In regards the scene where the Doctor asks Polly to make some Coffee. I always viewed it as he's asking her to help stall for time while he thinks of something as they're on a tight deadline to find the source of the virus. Plus she was the only other person in the room with him at the time. So it never felt like it was sexist. I really like the Doctor and Polly's interactions in this story. So wholesome! 😊
I long had a theory that Polly enjoys making coffee and tea, and the Doctor knows it. She generally likes to be helpful. It's a distraction from the adventures, giving her a sense of normality and comfort.
This also has one of my favorite Second Doctor speeches. “There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought.”
This is probably my favourite of the animations. It's just so good. Perfect balance of sleek art-style with faithful recreation, and blend with surviving episodes.
That shot of the reflection of the light off the moon's surface against the Cyberman's helmet at the cliffhanger to Episode 3 is such a wonderful addition. Makes the ending more cinematic. God bless Planet 55, the only animation company that did Michael Craze's likeness pretty well. It is a shame that we'll never see their version of Power of the Daleks, outside of clips on their Stand By video for their TH-cam streams.
This is one of my favourites of the animations, I just love the moonbase, the level of detail they put into the cybermen and the inside of their ship is just amazing. The art style is just on point. Its a cracking story but the animation is chefs kiss.
I’ve been really enjoying your review series of these animations - you’ve got a really nice mix of going over the technical merits as well as getting into the story and performances. I’ve seen all of these before, but these reviews offer plenty to look out for in a rewatch. Looking forward to following along with you through the rest of the collection!
Watching you discuss the nuance of this animation made me realise exactly how you nailed both the fourth and sixth Doctors mannerisms in your own animation projects
I wish planet 55 was kept around for years, as much as I like the other studio animations. They definitely knocked it out of the park the first time around. Something about their work grabbed my attention and their work is what got me into classic doctor who. I’d love for them to return. Maybe an anime-sytled doctor who spin off.
The hole being sealed works better if you assume that the jackets and tea-trays (and probably other items) on the Moonbase were designed to be used as emergency plugs/patches, since one of the big dangers on a Moonbase is the vacuum outside.
Other than being part two in a trilogy of 'Black character gets a tough ending', I think The Moonbase is probably the beginning of the Troughton era proper. It feels like a bit of a soft reboot. Which is more than some of the Cyberman performers can say. I enjoyed the animation, which feels like it complements the existing footage; although I am forever comparing the whole thing with the version in my head from the novelisation.
This is my favourite episode of the whole show, modern or classic. Doctor getting very Doctor-y, Cybermen at their best, and a beautiful animation. It's a the perfect quintessential base-under-siege story ❤️
2:18 yes josh, I agree. I think the"It'll be twins" line from Remembrance is an example of this time sense that you mention rather than the Doctor already knowing the outcome from personal experience
OK, I'll bite with a few comments. I watched the original when it aired in the 60's. As a little kid it scared the hell out of me. But I religiously watched every episode. It probably made a bigger impression on my malleable little mind than just about anything else I saw. I was so pleased when the Missing Episode Animation dropped. I had it on order as soon as I heard of it. Generally the animation does a good job. Nothing is going to recreate watching the real thing on a black and white TV as a terrified 7 year old, episode by episode, one week at a time. The medium alone helps create an atmosphere that we don't get with modern technology. The moment Polly sees the feet of the Cyberman in the sick bay is as good a shock moment as any. What is impossible to recreate is the sheer novelty of watching the story. Everyone now knows it is a Cybermen story. Not back when it aired. Which is why the slow reveal is so effective. You only get that once. Ever. The music is a real star. Years later, the composer, Tristram Carey, was working at Adelaide University, where I studied and worked. A lovely man. Very innovative and influential in the world of early experimental and electronic music. The great shame of the modern era Dr Who is how they mostly forgot the nature of the Cybermen, and the Gothic horror they embodied. The Troughton era followup stories with the Cybermen, Wheel in Space, Tomb of the Cybermen, got it right. Even if the Wheel in Space is largely the same plot. The Invasion sort of lost some of the creepy horror - although skulking about in the sewers under London was close.
Josh this is scary, last week I watched Tenth Planet for the first time and you upload that video the next day. Just last night I watched The Moonbase for the first time and today you upload this. Are you inside my head?
Again those original cybermen with plastic replacing their body parts is just SO creepy in comparison with the clunky modern ones, when that goo comes out of their chests or mouths it is just so terrifying in many ways They really need to come back big time
A real shame The Moonbase was the final story animated by Planet 55. Imagine what could’ve been if they were told to do an animation for The Web of Fear, The Crusades and The Abominable Snowmen?
Strange coincidence, I watched that for the first time last night. I only meant to watch one episode, ended up binging the lot! Great review, very insightful.
This is one I've had a old beaten up copy of the Target novel since a little kid, and it didn't wow me. I thought it was slow and boring, as a dumb little kid, but re-reading (and getting to see the animation) The story really gets fleshed out and the extra Creepy Vibes really help. Now its a great read and watch!
Love The Moonbase. It's one of my two favorite animations (the other being The Macra Terror), and one of my two favorite cybermen stories (the other being The Invasion). This is hands down my favorite Troughton performance in the role, he is just magic here, this story is one of the reasons why he is my second-favorite doctor. I really wish we could have gotten that Planet 55 animation of UWM.
I really don't see why Planet 55 didn't get contracted to do all the animations. I mean, we don't see audio dramas being farmed out to competitive tenders from different companies. Do we? I saw some clips from The Moonbase before I saw any other Doctor Who animations (excepting The Invasion) and that calibrated all my expectations.
The Moonbase is one of my personal favorites. I absolutely agree that this is one of Patrick Troughton’s best performances as The Doctor. It’s really the first time in his era that they’ve nailed the character of the newly regenerated Doctor.
Why can’t they all be this good? This and Tenth Planet were both done so well. The lost Tenth Planet 4 still is intriguing because it’s such an important episode but with these animations, I think I can honestly say the Moonbase missing episodes are the episodes in the least interested in seeing return.
I agree about rotoscoping which adds a smoothness and a real degree of realism to animations and the Moonbase animation art direction is gorgeous . Polly using nail polish remover to defeat the Cybermen is camp!
The Cybermen are, for me, far better villains than Daleks. Cybermen plan things in advance - often years or even centuries in advance. They are methodical and cunning. They want something bad enough, then they will literally move heaven and earth to achieve their goal. That's what makes them so dangerous - patience.
makes me wonder if any test animation for planet 55's version of The Underwater Menace is out there somewhere. If it got far enough into production for bonus features to be made, they had to have started animating or at least have drawn character designs. That would make a great bonus feature for the season 4 bluray if any of that material still exists
Fantastic Animation for the moonbase. Shout out to Pollys coffee for saving the day. The world needs the planet 55 underwater menace, lets hope that is unearthed one day
I got the Target novelisation of this story “Doctor Who and The Cybermen” when I was about 9 years old and it was my favourite for a long, long time and this animation took me right back to my memories of the book. You specifically mention scenes in the store room and I instantly remembered the illustration in the book! I don’t know if Planet 55 just had a surviving camera script to work from, but the feel of that scene was spot on! Always a great video from you, Josh. You are one of the few calm, non-hyperbolic Fandom voices out there! x
Just gonna go ahead and drop this LIKE riiiight here. Currently in the middle of Power of the Daleks … so I’ve got a couple stories to watch before Moonbase (spoilers, sweetie).
Mostly - great! But Jamies wasn't even suspected of contracting a virus. He ended up in the sickbay because he banged his head jumping about in the low gravity.
I remember not really liking this animation in the past but since have grown to appreciate it. Be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Ice-Warriors, looking back its almost like a prototype for the animations we have now.
My god, look at those shots of Patrick. They’re uncanny. I remember thinking we’d peaked here. ……and we had. But I thought we’d stay on that that peak from here on out. Oh Lordy Jayzus look at what we get now 🤢 I loooove these weekly vids! Now to watch you over on 50% pod!
I never saw the coffee line as being sexist, I mean as the doctor said he needs to keep everyone happy and it wouldn't make much sense for him to make the coffee as time is of the essence. As for the art in this episode I love most of it but I do hate the way they have made the Tardis, It looks more like a matt smith Tardis. Plus in a wide shot it turns into the Hartnell box, I just don't know...
Interestingly, not that long after becoming a Doctor Who fan in the 1980's due to its presence here on public television with Tom Baker's era, the first Target novelization I purchased was "The Moonbase" - and I had no clue yet about regeneration, no idea who those companions were, and didn't even know how to reconcile the odd descriptions and actions of the Doctor. Yet, I loved that book and re-read it several times. It's a fantastic, moody story.
@@TediousMilkshake Tenth Planet came out earlier than it's individual release as a part of Regenerations boxset, and I accidentally mistook the dates. I'm human!
it took me 5 hours to decipher what this even meant - i'm not wearing lipstick (nothing wrong with that if I was) but it's just the colour of the lights messing with my white balance!! the saturation was too much lol
I remember getting the Moonbase DVD along with the Sly Cooper Trilogy ps3 collection on my Birthday in 2014 and I have fond memories of playing both of these on the day! 😁
Great video! Well, I haven't watched it yet. And I'm not going to watch it yet. Because I haven't watched The Moonbase yet. Because I'm saving it up... 😁
It's a great story. I do love the animation shame they now just animate the whole story even when there are surviving episodes. That's just a minor quibble 😂. Maybe Polly makes great coffee 😂
I've never understood the occasional criticism that the Cybermen are bland in this story. There's some wonderfully unsettling scenes with them. There are some really great Troughton lines too: "There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought."
I will be reviewing THE ICE WARRIORS next week. I got the dates around the wrong way. Sorry, I'm human!
Typical weaknez-a. Only stupid Earth brains like yours would have made such a mistake-a.
The Jury is still out on that LOL Great work!
In regards the scene where the Doctor asks Polly to make some Coffee. I always viewed it as he's asking her to help stall for time while he thinks of something as they're on a tight deadline to find the source of the virus. Plus she was the only other person in the room with him at the time. So it never felt like it was sexist. I really like the Doctor and Polly's interactions in this story. So wholesome! 😊
Lol. It was also the 60s, a time where asking a woman to make coffee wasnt sexist. Now asking a woman to do ANYTHING can be viewed as the patriarchy.
@@WillLauzonwomp womp
Turlough will help you
I long had a theory that Polly enjoys making coffee and tea, and the Doctor knows it. She generally likes to be helpful. It's a distraction from the adventures, giving her a sense of normality and comfort.
Also, Polly was a secretary before she became a companion, so she would know how to make half-decent coffee for professional reasons.
Jamie wasn't infected with the virus, he had a head injury.
This also has one of my favorite Second Doctor speeches.
“There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought.”
GOATed
This is probably my favourite of the animations. It's just so good. Perfect balance of sleek art-style with faithful recreation, and blend with surviving episodes.
If only Planet 55 had done Fury From the Deep.
The Invasion is still my favourite but Moonbase and Tenth Planet are so close, they flow so well with the real episodes and look amazing
That shot of the reflection of the light off the moon's surface against the Cyberman's helmet at the cliffhanger to Episode 3 is such a wonderful addition. Makes the ending more cinematic.
God bless Planet 55, the only animation company that did Michael Craze's likeness pretty well. It is a shame that we'll never see their version of Power of the Daleks, outside of clips on their Stand By video for their TH-cam streams.
This is one of my favourites of the animations, I just love the moonbase, the level of detail they put into the cybermen and the inside of their ship is just amazing. The art style is just on point. Its a cracking story but the animation is chefs kiss.
We love weekly Josh!
I’ve been really enjoying your review series of these animations - you’ve got a really nice mix of going over the technical merits as well as getting into the story and performances.
I’ve seen all of these before, but these reviews offer plenty to look out for in a rewatch.
Looking forward to following along with you through the rest of the collection!
Thank you :)
I love this animation style for this one. Genuinely atmospheric and heavy to match the scare-factor.
Watching you discuss the nuance of this animation made me realise exactly how you nailed both the fourth and sixth Doctors mannerisms in your own animation projects
Another wonderful video! Thanks for doing these ones. I love the missing episodes connected ones!
I wish planet 55 was kept around for years, as much as I like the other studio animations. They definitely knocked it out of the park the first time around.
Something about their work grabbed my attention and their work is what got me into classic doctor who.
I’d love for them to return. Maybe an anime-sytled doctor who spin off.
Fantastic review, as always. Makes me want to watch it asap! Thanks Josh x
Woo yet another video from Josh. 🎉
Thanks for reminding me why I love this animation and story so much. The character designs are awesome, particularly Troughton.
The hole being sealed works better if you assume that the jackets and tea-trays (and probably other items) on the Moonbase were designed to be used as emergency plugs/patches, since one of the big dangers on a Moonbase is the vacuum outside.
The moonbase was the first Doctor Who animation I saw and it made me so excited for the ones to come. Still my personal favourite
Your videos have convinced me to buy some of these animated videos, including this one. Thanks!
Love!
Other than being part two in a trilogy of 'Black character gets a tough ending', I think The Moonbase is probably the beginning of the Troughton era proper. It feels like a bit of a soft reboot. Which is more than some of the Cyberman performers can say. I enjoyed the animation, which feels like it complements the existing footage; although I am forever comparing the whole thing with the version in my head from the novelisation.
This is my favourite episode of the whole show, modern or classic. Doctor getting very Doctor-y, Cybermen at their best, and a beautiful animation. It's a the perfect quintessential base-under-siege story ❤️
"The Cybermen have always been divas" ~ Josh Snares, 2024. Please put that on a t shirt!!
🤖🥰
2:18 yes josh, I agree. I think the"It'll be twins" line from Remembrance is an example of this time sense that you mention rather than the Doctor already knowing the outcome from personal experience
This is by far my favourite animation, and personal favourite cyberman story
One of my favorite Cybermen story ever.
OK, I'll bite with a few comments.
I watched the original when it aired in the 60's. As a little kid it scared the hell out of me. But I religiously watched every episode.
It probably made a bigger impression on my malleable little mind than just about anything else I saw. I was so pleased when the Missing Episode Animation dropped. I had it on order as soon as I heard of it.
Generally the animation does a good job. Nothing is going to recreate watching the real thing on a black and white TV as a terrified 7 year old, episode by episode, one week at a time. The medium alone helps create an atmosphere that we don't get with modern technology.
The moment Polly sees the feet of the Cyberman in the sick bay is as good a shock moment as any. What is impossible to recreate is the sheer novelty of watching the story. Everyone now knows it is a Cybermen story. Not back when it aired. Which is why the slow reveal is so effective. You only get that once. Ever.
The music is a real star. Years later, the composer, Tristram Carey, was working at Adelaide University, where I studied and worked. A lovely man. Very innovative and influential in the world of early experimental and electronic music.
The great shame of the modern era Dr Who is how they mostly forgot the nature of the Cybermen, and the Gothic horror they embodied.
The Troughton era followup stories with the Cybermen, Wheel in Space, Tomb of the Cybermen, got it right. Even if the Wheel in Space is largely the same plot.
The Invasion sort of lost some of the creepy horror - although skulking about in the sewers under London was close.
Josh this is scary, last week I watched Tenth Planet for the first time and you upload that video the next day. Just last night I watched The Moonbase for the first time and today you upload this. Are you inside my head?
I watched it last night also! Weird.
I am inside your head!
Again those original cybermen with plastic replacing their body parts is just SO creepy in comparison with the clunky modern ones, when that goo comes out of their chests or mouths it is just so terrifying in many ways
They really need to come back big time
Yeah bring back the goo!!!
A real shame The Moonbase was the final story animated by Planet 55. Imagine what could’ve been if they were told to do an animation for The Web of Fear, The Crusades and The Abominable Snowmen?
Strange coincidence, I watched that for the first time last night. I only meant to watch one episode, ended up binging the lot!
Great review, very insightful.
I think the biggest compliment I can give Planet 55 here is that I no longer regard The Moonbase as missing.
10000%
This is one I've had a old beaten up copy of the Target novel since a little kid, and it didn't wow me. I thought it was slow and boring, as a dumb little kid, but re-reading (and getting to see the animation) The story really gets fleshed out and the extra Creepy Vibes really help. Now its a great read and watch!
Wonderful animation. I hope one day we can see this story in its entirety but Planet 55 did a stellar job in filling the gaps.
I love the moonbase. Certainly one of Troughtons best.
If only Planet 55 had done the Abominable Snowman.
Love The Moonbase. It's one of my two favorite animations (the other being The Macra Terror), and one of my two favorite cybermen stories (the other being The Invasion). This is hands down my favorite Troughton performance in the role, he is just magic here, this story is one of the reasons why he is my second-favorite doctor. I really wish we could have gotten that Planet 55 animation of UWM.
I really don't see why Planet 55 didn't get contracted to do all the animations.
I mean, we don't see audio dramas being farmed out to competitive tenders from different companies. Do we?
I saw some clips from The Moonbase before I saw any other Doctor Who animations (excepting The Invasion) and that calibrated all my expectations.
So glad this was the 1st animation i ever saw
Oh my I wasn't expecting to see Sarah Michelle Gellar here, someone I had a crush on a long time ago.
shes so cool
The Moonbase is one of my personal favorites. I absolutely agree that this is one of Patrick Troughton’s best performances as The Doctor. It’s really the first time in his era that they’ve nailed the character of the newly regenerated Doctor.
Why can’t they all be this good?
This and Tenth Planet were both done so well. The lost Tenth Planet 4 still is intriguing because it’s such an important episode but with these animations, I think I can honestly say the Moonbase missing episodes are the episodes in the least interested in seeing return.
I agree about rotoscoping which adds a smoothness and a real degree of realism to animations and the Moonbase animation art direction is gorgeous . Polly using nail polish remover to defeat the Cybermen is camp!
SO CAMP! 💅
Wonderful Josh this story is very underrated. It is brilliantly creepy.
I loved the animations by planet 55, they felt so real and amazing
The Cybermen are, for me, far better villains than Daleks. Cybermen plan things in advance - often years or even centuries in advance. They are methodical and cunning. They want something bad enough, then they will literally move heaven and earth to achieve their goal. That's what makes them so dangerous - patience.
Great video mate. Our state broadcaster like to lose old tv shows. Z cars, dads army, blue peter,
This story is well awesome in billions fo ways
This is a great review. What is your take on the Ian Levine AI reconstructions?
I do wonder if the brief shadow of the cyberman was there in the actual footage
Fine review! Some of your comments about being on The Moon, make me want to go listen to The Police "Walking on the Moon" 🙃
9:36 Subtitles were made in 1909. I Looked up!
I love the battle in episode 3.
This is one of my top stories I would love to see recovered.,
makes me wonder if any test animation for planet 55's version of The Underwater Menace is out there somewhere. If it got far enough into production for bonus features to be made, they had to have started animating or at least have drawn character designs. That would make a great bonus feature for the season 4 bluray if any of that material still exists
I heard that set designs started, but didn’t get far enough to start animating
Fantastic Animation for the moonbase. Shout out to Pollys coffee for saving the day.
The world needs the planet 55 underwater menace, lets hope that is unearthed one day
Best animation hands down....i SO glad they stick to the source material. No made up scene.
Personally I never found the Cybermen hard to understand, but the Mechonoids in The Chase might as well not be speaking English for me.
omg the mechanoid voice!!! crazy
I got the Target novelisation of this story “Doctor Who and The Cybermen” when I was about 9 years old and it was my favourite for a long, long time and this animation took me right back to my memories of the book. You specifically mention scenes in the store room and I instantly remembered the illustration in the book! I don’t know if Planet 55 just had a surviving camera script to work from, but the feel of that scene was spot on!
Always a great video from you, Josh. You are one of the few calm, non-hyperbolic Fandom voices out there! x
Just gonna go ahead and drop this LIKE riiiight here. Currently in the middle of Power of the Daleks … so I’ve got a couple stories to watch before Moonbase (spoilers, sweetie).
I like The Moonbase
This is by far my favourite animation, and I always felt it's a shame they never got the chance to animate a Dalek story.
Mostly - great! But Jamies wasn't even suspected of contracting a virus. He ended up in the sickbay because he banged his head jumping about in the low gravity.
I can’t help but hope that recreations of the lost episodes could happen with ai tools.
I swear The Ice Warriors was done before this one
I hope they do the Wheel In Space serial.
7.45 Troughton becomes Pertwee - a premature regeneration? Dont worry memory is the second thing to go - I just cannot reall what the first is!
Good video, Josh. Love Planet 55's work. The best animation team (perhaps bar Cosgrove Hall's take on The Invasion). The character work shines.
Polly is legally blonde in this story
Still the best animation
I remember not really liking this animation in the past but since have grown to appreciate it.
Be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Ice-Warriors, looking back its almost like a prototype for the animations we have now.
Because of the team overspending on this animation, we wouldn't get Underwater Menace in this style
Cyberman animations are great... Especially in black and white. It makes you wonder why we have not yet had The Wheel in Space.
Scarily Good Thumbnail😁
My god, look at those shots of Patrick. They’re uncanny. I remember thinking we’d peaked here. ……and we had. But I thought we’d stay on that that peak from here on out. Oh Lordy Jayzus look at what we get now 🤢 I loooove these weekly vids! Now to watch you over on 50% pod!
Thanks for watching!!
The definitive animation, for me. Faithful to the original, filling the gaps with panache and style. If only they could all have been done like this.
There is still one more Cyberman story to be restored. If only they could get Planet 55 to do it.
I never saw the coffee line as being sexist, I mean as the doctor said he needs to keep everyone happy and it wouldn't make much sense for him to make the coffee as time is of the essence. As for the art in this episode I love most of it but I do hate the way they have made the Tardis, It looks more like a matt smith Tardis. Plus in a wide shot it turns into the Hartnell box, I just don't know...
Having read the novelisation of the moonbase, I'd love to check this one out soon
Interestingly, not that long after becoming a Doctor Who fan in the 1980's due to its presence here on public television with Tom Baker's era, the first Target novelization I purchased was "The Moonbase" - and I had no clue yet about regeneration, no idea who those companions were, and didn't even know how to reconcile the odd descriptions and actions of the Doctor. Yet, I loved that book and re-read it several times. It's a fantastic, moody story.
I often wonder if the 1st Doctor stayed on would we have Troughtons stories for season 4 or something different.
Why did you skip the ice warriors animation
Coming out next week
@ i thought you were going through these in order
@@TediousMilkshake Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey...
@@TediousMilkshake Tenth Planet came out earlier than it's individual release as a part of Regenerations boxset, and I accidentally mistook the dates. I'm human!
@@JoshSnares wait i thought u were australian
Yes i loved the animation as well Josh, i'm relieved episode 4 still exists.
Guuuurlfriend,have u got pippy on?
it took me 5 hours to decipher what this even meant - i'm not wearing lipstick (nothing wrong with that if I was) but it's just the colour of the lights messing with my white balance!! the saturation was too much lol
@@JoshSnares love ur brilliantly sculptured posts Josh ,thank you😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
Josh, do you still hail Satan? Oh, I just remembered, you don't read comments.
I remember getting the Moonbase DVD along with the Sly Cooper Trilogy ps3 collection on my Birthday in 2014 and I have fond memories of playing both of these on the day! 😁
omg what a core memory!!!
@JoshSnares Haha yes definitely 😁😄
As I said before Studio 55 was the best party to do then animation. Even though they are on Colour. The later Animation party are weak.
Great video!
Well, I haven't watched it yet. And I'm not going to watch it yet. Because I haven't watched The Moonbase yet. Because I'm saving it up... 😁
Cosgrove Hall & Planet 55's animation were far superior with all the shading & style than the poorly animated, jerky cr&p we get now.
Really? Two years after this story, NASA goes to the Moon? The BBC should sue for copyright infringement.
hahaha!
It's a great story. I do love the animation shame they now just animate the whole story even when there are surviving episodes. That's just a minor quibble 😂. Maybe Polly makes great coffee 😂
JOSH BUDDY..❤❤❤ im getting better at catching your videos right after they come out. SCORE AGAIN.
Thanks for watching!!
Even my stupid Earth brain can see this animation is great!
Ok you are definitely just skipping the Ice Warriors
Nah it’s next week!!
@@JoshSnares Huh. Why was it out of order?
I've never understood the occasional criticism that the Cybermen are bland in this story. There's some wonderfully unsettling scenes with them. There are some really great Troughton lines too: "There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought."
yeah love the Cybermen in this
Moonbase is a fairly decently done animation. It covers the story much better than the novelization (and that is saying something!)