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Grief Is The Real Problem With Modern - Why Modern Horizons 3 Will Make It Worse!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 พ.ค. 2024
- Grief has finally just gone too far in Modern, lets talk about it...
#mtg #magicthegathering #problem #modern #crazy
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I always thought that grief was more unfun. I have the same relationship with discard. Discard spells are 'offensive counterspell' + your opponent knows whats in your hand + they are typically cheaper. While a counterspell must be used defensively (can be played around much more easily). Your opponent chooses what gets discarded (very rare that you choose what is discarded); You (in a way) choose what gets countered. It is inherently better to be aggressive/offensive than to be defensive in this game...Nobody cares though
If you have Grief and one of... like 16 other cards in your deck, you win. Like, you take their removal and their turn one play, you have a 4/3 or a 3/2 with menace, they already lost.
Here i am waiting for some neat commons shaking the pauper format upp 😂
Looks promicing so far since the higher rarity cards seem insane 😆
Oi you listen here m8y, Fury bloody killed off MULTIPLE lowest toughness creatures, to hell with that they should have both gone
I'm going to keep commenting until he sees this: EXACERBATE is the word, not exacterbate.
8 rack is now black modern Horizons tribal while playing the rack. Its not the 8 rack i grew up with
Free spells are honestly one of the worst invention the game designers could have come up with and the last thing we need is more of them.
Force of Will and the Pacts were good enough. We never needed more
This makes me sad. I love deck building, and I was building a deck similar to this. Just getting back into the game after 20 years.
Thing with discard vs counters and kill spells is the opponent never pays the mana for a discarded spell counters and kill spells the opponent has sunk his mana into those spells
Yeah people saying discard is better than counters have lost the plot, counterspell at its strongest feels like a time walk lol.
THIS
100%, being proactive and not time walking someone out of the game. I feel so sorry to the Uxy players that black is getting its time in the sun.
Grief should have been a duress, not a thoughtseize.
That would make it weaker. Things must be stronger. They gotta sell packs here!
As a lover of thoughtseize I HATE grief, its so much more toxic
I agree with grief on top of 3 for 3 you get information on the deck turn 1 potentially come in
I don’t know if we can assume there’s gonna be a lot imprint cards (let alone playable ones) just cause we see one card with imprint. And the Flares’ free mode isn’t exactly free, as you still need a nontoken creature of the appropriate color on the battlefield for it to be free. As well, you need to be ok with playing something that is low-enough impact that you don’t mind sacrificing while also being high-enough impact that it justifies its inclusion when you don’t draw the Flare early/at all.
Hey!! ThatMillGuy plays fighting games! Cool! Would love to see some gameplay.
I love grief and modern!!!
I don’t like any game that creates helplessness, scam is miserable, and when control turns the corner, their both miserable to play against
*they're
Grief and thought seize effects are extremely unfun.
I have played mill at my LGS for 2 years now. I've never gotten upset over a turn 1 grief, because it costs the opponent so much to get it to work. T1 consists of land, pitch card, grief, resurrect spell. 4 cards of their seven are gone on turn 1. Only 2 of mine are gone. Even if those were my best 2 cards, I'm still able to play my lands, cast my spells, etc. over the next few turns. The opponent has invested so much to stop my gameplan, while setting themselves so far behind. Sure I am probably taking 3 damage for the next 7 turns. But if I can't recover by then, I'm not milling/controlling well enough to ever have a hope of beating that anyways. If I lose to a 7 turn clock from turn 1... I am drawing so poorly that I doubt the two cards I lost could have helped me do any better.
All of that to say, Grief is not a problem. If it is a problem, restructure your opening hand philosophy. Don't keep a 7 that you're going to be upset over losing a card or two from. Keep a hand with 3 threats, or no threats. I tend to keep land heavy hands because there is 1 crab there. Or conversely 1-2 land hands because I can always draw the third by turn 3, or cycle my way to a third land before the 7 turn clock ends.
That's not how grief works, it's a 4.3 menace on t1 and when you try to remove it you can get blown out again with another undying spell. The problem is taking like 12 damage off of grief on top if it leaving you with no removal for it
@@soup8786 it’s only a 4/3 when the undying effect resolves. You have a chance to respond to the activation of the undying spell. Like any white deck that runs exile based removal can answer that shit easily.
@otakuamerican5190 not really because you get to look at their hand first before you make that decision. Sure if you want to evoke solitude t2 to get rid of it In response to the etb you can. But then you just spent two card and lose a 3rd card and the game is in a dire state for you. So no you can't answer it easily.
@@soup8786 no the opponent can respond to the scammer before having to reveal their hand. The ability goes in the stack so you can respond with removal. Also you draw a card for turn your replacing one of the cards you lost the turn one scammer doesn’t draw a card. And if your really worried about scam just play decks with better top decks potential like burn
@otakuamerican5190 yes but like I said on the play the only answer then is solitude and that's not a good play. Then you 1 for 2 yourself and then have a card discarded and the scam player just doesn't use the undying spell. In the mid game sure you can binding it but they have other tools online then and can TS you to check for instant speed exile. On top of that instant speed white removal being the only way to favourably interact with is not a good place to be.
Man, it’s almost like people were complaining about the wrong evoke elemental when they all went after fury instead of the real problem card. Still waiting on all those x/1 based decks to make a comeback.
Fury was the bigger problem. I immediately brought out the Elves deck that I had just started building prior to MH2. Stop acting like the small sample pool of MTGO is at all reminiscent of what real players can play in paper.
This 100%
@@Xoulrath_ Fury was not a bigger problem, plenty of X/1 creatures existed within the format while Fury was legal. Afrer the printing of Bowmaster you can see a real downtick in X/1 creatures.
@@CodiTC sure.
@@CodiTCfury absolutely sucked as well let's not pretend it didn't
Free spells are always a problem. And wizards never learns the lesson.
They learn the lesson. Print crazy broken powerful cards and is fools can’t help ourselves. Take our 💰
...man stumbled through three different Urza, Ugin variations and still said the wrong card. But your take is solid
'Grief should have been banned" has been consensus all along afaic. Everyone knew Scam was going to eat some sort of ban and almost everyone was talking about Grief.
Im just going to build a modern werewolves deck and have fun. Will I win? Probably not but I’ll have fun with it
So in SF6 terms Scam is the pre nerf JP while you are in burnout?
The problem is the scam still feels like current JP cause he's still a top pick
@@ThatMillGuyShaf I know, he's still very very good.
Weird question, is that a Yeti Nano?
I thought mill players were the worst?
Ha, Grief isn't so bad! I'll just run my Torpor Orbs! I can get them out on turn 2 and...
Depending on ur deck u can get it out turn 1 after mh3 comes out XD
@@therealjeromeo4366 That's right. All I need is Orb and Labyrinth. And an extra artifact. And not to mulligan too many times. And God's mercy...
Torpor orb prevents the effect, but doesn't rushing out a Trinisphere just slow this down long enough to lose? Preventing the evoke casting until T2/T3 seems the stronger option here...
@andrewamann2821 Definitely. But I was being facetious. Hinging your game plan on having cards in hand that stop Grief is not a great plan, and on top of that Orb lets your opponent keep a free beater. Rushing a Tsphere is much better, but probably enough harder that you risk getting blown out anyway.
The issue is the free spell losing to scam on turn 4 or 2 solitude on turn 8 i dont really see a difference. There should be better ways to punish this style of play. The game just needs to grow .
Run interaction
The interaction gets removed turn 1 they scam you, then you hope to top deck the removal, most likely you don't, let's say you draw bolt on turn 2 you go to bolt it they feign death grief stripping another card out of your hand.
Nothing about that is balanced, fair or fun. It is a miserable gameplay experience.
If thoughtseize doesn’t exist then the game becomes solitaire.
You think the only interaction in the game should be the one that leaves the opponent with no legal game actions?
Yes. Blue control decks have been doing it for years.
They can also pass turn.
@@seanward5160 this is some serious cognitive dissonance. If you cast a spell and it gets countered, that isn't solitare, that's an interactive game. And second, if you cast a spell, you're taking a legal game action, whereas if you don't have a spell to cast you can't take a game action.
@@eLECHtricity keep a hand with 7 lands
They need to make some low cost high powered creatures😊
2 mana 8/8.
As much as i agree that Grief is a strong card, you said yourself that you are bias in this discussion because you view the conversation through a subjective lense of not liking discard while also playing one of the most abnoxious type of a deck that you can play "mill". Discard exists for decades and considering how og Pox, Doomsday were utilized with dark ritual long before you even had force of will you had about the same feeling of loss as you have now. I am personally glad that discard is a vital part of the game and alongside other deck archetypes like Mill, it has its place amongside best decks. It was inferior for about 20 years with some exceptions here and there. Game is shifting and modern is expanding. Thats all. Is the card powercreep design good? not rly. But that statement includes all deck archetypes.
Why are we complaining about an archetype that isn't even tier one? Grief is not oppressive, it is necessary to balance the format. This would be a valid complaint pre-MH, but we are no longer existing in this world.
"I dont like thoughtseize" neat.
"I dont like grief" I get it.
"I dont like these cards, and because I dont like those cards I am going to use my platform to ban them so that my tier 2/3 deck can get marginally better" not okay.
"I am going to create an echo chamber with my platform to get people riled up about grief" not okay.
Good cards are allowed to exist in a format. Just because they hate on your favorite play style doesnt make them bannable.
I do have a lot of problems with MH3, but I actually want to compliment the caveat of "Sac a non-token color creature". It's strong, it's restrictive, and it opens up sac opportunities. That being said, Modern is always going to be a race to the bottom. All they need to do is release one insane card per set and we're always going to end up in this place.
You are exposing your argument in a very eloquent way but you are 100% wrong. Grief scam is good against every cascade deck except for rhinos and thats the reason why the deck was created because meta was all about cascade and no one could midrange anymore. Its a fact that rakdos scam and monoB are bad against midrange decks and those tend to amass cards and 2x1 not dump hand as soon as possible which is the tendency your are trying to convince anyone here. Deep inside yourself you are just simply complaining because grief fury scam were good about your pet deck. No objective arguments as well. You are speaking about how grief scam “makes me feel” but nothing about how it affects tha course of a game. Sadly griefs scam is the police that keeps unfair combo decks in check and modern will need it for the mh3 upcoming unfairness
L take
We had to deal with every simic card drawing one or more cards for how long now. 8-Rack deserves to enjoy its broken toy until some hot garbage value nonsense is printed in MH3. There were years my deck was nigh unplayable. try racking into oko or uro... smallpox tron only to have them top deck mine and drop karn... affinity drawing how many cards?
is it broken? Yup.
should it of been printed? Nope.
Do i feel dirty playing it? In all the right ways.
Watching you mald over grief is never not funny
wizards seems obsessed with making things free or hugely discounted. people love finding ways to cheat things into play (think about it -- the term is "cheat") and wizards is making that style of play sooo easy. very hand-holdy
Fury was a way better ban because people scam fury just for the body, turn 1 4/4 double strike was too fast of a clock and not how they want fury to play out.
Grief is not broken. It takes your entire hand to scam a grief and follow it up with a voidwalker. This is the deck performing at its peak and this always loses to a firespout, a one ring or just 2 bolts while it topdecks worse than most midrange decks.
I don’t play modern but if I did I might mainboard leyline of anticipation and run grief to counter grief haha. Imagine the look on their face when they get an UNO reverse treatment. Guess who has no reanimating cards in hand!? You
Yeah
No shit free spells are inherently a problem
I think we just need a new format thats just Modern the same as it is today but just no modern horizons/lotr cards. imagine that the return of non modern horizon cards decks
My buddy actually has a cube of that it’s super fun
Ironic that a guy that says he loves mill is complaining about formats that people don't like. :D
Orchiish bow master is not a problem in legacy maybe
Bowmasters is the real problem.
Enjoyed the video. Yes, Grief and the playstyle it promotes is unhealthy for Modern. WotC is big dumb. They took away the pro tour and support for tournament grinding has all but collapsed post 2020 and the bat flu electric boogaloo. People play Modern more for fun now at their LGS. So why you making cards to end matches quickly WotC? The Modern community has been split almost right down the middle over MH sets and the crap they have injected into our favorite format. It has not been all upside. As for Fury, my thinking is instead of banning, why not make some curated decklists that are not crazy broken but allow for Fury to still be played like Frog Cannon. Frog Cannon is probably not going to take down any world tournaments, so why not let players still find some use in cards they own instead of outright banning? WotC suffers from severe rigid thinking. It's really lame. Think outside the box mudderflappers!
I would be okay with them limiting in the free elementals down to one.. and make some still playable but not overwhelming
I made an analogy regarding why counterspell is far worse than discard. And I used pizza as the analogy. Discard is taking away the pizza before you have chance to have a bite so you know you aint getting no pizza. Counter spell is you about go take a bite of the pizza and someone slapping it away from your face.
I'd much rather be told im getting no pizza than have it slapped away as I go to take a bite
A counterspell also blanks your entire turn if you tapped out, a discard spell still allows you to do something else on your turn.
@@iankane3732 exactly. Might make one of these videos about how busted counter magic is and how it needs banning 😅
Rackdos scam can use surgical extraction
Ultimately, it's too much value for too little cost with very little downside.
I don't like it all...but didn't we kind of ask for this? Standard sets weren't powerful enough, we wanted shake ups, etc....
It'll get better as long as they don't keep printing cards like The One Ring, which every deck auto includes 4 of....you know "fOr VaLuE"....
No, we didn't want this. Sure, we don't play Standard because of the low power level. But what we wanted from MH was niche cards to make T3 decks playable again. Like Merfolk (which worked, good on them!). But instead we got free spells that completely shape the format, new broken cards that form decks that shape the format and unnecessecary hate cards that just kick decks that are already down (Plague Engineer and Fury for example). Now they need to powercreep the shit out of everyhing to sell the new sets
Gotta love how Modern has driven the price of The One Ring up nearly 40$ in 3.5 months.
Explain to me again why I shouldn’t be cheering Modern’s terminal illness?
Personally, I’m honestly having a hard time thinking of a free spell that actually makes the game more enjoyable. You can play around things which cost with attention to your opponents resources.
Evoke cards? They’ve got the nuts or they don’t. No skill interaction, whatsoever, and worse, the cards always end up expensive, so even more advantaging of the enfranchised.
Finally somebody that understands why discarding is so much worse than countering, you at least get the opportunity to work around counterspells, discard spells not so much
It comes with a 4.3 body on t1. You don't reduce the game to such a simplified state on t1. There is no counterspell that is efficient at setting up a win as grief
@@soup8786sound like you need to win the coin flip. Get good and go first.
I think modern is literally at the edge of saying 'Counterspell cost too much for what it does'. If there is another prismatic ending/leyline binding level removal blue white control might even cut it. Discard spells have always been better
Thought seize is 1 mana counterspell. Grief is force of will
Feels like we play different games
@@storeblaa Counterspell is only played in one meta deck which is murktide and the next deck that plays counterspell is blue white control right? What I am saying is that counterspell is starting to become the worst/least desired removal in the deck. We are about to be in 1 or zero cost removal meta, and its crazy that the once banned counterspell almost doesnt hold up in modern anymore
@@MrWaves-oj9ge I see your point but I don't think it's becoming that undesirable, it is sadly often to slow as modern is very fast these days, but again we won't get a counterspell ever for 1 mana, so cs is still the best in what it does of removing any threat on the stack the opponent has spent mana on
I think its more the meta doesn't allow for counterspell much, more so then it being bad, had it been that bad then murk probably wouldn't play 4 as its all about tempo
@@storeblaa when you say we won't get a 1 mana counter spell you mean we won't get an unrestricted 1 mana counterspell.
Like 1 mana deal with any non land permanent technically doesn't exist but also this is leyline binding
TL;DR discard is fine, free spells are bad.
When asking whether I get a discarded or countered. Discard. One’s a preemptive answer vs an answer. I thought seize you on the play. Nothing prevents you from drawing another copy. Meanwhile you invest all your mana in a play and someone counters it if you don’t have follow up your opponents gonna have a free turn to set up and you lose tempo. Like discard is just essentially a preemptive counter spell. Also you keep talking about cascade like it’s relevant to the format. Where scam is tier 1 alongside amulet titan, esper reanimator, zoo and tron. This is a very healthy meta game. Where there’s a good amount of decks to consider having to face. Also do you not just run thought seize in mill. Like take out the fatal push so your crab lives past turn 1
Cascade is very relevant what are you talking about
So 1 I should have been specific when I said cascade I was referring to when they hit rhinos. And looking back at it domain rhinos is not even the best domain deck and living end is the easiest shit to side against. So no cascade decks aren’t relevant till they get more power they were both hit when they banned violent outburst, and not being able to cascade on your opponents turn really affects the speed of that deck.
@otakuamerican5190 cascade deck won the NRG 10k like a couple of weeks ago. How much more relevant do you want?
Which one I can’t find it last nrg was pioneer for the 10k you talking the 5 k or the team event
@otakuamerican5190 nah there was a modern event as well, the girl who won was also in teams final unless there was another one last week or so
I really think the MH2 elementals need to just be taken off the table entirely. They're atrocious to play against
I remember pulling grief and thinking it is the worst evoke elemental of all five.
that was fury. everyone knew grief was busted from the get go.
Subtlety was definitely the worse..its just now picked up some steam
I've been telling people that Grief is the real problem in the Rakdos Scam deck. Good to see Fury banned but tbh I would've loved to see Grief go along with it.
Good Grief…
Dude, everything that is strong against mill you make a complain. Grief is important to the meta to attack decks in greedy combos such as amulet. The meta is very well balanced after outburst ban and everyone that I talk about it feels the same. Grief is not a problem, at least not for the meta. PS: I'm a mill player as you
FrEe SpElLs ArEnT a PrObLeM
@@Enja_Nearit WAS a problem but definitely some are needed at this point lol …. Don’t know if your being sarcastic
Grief in and of itself isn't the problem. It's being able to bounce it and play it twice for basically a few cards and one mana.
I think that grief is a little too strong...
And I'll look at the formula of why land destruction isn't printed anymore...
When you remove two cards out of your opponent's opening. 7. It pretty much feels like you're making your opponent where they can't play the game...
I don't know how you think that's fair or enjoyable to play against... But it is definitely a matchup that I do not enjoy.
Most of the other matchups I at least enjoy whether I win or lose.
Anytime I play against that... If they turn one grief me and have a not dead after all. I just don't enjoy the rest of my game cuz I never get to play anything to catch up.
A free creature that has menace and is 3/2 and will be out on the battlefield turn one or maybe even two out if you get the nut draw is broken. Grief wins games easily because of this alongside bringing it back from the battlefield. Grief turn 1s are also miserable to play against, because its not like control which requires deck knowledge and skill to play well. If you get the turn one Scam plays and you dont win you're honestly just a terrible mtg player.
So the root of the issue is free casting.
OG 8-rack is the only way to go
Grief graped your hand fury shit on creatures
🍼Here take this 😂
Modern horizon 3 is eldrazi game again
woke gen problem
modern horizons, eldraine and such sets were the reason that i moved on to flesh and blood
Free spell are killing modern, justo remember the pirexian spells, elementales, into the story ...
I personally think they should’ve banned grief instead of fury
Thoughtseize > Grief
I love grief. I love watching my opponent mulligan to the very specific spell they need and griefing them out of their gameplan.
You think grief sucks just wait till death and taxes starts pitching kaldra to the labyrinth and playing a turn one winter moon. Then casting Leon in arbiter and starts ghost quartering volatile vaulting your one land that untaps, basically becoming a rishportwasteland
Grief is the problem in modern ok i guess it not amulet or tron or leyline scone no it definitely grief give me a break yeah it sucks when it happens to you but it there to keep busted combo decks in check
Leave grief alone.....she is just gaining value in my binder..