ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- 14:04 - Special move recap ends
It might still be good to watch the special move recap cuz I go over bad things about each of the specials.
I'm not putting music in the background, I hate choosing songs and adjusting the volume and I don't wanna catch a random copyright strike. If you want music then put on your own jams in another tab.
• USFIV: Dee Jay Balance... Link to his patch notes video from Ultra.
The SF6 dev team did such a good job retooling DeeJay. Learning that Machine Gun Upper and Sobat Kick were charge moves is so baffling when they work so well as motion moves in 6. And the feints from his fireball, upkicks, sobat, and sway actually tie in the idea that he’s a tricky character that wants to learn the opponents rhythm to find openings. Coming back to this character before 6 might as well be an entirely different character.
He might as well be as new character, at least mechanically, since _SF6_ is basically the first time that Dee Jay has a) ever been in the base roster and b) ever seen any real intentional changes (outsde of his Omega _USF4_ form that's apparently a prototype _SF5_ Nash) to his move set rather than random and incoherent additions usually in the form of supers (that often drop hits if not point blank). It's refreshingly nice and at least 10 years overdue even as some previously not a fan of the character (in part because it seemed clear Capcom didn't give a damn about him before now unfortunately).
They also made his visual design much more thematic
Yeah dee Jay looks oddly menacing in his sf4 design, whereas in sf6 he comes off a lot more likeable. I'm not sure if he was meant to be a villain type but he always looked scary to me as a kid 😅
I really want ibuki in sf6 Capcom pls.
@@SwedishSword Pretty funny that you mention him looking like a villain. The only time Dee Jay ever was that was in "so bad it's good" _Street Figher: The Movie_ where he's basically Dee Jay in name only and worked for Shadaloo...and still got more character development than he ever got until _SF6_ as a whole outside like the also "so bad it's good" American _Street Fighter_ cartoon on USA Network where he's still a minor character. It was a bit sad really, to be honest.
@@SwedishSwordI think Rose’s winquote against Deejay has her mention that she’s frightened by his smile.
You know your character is well-balanced when you react to a jump-in and still lose the exchange
That sounds like SF5 in general
Here after they nerfed one of the only consistent antiair normals in SF6 😭
@@EvilPineapplJP player detected (I am one as well)
@@AramesiaToken Manon and Marisa, that's how I know JP's 2HP is how they all should have been.
@@Demon_Cursesay you’re ass wihout saying you’re ass.
I will never understand what kind of drug fuelled idiocy made them make a character based on dancing a charge character
At least they fixed him in sf6
Dee Jay's greatest strength, is his incredible voice.
HAAY!
You truly are the mvp
I believe the english voice actor waa the guy who played Juwanna Man if anyone remembers that old flick lol
@@tonyelectionfraud669 That cannot be! Now I need to look that up. I know he was Dee Jay in the live action movie.
GET LOST IN DA BEAT
As someone who doesn't even play Street Fighter games, I absolutely adore your analytical style of content. It's in-depth, well researched and structured, and extremely informative. Definitely deserving of more subscribers, for sure.
That's up to the people who share my videos lol
Agreed. Baf, do you work for Capcom? If not, you should!
@@brandonsellers1076 tell that to them lol. But these videos where I criticize their balance decisions probably aren't doing me any favors.
@@Bafael Funny, I think these vids are good feedback.
@Ben McConnon I just enjoy the commentary and in-depth analytical style that Baf has, it's the kind of thing that I love watching
i had no idea the usf4 devs were a new team but now everything makes sense
It makes sense considering that SFV was already in development so the 'A' team would have been working on that.
That's because it's not true. There were two balance teams, the old team balanced the old characters and the new team just balanced the five new characters. Capcom didn't ask for community input because they were new to the job, they asked because it's good PR.
@@motmontheinternet "I say without a source"
Bad Balance: Chun Li in 3rd Strike (Too good)
Yes. And yes please
He should also put a thumbnail clickbait that says "SHE ALONE KILLED THIRD STRIKE"
Literally super woman
😌
that or just explaining the properties of yun's genijin, sa1/2 yun is quite a balanced character but geijin's ease of accessibility woth hit confirms into it like his 4 hit target combo, or the ridiculously short super bar, that you can whiff cmp into combined with unseen techiques that make it even more overpowered ie kara palms. Funny how a lot of the balance with both chun and yun involves a REALLY good super with good confirms (cmk) good bar, and unseen tech (SJC for midair followups), and whiffing normals (bhp?/bmp?)
That's incredible. They can't just give him one true buff. I've never heard of a situation like that. A dev team in such denial that a character is low-tier, but aware enough to fix his glaring flaws for a price.
Mk 11 shao khan and mileena
@@kujo4388 I'd say buffing Shao's damage was kind of enough to make him viable. He's still underwhealming but he hits like a freight train and has amazing armor breakers without spending too much resource.
@@glawrk2861more damage was not enough imo.
I made the horrible decision to use Deejay over Guile because I wanted to "rush down" a bit more and not be so lame with Guile in a game already so defensive.... This video gave me a whole bunch of dreadful flashbacks :(
Based on my comment... I actually perceived the LIKE from Bafael as Cruel 😅🤣
Did you end up maining guile? Honestly, even if guile seems lame, I LOVE seeing people play him.
@@blueyandicy I played Guile since SF2, I wanted a change of phase in SF4 using a character that could also rush down, even if he wasn't the best at neither, but it would be more dinamic to switch styles. In the end just as bafael put it, he is among the worst at everything and therefore, mediocre at best...
I had DJ in my roster, but my true main was Makoto, followed by Hugo or Abel, but I could also use Claw, Honda, and Guille
Was "dreadful" a deliberate pun? :)
@@terrysalt It came out naturally at first, but noticed it when I toom look at the message before saving
DeeJay does have one good quality; he has almost the same tools as Guile and M. Bison, but at the same time.
It's always been wild to me though, Dictator can get full cinematic U1 vs Juri dive kick, but DeeJay can't even punish a Hadouken if the stars don't align for him.
I jump and do medium kick in the air, has great reach and it leads to foreward medium punch on hit stun. Deejay makes up for his difficult to utilize specials with really good normals. What i noticed is he relies on true combos, and relies heavily on deejays better off used last samding fierce kick. Also you can't punish firball unless you jump while ryu is mid animation, which is a big opening, hard to shoryuken when you get hit with a mid range jump heavy kick, which has great reach.
It's sad. He got screwed over by just being a Mashup of what most Charge characters can do (Guile and Bison in particular) but does each thing worse. Why zone with Dee Jay when you can zone better with Guile? Why rushdown when you can do that better with Bison and Balrog and still be using charge motions?
@@ethanhinton4549 Because he's fun
@@taelin-rh3wi based
this is actually maybe my favorite video of yours so far. it so perfectly explains something i've been trying to articulate for years. dee jay is a fascinating character. he's like akuma in that very few situations are outside of his comfort zone, but somehow even when he's never really playing from the back foot, he can never get anything going. he is a rare character who has no way to capitalize on his own advantage situations
Basically Talim in SC6. Well... Okay not quite. She's got more risk but about the same reward. The most recent patch addressed some of this and then all of the lower ranked players started crying about how this was a buff to a broken character. Then all of the pro players were like "hmmm... she might actually be somewhat viable now".
But usually they buff the top tier characters hardest and fuck up the lowest tiers. Much like Capcom.
@@Unethical.Dodgson Talim down players are worse than Astaroth down players.
The 'make some characters OP or bad on purpose because it's more fun to watch' balance decisions of SF4 and MVC3 were infuriating
Except for Dan, he’s cool
@@Bleach_Drinker_7or Phoenix since that’s kinda his point.
A low tier character that was treated strangely by the balance patches... I'd say the SF5 counterpart is Nash.
I maintain that one of the biggest nerfs nash ever got was when they fixed the 8f lag. The actual balance patches themselves have been good and bad for him but the devs still treat him like a top tier when he's just not placing in any events. I think in season 1 he was a mid tier falsely inflated to top tier by people being unable to react to his dashes or overheads due to the input lag. Once that was gone he dropped to mid even before considering the season 2 nerfs which dropped him to low/bottom.
Interesting that Omega Dee Jay is pretty clearly the early early test version of Nash.
@@Bafael So was Infiltration's offline performance with him in season 1 more him than the character? (That wouldn't be unreasonable)
Alex would like a word (says person with Alex avatar ._. )
@@TechnicallyaMoleRat S1 SFV had an inherent 8f of input delay offline
I think Deejay is a great example of a type of bad balance that isn't talked about as often. Devs having no real idea about what they actually want to do with a character.
I think Keits said it best during his interview on the UltraChen show. Your characters should have a target audience. What he meant by that is that characters should have a strong character identity that allows players to play to their personal strengths with the character, and if you do that, balancing for 5-5 doesn't matter nearly as much as balancing so that player and character identity shines through and the game remains fun.
This video is extra funny in hindsight with the glow up Dee Jay got in SF6, it's almost like they heard stuff like "His EX fireball is two hits for no reason, it only makes it worse" and went "Well, guess we better just make it a normal fireball then huh"
the fact that his ex fireball now can just melt through regular fireballs due to universal changes and causes a combo from full screen??? i love it
@@realchezboi Well, if you want to be really honest, I think the EX fireball system changes exist SOLELY because of Dee Jay's Heavy Air Slasher. If it didn't work like that, Dee Jay could literally never lose a fireball war. At worst, you would have to burn EX to go EVEN with him, so he still won.
As an outsider, SF4 Dee Jay seems like a rekka character without a rekka
My biggest frustration is that D.J is strong as hell in the mobile version of Street Fighter 4 !!!
Everything just work as it should and he can even use his ultra 1 after a ex machinegun upper with FULL DAMAGE AND ALL HITS.....
Mobile sf4 is super interesting and I'd love to show the differences someday
@@Bafael It's actually pretty good in my opinion, it has armor break, armor invisibility, focus cancel, ex moves, Ultras and Supers and each character has their normals and unique moves adapted.
@@AuntBibby YES! SFIV making a comeback on switch would be AWESOME
@@Bafael The 3DS one is really strange, too.
@@Budster650 That’s a funny case.
The 3DS has the Touch Screen, which is used for shortcuts (throw, focus, 3p, 3k).
This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't because of the LITE control scheme that instead shortcuts MOVEMENTS and it’s broken as f when using charge motions, because they don’t take charge into consideration. Guile can literally throw Sonic Booms while moving forward.
I feel like Dee-Jay has always been an odd duck since SF2. A quick wiki dive tells me that his music motif was an afterthought, rather than a core design, but for someone who is supposed to be all about rhythm he certainly feels very static to play. A part of me was holding out hope that we'd get him in SF5 with a completely re-imagined toolkit, like what they did with Poison, since I feel like he should just... move a lot more, rely less on fireballs to keep the opponent out and more on getting in himself.
As the story goes, originally ssf2 was going to have two fei longs with similar movesets and different heads (similar to Ryu and Ken, and this idea was probably later recycled into Yun and yang), but that idea got scrapped, and Capcom USA designed deejay and his moveset as the replacement. I do have to wonder if him not being designed by the original dev team lead to his exclusion from later games, but I doubt it. After all he's ignored by the fans a lot too. He's just not a super popular character, which is why it took literally years for him to creep up to high tier in sf2 even though he's always been somewhat strong
@@Bafael I feel like both DJ and Fei are relatively unpopular in the fandom at large because their design elements are done better elsewhere.
If you want characters that play like them sf has already got Guile and Yun/Yang and the gimmicks of the Caribbean music lover and the Bruce Lee pastiche are executed much better in other fighting games. Imo Tekken does both archetypes much more justice.
"a quick wiki dive"
I love the word use
@@Bafael Dee Jay feels like an afterthought in every possible way, which is probably why he's so forgettable. He has no cohesion between his character and moveset, or even between moves as you demonstrated in the video. Dude is just a mess.
@@chocobros1 really? Personally I see a lot of people ask for fei and think he's a cool character, there's even a mod that adds him in sfv recently
I was screaming ''come on, do SOMETHING!'' watching this. It felt like there weren't really any plans for DJ even after so many patches.
Deejay's upkicks are, to my knowledge, the only guaranteed answer to Gen's straight down Oga dive kick. No matter what side Gen comes down on, you just do EX-upkicks, hits every time. Gief can't lariat it, his head will get hit first, Bison can teleport, but that's just yielding space. Ryu can try to Tatsu out, but Ken, Sagat, Guile, they all have to gamble with their DPs. Sagat's light Tiger Uppercut has the best chance of hitting but your timing has to be PERFECT. With that said, Gen with ultra 2 nullifies Deejay's fireballs and sobats, which means he loses like half his move list. That is a HARD answer to Deejay, which is sad.
I deeply respect Deejay specialists because they make a limited character work. He's the opposite of Seth, Seth has an answer to EVERYTHING on paper and thus, gotta nerf his HP, damage, etc, etc. Deejay is a solid C in almost every area, with a B and a random A for anti-airs. At least he has 1000HP and 1000 stun. Imagine if he had 950HP and 950 stun. That would be AWFUL.
Was Seth's damage and health the reason why he was so broken in vanilla on top of having everything at once?
@@hazzydahaka13In part. I had to look up his _SF4_ changelog, but I'm pretty sure part was the fact that--among other things I'm probably forgetting--Vanilla Seth could *Ultra while his Sonic Boom was still on screen.* So basically he could murder zone you if you tried to jump his projectile from afar when he had Ultra (I) even more easily than in later versions, which was...unfun even before how good his other zoning was.
"Jamaican me mad with these nerfs"
lol
D.J was a beast before the street fighter 4 era.
how so? mainly an sf noob here if the question is offending
@@waterdog737 In Super Turbo, he has great normals, anti-airs, a deceptive cross-up j.MK and a fairly easy to do touch of death combo. His only real drawback is his fireball recovery isn't all that. But he whips out maracas when he wins, so he's a beast.
The only bad thing about Vanilla DJ is his knee J.LK, you need to put ⬇️ to came out knee, also after in the Arcade edition they put the command ↙️ making more intuitive to poke with J.LK.
@@waterdog737 He could play as a rush down and zooner at the same time, all his supers and normal just works perfectly, his normals would link without any trouble into supers. Unfortunately Capcom destroyed almost everything in SFIV and they let him incomplete.
D.J can't link his light moves into medium or ex supers and the ones he can link.............. Almost every time the move won't link due to the push back or it will magically push your opponent further than it should !!!!!
@@waterdog737 D.J can't use his Ultra 1 after any move properly, the closest you can get is: lp->hp->ex machine gun upper->Ultra 1. Unfortunately just 2 hits of his Ultra 1 gonna link after his machine gun upper and guess what, your guard will be open to your opponent punish you afterwards and about his Ultra 2........ You will need one or three bars and it deals less damage compared with another charge characters like Guile, Chunli and Balrog.
Don’t care, still main him because he is incredibly based
aha based on who aha
@@mogullll Your lack of Rhythm, mon.
-shake shake- Loser! -shake shake-
Dee Jay footsie game is godlike, if you can keep people mid range you gone win... Plus that falling knee is disrespectfully good
@@gabrielspeed5464 he’s still awful lol. He’s one of those characters that could never even sniff a top 8 at a major. His qualities are overshadowed by stupid shit described in the video
I main him and i dont care about nothing, just love salty messages after zooning with him lol.
U play on laptop/pc? Would like some matches
@@tabhou7988 Add me, names blueyandicy. I'm not the best but I'd love to revive the SFIV community :)
@@blueyandicy i got you when I get on bro
@@blueyandicy do you have a discord
It would be cool to see a response video where you go over SF6 DeeJay and how they changed him to suit all the problems he used to have. This has always been one of the most interesting Bad Balance videos to me cause DeeJay is just sort of mediocre and disfunctional. Capcom also did an amazing job at revamping DeeJay for SF6.
Maybe someday but I have my hands full with BnB stuff
Yeah, I was really surprised to see this video didn't come out recently. I thought it would have been a reaction to the huge glow up he had in sf6 but nope. It's still a really comprehensive video on the character though. It would be cool to see a one to one comparison.
What's wild is that this video might have very well been what informed the Dev team to make DJ how he is in 6. Exceptional work.
Having watched this, it seems like a night and day difference from this to Dee Jay's Omega Mode version. Most every character feels better in Omega Mode anyway, I think, but for Dee Jay especially, he feels a lot more fluid and actually fits the rhythmic dancer theme a lot better. Amazing what difference going from charge to command specials makes.
Forces stand.
F O R C E S S T A N D
Best Baf meme
Nice force stand bro
t-thanks capcom.
@@malacara1335 F O R C E S S T A N D
there's a few things i think you didn't touch on (i'm pretty stoned watching this so maybe i just missed it):
-a lot of people erroneously believe knee shot was active til it hit the ground, but that isn't true--it's actually a frame less active than his j.LP. the small hitbox combined with an insufficient active period meant that a lot of scenarios where it connected on stand blocking opponents could actually just be ducked and punished with crouching normals--and, by my memory, it could whiff on some characters standing if done too early in his jump. it could also just be flat-out unsafe if blocked high enough by tall characters--they buffed the hitstun, but not the blockstun.
-surprisingly, his forward walkspeed is actually tied fur second best in the game (only outclassed by yang,) but this comes alongside both forward and backward dashes with mediocre-to-long duration and a short distance covered. on top of this, iirc his throw range was the literal worst in the game, and he had no kara throw. his focus attack was also mediocre, and his weak dash cancel options made it even worse.
-both far HP and far HK are -9 on block, -5 on hit. consider that these moves are more unsafe than his sweep, which is a slide and an anti-air. far HK is one of his longest-range buttons, a very important poke--and it's punished on block by 9f horizontal ultras, and even on HIT by some characters. -9 was just safe enough to avoid punishment from a lot of ultras, but it was a concern in specific matchups, and some characters could punish with supurr instead. i remember dudley being a pretty unhappy matchup--it already wasn't very good fur dee jay, and once he had enough revenge gauge to ultra, you had to completely stop using far HK *and* fireball bc neither was safe.
-dee jay was a WIDEBOI--some characters did more damage vs him due to character-specific combos. iirc the specific issue was an extended hand in his reeling animation that had a hurtbox on it. his health and stun were 1000/1000, but depending on the matchup he was effectively a low-health character.
he had a few weird good qualities though--in spite of his strange, floaty jump arc, almost all of his neutral and angled jumping normals were quite good. his crossup was one of the best in the game, and most of the others either had good speed, range, hitbox, active duration, damage, or some combination of those. he had multiple strong air-to-air options covering various angles, which made his terrible AA less of a totally damning weakness. the only ones i remember not being great were his jumping medium punches, which in theory had ridiculous disjointed and long hitboxes, but in practice often just couldn't connect as reactive air-to-airs due to their high angle and 7f startup.
oh, and prior to ultra, the best his MK sobat FADC could be on hit was +6, meaning his main FADC combo required not only frame purrfect timing to link the close MK afterward, but the FADC had to be input purrfectly as well. the change to make it +8 in ultra not only made it more practical to actually attempt in a match, but gave him the ability to land a level 2 focus crumple off MK sobat focus cancel. it was a big buff to his ability to land ultra, but was difficult to execute and ironically came alongside red focus being implemented.
final thing probably: iirc the actual reason behind the nerf to EX upkick's AA ability had something to do with the change to make it hit crouching. they said the hitbox was EXPANDED downward, but i'm pretty sure it was actually MOVED downward, meaning it actually hit on frame 8 or 9 as an AA after the "buff" and was left not working in situations where not only did it previously work, but it worked where many other characters' anti-airs didn't. i remember being pretty royally pissed about it, bc one of the few benefits of playing such a mediocre character was having arguably the best autocorrect AA in the game with lightning fast startup fur one bar.
when im high i can barely type and then here's this guy writing a book lmao
@@pastorofmuppets9346 yeah, words are hard
close fierce forcing stand is even funnier when you remember that was a buff, not something it had from the start.
"Your victories will be more rewarding"
Famous last words.
very funny to watch having been just looking for content on sf6 deejay who's really good despite lacking some common tools
we're all hiding the tech ;)
i just started playing usf4 last week because of your primers and bad balance videos
Hehehe, I started playing last week just for the heck of it and it's 100% worth it. If you play on steam, feel free to add me. I'm ass but I love meeting new people :)
name's blueyandicy
@@blueyandicy ill add you once i get better internet :( my pc has trash built in wifi
the way the opponent instantly falls over seemingly the wrong direction when hit by cr mk gets me every time
Oh my god…. I can’t believe i used to Main this Deejay. After 6 there’s no going back to this lower level, no demon rush having Deejay.
Looking back at this video in 2023 and seeing Deejay as a candidate for top tier in sf6 is so cool, what a glow up from sf4
Every time I watch this I immediately go and watch the Omega Deejay vid after
Rewatching this after sf6 drops and god damn dee jay got a glow up
I just watched through the whole thing as a Deejay main from AE onward, it was really a fantastic watch. I felt like a bobble head a bit from how much nodding I was doing. But I think one of the best way to describe Deejay is a character with Gimmicks. Bad Gimmicks. Look at Dan, who is supposed to be bad, has bad normals, terrible fireball, but really good Dan Kicks. Those two are the only characters who can cancel Super to Ultra to my knowledge. Another one on top of the pile of Gimmicks is EX Machine Gun stops fireballs, though not multi-hitting.
That being said, this series is amazing, keep up the fantastic work Bafael.
capcom mustve seen this when they made deejay the monster he is in 6
Honestly doesnt feel like he should be a charge character lol
Yeah like I feel like he would make a pretty interesting motion character and a lot of his flaws wouldn't be as bad.
Not just from a gameplay perspective, but from a simple character perspective as well.
My first thought when looking at a hyperactive, happy-go-lucky dancing kickboxer wouldn't be "yeah, this guy should have to lock his feet to use special moves."
I think omega version switches it to shoto which is pretty cool, air slashes are a lot faster. But no one likes omega lol
@@Lena-iq6kd nobody likes the whole "multiple versions of characters" thing. Because "muh 300 matchups"
He'd feel better with short charges and more rushdown options. He's basically a KoF character anyway
Hey at least he's always grinning and never has tooth decay.
And our protagonist returned from his training arc, missing all of SFV, but with a burning new vigor in SF6!
Capcom nerfs bottom tier characters.
Bandai Namco and ArcSys: Ahhh yes. So that's how we do balance patches.
Namco? Dude please don't make me laugh... Tekken have been out selling Street fighter for years... Plus, Tekken 7 is extremely more balanced than crappy Street fighter 5... Capcom is the only company who nerfs characters purposely to make other characters stand out...There's one interview where a capcom rep admits that Alex was purposely nerf because he would be Overpowered... That's a bad excuse! Why even make a character just for looks.
That... makes too much sense. I played a lot of Blazblue when I was really into fighters and they were way too happy to remove options from weak or mediocre characters over balancing the numbers on cast members who had been running the arcades from as far back as CS.
@@skipfuego6339 Namco nerfed Eliza in S4
Legit I hope you make a video about Dee Jay for SF6, comparing how different/better he is in 6 than he was in USF4. Maybe an “SF6 At a Glance” or something
This video and the Omega video got me so strangely fascinated by this character’s history of mediocrity and seeing him get both a massive glowup and a real gameplay identity makes me want to play him. Thanks Baf!
what a glow up
Holy shit this video is half an hour. I love it
Never played SF except for when I found Super in a bargain bin and putzed around with my friends, I remember looking at Dee Jay's inputs and was immediately like "Nope, not gonna bother" lol. I love analysis videos like this even if I'm not too familiar with the source material. You're really articulated and while I don't have any character suggestions I'd love to see more of this in the future.
That 1 dislike is a Deejay main who hates being told the truth
There isn't a Deejay main alive who didn't already know the truth :(
@@ShadyHitchhiker 😆😂😭
God, I used to LOVE playing this character though.. His stuff is just good enough that you want to find those moments where his kit -does- work
I really think that this is the best fighting game channel on TH-cam. I wish you could do this full time. The content is A+ // 100%
DeeJay, in my opinion, was an afterthought character that Capcom didn't want ro see in competitive play because they had no idea what to do with him. That's why they never gave him any unequivocal buffs. They would have even gotten rid of his most unique strength if there wasn't backlash.
"Amusingly, while they did give Sobat it's low invuln back, they also made it -4 again..."
Good LORD, this guy just couldn't win anything, could he?
The Nash of sf4
I hope you remember to mention that Dee Jay in the hot teal Parrot costume is always OP.
Dee Jay and Guile were my mains and I loved using them.
You gotta wonder, why was Capcom so scared of buffing him?
Look at the Metsu Shoryken video and you'll see why they're scared of straight buffs.
There's only one mr Deejay maximum, the combo master
I have been playing Dee Jay in SF since he came out in Super, glad to see this video!
I do think his fireball + anti-air game is pretty solid, his normals do really well, but are spacing dependent, cl.strong if they're jumping over you, far strong if they're far out, not to mention it can cancel into fireball to force the opponent to block on landing. Naturally all of this is situational and using the right button depending on the situation. Neutral jump fierce is just for show to be honest, as it can be punished if hit early due to not being a hard knockdown.
I'm pretty conservative with my meter usage, as you have shown it's not really with it to use other than the occasional wake ex up kicks, or ex sobat, most people playing should have known better than to try to jump in on Dee Jay by the time Ultra released.
Still I'd rather do medium up kicks and juggle into the corner than use my meter.
I normally used my meter for Super xx Ultra for the damage, optimal setup this did a ton of damage, or for the insane 200 Chip to close out rounds where I couldn't land a solid hit.
Notably, the chip setup didn't work on Elena due to her hurtbox letting her DP in the middle of the super xx ultra blockstring.
Using Super xxUltra at the end of the round didn't feel terrible either considering Dee Jay didn't have the reduced meter gain compared to Guile when he got nerfed
Last thing I'd like to mention is Dee Jay's hurtbox on hit, it extends pretty far, granting some characters like Sakura or Abel extended more damaging combos.
As a bonus there's that little trick of Ryu dashing through Dee Jay in the middle of his wakeup animation, Infiltration hit me with this in an actual match in casuals years ago lol
I’ve heard that Omega Dee Jay is *way* better than his Ultra version because they made him a motion character. Do you think you could look at Omega Dee Jay like the other character overview videos you did?
He is way better than his ultra version but it's more because time and effort went into his kit than because he's motion. He's basically a proto version of sfv nash. He's got a lot of moves which are very similar, particularly the mechanics of his fireball.
@@Bafael Makes sense, when developers actually focus on a character, they end up being better. I think a lot of people want to see the Omega overviews return, including myself. I loved seeing the changes laid out with examples and all. I’d love if you decided to make one for Dee Jay, even if you don’t do another one for a while. From what I’ve seen, there’s a lot to explore with him.
Oooh a breakdown of how each character is from there omega forms would be great content 💯🔥
How about “Bad Balance: Mike Ross’s Character Picks in SF4?”
Or even "Mike Ross' Option Selects".
God I miss Excellent Adventures...
@@ShamanSZN “it’s an option, but it’s not mike who selects it” -gootecks
@@ShamanSZN eatin breakfast in the morning watching excellent adventures... ahhh if sfv didnt come out as shitty we could still have had to this day an enjoyable show
@@DeepSolid43 Mike was already kinda losing it during the end of USFIV, and gootecks has become well...
@@Triniwn from what i rember they were both looking forward to what the future had in store, the embarassing state sfv was in and the general shallowness quickly ended any hype they had
Excellent video! I think that this may be an excellent idea to look at Ultras/Supers/Critical Arts/V-Triggers/etc. that appear to be either "useless", or completely overshadowed by an alternative option.
My favorite thing about Dee Jay is that for Omega SFIV all they really did to fix/buff him was make him a motion/shoto character by removing all need for charge.
This was Just a test for nash into SFV
Did you know that in the pre-release version of SSFIV Machine Gun Upper was a pure mash input instead of a charge? I feel like this change alone caused many of the issues with the character throughout the life of the game.
After seeing this video Capcom will launch another patch nerfing Dee Jay further.
Been waiting for this one!! Deejay was so much fun too...
I can't believe this came out yesterday since I've been grinding USF4 for a bit now. Perfect timing, thanks.
I EVEN WATCHED YOUR DEEJAY IS BAD VIDEO YESTERDAY HAHAHA
This is the best SF content on YT
Can't wait to see how Street Fighter 6 Dee Jay is. I hope he's better, I'd love to main him.
He is *so much better* it's not even funny. Top 3 contender according to some top players
Narrator: "He was better... in every way."
@@kaleidoslug7777Yeah I can see that. I got to try him. I love him. Ken too.
I really like your videos. Recently I went back to the stuff you did for the SRK channel and watched them again just to get more. Thanks dude
22:47
"If you don't wanna do 1f links, and who does...?"
If years of hearing constant bitching about SFV have told me anything, everyone wants to do 1f links all the time and they were the greatest thing ever
I like difficult combos and interesting inputs, but I think the point is that no one wants to rely on them too much.
Dee Jay is mediocre even if the stars align so players who can handle pressure or poor online shouldn't get much payoff regardless.
For a non-FG example, I like the idea of Crazy Combos in DMC3 which are special moves that can only be done or extended with some mashing of a button (much like Lightning Legs).
The problem is when Turbo mode (1.2x or faster) are popular to play and some moves have ridiculous mash requirements. It kills setups that would just need you to hold a button in DMC4.
1f links could be bad, but everything in moderation.
1F links have a place in terms of risk vs reward. Performing 1F links nets more damage but is riskier than a combo with 2F or 3F links. SF5 made it so there is no longer any risk and you can just dial in the most optimal without fear.
@@Demon_Curse That's only the theory part. The practice part of it that was broken in SF4, was that some characters only had 1f links for the most basic combos.
@@Demon_Curse Yeah, even as a casual player, I think one frame links are cool. I like the risk reward factor because it makes players like daigo seem so much cooler and skyrockets the skill cap. There's no real downside to 1F links if the character still has other safer combos.
1f links were cool for the hype they would generate when Sakonoko would do an insane combo in a high stakes match and successfully pull it off. If they’re great for anything it’s the spectator experience. Won’t speak on the game balance aspect however.
Great video and I actually didn't know about Capcom adding the lower body invincibility back in a later Ultra patch. Honestly, by that point I was beyond checked out on Street Fighter. lol
One thing that felt like it was missing was his ability to combo into a level 2 charge focus. It's kind of one of the systemic nerfs DeeJay took in Ultra as red focus just made combos to lvl2 focus crumples something anyone could do. But DeeJay has always been able to cancel to it. I believe it's the first hit of medium or heavy sobat to a lvl2 focus charge attack. It actually makes for some pretty cool combos as well and plays to what I always thought his biggest strength was, corner carry. This was exaggerated by said combo to lvl2 focus charge creating the ONLY time I'm aware of where you could reasonably be expected to use crouch heavy as a cancel into up kicks as the focus crumple just did weird things to hurt boxes that made it work. It required a weird delay, but you could do medium sobat, focus cancel the first hit, let it charge right to when the lvl2 flash happens, release, dash cancel on hit, then pause for a second, hit with that first bullshit hitbox of his crouch heavy, then cancel to regular up kicks.
It was the insanely circumstantial and/or outright unreliable nature of DeeJay that made him so miserable to play at times. And the lack of support from the devs with the balance patches just ended up being salt in the wound. He's hardly the weakest character out there in fighting games as there's plenty of characters that are intentionally much weaker than him. But I don't think I've ever seen another character whose flaws were more common knowledge, yet nothing was done to fix them over such a long time. And it's really a shame because at his core, there's something genuinely joyful and fun about playing him and it was my time playing him that I look back on most fondly of my SFIV days. When I think of the most fun anti-airs to do, I think of his up kick juggles. When I think of my wildest moments, I think of baiting people with short hop tactics that you're just not used to seeing in SF. I love a good fireball meta and his was decent. But for each one of these there were things that just outright didn't work. Upkicks whiffing all crouching opponents, his hop knee attack whiffing crouching, his heavy punch key being broken and none of its normals being usable in a set, everything being 1f links, multiple normals whiffing crouching. I used to joke that the best way to beat DeeJay was just hold down-back as he had nothing he could do that you couldn't react to. Outside of a very ambiguous cross-up, DeeJay had nothing to threaten with and combined with how difficult it was just to make a combo work, even if you were hit, there was a good chance your opponent was either going to play it safe and go for a combo that did no real damage or risk a difficult combo they chanced dropping. He was such a strange blip in time in fighting games.
the more i learn about SF4 the more i feel like the devs were playing a different game than everyone else
30:34 *"Jamaican me mad with these nerfs."*
God-tier comment, trololol.
it feels like he'd be a pretty decent characters if he was a motion character
i hope in sf6 they make DeeJay’s air slashers into upward-launching homing-projectiles like Doctor Doom’s HIDDEN MISSILES, so he can set up his own offensive pressure. also, he should be a Ska-enthusiast now
It should be that when Deejay isn't on screen the viewers will ask where's Deejay
I hope SFVI does what ultimate did to the smash community, because god do I hate SFV
17:02 Deejay heard what you said about him.
"But now compare Deejay."
"Huh?"
"Heyyyy!"
Shoutouts to Deejay's best moment: th-cam.com/video/oBOsaqFheQU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=CanadaCupGaming
Fantastic to see some good deejay footage after going over all these things lol
Edit: this is great footage because dakou plays so well yet deejay's weaknesses are all showing. The way dakou plays around them is really incredible
Edit 2: I feel like I should do an analysis of these matches lol
After watching this video and going back to watch that clip, it was like seeing into the matrix
@@Bafael Emperor Palpatine Voice: "Do it!"
I lol'd so hard watching that back again!
@@Bafael I'd watch, especially if its a followup to this video and you point out his weaknesses and how he managed to overcome them :)
The thoroughness of your content is incredible
People will swear up and down that all characters are viable in a fighting game, but dont play these bad characters
Ye they do say that shit on discord a lot.
This is mostly said for newer games because they arent as well understood and the average skill level is a lot lower. When a game is older and more settled the tiers become a lot more clear.
These are so addictive. I need more.
Great video, I just wanted to bring a couple of things up. When you were talking about advancing while maintaining charge, you forgot to mention that knee shot is actually his best tool for doing this. If you space it correctly, you can also hop over fireballs and punish extended hurtboxes with low forward. Also, it is possible to do focus attack, dash, immediate ultra; you just have to delay the dash until really late. It's pretty hard though. With regard to his matchups, he does beat Ryu 7:3 which is cool, but he loses to pretty much every top tier, and goes 5:5 with most other characters. If he did more damage, I think he would be able to fight Evil Ryu quite well.
Yeah someone else showed me dash u1 but it's hard to do in neutral so mostly useful in red focus stuff I think. And yeah, knee shot advances but you've gotta break charge to up-forward so it's more something where you can advance and rapidly get charge back than something you can use to advance with charge, but still definitely useful.
I played Ryu as a secondary for the whole lifespan sf4 and I'd never say deejay beat him 7-3, probably not even 6-4, felt 5-5 to me and I played the matchup a good amount. Low forward was good against the cross up and the knee shot (low profiled both) and deejay's sobat wasn't even a super reliable counter to it since sometimes light sobat would whiff over ryus head while Ryu was doing cr mk. Both attacks whiffed but the characters would be point blank and Ryu recovered first.
@@Bafael For the Ryu matchup, countering Deejay's wakeup pressure doesn't even matter, as Deejay's gameplan is to zone Ryu for pretty much the entire game. Deejay can out pace Ryu in the fireball game and can punish them with EX sobat or knee shot over into cr. MK. Deejay can also beat Ryu in neutral with his cr. MK which usually trades with Ryu's buttons or beats them clean. Once you have the knockdown, you can meaty light fireball him and knee shot backwards to continue zoning. If Deejay plays it right, Ryu just has no real way to approach without taking huge risks.
I find it very funny for a boxer character to value Lows and crouching so much
First off, thanks for your honest assessment of Dee Jay and, in particular, not focusing on just his weaknesses but also making an attempt to consider his strengths. It demonstrates a much more critically thinking eye for detail than just assuming that Dee Jay sucks. In fact, there are two primary reasons why Dee Jay has traditionally been considered bad IMO. One, in large part due to his development history (which you review in this video very well), “Dee Jay sucks” became a meme early on and people just conformed to it rather than explore alternatives to get around his weaknesses. In other words, because there weren’t obvious alternatives to Dee Jay’s flaws, the whole community assumed he sucks (and will always suck), which then translated into “because Dee Jay sucks, there is no point in considering other methods of play with him.” Consequently, the meme became the truth and no further thought was ever given to it, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Secondly, there has been a tendency to want to define Dee Jay’s success rates by how well he conforms to other fighters’ successful fighting strategies rather than determine how the characteristics of his moves open up other options against his opponents. There’s a little bit of this in your current video, too, which I will try to address below. Not meant as a criticism, mind you, just as a counter-perspective on the character. The most interesting thing about your video is that you are right in almost all of your points, but the reason they are right is because they are built on certain key assumptions that work well for other characters but don’t apply to Dee Jay at all to the same degree. If you consider options outside of these assumptions, your chances with Dee Jay will be much better from the onset. Here are the most notable examples of this that I noticed (presented here in separate comments to prevent a massive wall of text):
1) Most of the normal anti-airs you present as not working properly don’t work because you are implementing them from Guile’s optimal distance from the opponent, not Dee Jay’s. Dee Jay’s best distance is actually just within the opponent’s sweep range. At this distance, your options are maximized, including successfully hitting jump attacks with your normals; optimal ability to pressure with Short Sobats, Air Slasher, EX sobat, a jumping knee; etc. The distance used in most of your video, though, (about 2/3 screen from the opponent) is one of the worst for Dee Jay and is the main reason why Dee Jay should spend most of his time out of it. A key to winning with Dee Jay is, believe it or not, excellent space control; luckily, Dee Jay has many ways to do this (see more below).
2) You mention Dee Jay’s Super in passing, but the video doesn’t give it quite the emphasis that it should IMO. Dee Jay’s Super is in reality one of the best in the game, not just because it has some invulnerability and good damage, but because it has so many pathways into it from many different vantage points on the screen. At my current count, there are 14 ways to use his Super in a fight, many of them leading to the Ultra 1 follow-up for even greater devastation. This tool is so useful that I actively aim to get a full Super bar every single round to give me that threatening damage factor as well as comeback ability (both of which your video suggests are two of his most glaring weaknesses). To be frank, the Super opens up all kinds of damage and combo pathways that the rest of his move set simply cannot match. The fact that more Dee Jay players don’t do this is, I believe, a key reason why their levels of success are so limited. Dee Jay also has the advantage that all of his specials are good in their normal form, so you don’t usually have to use EX at all unless you are falling way behind in life late in a round or desperately need to get opponents off of you quickly. With a few meter building tricks, it is not a problem to build a full meter for Super options every single round against most opponents.
3) The other missed boon in your video is optimal use of Dee Jay’s jumping Short Knee. While you do mention the Knee as a unique trait of Dee Jay’s design, the distance used in the video (and, to be fair, by most Dee Jay players) is actually not the optimal one. Even after a decade, most people do not seem to be aware that the potent property of the knee is not in its arc but in its near perfect hit box on the very front tip of it. At this point, the knee has ridiculously good hitting properties and next to no hurtbox. I’ve seen the thing take out normals, specials, and Ultras cleanly when used from the proper distance. Knowing this trait, you can set up a decent front mix up game by throwing the Knee at a much farther distance from the opponent than the one shown in your video. At the right distance, you will have options to: hit an opponent’s normal anti-airs cleanly with the knee; punish whiffed moves that are used to try and hit the knee in the air; mix up the knee with other jumping normals to hit opponents trying to actively counter the knee; and occasionally forego the knee altogether to perform an empty jump into a low hit. These varied approaches provide excellent opportunities for lowering the opponent’s defenses, but it requires jumping in with the knee at a distance that next to no one has used regularly up to now. That is why I often say the key to winning with Dee Jay is to throw jumping attacks at ranges where they will sometimes hit, not where they will always connect with an opponent. While this sounds counterproductive, it really isn’t, because a jump move that always connects from up close also leaves you open to consistent counter attack, whereas a move thrown from farther out will force the opponent to question whether their anti-air or other attack option will properly hit Dee Jay without leaving them open. In contrast, this mix-up option is never available when Dee Jay does the knee from up close (or, God forbid, multiple times in a row from close quarters). What’s more, it’s a key component to opening up your opponent to the MANY heavy damage options you have in your arsenal later in a round.
4) Dee Jay’s short Knee, combined with his quick projectile recovery, short dashes, and multiple jumping and striking options, give him some of the best movement pathways in the game, particularly for opening up the opponent’s defenses for heavy damage counterattack. The key is to play around in the ranges where Dee Jay works best (from far out and just within sweep distance, to be specific), but never in a linear fashion. In particular, you should be constantly shifting from jumping attacks to projectiles to dashes to special attacks, all at that range where the opponent will always question their own response attack and potentially have to leave themselves open to counter you. This means, among other things: never purposely trying to get close to an opponent (which you’ve already figured out in your video is not worth the trouble it causes); minimizing your moments without charge (including minimizing your walking back and towards); and doing everything in your power to frustrate your opponent until your two meters light up. The first 30 ticks of the clock during a round, I often refer to as “the dance” which is just Dee Jay playing around the opponent’s perimeter to build his strengths up. The final parts of the round are where you start watching for “sweet spots” to land your heavier damage options. By implementing this “dance” (or what I sometimes refer to as “kinetic rhythm”), you will usually have the option of big comeback potential that Super and Ultra meter afford; done right, you’ll never need to rely on them in the first place.
Thank goodness for SF6.
Basically this character is teoretically supossed to be a charge character who is great against crouching opponents trying to attack but weak at distance; the problem is that "charge" and "weak at distance" are non complementary, since the you're forced to stand in a point to use your best tools while your opponent will be able to pressure you from a safe distance.
cool to know that M up kicks always comboed into H up kicks
Your premise on "Capcom just refused to net-buff" can actually be a sub-series of itself. I always think of Grapplers in this case and how Fighting Game teams tend to be too scared to buff them too much. On the opposite side it tends to be rushdown/mobility characters that fly under the dev radar before they show to do super well overall in competitive.
What's interesting is when competitive fighting game players get to change/design their own game and ignore these fears, getting you characters like Project M/+ Donkey Kong that demonstrates the strengths of a grappler/heavy at highly threatening levels, but still maintains some common weaknesses that are shared with other heavies that results in a well tuned Character.
It’s a matter of what would be seen as too much of a dominant strategy. Bringing up PM, I’ve heard that Jigglypuff is considered a rather weak character throughout the various updates, and that’s due to Melee players not liking the character to begin with. The campy playstyle that Hbox uses to win tournaments isn’t seen as favorable, so they make it weaker or manageable. That’s fundamentally the same idea with grapplers most of the time
@@invincibleloonie Jigglypuff was basically unchanged from Melee, she's still really good, what passively got changed for her was that other characters recoveries got buffed, making her work more to gimp. Also Hungrybox mainly sticks with Melee and now Ultimate (he does like P:M though), so her usage at a higher level isn't that big atm.
But the cool thing about PM is that each character has so many tools that there really isn't one dominating strategy you see over and over.
I love this series because besides the obvious but like honestly this helps me and others out and really can’t wait for more. Also that sf3 strike Sean video helped me out with how I really felt about him in there. Just rather play the other 3 shotos tbh
I never lost wit playing Deejay so ur point is 🤷🏾♂️
🤡
The god himself
Tokido Umehara
What if
You were just a mediocre character and not terrible
But the SF community said
*FORCES STAND*
tbf, i think this vid undersells how bad dee jay was simply bc you don't really need to thoroughly exploit his worst qualities or worst matchups to do fine against him. i don't think it's true that he didn't have those truly awful matchups, it's moreso that you didn't need to do anything special to beat him, bc even his strongest tools are so mediocre out-of-the-box
charge reliance problems can be somewhat avoided with knee shot, a back dash into knee shot hit can be reliably +4 and can catch whiffed specials
Very good video, I've barely even played this game and you made all your points clear and easy to understand
USF4 THE MAC DADDY OF FIGHTING GAMES
Jamaican me mad with these nerfs, that comment made me laugh lol.
These videos are quite entertaining on a "thought process" way and I really enjoy them. I'd love to catch a SF4 Yun video, but I also would be interested in seeing a comparison between vanilla Sakura and USF4 Sakura as I always remembered people saying that she never changed much from each version while being ignorant at the the that she was very unremarkable in vanilla.
I think it was more that she wasn't really explored in Vanilla.
man i wish this series would come back
Hopefully Dee jay has more of an identity in the next game.
He does by the looks of it
This is extremely detailed and thought out but you definitely missed an opportunity to show off the single coolest thing he has with his massive chip damage setups using Super x Ultra 1.
I mained Deejay after Guile is SF4 because I just liked the added forward mobility through EX Sobat alone. Great video! The nostalgia!
Also, not having background music throughout the entire video is somewhat comforting.
I somewhat agree, however the SF4 soundtrack is very nostalgic for me which is also comforting imo.