I've stolen a commander indefinitely with Captivating Vampire once (it's _mostly_ there as a lord). Only lasted a couple of turns before it died, but I did it.
trivia on changing the replacement effect to a state-based action: obviously it makes death-commanders better, so it makes sense design-wise (even though they template it perfectly in Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero) but it was also because Shivam played Elenda, the Dusk Rose at a convention and had been playing it wrong for years
I'll contribute to your nightmares by adding more ways that your commander can be waylaid! 1: If your commander gets exiled while your opponent is controlling you (e.g. Mindslaver), they're the ones who get to choose to move it to the command zone or not! 2: If Out of Time is a creature by the time it's ETB ability resolves, it phases itself out and nothing can ever phase back in!
Thats actually great that you get a card that can actually steal a commander for a turn like that. Yes you can use actual stealing effects but this is novel!
Necromantic Selection and Danse Macabre do the same trick. And Desertion is a counterspell that also steals the spell before it ever touches the graveyard.
Thanks for tackling this one Dave! I saw a lot of discourse online about this ruling when the card was spoiled. Hopefully this will quell all the confusion. I’ll be sure to point people here if need be
Yeah, there are a few ways to steal a commander now. It's fun and I do it almost whenever I read that the is cool, or when Someone needs to be stopped hard!
Could you rule on Marvin, Murderous Mimic and Sakashima the Imposter? A few others have reviewed this interaction, but Id like to see your breakdown of it
I admit I was kind of avoiding this one specifically because a lot of other creators have done it, and I wasn't sure what else there was to add. Is it really worthwhile for me to cover something that so many others have before?
I was under the understanding that any time a commander changed zones you could return it to the command zone, is there another rule for other zones or does shuffling it into the library actually work?
For putting it into your library or hand, returning it is a replacement effect. A long time ago you could shuffle an opponent's commander into their library to get rid of it, but eventually they removed the "tuck rule" by adding this. For putting it into exile it your graveyard, returning it is a state based action. More recently, it used to be a replacement effect as well, but that stopped death triggers so they changed it. Since state based actions aren't checked until after the spell finishes resolving, it will no longer be in the graveyard anymore so you won't be able to return it. There is no rule to let you return it if it's put onto the battlefield. 903.9a: If a commander is in a graveyard or in exile and that object was put into that zone since the last time state-based actions were checked, its owner may put it into the command zone. This is a state-based action. See rule 704. 903.9b: If a commander would be put into its owner's hand or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5. 704.3: Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step's first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
How old am I that there are literally people who don't remember EDH before Wizards took it over? The format was originally called Elder Dragon Highlander, and the commander was originally called the general. It was invented by fans, so when WotC saw how popular it was and wanted to start printing products specifically for this format, they had a problem. It wasn't proprietary enough. So they rebranded it as "commander" so that they could trademark the name. Many players who remember the origins of the format still use the old terms, though.
Ok, I read it thinking it was a reflexive trigger upon the spell resolving "IF a creature was put into the graveyard this way". That would have triggered SBAs and let the Commander be moved to the CZ in response, correct?
Im looking at leyline of resonance if you target a creature with a sorcery you cast the spell twice. What about the sorcery witchs mark? Discard a card and draw 2 and create a wicked role and attach it to a creaure. Would the targeting be part of the card so the card is double cast or would just the creating the role be the effect of the card and is done independently not causing the spell to double cast?
You don't cast the spell twice, you copy it and the copy is created already on the stack. That means you only get one process trigger. Targeting is a part of the spell effect. It would be a separate trigger if it instead said something like "when you do, create a wicked role attached to up to one target creature you control". Unfortunately, discarding a card is also part of the effect rather than an additional cost (presumably since they wanted to make it optional) so you don't get to skip discarding like you would if you instead cast Sazacap's Brew.
Hi, i had one interaction to ask maybe it can be answered in later episodes. So let's say i have leyline of anticipation on the battlefield. I have 10 cards in my hand including a hollow one and discard 3 at the end of my turn as a result of max hand being 7. Is there a time for me to cast hollow one for 0 mana or does it go straight to opponent's upkeep.
someone correct me if i'm wrong but 514.3 says no player gets priority during cleanup step so you wouldn't have the chance to cast the hollow one however 514.3a specifies that during cleanup the game does check for state based actions and triggered abilities, then gives priority after the triggered abilities go on the stack so in a normal case you would not be able to cast the hollow one then but if you discard a card like bartered cow or any card with madness you could cast hollow one for 0 mana
@korwin9476 yes. Players only get priority during cleanup if a trigger goes on the stack. Once the stack is clear and we pass out of that cleanup step, we have another one. This keeps happening until nothing triggers, then we go to the next turn. Plenty on loops with The Gitrog Monster utilize this rule when discarding lands to hand size. Another interesting thing is that "until end of turn" effects and damage on creatures both wear off during the cleanup step. If you discard a Alchemist's Greeting to hand size, you can kill a creature that had a Titanic Growth cast on it earlier in the turn.
Milling is a keyword action, going to the graveyard is the result of the action. The keyword action was performed on those cards even if that action put them into exile instead of graveyard, so triggers off that keyword action work. But the cards did NOT go into the graveyard, so triggers off that result do not work.
@@jerodast the question I was implying is, while the result is the same, the rulings to get there were different between this video and the video regarding "cards milled this way"
@@cool_scatter Been watching youtube for hours and this was the only video that I had to turn up. It's actually not new. This channel is always lower for some reason
Can we get an explanation of how many times abilities are gained when Sakashima the Imposter copies Marvin please? As far as I can tell, it’s a nice one for explaining dependency loops
Used to be, but committee thought it wasn't fair that players had to choose, so they changed it. The best example I remember is O ring abilities with this rules change.
When Enduring Tenacity dies to my Come Back Wrong, does it come onto my board as a creature or an enchantment? When I sacrifice it, does it return to its controller as an enchantment?
@@alicetheaxolotl Exactly. The Tenacity's ability will try to bring it back, but it'll no longer be in the graveyard when it resolves. When it dies under your control, its ability returns it under its owner's control.
So, steal the commander and then blink it so you don’t have to sacrifice it and keep the opponent’s commander completely. Because if you blink it, it isn’t the same creature anymore that needs to be sacrificed.
Only if you use a blink effect that actually puts it back into play on your side, e.g. Cloudshift. Most blink effects put cards back into play "under their owners control", meaning your opponent in this case.
@@behemoth9543 It think would have to be an blink with no wait before it returned too, otherwise it being in exile would allow the player who's commander it is to retrieve it to their command zone as a state based action (it's still their commander) once the spell finished resolving.
Idk what's up with the few people that are inclined or happy to exile a person's commander forever in a game but I'm incredibly glad I don't play against those shitbags and makes me very thankful I have a cool friend group for Commander lol
Pretty extreme to call someone a shitbag for the way they legally play a card game. Everyone has things they hate to see; extra turns, land destruction, stacks, ect. I'm sure there is something you play that someone else would hate, but since it's you playing it it's fine right?
If someone wants to call me a shitbag for playing a group hug, D&D themed deck, a Haakon deck, or an owling mine deck, all of which have the bare minimum removal, then by all means keep calling me a shitbag. In the mean time, if someone is going to prevent me from playing a Commander I'm incredibly excited to play with, I'll continue to keep calling them a shitbag.
@@bwrpwrummm yea that's exactly what I put in my OP. If by some god forsaken reason I'm put into a situation where I have to play with randoms and one of them does that shit, they're a shitbag. I'm not backing down from that philosophy, and if you want to call me part of the problem then you have every right to.
Trick scenario. The Commander Rules Committee is illogical so the actual ruling would be whatever the table agrees. Many initial bans had nothing to do with power level of the cards but instead the affordability at the time of the ban. The stated reasoning at the time was to preserve the casual nature and approachability of the format. Adjusting for inflation there are many cards that are significantly more expensive than those in the initial ban list were at the time of creation. I.e. Mox Diamond, Gaea’s Cradle The lack of subsequent bans for this reasoning undercuts the original bans. Illogical. The CRC believes maintaining a list of “Banned as Commander but Legal in the 99” is too “Complicated” for Magic the Gathering players. But the game they play is Magic the Gathering with interactions like are covered in these videos. A List is too complicated? Illogical. Abolish the Commander Rules Committee
@@nixthenamed Judge Dave literally explained in this video that the "clearly defined" rule governing this interaction was indeed changed by the Commander Rules Committee whose legitimacy OP is questioning, and OP compares this decision (again, mentioned directly in the video) to another decision he has an issue with. It may be an argument you disagree with or don't want to concern yourself with, but "irrelevant" seems like the wrong objection.
@@jerodast The rules for every format change every time a set releases. You don't have to like the rules, or that they change, but that has nothing to do with the answer to this question which is clearly defined by the current rules. It's in no way a trick scenario, and this is the actual ruling.
By using Obeka or Sundial, you can keep the commander forever. Prepare to have a vendetta against you for the rest of the game if you do, though.
I've stolen a commander indefinitely with Captivating Vampire once (it's _mostly_ there as a lord). Only lasted a couple of turns before it died, but I did it.
Of course, if your opponent concedes, they can deny you their Commander if you've screwed them over too harshly. So use caution in who you steal from!
@@Snow_Fire_Flame Can't say I've ever seen a spite concede like that, but I'll agree that it could happen.
Wouldn't it get sacrificed the next time you have an end step?
@@Utenlok Technically yes, but you can just keep activating Obeka/Sundial to end the turn before you hit your end step.
trivia on changing the replacement effect to a state-based action: obviously it makes death-commanders better, so it makes sense design-wise (even though they template it perfectly in Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero) but it was also because Shivam played Elenda, the Dusk Rose at a convention and had been playing it wrong for years
This is triggering my nightmares of having my commander stuck in exile by having it's delayed blink effect stifled
At least they have to sacrifice it here which means you get to CZ it at their end step.
I'll contribute to your nightmares by adding more ways that your commander can be waylaid!
1: If your commander gets exiled while your opponent is controlling you (e.g. Mindslaver), they're the ones who get to choose to move it to the command zone or not!
2: If Out of Time is a creature by the time it's ETB ability resolves, it phases itself out and nothing can ever phase back in!
i'm a fan of using an animated Out of Time to permanently phase out all creatures including commanders 😊
Cool! As a fan of playing the game, I hope you keep your shenanigans on the other side of the game store from me. Please and thank you.
Thats actually great that you get a card that can actually steal a commander for a turn like that. Yes you can use actual stealing effects but this is novel!
There’s another famous example. Look up necromantic selection
Necromantic Selection and Danse Macabre do the same trick.
And Desertion is a counterspell that also steals the spell before it ever touches the graveyard.
With the new archenemy rules, I was wondering how Daybound/Nightbound works with the odd turn structure.
Thanks for tackling this one Dave! I saw a lot of discourse online about this ruling when the card was spoiled. Hopefully this will quell all the confusion. I’ll be sure to point people here if need be
So Come Back Wrong DOES give you their commander? And then its sacced at your next end step, right?
Yeah.
I got this one wrong.
.
.
.
.
I thought it was a replacement effect, but the explanation at the end for why it's not makes a lot of sense! Thanks!
It's a replacement effect only when moving the commander to the hand or library 😅
@@Franciscomeirajr Oh yeah! I knew there was some replacement effect thing happening still!
Rules are hard
Regarding the last bit, Child of Alara was the premier example of why the rule was changed, i half expected it to show up on screen, lol
Yeah, there are a few ways to steal a commander now. It's fun and I do it almost whenever I read that the is cool, or when Someone needs to be stopped hard!
Could you rule on Marvin, Murderous Mimic and Sakashima the Imposter? A few others have reviewed this interaction, but Id like to see your breakdown of it
I admit I was kind of avoiding this one specifically because a lot of other creators have done it, and I wasn't sure what else there was to add. Is it really worthwhile for me to cover something that so many others have before?
I was under the understanding that any time a commander changed zones you could return it to the command zone, is there another rule for other zones or does shuffling it into the library actually work?
For putting it into your library or hand, returning it is a replacement effect. A long time ago you could shuffle an opponent's commander into their library to get rid of it, but eventually they removed the "tuck rule" by adding this.
For putting it into exile it your graveyard, returning it is a state based action. More recently, it used to be a replacement effect as well, but that stopped death triggers so they changed it.
Since state based actions aren't checked until after the spell finishes resolving, it will no longer be in the graveyard anymore so you won't be able to return it.
There is no rule to let you return it if it's put onto the battlefield.
903.9a: If a commander is in a graveyard or in exile and that object was put into that zone since the last time state-based actions were checked, its owner may put it into the command zone. This is a state-based action. See rule 704.
903.9b: If a commander would be put into its owner's hand or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.
704.3: Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step's first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
Am I missing something or is this guy unhinged for calling a commander a general.
How old am I that there are literally people who don't remember EDH before Wizards took it over?
The format was originally called Elder Dragon Highlander, and the commander was originally called the general. It was invented by fans, so when WotC saw how popular it was and wanted to start printing products specifically for this format, they had a problem. It wasn't proprietary enough. So they rebranded it as "commander" so that they could trademark the name. Many players who remember the origins of the format still use the old terms, though.
@@JudgingFtW get with the times gezer, the future is now. Jkjk ty for the PSA.
Ok, I read it thinking it was a reflexive trigger upon the spell resolving "IF a creature was put into the graveyard this way". That would have triggered SBAs and let the Commander be moved to the CZ in response, correct?
Yeah
Im looking at leyline of resonance if you target a creature with a sorcery you cast the spell twice. What about the sorcery witchs mark? Discard a card and draw 2 and create a wicked role and attach it to a creaure. Would the targeting be part of the card so the card is double cast or would just the creating the role be the effect of the card and is done independently not causing the spell to double cast?
You don't cast the spell twice, you copy it and the copy is created already on the stack. That means you only get one process trigger.
Targeting is a part of the spell effect. It would be a separate trigger if it instead said something like "when you do, create a wicked role attached to up to one target creature you control". Unfortunately, discarding a card is also part of the effect rather than an additional cost (presumably since they wanted to make it optional) so you don't get to skip discarding like you would if you instead cast Sazacap's Brew.
Hi, i had one interaction to ask maybe it can be answered in later episodes. So let's say i have leyline of anticipation on the battlefield. I have 10 cards in my hand including a hollow one and discard 3 at the end of my turn as a result of max hand being 7. Is there a time for me to cast hollow one for 0 mana or does it go straight to opponent's upkeep.
someone correct me if i'm wrong but 514.3 says no player gets priority during cleanup step so you wouldn't have the chance to cast the hollow one
however 514.3a specifies that during cleanup the game does check for state based actions and triggered abilities, then gives priority after the triggered abilities go on the stack
so in a normal case you would not be able to cast the hollow one then but if you discard a card like bartered cow or any card with madness you could cast hollow one for 0 mana
@korwin9476 yes. Players only get priority during cleanup if a trigger goes on the stack. Once the stack is clear and we pass out of that cleanup step, we have another one. This keeps happening until nothing triggers, then we go to the next turn.
Plenty on loops with The Gitrog Monster utilize this rule when discarding lands to hand size.
Another interesting thing is that "until end of turn" effects and damage on creatures both wear off during the cleanup step. If you discard a Alchemist's Greeting to hand size, you can kill a creature that had a Titanic Growth cast on it earlier in the turn.
I don't see how this differs from the "from among the cards milled this way" ruling
Milling is a keyword action, going to the graveyard is the result of the action. The keyword action was performed on those cards even if that action put them into exile instead of graveyard, so triggers off that keyword action work. But the cards did NOT go into the graveyard, so triggers off that result do not work.
@@jerodast I think you're answering a question nobody asked.
@@jerodast the question I was implying is, while the result is the same, the rulings to get there were different between this video and the video regarding "cards milled this way"
Volume is very low Judge.
Fine for me. Check your settings.
Disagree.
@@cool_scatterAgree.
@@cool_scatter Been watching youtube for hours and this was the only video that I had to turn up. It's actually not new. This channel is always lower for some reason
Can we get an explanation of how many times abilities are gained when Sakashima the Imposter copies Marvin please?
As far as I can tell, it’s a nice one for explaining dependency loops
Attack on Cardboard covered that question recently.
I did Bad. I assumed the commander moving to the command zone was a replacement effect 😅
It used to be and that made dies triggers not work
Used to be, but committee thought it wasn't fair that players had to choose, so they changed it. The best example I remember is O ring abilities with this rules change.
When Enduring Tenacity dies to my Come Back Wrong, does it come onto my board as a creature or an enchantment? When I sacrifice it, does it return to its controller as an enchantment?
It will come back to your side as a creature. When you sacrifice it, it will go back to your opponent as an enchantment
@@alicetheaxolotl Exactly. The Tenacity's ability will try to bring it back, but it'll no longer be in the graveyard when it resolves. When it dies under your control, its ability returns it under its owner's control.
Yeah. Come Back Wrong happens during it's resolution whereas the Enduring Tenacity ability is a trigger that goes on the stack afterwards.
So, steal the commander and then blink it so you don’t have to sacrifice it and keep the opponent’s commander completely. Because if you blink it, it isn’t the same creature anymore that needs to be sacrificed.
Only if you use a blink effect that actually puts it back into play on your side, e.g. Cloudshift. Most blink effects put cards back into play "under their owners control", meaning your opponent in this case.
@@behemoth9543 It think would have to be an blink with no wait before it returned too, otherwise it being in exile would allow the player who's commander it is to retrieve it to their command zone as a state based action (it's still their commander) once the spell finished resolving.
Idk what's up with the few people that are inclined or happy to exile a person's commander forever in a game but I'm incredibly glad I don't play against those shitbags and makes me very thankful I have a cool friend group for Commander lol
Pretty extreme to call someone a shitbag for the way they legally play a card game. Everyone has things they hate to see; extra turns, land destruction, stacks, ect. I'm sure there is something you play that someone else would hate, but since it's you playing it it's fine right?
If someone wants to call me a shitbag for playing a group hug, D&D themed deck, a Haakon deck, or an owling mine deck, all of which have the bare minimum removal, then by all means keep calling me a shitbag. In the mean time, if someone is going to prevent me from playing a Commander I'm incredibly excited to play with, I'll continue to keep calling them a shitbag.
@@Jedicake Then you are indeed the problem since you could always just not play with folks whose tastes don't match your own. No need to name call.
@@bwrpwrummm yea that's exactly what I put in my OP. If by some god forsaken reason I'm put into a situation where I have to play with randoms and one of them does that shit, they're a shitbag. I'm not backing down from that philosophy, and if you want to call me part of the problem then you have every right to.
Trick scenario. The Commander Rules Committee is illogical so the actual ruling would be whatever the table agrees.
Many initial bans had nothing to do with power level of the cards but instead the affordability at the time of the ban. The stated reasoning at the time was to preserve the casual nature and approachability of the format. Adjusting for inflation there are many cards that are significantly more expensive than those in the initial ban list were at the time of creation. I.e. Mox Diamond, Gaea’s Cradle The lack of subsequent bans for this reasoning undercuts the original bans. Illogical.
The CRC believes maintaining a list of “Banned as Commander but Legal in the 99” is too “Complicated” for Magic the Gathering players. But the game they play is Magic the Gathering with interactions like are covered in these videos. A List is too complicated? Illogical.
Abolish the Commander Rules Committee
None of that is relevant to this question, for which the rules are clearly defined
Jesse what the fuck
@@nixthenamed Judge Dave literally explained in this video that the "clearly defined" rule governing this interaction was indeed changed by the Commander Rules Committee whose legitimacy OP is questioning, and OP compares this decision (again, mentioned directly in the video) to another decision he has an issue with. It may be an argument you disagree with or don't want to concern yourself with, but "irrelevant" seems like the wrong objection.
@@jerodast The rules for every format change every time a set releases. You don't have to like the rules, or that they change, but that has nothing to do with the answer to this question which is clearly defined by the current rules. It's in no way a trick scenario, and this is the actual ruling.