sword.
@@TheGhostgodzilla so Lucina and Chrom aren't swordies? (these are just some examples)
Wisely you are the spacie of plat fighter youtubers
I'm versatile with a high skill ceiling?
@@atWisely you can use your glasses to shine your opponent
You know off cam this dude dash dances like a monster
He's definitely a fast faller
@@atWisely yes
I feel like the need for a "Movement special" is a bit tacked on. All of the other qualifications feed into the very core of how spacies play and therefore the archetype definition. But "Movement special" is so vague that things that might fall into it can have radically different effects on playstyle.
Anything thay lumps ZSS backflip and Kragg Armor Ball into the same category is probably not a terribly useful category. Feels like just having 1 2 3 and 5 would be more descriptive.
At most, the "movement special" may be something that contributes to a larger point: just to spitball, maybe something about how spaces play neutral. Like, some character's "movement special" is what unlocks or contributes the ability to shmoove the way you expect a spacie to, while others have it built into their character's properties, and whether or not they have a specific move for it doesn't matter.
@@TheAmberFang Fox/falco shmovement has nothing to do with their side B tho, at least outside of between stock peacocking or training mode drills, which I would argue do not contribute to the function of an archetype.
Its low endlag moves, fast fall speed, and being able to jump out of shine.
It's also important to note that the difference in Archetypes between FGC and Plat Fighters is kind of based on an Endgoal Vs Tools available.
Because the endgoal is different (Depleting a life bar Vs. Knocking someone offstage) you get "Archetypes" in Smash that have tools that dont translate/exist onto the FGC.
For every Shoto, Grappler, Rushdown, Zoner in the FGC... you can't really translate those onto Plat fighters? Take for example Donkey Kong in Smash 4. He had a Combo throw that works at both 0% and kill %.
He was the closest to a grappler you could get... but guess what? Grapplers are defined in the FGC for having Looooong life bars that let them survive punishment, and while its true that DK has the weight to survive onto pretty high %.... his poor exploitable recovery often meant that you could kill him at super early percents!!!
because of the endgoal of smash is to throw them offstage, racking damage isnt a necessity when you can just footstool him off his double jump and watch as he dies at "Full health" offstage because his Up B doesnt actually help him survive.
There's a video by Ramses Esports that goes into a much more easily defineable archetype list at w8pK8WeNvIA
He argues that names like "Spacie" are more of a way to describe tools available on a character, but that actual archetypes to define endgoals in platform fighters are much simpler based on threat range: Zoner, Trapper, Waller, Opportunist, Brawler, Zone-breaker
Good video btw. Very informative :)
Great idea! There's a ton of info out and about regarding traditional FGC archetypes, but very little about plat fighter archetypes.
Yeah, please do more of this. Been waiting for Mock Rock to do more videos like these for months
I just found you from joining rivals with the demo, but you are really becoming the top video creator when it comes to platform fighters. Having someone that analyzes the genre as a whole not just a specific game furthers the identity of the genre.
That's really what I'm trying to do, thank you
Fun fact: Ultra Fishbunjin is a Fishbun that has traveled space and got swollen out of sheer willpower and determination. Whether he was born in space or was born on earth and simply ascended is unknown. But by all accounts, he is a Space Animal 1000%
Lore-wise, I don’t know, but since his first game was literally Space Hunk, I feel like he is a space animal by almost every possible definition.
Love Slap City
2:39 I'm going to attempt a definition rn before he actually says it and see how close I am.
1. Fast reflector with a hitbox
2. Projectile for damage and stage control, but that doesn't kill or ledge trap
3. Exploitable recovery, usually with an angleable charge and low weight stat
4. High movement stats and relative fastfaller
5. High damage output via combos and fast fast/oppressive framedata
6. Mostly "brawler hiboxes" without massive disjoints
In summary: relative glass cannons, with a hybrid rushdown playstyle and shine = spacie
Great vid but personally i think a 4/5 qualification feels more fair, aka a character can lack 1 out of 5 attributes and still qualify.
I could see that. I was going with my gut on psuedo spacies, but I'm curious if 4/5 would open things up too far or not
Maybe. Also, besides spacies, what are other plat fighter exclusive architypes?
I think Ninjas (Sheik, Greninja, Ranno, etc) and Swordies (Marth, Clairen, Roy, Ike, Zhurong, etc) are two of the most common, but there's definitely a bunch. I've been trying to think of a name for the Puff/Metaknight/Wrastor/Kirby/Masked Ruby archetype for a bit now.
Maybe Shine+3? Shine feels to central to ignore.
@@Gabriel64468 thats fair, althought i think you can bend the concept of shine a little without it not counting. A teleport like shine move sounds insanely cool for instance.
The one thing I think you should consider adding is how spacies are their high vertical speed.
Something about their gravity allows them to move up and down very very quickly.
For Fox, it's simply the high gravity. For PM Lucas, it's interrupting the double jump midway.
Which does allow them to become "combo food", but it allows so much more for their moveset too.
I'm a spacie main and to me it's a bit more simple:
- good advantage (especially combos)
- bad disadvantage (trash recovery, combo food, lighter weight usually)
- fast faller
And yes, that makes Falcon a spacie.
I have a problem with your "shine has to start combos" criteria because it would mean that e.g. Falco in Ultimate is not a spacie, haha.
9:21
HDR MENTIONED‼️‼️‼️
While watching this, I was thinking about Fight of Animals: Arena. This game is barely a platform fighter, yet it comes quite close to having space animals. No-one in this game is particularly easy to combo, but everyone has a very bad and exploitable vertical recovery, and a universal burst movement option in dashing. 3 characters in this game have standard projectiles, and out of those 3, magic squirrel is the one with the most explicitly combo-focussed special: his down special. This move cannot exactly be jump cancelled, but can be cancelled into dash which can be interrupted with a jump quite quickly.
Really solid video! although I think that when figuring out what makes a spacie a spacie ultimately, the main focus should be on the ideas behind their playstyle, not just the specific tools they have. like how a "shoto" is generally defined by having a well rounded playstype with no major strengths or weaknesses...which THEN manifests by good normals, a straightforward gamepla, well rounded specials, and a fireball.
Spacies all seem to be about controlling the tempo of a match by having aggresive, freedom offense and pressure...in exchange for exploitability when the tables turn on them. basically a subset of glass canons in a way!
You can hear a spacie, "blip, blip"
not acknowledging stardust valkyries, a game entirely dedicated to spacies, is heartbreaking
I've never even heard of it before this comment section :'(
The weird part about stardust valkyries is that Ayrie, the character with the most obvious space animal laser and side b in that game, isn’t particularly easy to combo, and has a weirdly versatile recovery because her up b creates a platform which travels diagonally upwards, and grants her free movement from it.
I thi k El tigre counts. Because to be real. We've had sgoto without a projectile. Shaun from sf3 and nobody. Is saying his isn't a sgoto. Despite the shot archetype being so vague the only real factors are the 3 main moves. Dragon punch, tatsu, fireball.
So El tigre lacking a projectile is the least of my concerns. It's just a space animals that can't foece arpoaches with projectiles making him a sort of. Rush down, or brawler spacie. Not able to camp even if slightly so he do everything a spacie do. But forwarding every interactions himself.
Completely agree, though it’s funny your auto correct keeps doing sgoto vs shoto
@@Beastmd that entire comment orthographe is fuck up XD.
Listen, I hope you call the "Marth-archetype" a "Fencer" or we scrapping.
There's a fun parallel with shotos in traditional fighters where the definition is a bit more narrow than other archetypes, most games have a character that fits the mold, and there are also plenty of weird edge cases and characters that are sort of shoto-adjacent
Like, the general definition of the shoto archetype is:
- purely motion input-based character without charge moves (unless it's a simple input game like Fantasy Strike or Pocket Rumble)
- basic projectile
- anti-air move that can pull double duty as a reversal (usually meterless in games where characters actually get to have meterless reversals)
- forward-moving attack with some sort of evasive property
- relatively basic normals geared towards a mid-range playstyle
And you have plenty of edge cases and pseudo-shotos
- Sagat in Street Fighter is very obviously supposed to parallel Ryu in terms of his moveset - he is Ryu's original rival after all. However he's also much more specialized towards zoning - Tiger Knee is more of an anti-air than a move you use to get in while putting out a hitbox, he's able to chuck his fireballs faster and while mixing up the height on them, his normals are generally longer, etc.
- Poison in SFV specifically has a very shoto-adjacent gameplan, just replacing the projectile with a long-range strike
- King of Fighters has a *ton* of characters that feel like pseudo-shotos. Kyo sometimes has a rekka instead of a fireball. Terry's main invincible anti-air is a charge move. Joe Higashi's main anti-air usually travels more forward. Andy Bogard and Ryo Sakazaki don't have a proper meterless fireball in some games. K' has a fireball but it's as a follow-up to another move
We're all space animals if you really think about it
I feel like you can argue lucas has special based movement because of all the weird momentum stuff that happens with mag. out of all the pseudo spacies you mentioned he is by far the closest to being a spacie
You forgot to mention that Dedede is a space animal
He's an animal from space so it counts, I checked
Spacies are to Plat Fighters as Shotos are to 2D Fighters as Mishimas are to 3D fighters
Is that true? I don't know much about Tekken but I feel like Shotos are way more defining than Space Animals are.
oh Mishimas ... me being reminded that the "s" in 3D fighters is only there as an antidepressant
In unmodded vanilla _Ultimate_ but not in other _Smash_ games, fall speed and gravity values are homogenized for moves with vertical knockback, which actually makes spacies in that game generally less vulnerable to combos involving moves with vertical knockback (e.g. up aerial ladders, up tilt combos etc.) relative to the roster, and when combined with their typically low weight, nullifies most of their otherwise unusually high vulnerability to combos. They're still highly vulnerable to horizontal combos (e.g. Minecraft Steve's jab/forward tilt combo), however.
I'm slightly biased but I'd love to see a swordie breakdown. I made one myself a while back but strictly in the context of SSBU, so I'd love to see an expanded look at the archetype.
Also would really like to see a heavy archetype breakdown. Something that I think makes it super intriguing is how its defined more by character parameters rather than moveset. Bowser, DK, Charizard, Kragg, Loxodont, Plankton, Jason, these are off the top of my head and I can't think of a single moveset similarity that unifies them all. It makes the archetype pretty diverse, imo.
Loved the video, excited for more!
It's really weird to think about the fact that *lance* is the closest thing Brawlhalla has to a spacie playstyle
I've been trying to think about how to include Brawlhalla in this series, and it's honestly really difficult since that game is SO different with how items work.
@@atWisely I think grapplers would probably be the easiest - with Tezca in mind, but the recent hammer boots(?) legend might also work
I also think swordies might be good for BH since most attacks are disjoints
Why does the additional movement option have to be a special?
I feel like by just widening that to "an additional movement option that isn't available to most of the cast" we can easily include PM Lucas. DACUS might be controversial, since every character technically has it even if it doesn't do anything for most of them, but DJC has to count. There is also the tether - sure that is unavailable for onstage play, but realistically Illusion for Melee Falco and Fox are also pure recovery tools - well and for styling occassionally.
Thinking about it that way I am honestly sceptical if a secondary movement tool even is that vital to Spacies. Maybe rephrasing it entirely into "Two alternative recovery types" makes more sense.
I didn't want it to be a universal game option like DACUS because then it opens up a huge number of other edge cases, but I could definitely see tweaking this to be "alternative recovery option" down the road as more characters get added, for sure
@@atWiselyDJC should count tho
I think 9:37 must have been a mistake, because ultra fishbunjin’s recovery does not follow an arc, it just goes up with a hitbox.
good video! I feel like to me all it really takes to be a spacie is having a shine, having a high apm requirement (being the kind of character who really needs to shmove in their neutral and punish), and being a glass canon in some way (usually recovery). This definition would include the earthies from pm, and everyone included here afaik.
also interesting to think about this regarding hdr. theyve given a lotta characters shines of some kind, which ones count as spacies? dark pit? king k rool? sora a 3rd of the time? mii gunner if you give him the right down b?
PM Lucas may not have a movement special that uses special input, but he does have airdodge into zair/tether. That’s like a pseudo movement tool special. It moves him pretty far at max range, he’s intangible for airdodge portion, it’s an alternate way to grab the stage, and it has a hitbox that can be used to close distance & confirm pk freeze or link other combos.
Id still call him a pseudo space animal, but he’s realllllllly close to the real deal.
he also has dacus, and the thing where u can magnet glide after shooting a pk freeze
@@johnleecooper8520 yeah if he’s at full drift and does a freeze into b-reversed magnet glide it gives him a nice burst of distance, it’s pretty exposed but you could call it a movement special, it gives him a gimmicky but usable mixup.
Combo food is a consequence of been a fast faller that it's a much wider concept than just combo food
interesting to think of HDR dark pit as a spacie. i think the only thing keeping him out is maybe his recovery + multiple jumps, but i think it's probably exploitable enough to count. or maybe i'm just excited because i find that character fun as fuck
I don't think spacies are an archetype. Being a fastfaller is a great strength in exchange for getting tech chased which is closer to an archetype
Plat fighter devs are giving us what they THINK we want when copy-pasting Star Fox characters, but us spacie players literally only care about who has the shine
The game "Stardust Valkyries" would've been a good one to look at. Every character in that game has a shine so you'd have that aspect already controlled for as you check for the other attributes.
fishbunjin mention
For jump cancellables in ult, even though it's not nearly the same Wolf can jump cancel his shine on hit and somewhat combo out of it but very unreliably (Falco can't and for Fox I'm not sure).
Bro no you cannot, it just has enough hitstun and low endlag to get some combos off of. You don't cancel any of the lag by jumping after hitting it
@@plushpupper9329 Oh yeah you're right it's only when reflecting a projectile, tho it's still useful for combos but very specific ones.
Dark Pit from HDR is definitely a specie by this videos standards.
Tysm for making this video, no one could explain this as fun as you did
hmmm... combo food.. high mobility. . .. committal recovery.. . projectile. I can see it so clearly now. Etalus is a spacie
I loooove spacies. They are so fun, and overheated in my opinion.
Imagine if mutiverses got a spacie
That would assume that the devs and executives prioritized giving the game complexity in their characters.
Now make a spacie with a good recovery a projectile to run in behind and combo throws and you've got a character with no weakness... Oh wait no you've got zetterburn
Great video! Really helped to categorize what is normally an archetype you normally base only on "feels".
I would love to see an archetype video on platform fighters takes on grapplers, since I feel like that doesn't get defined very well besides by maybe Donkey Kong in Smash and Urdah in Rushdown Revolt.
I'm glad we're including the pseudo-spacie label, since it gives a term for character who aren't technically spacie but definitely play like Fox. I would personally add Pika/Pichu and Joker to this category.
lucas does have magnet pull as a "movement side b", but it kinda got nerfed to oblivion in 3.5 so thats honestly fair lol. ill still main that character till i die. fire vid
I disagree with the assessment that Lucas is only a psuedo-spacie. His DJC isn't mapped to the special button, but it is a distinctive movement tool
Awesome video! I especially like your emphasis on projectiles as an essential component since it takes the spacie archetype away from "pure rushdown" territory. I was recently thinking about who the "shoto" of platfighters is, and spacies, especially of the zetter/wolf variety, seem like a solid pick.
I'd be interested in hearing what you think of the floatier archetypes like multi-jump characters (Jigglypuff, Meta Knight, Wrastor) or float characters (Peach, Pomme. PM Ganon). I'd also ask about "free flight" characters if Elliana wasn't literally the only example I could think of.
In the vein of Elliana PM Mew Two float probably counts. But theres so few examples that I hesitate to call it an archetype.
Float Characters maybe is more of an archetype and Elli and M2 could be called variations on the theme.
I've always proposed a "cheater" archetype that encompasses characters like ult rob and steve, where they're just extremely good at several different things that would normally define an archetype on their own like zoning or tods or good boxing. I think this is the only way to reconcile smash's general disregard for the concept of archetypes and generally anticompetitive design
Rushdown Revolt mentioned 😭😭😭😭😭 my GOAT
I would love a dive into what exactly it means to be a 'setplay character'
The examples of characters that fit into this group always seem wildly different from each other to me
Setplay is a term for characters who set up some kind of element that needs to be played around. Often, this is some kind of projectile, but it could also be a movement tool or threatening trap.
A really good example of this would be Bridget from Guilty Gear, who sets up yoyos that can be used for tricky movement, mixups, and as an automatic followup.
For examples from Platform Fighters, think characters like Snake with his grenades and mine, or Orcane with his puddles.
It’s out!
really excellent stuff. I’m excited to see future entries in this series when the archetypes start getting weirder!
I think melee Yoshi kinda fits as a pseudo space animal
I love that you chose the pseudo space animal instead of the INTENDED space animal to showcase from Rushdown Revolt, great video :D
rushdown revolt mentioned. What the fuck is fast falling EX up special from frames 5 through 15!
NASB 2 MENTIONED LETS GOOOOOOO
koalas are very similar in playstyle to space animals but aren't true spacies because they don't have the koalafications
I still remember a poll on here that was voting on the best recovery in Melee and I had people arguing with me that Fox has a better recovery than Peach or Puff and I felt like I was going insane.
If it's any consolation, they might not have played against many decent floaties 😫
Where do you think mii brawler fits in? Brawler has fastfaller parameters and shares many normals with Fox, as well as with Mario, or has visibly similar moves. Shot Put is a projectile option; Burning Drop Kick, Suplex, and of course Feint Jump all constitute movement specials. I think what keeps him on the fringes of the archetype are his (dependent on moveset) highly versatile recovery and his lack of JC special - but in Ultimate, Fox can't JC shine either!
This is an amazing video overall and honestly I hope to see it at a million+ views some day. I love all of your content and hope to see Rivals 2 thrive for years to come. Thank you for your contributions to keeping the community thriving!
Is La Reina (at least as she exists on workshop) a space animal? Hear me out.
Projectile: Chair.
Movement special: Side-b and down-b (with chair)
Combo food: Heavyweight
The last two points are a bit more contentious, though.
Exploitable Recovery is a bit hard to say. Hitting her opponent or using her chair can turn her mediocre side-b>wall jump>up-b into a much more free form and interesting recovery, but those aren't consistent options. She needs to either have her chair positioned for it or pull it out mid-air in order to use it for recovery, the former of which requires setup and can be denied by the opponent hitting the chair and the latter of which is slow and telegraphed, and of course she can't use her opponent to get her resources back and recover unless her opponent slips up and gets grabbed.
The shine is probably where she's most likely disqualified, but her chair can very much fill that role in some ways when drawn back with neutral special. Its hitbox comes out fairly early, and if your opponent is on top of it, it is a nasty combo starter.
I think La Reina at least qualifies as a pseudo-spacie.
I love this video! Hopefully itll help lit to rest the discussion on what a space animal is.
....HOWEVER!
I would like to bring up PM Lucas one more time, and heres why: in movement tool, you say thay it could be a divebomb, illusion, or... A burst to kill move
While *technically* not character specific, Lucas has the farthest reaching DACUS in the game and he zooms across the stage!
If that isnt a burst to kill movement tool, i dont know what is!
I love trick play characters like orcane in rivals two
Personally, I think that with 8 out of 11 actual Spacies (9 if you count 64 Fox), not being considered "Spacies" under this definition its bound to lead to unnecessary confusion. I think a term like "Foxlike" would be better.
On the surface it has a similar issue in that 3/5 Foxes wouldnt be "Foxlikes" but Foxlike isnt an existing term used to describe characters so there wouldnt be a situation where two phrases are used to mean two different things. I know that not all Spacies are inhernetly based on Fox, I dunno how valid it is but some people say Zetterburn is more of like Wolf or a Spacie Combo than just a Fox clone, but since the idea of Melee Fox is the root of inspiration for most of these characters I still think it makes more sense. Spacie has gotten so much traction it's probably too late but thats just my opinion.
2:58 archetypical would be best, I believe
What would you consider Powdered Toast Man in Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl as then. He’s got shine, projectiles, is combo food, and has an exploitable recovery. If you want to get nitty and gritty you can say dash attack cancels can be some sort of special movement. Would you consider him Hybrid cuz he’s a heavy hitter, or would you consider him pseudo-spacy dash attack cancels don’t have the right connotation to be a movement special.
Is Melee Yoshi a space animal? (double-jump is his shine, also kinda parrying I guess)
By these rules HDR Sora and Mii Gunner are spacies :)
2:10 oh hey that's me!
It IS you!
@@atWisely why r u bald?
Furry
@@tidalwaffles i haven't had this new pfp for more then 24 hours
@@NeutralOfficial disgusting furry, not too late to change it.
I play the space animal in Rushdown Revolt Kidd is actually that character
Discussed this with a friend and gave it more thought.
I don't know all the characters you listed real well, but gonna go out on a limb and say Rushdown is a notable part of their gameplan.
Spacie probably works more scientifically as a sub-category of that archetype IMO.
If you're Rushdown but lack a Shine and a projectile, chances are you're likely not be a Spacie.
If you have all 5 (or at least 4) of those attributes, but are mainly a Keep-Away character like Sephiroth, it wouldn't sit right to call you a Spacie.
What do you think?
I like the young link playstyle in ultimate, not sure what I'd classify it as, maybe rush down zoner? Would love to know more about that and if something fitting that niche might be coming from Rivals 1.
I can’t believe loxodont is a psuedo spacie
god i would love to see a video on trap/bait characters!!
Space animal: Reflector/type of "shine", blaster, charge recovery that sends you in a direction, fireball/blaster
It's like shoto = Shoryu, tatsu, fireball
Of course, variations of these moves, etc. But that's what they're known for.
Pretty much
Wrastor is not a Spacey, but the others spacies let him in the club as an honorary member.
Oh boy. A new wisely video to listen to while I slog through the work day
Thank you Robotic Matthew
i dont think fish is very close to a fox/falco/wolf in my head characteristically tho he does have wolf's shine. his recovery is ewxplotable yes but space animals recoveries to me are more about the mixups you can do with them since they have shine stall, sideb with shorten and upb angles, where fishybunjin just has dumbell stall and upb. the punish game is explosive more akin to falcon as you said in the video but fishybunjin just does not have the consistent quick movement that as a space animal has since most of his burst movement is locked behind his sideb.
great video btw!!!
Is Loxodont a Space Animal?
Exploitable recovery, movement option, projectile, shine (down b makes u jump so it technically jumps with it)
The important part of the Jump Cancel isnt really the jump, its that it takes you from an animation to a fully actionable state. Loxo def is not a spacie.
Basically a fox clone
I see Garfield I press like
But, this characters still a shotos XD shotos are characters intermedium with decent normals, decent neutral with at least 1 movement special, projectile and a decent anti air, they are shotos in what a a platform fighter are
The real space animals were the furries that 3-stocked us all along ❤❤❤
amazing video, wisely!
its very interesting to see different takes on the same core principles like garfield's sugar meter and all of fish bunjin 🔥
High quality platfighter videos
CommanderVideo was snubbed... 😢
But like actually, CV from Fraymakers feels like an evolution of the spacie archetype since he gets a rainbow trail when hitting the opponent, allowing him to jump cancel *any* of his specials one time, needing to hit his opponent again to get it back. He even has his "shine" and movement tool special on the same move, side special. All of this works together to make his combo game all about using movement to keep your advantage and strong combo game, while also having the archetypical extremely exploitable recovery
Honestly, Fraymakers is one of the games I know the least and no one suggested CV so I didn't think to try him :'( I'll check him out!
People used to joke about this all the time, though if we were to undergo this definition... would Ridley technically be a Spacie?
Aside from LITERALLY being a animal (or monster) from space, he does possess some of traits presented here.
- Projectile? He's got one.
- Combo Food? Check.
- Committal Recovery? Despite being able to fly, he's pretty exposed
These next two are big maybes, depending how much you're whiling to leave open:
- Shine? Ehhhhh.... the closest equivalent is his Nair. A move that shares some of Shine's combo functions, gimping ability and heavy reliance on since it's arguably his best move. (Not sure on this one)
- Movement Tool Special? Again, massive stretch. He is a fast runner with a Side-B and Up-B (and I guess Dair if you really wanna count it) that *can* be used as a burst options... but they're often very commit and not very... burst option-y. (I'd personally say, no)
Depending who you ask, you could make a case for Ridley as a Pseudo-Spacie. One that just takes plenty of DNA from the Heavyweight and Swordie archetypes.
Though if you're willing to be that generous, you could overlap a say... Glasscannon Shoto as a Spacie... (Which actually doesn't sound too far off in a way. lol)
What do you think?
I don't think that Ridley's Nair functions similarly enough to Shine to consider him a spacie
@@thatonegaminglatias4345 Fair.
Funny enough, Sephiroth's Nair does resemble Shine more.
So outside of Exposed Recovery, would he be a Spacie. Lol
@@MrGameguyC Sephiroth's Nair is relatively slow, but even giving him that, his massive end lag gives him a significantly worse combo game than most spacies. Outside of that, however, Sephiroth's Up-special, counter, and projectiles comfortably put him in the running for the title of Space Animal (Or at least grant him honorary status)
@@thatonegaminglatias4345Will say that a keep-away design doesn't really fit the spirit of a Spacie in the eyes of many.
I go into more detail in another comment.
@@MrGameguyC Exactly. Sephiroth has many of the tools of a spacie, but his gameplay ends up entirely different (due to his normals) - therefore he is not a space animal. Comparing Sephiroth and Fox seems to be like comparing Guile and Ryu, both of whom have rather similar tools (Invincible Anti-Air, Fireball) but play and control very differently
great video! my main note would be that the movement special feels like an unnecessary criterion. Additionally I would argue that fox and Falco's side b is almost useless as a movement tool and instead is almost purely a recovery tool, and as such could be argued to not fit this criterion themselves. also frankly I would say that any criterion that excludes pm Lucas is probably one that is overly limiting. he feels more like a spacie than damn near anyone else.
one additional criterion that I think might be reasonable to include is "good frame data." I feel like having fast moves to be able to throw out in neutral is important to a character feeling like a spacie
waiting for the hdr dark pit mention
WAIT IT JUST SHOWED UP LETS GO HDR DARK PIT
RUSHDOWN REVOLT MENTIONED RAAAHHHHH
I love fox mccloud!!!!!!
We are all spacies if you try hard enough
Kidd from RR isn’t a shoto? Also in stardust Valkyrie every character had a shine lol
He's a spacie, not a shoto? And I've never heard of that one before
@@atWisely yes sorry spacie! I was hoping you were gonna go into his movrset more at the end haha. And yes stardust valk is being made by a single developer atm, I’m not sure how many of the characters would be considered a spacie though.
Arch-typical
Would smash ultimate pichu be a pseudo space animal?
He definitely isn't a real one due to lacking a shine but he falls fast, has a projectile, has many movement tools and has an exploitable recovery as his up-b has no hitbox coupled with his ledge grab box and hurt box while grabbing the ledge making him VERY easy to two frame
Perhaps he'd be too hard to combo due to his small stature
Loving all the content you've been putting out recently! Can't wait to see the future vids once the game gets more characters and develops a deeper meta.
your beard is beautiful dude, it shocks me every time lmao
I wish I could understand your words, but your beard is just so amazing…I lose track of everything else!
Na. I am not into platform fighters anymore but your content is fire!
Super eye path wolf was right