In the 3rd Dr's era, there was going to be a story that revealed The Dr and The Master were brothers, but it never happened due to Roger Delgado's fatal accident.
I still can't get over that the Great Later Roger Delgardo died in a such common Tragic Way to this day: A Car Accident! He was Too Young, I call anyone who passed before or within their 60's (Most of my Dad's side were in their 60's with Heart Attacks *Looking Worried for my Dad* it was too Common) Delgardo was 55!!!
He used to have a brother. Not anymore. That doesn't mean that the sibling in question stopped existing. They could have just as easily reincarnated into a sister.
If the Doctor had a sister running around the universe, he wouldn't have believed he was the Last of the Timelords or felt as alone if he could just visit his family. His brother (Irving Braxatiel) had to have died in the Time War.
@@Farsight-nc1ibas much as Doctor Who canon is very flexible, what is stated in the show generally takes more authority and credibility over expanded media. Therefore the show stating something that a book suggested otherwise, a book that has been contradicted many times since the show came back, means the Doctor having siblings is more likely than not.
In the Timeless Child story arc, the Doctors memory is periodically wiped. To prevent the Doctor knowing their true origins, it appears that after a memory wipe, people would take on a parent role for him. We saw this in the Irish setting where the Doctor became a police officer. The woman in the End of Time story could also have taken on the role of the Doctor's mother - with the Doctor not knowing she was not his biological mother.
I always thought of the Master and the Doctor as brothers of choice, being so close in the Timelord Academy. The Doctor's statement that "I had a brother, not anymore" could even be a statement of disassociation rather then just loss, he had a brother then he want power-mad and wasn't his brother anymore. Whereas the Master clearly retains those fraternal feelings for the Doctor.
@Spectritus We saw the Doctor being found alone, and that should be how it stays tbh, because it’s in keeping with the Doctor’s character, with how they are alone and they adopt people or people adopt them.
@Jamezevans123 That was the Master telling the story. It's always possible that he was found with the Doctor but didn't want to reveal it. It's just a theory because of the episode's plural title.
How can you talk about the Doctor having lost their family, and not include Jodie's talking about how she carries them with her?? One of the best scenes on the topic!
So fun fact about the Doctor's brother: They're actually talking about Braxiatel (or Brax for short). Brax has played large parts in two different spinoffs: Gallifrey and Bernice Summerfield. Just last year, when Seven finally got his final story as the Doctor (via Big Finish), we find that Brax was killed off-screen during a large reality warping event. Seven finds his corpse being eaten by wildlife. Also, just last month (November 2024), an anthology for the Gallifrey spinoff has a story centred around Brax. In Brax's story, he also mentions being the Doctor's brother.
Ace is also connected to both of them. She was trained as a Time Lord, and when the Time War broke out, she was sent to Earth with her mind wiped of her knowledge, and her whereabouts erased on Romana's orders, since she was Lady President when that war started. The Time Lord that did that wipe was Braxiatel. It was so the Time Lords would not draw Earth into the Time War coming to get her.
If you're going to retcon the timeless child, and I really would love to, it would be so cool if it turns out that was actually the master and the two of them grew up together as kind of outcasts and have a brotherly like relationship. Hence the confusion. Or something like that
Apart from the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, the other aspects of the Timeless Child don’t need to be retconned, and can be thought of as separate to the Timeless Child, because really the Timeless Child concept is just the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, the other aspects don’t need that aspect to exist, like for example Tecteun didn’t adopt the Doctor because they could regenerate, that was a later discovery on Gallifrey. The Doctor being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey works, because it fits with the Doctor’s character and the canon of the show, pretty much from the start of the show the Doctor has been an adoptee coded character.
I think it's still possible that the Master is also a Timeless Child and maybe the Doctor's sibling, but not necessarily. The series 12 finale is titled "The Timeless Children" which could be referring to either the 7 "Timeless Child" incarnations of the Doctor or another being of the Doctor's species.
2:40 the Doctor's mother on Galifrey is his adopted mother. Techeun is his adopted mother. We seen her first incarnation, and her second as a man, and Techeun's final incarnation in the void. The woman in The End of Time is clearly Techeun, sometime before her final incarnation
I wouldn't exactly call Jenny a 'testtube" daughter. That implies she was the product of invitro-fertalization; which she is not. She is actually the Doctor's Clone so speak.
Actually it's more accurate for her as she's conceived and develops in vitro whereas what we call IVF only starts there and develops in vivo (in a person/life).
In the first Doctor Who Magazine they told the readers that normally Time Lords got loomed by some cloning machine each house/clan/family used to replenish their numbers. Naturally born children were deemed as something inferiour and normally were excluded from the Academy. Borusa did fix something with the child that was later to become the Doctor and implemented him into the Academy to develop his potential. So the 7 grandmothers could all stem from his "paternal side" - granny 1 being his father's mother, granny 2 & 3 being his grandmothers (the great-grandmothers to the Doctor) and 4 to 7 the great-great-grandmothers to the Doctor, all still hovering about because of the long-livity of Time Lords. No ancestors from his mother's side, because SHE got loomed on Gallifrey and sent to Earth to grow up there from child to adulthood, never suspecting NOT being human herself [just take the plotline from "The Tempest" and make the father/daughter duo exiled Time Lords]😁
I will still argue pointlessly that there's no actual proof that anything The Doctor has been told about The Timeless Child is true. There's still endless opportunity for some future writer to pull a big fat "Oh No It Isn't" and reveal that The master was lying about The child being The Doctor all along, or heavens knows what other twist..
@SpectritusI agree with you, people don’t have to like it but to say there is no proof is just wrong. As you said Mobius and the fugitive doctors is the proof.
Apart from the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, the other aspects of the Timeless Child don’t need to be retconned or revealed as a lie, because those aspects (Pre-Hartnell Doctors, the Doctor being a Time Lord pioneer, & the Doctor being an adoptee & foundling not from Gallifrey) all fit with the Doctor’s character & canon of the show.
The doctor did have a brother called Irving Braxiatel, he spent a lot of time with 7th doctor companion prof benny sommerfield. The 8th doctor did reunite with Susan, where Susan had a son called Alex, so the doctor was a great grandfather. Alex was exterminated by the daleks while aiding lucie Miller in stopping the dalek time controller. Alex was then returned to the doctor during the time war by the dalek time strategist, who found him during its journey through the multiverse. Now I mention these as the 8th doctor companions and adventures from big finish have been mentioned or referenced on screen, so I see them as cannon
I disagree with those that say that the Timeless Child means that the Woman in the End of Time can’t be the Doctor’s mum, as you say Ellie all it means is that she wasn’t their birth mum, and was either their foster or adoptive mum. But considering the 15th Doctor said that he’d recently discovered that he was adopted, I’d say that the Woman was the First Doctor’s foster mother. Mapping out the First Doctor’s early life using what’s been revealed across the show: Baby First Doctor is placed into a kids home by Tecteun, he spends about 6 years there, sometimes running away to a barn to cry. Then a Prydonian Family (Mum, Dad, Siblings, 7 Grannies) takes the Doctor in and fosters him at their home perched halfway up a mountain.
The other option would be if the Doctor was regenerated into a baby or toddler and was placed with a family, but then something happened to their parents and the kids were split up and placed in separate homes/orphanages. It would explain why the boy was crying so much - he'd had a wonderful happy life and lost it all!
@@CritterKeeper01Yeah, that’s true actually. Perhaps something happening to their parents was deliberate. Tecteun gave the Doctor to a family, to parents who were part of Division, and were tasked by Tecteun to act as his birth family, and then Tecteun had them killed so the Doctor would be alone.
And this is why the Timeless Child has messed everything up, the settings ie where the doctor lived doesn't go with the barn in the middle of no where. It makes it like the Doctor was a well looked after person a very special and important person all through her/his generations.
Why do people forget about the Big Finish stories where Susan frequently appears in , as shes had multiple stories with 8 and her own spin off series set during the Time War
I think when he said he used to have a brother but not anymore he meant more of a brother from another mother as in the master but as hes being evil now adays hes hardly a brother to him. And then they became friends again when the master became Missy who is obviously better than River Song.
But in one episode (I can't remember which one) 12 says "He was my man crush, at least I'm fairly sure he was a man back then, I was too, I think" or something like that, talking about The Master to Bill, so it could be a retcon, knowing this show it probably is, but still,
Not to mention whoever the mother of his children is. I always assumed he was a widower, given the era the show started in, but I don’t think we actually know anything about her
Sometime before the Great Time War, some Time Lords have decided to establish a colony in order to preserved Gallifreyian Civilization. Or least preserved most of the Civilization. The establishment of the Colony had reminded a great secret. Most of the Doctor's family was one of the few who were aware of the colony. Because the Doctor was not aware of the secret colony, he had thought that he had lost almost of his entire family. Oddly one of my fan theories theorized that one of the reasons why the Doctor had decided to end the Great Time War was seeing the deaths of innocents. He had seen the massacres of entire families. Due to the loss of one of his children, the Doctor had decided to end the WAR. To be very clear, no parent wants one of his children to die before he does. Oddly the reason why the Doctor's child had died because he was a member of the Military. Ironic according to my theory, the Doctor's child had sacrificed his own life to save their father's life . Due to his status as a very important leader. Oddly the nineth Doctor's partial amnesia had cause him to conclude that his family was killed by the War's end. The best way to what happen to the Doctor's family is that due to the pain of the Great Time War, the Doctor concluded that he had lost almost all of his family. When it comes to the survivors, the Doctor is partially open to this fact. When the Doctor had seen the woman who had turned out to be his mother, the Doctor was shock. About what happen to his parent' marriage. the marriage ended after the Doctor's father had regenerated. Doe the Long life span of the Time Lords, the parents of the Doctor became very good friends as well as continuing to love all of their children.
River Song confirmed that it doesn't matter what the Doctor says about his family at various points throughout canon, simply by reminding us "the Doctor lies" (the ultimate get out of jail free card)
I disagree with the doctor being an orphan. Its said that gallifreyan children are taken from their parents at the age of 8 to enter accademy training, and the untenpered schism seems to be in the countryside just like the barn.
The barn in Listen was pre-academy. This is the full scene: MAN: Why does he have to sleep out here? WOMAN: He doesn't want the others to hear him crying. MAN: Why does he have to cry all the time? (Clara hides under the bed.) WOMAN: You know why. MAN: There'll be no crying in the army. WOMAN: Hush. MAN: Don't pretend you're not awake. We're not idiots. WOMAN: Come and sleep in the house. You don't have to be alone. If you can hear me, you're very welcome in the house, with the other boys. I'll leave the door on the latch. Come in any time. MAN: He can't just run away crying all the time if he wants to join the army. WOMAN: He doesn't want to join the army. I keep telling you. MAN: Well, he's not going to the Academy, is he, that boy? He'll never make a Time Lord. The Woman telling the Doctor to come back into the house with the other boys means that he was living in a Children’s Care Home, meaning the Doctor was an orphan.
@@Jamezevans123 Ah shit, weirdly that whole exchange just slipped my mind. Thanks for reminding me 😊 Yeah I suppose it seems more likely that he is probably an orphan. I guess I just don't really like that backstory for The Doctor, it's just a part of their history that shouldn't really be revealed in my opinion.
@@skumchiken01 Yeah. I don't like the shout that Gallifrey is capitalist, or has a system that is anywhere near one of earth's systems. They should be so far beyond us, their systems should be nearly incomprehensible.
Almost mentioning the Looming from Lungbarrow! So close! 😂 Several teases of that story here and across in-show canon. The varying degrees of siblings/extended family can be taken two ways, if not more: -being the Timeless Child, they have no bio-family (siblings/ancestral) -with regeneration, any male relative can also be a female relative. I’m surprised they haven’t added neutral gendering for this, by now. I’m sure you’d agree, Ellie, that we still really do need a special episode (not necessarily an anniversary, but ASAFP!) to get Jodie and Alex (and JO?!?) together, and River maybe not recognizing her wife(s) at first, same as 12 in HoRS, where she does refer to husbands and wives, both plural. And not including the head of Greg Davies. 😂 And yes, I am aware that audios and other media have River meeting other incarnations over her 200+ year lifespan. Speaking of other media, a comic gave the Doctor two more grandchildren, once upon a time.
10:16 that boy in the Timeless children, on the cliff is the Master. Missy said the Doctor and Master were friends a long time, even back to when the Doctor was a little girl.
Was she? She said one of the things she said was a lie. Which one? The Doctor stole the president's daughter, the doctor, and the Master were friends forever. The Master knew about the Timeless children before the doctor. Granted, the Master was inside the Toymaker's tooth, and the Toymaker made a jigsaw of the doctor's life. The Toymaker created the Timeless children arc
There is a line in the Course of fenric where he's ask about where his family is and he says he doesn't know. I thought that he knows that the time war has started
My personal belief is that the Timeless child actually came to be, or at least became what they were, in the Time Vortex (which would explain how the 'exposure to the time vortex' origin of regeneration that was previously established and is explicitly how it worked for Melody Pond, meshes with the DNA spliceing of the Timeless child origin) Who knows, perhaps if the child was sent through the vortex and simply fell through the that portal, maybe their mother was a human!
With the "the doctor used to have a brother" Hes probably talking about the master, They were close friends and because of that, the doctor probably saw thr master as a brother and when the master turned evil, its like the doctor lost his brother, Like anakin and obi-wan Garmadon and wu Takka and mufasa Ect
I still don’t know why Chibnall was ever given the reigns. I had been excited when Moffat was named head writer after having received several nominations and wins for his writing, I was just so disappointed by the Chibnall era. His previous episodes were just so underwhelming. I don’t know why Gatiss wasn’t selected. The Timeless Child is just so bad in so many different ways. RTD isn’t bad, his first acts are always engaging, but I feel like he never sticks the landing. I have been enjoying the new series, I just wish newer or better talent would be brought in that understand the show. The real crime is that Ellie hasn’t been asked.
Of course, you have the right to have your own opinion. I agree that the Chibnall era wasn't great but I think what Chris Chibnall did with the Timeless Child storyline is very clever and works very well.
@ Cheers. Personally, I feel like Chibnall is just a lazy writer that destroyed a lot of potential trying too hard to be clever. I really like Sacha Dhawan as an actor and feel like he can elevate scenes despite poor material, but bringing the Master back so soon after Missy and then decimating Gallifrey was such an arrogant and cheap move for any writer, undoing a lot of the work from the 50th and before. I’m glad there’s a new series, but the creative decisions from the Chibnall era will be difficult to remedy.
@Bronzehans Sacha Dhawan was great as the Master. I don't think Gallifrey's destruction is actually problematic, script wise. But, it is of course sad in-story.
Apart from the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, which is what the Timeless Child is, the other aspects like Pre-Hartnell Doctors, the Doctor being a Time Lord pioneer, and the Doctor being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey, aren’t bad. The former two are concepts from Classic Who, and the latter builds on the characterisation of the Doctor.
I do not believe for a single second that Irving Braxiatel is really dead. That man is far too devious and crafty to let death reach him before his time. I do hope that the show acknowledges him at some point. He's referenced once in 'City of Death' in connection to the art collection bearing his name but he's never appeared outside of expanded media. For being the Doctor's big brother, that shocks me to be honest. I hope they call up Miles Richardson to play him on screen one day.
Let's not forget Patience, the Doctor's wife with whom he had kids, including Susan/Aktyor's father, seen in Cold Fusion! Or Leela and Andred/Ulysses and Penelope as his biological parents. Headcanon: Leela and Andred give birth to a child, half-human, half-time lord. The child grows up, but is whisked away by Faction Paradox and becomes known as Intrepid, and for a few regenerations fights in The War. Then when timelines are destroyed due to the 8th Doctor erasing said War from ever happening (in... what was it, The Ancestor Cell? Alien Bodies?) Intrepid sees their memories blurred and shifted, only to find themselves on a planet in the distant past, where Tecteun finds them. Brought to ancient Gallifrey, the timeless child thing happens, and when their DNA is broken down, the Eternal War against the Great Vampire happens. Rassilon becomes infatuated with power, overthrows the Pithia, becomes Lord President, and Gallifrey is cursed with sterility. Omega helps developing the Eye of Harmony, and The Other arrives from the future to help out, by creating the Looms. The Division sees it as a perfect way to get rid of some undesirable, and throw the timeless child in it, for their DNA to get sliced and blended with Gallifrey-born time lords. Eons a years later, a Gallifrean is born, and takes on the title The Doctor. Trraveling in time, like their father Ulysses did, they eventually are recruited again by the Division (Fugitive Doctor era), and now having memory erasing techniques, is eventually released from service. Now in their "Brain of Morbius Doctors" era, they settle down on Gallifrey with Patience. However, as the Doctor changes faces, they realised they have become the one being that would -according to history- help save Gallifrey in the distant past: The Other. Taking a TT Capsule, The Other travels back in time to fulfil their destiny by creating the Looms, so that sterile Gallifrean can create new timelords. Unbeknowst to them (initially), Aktyor their granddaughter, came with them in the past. The flashbacks of Lungbarrow happen, and after the "death" of Omega, Rassilon becomes more and more in need of The Other's help, despite him wanting to return to his own time. Threatening their granddaughter, The Other only sees one solution to save their family for good: to disappear entirely, and as such, throws themselves into a Loom, conscious this time. Because of them being awake and conscious and not a dead body like its usually the case, The Other's mind and memories are somewhat kept when the next reincarnation is loomed, untold eons later. Assuming the name Doctor again, the "original" escapes their own time with a stolen TTC, to attend the funerals of Rassilon, only to be treated by Susan/Aktyor, who recognises her grandfather's brain.
It was never stated that the Doctor was not born on Gallifrey, just that the child was found at that portal. Until it is stated, it's within reason that Gallifrey is still their planet of origin. I have a plan that makes it work and keeps the Timeless Child intact.
It's quite obvious that The Doctor wasn't born on Gallifrey. The Doctor is the only known being capable of regenerating naturally. And the Doctor being found under the portal clearly implies the Doctor came through it.
The Doctor doesn’t need to be from Gallifrey in order to be a Gallifreyan. When they were adopted by Tecteun, they adopted a Gallifreyan identity, which grew the more time passed, especially when Tecteun brought them to Gallifrey and raised them.
@@CritterKeeper01 THANK YOU👏 I’m an adoptee myself, and a stigma that we face is non-adoptees calling our birth parents/family our “real parents/family” suggesting that our adoptive parents/family aren’t because we aren’t biologically related. When people say that the Doctor isn’t a real Gallifreyan because they aren’t from Gallifrey, it’s the exact same stigma. This idea you have to be from somewhere/someone, in order for an identity to be legitimate, that if you were raised in that country or family, but aren’t native to them, that means you’re not a legitimate member, which is a load of bollocks.
The Eighth Doctor briefly remembered his father and mentioned it to Grace in the TV Movie. And since you dismissed the idea that The Doctor is half-human, it should be remembered Ashildr told the Twelfth Doctor her theory about him and point-blank asked him if it were true he’s half-human. To which he answered “does it even matter?” with much emotional pain… heavily inferring it was true. And while the suggestion is not popular amongst a vocal minority in fandom, it’s certainly a lot more popular than The Timeless Child nonsense.
Thank you, oh dear Rassilon thank you for explaining the Doctor having children. So many poeple have been taking what was said in the Sutec return episode seriously. The Doctor has had children before the line in the episode wasn't a real thing and was written into the script by mistake
The title is things we do know, but words that indicate uncertainty are used… Hmmm. As to #1, nothing requires that the Doctor wasn’t from a wealthy family or one of low status… It could be the farm was not an orphanage, but a boarding school or a reform school.
i can see this video covers only the new doctor who series. because in the old series (the episodes the survived) you can meet some of the doctor's immediate family, such as his granddaughter. hell it even states on the doctor who Wikipedia what happens to her. edit: yea, the doctor's grand daughter is named susan foreman, she was a Gallifreyan translator. and its speculated that she was dead after the genocide of the time lords.
@9nikola the part i watched stayed that it was "unclear of the doctor had children and grandchildren" but maybe I misheard. It was playing in my background while I was playing some games.
@@dantetheocelot why did you comment criticising what the video covers when you didn't watch it though? You didn't even watch the whole video? You just had a part of it on in the background and decided to pretend the rest didn't contain what you wanted it to?
Except, We already have the origin story of the Doctor. (series 1 & 2 of new WHo; the Master series 3 & 4 and the TARDIS series 5-7A and how the Doctor become the Doctor in series 7B (extended to include -9
The Doctor came from the Golden dimension just beyond the void. Wonder is the Doctor's family has something in common with the Pantheon of Gods from the void?
*WHY do you guys keep missing this?* The 15th Doctor flat out says that he hasn't met Susan's parent (the Doctor's Time Lord or Time Lady son or daughter) yet. In other words, he is *SURE* that he doesn't have children who could have been Susan's parent. This leaves us only with 2 options: 1) The Doctor has had children who died before they were old enough to have children of their own; 2) The Doctor *HASN'T HAD CHILDREN YET.* Note 1: Susan's mother could very well be Jenny, but the Doctor is not counting her because he thinks she's dead: she's not. Note 2: The Doctor might have received info about this person's name, looks and other info from Susan, but given the nature of Time Lords and regenerations, if that was the case, he couldn't be sure that he hadn't met them yet. Note 3: His conversation with the doctor in series 1 mentions how sad he is at having lost all of Gallifrey, not a specific person.
The 15th Doctor* might also just not know about Jenny being alive, so she could be Susan's mother for all we know. Or some other child of his might be presumed dead prior to having kids. He isn't sure of anything. All we really know is that he doesn't know who Susan's parents were.
You are forgetting The Doctor is a time traveler. Any child of his born after 2024 by an earlier regeneration would fit the definition of "not yet". For example if William Hartnell's Doctor had children in Earth year 51000 they would "not yet" be born as of Earth year 2024.
@@9nikola That's *QUITE LITERALLY* what I said. Jenny could be Susan's mother. He is convinced that Jenny is dead, so he doesn't count her. Other than that... sure, theoretically there could have been *ANOTHER* long dead son or daughter *THAT HE NEVER SPOKE ABOUT IN THOUSANDS OF YEARS, NOT EVEN ALL THOSE TIMES WHEN HE WAS MOURNING THE LOSS OF HIS WHOLE RACE.* But that would be a ridiculous asspull, wouldn't it? No. Either it's Jenny, *AS I SAID,* or it's a child the Doctor hasn't had, yet.
@@Tim.Stotelmeyer I'm not forgetting that the Doctor is a time traveler, and that's not how it works. The Doctor *ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS* talks about this kind of things from the point of view of *HIS* personal timeline. He doesn't care about linear time. Things that have happened to him before happened *TO HIM* before (even both times he went to the end of time). And things that *HAVEN'T HAPPENED TO HIM YET* ...well... they haven't happened *TO HIM.* They might have happened or not for the universe around him, but not *TO HIM.*
Did they ever address how the timeless child storyline works when in The Name of The Doctor, it takes The Time Lords through a crack in the universe give him a whole other round of regenerations?
@ That’s the direction I was seeing too, but then I am trying to guess what then did he actually gain when the Time Lords gave him that regeneration power. Like, what extra did it give The Doctor?
@@SheSaidWhat1101 It did supercharge his regeneration to the point that he had the energy to destroy a Dalek ship. If a normal Time Lord could do that if given an new set of regenerations then the Time Lords would have weaponized it during the time war.
When it comes to Susan, bear in mind that she's a timelord, so if/ when he sees her again, she could be played by anyone, including a male and now be his grandson
Just because the woman in the barn says "join the other boys" and not "brothers" it doesn't mean she isn't referring to biological brothers. Quite often my mum would refer to my brothers and I as "the boys".
At the beginning of The Legend of Ruby Sunday, The Doctor tells Kate that he had a Granddaughter but when she says that he must have kids then he says "no, not quite, not yet" and she says "the life of a Time Lord?" I took this to mean that RTD is now implying that The Doctor hasn't had any children yet, including Susan's mother or father. This doesn't fit in with many of the other things you have quoted so I am kind of hoping it gets quietly dropped.
Pet theory that may never have any follow up or use in the series: given their references to 'the Academy,' I strongly suspect that Bel and Vinder were extra-dimensional, other-universe Gallifreyans. I believe Chibnall was setting them up to be parents of the Timeless Child. I also suspect that they would have been revealed to be other-universe versions of the Master and the Doctor.
Interesting, but I think you misunderstood "other universe". It's not a parallel world. It's just another place in Space. Like there are several galaxies, there are several universes (it's actually possible irl as well).
Kids and grandkids would be biological family, even if siblings, parents, etc., refer to adopted family -- unless, of course, he also adopted the kids and grandkids! But also, how reliable is anything he said? The Doctor lies!
Ahhh the Timeless Child. The biggest hash ever in the history of the show. Instead of being unique the Doctor became a continuation of a continuation of a continuation.....
Number 10. I don't think that that proved that the Doctor was an orphan. You even then talk about the Doctor's mother in number 8. I take the barn as being part of a boarding school rather than an orphanage. Therefore he may be from a rich family. The conversation between him and the Master in the Sound of Drums suggests both Time Lord families have a lot of land.
I put forth that The Doctor is of the same people as the Toymaker and the other "Celestials", which will probably get a less problematic name. Time will tell.
Mine is the DEFECTIVE GOD theory. It goes as such: . The doctor's regeneration ability was a universal game changer in the shows dimension but compared to entities like the solitract, toymaker, maestro etc, it's actually not much. So my theory is that the doctor originates from an extra dimensional immortal race that can change their form aka regenerate (and heal) at will. . Upon discovering their child can't change form and is 'disabled' the parents exile them away to a universe with similarly limited people - us. Which could've been either an act of love or cruelty depending on what the parents society is like. . It wasn't until the doctor 'died' the first time that it's revealed they actually do have the ability to change form just not at will. Maybe the bio parents knew and maybe they didn't..either way it's still inferior to their ability to freely heal and change from. . So that's my theory. The doctor is a defective god from another dimension. Perhaps the doctor's humility, compassion and mercy stems from the subconscious were the long forgotten earliest memories of being ostracized and rejected remain a fundamental part of the doctor's essence/soul/what-have-you.
"Its complicated”, as somebody once said. In "The Legend of Ruby Sunday” Fifteen says his own children haven't been born yet, so I guess that in some future incarnation of The Doctor , they become a parent, later to see their granddaughter travel back in time to meet the First Doctor, who adopts her, so to speak. Anything is possible in a Timey Timey jumble, and explains how easily detached Susan has been, in the six decades since. She has been fostered out after all.
I'm still hoping that a show runner comes along and makes the timeless child a lie. This over the top doctor is getting worse every iteration. I'd love it if a show runner actually come and says everything after capaldi is a fabrication and the doctor resets.
I think we can all agree that Doctor who is best off by ignoring the timeless child storyline n just say it’s a lie as it just ruins n shits on all the history that’s been established already
@timidwolf yes, he was woven. I just meant he was born a Timelord, not an ordinary Gallifreyan. And technically a reincarnation of the Other, or at least some of him!
He didn’t grow up poor. In Hell Bent Me (Ashilda) states “ Tell me Doctor. Your a… time lord. A high born Gallifrean. Why is it you spend so much time on earth? I think he stayed in the barn as part of his Time Lord education. I think that was some sort of crappy Time Lord elementary school dorm. Lol. They are such sticklers for status I just assumed they had to “earn” their privilege amongst the privileged.
@@alphyishere There are different types of universes, prime which are what parallel universes branch off from. Like for example our universe is a prime, and Pete’s universe as seen in Series 2/4 is parallel because it branched off from our universe. So if the Doctor did come through the wormhole they were found under, from another universe, then it’s likely that they came from a prime universe. But no, the Who Universe is the universe that the Doctor was transported into if they did come through the wormhole. I say if because the Doctor’s native planet might’ve been one of the early inhabitants planets in our universe.
All of Whovians know continuity is not one of the show's strong suits. It's pretty much laughable at this poimt. Where some ofus disagree is the whole "timeless child" stuff. I think it's nonsense imo, and creates more contradictions and inconsistencies than anything before it, in regards to this subject. But, to each their own I suppose.
So 100% of this totally ignores the rubbish "Timeless child" bullshit right (oh, sorry 90%). Especially "the Drs mother"... You just going to ignore that? "a spanner thrown in the works."... You know who culture could do some good by just openly condemning that BS. You going mention that the Dr is half human too right? Who is disregarding that... Certainly im not compared to timeless child bs. Having the timeless child mess it's self over 60 years worth of TV show does cheapen your brand too, you do see that right. Just keep calling them out on it, and it will soon be dropped and forgotten (as much and as quickly as "half human").
It’s not BS though, I understand disliking the actual Timeless Child concept, the Doctor being the origin of regeneration. But the Doctor having incarnations before Hartnell that exist all the way back to before the founding of Time Lord society and being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey all fits with the Doctor’s character and the canon of the show. The concept of Pre-Hartnell Doctors has existed since the first on-screen regeneration, The Power of the Daleks, explicitly shown in The Brain of Morbius, and expanded upon in the 7th Doctor’s era. Hartnell’s Doctor is not defined by the fact that he’s the very first incarnation or not, it’s the decisions and actions he made like running away from Gallifrey, coming to Earth, and going on the journey we’ve followed him on since An Unearthly Child that defines him, Pre-Hartnell Doctors doesn’t affect any of that. The idea of the Doctor being a pioneer among his own people has existed since The Daleks (1963) and expanded upon in the 7th Doctor’s era. The Doctor being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey fits with the Doctor’s character because they’ve always been an adoptee coded character. As an adoptee myself I’m able to see that, and so is RTD as well, and he’s not even an adoptee. He said this in an interview: “That is the journey and hopefully for seasons to come. It has put the Doctor in a very interesting position and what I love about this notion of him being a foundling, an orphan, is that it fits with the image of the Doctor anyways. He's always been alone, travelled on his own, needs a companion, finds new ones to take with him, then it breaks his heart when they leave. So, that's a man always searching for a family, always creating a found family, which is wonderful, I love that. And so it fit’s for him to be adopted, to have been lost in the universe abandoned as a child. It's one of those great bits of lore that actually resonates with what the character always was, I'm overjoyed with it."
And if you listened to Ellie, she backtracks on saying that the Timeless Child throws a spanner in the works that the Woman in The End of Time is the Doctor’s mum, because all it means is that the Woman is not the Doctor’s birth mum, and is either their adoptive or foster mum. And that doesn’t devalue anything, because adoptive and foster mums are real mums, just as real and valid as birth mums are.
@@Jamezevans123 that's rubbish. It is not stated the faces in Morbius are the Doctor, nor does the Other validate the Timeless Child. The Other died when he through himself into a loom on Gallifrey, the Doctor certainly received some of his genetic makeup and/or memories but he has nothing to do with the Timeless Child.
@Jamezevans123 there are interesting ideas in the timeless child... But it was done is such a hackneyed and sloppy manner, all we are left with is confusion, and anger at the show disrespectings it's 60 years history. You even admit that it is the story's we have watched that make him/her/them important... We saw the doctor in unearthly child... We know that his daughter invented the name tardis, and that it got STUCK as the blue box starting with Hartnell... Then the stupid timeless child arc tries to tell us that Ruth doctor (who manages to out doctor poor Jodie doctor in her limited scenes...) Has been running around the universe, in a blue police box tardis BEFORE Hartnell. You know the one WE JUST SAW (only one doctor back) Clara sacrifice herself in the Drs timeline to prompt him to pick!!! They then literally give screen time to Jodie waxing lyrical/lecturing us about how we apparently SHOULDN'T CARE about her/our past... And only focus on the present. That is just such a dumb and dangerous concept and frankly a very low point from the BBC. The timeless child takes the story of what started as a rebellious grandfather defying society (and sneakily educating children of earth at the same time)... And just scribbles all over it (retconning the Dr, the origin (we saw) of the iconic Dr troops, killing off the time lords again, who we waited 6? Season to be restored?).. Then to try and tie it all up... They threw the flux at us, destroyed the whole universe, and conveniently forgot about it in the next scene/episode). That whole arc and series has created such a stink... that it still stinks up the show - now apparently death can be brought to the universe... But again, one short episode later with the Dr apparently on the quest for a spoon? ... And we can simply move on and forget about death to the universe. (sigh, no wonder Jodie wants us to focus on the moment... As the new Dr stories seem a bit too close to the British empires take on history - move on nothing to see here!!! Which is maddening as Jodie also gave us the great Rosa Parks and Pakistan border episodes.... Only to be followed by the terrible tesla episodes, and a magic cure for dyspraxia (or the terrible writers simply kept forgetting!) .
"According to the Doctor...*
Rule number one: the Doctor lies.
these are the eleventh doctor rules... each doctor has their own set of rules.
*According to River Song
RTD also lies.
rule number two: if he doesnt lie, refer to rule number one
In the 3rd Dr's era, there was going to be a story that revealed The Dr and The Master were brothers, but it never happened due to Roger Delgado's fatal accident.
I still can't get over that the Great Later Roger Delgardo died in a such common Tragic Way to this day: A Car Accident! He was Too Young, I call anyone who passed before or within their 60's (Most of my Dad's side were in their 60's with Heart Attacks *Looking Worried for my Dad* it was too Common) Delgardo was 55!!!
@marionbaggins defintely! There should of, and could have been so many more Master stories in Pertwee's era
He used to have a brother. Not anymore. That doesn't mean that the sibling in question stopped existing. They could have just as easily reincarnated into a sister.
Or just died...
If the Doctor had a sister running around the universe, he wouldn't have believed he was the Last of the Timelords or felt as alone if he could just visit his family. His brother (Irving Braxatiel) had to have died in the Time War.
The Doctor has cousins, nothing else, see Lungbarrow
@@Farsight-nc1ibas much as Doctor Who canon is very flexible, what is stated in the show generally takes more authority and credibility over expanded media. Therefore the show stating something that a book suggested otherwise, a book that has been contradicted many times since the show came back, means the Doctor having siblings is more likely than not.
@@Farsight-nc1ib Lungbarrow might have been the plan at one point, but it doesn’t make a bit of sense with everything we’ve seen since.
In the Timeless Child story arc, the Doctors memory is periodically wiped. To prevent the Doctor knowing their true origins, it appears that after a memory wipe, people would take on a parent role for him. We saw this in the Irish setting where the Doctor became a police officer. The woman in the End of Time story could also have taken on the role of the Doctor's mother - with the Doctor not knowing she was not his biological mother.
Yet the 7th has recollections of the Other. How inconvenient.
I always thought of the Master and the Doctor as brothers of choice, being so close in the Timelord Academy. The Doctor's statement that "I had a brother, not anymore" could even be a statement of disassociation rather then just loss, he had a brother then he want power-mad and wasn't his brother anymore. Whereas the Master clearly retains those fraternal feelings for the Doctor.
It's still possible that the Master is also a Timeless Child and just didn't tell the Doctor.
@Spectritus We saw the Doctor being found alone, and that should be how it stays tbh, because it’s in keeping with the Doctor’s character, with how they are alone and they adopt people or people adopt them.
@Jamezevans123 That was the Master telling the story. It's always possible that he was found with the Doctor but didn't want to reveal it. It's just a theory because of the episode's plural title.
Susen did have a child called Alex in big finish, with both of them meeting the 8th dr
The Dr's brother (also from big finish) is Irving Braxiatel
Thank you, I was about to make this post myself.
One of the comics had a young pair that were allegedly the Doctor’s other grandkids. (Not Susan.)
@brainlock72 they where retconed during the 8th Dr's era as constructs of the land of fiction, appearing in one of the dr's dreams
How can you talk about the Doctor having lost their family, and not include Jodie's talking about how she carries them with her?? One of the best scenes on the topic!
Jodie, is woefully underrated, she did an amazing job with the loo-roll script she was given
So fun fact about the Doctor's brother:
They're actually talking about Braxiatel (or Brax for short). Brax has played large parts in two different spinoffs: Gallifrey and Bernice Summerfield.
Just last year, when Seven finally got his final story as the Doctor (via Big Finish), we find that Brax was killed off-screen during a large reality warping event. Seven finds his corpse being eaten by wildlife.
Also, just last month (November 2024), an anthology for the Gallifrey spinoff has a story centred around Brax. In Brax's story, he also mentions being the Doctor's brother.
Ace is also connected to both of them. She was trained as a Time Lord, and when the Time War broke out, she was sent to Earth with her mind wiped of her knowledge, and her whereabouts erased on Romana's orders, since she was Lady President when that war started.
The Time Lord that did that wipe was Braxiatel. It was so the Time Lords would not draw Earth into the Time War coming to get her.
If you're going to retcon the timeless child, and I really would love to, it would be so cool if it turns out that was actually the master and the two of them grew up together as kind of outcasts and have a brotherly like relationship. Hence the confusion. Or something like that
Apart from the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, the other aspects of the Timeless Child don’t need to be retconned, and can be thought of as separate to the Timeless Child, because really the Timeless Child concept is just the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, the other aspects don’t need that aspect to exist, like for example Tecteun didn’t adopt the Doctor because they could regenerate, that was a later discovery on Gallifrey. The Doctor being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey works, because it fits with the Doctor’s character and the canon of the show, pretty much from the start of the show the Doctor has been an adoptee coded character.
If the only reason you did this was another mention of River Song I'm delighted. Another BRILLTASTIC episode of WhoCulture here. Thank You.
"even Adric."....
THE BEST CHARACTER! 😂
oh Elle, you have no idea, neither do i, just how close the 5th and Adric were.....the 5th looked at Adric like he was the son they never had
I think it's still possible that the Master is also a Timeless Child and maybe the Doctor's sibling, but not necessarily. The series 12 finale is titled "The Timeless Children" which could be referring to either the 7 "Timeless Child" incarnations of the Doctor or another being of the Doctor's species.
2:40 the Doctor's mother on Galifrey is his adopted mother.
Techeun is his adopted mother. We seen her first incarnation, and her second as a man, and Techeun's final incarnation in the void.
The woman in The End of Time is clearly Techeun, sometime before her final incarnation
Important fact: Susan never left the TARDIS, the TARDIS (the Doctor) left Susan😅
I wouldn't exactly call Jenny a 'testtube" daughter. That implies she was the product of invitro-fertalization; which she is not. She is actually the Doctor's Clone so speak.
Actually it's more accurate for her as she's conceived and develops in vitro whereas what we call IVF only starts there and develops in vivo (in a person/life).
@@aprildawnsunshine4326 oh ok.
You must be fun at parties....😂
In the first Doctor Who Magazine they told the readers that normally Time Lords got loomed by some cloning machine each house/clan/family used to replenish their numbers. Naturally born children were deemed as something inferiour and normally were excluded from the Academy. Borusa did fix something with the child that was later to become the Doctor and implemented him into the Academy to develop his potential. So the 7 grandmothers could all stem from his "paternal side" - granny 1 being his father's mother, granny 2 & 3 being his grandmothers (the great-grandmothers to the Doctor) and 4 to 7 the great-great-grandmothers to the Doctor, all still hovering about because of the long-livity of Time Lords. No ancestors from his mother's side, because SHE got loomed on Gallifrey and sent to Earth to grow up there from child to adulthood, never suspecting NOT being human herself [just take the plotline from "The Tempest" and make the father/daughter duo exiled Time Lords]😁
I will still argue pointlessly that there's no actual proof that anything The Doctor has been told about The Timeless Child is true. There's still endless opportunity for some future writer to pull a big fat "Oh No It Isn't" and reveal that The master was lying about The child being The Doctor all along, or heavens knows what other twist..
It is true. The Morbius Doctors and Fugitive Doctor's existence proves it.
One can hope.
@SpectritusI agree with you, people don’t have to like it but to say there is no proof is just wrong. As you said Mobius and the fugitive doctors is the proof.
Apart from the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, the other aspects of the Timeless Child don’t need to be retconned or revealed as a lie, because those aspects (Pre-Hartnell Doctors, the Doctor being a Time Lord pioneer, & the Doctor being an adoptee & foundling not from Gallifrey) all fit with the Doctor’s character & canon of the show.
In Flux the Doctor quite literally came face to face with Tecteun, who confirmed that what the Master told her was true.
Also see Braxiatel, his brother in the Big Finish audio stories
The doctor did have a brother called Irving Braxiatel, he spent a lot of time with 7th doctor companion prof benny sommerfield.
The 8th doctor did reunite with Susan, where Susan had a son called Alex, so the doctor was a great grandfather. Alex was exterminated by the daleks while aiding lucie Miller in stopping the dalek time controller. Alex was then returned to the doctor during the time war by the dalek time strategist, who found him during its journey through the multiverse. Now I mention these as the 8th doctor companions and adventures from big finish have been mentioned or referenced on screen, so I see them as cannon
8's Big Finish is Canon because Night of the Doctor, the Mary was referring to Shelley when she was the Companion of 8!!!
I disagree with those that say that the Timeless Child means that the Woman in the End of Time can’t be the Doctor’s mum, as you say Ellie all it means is that she wasn’t their birth mum, and was either their foster or adoptive mum. But considering the 15th Doctor said that he’d recently discovered that he was adopted, I’d say that the Woman was the First Doctor’s foster mother. Mapping out the First Doctor’s early life using what’s been revealed across the show:
Baby First Doctor is placed into a kids home by Tecteun, he spends about 6 years there, sometimes running away to a barn to cry. Then a Prydonian Family (Mum, Dad, Siblings, 7 Grannies) takes the Doctor in and fosters him at their home perched halfway up a mountain.
The other option would be if the Doctor was regenerated into a baby or toddler and was placed with a family, but then something happened to their parents and the kids were split up and placed in separate homes/orphanages. It would explain why the boy was crying so much - he'd had a wonderful happy life and lost it all!
@@CritterKeeper01Yeah, that’s true actually. Perhaps something happening to their parents was deliberate. Tecteun gave the Doctor to a family, to parents who were part of Division, and were tasked by Tecteun to act as his birth family, and then Tecteun had them killed so the Doctor would be alone.
And this is why the Timeless Child has messed everything up, the settings ie where the doctor lived doesn't go with the barn in the middle of no where. It makes it like the Doctor was a well looked after person a very special and important person all through her/his generations.
Why do people forget about the Big Finish stories where Susan frequently appears in , as shes had multiple stories with 8 and her own spin off series set during the Time War
They think it's not Canon but Night of the Doctor confirmed it is Canon.
10 confirms to Wilf and Sylvia at Donna’s wedding. He doesn’t say it but he gestures.
I think when he said he used to have a brother but not anymore he meant more of a brother from another mother as in the master but as hes being evil now adays hes hardly a brother to him.
And then they became friends again when the master became Missy who is obviously better than River Song.
But in one episode (I can't remember which one) 12 says "He was my man crush, at least I'm fairly sure he was a man back then, I was too, I think" or something like that, talking about The Master to Bill, so it could be a retcon, knowing this show it probably is, but still,
Not to mention whoever the mother of his children is. I always assumed he was a widower, given the era the show started in, but I don’t think we actually know anything about her
I believe this as well. He doesn't mention his first wife since it must be a painful memory to him.
Sometime before the Great Time War, some Time Lords have decided to establish a colony in order to preserved Gallifreyian Civilization. Or least preserved most of the Civilization. The establishment of the Colony had reminded a great secret. Most of the Doctor's family was one of the few who were aware of the colony. Because the Doctor was not aware of the secret colony, he had thought that he had lost almost of his entire family. Oddly one of my fan theories theorized that one of the reasons why the Doctor had decided to end the Great Time War was seeing the deaths of innocents. He had seen the massacres of entire families. Due to the loss of one of his children, the Doctor had decided to end the WAR.
To be very clear, no parent wants one of his children to die before he does. Oddly the reason why the Doctor's child had died because he was a member of the Military. Ironic according to my theory, the Doctor's child had sacrificed his own life to save their father's life . Due to his status as a very important leader. Oddly the nineth Doctor's partial amnesia had cause him to conclude that his family was killed by the War's end.
The best way to what happen to the Doctor's family is that due to the pain of the Great Time War, the Doctor concluded that he had lost almost all of his family. When it comes to the survivors, the Doctor is partially open to this fact. When the Doctor had seen the woman who had turned out to be his mother, the Doctor was shock. About what happen to his parent' marriage. the marriage ended after the Doctor's father had regenerated. Doe the Long life span of the Time Lords, the parents of the Doctor became very good friends as well as continuing to love all of their children.
Am I the only one who thinks twenty-four years is long enough to have and raise a child together?
So many questions that were answered in Big Finish, the VNA novels and comics, however, there's always the issue of "cannon"
I dont think timeless child messed up anything in the timeline. I think she was the doctors mother after their memories were reset
River Song confirmed that it doesn't matter what the Doctor says about his family at various points throughout canon, simply by reminding us "the Doctor lies" (the ultimate get out of jail free card)
The first doctor is a grandfather, had a granddaughter in the first episodes.
Every Doctor is an incarnation of one of their personality facets .
I disagree with the doctor being an orphan. Its said that gallifreyan children are taken from their parents at the age of 8 to enter accademy training, and the untenpered schism seems to be in the countryside just like the barn.
The barn in Listen was pre-academy. This is the full scene:
MAN: Why does he have to sleep out here?
WOMAN: He doesn't want the others to hear him crying.
MAN: Why does he have to cry all the time?
(Clara hides under the bed.)
WOMAN: You know why.
MAN: There'll be no crying in the army.
WOMAN: Hush.
MAN: Don't pretend you're not awake. We're not idiots.
WOMAN: Come and sleep in the house. You don't have to be alone. If you can hear me, you're very welcome in the house, with the other boys. I'll leave the door on the latch. Come in any time.
MAN: He can't just run away crying all the time if he wants to join the army.
WOMAN: He doesn't want to join the army. I keep telling you.
MAN: Well, he's not going to the Academy, is he, that boy? He'll never make a Time Lord.
The Woman telling the Doctor to come back into the house with the other boys means that he was living in a Children’s Care Home, meaning the Doctor was an orphan.
a rundown barn on a large patch of property doesn't necessarily equate to poverty, either
@@Jamezevans123 Ah shit, weirdly that whole exchange just slipped my mind. Thanks for reminding me 😊
Yeah I suppose it seems more likely that he is probably an orphan. I guess I just don't really like that backstory for The Doctor, it's just a part of their history that shouldn't really be revealed in my opinion.
@@skumchiken01 Yeah. I don't like the shout that Gallifrey is capitalist, or has a system that is anywhere near one of earth's systems. They should be so far beyond us, their systems should be nearly incomprehensible.
@@cricketdogg one would hope a billion-year-old society would move beyond our economic systems
Almost mentioning the Looming from Lungbarrow! So close! 😂
Several teases of that story here and across in-show canon.
The varying degrees of siblings/extended family can be taken two ways, if not more:
-being the Timeless Child, they have no bio-family (siblings/ancestral)
-with regeneration, any male relative can also be a female relative. I’m surprised they haven’t added neutral gendering for this, by now.
I’m sure you’d agree, Ellie, that we still really do need a special episode (not necessarily an anniversary, but ASAFP!) to get Jodie and Alex (and JO?!?) together, and River maybe not recognizing her wife(s) at first, same as 12 in HoRS, where she does refer to husbands and wives, both plural. And not including the head of Greg Davies. 😂
And yes, I am aware that audios and other media have River meeting other incarnations over her 200+ year lifespan.
Speaking of other media, a comic gave the Doctor two more grandchildren, once upon a time.
10:16 that boy in the Timeless children, on the cliff is the Master.
Missy said the Doctor and Master were friends a long time, even back to when the Doctor was a little girl.
Missy was joking when saying that part.
Was she? She said one of the things she said was a lie. Which one?
The Doctor stole the president's daughter, the doctor, and the Master were friends forever.
The Master knew about the Timeless children before the doctor.
Granted, the Master was inside the Toymaker's tooth, and the Toymaker made a jigsaw of the doctor's life.
The Toymaker created the Timeless children arc
Wow, can't believe you didn't talk about Amy and Rory being his parents in law 😮
There is a line in the Course of fenric where he's ask about where his family is and he says he doesn't know. I thought that he knows that the time war has started
My personal belief is that the Timeless child actually came to be, or at least became what they were, in the Time Vortex (which would explain how the 'exposure to the time vortex' origin of regeneration that was previously established and is explicitly how it worked for Melody Pond, meshes with the DNA spliceing of the Timeless child origin)
Who knows, perhaps if the child was sent through the vortex and simply fell through the that portal, maybe their mother was a human!
With the "the doctor used to have a brother"
Hes probably talking about the master,
They were close friends and because of that, the doctor probably saw thr master as a brother and when the master turned evil, its like the doctor lost his brother,
Like anakin and obi-wan
Garmadon and wu
Takka and mufasa
Ect
I still don’t know why Chibnall was ever given the reigns. I had been excited when Moffat was named head writer after having received several nominations and wins for his writing, I was just so disappointed by the Chibnall era. His previous episodes were just so underwhelming. I don’t know why Gatiss wasn’t selected. The Timeless Child is just so bad in so many different ways. RTD isn’t bad, his first acts are always engaging, but I feel like he never sticks the landing. I have been enjoying the new series, I just wish newer or better talent would be brought in that understand the show. The real crime is that Ellie hasn’t been asked.
Of course, you have the right to have your own opinion. I agree that the Chibnall era wasn't great but I think what Chris Chibnall did with the Timeless Child storyline is very clever and works very well.
@ Cheers. Personally, I feel like Chibnall is just a lazy writer that destroyed a lot of potential trying too hard to be clever. I really like Sacha Dhawan as an actor and feel like he can elevate scenes despite poor material, but bringing the Master back so soon after Missy and then decimating Gallifrey was such an arrogant and cheap move for any writer, undoing a lot of the work from the 50th and before. I’m glad there’s a new series, but the creative decisions from the Chibnall era will be difficult to remedy.
@Bronzehans Sacha Dhawan was great as the Master. I don't think Gallifrey's destruction is actually problematic, script wise. But, it is of course sad in-story.
Apart from the Doctor being the origin of regeneration, which is what the Timeless Child is, the other aspects like Pre-Hartnell Doctors, the Doctor being a Time Lord pioneer, and the Doctor being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey, aren’t bad. The former two are concepts from Classic Who, and the latter builds on the characterisation of the Doctor.
Irving Braxiatel
Oooh. Brax mention!
If they're going to bring back Carol Ann Ford, it really needs to be now because...Well...You know...
Big Finish she did.
I do not believe for a single second that Irving Braxiatel is really dead. That man is far too devious and crafty to let death reach him before his time. I do hope that the show acknowledges him at some point. He's referenced once in 'City of Death' in connection to the art collection bearing his name but he's never appeared outside of expanded media. For being the Doctor's big brother, that shocks me to be honest. I hope they call up Miles Richardson to play him on screen one day.
Let's not forget Patience, the Doctor's wife with whom he had kids, including Susan/Aktyor's father, seen in Cold Fusion!
Or Leela and Andred/Ulysses and Penelope as his biological parents.
Headcanon: Leela and Andred give birth to a child, half-human, half-time lord. The child grows up, but is whisked away by Faction Paradox and becomes known as Intrepid, and for a few regenerations fights in The War. Then when timelines are destroyed due to the 8th Doctor erasing said War from ever happening (in... what was it, The Ancestor Cell? Alien Bodies?) Intrepid sees their memories blurred and shifted, only to find themselves on a planet in the distant past, where Tecteun finds them.
Brought to ancient Gallifrey, the timeless child thing happens, and when their DNA is broken down, the Eternal War against the Great Vampire happens. Rassilon becomes infatuated with power, overthrows the Pithia, becomes Lord President, and Gallifrey is cursed with sterility. Omega helps developing the Eye of Harmony, and The Other arrives from the future to help out, by creating the Looms.
The Division sees it as a perfect way to get rid of some undesirable, and throw the timeless child in it, for their DNA to get sliced and blended with Gallifrey-born time lords. Eons a years later, a Gallifrean is born, and takes on the title The Doctor. Trraveling in time, like their father Ulysses did, they eventually are recruited again by the Division (Fugitive Doctor era), and now having memory erasing techniques, is eventually released from service. Now in their "Brain of Morbius Doctors" era, they settle down on Gallifrey with Patience.
However, as the Doctor changes faces, they realised they have become the one being that would -according to history- help save Gallifrey in the distant past: The Other. Taking a TT Capsule, The Other travels back in time to fulfil their destiny by creating the Looms, so that sterile Gallifrean can create new timelords. Unbeknowst to them (initially), Aktyor their granddaughter, came with them in the past.
The flashbacks of Lungbarrow happen, and after the "death" of Omega, Rassilon becomes more and more in need of The Other's help, despite him wanting to return to his own time. Threatening their granddaughter, The Other only sees one solution to save their family for good: to disappear entirely, and as such, throws themselves into a Loom, conscious this time.
Because of them being awake and conscious and not a dead body like its usually the case, The Other's mind and memories are somewhat kept when the next reincarnation is loomed, untold eons later. Assuming the name Doctor again, the "original" escapes their own time with a stolen TTC, to attend the funerals of Rassilon, only to be treated by Susan/Aktyor, who recognises her grandfather's brain.
It was never stated that the Doctor was not born on Gallifrey, just that the child was found at that portal. Until it is stated, it's within reason that Gallifrey is still their planet of origin.
I have a plan that makes it work and keeps the Timeless Child intact.
It's quite obvious that The Doctor wasn't born on Gallifrey. The Doctor is the only known being capable of regenerating naturally. And the Doctor being found under the portal clearly implies the Doctor came through it.
The Doctor doesn’t need to be from Gallifrey in order to be a Gallifreyan. When they were adopted by Tecteun, they adopted a Gallifreyan identity, which grew the more time passed, especially when Tecteun brought them to Gallifrey and raised them.
@@Jamezevans123 Exactly! Raised Gallifreyan, pure Gallifreyan culture and identity. Finding out he was adopted doesn't change that.
@@CritterKeeper01 THANK YOU👏
I’m an adoptee myself, and a stigma that we face is non-adoptees calling our birth parents/family our “real parents/family” suggesting that our adoptive parents/family aren’t because we aren’t biologically related. When people say that the Doctor isn’t a real Gallifreyan because they aren’t from Gallifrey, it’s the exact same stigma. This idea you have to be from somewhere/someone, in order for an identity to be legitimate, that if you were raised in that country or family, but aren’t native to them, that means you’re not a legitimate member, which is a load of bollocks.
Who knows, the Doctor might be his own parents. R.A.H. did that plot perfectly in 'All you Zombies' a.k.a. 'Predestination'.
The Eighth Doctor briefly remembered his father and mentioned it to Grace in the TV Movie. And since you dismissed the idea that The Doctor is half-human, it should be remembered Ashildr told the Twelfth Doctor her theory about him and point-blank asked him if it were true he’s half-human. To which he answered “does it even matter?” with much emotional pain… heavily inferring it was true. And while the suggestion is not popular amongst a vocal minority in fandom, it’s certainly a lot more popular than The Timeless Child nonsense.
He could be half human from the other universe.
Thank you, oh dear Rassilon thank you for explaining the Doctor having children. So many poeple have been taking what was said in the Sutec return episode seriously. The Doctor has had children before the line in the episode wasn't a real thing and was written into the script by mistake
The title is things we do know, but words that indicate uncertainty are used…
Hmmm.
As to #1, nothing requires that the Doctor wasn’t from a wealthy family or one of low status…
It could be the farm was not an orphanage, but a boarding school or a reform school.
The master/Missy could easily be the Doctors foster brother/sister.
i can see this video covers only the new doctor who series. because in the old series (the episodes the survived) you can meet some of the doctor's immediate family, such as his granddaughter. hell it even states on the doctor who Wikipedia what happens to her.
edit: yea, the doctor's grand daughter is named susan foreman, she was a Gallifreyan translator. and its speculated that she was dead after the genocide of the time lords.
???
This is all covered in the video though?
@9nikola the part i watched stayed that it was "unclear of the doctor had children and grandchildren" but maybe I misheard. It was playing in my background while I was playing some games.
@@dantetheocelot why did you comment criticising what the video covers when you didn't watch it though? You didn't even watch the whole video? You just had a part of it on in the background and decided to pretend the rest didn't contain what you wanted it to?
@9nikola i dont know you, or care enough to continue this conversation to answer questions regarding my lifestyle. Go bother someone else.
Except, We already have the origin story of the Doctor. (series 1 & 2 of new WHo; the Master series 3 & 4 and the TARDIS series 5-7A and how the Doctor become the Doctor in series 7B (extended to include -9
The adults in the barn sceneI had always thought it was more of a boarding school and sleeping in the barn was a punishment
“Ten things we actually know - We don’t know about Susan…” Makes sense 😅
The Doctor came from the Golden dimension just beyond the void.
Wonder is the Doctor's family has something in common with the Pantheon of Gods from the void?
Adric!! I love Adric - my favorite companion.❤
Guess we are not including Big Finish stuff
It feels strange to hear Ellie mention River Song without saying she's the best character.
*WHY do you guys keep missing this?*
The 15th Doctor flat out says that he hasn't met Susan's parent (the Doctor's Time Lord or Time Lady son or daughter) yet.
In other words, he is *SURE* that he doesn't have children who could have been Susan's parent.
This leaves us only with 2 options:
1) The Doctor has had children who died before they were old enough to have children of their own;
2) The Doctor *HASN'T HAD CHILDREN YET.*
Note 1: Susan's mother could very well be Jenny, but the Doctor is not counting her because he thinks she's dead: she's not.
Note 2: The Doctor might have received info about this person's name, looks and other info from Susan, but given the nature of Time Lords and regenerations, if that was the case, he couldn't be sure that he hadn't met them yet.
Note 3: His conversation with the doctor in series 1 mentions how sad he is at having lost all of Gallifrey, not a specific person.
The 15th Doctor* might also just not know about Jenny being alive, so she could be Susan's mother for all we know. Or some other child of his might be presumed dead prior to having kids. He isn't sure of anything. All we really know is that he doesn't know who Susan's parents were.
You are forgetting The Doctor is a time traveler. Any child of his born after 2024 by an earlier regeneration would fit the definition of "not yet". For example if William Hartnell's Doctor had children in Earth year 51000 they would "not yet" be born as of Earth year 2024.
@@9nikola
That's *QUITE LITERALLY* what I said.
Jenny could be Susan's mother.
He is convinced that Jenny is dead, so he doesn't count her.
Other than that... sure, theoretically there could have been *ANOTHER* long dead son or daughter *THAT HE NEVER SPOKE ABOUT IN THOUSANDS OF YEARS, NOT EVEN ALL THOSE TIMES WHEN HE WAS MOURNING THE LOSS OF HIS WHOLE RACE.*
But that would be a ridiculous asspull, wouldn't it?
No.
Either it's Jenny, *AS I SAID,* or it's a child the Doctor hasn't had, yet.
@@Tim.Stotelmeyer
I'm not forgetting that the Doctor is a time traveler, and that's not how it works.
The Doctor *ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS* talks about this kind of things from the point of view of *HIS* personal timeline.
He doesn't care about linear time.
Things that have happened to him before happened *TO HIM* before (even both times he went to the end of time).
And things that *HAVEN'T HAPPENED TO HIM YET* ...well... they haven't happened *TO HIM.*
They might have happened or not for the universe around him, but not *TO HIM.*
@@happyslapsgiving5421 lmao you edited your comment to include what I said and then get mad at me for saying it?
But the time line where susan gets left don't exist any more coz ant it years be for and no one remembers a dalek attack?
Did they ever address how the timeless child storyline works when in The Name of The Doctor, it takes The Time Lords through a crack in the universe give him a whole other round of regenerations?
The other Time Lords may not know he is the timeless child. His true identity kept secret by Section.
@ That’s the direction I was seeing too, but then I am trying to guess what then did he actually gain when the Time Lords gave him that regeneration power. Like, what extra did it give The Doctor?
@@SheSaidWhat1101 It did supercharge his regeneration to the point that he had the energy to destroy a Dalek ship. If a normal Time Lord could do that if given an new set of regenerations then the Time Lords would have weaponized it during the time war.
Given The Doctor's mother, his brother is a Doctor, Too.
The Doctor mentioned a father during the Third Doctor era.
When it comes to Susan, bear in mind that she's a timelord, so if/ when he sees her again, she could be played by anyone, including a male and now be his grandson
Just because the woman in the barn says "join the other boys" and not "brothers" it doesn't mean she isn't referring to biological brothers. Quite often my mum would refer to my brothers and I as "the boys".
The doctor IS his clone "daughter" And a paradox with no beginning, which make as much sense as the pointless...um timeless child
At the beginning of The Legend of Ruby Sunday, The Doctor tells Kate that he had a Granddaughter but when she says that he must have kids then he says "no, not quite, not yet" and she says "the life of a Time Lord?" I took this to mean that RTD is now implying that The Doctor hasn't had any children yet, including Susan's mother or father. This doesn't fit in with many of the other things you have quoted so I am kind of hoping it gets quietly dropped.
Or his children were born in Earth's future but his past. Time travel makes grammar rules about tenses confusing.
@Tim.Stotelmeyer Yes, I like that interpretation. I hope that's right.
Pet theory that may never have any follow up or use in the series: given their references to 'the Academy,' I strongly suspect that Bel and Vinder were extra-dimensional, other-universe Gallifreyans. I believe Chibnall was setting them up to be parents of the Timeless Child. I also suspect that they would have been revealed to be other-universe versions of the Master and the Doctor.
Interesting, but I think you misunderstood "other universe". It's not a parallel world. It's just another place in Space. Like there are several galaxies, there are several universes (it's actually possible irl as well).
Kids and grandkids would be biological family, even if siblings, parents, etc., refer to adopted family -- unless, of course, he also adopted the kids and grandkids! But also, how reliable is anything he said? The Doctor lies!
Ahhh the Timeless Child. The biggest hash ever in the history of the show. Instead of being unique the Doctor became a continuation of a continuation of a continuation.....
What if the doctor originally came from petes world thats why there was no version of a doctor there before the meta crisis 😂
Number 10. I don't think that that proved that the Doctor was an orphan. You even then talk about the Doctor's mother in number 8. I take the barn as being part of a boarding school rather than an orphanage. Therefore he may be from a rich family. The conversation between him and the Master in the Sound of Drums suggests both Time Lord families have a lot of land.
The Master was The Doctors first man crush, so not his brother.
I put forth that The Doctor is of the same people as the Toymaker and the other "Celestials", which will probably get a less problematic name. Time will tell.
How does the 10th doctor have kids if the 15th says that he doesn’t?
What about the other David Tennants running around? You know, the regenerated hand and the bi-generation. Brothers? Cousins?
Can't we just erase the Timeless Child storyline from exitance?
Mine is the DEFECTIVE GOD theory. It goes as such:
.
The doctor's regeneration ability was a universal game changer in the shows dimension but compared to entities like the solitract, toymaker, maestro etc, it's actually not much. So my theory is that the doctor originates from an extra dimensional immortal race that can change their form aka regenerate (and heal) at will.
.
Upon discovering their child can't change form and is 'disabled' the parents exile them away to a universe with similarly limited people - us. Which could've been either an act of love or cruelty depending on what the parents society is like.
.
It wasn't until the doctor 'died' the first time that it's revealed they actually do have the ability to change form just not at will. Maybe the bio parents knew and maybe they didn't..either way it's still inferior to their ability to freely heal and change from.
.
So that's my theory. The doctor is a defective god from another dimension. Perhaps the doctor's humility, compassion and mercy stems from the subconscious were the long forgotten earliest memories of being ostracized and rejected remain a fundamental part of the doctor's essence/soul/what-have-you.
"Its complicated”, as somebody once said.
In "The Legend of Ruby Sunday” Fifteen says his own children haven't been born yet, so I guess that in some future incarnation of The Doctor , they become a parent, later to see their granddaughter travel back in time to meet the First Doctor, who adopts her, so to speak.
Anything is possible in a Timey Timey jumble, and explains how easily detached Susan has been, in the six decades since. She has been fostered out after all.
Or his children were born in Earth's future but in The Doctor's past. He is a time traveler after all.
"And then of course there was River Song herself..." me: wait for it..."who married the Doctor in etc. etc."
ELLIE DIDN'T SAY THE THING.
We were just as surprised as you!
Who’s to say the Doctor didn’t have siblings in the other universe?
The Doctor is Wesley Crusher from the Star Trek universe. With that Khan blood from the Kelvin universe mixed in his DNA.
I'm still hoping that a show runner comes along and makes the timeless child a lie. This over the top doctor is getting worse every iteration. I'd love it if a show runner actually come and says everything after capaldi is a fabrication and the doctor resets.
I think we can all agree that Doctor who is best off by ignoring the timeless child storyline n just say it’s a lie as it just ruins n shits on all the history that’s been established already
I've never actually beaten youtubes new vid notification to a new video before, cool.
He is a parent.
The Doctor was from the house of Lungbarrow, he has cousins. He was born a Timelord.
More woven than born, and that's not to mention what he was before that.
@timidwolf yes, he was woven. I just meant he was born a Timelord, not an ordinary Gallifreyan. And technically a reincarnation of the Other, or at least some of him!
He didn’t grow up poor. In Hell Bent Me (Ashilda) states “ Tell me Doctor. Your a… time lord. A high born Gallifrean. Why is it you spend so much time on earth? I think he stayed in the barn as part of his Time Lord education. I think that was some sort of crappy Time Lord elementary school dorm. Lol. They are such sticklers for status I just assumed they had to “earn” their privilege amongst the privileged.
i still belive the timelords createt the angels.
Ignore timeless child
I personally boycott the timeless child thing
Can we stop talking like Adric was the worst companion when it was and will always be Donna
So if the doctor is from another universe, does that mean the Who Universe has a separate Doctor?
The Doctor is from another universe but not from a parallel world.
@Spectritus how can you be from another universe and still be from the same world?
@@alphyishere There are different types of universes, prime which are what parallel universes branch off from. Like for example our universe is a prime, and Pete’s universe as seen in Series 2/4 is parallel because it branched off from our universe. So if the Doctor did come through the wormhole they were found under, from another universe, then it’s likely that they came from a prime universe.
But no, the Who Universe is the universe that the Doctor was transported into if they did come through the wormhole. I say if because the Doctor’s native planet might’ve been one of the early inhabitants planets in our universe.
@@alphyishere It's like being from another galaxy, but from another universe.
He's not. He's from Gallifrey, the house of Lungbarrow
If the Doctor is from another universe, that would explain his regenerations that break the known laws of the universe
Could Susan be Jennie’s daughter?
No, because she came way after and Susan's Parents were before.
Rule 1, the Doctor lies
All of Whovians know continuity is not one of the show's strong suits. It's pretty much laughable at this poimt. Where some ofus disagree is the whole "timeless child" stuff. I think it's nonsense imo, and creates more contradictions and inconsistencies than anything before it, in regards to this subject. But, to each their own I suppose.
It's an awful retcon that makes no sense at all.
Ccome on guys there is some fresh news to report but I will not impeed on your channel and you can hopefully report on it soon.
Doctor Constintine? He's first name wouldn't be John Would it?
So 100% of this totally ignores the rubbish "Timeless child" bullshit right (oh, sorry 90%).
Especially "the Drs mother"... You just going to ignore that? "a spanner thrown in the works."... You know who culture could do some good by just openly condemning that BS. You going mention that the Dr is half human too right? Who is disregarding that... Certainly im not compared to timeless child bs.
Having the timeless child mess it's self over 60 years worth of TV show does cheapen your brand too, you do see that right. Just keep calling them out on it, and it will soon be dropped and forgotten (as much and as quickly as "half human").
It’s not BS though, I understand disliking the actual Timeless Child concept, the Doctor being the origin of regeneration. But the Doctor having incarnations before Hartnell that exist all the way back to before the founding of Time Lord society and being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey all fits with the Doctor’s character and the canon of the show.
The concept of Pre-Hartnell Doctors has existed since the first on-screen regeneration, The Power of the Daleks, explicitly shown in The Brain of Morbius, and expanded upon in the 7th Doctor’s era. Hartnell’s Doctor is not defined by the fact that he’s the very first incarnation or not, it’s the decisions and actions he made like running away from Gallifrey, coming to Earth, and going on the journey we’ve followed him on since An Unearthly Child that defines him, Pre-Hartnell Doctors doesn’t affect any of that. The idea of the Doctor being a pioneer among his own people has existed since The Daleks (1963) and expanded upon in the 7th Doctor’s era.
The Doctor being an adoptee and foundling not from Gallifrey fits with the Doctor’s character because they’ve always been an adoptee coded character. As an adoptee myself I’m able to see that, and so is RTD as well, and he’s not even an adoptee. He said this in an interview:
“That is the journey and hopefully for seasons to come. It has put the Doctor in a very interesting position and what I love about this notion of him being a foundling, an orphan, is that it fits with the image of the Doctor anyways. He's always been alone, travelled on his own, needs a companion, finds new ones to take with him, then it breaks his heart when they leave. So, that's a man always searching for a family, always creating a found family, which is wonderful, I love that. And so it fit’s for him to be adopted, to have been lost in the universe abandoned as a child. It's one of those great bits of lore that actually resonates with what the character always was, I'm overjoyed with it."
And if you listened to Ellie, she backtracks on saying that the Timeless Child throws a spanner in the works that the Woman in The End of Time is the Doctor’s mum, because all it means is that the Woman is not the Doctor’s birth mum, and is either their adoptive or foster mum. And that doesn’t devalue anything, because adoptive and foster mums are real mums, just as real and valid as birth mums are.
@@Jamezevans123 that's rubbish. It is not stated the faces in Morbius are the Doctor, nor does the Other validate the Timeless Child. The Other died when he through himself into a loom on Gallifrey, the Doctor certainly received some of his genetic makeup and/or memories but he has nothing to do with the Timeless Child.
@Jamezevans123 there are interesting ideas in the timeless child... But it was done is such a hackneyed and sloppy manner, all we are left with is confusion, and anger at the show disrespectings it's 60 years history.
You even admit that it is the story's we have watched that make him/her/them important... We saw the doctor in unearthly child... We know that his daughter invented the name tardis, and that it got STUCK as the blue box starting with Hartnell...
Then the stupid timeless child arc tries to tell us that Ruth doctor (who manages to out doctor poor Jodie doctor in her limited scenes...) Has been running around the universe, in a blue police box tardis BEFORE Hartnell.
You know the one WE JUST SAW (only one doctor back) Clara sacrifice herself in the Drs timeline to prompt him to pick!!!
They then literally give screen time to Jodie waxing lyrical/lecturing us about how we apparently SHOULDN'T CARE about her/our past... And only focus on the present.
That is just such a dumb and dangerous concept and frankly a very low point from the BBC.
The timeless child takes the story of what started as a rebellious grandfather defying society (and sneakily educating children of earth at the same time)... And just scribbles all over it (retconning the Dr, the origin (we saw) of the iconic Dr troops, killing off the time lords again, who we waited 6? Season to be restored?).. Then to try and tie it all up... They threw the flux at us, destroyed the whole universe, and conveniently forgot about it in the next scene/episode).
That whole arc and series has created such a stink... that it still stinks up the show - now apparently death can be brought to the universe... But again, one short episode later with the Dr apparently on the quest for a spoon? ... And we can simply move on and forget about death to the universe.
(sigh, no wonder Jodie wants us to focus on the moment... As the new Dr stories seem a bit too close to the British empires take on history - move on nothing to see here!!! Which is maddening as Jodie also gave us the great Rosa Parks and Pakistan border episodes.... Only to be followed by the terrible tesla episodes, and a magic cure for dyspraxia (or the terrible writers simply kept forgetting!) .