According to Google, Nocturne means "a short composition of a romantic nature, typically for piano." That's so cool because it's like the parry and then the subsequent hits make a short melody of some sort
@@garvielloken8494 Cyberpunk-themed Fighting Game. One of the characters is a robot with a TV for a head. He has a Raging Demon-style super that shows an in-universe ad. It's meant to be a timer scam super. Bam, great idea.
i think it'd be neat if remy always had blue nocturne regardless of his super selection a la kkz/demon. that way it'd see extremely occasional use in the scenarios in which it's good while not giving up your other supers
The problem is Akuma only has one bar set up for all 3 of his supers. Remy has two great supers but with completely different bar set ups. You’d either make sa1 needlessly worse and unviable because you’re giving it sa2’s length or you’re making sa2 disgustingly good by making it an invincible super with good damage and a great anti air tool with the length of boomerang raid.
@@Neogears1312 Why not keep the bar lengths the same and just have Blue Nocturne have a different cost depending on the super you choose? Blue Nocturne would be cheaper and synergize slightly better with SAI, but you're doing this with the cost of running a super that's a bit less generally useful than SAII (although ig that depends on the matchup). Also I wonder what a hypothetical replacement SAIII could be lol
Something you could’ve shown to compare it to Daimon’s Neomax is how with that counter super you can confirm into it. While in HD Mode you can cancel into it from another of his super
The only thing I can think of right off the top of my head is that Anji's counter super in GGST will actually beat safe jumps, but I'm not sure trading that for losing to throws (which most metered reversals will cleanly beat) is really all that much of a selling point.
@@schitzie it beats safe jumps, but its still incredibly situational, another comparison would be his old options between reversal fuujin and using a move with a guard point. if you try to safe jump one of his guard points, you usually get hit for your troubles.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
The last point is a really important thing developer's don't always seem to understand. If a game has moves with full invincibilty, a counter is almost always WORSE, because the counter won't come out if the opponent isn't hitting, and fully invincible moves can be used in the same situations and more. It's especially bad when counters don't work against throws and projectiles, while invincible attacks do. The few edges counters may have is if they trigger grab-like moves that work every time, like in KOF. That means they may work in rare cases that just invincible moves would whiff, and they can counter from any range without falling out. In KOF there are a few anti-air counters that are useful for this reason, when DPs may trade or whiff against some jump arcs, the counter always triggers the hit. SF has always seemed a bit strange to me how for a lot of supers the victims can just fall out, whereas in KOF very few supers do that, and most attack barrages are basically a cinematic that's guaranteed if the first hit connects without trading.
i think counters like Jiren's (DBFZ) counter are a great design for that weakness. yes, it wont trigger unless you hit him (Or throw) but you can change how long its active to throw off the opponents punish. if you compare that to a standard Dp it has fair balance of pros and cons.
@@internetmovieguy Which is a bit funny and ironic given that Jiren's counter was initially *extremely* bad apparently before it finally got buffed/fixed within the past year. I think the same applies for Videl's dodge move, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one still sucked.
Another thing is utility. Rock Howard gets a counter and an invincible dp. You’d question why use the counter except the counters have a lot of utility behind them. They build meter really well on whiff and have next to no recovery on a generally turtly character. On counter hit they cause a spin which can let you combo after for extra damage and this is hit confirmable because when it’s a normal hit it hard knockdown for oki. And lastly Rocks DP is a charge motion. This adds some dichotomy to them as the need for charge makes it so you can’t use it for a panic move but it can be used offensively as well.
@@MusicoftheDamned Videl's dodge is still awful. To simplify the weakness it; you can stagger pressure her without any risk because unlike reflect it wont push the opponent away.
Another point I'm surprised you didn't cover is parries are a universal counter, why would you use a counter that costs meter and has super flash when you have one available in parry? Yes you need to guess high or low on oki but it's still significantly less risky than using a counter super that has a guaranteed punish if you bait it.
Weirdly, Remy looks very similar to Freeman from Garou, who also has a counter super. Again, Freeman’s is way better because it doesn’t have a super flash. SNK had that figured out a while ago.
On Guilty Gear, there are 2 major counter super exist, both don't have super flash/freeze on startup but activated on confirmed parry. Baiken counter super accessed by inputting the super on her sword parry animation on block (S+H) which is very difficult but technically a reactive super, while Anji counter just give tinge of sound effects upon activation which most of the time its too late to react to the super. EDIT: After re-watching, I realized another factor. Anji counter super on Strive has 2 possible followup. There are maximum vertical and horizontal distance on initiating effects to determine the followup, within the effective vertical distance (IAD for example) the animation will lock on until completion, when the attack came outside of the effective vertical and horizontal distance, it will turn into whiff punishable attack with decent reach to punish half screen distance at best but not much on upper hitbox.
@@NoirLouisStream since you brought up Guilty Gear, I remember Hakumen's counter super in BlazBlue Calamity Trigger used to have this super flash/freeze during startup. they changed it to happen during parry confirms in second installment of BB and onwards, but they kept he big red circle that signifies it being counter super (as opposed to the smaller white circles on his normal counter moves)
Huh, funny this came out with the exact same topic as the Fighting Game Garbage. That series was inspired by Bad Balance as far as I know. Comes full circle.
Posted this elsewhere but thought it was interesting enough for a discussion on the issues with counters; they often lack the utility needed to validate using these over a dp in sf. Sf counters tend to be terrible because they’re incredibly limited. In garou, Rock Howard gets a counter and an invincible dp. You’d question why use the counter when the dp has more going for it on account of it not needing you’re opponent to attack to make it work, except the counters have a lot of utility behind them. They build meter really well on whiff for a character that really wants meter., and have next to no recovery on a generally turtly character. On counter hit they cause a spin which can let you combo after for extra damage on a character with bad damage and this is hit confirmable because when it’s a normal hit it hard knockdown for oki. And lastly Rocks DP is a charge motion. This adds some dichotomy to them as the need for charge makes it so you can’t use it for a panic move but it can be used offensively as well. Rock has tons of reasons to use his counters despite the overlap because there’s situational merit to using it over a dp in a situation. In street fighter who would ever use cross counter even ignoring parries? You could either take damage and maybe hit a jump in, or land a dp that’s fully invincible. Why pick ultra 2 with Fei long? Everything you’d possibly want to choose two for sans animations available in his ultra 1. And he still has a dp for that sort of issue anyway. These options are completely skewed.
I think Kolin is the first SF character to have a meaningful counter because of its frames, since it starts at 2 frames and most pressure in SFV is based around 3 frame moves (DPs included), so it actually has an edge over certain DPs when it comes to disrespecting pressure if you have the right read, all while doing quite a bit of damage, it also makes your opponent pressure sub optimally, making the match go back to neutral, which is where she shines anyway. Gill's parry works very similar to this as well, heck, even Ryu has a somewhat useful parry since it let's him navigate through fireballs with ease, but that's not really a counter in the mechanical sense
whats funny is that im pretty sure that blue nocturne actually uses sprites where remy does a donkey kick that he doesnt use anywhere else in his moveset, so this super might just only exist to only use said sprites which if true would be a hilarious testament to how little thought this super got its probable that this isnt true at all but its fun to think about LOL
One time I played against my little brother and he picked SAIII Remy cause it reminded him of our favorite game Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne and he instantly regret it
Can we get SFA3 Rainbow Mika??!! I'd love to see that episode. Having watched a bunch of your streams I loved what you said in your super art tier list about this super too.
It’s kinda like Xrd Axl where its literal only edge over just DPing is that it does more meterless damage when you land it, but at least Axl gets to have both instead of just picking the better one literally every match
Axl's counter also counters supers. It will counter literally everything . But only on frame 4 onwards. DP is invincible on startup, but will die to armor or moves that leave multiple active frames on-screen. Or other invincible supers.
@@WHATISUTUBE Armor is extremely rare in GG though, I think Hammerfall and Leo 6P are the only things with armor in the game, and betting for someone to do a random super in pressure is really just praying you’re playing someone who actually doesn’t know how to do anything but mash. The only other real advantage counter has is that it can hit from way farther away due to its nature as a counter, but I guess Blue Nocturne also has that benefit too
@@NeoBoneGirl Counters benefit of catching moves from further away shines as an alternative to dps in a game where everyone has midscreen pokes. Or at least, moves that are outside of dps range.
Hakumen's Yukikaze was 'trash' in Calamity Trigger because it was a counter super that didn't counter lows, but it still synergised with his meter-over-time mechanic by making your opponent scared to hit buttons, caught projectiles, and had a fully-invincible unblockable followup attack that went fullscreen instantly, so unless your opponent was high in the sky they'd get tagged. Not to mention the freeze only activated when you hit him and lasted just enough time for your opponent to regret their life choices. I didn't realise quite how bad counter supers could be. I mean damn.
@@Random-yg1fi what controversy? MVC2 is exquisite kusoge incarnate. Glitches up the wazoo, horrible balancing. It's a product of the times, but it would be treated like Kyanta 2 or Dong Dong Never Die if it released any time after.
This is why SNK's supers are better you still get complete hits even if the opponent is in mid-air and Freeman actually just walks towards you when he does he counter super and Daimon's counter super can be used in HD combos though it gives 2 hits only. Btw, it's a great video.
I like how this works in universe: "Instead of just attacking my opponent when they try to do something, I'll let them try to hit me, block it, then attack" Ironically, the end result is the same in game...
Cooler in DBFZ has a counter super. It works on everything in the game except grabs and will always connect because Cooler will teleport to his opponent and it freezes them. What's also important about it is that in a game where every super freezes the screen and will zoom in on the character, Cooler's counter doesn't do that when he uses it only if he lands the counter.
I deeply love these videos Baf, even the shorter ones. Your level of knowledge and skill in explaining things in a clear and concise way is fantastic, and makes you one of those rare quality content creators on youtube. I know you've mentioned you're a little intimidated by the series blowing up, but don't let that shape what you want to do too much. Just keep being you.
It's not just the Universal Overheads that have the mid-air locking issue - a lot of reactable moves that this would work well against are considered airborne. Shoto tatsus, Yun's dash punch, Elena's Rhino Horn, Remy's divekick, Sean's Wheel Kick and Hugo's dropkick/butt shoot/leaping headbutt are some moves that fall under this. Also some moves just blow through it entirely. Urien headbutt, Yun's bicycle kicks and Ibuki's neckbreaker slide are moves that blow throw it, I'm sure there's plenty of other moves that do. It's so bad even when you guess right.
The segment on counter supers having a freeze or not was eye opening, I always wondered why some games had better counter supers than others, but couldn't quite figure out why. Thanks for pointing that out to me Baf
Blue nocturne: - When you start playing the game: "I'm not picking that super because I'm really bad." - When you are an expert at the game: "I'm not picking that super because it's really bad."
Something that would make this super significantly better is if it was available in his other Super Arts like a Raging Demon. I wonder what would replace it as SA3 tho, maybe the command grab version that is in 4rd Strike?
@@SparkyForce I play both Richter and Ken and almost never use parry as Richter because what is the point if I'm always going to use up special out of shield? If I parry with Ken, I get access to proximity heavy jab which is almost always my max damage punish. For how bad parry is in Ultimate, it's really only useful on Ken in my opinion
@@shanerpressley Hard agree. Parrying with shotos or characters with other fast grounded buttons is good. Parrying projectiles on the other hand isn't worth it half the time lol.
@@abbacchio2502 Yeah parry is good for zoners in the sense that it's not particularly effective against them. The original comment was saying that zoners tend to suffer in games with parries, Ultimate is a great example of that not being the case since the parry is ass.
1:03 That never made sense to me, putting a freeze on a counter, which is supposed to be unexpected. ALL Capcom fighting games with counters have that issue. Deadpool’s 4th-Wall Crisis and Taskmaster’s Aegis Counter from UMVC3 stand out to me. Imagine if Smash Bros had Counter Final Smashes. And the idea of selecting a counter and telegraphing it to your opponent is the dressing on the dirt pile.
1:18 "if you hit him this happens" and right when that was said a samsung phone ad qued in with trumpet music blew my mind for a second. Perfect timing and I just started laughing.
Maybe it's so obvious that nobody mentions it but, on top of everything else, a counter super in a game where parry is an universal mechanic that also acts as a confirm is totally redundant and pointless, basically wasting a super art while simultaneously being worse than super into parry because of how blue nocturne has recovery while parry isn't even a commitment.
I'd like to see the frame breakdown of parrying. Because you can't spam parry, IIRC, and stuff that is actually zero commitment you can basically always have active.
I garou it’s not terrible because multi hitting moves eat inputs a little when blocking, even when parrying, this allows some sneaky mixups that freeman can get out of by parrying into counter super. It’s putting the “situational” in situational merit but it still has merit
One thing I would love to see, since I see it in the comments a lot, maybe in future videos you could speculate on what could’ve been done to improve the balance on things?
The comparison with Daimon’s counter super really goes to show that, as good as 3rd Strike is, it’s still an old ass fighting game and newer games like KoF XIII are able to make certain design choices better than it with the benefit of hindsight.
BYARRGH NEW BAD BALANCE BIDEO. BANK BEW BAFAEL. 1:08 That's a nice example but I think a better example would be Iori's exceed from SvC Chaos in which many Street Fighter characters are featured as well. Iori's exceed is the only counter-exceed move in the game and it happens post-freeze but it's one of the best exceeds in the game. The reason for that is that it has no start-up (1 frame?) and almost "absorbs" nearby attacks with a weirdly large "hurtbox". It's hard to explain exactly but it's really good and should be the template for Street Fighter "post-flash" counters.
I think from all the counters I've seen in fighting games, to be good they have to counter almost if not everything (Or at the very least have immunity to projectiles like Jiren's Shock Tornado), have frame 1 start-up, function in a way that beats safe jumps, have no super flash if the counter is a super, and allow the follow-up attack to fully connect regardless of the opponents position. Any less than that will make people not want to use it even if they don't have a DP.
So as far as counter-supers go, I've seen one game do a very good job about it. Urban Legend in Limbo (and the psudo-sequel, Antimony of Common Flowers, which was basically the same game but with assists and a few extra characters, and without the weird orb gimmick). Only one character has a counter-super: Byakuren. It's actually even more pronounced than Blue Nocturne, having a super-freeze AND requiring you to declare your intent to use it before use. However, another one of her mechanics interacts with it. Byakuren can throw some kind of throwing weapon (I can't honestly tell what it is) as her basic bullet attacks. If they hit or are deflected by an enemy projectile, they bounce upwards and can be caught by Byakuren. If she catches one, her next use of that attack throws 2. However, if she catches one while using the counter-super, it goes off even if the opponent did not hit you. And since the counter-super is a big honkin laser blast, it can do a great job as a combo ender if you know a good enough setup.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
I actually play a lot of Remy, and frankly I wouldn't say he's under balanced he's just not a good fit for SF3. I believe Big Yellow said "He's in the wrong game." I agree, his sonic booms for zoning don't really work when you can have them parried and give your opponent meter. I tend to use his okay buttons baiting jump ins for flash kicks, but then again parrying also stops this when they empty jump. He's awkward to play in this game, though I enjoy his playstyle.
Sometimes things in a game don't work and they just never mess with it again after a game version breaks it or if no one pushes on it. Joe's ranbu drops in kof vs the kyokugen characters comes to mind. Plus a counter super in a game with generic parries is DOA.
Please make a bad balance on Remy one day. The rest of the commonly known low tiers have obvious weaknesses i.e. twelve's low damage, Hugo's mobility etc.
Amazingly comprehensive video, only no talk of how the super is “unlocked” with mastery a of red parry. But again abysmally situational cuz a blocked super is generally ur only route on the entire cast. You’ll probably just throw a boom then super cancel fucking yourself it if you press kick a tad early
I really hope that if SF6 has counter supers they get rid of the super freeze, counter supers are actually really cool, but I still don't understand why Capcom wanted the super freeze on both SF3 and SF4 only to drop counter supers in SFV.
Image if blue nocturne was a super Remy always had access to despite which super art he chose. That way people will have to be more careful when approaching him either watching for an offensive super or a counter.
what if SAIII was replaced with a slowly advancing boom that was like an aegis or a booger that he could do unblockables with, would Remy work better that way?
This would almost definitely change Remy into a pressure loop character even if it costed a ton of bar. Would also create a really interesting use of meter between defensive EX booms or an offensive super boom
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
Remy’s biggest problem is his charge inputs. If he had the exact same moves but as motions he’d actually have some of the best damage in the game with incredible space control tools. Which tas videos show is possible already but not humanly due to the charge partitioning being impossible for people. It’s impressive how good Remy theoretically is, and is low tier primarily because of his inputs completely shackling how good his kit could be.
@@Neogears1312 I mean, that is the point of charge motions. The moves themselves are flat better than most comparable moves in the game because the motion is inherently limiting them in was a 236 motion isn’t
Yo baf I am hoping to start a series soon inspired by your Bad Balance series as well as Big Yellow and his FGG series. I'd love your opinion on it when it comes out.
This move almost seems like it exists just to fill out Remy's movelist because he needed a third super so, in an effort not to undermine his character, they gave him a third super that is completely irrelevant compared to his other options because those already work well enough for him. Things like a short, single stock super meter is evidence of this when his other supers have longer meters with two stocks. They recognize how practical his EX moves are and how useful his first two supers are so they are literally dissuading players from bothering with his third super, which provides none of these benefits.
@@AmeriKameVictor the funniest part is that Capcom even gave him a winquote that pokes fun at how *absurd* they made him: "Cheap? Don't you know how much I paid for this cap?"
Honestly, the biggest issue with it is just that parrying does the exact same thing for better reward with lower risk. Counter supers are innately redundant in a game with universal parry.
Remy funny enough one a French national a couple years ago. So by all accounts; remy is viable. I think he’s needlessly shackled by being a charge character but there’s no denying you can get mileage out of him. He’s just got some glaring weaknesses
Sometimes you’ll blue nocturne something and get punished for it. Is you BN the 1st hit of Shin Sho, the rest of the super will connect before you can start the counter flurry.
Playing around with superflash is something that Capcom seems not to like. In the other camp, you have BlazBlue's Terumi, who has two supers with identical startup and superflash animations, except one is a high and one is a low.
If Remy somehow returns in sf6, I think blue nocturne would actually be pretty decent. You'll always have access to it and with the increased emphasis on armor and slow attacks a counter like this would see at least some use.
I can understand why Baf made a video on Remy's Blue Nocturne and not Remy himself. Some people say he sucks, but trust me when I say this, he is nowhere near Sean and Twelve level of bad. What really screws Remy over non other than Parry, since he is a Guile imitation being a zoner, having a projectile as your main tool kinda sucks in this game since people can tap forward as soon as it's gonna hit pretty easily. He is an okay character, but in the wrong game. If he were to be in any other Street Fighter game, he would definitely do way better.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
Yeah he’s one a national before so by all accounts he’s viable even as a low tier. Being a motion character is all he’d need actually. Tas remy gets absurdly good damage with actually good meter less zoning in a game with parries. It’s only impossible because humans can’t execute the charge partitioning needed to do them. But if they were just QC’s and SRK inputs he’d be honestly about as good as ken with his crap lows holding him back from being any higher.
@@Neogears1312 There is the technique that allows Remy to "cook" his charge motions he can do crazy zoning with it, meaning that you can barrage the opponent with sonic booms as long as you mix the lows with the high, not that difficult once you get the timing. And this is Vanilla Remy.
Remy NEEDS a second chance. I want him in SF6 so bad because he’s only been in 1 singular game. That’s not fair. If he comes back they should completely redesign his gameplay. Give him some installs or something, some new moves too. Make Blue Nocturne his CA and completely make it look different. He’s deserves a second chance imo. I love Remy ngl I always use him in this game. Would love to see him updated. Would be so cool.
It literally should be any ex special move or like something that can be a launcher or attack command with a cancel. I think Capcom vastly overestimated his ability to frame trap
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8. The way parries work in 3S makes parry supers kinda redundant
Well technically sa3 can cover Parries for low and high, since it hits things like Dudley sweep as well, but yeah, they gotta commit
I mean you could say the same thing as Dudley Cross Counter, but that's still useful.
The most badass sounding things are ALWAYS cursed to be ass
I'm glad someone agrees. Blue Nocturne is one of my favorite super art names.
And when it connects feel so good
@@totaldestruction152 Jupiter Thunder is one of the coolest names for anything ever, but you’ll never pick it over Aegis Reflector.
Brutal God Project is not that bad
According to Google, Nocturne means "a short composition of a romantic nature, typically for piano." That's so cool because it's like the parry and then the subsequent hits make a short melody of some sort
"Yet if you hit him, this happens". White flash. Gets hit with an ad 😭
That would be terrifying move
Amazing
@@garvielloken8494 Cyberpunk-themed Fighting Game. One of the characters is a robot with a TV for a head. He has a Raging Demon-style super that shows an in-universe ad. It's meant to be a timer scam super. Bam, great idea.
i think it'd be neat if remy always had blue nocturne regardless of his super selection a la kkz/demon. that way it'd see extremely occasional use in the scenarios in which it's good while not giving up your other supers
Yeah that seems pretty good to me
Concur
The problem is Akuma only has one bar set up for all 3 of his supers. Remy has two great supers but with completely different bar set ups. You’d either make sa1 needlessly worse and unviable because you’re giving it sa2’s length or you’re making sa2 disgustingly good by making it an invincible super with good damage and a great anti air tool with the length of boomerang raid.
@@Neogears1312 Why not keep the bar lengths the same and just have Blue Nocturne have a different cost depending on the super you choose? Blue Nocturne would be cheaper and synergize slightly better with SAI, but you're doing this with the cost of running a super that's a bit less generally useful than SAII (although ig that depends on the matchup). Also I wonder what a hypothetical replacement SAIII could be lol
@@neurotelepath Cold Blue Kick but it goes fullscreen, dodges projectiles, and acts as a low. You can even stock 3 of them for no reason at all
Something you could’ve shown to compare it to Daimon’s Neomax is how with that counter super you can confirm into it. While in HD Mode you can cancel into it from another of his super
Kasumi did something similar in KOF XI
The lesson here is: why have a counter when you can have a reversal?
Cries in sfv kolin main
The only thing I can think of right off the top of my head is that Anji's counter super in GGST will actually beat safe jumps, but I'm not sure trading that for losing to throws (which most metered reversals will cleanly beat) is really all that much of a selling point.
@@schitzie It depende on the game. This kind of counter is really strong in FighterZ were there's a lot of safejumps
@@schitzie it beats safe jumps, but its still incredibly situational, another comparison would be his old options between reversal fuujin and using a move with a guard point. if you try to safe jump one of his guard points, you usually get hit for your troubles.
It was just a matter of time.
This is Bafs favorite SA for sure
He gave it it's own tier in his last super tier list! Clearly his favorite.
Blue Nocturne is such a cool move name that it's a shame it's used on something so situational or useless
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is:
th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
@@TH-camIsAwesomewow amazing
The last point is a really important thing developer's don't always seem to understand. If a game has moves with full invincibilty, a counter is almost always WORSE, because the counter won't come out if the opponent isn't hitting, and fully invincible moves can be used in the same situations and more. It's especially bad when counters don't work against throws and projectiles, while invincible attacks do.
The few edges counters may have is if they trigger grab-like moves that work every time, like in KOF. That means they may work in rare cases that just invincible moves would whiff, and they can counter from any range without falling out. In KOF there are a few anti-air counters that are useful for this reason, when DPs may trade or whiff against some jump arcs, the counter always triggers the hit.
SF has always seemed a bit strange to me how for a lot of supers the victims can just fall out, whereas in KOF very few supers do that, and most attack barrages are basically a cinematic that's guaranteed if the first hit connects without trading.
i think counters like Jiren's (DBFZ) counter are a great design for that weakness. yes, it wont trigger unless you hit him (Or throw) but you can change how long its active to throw off the opponents punish. if you compare that to a standard Dp it has fair balance of pros and cons.
@@internetmovieguy Which is a bit funny and ironic given that Jiren's counter was initially *extremely* bad apparently before it finally got buffed/fixed within the past year. I think the same applies for Videl's dodge move, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one still sucked.
@@MusicoftheDamned now it counters anything
Another thing is utility. Rock Howard gets a counter and an invincible dp. You’d question why use the counter except the counters have a lot of utility behind them. They build meter really well on whiff and have next to no recovery on a generally turtly character. On counter hit they cause a spin which can let you combo after for extra damage and this is hit confirmable because when it’s a normal hit it hard knockdown for oki. And lastly Rocks DP is a charge motion. This adds some dichotomy to them as the need for charge makes it so you can’t use it for a panic move but it can be used offensively as well.
@@MusicoftheDamned Videl's dodge is still awful. To simplify the weakness it; you can stagger pressure her without any risk because unlike reflect it wont push the opponent away.
God I love Remy. I hope he comes back someday. He looks really and his normals look great.
He does look really
My boy looking really rn
Sheesh he's really
that hair too, thats just really 👌👌🥶
Another point I'm surprised you didn't cover is parries are a universal counter, why would you use a counter that costs meter and has super flash when you have one available in parry? Yes you need to guess high or low on oki but it's still significantly less risky than using a counter super that has a guaranteed punish if you bait it.
Chimps spotted 👀
Weirdly, Remy looks very similar to Freeman from Garou, who also has a counter super. Again, Freeman’s is way better because it doesn’t have a super flash. SNK had that figured out a while ago.
A common stance I make with garou is it figured out everything that capcom spent three games messing up with the 3 series in their first attempt.
On Guilty Gear, there are 2 major counter super exist, both don't have super flash/freeze on startup but activated on confirmed parry. Baiken counter super accessed by inputting the super on her sword parry animation on block (S+H) which is very difficult but technically a reactive super, while Anji counter just give tinge of sound effects upon activation which most of the time its too late to react to the super.
EDIT: After re-watching, I realized another factor. Anji counter super on Strive has 2 possible followup. There are maximum vertical and horizontal distance on initiating effects to determine the followup, within the effective vertical distance (IAD for example) the animation will lock on until completion, when the attack came outside of the effective vertical and horizontal distance, it will turn into whiff punishable attack with decent reach to punish half screen distance at best but not much on upper hitbox.
Freeman's counter super is actually laughably bad and not quite far from Remy's super lol
Skullgirls' valentine also don't super flash unless the counter goes off.
@@NoirLouisStream since you brought up Guilty Gear, I remember Hakumen's counter super in BlazBlue Calamity Trigger used to have this super flash/freeze during startup. they changed it to happen during parry confirms in second installment of BB and onwards, but they kept he big red circle that signifies it being counter super (as opposed to the smaller white circles on his normal counter moves)
Huh, funny this came out with the exact same topic as the Fighting Game Garbage. That series was inspired by Bad Balance as far as I know. Comes full circle.
The FGG episode on Remy and Blue Nocturne was 2 months ago, and Baf was bound to end up covering it at some point.
@@whirl3690 I said topic, not time.
Huh. How bout that
I thought this video looked familiar. Its only natural those series would see some overlap
Hey, does somebody know what happend to big yellow's remy video? I can't find it
1:17 "But if you hit him, this happens"
*AD*
Diabolical
Genuine Fear
Posted this elsewhere but thought it was interesting enough for a discussion on the issues with counters; they often lack the utility needed to validate using these over a dp in sf. Sf counters tend to be terrible because they’re incredibly limited.
In garou, Rock Howard gets a counter and an invincible dp. You’d question why use the counter when the dp has more going for it on account of it not needing you’re opponent to attack to make it work, except the counters have a lot of utility behind them. They build meter really well on whiff for a character that really wants meter., and have next to no recovery on a generally turtly character.
On counter hit they cause a spin which can let you combo after for extra damage on a character with bad damage and this is hit confirmable because when it’s a normal hit it hard knockdown for oki.
And lastly Rocks DP is a charge motion. This adds some dichotomy to them as the need for charge makes it so you can’t use it for a panic move but it can be used offensively as well.
Rock has tons of reasons to use his counters despite the overlap because there’s situational merit to using it over a dp in a situation. In street fighter who would ever use cross counter even ignoring parries? You could either take damage and maybe hit a jump in, or land a dp that’s fully invincible. Why pick ultra 2 with Fei long? Everything you’d possibly want to choose two for sans animations available in his ultra 1. And he still has a dp for that sort of issue anyway. These options are completely skewed.
I think Kolin is the first SF character to have a meaningful counter because of its frames, since it starts at 2 frames and most pressure in SFV is based around 3 frame moves (DPs included), so it actually has an edge over certain DPs when it comes to disrespecting pressure if you have the right read, all while doing quite a bit of damage, it also makes your opponent pressure sub optimally, making the match go back to neutral, which is where she shines anyway.
Gill's parry works very similar to this as well, heck, even Ryu has a somewhat useful parry since it let's him navigate through fireballs with ease, but that's not really a counter in the mechanical sense
Everyone: "Blue Nocturne is the worst super in 3s"
Bafael: "But wait, there's more!"
whats funny is that im pretty sure that blue nocturne actually uses sprites where remy does a donkey kick that he doesnt use anywhere else in his moveset, so this super might just only exist to only use said sprites which if true would be a hilarious testament to how little thought this super got
its probable that this isnt true at all but its fun to think about LOL
One time I played against my little brother and he picked SAIII Remy cause it reminded him of our favorite game Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne and he instantly regret it
You already kind of should regret picking remy
Yo SMT fan nice.
now i have some isamu and remy crossbreed in my head
Can we get SFA3 Rainbow Mika??!! I'd love to see that episode. Having watched a bunch of your streams I loved what you said in your super art tier list about this super too.
Yooo I 2nd this
Third this
That's a good piece of fg history
Yeah i heard she sucked but no real reason why
I thought Alpha R Mika was so much more fun than SFV R Mika, but was disappointed to hear she's bad.
It’s kinda like Xrd Axl where its literal only edge over just DPing is that it does more meterless damage when you land it, but at least Axl gets to have both instead of just picking the better one literally every match
Axl's counter also counters supers. It will counter literally everything . But only on frame 4 onwards. DP is invincible on startup, but will die to armor or moves that leave multiple active frames on-screen. Or other invincible supers.
@@WHATISUTUBE Armor is extremely rare in GG though, I think Hammerfall and Leo 6P are the only things with armor in the game, and betting for someone to do a random super in pressure is really just praying you’re playing someone who actually doesn’t know how to do anything but mash. The only other real advantage counter has is that it can hit from way farther away due to its nature as a counter, but I guess Blue Nocturne also has that benefit too
@@NeoBoneGirl Counters benefit of catching moves from further away shines as an alternative to dps in a game where everyone has midscreen pokes. Or at least, moves that are outside of dps range.
Lol that clip of Makoto grabbing Remy out of parry super is hilarious for some reason
Hakumen's Yukikaze was 'trash' in Calamity Trigger because it was a counter super that didn't counter lows, but it still synergised with his meter-over-time mechanic by making your opponent scared to hit buttons, caught projectiles, and had a fully-invincible unblockable followup attack that went fullscreen instantly, so unless your opponent was high in the sky they'd get tagged. Not to mention the freeze only activated when you hit him and lasted just enough time for your opponent to regret their life choices.
I didn't realise quite how bad counter supers could be. I mean damn.
Calamity Trigger Hakumen's counters had way too small of a window to hit. Mostly why they were trash.
Then there's Terumi's counter, which would sometimes not even work against the attacks that it's supposed to counter.
Big yellow: *who are you?*
Bafeal: *I'm you but I stream more*
I’m you but original
How about "Bad Balace: MvC2"?
Not just a particular character. The whole game, really...
“How can you say something so controversial yet so brave”
@@Random-yg1fi what controversy? MVC2 is exquisite kusoge incarnate. Glitches up the wazoo, horrible balancing. It's a product of the times, but it would be treated like Kyanta 2 or Dong Dong Never Die if it released any time after.
@@HellecticMojo chill bro I’m quoting a meme. No need to throw your thesis at me on TH-cam of all places
@@Random-yg1fi I didn't throw you a thesis. I wrote a single paragraph.
@@Random-yg1fi that's like 5 sentences
But at least his hair is God Tier.
This is why SNK's supers are better you still get complete hits even if the opponent is in mid-air and Freeman actually just walks towards you when he does he counter super and Daimon's counter super can be used in HD combos though it gives 2 hits only.
Btw, it's a great video.
I like how this works in universe: "Instead of just attacking my opponent when they try to do something, I'll let them try to hit me, block it, then attack"
Ironically, the end result is the same in game...
Cooler in DBFZ has a counter super. It works on everything in the game except grabs and will always connect because Cooler will teleport to his opponent and it freezes them. What's also important about it is that in a game where every super freezes the screen and will zoom in on the character, Cooler's counter doesn't do that when he uses it only if he lands the counter.
I deeply love these videos Baf, even the shorter ones. Your level of knowledge and skill in explaining things in a clear and concise way is fantastic, and makes you one of those rare quality content creators on youtube.
I know you've mentioned you're a little intimidated by the series blowing up, but don't let that shape what you want to do too much. Just keep being you.
It's not just the Universal Overheads that have the mid-air locking issue - a lot of reactable moves that this would work well against are considered airborne. Shoto tatsus, Yun's dash punch, Elena's Rhino Horn, Remy's divekick, Sean's Wheel Kick and Hugo's dropkick/butt shoot/leaping headbutt are some moves that fall under this.
Also some moves just blow through it entirely. Urien headbutt, Yun's bicycle kicks and Ibuki's neckbreaker slide are moves that blow throw it, I'm sure there's plenty of other moves that do. It's so bad even when you guess right.
The segment on counter supers having a freeze or not was eye opening,
I always wondered why some games had better counter supers than others, but couldn't quite figure out why.
Thanks for pointing that out to me Baf
Bad Balance is the best FGC content in a long time
Remy is a SF Alpha character accidentally inserted into SF3.
Blue nocturne:
- When you start playing the game: "I'm not picking that super because I'm really bad."
- When you are an expert at the game: "I'm not picking that super because it's really bad."
Something that would make this super significantly better is if it was available in his other Super Arts like a Raging Demon. I wonder what would replace it as SA3 tho, maybe the command grab version that is in 4rd Strike?
imagine being a zoning character in a game with a parry mechanic
Smash Ultimate says hello
Sakurai for the love of god buff parry
@@SparkyForce I play both Richter and Ken and almost never use parry as Richter because what is the point if I'm always going to use up special out of shield? If I parry with Ken, I get access to proximity heavy jab which is almost always my max damage punish. For how bad parry is in Ultimate, it's really only useful on Ken in my opinion
@@SparkyForce also isn't parrying in Smash Ultimate actually good for Zoners? Powershielding used to reflect projectiles but parrying doesn't iirc
@@shanerpressley Hard agree. Parrying with shotos or characters with other fast grounded buttons is good. Parrying projectiles on the other hand isn't worth it half the time lol.
@@abbacchio2502 Yeah parry is good for zoners in the sense that it's not particularly effective against them. The original comment was saying that zoners tend to suffer in games with parries, Ultimate is a great example of that not being the case since the parry is ass.
1:03
That never made sense to me, putting a freeze on a counter, which is supposed to be unexpected.
ALL Capcom fighting games with counters have that issue. Deadpool’s 4th-Wall Crisis and Taskmaster’s Aegis Counter from UMVC3 stand out to me.
Imagine if Smash Bros had Counter Final Smashes.
And the idea of selecting a counter and telegraphing it to your opponent is the dressing on the dirt pile.
Big yellow and bafael
*2 spider man pointing at each other*
1:20 I'm sorry but godDAMN, Daimon's super is so godlike. IKEZO
Gives me Evo 2017 flashbacks when ET used it to win Kof 14 Evo Tournament.
1:18 "if you hit him this happens" and right when that was said a samsung phone ad qued in with trumpet music blew my mind for a second. Perfect timing and I just started laughing.
Counter supers with super freeze have a glorified “kick me” sign on them
One time I discovered that I can parry Elenas first hit of SA2 and immediately use blue nocturne to counter it
If only it locked in on aerial opponents similar to Ryu’s VT2 parry in SFV, it might have a use against dive kick characters
Maybe it's so obvious that nobody mentions it but, on top of everything else, a counter super in a game where parry is an universal mechanic that also acts as a confirm is totally redundant and pointless, basically wasting a super art while simultaneously being worse than super into parry because of how blue nocturne has recovery while parry isn't even a commitment.
I'd like to see the frame breakdown of parrying.
Because you can't spam parry, IIRC, and stuff that is actually zero commitment you can basically always have active.
I garou it’s not terrible because multi hitting moves eat inputs a little when blocking, even when parrying, this allows some sneaky mixups that freeman can get out of by parrying into counter super. It’s putting the “situational” in situational merit but it still has merit
Who car... Nah I won't lol. This was good
damn that was quick
One thing I would love to see, since I see it in the comments a lot, maybe in future videos you could speculate on what could’ve been done to improve the balance on things?
The comparison with Daimon’s counter super really goes to show that, as good as 3rd Strike is, it’s still an old ass fighting game and newer games like KoF XIII are able to make certain design choices better than it with the benefit of hindsight.
Honestly, I feel like the character has potential and I hope that they bring him back much improved like they did with Elena in SF4
BYARRGH NEW BAD BALANCE BIDEO. BANK BEW BAFAEL.
1:08 That's a nice example but I think a better example would be Iori's exceed from SvC Chaos in which many Street Fighter characters are featured as well. Iori's exceed is the only counter-exceed move in the game and it happens post-freeze but it's one of the best exceeds in the game. The reason for that is that it has no start-up (1 frame?) and almost "absorbs" nearby attacks with a weirdly large "hurtbox". It's hard to explain exactly but it's really good and should be the template for Street Fighter "post-flash" counters.
Forgot that one
Heck, FORGOT THAT GAME
XD
This series is so much fun. Keep it up, Baf!
Every time Bafael uploads its like Christmas.
I think from all the counters I've seen in fighting games, to be good they have to counter almost if not everything (Or at the very least have immunity to projectiles like Jiren's Shock Tornado), have frame 1 start-up, function in a way that beats safe jumps, have no super flash if the counter is a super, and allow the follow-up attack to fully connect regardless of the opponents position. Any less than that will make people not want to use it even if they don't have a DP.
Then you have Avalon in Type Lumina.
So smash ultimate counter
Kolin's counter can be useful for very specific punishes
2:13 I don't know why but this cracked me up so bad
So as far as counter-supers go, I've seen one game do a very good job about it. Urban Legend in Limbo (and the psudo-sequel, Antimony of Common Flowers, which was basically the same game but with assists and a few extra characters, and without the weird orb gimmick). Only one character has a counter-super: Byakuren. It's actually even more pronounced than Blue Nocturne, having a super-freeze AND requiring you to declare your intent to use it before use. However, another one of her mechanics interacts with it. Byakuren can throw some kind of throwing weapon (I can't honestly tell what it is) as her basic bullet attacks. If they hit or are deflected by an enemy projectile, they bounce upwards and can be caught by Byakuren. If she catches one, her next use of that attack throws 2. However, if she catches one while using the counter-super, it goes off even if the opponent did not hit you. And since the counter-super is a big honkin laser blast, it can do a great job as a combo ender if you know a good enough setup.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
As a byakuren main i had no idea you could do that holy shit. I usually just use the teleport dagger super
I actually play a lot of Remy, and frankly I wouldn't say he's under balanced he's just not a good fit for SF3. I believe Big Yellow said "He's in the wrong game." I agree, his sonic booms for zoning don't really work when you can have them parried and give your opponent meter. I tend to use his okay buttons baiting jump ins for flash kicks, but then again parrying also stops this when they empty jump. He's awkward to play in this game, though I enjoy his playstyle.
Remy.
Sometimes things in a game don't work and they just never mess with it again after a game version breaks it or if no one pushes on it. Joe's ranbu drops in kof vs the kyokugen characters comes to mind. Plus a counter super in a game with generic parries is DOA.
Please make a bad balance on Remy one day. The rest of the commonly known low tiers have obvious weaknesses i.e. twelve's low damage, Hugo's mobility etc.
Parrying first hit of a multi hit attack into blue nocturne looks soooo sick tho
Amazingly comprehensive video, only no talk of how the super is “unlocked” with mastery a of red parry. But again abysmally situational cuz a blocked super is generally ur only route on the entire cast. You’ll probably just throw a boom then super cancel fucking yourself it if you press kick a tad early
He did cover that near the end dude 👍🏼
Talked about muti hitting moves but didn’t say red parry
I really hope that if SF6 has counter supers they get rid of the super freeze, counter supers are actually really cool, but I still don't understand why Capcom wanted the super freeze on both SF3 and SF4 only to drop counter supers in SFV.
Image if blue nocturne was a super Remy always had access to despite which super art he chose. That way people will have to be more careful when approaching him either watching for an offensive super or a counter.
It's so sad that this move sucks since it looks so cool and fits my own playstyle so perfectly.
1:25 YES
Fatal Fury and early KOF games HAD NO SUPER FREEZE
IT IS NOT NECESSARY!
what if SAIII was replaced with a slowly advancing boom that was like an aegis or a booger that he could do unblockables with, would Remy work better that way?
Anything would work better
This would almost definitely change Remy into a pressure loop character even if it costed a ton of bar. Would also create a really interesting use of meter between defensive EX booms or an offensive super boom
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
Remy’s biggest problem is his charge inputs. If he had the exact same moves but as motions he’d actually have some of the best damage in the game with incredible space control tools. Which tas videos show is possible already but not humanly due to the charge partitioning being impossible for people. It’s impressive how good Remy theoretically is, and is low tier primarily because of his inputs completely shackling how good his kit could be.
@@Neogears1312 I mean, that is the point of charge motions. The moves themselves are flat better than most comparable moves in the game because the motion is inherently limiting them in was a 236 motion isn’t
Love this content.
Keep up the great analysis.
Yo baf I am hoping to start a series soon inspired by your Bad Balance series as well as Big Yellow and his FGG series. I'd love your opinion on it when it comes out.
ok link me
@@Bafael will do
I completely forgot Remy even HAD this super lol
Blue Nocturne is for baiting parries and punish by buffering.
bafael never misses
If they re-balanced this game everyone would immediately flock to it which is sadly the reason they will not re-balance it.
This move almost seems like it exists just to fill out Remy's movelist because he needed a third super so, in an effort not to undermine his character, they gave him a third super that is completely irrelevant compared to his other options because those already work well enough for him. Things like a short, single stock super meter is evidence of this when his other supers have longer meters with two stocks. They recognize how practical his EX moves are and how useful his first two supers are so they are literally dissuading players from bothering with his third super, which provides none of these benefits.
Could there be a bad balance on Æ Yun?
I'd second this, I hear horror stories of AE twins but I came into sf4 in 2012
@@AmeriKameVictor the funniest part is that Capcom even gave him a winquote that pokes fun at how *absurd* they made him:
"Cheap? Don't you know how much I paid for this cap?"
Think of how much better he would be if this was just his shippu. And if you miss the confirm the counter comes out
Honestly, the biggest issue with it is just that parrying does the exact same thing for better reward with lower risk.
Counter supers are innately redundant in a game with universal parry.
Remy funny enough one a French national a couple years ago. So by all accounts; remy is viable. I think he’s needlessly shackled by being a charge character but there’s no denying you can get mileage out of him. He’s just got some glaring weaknesses
wtf this came out in July 2021, i never saw it until now.
Great video Baf. Just a quick question if you have the time, when you play on pad do you use the thumbstick or the D-Pad?
Dpad
I've spent years assuming I understood why this super was bad. It turns out, I was _naive._
He should have made me dinner
Looking forward to the Vanilla 4 Sagat episode.
Sometimes you’ll blue nocturne something and get punished for it. Is you BN the 1st hit of Shin Sho, the rest of the super will connect before you can start the counter flurry.
I wouldn’t mind if they took another shot at Remy in the future. I think he could potentially be cool.
We back to the big time Bois
Idea for the way this super should work: parry, then do an EX input during the parry freeze
thx for taking recs dude
Playing around with superflash is something that Capcom seems not to like. In the other camp, you have BlazBlue's Terumi, who has two supers with identical startup and superflash animations, except one is a high and one is a low.
90% of the time it’s gonna be the high though
they should bring Remy back, cool design
If Remy somehow returns in sf6, I think blue nocturne would actually be pretty decent. You'll always have access to it and with the increased emphasis on armor and slow attacks a counter like this would see at least some use.
They should make him come back. It would be interesting.
if remy was in sf4 i wanted his super to be blue nocturne and his U1 And U2 to be light of justice and the other one
thats so funny. that the few times SC3 is strong SC2 can do the same thing but also have more utility. good shit
I can understand why Baf made a video on Remy's Blue Nocturne and not Remy himself. Some people say he sucks, but trust me when I say this, he is nowhere near Sean and Twelve level of bad. What really screws Remy over non other than Parry, since he is a Guile imitation being a zoner, having a projectile as your main tool kinda sucks in this game since people can tap forward as soon as it's gonna hit pretty easily. He is an okay character, but in the wrong game. If he were to be in any other Street Fighter game, he would definitely do way better.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: th-cam.com/video/B1j5k6ZtWmo/w-d-xo.html
Yeah he’s one a national before so by all accounts he’s viable even as a low tier. Being a motion character is all he’d need actually. Tas remy gets absurdly good damage with actually good meter less zoning in a game with parries. It’s only impossible because humans can’t execute the charge partitioning needed to do them. But if they were just QC’s and SRK inputs he’d be honestly about as good as ken with his crap lows holding him back from being any higher.
@@Neogears1312 There is the technique that allows Remy to "cook" his charge motions he can do crazy zoning with it, meaning that you can barrage the opponent with sonic booms as long as you mix the lows with the high, not that difficult once you get the timing.
And this is Vanilla Remy.
SA3s in this game happen to be hit or miss huh... Its either trash, or arguably the best in the game *cough cough Aegis Reflector cough cough*
Great stuff as always Baf
Do a video for Gill (if you haven't so far) just for fun
some Guilty Gear characters have the mechanic of parry super like you described. Hope you check out Strive!
Remy NEEDS a second chance. I want him in SF6 so bad because he’s only been in 1 singular game. That’s not fair. If he comes back they should completely redesign his gameplay. Give him some installs or something, some new moves too. Make Blue Nocturne his CA and completely make it look different. He’s deserves a second chance imo.
I love Remy ngl I always use him in this game. Would love to see him updated. Would be so cool.
It literally should be any ex special move or like something that can be a launcher or attack command with a cancel.
I think Capcom vastly overestimated his ability to frame trap
Great video Baf keep em coming