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They should have done the following. 1. Split CEDH and EDH format into two categories. 2. Do the bannings to the EDH side leaving Competitive EDH to still use the cards. 3. Defend against the flack.... BUT... In this case the cards still have somewhere to be played. CEDH using the same ban list as EDH is ridiculous.
Remember this does affect the whole community. This is a massive financial hit for LHSs', which may affect your area. It does make edh a better format though.
I only have 2 of the 4 banned, only dockside is in a deck, and it wasn't even particularly important to it and can easily be replaced. The butthurt is REAL
People send death threats to people for a lot less supporting XYZ political stand point, liking an artist, and such hell I liked jk rawlings book and got a death threat on Facebook. People on the internet don't have to be worried about being punched in the face.
On the bright side, your proxy of Dockside can now be neat confetti! Or a coaster! Part of an amalgam of other cards that you hard-cast into a custom game table with resin!
Yeah it's a real shame, but in reality it's only probably a very tiny handful of people who do those things, my first guess is it would be people who collect magic cards more for monetary value than for play, I could be wrong I haven't even been playing a year yet.
You joke, but I've heard the conspiracies from the finance bros that this exact thing IS going to happen (bringing the "forced rotation" of Modern to Commander).
Yup that would be what will happen. Turn jeweled lotus into a locus creature (that costs one or two mana) that has to tap and sacrifice to get the three mana for the commander Make mana tomb the land tomb that costs one or two mana but every time you activate it for its two mana you lose two life And then for the dockside replacement you get a kobold that when at the beginning of your upkeep you get X treasures *tapped* equal to the amount of artifacts your opponents control. Might as well not include the enchantment clause.
said it before and will say it again Nadu, Jeweled Lotus, and Dockside Extortionist are the reason why WOTC should stop desigining specifically for commander. People will find broken stuff to do with 1v1 cards like they have pre-Throne of Eldraine era, so there's no need for spoon-feeding us with unnecessary powercreep.
@@vividwavers I continue to believe the CRC should have banned Jeweled Lotus on release. Send a message to Wizards that printing cards that hurt the format is unacceptable.
@@wavesofbabies the thing is that Jeweled Lotus, while objectively quite incredibly powerful on release, wasn't *truly* over the line right away- rather, it was a card that continued to get more powerful as time passed
@wavesofbabies CAG member Benjamin Wheeler has said that Jeweled Lotus was already seen by the RC when it was still in development and the RC said "no, don't do that" was ignored. It's fundamentally a telling off of WotC.
@@TheInverseable Yes. Nobody wants death threats, much less for a volunteer job. Also I am sure the members of the RC joined because they wanted to contribute to the joy commander gave people. Now imagine those people that you wanted to give joy to...start to threaten your life. At that point the reason for your joining has been removed in addition to your safety being threatened.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege Would the outrage be lessened if they reprinted Crypt and Lotus en masse? The result on the card price would be similar, I imagine, but it would make the cards more ubiquitous. However, like you mentioned at the start: This ban DOES make the format more healthy, so if the choice inevitably results in upsetting people, then the choice that makes the format healthier is likely the better choice, though I agree they should have done more due diligence before banning it.
Seriously, people like that are weak-minded and overly-sensitive if they really resort to death threats because some pieces of cardboard got banned from official games. It's honestly pathetic.
@@Scattman101it's because they lost money, which is still a terrible reason. They created a market around the rules of the game where the rules are subject to change. This shit happens in the stock market daily.
I’ve always had a rule that if I open a card worth over $100, I’ll sell it immediately bc I need the money more than a fully-optimized deck. Edit: In case you didn’t know there’s this cool thing called limited, and that’s where I open 99.99% of my packs. I’m not gambling on these things, y’all.
I’ve always been happy about these kinds of bans, because I would never play cards I knew were worth too much money, and knew the cards were too strong for the format.
Yeah...if the card is that much and not a numbered collectors item or something, there's a supply issue that hopefully will be addressed before long. In a standard set, the best cards should go for around $25-30 while in print. In a premium set, maybe they go up to $50, but any time the demand ends up being too high, WoTC should be increasing supply bc they are selling points and it will bring their value on the secondary market down.
I'm looking to get into paper commander. In your experience, are proxies generally accepted? Any unwritten rules about proxies? I'm looking to beef up some precons to make them function more harmoniously rather than stomp.
@@Diomedan12432in official Tournaments proxies are banned and as i heard some LGS are also Not allowing proxies. I Play proxies for almost 5 years know and for me personally it makes playing Commander so much more fun. The reason is mainly i can sit down, build a Deck, Print Out the cards and If I don't Like the Deck, i have spent 10 bucks and Not 250. I also never Had an issue before that people didnt want to Play with me because of the proxies. If i sit down with some i havent played with before, i disclose that i use proxies and ask If theyre okay with it. So far i havent Made the experience that someone Had an issue with that. I think IT also depends in what you're proxing for some people. If you Just have all available Staples in your Deck I can understand why people could be upset. If you built a Deck that hast synergies and have an ocassional Proxy in there, i think you will be fine. I think the best advice is, try it Out , be honest with the people you're playing with and try to Match the Power Level of your Play group. :)
@@Diomedan12432 If you set down with me I don't care what you've got as long as we agree to it ahead of time. Once had two kids sit down with notebook paper written with card names on it. Of course that time It was very hard to tell board states lol.
But was this an official watchlist, or your version of a watchlist? Pretty sure they (RC) clarified that there is no watchlist and there will be no watchlist. Talked about, yes; watchlisted, no.
@@SirSmudgeProductions But the reality is that the RC stated that Dockside had been in discussions for some time over whether or not banning Dockside was a good move. The fact that it had to sit on the fence is statement enough.
Reprint everything till no card is worth more than $20. Edit: I should clarify, I am just referring to the cheapest version of any card. You can spend as much as you want on vintage/premium cards.
I've been saying the same thing for years. It's a TRADING Card Game. Collecting is a part of the game, but not the sole objective. The cards are meant to be played, which would depreciate their value by actually being played. Oh the days of playing at the lunch table with no sleeves, no playmat, and storing the cards in zip-lock bags
@@Keck282I had a cardboard deck box not a ziplock! … to store the cards that regularly just scraped against the pavement when I moved them around or tapped them playing on the asphalt at lunch 😂
Why not just tell your friends or have commander decks with the rule of every card has to be under 20$? No one will open boxes of MTG if booster boxes value are 1/4th the price of the cost.
Does anyone else ever look at themselves and their friends and see kind, cool players and then ask, "Who is sending these harassing messages?". Every time I see these reactions, I wonder who in their right mind would react this way?
People in pain will do and say a lot of things they wouldn’t do normally. Some are attached to our luxury cardboard and don’t/won’t/can’t regulate their reaction.
I have a strong feeling most of the harshest messages are from people buying to sell rather than play but can for sure see some players going too far sadly, we all know that one guy we played with at one point who had their op combo stopped and just scooped and rage leaves its that type who do these things.
At the end of the day, if you want to play the cards at your home table, just have a rule 0 conversation with your table as to whether or not you guys want to play those cards and have something ready to swap out if the answer is no, and be on with it. Awesome perspective Prof, thank you for your level-headedness in such a wild time.
@@arthurpotter9092 so collect it, what do I care? Why then prices change depending on bans? I don't see muscle cars losing 80% of their value if there's a new regulation or road rule? So with magic cards it sounds more like speculation to me
@@AlleonoriCat its not speculation. In order to get cards, you either gamble/ buy packs or you buy singles. Singles will have a price based on how many of them are available and how many people want them. IE, its an economy, where supply and demand dictate a cards price. No matter how you look at it. You can think its dumb. You can belittle it. But at the end of the day, if someone wants a card to use/ collect. they have to spend money.
I blame WoTC exclusively. They continue to make uber powerful staples for commander then wildly short printing them. They’ve also heavily incentivized many people to start treating this game as a financial investment with the serialized, variations, secret lairs etc they continue to churn out that fetch high prices until their usefulness diminishes. I hate the fact cardboard costs more than my college tuition. I literally have to choose whether to keep up with a card game OR continue to pay for my education when, 10 years ago, that wouldn’t even be close to an issue. They’re building a game for the 1% and until we see it and stop supporting it things will only get worse. The disgusting responses to these bannings have completely soured my view of the community as a whole and now they’re no better than LoL players. Change is desperately needed and it needs to come asap.
You do know that the second most powerful mana rock after the Crypt and the Lotus is under 2$ and is printed in every single Precon right? And it's about as prone to cause explosive turn 1 and snowballing into the win? Price of the card and its supply should never be a reason behind whether we ban the card or not
I already checked out of paper magic years ago because of this sort of thing. I exclusively play with friends over virtual tabletop, and rarely will break out my existing paper decks.
I can understand how Mana Crypt came into being, but the other three should've never seen the light of day. Crypt was printed in the early days of the game, when they hadn't quite figured things out, plus routinely taking a bolt to the face was far more dangerous back then, since every format had a starting total of 20 life. -You mean to tell me no one at WoTC looked at Nadu and said "That guy goes infinite?" -Dockside Extortionist. A card that instantly pays for itself, providing ramp and a creature, effectively for free. -A zero-cost artifact called __________ Lotus. I don't even need to look at the card to know it's trouble, but do they really think that restricting it to only casting THE CARD YOU BUILT YOUR DECK AROUND was that difficult a restriction? These are not mistakes. This is Wizards/Hasbro, deliberately lobbing grenades without regard to collateral damage to the game.
Dont think WotC quite anticipated dockside was. Came in a random precon. Once they realised what it was though, they treated like the extremely valuable chase card it was.
Did you read the article about Nadu? If you frame the other cards around the perspective offered in that article about the card design process it's easy to see how certain "made for commander cards" can slip through the cracks.
It's lazy design on Wizards. Take a broken card and just slap a commander restriction on it. designing specifically for commander allow us to recycle old designs with simple commander paint. What next, a set of 5 commander moxes that each add a single color only spendable on commanders. a timewalk that only works if your commander is in play.
I kind of feel like the RC deliberately banned Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus because they were so expensive. Everyone can afford Sol Ring, but in a table of casual players the one deck with one of those rocks has a massive advantage that most casual players can't afford to match.
Yeah, the impression I got is that he disagreed with the decision to not inform the CAG and that he would rather not be involved at all. We don’t know, of course, but it makes sense to me. I wouldn’t stay on either. He got a huge amount of blame and zero input in this case, so why would he stick around?
Yeah he said in the pod cast that he felt like they didn’t trust any of members of the CAG thus them being left in the dark. Which in and of itself is a very disheartening act to the members.
honestly hated josh being on CAG, especially after the video he released regarding bans. He's explicitly against any banning even if the cards are detriment to the format.
Might have been a combination of the two. They messed up and didn't consult the CAC and as a result he caught collateral because of that. I'd have left too.
@@Mischievous_Moth For sure, all we know is what nothing he's put out about it, and it's his prerogative. Feeling not used by leaving the group is valid. Feeling *used* by becoming the punching bag for a lot of faceless elder judges is... just as valid.
@@katesperinck1401 My playgroup knows what they're getting into when they're playing against it. It's every card on the ban list plus gold border cards as filler to make the entire deck illegal including lands. I also run "One With Death" and if I hit it with Golos, I cast it as my punishment.
@@katesperinck1401 Banned Camp's primary purpose is for when we shuffle a bunch of our favorite wubrg decks together into four communal stacks. We have each top card revealed and can draw from whichever one we want. Various commanders are stacked in a deck separately and we draw a new commander each time it is killed instead of commander tax.
@@nodekapunk If the maximum you can spend is $50, 200 and 4000 might as well be the same. It's not a hard concept to understand that some people are poor.
And the evidence is right there with Nadu. That card should've been banned immediately on set release in every format with a "whoops, sorry, this card is totally borked our bad". Instead they waited over 2 months and a full PT season to ban it, because they wanted those people opening boosters of MH3.
I own two Mana Crypts, the book promo and Double Masters full art. I'm honestly not upset about it being banned. Having played commander since 2013, I've seen how power has been pushed hard and you have to up your deck's power level to even play games now. I got the vibe of slowing that down. WotC has pushed so much to make money it's crazy. I sometimes wish Commander would have stayed a fringe format. At the end of the day, I don't play Magic to make money, I play it to be a part of a community.
These bans are not going to lower power level . 😅 now I'm calling all my decks just commander "what's your power level" it's commander bro & commander is casual 😆
I also wish commander stayed as a fringe format, but because the rise of commander has been the fall of every single other format. I miss when the majority of magic players played standard.
@@DVS57REBELthat's not really the case anymore. People are very competitive in commander now. I wish you were right and that people just played casual stuff but now people have this mindset to get the strongest cards and decks and that results in buying whatever is the most expensive mana rock and turboing out a infinite combo by turn 6-8.
It's very telling that it's easy to find supporters of Crypt, and almost as easy to find Lotus and Dockside supporters. But the only support I've seen for Nadu are "no bans, ever" sort. Ban that Bird!
I truly hope any and every single person who would even think about lashing out at individuals about these or any changes to Magic will quit playing and never return, we don’t need those kind of people in our community.
I cannot imagine harassing someone and threatening them, even to the point of death, because of some cardstock. Surely, your life is more than this game.
@@pistolpete7422 God creates dinosaus, god destroy, dinosaur, god creates the man, man creates commander, wizards try to destroy commander, commander destroy standard...
I am personally conflicted, I enjoy building casual archetypes Big Stompy, Life gain, etc. but optimizing my decks. I am torn by the MC/JL bans because of how well they enabled my strategies but agree they were broken.
@@joelanderson5285they enable everything. Crypt and lotus especially are just generically powerful cards that crowd out more interesting inclusions. Good riddance.
Definitely an interesting perspective, but Sol Ring being more powerful than Mana Crypt seems pretty wild. Even just in a vacuum, being able to save your limited colored mana to use in conjunction with the 2 colorless is a huge benefit early game, and the ~1.5 life per turn is negligible. Like, the difference between paying mana for an effect and NOT paying mana for the same effect is huge. The gulf between Counterspell and Cancel is vast and easily-recognizable, and going from 2 mana to 3 is a much lower cost relative to going from 0 mana to 1.
@@joelanderson5285 I created a borborgymos enraged land throwing commander deck. It has none of the cards banned and it still works. The cards banned are a good thing for people that are casual to play. I literally pack up from games that start with a jeweled lotus followed by sol ring then whatever bullshit.
The only format Jeweled Lotus is really playable in now is Historic Brawl, and no one plays Brawl outside of Arena, where Jeweled Lotus doesn't exist. Irony.
i agree with u prof, in that the way this was announced was not ideal and the ensuing vitriol was and is completely unacceptable. however, as a casual player who only owns one copy of each ( and keeping them), i am on-board with getting them out of the format. too many times rule-0 conversations fail me and people STILL brought excuses as to why they ran them and i’m glad to see them go.
With respect -- if you own a copy of each of those, you're not a casual player. You're just not a hyper-invested, super hardcore player. A casual player probably doesn't even know off the top of their head what all those cards do, and think that owning any card worth more than $20 or something is outrageous.
@@lightworker2956that's not necessarily true. I own a time vault and probably 15 copies of a single reserved list card (veteran bodyguard ftw). It's quite possible to open them in packs.
I mean Koonami did outright ban a card they literally just printed (which never happens) and is on shelves as we speak, so they probably feel a little fired up.
Its because we have had to deal with this before. Konami hits really expensive cards all the time and the fact people are getting this fired up is just... wtf You don't want Magic to be Pay to win. Its not good. Yugioh is like that and its really bad. 😂
yes, because its obviously making the format better while being a bad decision for the company money-wise. yugioh players are used to spending hundreds on new decks which will be almost worthless 6-9 months later because they are getting banned.
Thank you prof for being kind and considerate while not shying away from valid critique. You are a model for how the modern discourse should be. Again, thank you.
As an outsider, I'll confess the backlash seems wild to me. Everyone was crying about how the existing ban list seemed completely insufficient, then some cards got banned that were auto-includes in almost every deck that could afford or proxy them, and now everyone's furious. Isn't that what a ban list is supposed to do? Mind you, this would absolutely apply to Sol Ring as well, and I agree that the explicit exception kind of undermines the committee's argument. As to the financial angle, I do understand that, but... cards are supposed to be game pieces, not financial investments. The game rules need to treat them as such. Prof's uncertainly argument actually makes me think this ban might make the format broadly cheaper and more accessible, as players are less-inclined to spend large amounts of money on staple cards.
This has nothing to do with investments. Cards have value, whether that is $1 or $100, we all pay to play. We have the right to be angry when WotC makes these cards available, and then shortly after unilaterally prevents us from using them. We just want to optimize our decks, and we have the disposable income to do it. The people who say that it's just cardboard would never trade away a serialized card for a regular print.
When you ruin a few million dollars worth of potential profits from LGS's it's a bad decision. Every shop any player makes purchases from is only open because MTG game prices are a financial investment stating that it shoulnt be treated as such is an incorrect perspective since they obviously are and have been a financial investment. The issue now is any card over $15-20 is worthy of proxing hell even cheaper cards because someone wants a special art. There's no insensitive to invest in MTG product other than the ability to play with/ collect said product. Because of that proxies will rise MTG profits will fall and LGS's will buy less boxes and sell less singles.@@DanynFineFutureConsiderations
People are already replacing Mana Crypts with Mana Vaults, the price is going up rapidly. And it won't take long for WotC's next Commander (or Modern) only set to introduce the next thing that is an auto-include based on power level. They need to design cards like this to sell their product. They will decline to reprint other format staples until they are $100 or more to get enough "reprint equity" for any other product they fear might otherwise rot on shelves. They have done so in the past, and they've been successful. No reason for them to change. Magic players are cash cows, and WotC knows it.
In a casual game mode (thats what commander is) its actually pretty nice to have some random factor to keep it a bit more fair. Mostly not all decks are same powerlevel and possibilities to have a great card brings everyone a bit closer. Sol Ring is a card, that stands for commander, everybody has like 20 copies of it and is in every precon deck. This is the one random factor card that everyone has in their decks. Well maybe with arcane signet and command tower. But still. Reducing these cards by reducing the cards that arent part of every deck in casual but every deck in competetive is kind of a healthy move for casual commander. Tbh, if people buy cards for investment, they know its volatile and not save. If they get reprinted they dip, if they get banned they dip. It happens and it always can happen. Only spend money on this that you have and youll be fine. even 20€ for a less than a cent card would be really much imo. why spend 100€?
if people buy them whats the problem? wizards is providing a product that people want to buy? nothing wrong with that. where wizards was being underhanded is in reprinting cards they knew they were going to ban anyway. if they were going to ban a card they just reprinted not too long ago they shouldve given the community at least a 1 year headsup. but make no mistake those cards did need to be banned... eventually.
Won't happen. The collector boosters are a giant cash machine for wizards and they are full of special prints. Set boosters in the past devalued foils. Collector boosters have devalued all special prints.
Making these more affordable speeds up the format even more. That is something the RC wants to avoid as part of their vision. If you just wanted them to make them more affordable/widespread first, and only then ban them, that seems extremely risky to the health of the format for casual players. The average game of edh should not be approaching legacy/vintage speed because that is antithetical to casual play and would drive the bulk of players away. These bans set a firm line for where fast mana stands, and how wotc should approach card design and reprints
Imagine starting to play Commander by seeing it on the internet, buying a precon, upgrading it, going to a LGS and see a Jeweled Lotus + Mana Crypt into 6 drop commander on turn 1. These cards should never have been printed in the first place (and I also hate WoTC making cards specifically for Commander, Nadu was one of them btw). Since they are, they deserve a ban yes. 100% agree with you
I actually think the reprints prompted the ban. More availability -> more people jamming it into their decks -> more poor quality games -> decision to ban.
Agreed. Let's be real. If Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were $1 cards like Sol Ring, they would be auto-includes in every deck. The only reason they weren't in 90%+ of all decks is because of price or self-imposed power level restrictions.
I agree. i take on average 4 turns to get going, but that means I have been getting outpaced for ages. Because I can't afford those fast mana cards. It makes the game incredibly frustrating.
oh man, sad that this is what brings me back to your wonderful channel. i haven't been paying attention to this hobby for quite a while. RIP Sheldon Menery. You never know what you've got until it's gone.
I feel sorry for those who bought the cards to actually play it because they are steep especially Mana Crypt ($300 or something in Aus iirc) and to have the news that its banned come out of the blue must hurt but I don't care and zero sympathy for those hoarding them to make a profit. These cards shouldn't be as costly as they are and should be more accessible so the prices don't reach these heights when they have high functionality and synergy with decks, if they were printed more the hit and pain for those who paid to play them won't be so deep. It's my biggest takeaway from all of this outside of knowing that a portion of the community are rabid and care more about the price of a card and making money, than the game itself.
@@ryanoliveira9783no they understood the risk and you know they bought those for the same price it is right now if not cheaper. They’re not hurting that much and if they took a significant loss from that then their business model is doomed to fail anyways.
@@ryanoliveira9783 Some degree of sympathy, but that sort of speculation failure is part of doing business for an LGS. The higher the price of the product they're speculating on stocking, the higher the chance there is of big gains but also the higher the chance is of big losses. Like, is this really all that different from an LGS stocking too many collector boxes for a certain set, or some other high price point sealed product like a FTV, only to have it end up being a low-demand dud that languishes on the shelf untouched for years? There's plenty of products like that that are only ever going to get sold if the LGS bites the bullet and decides to take a loss on it from the price they paid for it wholesale.
Imagine how I feel now. I got to pull a crypt from a random hunch caverns of Ixalan Best Buy pull before a haircut. I was like a kid on Christmas. Whatever I have one pack of duskmorn here Il open and Il resign. Good luck fellow nerds, hopefully a new card game takes storm.
Yeah, at this point in the life of MTG, everyone should really operate under the assumption that any card not on the RL could tank or skyrocket in value at any moment. So, hold/sell at your own risk. I understand most of the issues people have with the bans (even if I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal), but the ones upset about the financial aspect just don't hold water to me. It's no different than when they reprinted Higure and my Kamigawa foil version of him cratered in value overnight. It's the price I paid for letting it sit in a binder unused for so long. Plus, with commander being a casual-first format, banlists are more of a recommendation most of the time, so if your group/LGS wants to keep using them then go right ahead.
i actually agree with most of your takes. I dont think it needed to get banned, but I do agree its probably better for the format and wotc should be blamed mostly for the anger.
I mean, Wotc wasn’t even that informed on the subject. Rules Comitte had good intentions, but done a horrible and sloppy job with carrying out the bans.
The shock of the bans was wild, and i regret recently purchasing both a JL and MC however this doesn't affect my table top game. I disagree with how it was handled, however I am appalled at the level of hostility in the community. I worry about the future of commander, because trust has been broken in a real way here. I also don't know if i want to be associated with people who would threaten or harass others on this level. IT IS A GAME.
You're right about the trust being broken I have a friend who bought JL and MC 2 months ago He was looking at the watchlist and he's 100% commited to the game he took out Nadu from his deck just because he knew it was coming Didn't spoke to him recently but I'm sure he's pissed right now
There's probably a few dozen of the 'harasser' types who sent/send these silly threats, which they'd never actually carry out. Magic is a big community. Don't sweat it too much.
Taken me years to build my Krrik deck, haven’t even gotten to play but I’ve watched videos and have been waiting to finally join Friday night magic this year. Removing these two cards kills Krrik imo and now I feel like it’s all for nothing.
I made a separate comment about this on the video but I'm glad. Not about the hostility or death threats that's unacceptable. But I would lose no sleep if this ends commander. I think this stupid format is the worst thing to happen to magic in 30 years.
Well seeing who the newer player base is comprised of im not surprised by the threats . Mtg has been leaning a certain way over the years and gain a lot of support from said group of individuals 😂
Bless The Professor. You actually have the most consistent and reasonable arguments and statement out of the entire community and you couldn't have explained this situation any better. Great job. You are vital to this community.
@@TheMArtagnan It's such a dumb conspiracy theory. If it had actually happened, wouldn't the people who got fleeced be shouting about it from the rooftops?
It’s an incredibly bad look for the MTG community. I hadn’t played in ten years and looked up what to bring to a FNM and was shocked that “please take a shower” was a near universal recommendation. So, mean, hateful people with bad hygiene is the feeling of even the MTG community about itself.
I wouldn't say I'm upset, but I am a little sad that the Mana Crypt I opened in the Mystery Box I bought from an LGS during lockdown can't be in my pet deck anymore. Even after the bubble burst, it's still the most expensive card I have ever pulled. I have had no intention on selling it, but it was always fun to flex that I got the chase rare as a karmic reward for supporting my local store during tough times. I even double sleeved the deck a couple months ago because of that one card.
You've got a killer story now though. I think this cemented mana crypt's place on the "iconic mtg cards" list. My dream is collecting the 4 cards that got banned and putting them in a binder page together
My MtG collection consists entirely of a handful of precons. I was never going to afford or spend the money on a Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt, which means I was always going to be at a disadvantage at any table runnning them. IMO, the bans were a positive step for a format which is meant to draw in casual players more than any other.
I do wonder were the bans so sweeping and unprecedented? Or was it more so that with the Magic Hyighlander format becoming so much bigger in the last 10 years that people weren't properly used to big bannings? Since I would have assumed that the power 9 being banned back in the day even though it was more of a ban for making the format not crazy expensive was a more sweeping change. It's just a change from much longer ago.
I suppose you could argue that banning the power 9 was a "bigger" change, but that change happened in June 2005, which would have been in the middle of the Kamigawa block. I played regularly back then, and I only ever heard one person even mention EDH and no one at my LGS played it. This was so early, that they had only recently allowed you to play more than one copy of a basic land.
I've been playing the format for 12 years now. this is by far the biggest and most sweeping ban they've done since I started. The closest thing I can remember it being impacting to this was when they banned Prophet of Kruphix, and that's not even close to this.
The biggest problem with this banlist was that it didn't happen many years ago, both dockside and jeweled lotus have been problem cards since day 1 of being printed and they should have been banned longed before they reached the price they did
I really appreciate you taking a serious tone to the beginning of this video. It's vile how some people are responding and needs to be addressed LOUDLY.
i mostly blame wotc for being a piece of shit when it comes to pushing expensive chase cards of shit that shouldn't have existed in the first place and being allergic to reprints if these were 10-20 dollar cards nobody would care
100% its the reason Sol Ring is still around (despite it being equal or stronger then Mana Crypt) is because its a card everyone has easy access too (being that its printed in every precon) so no one (should) complains about Sol Ring because its a card everyone has access too. If these 3 cards were affordable & not keep aside for WOTC to keep as chase cards then they'd be no need for a ban.
I would care, I play cEDH and a lot of what the format did kinda balanced through these cards on how they played. As a casual player, I’m ambivalent because I haven’t had any of the games I’ve played in the past 6 months get shaken up because I just don’t see crypt or dockside of jeweled lotus in my casual games in a format that is disruptive. If I had it in my decks the next best option for my deck wouldn’t have weakened the deck substantially, but as a cEDH player it defo shrinks a lot of the variance that was spread across that meta in a disappointing way. Not happy with the bans purely as a player.
Completely missed the community response to this. Glad I'm not on Twitter or Reddit. Also, I'm very hopeful for the Silver Border movement I saw tacked on to the ban announcement. I love Silver Border/Acorn cards, but the rule 0 conversation every single time I want to play turns me off from playing those decks
Check the official Commander site for the write up Jim did on that, if you haven't read it already. Titled 'The Silver-Bordered Project' We should be getting an update on soon.
It was actually kinda funny though if you aren't a Member of the "Rule Board". Most people neiter play in Tournaments nor do they care about the fact that those cards will rise in value again anyway; it's literally just the fact that you take away an advantage they had against randoms. Or that they literally viewed paper cards as real investments in their financial security. Which is ild on its own.
The tiers in the Silver Border project make a lot of sense for ordinary black-border too. Standard commander; probably OK but you ought to check first; have a detailed discussion because it does seriously stretch the boundaries; not under any circumstances. I could see a situation where the entire ban list works like that. There are a lot of cards, like Jeweled Lotus for example, which probably belong in a check-first category. Having two tiers of semi-banned cards makes it a lot easier to get folks on the same page. While established pods might have an easy time getting everyone to the same frame of reference, pickup groups don’t. If someone shows up with a “probably OK” deck, it’s a lot easier for someone to say “let’s just play standard.”
I remember chatting about MTG with a friend's friend about the Warhammer set, and I could never connect to him because all he cared was the prices of the cards, and how he is losing money, when I just wanted someone to chat about builds.
Yes, it shouldnt be the primary purpose, but it existiting in that way keeps the game alive. Even for casuals who buy product, the idea that someday you'll be able to/even have the option to trade some cards is a huge factor in buying any sort of sealed boxes or packs. All TCG's need some sense of value. Its a requirement. That's how they survive and exist.
@@verzun8470 The dollar value has nothing to do with your ability to collect or trade cards. We did it before they ever put prices on them. The monetary value brings more people into the scene, but it's debatable whether that is actually healthy for the game. I personally think the people who are Magic because of the money are both bad for the game, and stupid. If the game ever dies entirely, the cards will be worthless in fairly short order.
The only reason why this is an issue at all is because of resale value of cards. It isn't a problem that a card has been banned and players need to replace it, it is that a card they had spent money on, that they expected to be able to potentially resell in the future has had its value erased. As such people are reacting as if the rules change reached into their wallets and robbed them.
Ban outrage boils down to the thing we've known forever: Commander players hate when you touch their cards lol. From creature theft, to wheeling, now to bans...don't touch the cards lol.
Meanwhile, here I am stealing Aragorn's sword and swapping it with a rinky dinky clue token right after that player just called the card one of the best in their deck.
its not commander players its speculative investors and cEDH sweats who also play other competitive formats. for every 1 person whinging about this there are 1000 casual players who either like it or don't care, stop being vitriolic for no reason. i hear more about commander players from basically everyone who isn't one than commander players themselves.
wotc has an incentive to make their cardboard valuable. the commander council has a duty to make the format healthy and fun. I think the idea that commander can be an 'anything goes infinite power level infinite expensive cards' is silly, especially when its one of the most popular formats. Mana crypt being a staple in the most popular format is bad.
I have a question for MTG peeps cuz I'm new Everyone keeps going "they should have told us ahead of time they were gonna hit Mana Crypt and Jewelled Lotus" But like Functionally what difference is there from doing that and releasing the list right Like if the argument is that just dropping the list made it impossible to sell the copies If like a month ago the committee had said "oh next month we're banning crypt lmao" the exact same thing would have happened a month ago, no? Everyone who had a copy would try to instantly dump it, and nobody would buy it cuz it would be dead in a month And if community outrage would have caused them to change their mind then your rules committee has allowed itself to be bullied for the sake of financial gain on the playerbase and it will happen again every time an expensive card is too meta Then you have Yu-Gi-Oh situation where the shiny cards dodge lists for as long as Komoney is seeing profit, and then banned when everyone has one lol I also don't really like the watchlist as a concept but I gather that players do so I'll understand that it's my lack of experience there
I also do not think they should consider the financial aspect at all Unless it's a situation where there are two cards that jointly cause damage to a format, and hitting either one can feasibly solve this problem without creating any new ones So essentially the last tiebreaker
I think you misunderstood sonething. If the RC just tells people the card is gonna be banned in a month it will ofc not change anything. People want the RC to announce the cards they are considering to ban - create a watchlist. The RC has not banned anything since forever, then they tell us that a certain (reasonable) card is being considered for banning (so everyone thinks cards go on a watchlist before being banned). No one was surprised by the Nadu ban and everyone understood it. They could have just banned Nadu (and maybe Dockside), thus signaling that they will take a more active approach in the future, then announce that they are considering other cards to be banned. This 1: would not leave everyone completely taken aback by the bans. 2: would leave room for discussions in the community (which the RC could hear out) 3: would not give any reason for the backlash this decision got. You can see in other formats that this approach is working (like with the One Ring mentioned in the video). Everyone knows this card could be banned. People still buy it. But if it gets banned, they have no justification to blame the RC for their loss of money.
it's about how quickly the prices drop. saying that you're going to ban the cards in a month means that the crash is going to happen over the course of the month instead of overnight. people holding the bag have a chance to sell it and still get something back, and people that never got to use these cards get a chance to buy and play with them at a discount for a short amount of time.
This a complex issue: - The Inflation of the cost of living and the High cost of Cardboard Luxury Rectangles probably resulting in a a number of players walking the proverbial plank of financial distress, to have WOTC prop up these cards as the ''chase cards in a set, only to have the cards banned. Don't be a victim of FOMO. - The Ruling Committee not consulting CAG due to trust issues attempting to ensure that there is no inside trading like the Painter's servant from the last bannings years ago. We Remember, y'all have had years to fix this problem. - The RC need to recognize how big CEDH is now and perhaps make a Competitive RC with it's own ban list which would be far less than the current casual EDH ban list. - Remember the rule #0 and that the RC Banlist is not the Sanctum Sanctorum it is a suggested ban list, EDH is casual. CEDH is not ''as'' casual. - Nadu was a mistake. Jeweled Lotus is a mistake, Gavin even admitted it. Jeweled Lotus should never have been printed or be printed in every commander precon till it is pennies! Dockside should have actually read '' When Dockside ETB's create X treasures, where X is the number of artifacts and enchantments TARGET opponent controls'' Dockside affecting all opponents was the real problem, a design problem. - Richard Garfield: “My intuition is that having a $20 card is about right. If these $50 cards are being driven by non-play elements, like a foil, that's one thing. I don't really care about that.'' Cardboard should never be worth that much :P
I agree with you. In my mind the biggest issue (outside or harrassment and death threats obviously) is not talking to the CAG. The fact that Insider Trading has even been an issue for a childrens card game is entirely on Hasbro/WotC.
cEDH would die if it didn't share the same banlist as casual edh Outside of entire regions creating their own banlists (china) cEDH can only live by being the highest you can push edh within the bounds of the banlist that exists
The "financially distressed people willing to spend 100s of $ on a card" argument should need its own video. I never met such a person, but I know they exist, and they need help (financial, but also psychological, imho).
@@V2ULTRAKill Italy has a separate banlist for compettive duel commander. Guess what? Lotus, Dockside and Crypt are already banned (alongsode other 0-1cmc ramp and 1cmc tutors)
But what about the insider trading done by the RC? I don't see a world where they wouldn't have off loaded their Crypts/Lotus's/Docside's before the announcement.
Thank you professor, except for Nadu I don't believe the other three cards needed to be banned. At least in my experience rule Zero would have keep it in check.
It's kind of like the argument in pauper with artifact lands. So many people want them gone, but at the same time believe it is a staple definition of the format since it's one of the only places you can actually use them.
@@simonteesdale9752 sol ring is +1 the turn it hits and +2 each after that. Lotus is +3 with restriction. If every sol ring was replaced with Lotus the game would slow down.
@TrixyTrixter I mean, I'd love to see Sol Ring banned too... However, the comment I replied to wasn't talking about making a swap, but instead just printing Lotus at the same rate Sol Ring is.
@@CaitofFate Proxy means to not buy the real cards but instead use something as a standin for that card. Normaly proxies are random bull cards in a sleve with a paper saying what the real card it represents is.
The thing is commander is a community format. For us at the kitchentable nothing changed, we are a playgroup of 8 People and have our own banlist becouse we have our own vision how games should be run. If people are so upset that their cards got banned, talk to your playgroups you can still rule 0 those cards. We are people and we can communicate how we want to run our games. For all those who frequently visit official events i feel a little sad (only becouse these cards are expensive and for all people who bought them recently it must be frustrating) Take care guys, vent your frustration in moderation and have a nice weekend.
You can play however you want on your own table, at your house or a friend's, but if you're playing in a public place or in an official tournament or where there could be beginners then these bans make total sense. The game is already expensive enough as it is and daunting when you first get into it.
It was fun to see all the content of mtg creators - videos, blogs, etc. - saying, that they "definitely, really, di not know anything whatsoever about the cards getting banned." I think the bans are good for the most part, and you can still ask your table or your friends if it's an issue to use one or all of them.
@14:40 I think it's disingenuous to loop 1 and 2 mana, not net positive ramp (Talismans, mana dorks, signets, arcane signet) in with 0 mana ramp, especially when mana dorks need external haste/a pass around the table and must survive, to Crypt and Lotus. Sol ring is of course, comparable, as is Grim. Lotus is one use and done, making the idea of interacting with it laughable. It doesn't touch the table unless its proceeding to the yard with you 3 mana richer. Signaling players to "part ways" with their high value cards before a ban is just passing the buck: Someone is going to be financially impacted by these bans: the Stores that buy them or Other player that may, or may not, know the risk, as not every player keeps up with the more nuanced posts of online forums. 17:50 Dockside has been mentioned multiple times in previous banlist updates I feel like you need to explain why 1 mana -> tap for 2 is a stronger card than 0 mana tap for 2. Honestly, while i have historically valued your opinion and generally come to you for honest, nuanced discussion of these topics. I got out at 18:15, after the above statement. This video smacks of establishment griping, and I feel you are leveraging your celebrity to gripe. I will say, on a positive note, your summary of the situation with community reaction, harassment, threats, and disdain was on point, and refreshing. Most other creators i follow have been apologizing to people that lost value and not willing to touch these very important, community critical points. In what way are we a community if we treat the thought leaders this way when something we don't like happens? I look forward to your next video Prof, but I think you need to take another look at your views on ramp and interaction before defending this one.
I think WOTC should stay away from Commander other than precons. Don't make cards for Commander. It seems like the biggest issue is the value of these cards. I have only ever played against a Mana Crypt and I just knew I was playing a much weaker deck than that person. I do feel for the cedh community and believe there needs to be something in place to let them play the power cards they want to play. With that being said, I still feel like a ton of pods will rule 0 these cards in, and from reading some comments, people are going to keep running these cards. These bans don't change any of my decks cause I try to play level 5 or 6 decks cause I find Commander to be best when it is janky and silly decks. I always found super optimized decks weird in a casual format, but casual seems to mean different things for different folks. Overall, the face that the community has shown these last couple days has put a huge sour taste in the mouth.
from a cEDH perspective, I'm glad that they didn't just ban Dockside and Nadu only. Because Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus while rewarding the players in the first / second seats, Dockside punishes too much early mana acceleration. So, I think it's balanced in some way. Although I think a card like Dockside should have never been printed, the reason to play red is kind of dead.
I gotta agree with the comments here. More reprints would literally just speed the game up. Their inqccessability is literally the only reason people dont just put one in every deck - cause NOT every player has the mental ability to stick to a lower powerlevel when they see a chance to upgrade and pretending it is is just ignoring the biggest problem.
As always, TCC and The professor are the voice of reason in a sea of craziness. It's NEVER acceptable to harass or threaten individuals over a card game.
2:28 Well said, we're all mad however there will always be a correct way and an incorrect way to respond to such news and acting like a mindless lunatic or a zoo baboon is absolutely uncalled for
Yea sure but what does telling all the normal people who don’t do that actually do? The crazy person willing to take it that far isn’t going to listen. It’s just virtue signaling. Besides being threatened on twitter is hardly a real credible threat.
The real problem is that there is no actual productive way for people to voice these complaints to the RC and no way for members of the RC to be removed. Currently the RC is acting like they are just as untouchable as Sol Ring. While people are definitely going too far it's really just a symptom of how poorly managed the RC is.
@gVidsIsGone absolutely, poor management all around for the last few years now, it seems for not just the RC but the company as a whole. I feel like they act as if they are "untouchable" or "head strong" because we as a player and fan base enable it. Not slowing down for nothing buying products even through they keep shitting on us and pushing us to see exactly what they can get away with doing. Most of what they do these days is met with criticism with no long-term repercussions.
@@leosc24 at least for WOTC we can be heard by not buying sealed product. For the RC they are a position that really should be an elected position since there really is no way to hold them accountable for mistakes. The price of individusl chase cards is more self inflicted than anything else. At the end of the day this is a casual format and we really don't need the best cards possible in decks for them to make the game fun. There was a command zone podcast a while ago where they talked about how when they sit down at a table their goal is for everyone to have a fun game instead of themselves winning all the time. If everyone played casual games with this idea then we wouldn't have crazy chase cards and WOTC wouldn't be pushing power creep this much and instead push cards that have interesting mechanics (which honestly might cause more nadu issues) or likely more rare art/serialized/limited edition printings. If players are sitting down at tables where their main goal is winning then they need to be playing in a competitive format like cedh and not regular commander.
5:20 f-yes, Prof. The immaturity and petulant foot-stomping is disgusting. I really do feel for people that lost a bunch of money. I feel for people who have to make changes to their decks. I fit in both of those groups. That said, I can both disagree AND understand the reasoning behind the bans. I can object to how the bans were implemented AND accept that this is something that happens in games. I got my cards knowing that bans and reprints are part of the game, and I’m willing to accept that as par for the course. I do also get that a store can’t have that same cavalier attitude, as they are on often slim margins and need every bit of help they can get.
I'll start by saying I don't often agree with some of the takes here, but I was very pleasantly surprised by this video. I don't think anyone, even Nadu players, care that Nadu was banned. Dockside unfortunately was abused and therefore I understand it's banning, however with the way it scaled with table power it was a good tool, I.E. if I bring a cEDH deck to mubstomp my casual LGS, Dockside is typically one of the worse early rituals in my deck, however if I drop a handful of fast mana and an opponent plays a Dockside, it doesn't make us even but it gave them some kind of chance, these are of course extremes, but effectively it had the ability to close a gap in power imbalance. Lots and Crypt... everyone says the game is too fast, you're all correct, in the past 10 years EDH power creep has happened substantially, and the fast decks are consistently and reliably fast, so consistent and reliable in fact, that banning 2 mana rocks won't slow them down, think if a deck intends to win by turn 2 then any mana source can be a Ritual, a deck that wants to win turn 5 needs some permenant mana sources, and a deck that wins by turn 10 can't rely on rituals to cast their more expensive spells each turn. On that basis, the fast decks have more opportunity to replace these cards, while the decks that struggle to keep up need these cards to contend, this theory applies in both casual and competitive. EDH at its core is about playing your janky ideas, creative freedom, but like it or not the format is faster with or without these cards, and banning them has only removed some tools for the slower decks to keep up with these changes and taken aways some of that creative freedom, making some decks less viable as a direct result and forcing people away from timmy cards and toward a more consistent and overall higher tier out of necessity. Last note because my thoughts on the bans suggest those building slower decks have access to these cards, I'm aware that not everyone does, and that's down to limited printing and inflated cost, but by banning them, affordable or not, the potential to use them is gone
I just got into this game and wow, magic is kinda deep lol. Seriously though, if you threaten someone over a card game you really need some professional help.
Maybe RC needs professional help instead. Its really childish not to expect serious retaliation after you derail one of the most succesfull products with that kind of arguments. Maybe they use their brains next time over some “we want a slower format so we think you want that either” type of answer. I really hope that RC takes more hits before Wizards wrecks them all. Cheers.
Defending people that make death threats, and victim blaming people that are just trying to make that card game better, is again a sign that someone needs professional help.
I call for lower prices if no cards are safe moving forward. I've already had about 11 peoples come to the local store last night to sell their collections...trust as you say has been shattered.
@tolariancommunitycollege Thank you Prof for so directly addressing the insane level of immaturity and harassment that is occuring. There is no universe where it's acceptable to threaten someone's safety over a card game, and the people who are acting that way or speaking with such careless hyperbole as to encourage it should be worse than ashamed of themselves. So thank you again for your carefully chosen words and deep compassion. I hope community sees your example and chooses to be better.
We haven't used the casual ban list in 4 years, the copious amounts of play groups that actually don't use that list....is a very high percentage, play what your group wants and allows.
Make every card in basic rarity and alt arts for rarity. Players are happy and collectors have something too. Put two holos in each pack and some have a chance to be a special treatment or full art or something. Control the supply of cool looking cards but not power. I think that’s a fair compromise
To be honest, I don't understand the blow up here. An arbitrary group for a community format bans a card; ok, my friends and I can still play it if we want. No one is forcing me to give up the cards and I'm sure with such backlash that there are plenty of people still willing to allow it to be seen in play. I suppose if you're playing cEDH and Wizards is sanctioning it...perhaps Wizards should be in control of these bans anyway and it will either stay banned for a good reason or be reversed. Lots of anger for something that doesn't warrant what's taking place. I also don't own these cards, but I would still consider buying them for the sake of collecting, even with them banned.
I feel the discussion on watchlists, and your example about The One Ring in Modern, fails to recognize that TOR would retain likely 80% of its value because of Commander. And the potential loss is offset because of the potential value having them in Modern carries. If you win $100 in modern tournaments before you sell to commander players, they are up on money and took very little risk. It only takes a few collectors moving 10-15 of these cards to trigger a rush to sell. Watchlists would trigger sell offs because of the prominence of proxies in casual commander. Why hold onto an asset that you assume will tank when you can make a fake one and get the enjoyment out of it?
This is probably not true. TOR might not drop under 10 after a modern ban, but seeing that its not as prevalent in legacy as it is in modern, and a lot of its current value is due to the amount of decks its in in modern driving the demand through the roof, I would wager it takes at least a 50% hit. TOR is special because unlike card like nadu or hogaak, TOR is present in over half the format and can easily fit in every deck. So even though Nadu decks had a crazy 20% of the showing, TOR was in 50% of the decks, while Nadu was only in the 20% mentioned earlier. I would easily wager that over 80%, probably 90% of the decks that currently have a TOR in it are modern decks.
@@th3summoner I’m doubtful because I seriously can’t imagine a commander deck where TOR wouldn’t fit. It will also maintain value because of a seemingly inability to reprint it and its ties to LOTR. It will go down. I’d be shocked if it dropped below $65. It’s just that good of a card and they probably can’t reprint it.
As much as I agree that this decision was made very callously by the committee, fact of the matter is Mana crypt should have NEVER been reprinted and jeweled lotus was the most aggressive, egregious printing in years, maybe the last decade. That thing was cancer from the beginning. It’s not the rules committee’s job to maintain the games secondary market economy. It’s their job to maintain the health of the format as best they can. If these people are that angry it should be directed at Wizards and more specifically Hasbro. This is about profit. Those cards were printed to make money for the company. All these collectors and “stores” should know the risks involved when you base your entire business strategy off a trading card game secondary market. This is coming from someone who at one point had close to a six figure collection.
If you bought any of these cards to play in commander you PROBABLY play cedh level decks (weirdly besides dockside just cuz its good and fun for red decks and can be kinda fair). If youre upset as a cedh player I feel you, but this is why cedh and regular commander should be SEPARATE FORMATS. Cards should be banned in casual commander if they often accidentally or essentially always intentionally do something egregiously BS. Jeweled lotus and mana crypt (and sol ring) absolutely are part of this category... but these cards as part of cedh are fine. Honestly the RC are just bad at their job. Theyre poor communicators who for the longest time made almost no decisions which wasnt good and then made a ton at once which wasnt good. We didnt even get unbans with this announcement when we have cards that arent even remotely banworthy on the list lol Commander advisory group feels like a meme and the RC feels like just an offshoot puppet branch of WotC with kind of behavior. Tbh the RC and ban list should be abolished and people should just be more socially diligent about the kind of cards they do and dont wanna play with. People should run sideboards that help augment the power of their decks for super salty or powerful cards anyway.
I'm hoping it reaches a level I'm comfortable with, of course I want the original version and that may drop as much. p.s. If cedh actually splits off and makes its own banlist, these cards could recover a fair bit.
As someone who has been slowly building up an edh deck for years due to price watching tons of edh on TH-cam, this is huge so many decks run on these cards. They are pricey and sought after, so if you invest or get lucky enough to pull one, people feel robbed. So financially it’s bad and it ruins peoples decks that they have been trying to accumulate for years.
Watch Wubby Lose $10,000 On Turn 0! Commander vs Baddie and Lua! | Shuffle Up & Play 59: th-cam.com/video/JYOCZ0X0YNI/w-d-xo.html
Let’s Play Commander With TheOdd1sOut, Arin Hanson, and Amy: th-cam.com/video/odmBYZFgCJ8/w-d-xo.html
Magic The Gambling with Rhystic Studies, Spencer, and Voxy | Shuffle Up & Play 58: th-cam.com/video/Sgr4tpv1yOU/w-d-xo.html
They should have done the following.
1. Split CEDH and EDH format into two categories.
2. Do the bannings to the EDH side leaving Competitive EDH to still use the cards.
3. Defend against the flack.... BUT... In this case the cards still have somewhere to be played.
CEDH using the same ban list as EDH is ridiculous.
what about the possible insider trading?
wait, theres a commander banlist? 😂
Magic the gathering players receive a contraversial ban list: OMG, THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!!!
Yugioh players: First time, huh?
wubby7
The bans doesn't affect me cause I'm too dam poor to have these cards
they will affect you! now you will probably have more fun :>
It's hard to get upset by the banning of cards I've been priced out of ever owning.
It does affect players like us because we wont be stomped by them no longer :D
Remember this does affect the whole community. This is a massive financial hit for LHSs', which may affect your area. It does make edh a better format though.
I only have 2 of the 4 banned, only dockside is in a deck, and it wasn't even particularly important to it and can easily be replaced. The butthurt is REAL
Sending death threats over a fucking card game is total insanity
Some people are looking for an excuse. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else.
For some people is not only a card game. Think an small store, which could have thousands of dollars in value lost in a single day
People send death threats to people for a lot less supporting XYZ political stand point, liking an artist, and such hell I liked jk rawlings book and got a death threat on Facebook. People on the internet don't have to be worried about being punched in the face.
At this point, without death threats it's not even a controversy
First to say this, but this is 100% in character for Mana Crypt/Jeweled Lotus/Dockside Players 👏
Aw, shucks. Now I have to swap my proxy of Dockside Extortionist out for a proxy of Jeska's Will.
On the bright side, your proxy of Dockside can now be neat confetti!
Or a coaster!
Part of an amalgam of other cards that you hard-cast into a custom game table with resin!
Return it to the dock from whence it came.
Why not just keep the proxy Dockside in?
@@LordJaroh Ikr? Poor monke
Patcha pfp being channeled with this energy. I love it
Sad to see there even is a need for a "harassment is bad" speech..
Yeah it's a real shame, but in reality it's only probably a very tiny handful of people who do those things, my first guess is it would be people who collect magic cards more for monetary value than for play, I could be wrong I haven't even been playing a year yet.
There's a large part of society that thinks hearing 'no' is a form of oppression and condone any level of violence to combat oppression...
Watch WotC print "Cooled Lotus", "Mana Tomb" and "Portside Extortionist" in Modern Horizons 4
Also Danu, the Better Balanced Brother of Nadu.
You joke, but I've heard the conspiracies from the finance bros that this exact thing IS going to happen (bringing the "forced rotation" of Modern to Commander).
And "Jeweled Locus", "Mana Rift", "Dockside Contortionist" and "Nabu, Cousin of Nadu" in Commander Masters 2.
Yup that would be what will happen.
Turn jeweled lotus into a locus creature (that costs one or two mana) that has to tap and sacrifice to get the three mana for the commander
Make mana tomb the land tomb that costs one or two mana but every time you activate it for its two mana you lose two life
And then for the dockside replacement you get a kobold that when at the beginning of your upkeep you get X treasures *tapped* equal to the amount of artifacts your opponents control. Might as well not include the enchantment clause.
'illusory lotus' (an enchantment, rather than artifact)
Prof continues to be the most measured and reasonable person in Magic.
You can count on the Prof to be the calm one in the room.
This is because you dont see him piloting his merlfolks and starting to lose
Yeah, though for once I disagree with him here.
1M subs for a reason
@Highstar7331 what do you disagree with exactly?
said it before and will say it again
Nadu, Jeweled Lotus, and Dockside Extortionist are the reason why WOTC should stop desigining specifically for commander. People will find broken stuff to do with 1v1 cards like they have pre-Throne of Eldraine era, so there's no need for spoon-feeding us with unnecessary powercreep.
Commander was doomed from the start once they started printing commander-specific cards.
@@vividwavers I continue to believe the CRC should have banned Jeweled Lotus on release. Send a message to Wizards that printing cards that hurt the format is unacceptable.
@@wavesofbabies the thing is that Jeweled Lotus, while objectively quite incredibly powerful on release, wasn't *truly* over the line right away- rather, it was a card that continued to get more powerful as time passed
I believe Eminence is much more destructive to Commander than Jeweled Lotus, Nadu or Dockside were. And they learned that right off the bat.
@wavesofbabies
CAG member Benjamin Wheeler has said that Jeweled Lotus was already seen by the RC when it was still in development and the RC said "no, don't do that" was ignored.
It's fundamentally a telling off of WotC.
As of today the RC has stepped down and handed it over to Wizards. What a week for commander.
to be fair, with that much death threats, it was coming
Really bad week for commander
@@TheInverseable Yes. Nobody wants death threats, much less for a volunteer job. Also I am sure the members of the RC joined because they wanted to contribute to the joy commander gave people. Now imagine those people that you wanted to give joy to...start to threaten your life. At that point the reason for your joining has been removed in addition to your safety being threatened.
I just picked up my first commander deck a few days ago 😂
@@RogueAlchemist I wasn't being mean or sarcastic
Its partially on WOTC for never reprinting these cards in a meaningful way. Such as in new precons
More than partially. I put a lot of the blame on them.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege yeah, especially after the reprints that they did end up doing only made the cards prices go up for some reason.
Honestly put the lotus in every precon and take out sol ring.
@WaallyOne Yeah that would've been the move honestly.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege Would the outrage be lessened if they reprinted Crypt and Lotus en masse?
The result on the card price would be similar, I imagine, but it would make the cards more ubiquitous.
However, like you mentioned at the start: This ban DOES make the format more healthy, so if the choice inevitably results in upsetting people, then the choice that makes the format healthier is likely the better choice, though I agree they should have done more due diligence before banning it.
My two cents. Anybody who can be tied to the accounts making threats of violence should be permabanned from public MTG events.
Moreover, anyone making threats of violence should be held criminally accountable.
@@SammyBear this
Seriously, people like that are weak-minded and overly-sensitive if they really resort to death threats because some pieces of cardboard got banned from official games. It's honestly pathetic.
They need to be tracked down by the police and put in prison. No excuse for this behavior.
@@Scattman101it's because they lost money, which is still a terrible reason. They created a market around the rules of the game where the rules are subject to change. This shit happens in the stock market daily.
I’ve always had a rule that if I open a card worth over $100, I’ll sell it immediately bc I need the money more than a fully-optimized deck.
Edit: In case you didn’t know there’s this cool thing called limited, and that’s where I open 99.99% of my packs. I’m not gambling on these things, y’all.
I did that with lily vail in innastrad when she was 25. Two weeks later, 100 bucks and never came down lol
I’ve always been happy about these kinds of bans, because I would never play cards I knew were worth too much money, and knew the cards were too strong for the format.
yeah this whole situation feels pretty insane as someone who cannot even afford healthcare. 🥴
@@stefanlowe9067 took a while, but it is down to sub $20 now.
Yeah...if the card is that much and not a numbered collectors item or something, there's a supply issue that hopefully will be addressed before long. In a standard set, the best cards should go for around $25-30 while in print. In a premium set, maybe they go up to $50, but any time the demand ends up being too high, WoTC should be increasing supply bc they are selling points and it will bring their value on the secondary market down.
The hardest truth of all: Magic cards are bits of cardboard with rules text on them and you get exactly the same experience with proxies.
I disagree with "exactly". I think "largely" fits quite nicely though.
@DanielSuttle In terms of gameplay it's exactly the same. The only difference is the visual appeal
I'm looking to get into paper commander. In your experience, are proxies generally accepted? Any unwritten rules about proxies? I'm looking to beef up some precons to make them function more harmoniously rather than stomp.
@@Diomedan12432in official Tournaments proxies are banned and as i heard some LGS are also Not allowing proxies. I Play proxies for almost 5 years know and for me personally it makes playing Commander so much more fun. The reason is mainly i can sit down, build a Deck, Print Out the cards and If I don't Like the Deck, i have spent 10 bucks and Not 250.
I also never Had an issue before that people didnt want to Play with me because of the proxies. If i sit down with some i havent played with before, i disclose that i use proxies and ask If theyre okay with it. So far i havent Made the experience that someone Had an issue with that.
I think IT also depends in what you're proxing for some people. If you Just have all available Staples in your Deck I can understand why people could be upset. If you built a Deck that hast synergies and have an ocassional Proxy in there, i think you will be fine.
I think the best advice is, try it Out , be honest with the people you're playing with and try to Match the Power Level of your Play group. :)
@@Diomedan12432 If you set down with me I don't care what you've got as long as we agree to it ahead of time. Once had two kids sit down with notebook paper written with card names on it. Of course that time It was very hard to tell board states lol.
To be fair, dockside was also a long time on the watchlist
Yeah, but again people mainly aren't mad about Dockside
I'd give up dockside 100 times if it meant to have jlo or mana crypt back
@@AFailedTuringTestpeople are mad about any and all of them, just to varying degrees.
But was this an official watchlist, or your version of a watchlist? Pretty sure they (RC) clarified that there is no watchlist and there will be no watchlist. Talked about, yes; watchlisted, no.
@@SirSmudgeProductions But the reality is that the RC stated that Dockside had been in discussions for some time over whether or not banning Dockside was a good move. The fact that it had to sit on the fence is statement enough.
Reprint everything till no card is worth more than $20.
Edit: I should clarify, I am just referring to the cheapest version of any card. You can spend as much as you want on vintage/premium cards.
I've been saying the same thing for years. It's a TRADING Card Game. Collecting is a part of the game, but not the sole objective. The cards are meant to be played, which would depreciate their value by actually being played.
Oh the days of playing at the lunch table with no sleeves, no playmat, and storing the cards in zip-lock bags
This is the way 🍷
@@Keck282I had a cardboard deck box not a ziplock! … to store the cards that regularly just scraped against the pavement when I moved them around or tapped them playing on the asphalt at lunch 😂
Why not just tell your friends or have commander decks with the rule of every card has to be under 20$? No one will open boxes of MTG if booster boxes value are 1/4th the price of the cost.
not single card should be morr than 10$ . maybe specal case or smth like that but that would br all
Does anyone else ever look at themselves and their friends and see kind, cool players and then ask, "Who is sending these harassing messages?". Every time I see these reactions, I wonder who in their right mind would react this way?
People in pain will do and say a lot of things they wouldn’t do normally.
Some are attached to our luxury cardboard and don’t/won’t/can’t regulate their reaction.
Happens a lot in fandoms I've noticed. The loudest and foulest will always be the easiest to spot, and most memorable to those looking in.
I have a strong feeling most of the harshest messages are from people buying to sell rather than play but can for sure see some players going too far sadly, we all know that one guy we played with at one point who had their op combo stopped and just scooped and rage leaves its that type who do these things.
Me for sure.
I can think of 1 guy in particular over on Reddit. He was having a full on tantrum over these bans
At the end of the day, if you want to play the cards at your home table, just have a rule 0 conversation with your table as to whether or not you guys want to play those cards and have something ready to swap out if the answer is no, and be on with it. Awesome perspective Prof, thank you for your level-headedness in such a wild time.
Between this and value manipulation (refusing to reprint), they can't be surprised when players proxy cards.
The amount of people jumping on the proxy train is staggering
It's cardboard, it's not supposed to cost that much
@AlleonoriCat it's collectible, doesn't matter what it's made of. This is like saying "tiffany? It's just glass" or "muscle cars? Just metal"
@@arthurpotter9092 so collect it, what do I care? Why then prices change depending on bans? I don't see muscle cars losing 80% of their value if there's a new regulation or road rule? So with magic cards it sounds more like speculation to me
@@AlleonoriCat its not speculation. In order to get cards, you either gamble/ buy packs or you buy singles. Singles will have a price based on how many of them are available and how many people want them. IE, its an economy, where supply and demand dictate a cards price.
No matter how you look at it. You can think its dumb. You can belittle it. But at the end of the day, if someone wants a card to use/ collect. they have to spend money.
I blame WoTC exclusively. They continue to make uber powerful staples for commander then wildly short printing them. They’ve also heavily incentivized many people to start treating this game as a financial investment with the serialized, variations, secret lairs etc they continue to churn out that fetch high prices until their usefulness diminishes. I hate the fact cardboard costs more than my college tuition. I literally have to choose whether to keep up with a card game OR continue to pay for my education when, 10 years ago, that wouldn’t even be close to an issue. They’re building a game for the 1% and until we see it and stop supporting it things will only get worse. The disgusting responses to these bannings have completely soured my view of the community as a whole and now they’re no better than LoL players. Change is desperately needed and it needs to come asap.
Proxy. It's just commander, not the pro tour. If your group doesn't allow proxies, find a better group to play with.
Fruit Monsters TCG is more affordable..
You do know that the second most powerful mana rock after the Crypt and the Lotus is under 2$ and is printed in every single Precon right? And it's about as prone to cause explosive turn 1 and snowballing into the win? Price of the card and its supply should never be a reason behind whether we ban the card or not
@@zlink88 And if there are no other play groups for people to go to? Those people should just go fuck themselves then?
I already checked out of paper magic years ago because of this sort of thing. I exclusively play with friends over virtual tabletop, and rarely will break out my existing paper decks.
I can understand how Mana Crypt came into being, but the other three should've never seen the light of day. Crypt was printed in the early days of the game, when they hadn't quite figured things out, plus routinely taking a bolt to the face was far more dangerous back then, since every format had a starting total of 20 life.
-You mean to tell me no one at WoTC looked at Nadu and said "That guy goes infinite?"
-Dockside Extortionist. A card that instantly pays for itself, providing ramp and a creature, effectively for free.
-A zero-cost artifact called __________ Lotus. I don't even need to look at the card to know it's trouble, but do they really think that restricting it to only casting THE CARD YOU BUILT YOUR DECK AROUND was that difficult a restriction?
These are not mistakes. This is Wizards/Hasbro, deliberately lobbing grenades without regard to collateral damage to the game.
Dont think WotC quite anticipated dockside was. Came in a random precon. Once they realised what it was though, they treated like the extremely valuable chase card it was.
Did you read the article about Nadu? If you frame the other cards around the perspective offered in that article about the card design process it's easy to see how certain "made for commander cards" can slip through the cracks.
It's lazy design on Wizards. Take a broken card and just slap a commander restriction on it. designing specifically for commander allow us to recycle old designs with simple commander paint. What next, a set of 5 commander moxes that each add a single color only spendable on commanders. a timewalk that only works if your commander is in play.
@@Mrbananasgfan nexus of fate but also if you have a commander in play you may pay 0
yup, dockside wasn't as good when it was printed but the multi-player designs are often an issue, especially when corporate issues force hands
I kind of feel like the RC deliberately banned Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus because they were so expensive. Everyone can afford Sol Ring, but in a table of casual players the one deck with one of those rocks has a massive advantage that most casual players can't afford to match.
I got the impression Josh left the CAG due to the RC not communicating with them. I don't think he left due to harassment did he?
Yeah, the impression I got is that he disagreed with the decision to not inform the CAG and that he would rather not be involved at all. We don’t know, of course, but it makes sense to me. I wouldn’t stay on either. He got a huge amount of blame and zero input in this case, so why would he stick around?
Yeah he said in the pod cast that he felt like they didn’t trust any of members of the CAG thus them being left in the dark. Which in and of itself is a very disheartening act to the members.
honestly hated josh being on CAG, especially after the video he released regarding bans. He's explicitly against any banning even if the cards are detriment to the format.
Might have been a combination of the two.
They messed up and didn't consult the CAC and as a result he caught collateral because of that. I'd have left too.
@@Mischievous_Moth For sure, all we know is what nothing he's put out about it, and it's his prerogative. Feeling not used by leaving the group is valid. Feeling *used* by becoming the punching bag for a lot of faceless elder judges is... just as valid.
I was happy with the bans! I got to add four cards to my Golos deck "One Time At Banned Camp".
I like the Golos meme but not sure playing MC and dockside against decks that don't have them is a great idea
@@katesperinck1401 My playgroup knows what they're getting into when they're playing against it.
It's every card on the ban list plus gold border cards as filler to make the entire deck illegal including lands. I also run "One With Death" and if I hit it with Golos, I cast it as my punishment.
@@katesperinck1401 Banned Camp's primary purpose is for when we shuffle a bunch of our favorite wubrg decks together into four communal stacks.
We have each top card revealed and can draw from whichever one we want.
Various commanders are stacked in a deck separately and we draw a new commander each time it is killed instead of commander tax.
It sounded cool before that dude made you explain yourself ngl
@@SirJusticeNugget that sounds amazing
remember that on the original banlist the power 9 were banned because they were so expensive, to keep commander accessible.
200 < 4000 dollars
So timetwister, cradle, led, sanctum, mishra workshop are fine. Yeah right 😂
@@nodekapunk For some people they might as well be the same.
@@TheKingNaesala that’s not how math or money works sadly
@@nodekapunk If the maximum you can spend is $50, 200 and 4000 might as well be the same. It's not a hard concept to understand that some people are poor.
Imagine being such a psychopath that you can't play with your piece of cardboards makes you threaten people's lives.
17:40 Wizards might not consider “card prices”, but they definitely consider set sales when making ban decisions.
And the evidence is right there with Nadu. That card should've been banned immediately on set release in every format with a "whoops, sorry, this card is totally borked our bad". Instead they waited over 2 months and a full PT season to ban it, because they wanted those people opening boosters of MH3.
I own two Mana Crypts, the book promo and Double Masters full art. I'm honestly not upset about it being banned. Having played commander since 2013, I've seen how power has been pushed hard and you have to up your deck's power level to even play games now. I got the vibe of slowing that down. WotC has pushed so much to make money it's crazy. I sometimes wish Commander would have stayed a fringe format. At the end of the day, I don't play Magic to make money, I play it to be a part of a community.
These bans are not going to lower power level . 😅 now I'm calling all my decks just commander "what's your power level" it's commander bro & commander is casual 😆
I also wish commander stayed as a fringe format, but because the rise of commander has been the fall of every single other format. I miss when the majority of magic players played standard.
@@Grumbo-based
@@DVS57REBELthat's not really the case anymore. People are very competitive in commander now. I wish you were right and that people just played casual stuff but now people have this mindset to get the strongest cards and decks and that results in buying whatever is the most expensive mana rock and turboing out a infinite combo by turn 6-8.
@@YugmasterJeffagree nowdays even in casual a lot of people are such tryhards and not just in mtg
Nadu you will not be missed.
Nadu wasn't that OP in commander, and is far from my best deck... I've never seen so much hate because of word of mouth.
@@acmiller25 Especially in the 99, without any free equips. If he is "broken" in the 99, then we need to talk about tutors and combos too.
It's very telling that it's easy to find supporters of Crypt, and almost as easy to find Lotus and Dockside supporters. But the only support I've seen for Nadu are "no bans, ever" sort. Ban that Bird!
@acmiller25 you didn't build a strong nadu deck then.
@@hakarthemage never was a nadu deck. I liked the showcase art and he works well as a simple draw engine/ward
I truly hope any and every single person who would even think about lashing out at individuals about these or any changes to Magic will quit playing and never return, we don’t need those kind of people in our community.
I cannot imagine harassing someone and threatening them, even to the point of death, because of some cardstock. Surely, your life is more than this game.
Agreed. It's okay to express your feelings but it's NEVER okay to resort to death threats and harassment.
Remember kiddos, if RC doesn't show proof of doxxing/threats it's probably a lie to get pity.
Whatever it takes to get them to resign is a valid path at this point.
@@sussygamer3581I’ve literally seen folks do so in comments on facebook :(
@@sussygamer3581 They shouldn't have to show proof of doxxing/threats though. Death threats and harassment are never okay. Period.
this is what happens when you take a causal kitchen table magic format and turn into the most popular format in the game.
This is the best take I've seen a public figure make.
And then the company who makes the game spends nearly 10 years printing cards to arbitrarily rotate the format once they found out it’s free money.
hey demo, still blocking your fans from commenting on your videos when they disagree with you?
Cameo appearance
@@pistolpete7422 God creates dinosaus, god destroy, dinosaur, god creates the man, man creates commander, wizards try to destroy commander, commander destroy standard...
Been waiting for your thoughts. I think it's really interesting how differently everyone takes the bans
I am personally conflicted, I enjoy building casual archetypes Big Stompy, Life gain, etc. but optimizing my decks. I am torn by the MC/JL bans because of how well they enabled my strategies but agree they were broken.
@@joelanderson5285they enable everything. Crypt and lotus especially are just generically powerful cards that crowd out more interesting inclusions. Good riddance.
Definitely an interesting perspective, but Sol Ring being more powerful than Mana Crypt seems pretty wild. Even just in a vacuum, being able to save your limited colored mana to use in conjunction with the 2 colorless is a huge benefit early game, and the ~1.5 life per turn is negligible. Like, the difference between paying mana for an effect and NOT paying mana for the same effect is huge. The gulf between Counterspell and Cancel is vast and easily-recognizable, and going from 2 mana to 3 is a much lower cost relative to going from 0 mana to 1.
It is based on 2 things:
1- Wheter they bought these cards or not.
2- Wheter they played these cards or not.
@@joelanderson5285 I created a borborgymos enraged land throwing commander deck. It has none of the cards banned and it still works. The cards banned are a good thing for people that are casual to play. I literally pack up from games that start with a jeweled lotus followed by sol ring then whatever bullshit.
Gonna be blunt, I cant find it in me to be upset some scalpers lost their ass by buying up limited cards only to be left holding cardboard.
The only format Jeweled Lotus is really playable in now is Historic Brawl, and no one plays Brawl outside of Arena, where Jeweled Lotus doesn't exist. Irony.
If this leads to the formal creation of a CEDH format, I'm sure it will be legal.
Dude, Prof literally told you in the video where Lotus is still played . . .
I'm going to make a modern cheerios deck with 4 copies of lotus just for the memes
@@toedrag-releaseOnly if you put in 4 Darksteel Relics too
@@Eldritch_Panda31 for the memes!
i agree with u prof, in that the way this was announced was not ideal and the ensuing vitriol was and is completely unacceptable. however, as a casual player who only owns one copy of each ( and keeping them), i am on-board with getting them out of the format. too many times rule-0 conversations fail me and people STILL brought excuses as to why they ran them and i’m glad to see them go.
With respect -- if you own a copy of each of those, you're not a casual player. You're just not a hyper-invested, super hardcore player.
A casual player probably doesn't even know off the top of their head what all those cards do, and think that owning any card worth more than $20 or something is outrageous.
@@lightworker2956that's not necessarily true. I own a time vault and probably 15 copies of a single reserved list card (veteran bodyguard ftw). It's quite possible to open them in packs.
Yeah I prefer having an actual ban list after how finicky managing expectations and rule 0 can be. "Signpost banning" doesn't work.
My favorite part of this is all the yugioh players coming out of the woodwork to call the banlist based
I mean Koonami did outright ban a card they literally just printed (which never happens) and is on shelves as we speak, so they probably feel a little fired up.
Its because we have had to deal with this before. Konami hits really expensive cards all the time and the fact people are getting this fired up is just... wtf
You don't want Magic to be Pay to win. Its not good. Yugioh is like that and its really bad. 😂
I mean, the banlist is incredibly based, just incredibly poorly communicated.
@@simonteesdale9752Why should a banlist be communicated? It should solely be to make the format better.
yes, because its obviously making the format better while being a bad decision for the company money-wise. yugioh players are used to spending hundreds on new decks which will be almost worthless 6-9 months later because they are getting banned.
Thank you prof for being kind and considerate while not shying away from valid critique. You are a model for how the modern discourse should be. Again, thank you.
As an outsider, I'll confess the backlash seems wild to me. Everyone was crying about how the existing ban list seemed completely insufficient, then some cards got banned that were auto-includes in almost every deck that could afford or proxy them, and now everyone's furious. Isn't that what a ban list is supposed to do? Mind you, this would absolutely apply to Sol Ring as well, and I agree that the explicit exception kind of undermines the committee's argument.
As to the financial angle, I do understand that, but... cards are supposed to be game pieces, not financial investments. The game rules need to treat them as such. Prof's uncertainly argument actually makes me think this ban might make the format broadly cheaper and more accessible, as players are less-inclined to spend large amounts of money on staple cards.
A lot of this reaction seems to be from people who either hate bans in general or people who treat cards as investments
This has nothing to do with investments. Cards have value, whether that is $1 or $100, we all pay to play. We have the right to be angry when WotC makes these cards available, and then shortly after unilaterally prevents us from using them. We just want to optimize our decks, and we have the disposable income to do it. The people who say that it's just cardboard would never trade away a serialized card for a regular print.
When you ruin a few million dollars worth of potential profits from LGS's it's a bad decision. Every shop any player makes purchases from is only open because MTG game prices are a financial investment stating that it shoulnt be treated as such is an incorrect perspective since they obviously are and have been a financial investment. The issue now is any card over $15-20 is worthy of proxing hell even cheaper cards because someone wants a special art. There's no insensitive to invest in MTG product other than the ability to play with/ collect said product. Because of that proxies will rise MTG profits will fall and LGS's will buy less boxes and sell less singles.@@DanynFineFutureConsiderations
People are already replacing Mana Crypts with Mana Vaults, the price is going up rapidly. And it won't take long for WotC's next Commander (or Modern) only set to introduce the next thing that is an auto-include based on power level. They need to design cards like this to sell their product. They will decline to reprint other format staples until they are $100 or more to get enough "reprint equity" for any other product they fear might otherwise rot on shelves. They have done so in the past, and they've been successful. No reason for them to change. Magic players are cash cows, and WotC knows it.
In a casual game mode (thats what commander is) its actually pretty nice to have some random factor to keep it a bit more fair. Mostly not all decks are same powerlevel and possibilities to have a great card brings everyone a bit closer. Sol Ring is a card, that stands for commander, everybody has like 20 copies of it and is in every precon deck. This is the one random factor card that everyone has in their decks. Well maybe with arcane signet and command tower. But still. Reducing these cards by reducing the cards that arent part of every deck in casual but every deck in competetive is kind of a healthy move for casual commander.
Tbh, if people buy cards for investment, they know its volatile and not save. If they get reprinted they dip, if they get banned they dip. It happens and it always can happen. Only spend money on this that you have and youll be fine. even 20€ for a less than a cent card would be really much imo. why spend 100€?
Reprint base cards until they are ALL chump change. Make specialty arts expensive
Pokemon does this extremely well.
if people buy them whats the problem? wizards is providing a product that people want to buy? nothing wrong with that.
where wizards was being underhanded is in reprinting cards they knew they were going to ban anyway. if they were going to ban a card they just reprinted not too long ago they shouldve given the community at least a 1 year headsup.
but make no mistake those cards did need to be banned... eventually.
Won't happen. The collector boosters are a giant cash machine for wizards and they are full of special prints. Set boosters in the past devalued foils. Collector boosters have devalued all special prints.
Making these more affordable speeds up the format even more. That is something the RC wants to avoid as part of their vision. If you just wanted them to make them more affordable/widespread first, and only then ban them, that seems extremely risky to the health of the format for casual players.
The average game of edh should not be approaching legacy/vintage speed because that is antithetical to casual play and would drive the bulk of players away. These bans set a firm line for where fast mana stands, and how wotc should approach card design and reprints
Imagine starting to play Commander by seeing it on the internet, buying a precon, upgrading it, going to a LGS and see a Jeweled Lotus + Mana Crypt into 6 drop commander on turn 1.
These cards should never have been printed in the first place (and I also hate WoTC making cards specifically for Commander, Nadu was one of them btw). Since they are, they deserve a ban yes.
100% agree with you
I actually think the reprints prompted the ban. More availability -> more people jamming it into their decks -> more poor quality games -> decision to ban.
Agreed. Let's be real. If Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were $1 cards like Sol Ring, they would be auto-includes in every deck. The only reason they weren't in 90%+ of all decks is because of price or self-imposed power level restrictions.
I agree. i take on average 4 turns to get going, but that means I have been getting outpaced for ages. Because I can't afford those fast mana cards. It makes the game incredibly frustrating.
No.
Cards should not be balanced against players' finances.
oh man, sad that this is what brings me back to your wonderful channel. i haven't been paying attention to this hobby for quite a while. RIP Sheldon Menery. You never know what you've got until it's gone.
I feel sorry for those who bought the cards to actually play it because they are steep especially Mana Crypt ($300 or something in Aus iirc) and to have the news that its banned come out of the blue must hurt but I don't care and zero sympathy for those hoarding them to make a profit. These cards shouldn't be as costly as they are and should be more accessible so the prices don't reach these heights when they have high functionality and synergy with decks, if they were printed more the hit and pain for those who paid to play them won't be so deep.
It's my biggest takeaway from all of this outside of knowing that a portion of the community are rabid and care more about the price of a card and making money, than the game itself.
People need to be more careful with their money. The more risky they are with their money, the less emotional they should be when things happen.
So you have zero sympathy for LGS that have 10 or so copys to sell local?
@@ryanoliveira9783no they understood the risk and you know they bought those for the same price it is right now if not cheaper. They’re not hurting that much and if they took a significant loss from that then their business model is doomed to fail anyways.
@@ryanoliveira9783 Some degree of sympathy, but that sort of speculation failure is part of doing business for an LGS. The higher the price of the product they're speculating on stocking, the higher the chance there is of big gains but also the higher the chance is of big losses.
Like, is this really all that different from an LGS stocking too many collector boxes for a certain set, or some other high price point sealed product like a FTV, only to have it end up being a low-demand dud that languishes on the shelf untouched for years? There's plenty of products like that that are only ever going to get sold if the LGS bites the bullet and decides to take a loss on it from the price they paid for it wholesale.
Imagine how I feel now. I got to pull a crypt from a random hunch caverns of Ixalan Best Buy pull before a haircut. I was like a kid on Christmas. Whatever I have one pack of duskmorn here Il open and Il resign. Good luck fellow nerds, hopefully a new card game takes storm.
I'm sympathetic with people who bought these cards relatively recently, but I have none for those sitting on these cards for value.
Yeah, at this point in the life of MTG, everyone should really operate under the assumption that any card not on the RL could tank or skyrocket in value at any moment. So, hold/sell at your own risk. I understand most of the issues people have with the bans (even if I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal), but the ones upset about the financial aspect just don't hold water to me. It's no different than when they reprinted Higure and my Kamigawa foil version of him cratered in value overnight. It's the price I paid for letting it sit in a binder unused for so long.
Plus, with commander being a casual-first format, banlists are more of a recommendation most of the time, so if your group/LGS wants to keep using them then go right ahead.
This is the definitive answer the community should have come up with as a whole. Thank you professor.
i actually agree with most of your takes. I dont think it needed to get banned, but I do agree its probably better for the format and wotc should be blamed mostly for the anger.
I mean, Wotc wasn’t even that informed on the subject.
Rules Comitte had good intentions, but done a horrible and sloppy job with carrying out the bans.
No the fans should be blamed for the anger. Wotc should be blamed for not communicating with their community...
@bingbong6066 the people should never have paid so much for cardboard.
@@bingbong6066 Wotc had nothing to do with the ban tho.
@@Uefeti I mean they kinda are for creating these cards in the first place XD
1:08 bros pulling out the L2, L1, L2 format, I always forget he was an English professor
The shock of the bans was wild, and i regret recently purchasing both a JL and MC however this doesn't affect my table top game. I disagree with how it was handled, however I am appalled at the level of hostility in the community. I worry about the future of commander, because trust has been broken in a real way here. I also don't know if i want to be associated with people who would threaten or harass others on this level. IT IS A GAME.
You're right about the trust being broken
I have a friend who bought JL and MC 2 months ago
He was looking at the watchlist and he's 100% commited to the game he took out Nadu from his deck just because he knew it was coming
Didn't spoke to him recently but I'm sure he's pissed right now
There's probably a few dozen of the 'harasser' types who sent/send these silly threats, which they'd never actually carry out. Magic is a big community. Don't sweat it too much.
Taken me years to build my Krrik deck, haven’t even gotten to play but I’ve watched videos and have been waiting to finally join Friday night magic this year. Removing these two cards kills Krrik imo and now I feel like it’s all for nothing.
I made a separate comment about this on the video but I'm glad. Not about the hostility or death threats that's unacceptable. But I would lose no sleep if this ends commander. I think this stupid format is the worst thing to happen to magic in 30 years.
Well seeing who the newer player base is comprised of im not surprised by the threats . Mtg has been leaning a certain way over the years and gain a lot of support from said group of individuals 😂
Bless The Professor. You actually have the most consistent and reasonable arguments and statement out of the entire community and you couldn't have explained this situation any better. Great job. You are vital to this community.
Waited for this! Always love to hear Profs' views on what's going on in Magic 😁
6:09 honestly, the fact that this HAS to be said is speaking volumes. Whomever did this should be extremely ashamed.
I can’t believe there are people who think the RC like sold all their cards before the announcement, like talk about a “get rich slow” scheme
Fat you're fat for sure
@@TheMArtagnan It's such a dumb conspiracy theory. If it had actually happened, wouldn't the people who got fleeced be shouting about it from the rooftops?
It’s an incredibly bad look for the MTG community. I hadn’t played in ten years and looked up what to bring to a FNM and was shocked that “please take a shower” was a near universal recommendation. So, mean, hateful people with bad hygiene is the feeling of even the MTG community about itself.
@@Kyle7375it’s insane our lgs has started asking people to leave it’s gotten so bad
I wouldn't say I'm upset, but I am a little sad that the Mana Crypt I opened in the Mystery Box I bought from an LGS during lockdown can't be in my pet deck anymore. Even after the bubble burst, it's still the most expensive card I have ever pulled. I have had no intention on selling it, but it was always fun to flex that I got the chase rare as a karmic reward for supporting my local store during tough times. I even double sleeved the deck a couple months ago because of that one card.
They make special frames for cards to display them, might put it on your wall. Even if it's not useful, it's still a reminder of that good you did.
You've got a killer story now though. I think this cemented mana crypt's place on the "iconic mtg cards" list. My dream is collecting the 4 cards that got banned and putting them in a binder page together
That's quite the memorabilia then, I'd say.
@@Kaiasky Iconic cards aren't worth the price tag if they're unplayable
My MtG collection consists entirely of a handful of precons. I was never going to afford or spend the money on a Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt, which means I was always going to be at a disadvantage at any table runnning them. IMO, the bans were a positive step for a format which is meant to draw in casual players more than any other.
Rude. You didn't say "oh, hello"
I think he needed to set the tone that this is A serious problem, (I know you were probably joking but the death threats are very important to address
I still heard it in my mind when he turned his head to us
"Many magic the gathering players have been tweaking"
@@Lemon_Sage9999many rules committee members have asked the question, am I safe in my own home?
I do wonder were the bans so sweeping and unprecedented? Or was it more so that with the Magic Hyighlander format becoming so much bigger in the last 10 years that people weren't properly used to big bannings? Since I would have assumed that the power 9 being banned back in the day even though it was more of a ban for making the format not crazy expensive was a more sweeping change. It's just a change from much longer ago.
I suppose you could argue that banning the power 9 was a "bigger" change, but that change happened in June 2005, which would have been in the middle of the Kamigawa block. I played regularly back then, and I only ever heard one person even mention EDH and no one at my LGS played it. This was so early, that they had only recently allowed you to play more than one copy of a basic land.
I've been playing the format for 12 years now. this is by far the biggest and most sweeping ban they've done since I started.
The closest thing I can remember it being impacting to this was when they banned Prophet of Kruphix, and that's not even close to this.
The biggest problem with this banlist was that it didn't happen many years ago, both dockside and jeweled lotus have been problem cards since day 1 of being printed and they should have been banned longed before they reached the price they did
This has been tied to sheldon and his health. we are far enough away from his passing to move forward. expect more changes
You know it's bad when the Prof is disappointed
I really appreciate you taking a serious tone to the beginning of this video. It's vile how some people are responding and needs to be addressed LOUDLY.
i mostly blame wotc for being a piece of shit when it comes to pushing expensive chase cards of shit that shouldn't have existed in the first place and being allergic to reprints
if these were 10-20 dollar cards nobody would care
Yeah, as far as I can tell no one REALLY cares that the cards were banned so much as they money they lost because of this.
100% its the reason Sol Ring is still around (despite it being equal or stronger then Mana Crypt) is because its a card everyone has easy access too (being that its printed in every precon) so no one (should) complains about Sol Ring because its a card everyone has access too. If these 3 cards were affordable & not keep aside for WOTC to keep as chase cards then they'd be no need for a ban.
I would care, I play cEDH and a lot of what the format did kinda balanced through these cards on how they played. As a casual player, I’m ambivalent because I haven’t had any of the games I’ve played in the past 6 months get shaken up because I just don’t see crypt or dockside of jeweled lotus in my casual games in a format that is disruptive. If I had it in my decks the next best option for my deck wouldn’t have weakened the deck substantially, but as a cEDH player it defo shrinks a lot of the variance that was spread across that meta in a disappointing way. Not happy with the bans purely as a player.
Or if they were more easily found in 'non premium' product.
Indeed.
I still think the mythic rarity was an unjustified cash grab.
Completely missed the community response to this. Glad I'm not on Twitter or Reddit.
Also, I'm very hopeful for the Silver Border movement I saw tacked on to the ban announcement. I love Silver Border/Acorn cards, but the rule 0 conversation every single time I want to play turns me off from playing those decks
Check the official Commander site for the write up Jim did on that, if you haven't read it already. Titled 'The Silver-Bordered Project'
We should be getting an update on soon.
It was actually kinda funny though if you aren't a Member of the "Rule Board".
Most people neiter play in Tournaments nor do they care about the fact that those cards will rise in value again anyway; it's literally just the fact that you take away an advantage they had against randoms.
Or that they literally viewed paper cards as real investments in their financial security.
Which is ild on its own.
😂 in my group we turn silver border weekly 😂 literally hard no from the other 7 players. Un sets it's a silly money grab
Keep playing them
The tiers in the Silver Border project make a lot of sense for ordinary black-border too. Standard commander; probably OK but you ought to check first; have a detailed discussion because it does seriously stretch the boundaries; not under any circumstances. I could see a situation where the entire ban list works like that. There are a lot of cards, like Jeweled Lotus for example, which probably belong in a check-first category.
Having two tiers of semi-banned cards makes it a lot easier to get folks on the same page. While established pods might have an easy time getting everyone to the same frame of reference, pickup groups don’t. If someone shows up with a “probably OK” deck, it’s a lot easier for someone to say “let’s just play standard.”
Magic is not meant to be an investment vehicle. Nor should it be. It's cardboard.
That part
Exactly. Cardboard game pieces with no intrinsic value are not an investment.
I remember chatting about MTG with a friend's friend about the Warhammer set, and I could never connect to him because all he cared was the prices of the cards, and how he is losing money, when I just wanted someone to chat about builds.
Yes, it shouldnt be the primary purpose, but it existiting in that way keeps the game alive. Even for casuals who buy product, the idea that someday you'll be able to/even have the option to trade some cards is a huge factor in buying any sort of sealed boxes or packs.
All TCG's need some sense of value. Its a requirement. That's how they survive and exist.
@@verzun8470 The dollar value has nothing to do with your ability to collect or trade cards. We did it before they ever put prices on them. The monetary value brings more people into the scene, but it's debatable whether that is actually healthy for the game. I personally think the people who are Magic because of the money are both bad for the game, and stupid. If the game ever dies entirely, the cards will be worthless in fairly short order.
The only reason why this is an issue at all is because of resale value of cards. It isn't a problem that a card has been banned and players need to replace it, it is that a card they had spent money on, that they expected to be able to potentially resell in the future has had its value erased. As such people are reacting as if the rules change reached into their wallets and robbed them.
Ban outrage boils down to the thing we've known forever: Commander players hate when you touch their cards lol. From creature theft, to wheeling, now to bans...don't touch the cards lol.
Meanwhile, here I am stealing Aragorn's sword and swapping it with a rinky dinky clue token right after that player just called the card one of the best in their deck.
"DON'T TOUCH MY BOATS!"
its not commander players its speculative investors and cEDH sweats who also play other competitive formats. for every 1 person whinging about this there are 1000 casual players who either like it or don't care, stop being vitriolic for no reason. i hear more about commander players from basically everyone who isn't one than commander players themselves.
And don't you dare play a board wipe or counter my 30 cmc dinosaur
@themoops4006 are you saying cEDH players don't count as commander players?
wotc has an incentive to make their cardboard valuable. the commander council has a duty to make the format healthy and fun. I think the idea that commander can be an 'anything goes infinite power level infinite expensive cards' is silly, especially when its one of the most popular formats. Mana crypt being a staple in the most popular format is bad.
thats why you need 2 commander formats and a banned list separate not this subjective level 3 5 7 crap
I still don't get how Thassa's Oracle didn't get banned yet
I have a question for MTG peeps cuz I'm new
Everyone keeps going "they should have told us ahead of time they were gonna hit Mana Crypt and Jewelled Lotus"
But like
Functionally what difference is there from doing that and releasing the list right
Like if the argument is that just dropping the list made it impossible to sell the copies
If like a month ago the committee had said "oh next month we're banning crypt lmao" the exact same thing would have happened a month ago, no? Everyone who had a copy would try to instantly dump it, and nobody would buy it cuz it would be dead in a month
And if community outrage would have caused them to change their mind then your rules committee has allowed itself to be bullied for the sake of financial gain on the playerbase and it will happen again every time an expensive card is too meta
Then you have Yu-Gi-Oh situation where the shiny cards dodge lists for as long as Komoney is seeing profit, and then banned when everyone has one lol
I also don't really like the watchlist as a concept but I gather that players do so I'll understand that it's my lack of experience there
I also do not think they should consider the financial aspect at all
Unless it's a situation where there are two cards that jointly cause damage to a format, and hitting either one can feasibly solve this problem without creating any new ones
So essentially the last tiebreaker
I think you misunderstood sonething. If the RC just tells people the card is gonna be banned in a month it will ofc not change anything.
People want the RC to announce the cards they are considering to ban - create a watchlist.
The RC has not banned anything since forever, then they tell us that a certain (reasonable) card is being considered for banning (so everyone thinks cards go on a watchlist before being banned).
No one was surprised by the Nadu ban and everyone understood it. They could have just banned Nadu (and maybe Dockside), thus signaling that they will take a more active approach in the future, then announce that they are considering other cards to be banned.
This 1: would not leave everyone completely taken aback by the bans.
2: would leave room for discussions in the community (which the RC could hear out)
3: would not give any reason for the backlash this decision got.
You can see in other formats that this approach is working (like with the One Ring mentioned in the video). Everyone knows this card could be banned. People still buy it. But if it gets banned, they have no justification to blame the RC for their loss of money.
The answer lies in psychology, people see losses spread out over a long period of time as less painful than a sudden loss.
Your total right here no matter what they do the price was going to tank
it's about how quickly the prices drop. saying that you're going to ban the cards in a month means that the crash is going to happen over the course of the month instead of overnight. people holding the bag have a chance to sell it and still get something back, and people that never got to use these cards get a chance to buy and play with them at a discount for a short amount of time.
This a complex issue:
- The Inflation of the cost of living and the High cost of Cardboard Luxury Rectangles probably resulting in a a number of players walking the proverbial plank of financial distress, to have WOTC prop up these cards as the ''chase cards in a set, only to have the cards banned. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
- The Ruling Committee not consulting CAG due to trust issues attempting to ensure that there is no inside trading like the Painter's servant from the last bannings years ago. We Remember, y'all have had years to fix this problem.
- The RC need to recognize how big CEDH is now and perhaps make a Competitive RC with it's own ban list which would be far less than the current casual EDH ban list.
- Remember the rule #0 and that the RC Banlist is not the Sanctum Sanctorum it is a suggested ban list, EDH is casual. CEDH is not ''as'' casual.
- Nadu was a mistake. Jeweled Lotus is a mistake, Gavin even admitted it. Jeweled Lotus should never have been printed or be printed in every commander precon till it is pennies! Dockside should have actually read '' When Dockside ETB's create X treasures, where X is the number of artifacts and enchantments TARGET opponent controls'' Dockside affecting all opponents was the real problem, a design problem.
- Richard Garfield: “My intuition is that having a $20 card is about right. If these $50 cards are being driven by non-play elements, like a foil, that's one thing. I don't really care about that.'' Cardboard should never be worth that much :P
I agree with you. In my mind the biggest issue (outside or harrassment and death threats obviously) is not talking to the CAG.
The fact that Insider Trading has even been an issue for a childrens card game is entirely on Hasbro/WotC.
cEDH would die if it didn't share the same banlist as casual edh
Outside of entire regions creating their own banlists (china) cEDH can only live by being the highest you can push edh within the bounds of the banlist that exists
The "financially distressed people willing to spend 100s of $ on a card" argument should need its own video.
I never met such a person, but I know they exist, and they need help (financial, but also psychological, imho).
@@V2ULTRAKill Italy has a separate banlist for compettive duel commander. Guess what? Lotus, Dockside and Crypt are already banned (alongsode other 0-1cmc ramp and 1cmc tutors)
But what about the insider trading done by the RC? I don't see a world where they wouldn't have off loaded their Crypts/Lotus's/Docside's before the announcement.
Thank you professor, except for Nadu I don't believe the other three cards needed to be banned. At least in my experience rule Zero would have keep it in check.
It's kind of like the argument in pauper with artifact lands. So many people want them gone, but at the same time believe it is a staple definition of the format since it's one of the only places you can actually use them.
Jeweled lotus should have been printed to the ubiquitous status that sol ring has.
Agreed
As someone less than a month into the hame
Playing against jeweled lotus as often as I see Sol Ring sounds utterly miserable.
@@simonteesdale9752 sol ring is +1 the turn it hits and +2 each after that. Lotus is +3 with restriction. If every sol ring was replaced with Lotus the game would slow down.
@TrixyTrixter I mean, I'd love to see Sol Ring banned too...
However, the comment I replied to wasn't talking about making a swap, but instead just printing Lotus at the same rate Sol Ring is.
Anyway. Proxy. Everything. Proxy basic lands
Im new what does proxying basic land do?
@@CaitofFate Nothing but that's funny, i will consider doing that with my playgroup
@@aether6293 huh. Okay!
@@CaitofFate Proxy means to not buy the real cards but instead use something as a standin for that card. Normaly proxies are random bull cards in a sleve with a paper saying what the real card it represents is.
@@TrixyTrixter i know what a proxy is.
I just dont know what proxying basic lands would do
The thing is commander is a community format. For us at the kitchentable nothing changed, we are a playgroup of 8 People and have our own banlist becouse we have our own vision how games should be run.
If people are so upset that their cards got banned, talk to your playgroups you can still rule 0 those cards. We are people and we can communicate how we want to run our games. For all those who frequently visit official events i feel a little sad (only becouse these cards are expensive and for all people who bought them recently it must be frustrating)
Take care guys, vent your frustration in moderation and have a nice weekend.
A very, very clever man, one pointed out that a single care should never cost more than $20. If you know, you know.
Synergy to me is better than relying on a few game pieces to help run the deck
Proxy everything. I have absolutely no desire to own anything worth more than 5 dollars specifically for commander unless it’s reserved list anymore.
It literally doesn’t matter. The “rules committee” isn’t even affiliated with wizards. Just play the game how you and your friends want.
I think it matters a lot. I can't get my friends to agree on much. I'm super glad these cards are gone. Literally just un-fun.
You can play however you want on your own table, at your house or a friend's, but if you're playing in a public place or in an official tournament or where there could be beginners then these bans make total sense. The game is already expensive enough as it is and daunting when you first get into it.
Every game with friends is pure modern if not commander
It was fun to see all the content of mtg creators - videos, blogs, etc. - saying, that they "definitely, really, di not know anything whatsoever about the cards getting banned." I think the bans are good for the most part, and you can still ask your table or your friends if it's an issue to use one or all of them.
@14:40 I think it's disingenuous to loop 1 and 2 mana, not net positive ramp (Talismans, mana dorks, signets, arcane signet) in with 0 mana ramp, especially when mana dorks need external haste/a pass around the table and must survive, to Crypt and Lotus. Sol ring is of course, comparable, as is Grim. Lotus is one use and done, making the idea of interacting with it laughable. It doesn't touch the table unless its proceeding to the yard with you 3 mana richer.
Signaling players to "part ways" with their high value cards before a ban is just passing the buck: Someone is going to be financially impacted by these bans: the Stores that buy them or Other player that may, or may not, know the risk, as not every player keeps up with the more nuanced posts of online forums.
17:50 Dockside has been mentioned multiple times in previous banlist updates
I feel like you need to explain why 1 mana -> tap for 2 is a stronger card than 0 mana tap for 2.
Honestly, while i have historically valued your opinion and generally come to you for honest, nuanced discussion of these topics. I got out at 18:15, after the above statement. This video smacks of establishment griping, and I feel you are leveraging your celebrity to gripe.
I will say, on a positive note, your summary of the situation with community reaction, harassment, threats, and disdain was on point, and refreshing. Most other creators i follow have been apologizing to people that lost value and not willing to touch these very important, community critical points. In what way are we a community if we treat the thought leaders this way when something we don't like happens?
I look forward to your next video Prof, but I think you need to take another look at your views on ramp and interaction before defending this one.
people have died to their own mana crypt not so with sol ring
I think WOTC should stay away from Commander other than precons. Don't make cards for Commander. It seems like the biggest issue is the value of these cards. I have only ever played against a Mana Crypt and I just knew I was playing a much weaker deck than that person. I do feel for the cedh community and believe there needs to be something in place to let them play the power cards they want to play. With that being said, I still feel like a ton of pods will rule 0 these cards in, and from reading some comments, people are going to keep running these cards. These bans don't change any of my decks cause I try to play level 5 or 6 decks cause I find Commander to be best when it is janky and silly decks. I always found super optimized decks weird in a casual format, but casual seems to mean different things for different folks. Overall, the face that the community has shown these last couple days has put a huge sour taste in the mouth.
cool thanks for your opinion others have different opinions though too
from a cEDH perspective, I'm glad that they didn't just ban Dockside and Nadu only. Because Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus while rewarding the players in the first / second seats, Dockside punishes too much early mana acceleration. So, I think it's balanced in some way. Although I think a card like Dockside should have never been printed, the reason to play red is kind of dead.
Not really under world breach is very good card
The fact that the professor had to specify legacy doubling mana deck made me laugh so hard i knew there would have been that guy
It's a fucking card game guys.
"It's fucking expensive dude!" -quote
A card game with particularly vile subject matter. I say that as someone who admires the appeal of the cards and wonders why at the same time.
I gotta agree with the comments here. More reprints would literally just speed the game up. Their inqccessability is literally the only reason people dont just put one in every deck - cause NOT every player has the mental ability to stick to a lower powerlevel when they see a chance to upgrade and pretending it is is just ignoring the biggest problem.
Finally someone that gives an actual opinion. This is a great video. I agree completely.
Plenty have, Bosh n' Roll's video is really good whether you disagree with him or not
As always, TCC and The professor are the voice of reason in a sea of craziness. It's NEVER acceptable to harass or threaten individuals over a card game.
2:28 Well said, we're all mad however there will always be a correct way and an incorrect way to respond to such news and acting like a mindless lunatic or a zoo baboon is absolutely uncalled for
Yea sure but what does telling all the normal people who don’t do that actually do? The crazy person willing to take it that far isn’t going to listen. It’s just virtue signaling. Besides being threatened on twitter is hardly a real credible threat.
The real problem is that there is no actual productive way for people to voice these complaints to the RC and no way for members of the RC to be removed. Currently the RC is acting like they are just as untouchable as Sol Ring. While people are definitely going too far it's really just a symptom of how poorly managed the RC is.
@gVidsIsGone absolutely, poor management all around for the last few years now, it seems for not just the RC but the company as a whole. I feel like they act as if they are "untouchable" or "head strong" because we as a player and fan base enable it. Not slowing down for nothing buying products even through they keep shitting on us and pushing us to see exactly what they can get away with doing. Most of what they do these days is met with criticism with no long-term repercussions.
@@leosc24 at least for WOTC we can be heard by not buying sealed product. For the RC they are a position that really should be an elected position since there really is no way to hold them accountable for mistakes.
The price of individusl chase cards is more self inflicted than anything else. At the end of the day this is a casual format and we really don't need the best cards possible in decks for them to make the game fun. There was a command zone podcast a while ago where they talked about how when they sit down at a table their goal is for everyone to have a fun game instead of themselves winning all the time. If everyone played casual games with this idea then we wouldn't have crazy chase cards and WOTC wouldn't be pushing power creep this much and instead push cards that have interesting mechanics (which honestly might cause more nadu issues) or likely more rare art/serialized/limited edition printings.
If players are sitting down at tables where their main goal is winning then they need to be playing in a competitive format like cedh and not regular commander.
5:20 f-yes, Prof. The immaturity and petulant foot-stomping is disgusting. I really do feel for people that lost a bunch of money. I feel for people who have to make changes to their decks. I fit in both of those groups. That said, I can both disagree AND understand the reasoning behind the bans. I can object to how the bans were implemented AND accept that this is something that happens in games. I got my cards knowing that bans and reprints are part of the game, and I’m willing to accept that as par for the course. I do also get that a store can’t have that same cavalier attitude, as they are on often slim margins and need every bit of help they can get.
I'll start by saying I don't often agree with some of the takes here, but I was very pleasantly surprised by this video.
I don't think anyone, even Nadu players, care that Nadu was banned.
Dockside unfortunately was abused and therefore I understand it's banning, however with the way it scaled with table power it was a good tool, I.E. if I bring a cEDH deck to mubstomp my casual LGS, Dockside is typically one of the worse early rituals in my deck, however if I drop a handful of fast mana and an opponent plays a Dockside, it doesn't make us even but it gave them some kind of chance, these are of course extremes, but effectively it had the ability to close a gap in power imbalance.
Lots and Crypt... everyone says the game is too fast, you're all correct, in the past 10 years EDH power creep has happened substantially, and the fast decks are consistently and reliably fast, so consistent and reliable in fact, that banning 2 mana rocks won't slow them down, think if a deck intends to win by turn 2 then any mana source can be a Ritual, a deck that wants to win turn 5 needs some permenant mana sources, and a deck that wins by turn 10 can't rely on rituals to cast their more expensive spells each turn.
On that basis, the fast decks have more opportunity to replace these cards, while the decks that struggle to keep up need these cards to contend, this theory applies in both casual and competitive.
EDH at its core is about playing your janky ideas, creative freedom, but like it or not the format is faster with or without these cards, and banning them has only removed some tools for the slower decks to keep up with these changes and taken aways some of that creative freedom, making some decks less viable as a direct result and forcing people away from timmy cards and toward a more consistent and overall higher tier out of necessity.
Last note because my thoughts on the bans suggest those building slower decks have access to these cards, I'm aware that not everyone does, and that's down to limited printing and inflated cost, but by banning them, affordable or not, the potential to use them is gone
Thank you Professor for being a voice of reason and sound argument for this game we so cherish.
I just got into this game and wow, magic is kinda deep lol. Seriously though, if you threaten someone over a card game you really need some professional help.
The magic community has an incredibly selective memory that never forgets.
my condolences... ; )
Maybe RC needs professional help instead. Its really childish not to expect serious retaliation after you derail one of the most succesfull products with that kind of arguments. Maybe they use their brains next time over some “we want a slower format so we think you want that either” type of answer.
I really hope that RC takes more hits before Wizards wrecks them all. Cheers.
Defending people that make death threats, and victim blaming people that are just trying to make that card game better, is again a sign that someone needs professional help.
Its about money bro
I call for lower prices if no cards are safe moving forward. I've already had about 11 peoples come to the local store last night to sell their collections...trust as you say has been shattered.
you have such a great way of talking to the incredibly wide age range of people watching your channel
@tolariancommunitycollege Thank you Prof for so directly addressing the insane level of immaturity and harassment that is occuring. There is no universe where it's acceptable to threaten someone's safety over a card game, and the people who are acting that way or speaking with such careless hyperbole as to encourage it should be worse than ashamed of themselves.
So thank you again for your carefully chosen words and deep compassion. I hope community sees your example and chooses to be better.
Sounds like someone is doing the exact thing to others that he just said not to do 😆
show us proof and go to the police, otherwise is just cry for pity
We haven't used the casual ban list in 4 years, the copious amounts of play groups that actually don't use that list....is a very high percentage, play what your group wants and allows.
Make every card in basic rarity and alt arts for rarity. Players are happy and collectors have something too. Put two holos in each pack and some have a chance to be a special treatment or full art or something. Control the supply of cool looking cards but not power. I think that’s a fair compromise
To be honest, I don't understand the blow up here. An arbitrary group for a community format bans a card; ok, my friends and I can still play it if we want. No one is forcing me to give up the cards and I'm sure with such backlash that there are plenty of people still willing to allow it to be seen in play. I suppose if you're playing cEDH and Wizards is sanctioning it...perhaps Wizards should be in control of these bans anyway and it will either stay banned for a good reason or be reversed. Lots of anger for something that doesn't warrant what's taking place. I also don't own these cards, but I would still consider buying them for the sake of collecting, even with them banned.
I feel the discussion on watchlists, and your example about The One Ring in Modern, fails to recognize that TOR would retain likely 80% of its value because of Commander. And the potential loss is offset because of the potential value having them in Modern carries. If you win $100 in modern tournaments before you sell to commander players, they are up on money and took very little risk.
It only takes a few collectors moving 10-15 of these cards to trigger a rush to sell. Watchlists would trigger sell offs because of the prominence of proxies in casual commander. Why hold onto an asset that you assume will tank when you can make a fake one and get the enjoyment out of it?
This is probably not true. TOR might not drop under 10 after a modern ban, but seeing that its not as prevalent in legacy as it is in modern, and a lot of its current value is due to the amount of decks its in in modern driving the demand through the roof, I would wager it takes at least a 50% hit.
TOR is special because unlike card like nadu or hogaak, TOR is present in over half the format and can easily fit in every deck. So even though Nadu decks had a crazy 20% of the showing, TOR was in 50% of the decks, while Nadu was only in the 20% mentioned earlier. I would easily wager that over 80%, probably 90% of the decks that currently have a TOR in it are modern decks.
@@th3summoner I’m doubtful because I seriously can’t imagine a commander deck where TOR wouldn’t fit.
It will also maintain value because of a seemingly inability to reprint it and its ties to LOTR. It will go down. I’d be shocked if it dropped below $65. It’s just that good of a card and they probably can’t reprint it.
As much as I agree that this decision was made very callously by the committee, fact of the matter is Mana crypt should have NEVER been reprinted and jeweled lotus was the most aggressive, egregious printing in years, maybe the last decade. That thing was cancer from the beginning. It’s not the rules committee’s job to maintain the games secondary market economy. It’s their job to maintain the health of the format as best they can. If these people are that angry it should be directed at Wizards and more specifically Hasbro. This is about profit. Those cards were printed to make money for the company. All these collectors and “stores” should know the risks involved when you base your entire business strategy off a trading card game secondary market. This is coming from someone who at one point had close to a six figure collection.
If you bought any of these cards to play in commander you PROBABLY play cedh level decks (weirdly besides dockside just cuz its good and fun for red decks and can be kinda fair). If youre upset as a cedh player I feel you, but this is why cedh and regular commander should be SEPARATE FORMATS.
Cards should be banned in casual commander if they often accidentally or essentially always intentionally do something egregiously BS. Jeweled lotus and mana crypt (and sol ring) absolutely are part of this category... but these cards as part of cedh are fine.
Honestly the RC are just bad at their job. Theyre poor communicators who for the longest time made almost no decisions which wasnt good and then made a ton at once which wasnt good. We didnt even get unbans with this announcement when we have cards that arent even remotely banworthy on the list lol
Commander advisory group feels like a meme and the RC feels like just an offshoot puppet branch of WotC with kind of behavior. Tbh the RC and ban list should be abolished and people should just be more socially diligent about the kind of cards they do and dont wanna play with. People should run sideboards that help augment the power of their decks for super salty or powerful cards anyway.
Not upset picked up a crypt for 40 bones. Happy as a lark to finally have one.
I’m going to try and get a jeweled for $20-25. Worst case it looks nice in my binder
@@Bored_Barbarian indeed was thinking about the full art from commander masters myself. Just beautiful
I'm hoping it reaches a level I'm comfortable with, of course I want the original version and that may drop as much.
p.s. If cedh actually splits off and makes its own banlist, these cards could recover a fair bit.
The Crypt art from LCI is one of the best in the game imho❤
as i come from yugioh this is tame but as a new player i didnt expect that kind of reaction
Same. And from what I understood, MTG players always thought us YGO players were the babies. 🤔
Yeah same, we are used to this kind of bans. But the response and doxxing/death threats has been like a splash of cold water
The thing with yugioh is that you can expect bans to always happen no matter what.
Just please, don’t let the death threats veil the over all fact that this is a bad idea. Shame some people ruin it for the rest
As someone who has been slowly building up an edh deck for years due to price watching tons of edh on TH-cam, this is huge so many decks run on these cards. They are pricey and sought after, so if you invest or get lucky enough to pull one, people feel robbed. So financially it’s bad and it ruins peoples decks that they have been trying to accumulate for years.