Thanks everyone for watching! This seems to be quite the controversial video (by our standards). After referencing several of my own Osteopathic friends and colleagues, we all agreed that everything in this video is 100% factual. In fact, they weren't offended in the slightest (and were confused why some people were), but a few commenters below seem outraged. Yes, some OMM is great, and some of it isn't supported by science. Yes, it is definitely easier to get into DO schools than MD schools on average. Yes, it is harder to match into highly competitive specialties as a DO than an MD, even with the residency merger (but only time will tell). It's not impossible, in fact one DO student matched into plastic surgery my year (out of 150+ MD students). Possible, but much harder. If you find yourself cursing at your screen, I urge you to consider watching the video again and assessing if anything stated was false or highly biased. My only regret, if I could redo this video, would be to have more disclaimers to avoid the anti-DO and anti-MD clusterf*** that is the comments below. "Those who are easily offended should be offended more often.”
I think it was your pretentious voice. That is fact. And no, D.O’s still get highly respected only people with low self esteem like you would suggest so. Get over it your approach was atrocious whether or not you were factual
Hey Mr. Jubal, I was wondering as you had mentioned this video in your latest release would you be able to do research into a, well very intensive specialty? I am thinking I may not be as academically competitive for an allopathic school, but I may be able to be accepted into an O.M.M. school. I have been rather, fascinated on the specialization of Hematology, would this be an option for a D.O.?
Yes this video is factual but the tone of your voice and the way you presented the video was straight up negative energy (it felt like you were ready to diss anything that's not MD).
@@PHILLYMEDIC69 tone and negative energy? As you said, the video is factual and clearly you 'felt' a certain way because you don't like the way the facts are presented? You can't please everyone... I hope that if you're a doctor that you treat with facts instead of feelings.
As a D.O. I never thought too much about the difference - my doctors in my hometown of Philly were D.O.'s so that is what I wanted to be. I applied to both MD and DO schools - got into 2 MD and 2 DO (rejected/waitlisted by 4 other MD - applied to both MD and DO to be safe). Chose the school where my family docs went to - PCOM. I matched at the Mayo Clinic for residency in psychiatry. In over 15 years of practice I have never had anyone show any disrespect towards DOs - maybe I am fortunate. I don't see how the patient would even know. Good doctors are good doctors.
Wow, there are people out there who are going the route I was considering. Donald, I recently decided on going the medical route for psychiatry instead of my originally planned PhD route. I have personally felt a greater connection to some of the DO schools I have been researching, but I have been concerned that pursuing a DO would disadvantage me in attaining a competitive psych residency. Have you experienced any difficulties in pursuing psychiatry as a DO?
Keifer Weiland You will have no problems! I applied for residencies at UVA, UMass, Yale, Mayo and UMinn. Matched at Mayo Clinic - my first choice. Fellowship stayed there but tough choice between Yale and Mayo (got lazy and didn’t want to move for a year :) Bottom line DO was no impediment to residency or your choice in psychiatry :) Good luck!!
Hey Donald a quick question if you’d be so kind: I’m a pre med student and did a lot of research into MD and DO and came to the conclusion that DO is “better” than MD simply because in addition to being the exact same thing, DO does even MORE work with OMT. But people still think that MD carries better status. I get why that may be the case when it comes to higher residency match for MD-but I’m interested in General practice (I want to be the jack of all trades instead of limiting my self to one specialty). So given this, am I wrong to think that ironically, DO is better?
Good for you, you chose the better of the two. You were taught things m.d.s don't know and think they don't need to know, THATS WHY THEY CANT CURE ANYTHING. Hope you have great success.
@Open Sesame good for you. You must have good morals and a strong enough mind to see thru the brainwashing tactics. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing I was involved in the deaths of so many people. No amount of money or prestige is worth it.
Dudee😂... I can't believe you ran off to create this account just to question who found Craniosacral therapy. Can't believe some of y'all are falling for it too. I mean come on the video said the practice was founded in 1874.. That's like 148years ago😂. And Mr. Andrew Taylor still would probably have to be more older than that
DO here that matched interventional radiology. For anybody watching this in 2021, I think this is a pretty solid, transparent comparison that is generally true, even now (3 years later.) And while not many DOs match things like plastics, derm, ortho, etc. it does happen every year & the numbers have been growing since the merger. In fairness though, not many MDs match those either; they are very competitive! I think there is still some residual bias, in particular maybe at upper-tier places, but it seems to be getting a lot better. For reference, In my graduating class alone this year, we had 3 IR matches, 1 derm, a couple ortho, 1 vascular, 1 ENT, a couple urology & other great matches at upper-tier places in EM & IM. I can speak from personal experience too that I interviewed at some pretty great programs in the T25 or so for DR (I applied IR & DR.) I think about 80% of our class matched residency programs that were originally ACGME accredited too (even pre-merger this number I think was about 75%.) Like anything, there is a spectrum with respect to entrance scores (some DO schools have averages right up there with average MD schools, some less.) My schools’ averages are right up there with the averages of average MD schools. With respect to board exams, my school actually outperforms the other MD schools in our region with respect to Step 1 & Step 2CK average scores & we have had about 1/3 of students sit for both COMLEX & STEP. And for the OMM stuff... the techniques that overlap with PT/OT I think are great & work excellently. I agree 100% that the craniosacral stuff absolutely has to go. I think OMM overall would be more respected if we just tossed that. Even professors seem aware that it is an outdated teaching with no scientific basis. Outside of that it’s pretty useful & can at least help patients feel a bit better when they walk out the door, ya know? I don’t plan on using it personally beyond with friends/family with minor aches/pains but it is useful for that type of stuff. But ya! DO schools - at least mine - do a good job at finding people who didn’t know what they originally wanted to do when they entered college & have all sorts of interesting back stories (e.g. I was in a small touring metal band for a few years & didn’t really try very hard when I first got to college.) They look for people who absolutely have the intelligence to be in medical school but found their passion late in the game. I think this is at least one of the reasons the stats are lower at DO schools overall (another big one being newer DO schools taking lower stat applicants too of course.) If anybody has any more questions or anything I’d be happy to help answer some. Feel free to DM! I think MedSchooInsiders did a solid job though like I said above. Just wanted to add some anecdotal info from my experience & maybe add more context to the current (2021) state of things.
Hey, I recently got into a DO school. I want to match into DR, but I've also been thinking about IR. What do I need to do to stand out and match even if I do attend a DO school.
i know this is late but what DO program did you attend? i live in texas so i’m looking at TCOM UIWSOM and SHSU, two relatively newer programs so a little scared it might be difficult matching into IR
@@kushalnellore1588 an overall balanced app is the best app. Solid scores, grades, preceptor assessments, maybe a little research. Never forget your hobbies. Have a life outside of medicine & let it show on you app a bit. 75% of my interview questions were about my music background.
@@kingtrevi the school you attend doesn’t matter a lot, it’s your application that matters. You can build a strong application at any school you attend. Anecdotally, this isn’t really something that’s ever talked about in the rank meetings I’ve been a part of (for both diagnostic & interventional where I am). You could argue that older schools have a larger alumni network though which can help get you connected to programs you’re interested in if an alumnus is a resident or attending there though.
I went to MD's in the beginning, then after having horrible migraines and only given drugs my husband said he heard about this DO that was amazing. I went to him and he manipulated my spine while talking to me about monkeys. Result migraines gone and I later found out he out he often talked about monkeys to get you to relax. Our whole family switched to him. Best doctor in our area.
My buddy went D.O because he had a 527 MCAT and 4.0 GPA, they offered him a full ride for tuition and discounted room & board. The MD schools did not offer him anywhere close to that in AID. He still matched into General Surgery and graduated from his residency this year. He was at the top of his class however, he said the majority of DOs at his school matched into FM, IM and Peds. Radiology is a big one now for them also, people want that work life balance. Some went on to do fellowships but later on. He is finally out of residency hell and got an offer of 350k plus production bonuses in the mid-west. Though he still always works about 60 hours a week minimum.
I'm currently going to a DO school, and there is more to OMM than mentioned in the video. Although the thought process behind applying pressure to the skull changing the CSF circulation sounds very absurd, OMM is great for MSK issues like back pain. It's not just cranial. Also, if you look at most sports med doctors (even in the professional league), I would say a good amount is DO (not sure of the exact number). (Also, not all schools teach cranial OMM because it takes a lot of experience to master it apparently) I wouldn't use OMM in my practice to help someone with a lung carcinoma, but if I encounter a pt with back pain or shoulder pain, OMM is a great way to alleviate the pain. I'm not trying to bash on this channel. I'm actually a huge supporter but just wanted to clarify.
EstherJHKim OMM is very similar to chiropractic. They both were developed around the same time. Though every ancient advanced civilization has had comparable practitioners from back walkers to the bone setters of the Aztecs and Mayan people. Even Chinese medicine uses practices like acupuncture.
Med School Insiders it doesn’t seem that you understood her comment. She was saying that, while the original explanation of craniosacral therapy might be ridiculous, it can still be effective at relieving pain. You seem to be rejecting the therapy based on how people explain it, which is a silly reason to reject something. Even if the only reason it helps someone is because it’s relaxing, it can still be useful.
Michael - honestly, not a whole lot. The approach is a little different, the way they asses the patient is a little different, and the way they think about it are different, but they do many of the same things using similar techniques.
I don’t think this was intending to put DO schools down. I was considering going the DO route myself, but ended up going the MD route for a few of the reasons listed.
Peace be to you Adnan! I considered DO back in 93'. My ego wouldn't let me apply b/c of what this young man is discussing. Ironically, I became a Physician Assistant in 00' and eventually, earned a Doctorate of Health Education from A.T. Still University in 2012. Life is interesting.
Both MD Doctors and DO Doctors are great. Osteopathic Medical students are going into tough residencies and with the merger between MD and DO residencies soon, there will be less of a gap. Both take tremendous time, studying and effort to become. I know DO students who have gone into tough residencies such as, General surgery, Orthopedic surgery, Radiology, Ophthalmology and much more.
DO trained physicians are equally competent in patient care. The tone of the video implied that MD’s are superior because of they don’t use OMM and the incoming DO students have lower GPA’s on average. I’ve worked with a DO in oncology who was incredible. I wish there were more physicians like him. There should be caution in trying to frame DO as less desirable or easier, especially with the 2020 merger.
I don’t think the lower GPA is statistically significant. I do think that the lower MCAT is more significant. That said, I think the tests only help,determine who will be successful in school, not how good of a physician the person will be. My only real concern is the OMM seems like voodoo medicine to me.
I agree. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
I am 72 and was delivered by an osteopath. I volunteered in an Osteopathic hospital. As a student nurse I attended a hospital program. Never saw the difference except the osteopaths were great with necks and backs. I had the feeling that the DOs were looked down on by the MDs. Once I got into the Navy---no difference. I had no idea who did what. The specialty residencies were no different for anyone. I guess I am still partial to the DOs because of orthopedic needs
That is changing. I see more and more DOs at hospitals. I prefer them over MDs quite frankly because their approach is more holistic. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
A word of encouragement to the DO students out there....and a word of CORRECTION to those who bash craniosacral manipulation: I am a non-surgical musculoskeletal specialist MD, Cornell undergrad, SUNY Buffalo med school, Baylor for Medicine, then UT Southwestern Med School for PM&R, board certified in PM&R with sub-specialty board certification in Pain Medicine, and I assure you that OMM (including craniosacral manipulation) can be extraordinarily useful tools in pain management. I have been out of MD residency for 21 years, and, in the past twelve years, I have had 800 hours of training in OMM (including craniosacral), taught by DOs and by PTs who learned OMM from DOs. As a PM&R doctor, every work day of my career has involved my assessing the neuromuscular and musculoskeletal systems of my patients in some capacity. I have done over 7000 electrodiagnostic tests ("EMGs"), countless epidurals and other interventional pain management, procedures, a few hundred thousand trigger point injections, and I spend about 60% of my time doing OMM on patients. So trust me, because I know a LOT more about the validity of OMM and craniosacral manipulation than does the MD plastic surgeon who narrated this video: DOs can be great doctors who change lives. If you go to DO school, please take your OMM training seriously. Especially with the narcotic crisis, we need more docs who can heal people with their hands instead of prescribing addictive drugs. Now, go out there and change the world for the better.
Can you provide any research from a respected journal that shows OMM and specifically craniosacral manipulation works? I have no issue with OMM if people can show me the data but often it's n=1 or not a true scientific study.
Great sharing of knowledge. Thank you, doctor. One question:. My son is starting do schooling this year. One of specialty of interest is pm+r. Is there a site or book about this specialty you know of? So, he can be better informed before the time to match. Thank you.
Thank you for adding your expert advice to this demeaning and largely incorrect video. I am a DO student very interested in OMM in OB patients. But this video is so full of nonsense from someone who clearly knows nothing about what true OMT is and can do. I truly appreciate your real life experience being shared on this post!
Ask a patient in V-Fib if he wants an M.D. or D.O. He wants someone who will help him period. From what I've seen, both are equally capable and there's virtually no difference in clinical practice, at all. Stupid debates like these detract from the reality of what our profession is and that is SAVING LIVES. Peace.
This seemed extremely biased and you failed to mention the residency merger that eliminates the separate residencies for DO and MD. You also failed to mention the tenets of osteopathic medicine... 1.The body is a unit; the person is a unit of body, mind, and spirit. 2.The body is capable of self-regulation, self-healing, and health maintenance. 3.Structure and function are reciprocally interrelated 4.Rational treatment is based upon an understanding of the basic principles of body unity, self-regulation, and the interrelationship of structure and function. Osteopaths seek to treat the disease or illness rather than treat the symptoms. They take a more holistic approach, but in the end they are still doctors licensed to practice medicine just like any other doctor in the US and the discrepancies between the two degrees are slowly diminishing.
So are you saying that traditional aliphatic medical schools don't believe that the body is a unit, and that the body can self-heal? That's absurd. You're making huge generalizations. You also say that osteopaths treat disease rather than just the symptoms, ALL doctors do that. A holistic approach to medicine is not specific to osteopaths, and you're bashing medical doctors with illegitimate information. Maybe DO school is right for you, since you can't even count to 4 properly...
Robert Kurd I don't know why you are incapable of talking in a civil manner. I am in no way bashing medical doctors in my comment nor am I saying allopaths don't believe in any of the osteopathic tenets. I was simply stating what osteopaths emphasize. Also, yes, osteopaths do place a larger emphasis on a holistic approach than their allopathic counterparts.
Michael - the stigma may be present in the medical community, but it is not held by the general public. Most people do not even know when they are seeing a DO at the doctor's office because the continuity of care and training between the two degrees is virtually the same.
I agree. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
The stigma around DOs is still around but it’s quickly disappearing. The general public doesn’t know that DO students have lower gpa’s or MCAT scores so I doubt that’s the reason. A DO told me that he thinks the stigma comes from DOs originally going to school for one year less than MDs. OMM is probably a part of it but because there is more of an emphasis on preventative/wholistic medicine patients feel that it’s a bit hokey when they’re suggested to change lifestyle habits instead of just taking a pill. Also the MD and DO programs residency programs are merging. Going to a DO school doesn’t make it harder to land a good residency a program. The association comes from the lower scores on boards (that are rising). The two programs are much, much more similar than they are different.
RR3Demos I don't need to argue. I know you're compensating for your own deficits online. Why would I argue. I'll be making as much money as an MD. It's just entertaining to watch you try so hard. Baahahahaha. Also sucks for you if you even are a med student at Drexel. You gonna have to work around DOs! Hahahaha. Also I'll matching into an MD program. So I guess MD residencies suck?
RR3Demos I’m sure there are both DOs and MDs that aren’t tremendous practitioners but to counter your point, where are your arguments? A good MCAT and GPA do not mean someone will be a good doctor, no matter their classification. That’s why schools look for well rounded applicants. There is much more to being a good doctor and getting a good residency than just scores.
Med School Insiders I apologize for this being rather one sided. I didn’t mean to imply MD’s don’t recommend lifestyle changes/search for the root of a problem over going for a “quick fix”. Additionally, I said some things more bluntly than I wish I had but I do believe that nowadays a DO and MD the same scores and extracurriculars would be evaluated the same by a residency program. I felt that some things were missed. I don’t have a problem with your criticism of OMM but I am curious what your reasoning is for having a hard time believing that cranial sacral therapy could work. I don’t know the specifics of the treatment but the body works in crazy ways, so who knows. But I digress, another good video, thank you.
Osteopathic Medical Schools are still extremely difficult to get into. A great gpa and mcat is necessary, along with the rest of the usual resume that is required for MD schools.
In 2020 there will be no DO or MD residencies. They will be applying to the same residencies. All physicians MD or DO will be applying for the same residencies that will be under the AGME. Also, both MDs and DOs treat the whole person. Please stop saying that's all DOs do. I know several MD preceptors that are into treating the patient as a whole. The only difference people are the initials behind the name. And the extra tools of omm in the bag.
@Bernie Sanders except MD students will need to take the COMLEX to apply to DO residencies, so they would have to learn OMM, I don't see any md student doing that any time soon
Kate Dubrouskaya Med student applying for match this year. DO residencies do not require COMLEX in place of USMLE or OMM training. At least not at any of the programs I applied to.
I am a second year DO medical student and I do have to say that times are changing where people actually seek out osteopaths as their physicians rather than MDs. MDs represent the old school way of practicing medicine and many people have grown weary of less than satisfactory encounters with their doctors especially in the primary care fields. As DOs we are instinctively taught to use our hands to diagnose, something that you would be hard pressed to find in an MD physician. I would say we are more skilled in PE from that 500 hrs of extra practicing on each other, we already know what normal feels like on patients well before stepping into a clinic. From a patients perspective this is actually appreciated as being more thorough. We have a lot more hurdles to bypass bc we have to take both boards and we are learning an entirely separate curriculum alongside traditional medicine, but once you’re in practice, theres no such difference. I personally feel like this distinguishing label shouldn’t exist and only those who are interested in specializing in osteopathy should have to learn about it to this depth however being a DO i dont feel any less of a doctor than if I were an MD.
@@lth1228 Hi, I just applied to PA school, but I have always wanted to do Orthopedic surgery. I’m thinking of doing Med school after PA school since now the MCAT is very hard for me. Even with my 3.82 GPA
There is still quite a bit of secondary discrimination against D.Os. I found a wonderful osteopathic primary care doctor. When I had a serious infection and was directed to bed rest with antibiotics and painkillers, my employer refused to accept her doctor's letter because she didn't have M.D. after her name and therefore wasn't a "real doctor." Basically her medical practice was equated to homeopathic herbal medicine. I was told a letter from a licensed physician was required or my paid sick leave would be denied. After a lengthy conference call with the freaking state medical licensing board, my department manager finally grew past the ignorance to understand that a D.O. is indeed a licensed physician.
that is the most absurd thing i have ever heard..... why couldn't your employer just do a quick google search? look up your DO's license number? so sorry u had to deal with that
@@tdtadesse547 There are very few D.O.s where I live; most of my colleagues have never met one. There is however, a highly visible community of chiropractors and Chinese-medicine "doctors." The medical leave policy, which still hasn't been revised, specifically states that only a practitioner with a designation of M.D. may provide documentation. Office rumors abound of people who were abusing the leave policy by getting letters from chiros and Chinese herbal doctors, so I assume that's why the policy became so strict.
This comment is from 3 years ago. A lot has changed. I know DOs who are surgeons, I also know DOs who work in ERs, my obgyn was a DO. All excellent doctors. It also doesn't matter if it's easier to get into a DO school, this does not make them subpar doctors. There are MDs who are HORRIBLE doctors. It has nothing to do with how easy or hard it was for them to get into med school. Med school itself is academic. Residency and how you perform as a physician while taking care of patients is the gauge of a good doctor. Not their MCAT score.
I think there needs to be an update to this video as a lot has changed. The biases/misconceptions are slowly dwindling. It’s increasingly becoming very competitive to get into DO schools, and lesser proportions of DOs are now matching into primary care and going into more competitive specialties.
@@ibaadkhan2932 my comment wasn’t about numbers. GPA and MCAT are only a fraction of the requirements needed to be competitive, so I won’t just look at that. Most schools take a holistic approach and a lot of folks with a cumulative GPA of 3.5 get into top tier MD and DO schools. It’s not just about the numbers but the degree of competitiveness of an application and eventual matching into competitive residency programs around the country.
@@j572y479 Numbers certainly aren't everything, but they are important. GPA and MCAT are central to medical school admissions. No matter what lens you apply, attaining admission to any US medical school -- allopathic or osteopathic -- is extraordinarily difficult.
As a student at a DO medical school I have seen and heard the stigma against DO’s. At the end of the day, they are both physicians who are trying to do what is best for their patients. They both learn the same information (with the exception of OMT, which is a topic for another time), and they both take similar exams. DO’s actually end up taking more board exams (the USMLE and the COMLEX). This doesn’t make their path harder or the MD’s path easier, as there are probably other hurdles that MD’s must do through their medical education. I do feel as though the stigma that is against DO’s comes from the idea that DO schools are “easier” to get into. At the end of the day, yes, MCAT scores and GPA’s are probably lower for the average DO student then the average MD student. However, I personally do not believe that these are good measurements for how good of a doctor you will be. Do they matter, absolutely! I think they do indicate how well of a test taker you are, and odds are, if you scored well on the MCAT, you will probably do pretty good in med school. This is becoming a lot longer of a comment then I had anticipated but I just want to finish by saying, at the end of the day, go to the doctor that YOU are comfortable with. Don’t worry about the two letters after their name, if you like them and more importantly, trust them, then go to them. Its that simple.
The stigma is starting to recede. I see more and more DOs in hospitals. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
NEGGED! But seriously, this came across as slap in the face to DOs. You made it sound like if you aren’t good enough for an MD you can do DO. Some of us are choosing to go the DO route
@Bernie Sanders Degree doesn't matter. It's what you do after med school that counts. Calling DOs second class is a huge slap to the face to that entire community. Just because you go to an MD doesn't mean you're guaranteed more success than a DO, grades don't mean anything in the real world.
@@theywalkinguptoyouand4060 Medicine is holistic. Allostatic load, lifestyle, and overall wellness should be taken into consideration when evaluating health and the MD approach is far too focused on treating observable symptoms instead of creating the root causes of illness
5:10 "Now that we've went through the difference between the MD and the DO" The only real difference you told us about their studies was one time some people thought craniosacral therapy was a thing and this may or may not be taught to people on the DO path. Have you a video that goes into more detail comparing the curriculum?
Other than OMT/OMM, the curriculum is the exact same. Now every school does curriculum differently, but if you're a DO student and plan to take Step 1 (the MD board exams) you're going to learn the exact same material and take the exact same test. Essentially, DO = MD as far as curriculum, the bias is against the student, as DO stats tend to be lower than MD +90% of the time. But I say DO's rock because if you're not naturally gifted like an MD student, pass the same curriculum AND learn OMT on top of what MD student's are learning, you're a bad ass and I'd be happy to have you as my PCP.
Something that you forgot to mention is: “The Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) announced that by 2020, all MD and DO residency slots would be combined under a single accreditation system”.
JustTooLit hi! im from the future! and it happened. he still should’ve mentioned it as a possibility in the future. he has a very obvious personal bias, but the objective points he makes are good to make your own decisions
As a chronic pain patient, I can assure you that lack of osteopathic learning makes a helluva difference. My allopathic pcp was struggling to figure out what specialists to send me to because of my atypical symptom sets. While she was so much better than the other doctors because she incorporates wholistic physical science, when I began seeing her my understanding of my symptoms were greatly improved. However, she was learning from me because my research wasn't limited to what allopathy finds respectable. I was able to make connections that her training had caused to disconnect. However, when she finally referred me to a chiropractor, I finally began to experience treatments that both alleviate my pain and explore causation. Because of that, my chiropractor makes much better specialist references. She is more knowledgeable about biological system connections and helped me to pinpoint the actual problem areas. The improvements in my well being and health are clearly marked. Together with my allopathic doctor and personal research into natural form medicines, Im doing way better than any patient who took up the allopathic doctors recommendation of pain pills, because they don't know anything about preventative, nor nutritional medicine and pain pills exert the liver and kidneys with ongoing use. They don't cure anything at all. Allopathy hasn't dominated political "reputation" organically. Politics doesn't work that way.... So glad that more people aren't setting for the pills then die medicine anymore. Calling allopathy competitive while celebrating less understanding. In exactly what realm does this competition exist, but it clearly doesn't challenge medicine to do better for patients. I wish people who were pursuing healthcare just for status, money, and competition were weeded out in the education process instead of encouraged. They mess everything up.
I dont comment often on videos but I do feel the need to comment on this one. I just finished my 1st year at a DO medical school and while we are all taught OMM, many of us dont really intend to use it. We have licensed DOs that come to our school to teach us OMM but when we actually ask them if they practice it, not many actually do. Its just one of the hurdles that comes with attending a DO school. I can tell you that my goal is to be a doctor to help people, if I have to learn some OMM while getting there, its fine. But to say that DOs are any less competent or lesser doctors than MDs is just plain ignorant and bias. I encourage those of you that think this to actually meet a DO and see if theres any difference than an MD. Im glad Med School Insiders is very open on the discussion about this (check pinned post) and that while initially presented as some biased in the video, he addressed it so thank you for that!
Really interesting - I didn't know a bunch of what you've explained about D.O. school. You always do such a great job breaking things down in your comparison vids, man👌
Please do a video on the D.C. degree, or maybe not if you bash on Chiropractic Manipulation as much as you did on OMM in this one. I'm glad to say that my Doctor of Chiropractic has saved me from 4 upper extremity surgeries in the past 2 decades! Prior to me discovering chiropractic care, an M.D. butchered a foot surgery on me at the age of 22. He accidentally cut the nerve to my big toe and I've had arthritis in that toe now ever since. Thus I'm not a fan of surgery unless I feel it's absolutely necessary. For neuromusculoskeletal issues, I always see my D.C. first nowadays.
I love your videos, they have helped me tremendously. However, if you don’t agree with the stigma against DOs you should not contribute to it, which is what I feel this video did. When I applied to medical school I was offered admission to both MD and DO schools and I thank my lucky stars I didn’t see this video when I had to make my decision, because I chose DO and I am so grateful that I did. I suggest that you invite a DO to your channel, that way you have both perspectives and can have a fair comparison and conversation. I would also suggest to your viewers that they should apply to both. It was on the interview trail that I discovered how much more I clicked with one school than another and one style than another and I would discourage limiting your scope out of fear of bias.
Could you touch on the residency merger that is taking place? From what I understand the MD vs DO difference is diminishing when it comes to matching into residencies...
@@bruceylee8670 This comment is from 3 years ago. A lot has changed. I know DOs who are surgeons, I also know DOs who work in ERs, my obgyn was a DO. All excellent doctors. It also doesn't matter if it's easier to get into a DO school, this does not make them subpar doctors. There are MDs who are HORRIBLE doctors. It has nothing to do with how easy or hard it was for them to get into med school. Med school itself is academic. Residency and how you perform as a physician while taking care of patients is the gauge of a good doctor. Not their MCAT score.
Single accreditation (happening now - 2020) and regional specific preferences for residency/practice (especially for non-traditional applicants) are important topics to consider when choosing osteopathic vs allopathic medical school. (There are well-known regional preferences for DO applicants in residency). Furthermore, non-traditional students/applicants changing careers are generally preferably considered by osteopathic med schools.
I don't really feel strongly about going to DO or MD but I will say every doctor I've had that I loved, I knew they were DO before even looking at their suffix. They seem to prioritize whole health even in the ER whereas the MD's tend to ask me a few questions then prescribe serious medication shortly after even if I dont really need it. It's very strange.
I am an Osteopathic Student, OMS-III, and many of my colleagues had great MCAT scores and still chose a DO school over an MD school. That statement is so untrue. While DO schools are largely more open to students with lower scores, our schools are far from comprised of majority students with that profile. Lastly, I don't know who your friends are at DO schools that agree that Cranio-sacral Manipulation doesn't work! They are crazy! Perhaps they are the ones that never truly learned how to manipulate well.This is an extremely difficult treatment to learn, but immensely powerful and absolutely can effect the CSF of the brain even to the point of disruption of the vomiting centers (making patients throw up immediately) if not done properly. You should not be making videos about DO if you have not personally sat in our classes and manipulation lectures. Leave the dissemination of our philosophy and skill set to us. Thanks!
@@jamesmannsfield5699 no, he's not right. The stats are far from evenly distributed with majority of med students sitting for USMLE and that being the widely accepted and most known degree, but only 20% of med students taking COMLEX and the commonly accepted misconception that somehow our philosophy makes medical concepts easier. They are the same concepts, Dx and Rx plus over 300 hrs of OMM a year. Stats have to be equally comparable to be valid and these are not.
Kelly Scruggs Again, not saying you are a bad doctor, as the MCAT is a worthless test. But the average MCAT for DO programs is around a 504, with the schools I have heard of around a 507. Still lower than pretty much all med schools. I mean averages and means, are averages and means. Also while I have heard of the 520 DO student who turned down a full ride to Harvard for AT STill, I have never actually met that person in life. In the end it’s fine, we all match at the same programs, and I think the video did a great job trying to objectively say what we all already know with data. AS far as OMM goes, I’ll look into it more, but I have personally never seen a DO utilize it.
@@jamesmannsfield5699 *"aside from clinical rotation* is very similar." Have you been *through* either medical school to even know what either of the clinical rotations involve? Just asking. Also, can you enlighten me the same way on residencies?
I am a D.O., now working as an attending physician for 6 years now. Before, during, and after college graduation, I was on a F-1 student visa. There were 3 allopathic medical schools who interviewed me. Saint Louis University, SUNY Upstate, and NYMC. I didn't get into any of them. I got the idea of applying to D.O. schools, when I noticed a Japanese citizen student on F-1 visa, who gained acceptance to a D.O. school. I did gain acceptance into a D.O. school. Going to St. George's was not even an option, as a F-1 student, in my case. During medical school, I definitely felt the discrimination and distrust from allopathic residency programs in competitive specialties and competitive academic locations, during my elective sub-internship rotations and residency interviews. I would say MBBS/MD graduates from foreign countries (India, China, South Korea, Japan, UK, Australia, Germany, etc) were more competitive than me for these residency interviews. One interviewer even told me so. I had the double trouble of getting a US residency as someone who needed a visa sponsor, and being a D.O. My medical school had a residency program which said they would accept me and sponsor my visa. But, I wanted to go somewhere better for me. I thankfully matched into an allopathic, non competitive specialty in 2009. I even managed to do 2 fellowships. Looking back, I note that my school still relies almost entirely on students paying tuition. It's expensive. There is no cheap, affordable D.O. school. Except maybe Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, but only for Michigan US greencard/citizens. I later learned from financial planners/insurance agents who market to medical residents, that D.O. graduates on average carry more debt vs US allopathic school graduates. I paid over $50,000 per year, and I graduated in 4 years on May 2009. There will probably never be a RCT to prove that OMM is clearly evidenced based treatment for a specific medical condition. The results vary so much on individual variation and skill. To note something ironic, I developed chronic pain in my right rib next to my spine, and below my right shoulder. The reason? A D.O. classmate did the Kirksville crunch on it, many times. I suffered with this pain for years. He and D.O. attendings told me, it's my studying posture. Funny, I never had the pain before. As of 2016, I no longer have this pain. So, OMM can hurt you, or it can help you. Not surprising, everything has a beneficial and adverse effect. D.O. students must miss out on something for spending so many hours on OMM. They do. They don't get class time on analyzing medical journal articles, doing clinical or laboratory medical experiments. I personally know no D.O. Ph.D.s. The D.O. physicians who I know of who are recognized for landmark medical clinical trials, sought extra training elsewhere, and always at an allopathic institution. Residency, fellowship, NIH. Our class valedictorian matched into an allopathic academic Urology residency, in a small town. I note that there are many new D.O. schools in rural America. This is wrong. I know they surely rely mostly on students paying tuition, and I know the students rotate far away from school or in small hospitals they have never heard of themselves. I know they are trying not to do primary care. Some of these schools are for profit. The federal government should regulate this from getting out of control. When I graduated in 2009, even the last ranked student had a residency spot. I'm not so sure that is true now in 2019-2020. With the ACGME merger, D.O. students will lose spots overall, and their protected D.O. only radiology, ophthalmology, ENT, urology programs will be lost. You speak facts, but I think your tone is sort of a problem. What are you saying about allopathic US medical school graduates who do a residency in a community hospital, with D.O. graduates and Caribbean MD school graduates? There is one advantage for D.O. graduates over Caribbean MD school graduates. I believe there is a way for the US military to compensate for the D.O. graduate's medical school debt (and of course the allopathic US MD graduate's medical school debt), but not for the Caribbean MD school graduate. I also note that my school's 2 teaching hospitals were not academic centers. They were 2 community hospitals with several residency programs. It is an uphill battle for the D.O. graduate. Lastly, I note that some in similar situations as myself, returned to my home country of birth, graduated from medical school there, and returned to the US for medical residency.
Let's be honest, everything he said in this video is 100% true. Let me ask all DO students this: If you were offered acceptance to a USMD school vs USDO, which would you have gone to? Under normal circumstances (I.e, no family issues, issues with distance, etc.), probably the USMD and if you try to say otherwise, you're simply lying to yourself. I'd go as far to say that the majority of people in DO schools are only there because they did not get into MD schools. The DO degree is great because it allows less competitive people the ability to become doctors. Some DO schools have an average MCAT less than 500. The USMD is more respected (in the medical community) and opens doors to specialties that are otherwise near impossible for DO's. Don't even get me started on the COMLEX vs USMLE. No one is saying DOs are less competent than MDs. Never once was that mentioned. But seriously, the biggest problem with the DO community is that they don't want to accept their degree has limitations. Can you get into competitive specialties with a DO? Sure. But compare any MD school match list with any DO school match list and you'll see that DOs mostly match non-competitive primary care. There are even some programs that filter out DO applicants from their residencies. TLDR; MD is better than DO if you want to go into something competitive. Facts. If you just want to be a doctor to help people, MD is equal to DO. You don't need to be smart to be a doctor, you just have to be hard working. Source: I'm a DO student.
I think the issue with DOs not being respected is some DOs don't respect their own field because the only reason some of them are in the program by default because they couldn't get in anywhere else. Those DOs who actually wanted to be in a DO program due to its theory are overshadowed by other settlers.
Agreed that if you want a competitive specialty, MD is the way to go, if given the option. Personally, I want to do FM so I only applied to DO schools. Recently, a visiting clinician asked our lecture hall of OSMIIs how many people were interested in primary care and only ~15 out of 200 students raised their hands - I laughed out loud considering, statistically, >50% of our class will end up in FM or IM.
jojokiri Actually Do is better because they do everything an MD does and more with osteopathic care. Sure specialty acceptance is one thing but I like jack of all trades
I am really not a fan of this video. While most of the information shown is true, the way it was presented was extremely biased and heavily puts down DO schools and osteopathic medicine. Please read below: - You talked about how when you matched into plastics maybe one DO student matched that entire cycle. I find that truly hard to believe. If you look up DO schools most recent match lists (besides newer programs) such as DMU, LECOM, PCOM , OHCOM, CCOM, KCU and many others you will find at least one Otolaryngology match (if not more) so while yes it might be harder, you made it out to be impossible which isn't great. - You talked about how DO's are not as respected as MD's. In every prominent hospital there are many osteopathic physicians and that number is growing. If you take into consideration the amount of DO's practicing compared to MD's you should be astonished with the amount of DO residents in Mayo clinic and other high end programs and in many different specialties. Again not saying there are a lot but there are more then what you made it out to be. The chief medical officer of Rush Hospital is an osteopath along with the head physician of NASA. One of the most highly respected surgeon at John Hopkins is an osteopath and is the only one in the entire health system that can preform cranial reconstruction surgery not to mention he worked on the worlds first face transplant. There are more and more DO's specializing in medicine today in fields such as Gastro and Cardio then there ever were before. I believe once you start to work more and more in the medical field you will realize the respect between degree's is not as big of a factor. - You talked about how OMM has aspects which you think are absolutely trash but you never talked about any positives it might bring. As someone who has been skeptical of OMM at first when I interviewed at osteopathic programs I always asked the OMM fellows a clinical example of OMM working in the field and was truly amazed with some of the responses I got. So before you judge the practice I suggest talking to a highly experienced OMM physician that can tell you whats right from wrong. - You mentioned how DO schools are less competitive to get into. This is primarily true however this gap is not as large as you make it out to be and especially as it used to be. The one thing I cannot explain is its sudden rise in popularity. Here are the facts: DO schools are easier to get into and it is more of an uphill battle to match in a competitive specialty as a DO however this is due to a bias old school physicians have which in my opinion will decrease once a new generation of physicians take over. Overall MD>DO and if you have the opportunity you should pursue the MD degree over the DO degree. But sometimes it doesn't make sense to spend so much money and effort to improve your candidacy if the uncertainty of acceptance into MD schools increases with every year along with entrance requirements to both MD and DO schools. I wish this video was more neutral and delivered the facts in a way that did not shed osteopaths in a more negative tone.
Brandotopia absolutely. It's the best way to go. I've rotated at MD programs and DO programs and we are in the same boat (MD/DO) we all were on the same rotation.
Brandotopia I'm saying either way it doesn't matter. I have friends who have matched into plastics, gen surg, ENT, and many more. All MD residencies. My MCAT was a 33 and GPA was 3.76 and I chose a DO school. You could easily choose either way. Either way it doesn't matter and either way medical school sucks lol. My most important factor was $$$ of medical school. I also forgot to add. Several times my MD counterparts ask for spinal manipulation after long shifts or working out and lifting. No one ever said oh your a DO. No one gives a crap once your a doctor either. Not everything depends on the initials behind your name.
As both a CNA and an EMT I have noticed a difference between MD and DO in one specific circumstance, trauma medicine. I have noticed that SOME MDs will often will ignore the report of pre-hospital providers full stop, where as the DOs I have given report to tend to listen better. I think it comes down to DOs having to work harder to get respect from PTs and other staff that may not see them as fully competent compared to an MD. Not bashing on either, I've worked with absolutely fantastic MDs and stuck up DOs, but just sharing an experience from someone who has a different perspective on the topic.
emkarlstad DOs seem more humble on average due to the stigma. Great doctors on both sides. I wish the DOs would drop the quackery/stop naming their schools ridiculous names and move forward. Another huge factor that people don’t talk about is the difficulty of some demographics getting into medical school based on affirmative action.
Let me preface by saying I'm a DO in an ACGME psychiatry residency. I would say this video is accurate. I would also say that to get into an ACGME residency it is not always necessary to take the USMLE. I'm sure this was addressed in a previous comment, but didn't feel the need to read through the barrage of hurt feelings. I would like to say that this video (along with many other videos on this channel) are very helpful to future medical students in deciding their path. Controversial or not, these videos are a great source of information and are questions I had heading into medicine as well. Thank you very much for making the path a bit more clear.
It sounded like you were saying people with MD's are superior and you should've taken a more unbias approach whoever is reading this Dr. Mike does a great job at explaining the differences in his video "MD or DO: What's the difference and which is better"
Im planning on joining the military in order to get into medical school for Osteopathic medicine. Becoming a Flight Surgeon in the military is something what i dream on being, and i soleheartly wish to be one when before i turn 40 because i know that medical school takes years to complete
This video is inaccurate in some areas. So to clarify the errata: DOs do not have to take the USMLE to enter MD residencies. Some residencies will prefer the USMLE but that is entirely based on the individual institution. The vast majority of MD residencies accept COMLEX. And, the American Medical Association (AMA) took an official stance last week that both COMLEX-USA and USMLE are both equivalent exams in assessment. It will be interesting to see what this merger brings about in terms of board exams. The DO degree won't hold you back much these days. Yes, there are some residencies that still refuse to take DOs for whatever reason. But this video makes it seem like DOs don't have options for great residencies which simply is not the case. In fact, a lot of top programs take osteopathic candidates. For example, the Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic, which are ranked as the number 1 and number 2 hospitals in the United States for 2018-2019 according to US News and World Report, both take many DOs for their residencies (and I am not talking about their small community hospital affiliates). Now obviously there are more MDs than DOs at Mayo and CC, but that's because there are far more MD schools than DO schools creating larger numbers of competitive applicants. The GPA and MCAT gap between allopathic and osteopathic medical school matriculation is closing each year. If you look at average DO schools and average MD schools, their scores are about the same. If you look at prestigious MD schools and prestigious DO schools, the difference is larger. I agree that if you want to go into a competitive specialty such as derm or plastics you may want to pursue the MD degree over the DO degree. I also agree that craniosacral therapy should be thrown out of curriculum for osteopathic schools. It is mostly taught for heritage, but it honestly has no place.
My DO schools average for my year was a 511 MCAT and a 3.7 GPA. It also titters between 6000 applicants each cycle and having the Top COMLEX scores for DO schools in the nation AND requires all students to sit for the USMLE step 1. Class of 2016 placed 17 people into ortho and 3 into Derm. I've never seen a year where less then 5 people matched Ortho. Why anyone would choose a subpar MD school compared to a focused DO school who thrives on getting their students into competitive residencies is beyond me
Do you guys not realize the merger is going to hurt DO students? If DO students can’t have residencies specifically for them, it will be harder for them to get residencies when competing with all MD students.
I have been practicing osteopathy including cranial osteopathy for 25 years and it certainly works and changes lives. Next time you clock your head by accident you can do nothing and wait or call an osteopath that practices cranial manipulation and see which one helps you much quicker.
I think DOs and MDs have interesting differencs, but they're still pretty much the same. That being said, I would never do a DO because they're limited overseas and they still carry a somewhat negative stigma residency wise.
This is because some foreign trained DOs are not the same as American Trained DOs. They're more akin to chiropractors but the places that are aware of this disparity give DOs full-practice rights.
I’m not American or a doctor student but I agree with a lot of these comments about this just sounds like you’re bashing one and holding another one to a pedestal because you took it the idea is they are the same thing only one has extra because some people do believe that those practises still work. I also have a feeling that if it wasn’t best practice they wouldn’t still be allowed to practice it.
Hello! Thank you for the video. What is your opinion on a student attending D.O. school and taking the USMLE step exam. If they do well, are the chances improved for matching into desired residencies?
A lot of DOs here in the comments are very triggered by this video and calling it biased. But aren’t most residency adcom committees biased in a way? I think that its important for people to know that this bias still exist and its an important factor to consider when deciding between MD and DO. I think that this video is true, but so true that it is a hard pill to swallow for those who are already in a DO program. But just because its hard to swallow doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be said to the newbies who are deciding between MD and DO. P.S. I go to an MD school and I’m aware of this stigma because i’ve witnessed it being perpetuated by my attendings and my classmates. I wish it didn’t exist but its a reality you can’t ignore.
Yeah, so I just went through application process for DO and MD. You are spot on as far as DO schools taking lower scores as opposed to MD. I myself got a lot of love from DO schools and hardly any for MD. I have been in medicine for many years and was hoping my experience in medicine would offset any shortcomings on MCAT and/or GPA, but that is not the case regarding MD schools! In any event I did matriculate to an MD school so I am thankful it all worked out. Thanks for your videos. Anybody have any thoughts on Osmosis? Looks pretty compelling to me and worth the investment.
I'm not a medical student but from reading the comments and watching this video, some of you kinda don't get the true essence in being a doctor it's all about us the patients,we really don't care which school you attended and what path you choose to become a doctor as long as you care about us and make it your duty to provide the best treatment as possible. I admire doctors that really care about their patients they will go beyond to ensure the best for their patients. Too many time I visit the doctor and instead of talking to me and try to understand what is wrong with me they just want to hear my symptoms so they can just write me prescription which treat rather than cure don't get me wrong I've come across doctors that listen to me and provide the best cure they even suggest how I should take of myself so the issue do not reoccur, too much person become a doctor just for the pay and how prestigious it sounds to say you are a doctor hence why I'm happy that medical school is difficult.
Is it advantageous to one of the following if you your GPA is not to standards of allopathic: 1) apply ONLY to DO programs 2) apply to allopathic AND osteopathic?
Why go into DO when you are ultimately planning to join MD residences?? Why not just wait another year, get good MCAT scores and apply to MD schools? Or if you have chosen to go to a DO school, why not just stick to it and practice osteopathic medicine? Combining the two doesn’t make any sense, and the general public might be at a GREAT disadvantage considering they don’t know, in most cases, whether they are going to traditional MD doctor or a DO doctor.
Every year you take off is another six figures of income you lose in your life. Also, most people don't know exactly what type of medicine they want to practice before going to medical school, and many of those who think they know end up changing their minds after getting some exposure.
The general public will be at a great disadvantage when they're being seen by a Caribbean trained doctor but that is still allowable to some extent. Osteopathic medical students get the same curriculum as MD + extra hours of OMM like he mentioned in the video. There are a great deal of DO medical students who take USMLE and COMLEX if they are seeking a MD residency. With the merger, there will be more seats available to US MD grads. With DO's taking MD residency spots, there are always unfilled DO spots which can now open up to MD students post merger. But I really hope these spots don't go to Caribbean IMG's. IMG who went to school in their native countries come from credible institutions but not Caribbean.
+Aakash Sheth Please don't listen to Jaspreet Kaur. This is a troubled person that I called out the other day because they feel the need to spread lies and belittle the Caribbean because he/she suffers from insecurity issues. There are 13 United States curriculum based Caribbean schools that are accredited by the WFME. This person can't do rigorous research and could have taken the MCCEE and USMLE to try to match back into their native country Canada but this person is to self absorbed. I can tell now this person is extremely uneducated and bitter because he/she is an Canadian IMG DO.
Osteopathic manipulation is legit. Where many fail is in their explanation of the mechanisms by which they work. Also, we use techniques that are scientifically proven to speed recovery and reduce pain. Some of our techniques overlap with physical therapists and chiropractors, but that doesn't mean we use all of the same techniques... just some. In addition, we (at least, most of us) know when to use them. This is most important. As a physician, you must know when a treatment is indicated. Those that lose sight of this hurt the rest of us. Unfortunately, it happens... but, it happens with MD's too. Why do you think the opiod epidemic is so bad? Clearly someone wrote all those inappropriate prescriptions, and they weren't all DO's.
Osteopathy is not because he believed problems originated in the bones. It is because he believed structure and function are interrelated to optimal health. It had to do with the entire musculoskeletal system. Craniosacral therapy is a tiny portion of what OMM has to offer. Also, the idea that DOs are "less respected" is perhaps by MDs, but they also shit on each others specialties. Every patient I've seen just thinks "doctor" and most go to physicians based on reputation. And while DO schools may be backup to some, there are many that had it as first choice, and also many schools recruit based on mission statement. This entire video is disrespectful. Even though there are limitations as a DO, the video pushes the notion that you'll never be as good as an MD, which is patently false.
Is it true that modern medicine is controlled or largely influenced by big pharmaceutical companies, and that doctors are mostly under the rule of a medical hierarchy that ensures compliance to set rules and guidelines?
Jubal IF YOU COULD take in to account the amount of objective results from either a DO treatment or a MD treatment dependent on and equal to to each patients problems, which do you think would have more practical/positive outcomes. Love your videos! Working on my undergrad while I’m in the army than getting out to go into medschool. Thankyou for your knowledge!
As a D.O., I have never in any way felt disadvantaged by my Osteopathic Medical degree. I graduated from PCOM and trained at a highly competitive Internal Medicine residency program. My training in OMM has been a great advantage and I am frequently sought out by my M.D. cohorts to perform spinal manipulation therapy. I was accepted into both M.D. and D.O. programs and chose PCOM as I was highly impressed by the school and student body. Today, D.O. schools are more competitive then M.D. programs - do the research. If you want to be a physician, don't limit your choices based on antiquated beliefs.
What does a DO DO? :) Being serious my impression of the MD vs. DO is that it doesn't make much of a practical difference to the average patient. It seems like the DDS vs DMD comparison.
Awesome video as always! I come back to your channel because you provide a completely honest and transparent view of the medical field. It is unfortunate, but there really is a difference between how DO's and MD's are perceived, and their opportunities to match into certain programs/specialities. Dr. Jubbal, does the allopathic program you attend make a significant difference for matching outcomes in competitive programs?
I don’t think this video was biased at all. Everything you stated was true, and it is always useful to know the disadvantages associated with something.. especially before applying!
The first half of this is literally Wikipedia regurgitated. The second half of this is filled with inaccuracies. He states that DOs are “great for primary care.” Oh my god, please, that’s such an antiquated statement. Over half of my class matched into specialities, and a quarter of the students who went into IM from my school further subspecialized. And this is and has been the trend with DOs in general for over 10 years now. I’m not putting down primary care at all; we need more primary care doctors. And unless the two students from my school who matched into plastic surgery (one at Mayo) were the only 2 DOs in the nation to do so (which they weren’t), I highly doubt it’s as “massive” of a deal as this Wikipedia copier states that it is. He also fails to mention that these super competitive fields are very difficult for the average MD student to get into as well, and most MD students who want to do plastics and interventional radiology don’t get to either. DO schools do, on average, have lower average MCATs and GPAs, although there are at least 5 that I know of that have similar averages to typical MD schools. And the trend with MCATs and GPAs could not be more clear; in the near future DO schools will become just as competitive as MD schools as medical school admissions in general is becoming more competitive than ever.
I want to become a doctor when I'm older and I'm leaning more towards osteopathic. Seems like a better fit for me and I'm more on wholistic medicine and lifestyle changes instead of pills
I heard that some people may be biased against do in residency but it is slowly going away. In the er where I work at, the last two medical directors are do’s. Patients don’t care either if the physician is md or do and probably many don’t know/care about the difference.
So interesting, in New Zealand, where I previously lived, ostepaths do physical manipulations for MS reasons but are not dr's. In NYC where I now live, I've seen a number of osteopaths who advised they were dr's aswell which greatly confused me, but this explains it very well. I have a feeling that osteopaths being doctors is unique to the USA, although I could be wrong. Anyway great video👍🙂
MegKrish well they are doctors of osteopathic medicine (DO) in America. They aren’t the classic osteopaths, rather they are doctors with the same exact courses and training as MDs
Late reply, I apologize. I'm a DO student in the US and thought I could clear this up. DOs have nearly exactly the same training as MDs with additional coursework as stated in the video. However "osteopaths" outside of the US do not have this type of training. "Osteopaths" outside of the US would be called "chiropractors" within the US. It's an easy mistake to confuse Doctor of Osteopathy with a chiropractor if you're not used to terminology used in the US; both use physical and manipulative medicine, but many of the techniques are extremely different. Furthermore, chiropractors (osteopaths outside of the US) are not trained in medicine, and do not follow the same course trajectory as MDs. The similarity in naming to the international "osteopath" is unfortunate because most of the world simply does not understand the difference between an osteopath and a DO, and it is a contributing factor as to why American MDs have international practicing rights while DOs frequently do not, regardless of the nearly identical curricula.
@@hahahano2013 Well said, I would also add that as more countries become aware of the difference between their osteopaths and American trained DOs they are extending more practicing rights to American DOs
DOs are NOT osteopaths. This is something that the world needs to know. DOs are Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine who goes to medical schools listed in the World Directory of Medical Schools and goes through ACGME (MD) residencies of all medical specialties to become physicians. Foreigners need to educate themselves before trying to judge doctors. DOs are unique to the US. Osteopaths are found everywhere in the world. Clear?
Peace be to you! Thanks you so much for sharing this with us! I've been a medically licensed Physician Assistant for twenty years. I've always worked with the underserved in adult primary care medicine. I earned a Doctorate of Health Education from A.T. Still University and was fascinated with Dr.Still's background and paradigms! There is a PA-to-DO program at Lake Erire College of Osteopathic Medicine that is 3 years. I think it is a great opportunity for experienced PA s who would like to become Physicians.
Lots of DOs match into things like plastics, ortho, gen surg etc, its just generally because of training that osteopathic schools provide, DO students are generally more drawn to primary care specialties. But if ur a DO student and want to match something competitive, you definitely can :)
I understand that those who are DOs must feel like it's an uphill battle post degree. And I'll say that some DO primary care physicians are top rate. Some, I think have better people skills and are great for common conditions. However, for very specialized fields, as a patient I'm more comfortable with someone who has very scientific aptitude. When I see the average DO stats and see that DO schools are basically safeties if you can't get into MD, I'm less comfortable. That's not to say that someone who's a DO in a competitive specialty is weaker, they probably had to prove themselves after and they've earned it. But the latest stats that came out had average MCAT matriculants for DO at like 501 vs. 513 for MD? I'm gonna get a lot of downvotes for this, but that's a huge discrepancy. Unless the DO schools raise their standards after a merger, I just don't see how this would be fair to MDs.
DOs = 504, MDs = 511 (~70th percentile vs. ~90th percentile). Not that huge of a gap. Ultimately, medical students apply to residency and board scores are a major filter, so MCAT no longer bears any relevance. If you have a DO neurosurgeon, he or she likely met or exceeded the standards that MD neurosurgeons met.
I had questions about the differences when it comes to certain specialties. How hard is it to become an anesthesiologist or pathologist as a D.O. compared to getting matched into these programs as an MD?
There's another reason why it makes sense to rank D.O lower than M.D ---> Those 300 - 500 hours doing OMT? They are not free. Every hour that you spend studying something that doesn't work is an hour that you did not spend studying something that does. Even if D.O and M.D schools have "the same curriculum" in the sense of having the same list of topics and chapter headings, the only way for D.O. to spend 500 hours on OMM is for them to either (1) spend 500 fewer hours studying for the parts of the curriculum that works, or (2) take 500 more hours to complete their degree. Since my understanding is that D.O. degrees don't take longer to complete than M.D.'s, it follows that the M.D. has more training on the parts of the D.O. curriculum that matters.
"It follows that the M.D. has more training on the parts of the DO curriculum that matters." No. It just means that DOs are burdened with extra nonsense on top of the standard medical curriculum that is taught at both MD and DO schools. The education is completely standardized for both MDs and DOs because all MDs and a majority of DOs take the USMLE board exams. MDs do not receive extra education in place of the OMM that is taught at DO schools.
Thanks everyone for watching! This seems to be quite the controversial video (by our standards). After referencing several of my own Osteopathic friends and colleagues, we all agreed that everything in this video is 100% factual. In fact, they weren't offended in the slightest (and were confused why some people were), but a few commenters below seem outraged.
Yes, some OMM is great, and some of it isn't supported by science. Yes, it is definitely easier to get into DO schools than MD schools on average. Yes, it is harder to match into highly competitive specialties as a DO than an MD, even with the residency merger (but only time will tell). It's not impossible, in fact one DO student matched into plastic surgery my year (out of 150+ MD students). Possible, but much harder.
If you find yourself cursing at your screen, I urge you to consider watching the video again and assessing if anything stated was false or highly biased. My only regret, if I could redo this video, would be to have more disclaimers to avoid the anti-DO and anti-MD clusterf*** that is the comments below.
"Those who are easily offended should be offended more often.”
Yo, can you do a video on Podiatry schools?
I think it was your pretentious voice. That is fact. And no, D.O’s still get highly respected only people with low self esteem like you would suggest so. Get over it your approach was atrocious whether or not you were factual
Hey Mr. Jubal, I was wondering as you had mentioned this video in your latest release would you be able to do research into a, well very intensive specialty? I am thinking I may not be as academically competitive for an allopathic school, but I may be able to be accepted into an O.M.M. school. I have been rather, fascinated on the specialization of Hematology, would this be an option for a D.O.?
Yes this video is factual but the tone of your voice and the way you presented the video was straight up negative energy (it felt like you were ready to diss anything that's not MD).
@@PHILLYMEDIC69 tone and negative energy? As you said, the video is factual and clearly you 'felt' a certain way because you don't like the way the facts are presented? You can't please everyone... I hope that if you're a doctor that you treat with facts instead of feelings.
As a D.O. I never thought too much about the difference - my doctors in my hometown of Philly were D.O.'s so that is what I wanted to be. I applied to both MD and DO schools - got into 2 MD and 2 DO (rejected/waitlisted by 4 other MD - applied to both MD and DO to be safe). Chose the school where my family docs went to - PCOM. I matched at the Mayo Clinic for residency in psychiatry. In over 15 years of practice I have never had anyone show any disrespect towards DOs - maybe I am fortunate. I don't see how the patient would even know. Good doctors are good doctors.
Wow, there are people out there who are going the route I was considering. Donald, I recently decided on going the medical route for psychiatry instead of my originally planned PhD route. I have personally felt a greater connection to some of the DO schools I have been researching, but I have been concerned that pursuing a DO would disadvantage me in attaining a competitive psych residency. Have you experienced any difficulties in pursuing psychiatry as a DO?
Keifer Weiland You will have no problems! I applied for residencies at UVA, UMass, Yale, Mayo and UMinn. Matched at Mayo Clinic - my first choice. Fellowship stayed there but tough choice between Yale and Mayo (got lazy and didn’t want to move for a year :) Bottom line DO was no impediment to residency or your choice in psychiatry :) Good luck!!
Hey Donald a quick question if you’d be so kind:
I’m a pre med student and did a lot of research into MD and DO and came to the conclusion that DO is “better” than MD simply because in addition to being the exact same thing, DO does even MORE work with OMT. But people still think that MD carries better status. I get why that may be the case when it comes to higher residency match for MD-but I’m interested in General practice (I want to be the jack of all trades instead of limiting my self to one specialty). So given this, am I wrong to think that ironically, DO is better?
Good for you, you chose the better of the two. You were taught things m.d.s don't know and think they don't need to know, THATS WHY THEY CANT CURE ANYTHING. Hope you have great success.
@Open Sesame good for you. You must have good morals and a strong enough mind to see thru the brainwashing tactics. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing I was involved in the deaths of so many people. No amount of money or prestige is worth it.
As the founder of osteopathic medicine, I never taught cranio-sacral therapy. Ya'll have to ask Dr. Sutherland about that one.
@@johncook2820 OMM has sustained me through all these years. I am now but a therapeutic pulse, flowing through the fascia of the internet.
:D
😭😭😭
Glad to meet u here Dr. Taylor... am really honored
Dudee😂... I can't believe you ran off to create this account just to question who found Craniosacral therapy. Can't believe some of y'all are falling for it too.
I mean come on the video said the practice was founded in 1874.. That's like 148years ago😂. And Mr. Andrew Taylor still would probably have to be more older than that
DO here that matched interventional radiology.
For anybody watching this in 2021, I think this is a pretty solid, transparent comparison that is generally true, even now (3 years later.) And while not many DOs match things like plastics, derm, ortho, etc. it does happen every year & the numbers have been growing since the merger. In fairness though, not many MDs match those either; they are very competitive! I think there is still some residual bias, in particular maybe at upper-tier places, but it seems to be getting a lot better. For reference, In my graduating class alone this year, we had 3 IR matches, 1 derm, a couple ortho, 1 vascular, 1 ENT, a couple urology & other great matches at upper-tier places in EM & IM. I can speak from personal experience too that I interviewed at some pretty great programs in the T25 or so for DR (I applied IR & DR.) I think about 80% of our class matched residency programs that were originally ACGME accredited too (even pre-merger this number I think was about 75%.)
Like anything, there is a spectrum with respect to entrance scores (some DO schools have averages right up there with average MD schools, some less.) My schools’ averages are right up there with the averages of average MD schools.
With respect to board exams, my school actually outperforms the other MD schools in our region with respect to Step 1 & Step 2CK average scores & we have had about 1/3 of students sit for both COMLEX & STEP.
And for the OMM stuff... the techniques that overlap with PT/OT I think are great & work excellently. I agree 100% that the craniosacral stuff absolutely has to go. I think OMM overall would be more respected if we just tossed that. Even professors seem aware that it is an outdated teaching with no scientific basis. Outside of that it’s pretty useful & can at least help patients feel a bit better when they walk out the door, ya know? I don’t plan on using it personally beyond with friends/family with minor aches/pains but it is useful for that type of stuff.
But ya! DO schools - at least mine - do a good job at finding people who didn’t know what they originally wanted to do when they entered college & have all sorts of interesting back stories (e.g. I was in a small touring metal band for a few years & didn’t really try very hard when I first got to college.) They look for people who absolutely have the intelligence to be in medical school but found their passion late in the game. I think this is at least one of the reasons the stats are lower at DO schools overall (another big one being newer DO schools taking lower stat applicants too of course.)
If anybody has any more questions or anything I’d be happy to help answer some. Feel free to DM! I think MedSchooInsiders did a solid job though like I said above. Just wanted to add some anecdotal info from my experience & maybe add more context to the current (2021) state of things.
Hey, I recently got into a DO school. I want to match into DR, but I've also been thinking about IR. What do I need to do to stand out and match even if I do attend a DO school.
i know this is late but what DO program did you attend? i live in texas so i’m looking at TCOM UIWSOM and SHSU, two relatively newer programs so a little scared it might be difficult matching into IR
What DO programs have the best USMLE scores?
@@kushalnellore1588 an overall balanced app is the best app. Solid scores, grades, preceptor assessments, maybe a little research. Never forget your hobbies. Have a life outside of medicine & let it show on you app a bit. 75% of my interview questions were about my music background.
@@kingtrevi the school you attend doesn’t matter a lot, it’s your application that matters. You can build a strong application at any school you attend. Anecdotally, this isn’t really something that’s ever talked about in the rank meetings I’ve been a part of (for both diagnostic & interventional where I am). You could argue that older schools have a larger alumni network though which can help get you connected to programs you’re interested in if an alumnus is a resident or attending there though.
I went to MD's in the beginning, then after having horrible migraines and only given drugs my husband said he heard about this DO that was amazing. I went to him and he manipulated my spine while talking to me about monkeys. Result migraines gone and I later found out he out he often talked about monkeys to get you to relax. Our whole family switched to him. Best doctor in our area.
The monkey part is optional - but one of the entertaining parts is that OMT was partially discovered by A.T. Still trying to relieve migraines.
My buddy went D.O because he had a 527 MCAT and 4.0 GPA, they offered him a full ride for tuition and discounted room & board. The MD schools did not offer him anywhere close to that in AID.
He still matched into General Surgery and graduated from his residency this year. He was at the top of his class however, he said the majority of DOs at his school matched into FM, IM and Peds. Radiology is a big one now for them also, people want that work life balance. Some went on to do fellowships but later on. He is finally out of residency hell and got an offer of 350k plus production bonuses in the mid-west. Though he still always works about 60 hours a week minimum.
Where did he apply?
that smile from the beginning is haunting
I'm currently going to a DO school, and there is more to OMM than mentioned in the video. Although the thought process behind applying pressure to the skull changing the CSF circulation sounds very absurd, OMM is great for MSK issues like back pain. It's not just cranial. Also, if you look at most sports med doctors (even in the professional league), I would say a good amount is DO (not sure of the exact number). (Also, not all schools teach cranial OMM because it takes a lot of experience to master it apparently) I wouldn't use OMM in my practice to help someone with a lung carcinoma, but if I encounter a pt with back pain or shoulder pain, OMM is a great way to alleviate the pain. I'm not trying to bash on this channel. I'm actually a huge supporter but just wanted to clarify.
EstherJHKim there’s a place for both approaches.
Very well said.
The best thing about OMM is the simple and basic things that can provide immediate relief to almost everyone.
EstherJHKim OMM is very similar to chiropractic. They both were developed around the same time. Though every ancient advanced civilization has had comparable practitioners from back walkers to the bone setters of the Aztecs and Mayan people. Even Chinese medicine uses practices like acupuncture.
Med School Insiders it doesn’t seem that you understood her comment. She was saying that, while the original explanation of craniosacral therapy might be ridiculous, it can still be effective at relieving pain. You seem to be rejecting the therapy based on how people explain it, which is a silly reason to reject something. Even if the only reason it helps someone is because it’s relaxing, it can still be useful.
Michael - honestly, not a whole lot. The approach is a little different, the way they asses the patient is a little different, and the way they think about it are different, but they do many of the same things using similar techniques.
I don’t think this was intending to put DO schools down. I was considering going the DO route myself, but ended up going the MD route for a few of the reasons listed.
Peace be to you Adnan! I considered DO back in 93'. My ego wouldn't let me apply b/c of what this young man is discussing. Ironically, I became a Physician Assistant in 00' and eventually, earned a Doctorate of Health Education from A.T. Still University in 2012. Life is interesting.
Omar Abdul-Malik DHEd, MPAS, PA-C Peace be to you! It is interesting how life plays out!
Both MD Doctors and DO Doctors are great. Osteopathic Medical students are going into tough residencies and with the merger between MD and DO residencies soon, there will be less of a gap. Both take tremendous time, studying and effort to become. I know DO students who have gone into tough residencies such as, General surgery, Orthopedic surgery, Radiology, Ophthalmology and much more.
DO trained physicians are equally competent in patient care. The tone of the video implied that MD’s are superior because of they don’t use OMM and the incoming DO students have lower GPA’s on average. I’ve worked with a DO in oncology who was incredible. I wish there were more physicians like him. There should be caution in trying to frame DO as less desirable or easier, especially with the 2020 merger.
I don’t think the lower GPA is statistically significant. I do think that the lower MCAT is more significant. That said, I think the tests only help,determine who will be successful in school, not how good of a physician the person will be. My only real concern is the OMM seems like voodoo medicine to me.
I agree. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
I think it also has to do with how little known DO's actually are! I had no idea they existed until just 3 years ago, and I'm almost 23 and pre-med!
I am 72 and was delivered by an osteopath. I volunteered in an Osteopathic hospital. As a student nurse I attended a hospital program. Never saw the difference except the osteopaths were great with necks and backs. I had the feeling that the DOs were looked down on by the MDs. Once I got into the Navy---no difference. I had no idea who did what. The specialty residencies were no different for anyone. I guess I am still partial to the DOs because of orthopedic needs
That is changing. I see more and more DOs at hospitals. I prefer them over MDs quite frankly because their approach is more holistic. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
A word of encouragement to the DO students out there....and a word of CORRECTION to those who bash craniosacral manipulation:
I am a non-surgical musculoskeletal specialist MD, Cornell undergrad, SUNY Buffalo med school, Baylor for Medicine, then UT Southwestern Med School for PM&R, board certified in PM&R with sub-specialty board certification in Pain Medicine, and I assure you that OMM (including craniosacral manipulation) can be extraordinarily useful tools in pain management. I have been out of MD residency for 21 years, and, in the past twelve years, I have had 800 hours of training in OMM (including craniosacral), taught by DOs and by PTs who learned OMM from DOs. As a PM&R doctor, every work day of my career has involved my assessing the neuromuscular and musculoskeletal systems of my patients in some capacity. I have done over 7000 electrodiagnostic tests ("EMGs"), countless epidurals and other interventional pain management, procedures, a few hundred thousand trigger point injections, and I spend about 60% of my time doing OMM on patients. So trust me, because I know a LOT more about the validity of OMM and craniosacral manipulation than does the MD plastic surgeon who narrated this video: DOs can be great doctors who change lives. If you go to DO school, please take your OMM training seriously. Especially with the narcotic crisis, we need more docs who can heal people with their hands instead of prescribing addictive drugs. Now, go out there and change the world for the better.
Can you provide any research from a respected journal that shows OMM and specifically craniosacral manipulation works? I have no issue with OMM if people can show me the data but often it's n=1 or not a true scientific study.
Great sharing of knowledge. Thank you, doctor. One question:. My son is starting do schooling this year. One of specialty of interest is pm+r. Is there a site or book about this specialty you know of? So, he can be better informed before the time to match.
Thank you.
Thank you for adding your expert advice to this demeaning and largely incorrect video. I am a DO student very interested in OMM in OB patients. But this video is so full of nonsense from someone who clearly knows nothing about what true OMT is and can do. I truly appreciate your real life experience being shared on this post!
I once was told the difference between a DO and an MD is that DOs had fun and friends in college.
Ask a patient in V-Fib if he wants an M.D. or D.O. He wants someone who will help him period. From what I've seen, both are equally capable and there's virtually no difference in clinical practice, at all. Stupid debates like these detract from the reality of what our profession is and that is SAVING LIVES. Peace.
Couldn’t agree more!
Why are you asking a patient in v-fib anything lol
This seemed extremely biased and you failed to mention the residency merger that eliminates the separate residencies for DO and MD. You also failed to mention the tenets of osteopathic medicine...
1.The body is a unit; the person is a unit of body, mind, and spirit.
2.The body is capable of self-regulation, self-healing, and health maintenance.
3.Structure and function are reciprocally interrelated
4.Rational treatment is based upon an understanding of the basic principles of body unity, self-regulation, and the interrelationship of structure and function.
Osteopaths seek to treat the disease or illness rather than treat the symptoms. They take a more holistic approach, but in the end they are still doctors licensed to practice medicine just like any other doctor in the US and the discrepancies between the two degrees are slowly diminishing.
So are you saying that traditional aliphatic medical schools don't believe that the body is a unit, and that the body can self-heal? That's absurd. You're making huge generalizations. You also say that osteopaths treat disease rather than just the symptoms, ALL doctors do that. A holistic approach to medicine is not specific to osteopaths, and you're bashing medical doctors with illegitimate information. Maybe DO school is right for you, since you can't even count to 4 properly...
Robert Kurd I don't know why you are incapable of talking in a civil manner. I am in no way bashing medical doctors in my comment nor am I saying allopaths don't believe in any of the osteopathic tenets. I was simply stating what osteopaths emphasize. Also, yes, osteopaths do place a larger emphasis on a holistic approach than their allopathic counterparts.
Michael - the stigma may be present in the medical community, but it is not held by the general public. Most people do not even know when they are seeing a DO at the doctor's office because the continuity of care and training between the two degrees is virtually the same.
THANK YOU. I was almost going to share this. Good thing I watched this before.
Agreed!
The 2 best Physicians I’ve been associated with have been DO’S
Facts...it is simply a new versus old rule of thought
As a patient, I agree.
I agree. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
The stigma around DOs is still around but it’s quickly disappearing. The general public doesn’t know that DO students have lower gpa’s or MCAT scores so I doubt that’s the reason.
A DO told me that he thinks the stigma comes from DOs originally going to school for one year less than MDs. OMM is probably a part of it but because there is more of an emphasis on preventative/wholistic medicine patients feel that it’s a bit hokey when they’re suggested to change lifestyle habits instead of just taking a pill.
Also the MD and DO programs residency programs are merging. Going to a DO school doesn’t make it harder to land a good residency a program. The association comes from the lower scores on boards (that are rising).
The two programs are much, much more similar than they are different.
RR3Demos hahahaha this guy is a joke. Trolling soooooo hard. What are you making up for man?
RR3Demos I don't need to argue. I know you're compensating for your own deficits online. Why would I argue. I'll be making as much money as an MD. It's just entertaining to watch you try so hard. Baahahahaha. Also sucks for you if you even are a med student at Drexel. You gonna have to work around DOs! Hahahaha. Also I'll matching into an MD program. So I guess MD residencies suck?
RR3Demos I’m sure there are both DOs and MDs that aren’t tremendous practitioners but to counter your point, where are your arguments? A good MCAT and GPA do not mean someone will be a good doctor, no matter their classification. That’s why schools look for well rounded applicants. There is much more to being a good doctor and getting a good residency than just scores.
Med School Insiders I apologize for this being rather one sided. I didn’t mean to imply MD’s don’t recommend lifestyle changes/search for the root of a problem over going for a “quick fix”. Additionally, I said some things more bluntly than I wish I had but I do believe that nowadays a DO and MD the same scores and extracurriculars would be evaluated the same by a residency program.
I felt that some things were missed. I don’t have a problem with your criticism of OMM but I am curious what your reasoning is for having a hard time believing that cranial sacral therapy could work. I don’t know the specifics of the treatment but the body works in crazy ways, so who knows.
But I digress, another good video, thank you.
Osteopathic Medical Schools are still extremely difficult to get into. A great gpa and mcat is necessary, along with the rest of the usual resume that is required for MD schools.
All ya'll haters need to chill. Jubal is just spiting facts.
ok but he do be spitting fax doe
EXACTLY
In 2020 there will be no DO or MD residencies. They will be applying to the same residencies. All physicians MD or DO will be applying for the same residencies that will be under the AGME.
Also, both MDs and DOs treat the whole person. Please stop saying that's all DOs do. I know several MD preceptors that are into treating the patient as a whole. The only difference people are the initials behind the name. And the extra tools of omm in the bag.
DrDreams23 this is facts
I found this video annoying biased
@Bernie Sanders except MD students will need to take the COMLEX to apply to DO residencies, so they would have to learn OMM, I don't see any md student doing that any time soon
@Bernie Sanders well then, DO's have to step their game then.
Kate Dubrouskaya Med student applying for match this year. DO residencies do not require COMLEX in place of USMLE or OMM training. At least not at any of the programs I applied to.
DO schools could eliminate the stigma by simply ditching/disavowing the pseudo-scientific components of their teaching
I am a second year DO medical student and I do have to say that times are changing where people actually seek out osteopaths as their physicians rather than MDs. MDs represent the old school way of practicing medicine and many people have grown weary of less than satisfactory encounters with their doctors especially in the primary care fields. As DOs we are instinctively taught to use our hands to diagnose, something that you would be hard pressed to find in an MD physician. I would say we are more skilled in PE from that 500 hrs of extra practicing on each other, we already know what normal feels like on patients well before stepping into a clinic. From a patients perspective this is actually appreciated as being more thorough. We have a lot more hurdles to bypass bc we have to take both boards and we are learning an entirely separate curriculum alongside traditional medicine, but once you’re in practice, theres no such difference. I personally feel like this distinguishing label shouldn’t exist and only those who are interested in specializing in osteopathy should have to learn about it to this depth however being a DO i dont feel any less of a doctor than if I were an MD.
Would love to hear your thoughts about going the PA route.
It’s coming
Thank god! your facts and video’s really opened my eyes compared to any stats or advice I’ve been given elsewhere.
I am a PA and have been practicing for 12 years. I am considering going the DO route.
@@lth1228 Hi, I just applied to PA school, but I have always wanted to do Orthopedic surgery. I’m thinking of doing Med school after PA school since now the MCAT is very hard for me. Even with my 3.82 GPA
There is still quite a bit of secondary discrimination against D.Os. I found a wonderful osteopathic primary care doctor. When I had a serious infection and was directed to bed rest with antibiotics and painkillers, my employer refused to accept her doctor's letter because she didn't have M.D. after her name and therefore wasn't a "real doctor." Basically her medical practice was equated to homeopathic herbal medicine. I was told a letter from a licensed physician was required or my paid sick leave would be denied. After a lengthy conference call with the freaking state medical licensing board, my department manager finally grew past the ignorance to understand that a D.O. is indeed a licensed physician.
that is the most absurd thing i have ever heard..... why couldn't your employer just do a quick google search? look up your DO's license number? so sorry u had to deal with that
@@tdtadesse547 There are very few D.O.s where I live; most of my colleagues have never met one. There is however, a highly visible community of chiropractors and Chinese-medicine "doctors." The medical leave policy, which still hasn't been revised, specifically states that only a practitioner with a designation of M.D. may provide documentation. Office rumors abound of people who were abusing the leave policy by getting letters from chiros and Chinese herbal doctors, so I assume that's why the policy became so strict.
This comment is from 3 years ago. A lot has changed. I know DOs who are surgeons, I also know DOs who work in ERs, my obgyn was a DO. All excellent doctors. It also doesn't matter if it's easier to get into a DO school, this does not make them subpar doctors. There are MDs who are HORRIBLE doctors. It has nothing to do with how easy or hard it was for them to get into med school. Med school itself is academic. Residency and how you perform as a physician while taking care of patients is the gauge of a good doctor. Not their MCAT score.
I think there needs to be an update to this video as a lot has changed. The biases/misconceptions are slowly dwindling. It’s increasingly becoming very competitive to get into DO schools, and lesser proportions of DOs are now matching into primary care and going into more competitive specialties.
Totally agree.
Dr. Mike was good at creating awareness for DO doctors until he was at a yacht full of people while maskless in the middle of a pandemic.
A number of DO schools have GPA/MCAT averages similar to those of low-tier MD schools.
@@ibaadkhan2932 my comment wasn’t about numbers. GPA and MCAT are only a fraction of the requirements needed to be competitive, so I won’t just look at that. Most schools take a holistic approach and a lot of folks with a cumulative GPA of 3.5 get into top tier MD and DO schools. It’s not just about the numbers but the degree of competitiveness of an application and eventual matching into competitive residency programs around the country.
@@j572y479 Numbers certainly aren't everything, but they are important. GPA and MCAT are central to medical school admissions. No matter what lens you apply, attaining admission to any US medical school -- allopathic or osteopathic -- is extraordinarily difficult.
As a student at a DO medical school I have seen and heard the stigma against DO’s. At the end of the day, they are both physicians who are trying to do what is best for their patients. They both learn the same information (with the exception of OMT, which is a topic for another time), and they both take similar exams. DO’s actually end up taking more board exams (the USMLE and the COMLEX). This doesn’t make their path harder or the MD’s path easier, as there are probably other hurdles that MD’s must do through their medical education. I do feel as though the stigma that is against DO’s comes from the idea that DO schools are “easier” to get into. At the end of the day, yes, MCAT scores and GPA’s are probably lower for the average DO student then the average MD student. However, I personally do not believe that these are good measurements for how good of a doctor you will be. Do they matter, absolutely! I think they do indicate how well of a test taker you are, and odds are, if you scored well on the MCAT, you will probably do pretty good in med school. This is becoming a lot longer of a comment then I had anticipated but I just want to finish by saying, at the end of the day, go to the doctor that YOU are comfortable with. Don’t worry about the two letters after their name, if you like them and more importantly, trust them, then go to them. Its that simple.
The stigma is starting to recede. I see more and more DOs in hospitals. I know surgeons who are DOs. My obgyn who delivered my babies was a DO. All doctors. Same education and training as MDs but more of a holistic approach which is what modern medicine needs imo. All provided excellent care. The ER doctor who take care of my daughter last month was a DO.
NEGGED! But seriously, this came across as slap in the face to DOs. You made it sound like if you aren’t good enough for an MD you can do DO. Some of us are choosing to go the DO route
What made you pick DO? ( I ask this seriously- as I am curious, not trying to "bm" you)
The majority of DO students would not be able to get accepted into MD programs with their grades and test scores, end of story
I know 2 people in DO school and that literally why they went to DO school. They couldn't get into an MD school
I have 4.0 and DO sounds interesting, so speak for yourself kids!
@Bernie Sanders Degree doesn't matter. It's what you do after med school that counts. Calling DOs second class is a huge slap to the face to that entire community. Just because you go to an MD doesn't mean you're guaranteed more success than a DO, grades don't mean anything in the real world.
DOs also have a slightly different philosophy with a more holistic approach to medicine. They also seem to be more non trad friendly.
Yep. Unfortunately, medicine isn't a philosophy, it's a science.
@@theywalkinguptoyouand4060 But the philosophy led to many systemic changes within the science of diagnosis. Thoughts matter.
@@theywalkinguptoyouand4060 But a person isn’t just science. You have to remember, you’re treating a human being, not a disease.
I trust DOs more than MDs for primary care.
@@theywalkinguptoyouand4060 Medicine is holistic. Allostatic load, lifestyle, and overall wellness should be taken into consideration when evaluating health and the MD approach is far too focused on treating observable symptoms instead of creating the root causes of illness
Isn't there a residency merger occuring in 2020 though?
Yes!
There is!
CB Can you explain what that is?
Can someone explain what is this merger thing?
@Amy D. thanks a lot
5:10 "Now that we've went through the difference between the MD and the DO" The only real difference you told us about their studies was one time some people thought craniosacral therapy was a thing and this may or may not be taught to people on the DO path. Have you a video that goes into more detail comparing the curriculum?
Other than OMT/OMM, the curriculum is the exact same. Now every school does curriculum differently, but if you're a DO student and plan to take Step 1 (the MD board exams) you're going to learn the exact same material and take the exact same test. Essentially, DO = MD as far as curriculum, the bias is against the student, as DO stats tend to be lower than MD +90% of the time. But I say DO's rock because if you're not naturally gifted like an MD student, pass the same curriculum AND learn OMT on top of what MD student's are learning, you're a bad ass and I'd be happy to have you as my PCP.
@@alphaspartan or that could mean in order to master materials, IQs don't really matter unless it is extremely low.
Something that you forgot to mention is: “The Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) announced that by 2020, all MD and DO residency slots would be combined under a single accreditation system”.
Lol no clue why that was left out. That's incredibly important.
a hal seriously. Shows how biased the video was.
You didn't mention the merger
Pretty surprised he left that one out because it's perhaps the most important detail of the MD vs DO debate.
he conveniently left it out
Unless you're from the future, its too early to tell.
He talks about it in his most recent video so go check it out
JustTooLit hi! im from the future! and it happened. he still should’ve mentioned it as a possibility in the future. he has a very obvious personal bias, but the objective points he makes are good to make your own decisions
As a chronic pain patient, I can assure you that lack of osteopathic learning makes a helluva difference. My allopathic pcp was struggling to figure out what specialists to send me to because of my atypical symptom sets. While she was so much better than the other doctors because she incorporates wholistic physical science, when I began seeing her my understanding of my symptoms were greatly improved. However, she was learning from me because my research wasn't limited to what allopathy finds respectable. I was able to make connections that her training had caused to disconnect. However, when she finally referred me to a chiropractor, I finally began to experience treatments that both alleviate my pain and explore causation. Because of that, my chiropractor makes much better specialist references. She is more knowledgeable about biological system connections and helped me to pinpoint the actual problem areas. The improvements in my well being and health are clearly marked. Together with my allopathic doctor and personal research into natural form medicines, Im doing way better than any patient who took up the allopathic doctors recommendation of pain pills, because they don't know anything about preventative, nor nutritional medicine and pain pills exert the liver and kidneys with ongoing use. They don't cure anything at all. Allopathy hasn't dominated political "reputation" organically. Politics doesn't work that way.... So glad that more people aren't setting for the pills then die medicine anymore. Calling allopathy competitive while celebrating less understanding. In exactly what realm does this competition exist, but it clearly doesn't challenge medicine to do better for patients. I wish people who were pursuing healthcare just for status, money, and competition were weeded out in the education process instead of encouraged. They mess everything up.
I dont comment often on videos but I do feel the need to comment on this one. I just finished my 1st year at a DO medical school and while we are all taught OMM, many of us dont really intend to use it. We have licensed DOs that come to our school to teach us OMM but when we actually ask them if they practice it, not many actually do. Its just one of the hurdles that comes with attending a DO school. I can tell you that my goal is to be a doctor to help people, if I have to learn some OMM while getting there, its fine. But to say that DOs are any less competent or lesser doctors than MDs is just plain ignorant and bias. I encourage those of you that think this to actually meet a DO and see if theres any difference than an MD. Im glad Med School Insiders is very open on the discussion about this (check pinned post) and that while initially presented as some biased in the video, he addressed it so thank you for that!
Really interesting - I didn't know a bunch of what you've explained about D.O. school. You always do such a great job breaking things down in your comparison vids, man👌
Please do a video on the D.C. degree, or maybe not if you bash on Chiropractic Manipulation as much as you did on OMM in this one.
I'm glad to say that my Doctor of Chiropractic has saved me from 4 upper extremity surgeries in the past 2 decades!
Prior to me discovering chiropractic care, an M.D. butchered a foot surgery on me at the age of 22. He accidentally cut the nerve to my big toe and I've had arthritis in that toe now ever since.
Thus I'm not a fan of surgery unless I feel it's absolutely necessary. For neuromusculoskeletal issues, I always see my D.C. first nowadays.
Maybe I will do a DC video ! Thanks for the suggestion
@@MedSchoolInsiders
Yay! YW, Doc. TY for your prompt response.
I wonder if the look down on DO is going to change since the councils are merging now into one unit for accreditation.
I love your videos, they have helped me tremendously. However, if you don’t agree with the stigma against DOs you should not contribute to it, which is what I feel this video did. When I applied to medical school I was offered admission to both MD and DO schools and I thank my lucky stars I didn’t see this video when I had to make my decision, because I chose DO and I am so grateful that I did. I suggest that you invite a DO to your channel, that way you have both perspectives and can have a fair comparison and conversation. I would also suggest to your viewers that they should apply to both. It was on the interview trail that I discovered how much more I clicked with one school than another and one style than another and I would discourage limiting your scope out of fear of bias.
Could you touch on the residency merger that is taking place? From what I understand the MD vs DO difference is diminishing when it comes to matching into residencies...
Ben it is lol this guy just doesn’t know what he’s talking about
this merger may relegate DOs to even more primary care specialties
@@bruceylee8670 Clearly did not happen, based on statistics. 98% match rate this year despite pandemic; numerous surgical and other specialty matches.
@@bruceylee8670 This comment is from 3 years ago. A lot has changed. I know DOs who are surgeons, I also know DOs who work in ERs, my obgyn was a DO. All excellent doctors. It also doesn't matter if it's easier to get into a DO school, this does not make them subpar doctors. There are MDs who are HORRIBLE doctors. It has nothing to do with how easy or hard it was for them to get into med school. Med school itself is academic. Residency and how you perform as a physician while taking care of patients is the gauge of a good doctor. Not their MCAT score.
Both seems like awesome pathways 👍
Single accreditation (happening now - 2020) and regional specific preferences for residency/practice (especially for non-traditional applicants) are important topics to consider when choosing osteopathic vs allopathic medical school. (There are well-known regional preferences for DO applicants in residency). Furthermore, non-traditional students/applicants changing careers are generally preferably considered by osteopathic med schools.
This video gave me information of being a D.O which I’m aiming at! Thank you so much.
Nam Thần this video gave you misinformation
JustTooLit I’m collecting information and compare them so misinformation maybe useful somehow.
Hello! I'm a rising third year medical student. This video did not do a great job at all honestly. Let me know if you have any questions!
thank you so much.
I don't really feel strongly about going to DO or MD but I will say every doctor I've had that I loved, I knew they were DO before even looking at their suffix. They seem to prioritize whole health even in the ER whereas the MD's tend to ask me a few questions then prescribe serious medication shortly after even if I dont really need it. It's very strange.
I am an Osteopathic Student, OMS-III, and many of my colleagues had great MCAT scores and still chose a DO school over an MD school. That statement is so untrue. While DO schools are largely more open to students with lower scores, our schools are far from comprised of majority students with that profile. Lastly, I don't know who your friends are at DO schools that agree that Cranio-sacral Manipulation doesn't work! They are crazy! Perhaps they are the ones that never truly learned how to manipulate well.This is an extremely difficult treatment to learn, but immensely powerful and absolutely can effect the CSF of the brain even to the point of disruption of the vomiting centers (making patients throw up immediately) if not done properly. You should not be making videos about DO if you have not personally sat in our classes and manipulation lectures. Leave the dissemination of our philosophy and skill set to us. Thanks!
But he is right though. I mean stats are stats...
No one is saying you are a bad doctor.
Just that on the whole it is easier.
@@jamesmannsfield5699 no, he's not right. The stats are far from evenly distributed with majority of med students sitting for USMLE and that being the widely accepted and most known degree, but only 20% of med students taking COMLEX and the commonly accepted misconception that somehow our philosophy makes medical concepts easier. They are the same concepts, Dx and Rx plus over 300 hrs of OMM a year. Stats have to be equally comparable to be valid and these are not.
Kelly Scruggs
Again, not saying you are a bad doctor, as the MCAT is a worthless test. But the average MCAT for DO programs is around a 504, with the schools I have heard of around a 507. Still lower than pretty much all med schools. I mean averages and means, are averages and means. Also while I have heard of the 520 DO student who turned down a full ride to Harvard for AT STill, I have never actually met that person in life.
In the end it’s fine, we all match at the same programs, and I think the video did a great job trying to objectively say what we all already know with data.
AS far as OMM goes, I’ll look into it more, but I have personally never seen a DO utilize it.
@@davidausterman5915
Getting into MD school is still harder than getting into DO school.
The training aside from clinical rotation is very similar.
@@jamesmannsfield5699 *"aside from clinical rotation* is very similar." Have you been *through* either medical school to even know what either of the clinical rotations involve? Just asking. Also, can you enlighten me the same way on residencies?
I would love to see a video comparing teaching institution vs private practice medicine. Thanks for making content to consistently!
I am a D.O., now working as an attending physician for 6 years now. Before, during, and after college graduation, I was on a F-1 student visa. There were 3 allopathic medical schools who interviewed me. Saint Louis University, SUNY Upstate, and NYMC. I didn't get into any of them. I got the idea of applying to D.O. schools, when I noticed a Japanese citizen student on F-1 visa, who gained acceptance to a D.O. school. I did gain acceptance into a D.O. school. Going to St. George's was not even an option, as a F-1 student, in my case. During medical school, I definitely felt the discrimination and distrust from allopathic residency programs in competitive specialties and competitive academic locations, during my elective sub-internship rotations and residency interviews. I would say MBBS/MD graduates from foreign countries (India, China, South Korea, Japan, UK, Australia, Germany, etc) were more competitive than me for these residency interviews. One interviewer even told me so. I had the double trouble of getting a US residency as someone who needed a visa sponsor, and being a D.O. My medical school had a residency program which said they would accept me and sponsor my visa. But, I wanted to go somewhere better for me. I thankfully matched into an allopathic, non competitive specialty in 2009. I even managed to do 2 fellowships. Looking back, I note that my school still relies almost entirely on students paying tuition. It's expensive. There is no cheap, affordable D.O. school. Except maybe Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, but only for Michigan US greencard/citizens. I later learned from financial planners/insurance agents who market to medical residents, that D.O. graduates on average carry more debt vs US allopathic school graduates. I paid over $50,000 per year, and I graduated in 4 years on May 2009. There will probably never be a RCT to prove that OMM is clearly evidenced based treatment for a specific medical condition. The results vary so much on individual variation and skill. To note something ironic, I developed chronic pain in my right rib next to my spine, and below my right shoulder. The reason? A D.O. classmate did the Kirksville crunch on it, many times. I suffered with this pain for years. He and D.O. attendings told me, it's my studying posture. Funny, I never had the pain before. As of 2016, I no longer have this pain. So, OMM can hurt you, or it can help you. Not surprising, everything has a beneficial and adverse effect. D.O. students must miss out on something for spending so many hours on OMM. They do. They don't get class time on analyzing medical journal articles, doing clinical or laboratory medical experiments. I personally know no D.O. Ph.D.s. The D.O. physicians who I know of who are recognized for landmark medical clinical trials, sought extra training elsewhere, and always at an allopathic institution. Residency, fellowship, NIH. Our class valedictorian matched into an allopathic academic Urology residency, in a small town. I note that there are many new D.O. schools in rural America. This is wrong. I know they surely rely mostly on students paying tuition, and I know the students rotate far away from school or in small hospitals they have never heard of themselves. I know they are trying not to do primary care. Some of these schools are for profit. The federal government should regulate this from getting out of control. When I graduated in 2009, even the last ranked student had a residency spot. I'm not so sure that is true now in 2019-2020. With the ACGME merger, D.O. students will lose spots overall, and their protected D.O. only radiology, ophthalmology, ENT, urology programs will be lost. You speak facts, but I think your tone is sort of a problem. What are you saying about allopathic US medical school graduates who do a residency in a community hospital, with D.O. graduates and Caribbean MD school graduates? There is one advantage for D.O. graduates over Caribbean MD school graduates. I believe there is a way for the US military to compensate for the D.O. graduate's medical school debt (and of course the allopathic US MD graduate's medical school debt), but not for the Caribbean MD school graduate.
I also note that my school's 2 teaching hospitals were not academic centers. They were 2 community hospitals with several residency programs.
It is an uphill battle for the D.O. graduate.
Lastly, I note that some in similar situations as myself, returned to my home country of birth, graduated from medical school there, and returned to the US for medical residency.
I love your honesty thank you!
Let's be honest, everything he said in this video is 100% true. Let me ask all DO students this: If you were offered acceptance to a USMD school vs USDO, which would you have gone to? Under normal circumstances (I.e, no family issues, issues with distance, etc.), probably the USMD and if you try to say otherwise, you're simply lying to yourself. I'd go as far to say that the majority of people in DO schools are only there because they did not get into MD schools. The DO degree is great because it allows less competitive people the ability to become doctors. Some DO schools have an average MCAT less than 500. The USMD is more respected (in the medical community) and opens doors to specialties that are otherwise near impossible for DO's. Don't even get me started on the COMLEX vs USMLE.
No one is saying DOs are less competent than MDs. Never once was that mentioned. But seriously, the biggest problem with the DO community is that they don't want to accept their degree has limitations. Can you get into competitive specialties with a DO? Sure. But compare any MD school match list with any DO school match list and you'll see that DOs mostly match non-competitive primary care. There are even some programs that filter out DO applicants from their residencies.
TLDR; MD is better than DO if you want to go into something competitive. Facts. If you just want to be a doctor to help people, MD is equal to DO. You don't need to be smart to be a doctor, you just have to be hard working. Source: I'm a DO student.
jojokiri No?
I think the issue with DOs not being respected is some DOs don't respect their own field because the only reason some of them are in the program by default because they couldn't get in anywhere else. Those DOs who actually wanted to be in a DO program due to its theory are overshadowed by other settlers.
Agreed that if you want a competitive specialty, MD is the way to go, if given the option.
Personally, I want to do FM so I only applied to DO schools. Recently, a visiting clinician asked our lecture hall of OSMIIs how many people were interested in primary care and only ~15 out of 200 students raised their hands - I laughed out loud considering, statistically, >50% of our class will end up in FM or IM.
jojokiri
Actually Do is better because they do everything an MD does and more with osteopathic care. Sure specialty acceptance is one thing but I like jack of all trades
I am really not a fan of this video. While most of the information shown is true, the way it was presented was extremely biased and heavily puts down DO schools and osteopathic medicine. Please read below:
- You talked about how when you matched into plastics maybe one DO student matched that entire cycle. I find that truly hard to believe. If you look up DO schools most recent match lists (besides newer programs) such as DMU, LECOM, PCOM , OHCOM, CCOM, KCU and many others you will find at least one Otolaryngology match (if not more) so while yes it might be harder, you made it out to be impossible which isn't great.
- You talked about how DO's are not as respected as MD's. In every prominent hospital there are many osteopathic physicians and that number is growing. If you take into consideration the amount of DO's practicing compared to MD's you should be astonished with the amount of DO residents in Mayo clinic and other high end programs and in many different specialties. Again not saying there are a lot but there are more then what you made it out to be. The chief medical officer of Rush Hospital is an osteopath along with the head physician of NASA. One of the most highly respected surgeon at John Hopkins is an osteopath and is the only one in the entire health system that can preform cranial reconstruction surgery not to mention he worked on the worlds first face transplant. There are more and more DO's specializing in medicine today in fields such as Gastro and Cardio then there ever were before. I believe once you start to work more and more in the medical field you will realize the respect between degree's is not as big of a factor.
- You talked about how OMM has aspects which you think are absolutely trash but you never talked about any positives it might bring. As someone who has been skeptical of OMM at first when I interviewed at osteopathic programs I always asked the OMM fellows a clinical example of OMM working in the field and was truly amazed with some of the responses I got. So before you judge the practice I suggest talking to a highly experienced OMM physician that can tell you whats right from wrong.
- You mentioned how DO schools are less competitive to get into. This is primarily true however this gap is not as large as you make it out to be and especially as it used to be. The one thing I cannot explain is its sudden rise in popularity.
Here are the facts: DO schools are easier to get into and it is more of an uphill battle to match in a competitive specialty as a DO however this is due to a bias old school physicians have which in my opinion will decrease once a new generation of physicians take over. Overall MD>DO and if you have the opportunity you should pursue the MD degree over the DO degree. But sometimes it doesn't make sense to spend so much money and effort to improve your candidacy if the uncertainty of acceptance into MD schools increases with every year along with entrance requirements to both MD and DO schools. I wish this video was more neutral and delivered the facts in a way that did not shed osteopaths in a more negative tone.
Wouldnt the DO have lower requirments because the MD course has to many applicants vs DO?
Love the vids, considering D.O. school and would be interested in more of these videos. Thanks.
Brandotopia if you're more interested in a DO school. Reach out to a DO.
I have some D.O. and M.D. Surgeon colleagues I'm talking to right now, learning as much as I can.
Brandotopia absolutely. It's the best way to go. I've rotated at MD programs and DO programs and we are in the same boat (MD/DO) we all were on the same rotation.
Your saying D.O. is the best way to go?
Brandotopia I'm saying either way it doesn't matter. I have friends who have matched into plastics, gen surg, ENT, and many more. All MD residencies. My MCAT was a 33 and GPA was 3.76 and I chose a DO school. You could easily choose either way. Either way it doesn't matter and either way medical school sucks lol. My most important factor was $$$ of medical school. I also forgot to add. Several times my MD counterparts ask for spinal manipulation after long shifts or working out and lifting. No one ever said oh your a DO. No one gives a crap once your a doctor either. Not everything depends on the initials behind your name.
Osteopathic manipulation fixed things in my body that nothing else did.
As both a CNA and an EMT I have noticed a difference between MD and DO in one specific circumstance, trauma medicine. I have noticed that SOME MDs will often will ignore the report of pre-hospital providers full stop, where as the DOs I have given report to tend to listen better. I think it comes down to DOs having to work harder to get respect from PTs and other staff that may not see them as fully competent compared to an MD. Not bashing on either, I've worked with absolutely fantastic MDs and stuck up DOs, but just sharing an experience from someone who has a different perspective on the topic.
emkarlstad DOs seem more humble on average due to the stigma. Great doctors on both sides. I wish the DOs would drop the quackery/stop naming their schools ridiculous names and move forward. Another huge factor that people don’t talk about is the difficulty of some demographics getting into medical school based on affirmative action.
Let me preface by saying I'm a DO in an ACGME psychiatry residency. I would say this video is accurate. I would also say that to get into an ACGME residency it is not always necessary to take the USMLE. I'm sure this was addressed in a previous comment, but didn't feel the need to read through the barrage of hurt feelings. I would like to say that this video (along with many other videos on this channel) are very helpful to future medical students in deciding their path. Controversial or not, these videos are a great source of information and are questions I had heading into medicine as well. Thank you very much for making the path a bit more clear.
Thank you for keeping it real Eric
It sounded like you were saying people with MD's are superior and you should've taken a more unbias approach
whoever is reading this Dr. Mike does a great job at explaining the differences in his video "MD or DO: What's the difference and which is better"
Im planning on joining the military in order to get into medical school for Osteopathic medicine. Becoming a Flight Surgeon in the military is something what i dream on being, and i soleheartly wish to be one when before i turn 40 because i know that medical school takes years to complete
Don’t give up becoming a doctor.😊
You forget to mention MD schools that accept "donations " for admission. I won't say which school wanted a donation from my family for an acceptence.
Say it
This video is inaccurate in some areas. So to clarify the errata:
DOs do not have to take the USMLE to enter MD residencies. Some residencies will prefer the USMLE but that is entirely based on the individual institution. The vast majority of MD residencies accept COMLEX. And, the American Medical Association (AMA) took an official stance last week that both COMLEX-USA and USMLE are both equivalent exams in assessment. It will be interesting to see what this merger brings about in terms of board exams.
The DO degree won't hold you back much these days. Yes, there are some residencies that still refuse to take DOs for whatever reason. But this video makes it seem like DOs don't have options for great residencies which simply is not the case. In fact, a lot of top programs take osteopathic candidates. For example, the Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic, which are ranked as the number 1 and number 2 hospitals in the United States for 2018-2019 according to US News and World Report, both take many DOs for their residencies (and I am not talking about their small community hospital affiliates). Now obviously there are more MDs than DOs at Mayo and CC, but that's because there are far more MD schools than DO schools creating larger numbers of competitive applicants.
The GPA and MCAT gap between allopathic and osteopathic medical school matriculation is closing each year. If you look at average DO schools and average MD schools, their scores are about the same. If you look at prestigious MD schools and prestigious DO schools, the difference is larger.
I agree that if you want to go into a competitive specialty such as derm or plastics you may want to pursue the MD degree over the DO degree. I also agree that craniosacral therapy should be thrown out of curriculum for osteopathic schools. It is mostly taught for heritage, but it honestly has no place.
My DO schools average for my year was a 511 MCAT and a 3.7 GPA. It also titters between 6000 applicants each cycle and having the Top COMLEX scores for DO schools in the nation AND requires all students to sit for the USMLE step 1.
Class of 2016 placed 17 people into ortho and 3 into Derm. I've never seen a year where less then 5 people matched Ortho. Why anyone would choose a subpar MD school compared to a focused DO school who thrives on getting their students into competitive residencies is beyond me
Please re upload with less bias and more facts/features of DO like the MERGER kthx
Agreed
Do you guys not realize the merger is going to hurt DO students? If DO students can’t have residencies specifically for them, it will be harder for them to get residencies when competing with all MD students.
I have been practicing osteopathy including cranial osteopathy for 25 years and it certainly works and changes lives. Next time you clock your head by accident you can do nothing and wait or call an osteopath that practices cranial manipulation and see which one helps you much quicker.
What's the difference between OMM and Chiropraxis??
I think DOs and MDs have interesting differencs, but they're still pretty much the same. That being said, I would never do a DO because they're limited overseas and they still carry a somewhat negative stigma residency wise.
This is because some foreign trained DOs are not the same as American Trained DOs. They're more akin to chiropractors but the places that are aware of this disparity give DOs full-practice rights.
Please do a video on the DPM degree
I’m not American or a doctor student but I agree with a lot of these comments about this just sounds like you’re bashing one and holding another one to a pedestal because you took it the idea is they are the same thing only one has extra because some people do believe that those practises still work. I also have a feeling that if it wasn’t best practice they wouldn’t still be allowed to practice it.
Hello! Thank you for the video. What is your opinion on a student attending D.O. school and taking the USMLE step exam. If they do well, are the chances improved for matching into desired residencies?
MD always has slightly more chance to match to a competitive specialty. Doesn't mean DO can't.
A lot of DOs here in the comments are very triggered by this video and calling it biased. But aren’t most residency adcom committees biased in a way? I think that its important for people to know that this bias still exist and its an important factor to consider when deciding between MD and DO. I think that this video is true, but so true that it is a hard pill to swallow for those who are already in a DO program. But just because its hard to swallow doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be said to the newbies who are deciding between MD and DO.
P.S. I go to an MD school and I’m aware of this stigma because i’ve witnessed it being perpetuated by my attendings and my classmates. I wish it didn’t exist but its a reality you can’t ignore.
Yeah, so I just went through application process for DO and MD. You are spot on as far as DO schools taking lower scores as opposed to MD. I myself got a lot of love from DO schools and hardly any for MD. I have been in medicine for many years and was hoping my experience in medicine would offset any shortcomings on MCAT and/or GPA, but that is not the case regarding MD schools! In any event I did matriculate to an MD school so I am thankful it all worked out. Thanks for your videos.
Anybody have any thoughts on Osmosis? Looks pretty compelling to me and worth the investment.
Did u graduate almost?
@@hi-mj5oi I did
@@bpoole99251 Good stuff
So basically I can’t even a cardiologist with a DO I have to be MD in order to get in cardiology residency? I’m confused
I'm not a medical student but from reading the comments and watching this video, some of you kinda don't get the true essence in being a doctor it's all about us the patients,we really don't care which school you attended and what path you choose to become a doctor as long as you care about us and make it your duty to provide the best treatment as possible. I admire doctors that really care about their patients they will go beyond to ensure the best for their patients. Too many time I visit the doctor and instead of talking to me and try to understand what is wrong with me they just want to hear my symptoms so they can just write me prescription which treat rather than cure don't get me wrong I've come across doctors that listen to me and provide the best cure they even suggest how I should take of myself so the issue do not reoccur, too much person become a doctor just for the pay and how prestigious it sounds to say you are a doctor hence why I'm happy that medical school is difficult.
Is it advantageous to one of the following if you your GPA is not to standards of allopathic:
1) apply ONLY to DO programs
2) apply to allopathic AND osteopathic?
Why go into DO when you are ultimately planning to join MD residences?? Why not just wait another year, get good MCAT scores and apply to MD schools? Or if you have chosen to go to a DO school, why not just stick to it and practice osteopathic medicine? Combining the two doesn’t make any sense, and the general public might be at a GREAT disadvantage considering they don’t know, in most cases, whether they are going to traditional MD doctor or a DO doctor.
Every year you take off is another six figures of income you lose in your life. Also, most people don't know exactly what type of medicine they want to practice before going to medical school, and many of those who think they know end up changing their minds after getting some exposure.
The general public will be at a great disadvantage when they're being seen by a Caribbean trained doctor but that is still allowable to some extent. Osteopathic medical students get the same curriculum as MD + extra hours of OMM like he mentioned in the video. There are a great deal of DO medical students who take USMLE and COMLEX if they are seeking a MD residency. With the merger, there will be more seats available to US MD grads. With DO's taking MD residency spots, there are always unfilled DO spots which can now open up to MD students post merger. But I really hope these spots don't go to Caribbean IMG's. IMG who went to school in their native countries come from credible institutions but not Caribbean.
+Aakash Sheth Please don't listen to Jaspreet Kaur. This is a troubled person that I called out the other day because they feel the need to spread lies and belittle the Caribbean because he/she suffers from insecurity issues. There are 13 United States curriculum based Caribbean schools that are accredited by the WFME. This person can't do rigorous research and could have taken the MCCEE and USMLE to try to match back into their native country Canada but this person is to self absorbed. I can tell now this person is extremely uneducated and bitter because he/she is an Canadian IMG DO.
Any time anybody immediately dismissed another practice? You have to suspect their motives.
Definitely applying to both.
Good luck!
a hal thanks!
@@Low_pH did u get in
@@hi-mj5oi yes I'm a 3rd year medical student right now
@@Low_pH im proud
I don't really see how manipulation is not legit. Isn't it similar to chiropractic work?
Osteopathic manipulation is legit. Where many fail is in their explanation of the mechanisms by which they work. Also, we use techniques that are scientifically proven to speed recovery and reduce pain. Some of our techniques overlap with physical therapists and chiropractors, but that doesn't mean we use all of the same techniques... just some. In addition, we (at least, most of us) know when to use them. This is most important. As a physician, you must know when a treatment is indicated. Those that lose sight of this hurt the rest of us. Unfortunately, it happens... but, it happens with MD's too. Why do you think the opiod epidemic is so bad? Clearly someone wrote all those inappropriate prescriptions, and they weren't all DO's.
@@micahshook6422 excellent comment.
Interesting. One of my ortho surgeons is a DO... maybe it depends where you’re from
Oh come on Dr. Juubao you have to do better, give D.O’s the respect they deserve
Osteopathy is not because he believed problems originated in the bones. It is because he believed structure and function are interrelated to optimal health. It had to do with the entire musculoskeletal system. Craniosacral therapy is a tiny portion of what OMM has to offer.
Also, the idea that DOs are "less respected" is perhaps by MDs, but they also shit on each others specialties. Every patient I've seen just thinks "doctor" and most go to physicians based on reputation. And while DO schools may be backup to some, there are many that had it as first choice, and also many schools recruit based on mission statement.
This entire video is disrespectful. Even though there are limitations as a DO, the video pushes the notion that you'll never be as good as an MD, which is patently false.
Very biased and not so useful, this time you made a video way below your usual level
You sound salty, lmao, DO is the lesser of the two
Is it true that modern medicine is controlled or largely influenced by big pharmaceutical companies, and that doctors are mostly under the rule of a medical hierarchy that ensures compliance to set rules and guidelines?
No
Jubal IF YOU COULD take in to account the amount of objective results from either a DO treatment or a MD treatment dependent on and equal to to each patients problems, which do you think would have more practical/positive outcomes.
Love your videos! Working on my undergrad while I’m in the army than getting out to go into medschool. Thankyou for your knowledge!
Thank you so much
From someone who went to a DO school. Don’t go to a DO school. Find a way to go to a US MD school
Why
@@worldsavior2543 Because it makes life way easier. DO should only be an option when US MD isn't.
That is silly. If you are a good student then either is fine. If you are a good resident then it also doesn’t matter.
Success is based on the small decisions that are made daily!
Get an MD degree and then become an orthopedic surgeon. Congratulations! You are now both MD and D.O.
That's... not how it works.
As a D.O., I have never in any way felt disadvantaged by my Osteopathic Medical degree. I graduated from PCOM and trained at a highly competitive Internal Medicine residency program. My training in OMM has been a great advantage and I am frequently sought out by my M.D. cohorts to perform spinal manipulation therapy. I was accepted into both M.D. and D.O. programs and chose PCOM as I was highly impressed by the school and student body. Today, D.O. schools are more competitive then M.D. programs - do the research. If you want to be a physician, don't limit your choices based on antiquated beliefs.
What does a DO DO? :)
Being serious my impression of the MD vs. DO is that it doesn't make much of a practical difference to the average patient. It seems like the DDS vs DMD comparison.
Awesome video as always! I come back to your channel because you provide a completely honest and transparent view of the medical field. It is unfortunate, but there really is a difference between how DO's and MD's are perceived, and their opportunities to match into certain programs/specialities. Dr. Jubbal, does the allopathic program you attend make a significant difference for matching outcomes in competitive programs?
Thank you!
I don’t think this video was biased at all. Everything you stated was true, and it is always useful to know the disadvantages associated with something.. especially before applying!
The first half of this is literally Wikipedia regurgitated. The second half of this is filled with inaccuracies. He states that DOs are “great for primary care.” Oh my god, please, that’s such an antiquated statement. Over half of my class matched into specialities, and a quarter of the students who went into IM from my school further subspecialized. And this is and has been the trend with DOs in general for over 10 years now. I’m not putting down primary care at all; we need more primary care doctors. And unless the two students from my school who matched into plastic surgery (one at Mayo) were the only 2 DOs in the nation to do so (which they weren’t), I highly doubt it’s as “massive” of a deal as this Wikipedia copier states that it is. He also fails to mention that these super competitive fields are very difficult for the average MD student to get into as well, and most MD students who want to do plastics and interventional radiology don’t get to either. DO schools do, on average, have lower average MCATs and GPAs, although there are at least 5 that I know of that have similar averages to typical MD schools. And the trend with MCATs and GPAs could not be more clear; in the near future DO schools will become just as competitive as MD schools as medical school admissions in general is becoming more competitive than ever.
If you are looking to become a general practitioner and do family medicine would DO be a good option?
Yes.
I want to become a doctor when I'm older and I'm leaning more towards osteopathic. Seems like a better fit for me and I'm more on wholistic medicine and lifestyle changes instead of pills
I heard that some people may be biased against do in residency but it is slowly going away. In the er where I work at, the last two medical directors are do’s. Patients don’t care either if the physician is md or do and probably many don’t know/care about the difference.
So interesting, in New Zealand, where I previously lived, ostepaths do physical manipulations for MS reasons but are not dr's. In NYC where I now live, I've seen a number of osteopaths who advised they were dr's aswell which greatly confused me, but this explains it very well. I have a feeling that osteopaths being doctors is unique to the USA, although I could be wrong. Anyway great video👍🙂
MegKrish well they are doctors of osteopathic medicine (DO) in America. They aren’t the classic osteopaths, rather they are doctors with the same exact courses and training as MDs
same in Europe! Osteopaths are not physicians. Interesting! Here students like me will become full blooded doctors.
Late reply, I apologize. I'm a DO student in the US and thought I could clear this up. DOs have nearly exactly the same training as MDs with additional coursework as stated in the video. However "osteopaths" outside of the US do not have this type of training. "Osteopaths" outside of the US would be called "chiropractors" within the US.
It's an easy mistake to confuse Doctor of Osteopathy with a chiropractor if you're not used to terminology used in the US; both use physical and manipulative medicine, but many of the techniques are extremely different. Furthermore, chiropractors (osteopaths outside of the US) are not trained in medicine, and do not follow the same course trajectory as MDs.
The similarity in naming to the international "osteopath" is unfortunate because most of the world simply does not understand the difference between an osteopath and a DO, and it is a contributing factor as to why American MDs have international practicing rights while DOs frequently do not, regardless of the nearly identical curricula.
@@hahahano2013 Well said, I would also add that as more countries become aware of the difference between their osteopaths and American trained DOs they are extending more practicing rights to American DOs
DOs are NOT osteopaths. This is something that the world needs to know. DOs are Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine who goes to medical schools listed in the World Directory of Medical Schools and goes through ACGME (MD) residencies of all medical specialties to become physicians. Foreigners need to educate themselves before trying to judge doctors.
DOs are unique to the US. Osteopaths are found everywhere in the world. Clear?
Peace be to you! Thanks you so much for sharing this with us! I've been a medically licensed Physician Assistant for twenty years. I've always worked with the underserved in adult primary care medicine. I earned a Doctorate of Health Education from A.T. Still University and was fascinated with Dr.Still's background and paradigms! There is a PA-to-DO program at Lake Erire College of Osteopathic Medicine that is 3 years. I think it is a great opportunity for experienced PA s who would like to become Physicians.
Lots of DOs match into things like plastics, ortho, gen surg etc, its just generally because of training that osteopathic schools provide, DO students are generally more drawn to primary care specialties. But if ur a DO student and want to match something competitive, you definitely can :)
I’m thinking more DO school 🥼✨
I understand that those who are DOs must feel like it's an uphill battle post degree. And I'll say that some DO primary care physicians are top rate. Some, I think have better people skills and are great for common conditions.
However, for very specialized fields, as a patient I'm more comfortable with someone who has very scientific aptitude. When I see the average DO stats and see that DO schools are basically safeties if you can't get into MD, I'm less comfortable. That's not to say that someone who's a DO in a competitive specialty is weaker, they probably had to prove themselves after and they've earned it. But the latest stats that came out had average MCAT matriculants for DO at like 501 vs. 513 for MD?
I'm gonna get a lot of downvotes for this, but that's a huge discrepancy. Unless the DO schools raise their standards after a merger, I just don't see how this would be fair to MDs.
DOs = 504, MDs = 511 (~70th percentile vs. ~90th percentile). Not that huge of a gap. Ultimately, medical students apply to residency and board scores are a major filter, so MCAT no longer bears any relevance. If you have a DO neurosurgeon, he or she likely met or exceeded the standards that MD neurosurgeons met.
Every DO I know couldn't get into an MD program and didn't want to go to Mexico or Caribbean for school.
How many do you know? One? perhaps two?
I had questions about the differences when it comes to certain specialties. How hard is it to become an anesthesiologist or pathologist as a D.O. compared to getting matched into these programs as an MD?
not hard at all. anesthesia and patho are not considered competetive specialties.
There's another reason why it makes sense to rank D.O lower than M.D ---> Those 300 - 500 hours doing OMT? They are not free. Every hour that you spend studying something that doesn't work is an hour that you did not spend studying something that does. Even if D.O and M.D schools have "the same curriculum" in the sense of having the same list of topics and chapter headings, the only way for D.O. to spend 500 hours on OMM is for them to either (1) spend 500 fewer hours studying for the parts of the curriculum that works, or (2) take 500 more hours to complete their degree. Since my understanding is that D.O. degrees don't take longer to complete than M.D.'s, it follows that the M.D. has more training on the parts of the D.O. curriculum that matters.
"It follows that the M.D. has more training on the parts of the DO curriculum that matters." No. It just means that DOs are burdened with extra nonsense on top of the standard medical curriculum that is taught at both MD and DO schools. The education is completely standardized for both MDs and DOs because all MDs and a majority of DOs take the USMLE board exams. MDs do not receive extra education in place of the OMM that is taught at DO schools.